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,{"start":2520.646,"end":2537.203,"text":"比前年還少,花得少但是呢,他碳排放比增加,增加了一點點那發電的量沒那麼多但是呢,排碳量更大,那是為什麼?"},{"start":2539.777,"end":2567.059,"text":"就是石化用得多天然氣用得多嗎?是不是?部長對其實報告委員天然氣它的排炭係數大概就沒了一半左右那目前全世界當然都是共識就是要把化石燃料能夠在2050年能夠把它transition away就是過度的把它轉移掉那目前國際上也都認知這個天然氣算是一個橋接是一個過渡型的一種能源所以它等於是說在我們天然氣還"},{"start":2567.999,"end":2583.159,"text":"在生能源還沒有上來之前他是一個過渡型的能源希望2050年可以把它移除掉好那排碳民間環保團體建議每公噸收費500元那台電一年要徵收450億有這個事情嗎?"},{"start":2584.855,"end":2609.189,"text":"對,對。"},{"start":2610.18,"end":2637.318,"text":"台電現在所以你的意思就是說我們估計的環團估計的是450那事實上可能50億就夠了你的意思是怎樣如果說當然這個要看碳費審議會定義的價錢那我其實曾經有私底下算過如果台電要徵收這個碳費可能是300塊當然這個要看碳費審議會定我自己私下算大概其實就對碳費如果他變成是額外的附加費用的話只有0.0幾塊可能就那麼點而已"},{"start":2640.34,"end":2667.111,"text":"我們環境部開了兩次會議好像也還沒有結果嗎?是不是?正在進行當中因為其實我們的委員他的組成是非常的多元所以要讓大家的意見能夠收斂那現在還正在收斂當中那台電現在的財務狀況每年都要撥補一兩千億那如果再收攤會是不是電費大家最關心又要漲電費半十月份又要漲電費會不會?"},{"start":2668.576,"end":2695.329,"text":"我個人認為其實轉型第一個是臺電他本身也很努力在做減碳的動作如果他的減碳計畫符合我們的這個減量的這個標準自主減量的標準的話他可以有一些折扣的所以目前我們預期這個如果臺電勝算來報告的話他有減量那麼的多的話其實比較不會受到一些影響好那我再看核電廠研議要全民同意才可能這是你講的是不是"},{"start":2696.274,"end":2719.251,"text":"報告委員其實這件事情其實是我接受訪問我前面講了很多我的意思就是說很多人有不一樣的意見我是覺得是說有些國家大概7比3或是8比2像芬蘭芬蘭那個國家我也去過他們的共識很高那我是提醒就是說我們要是5比5或6比4其實這樣的話上次公投同意何能研議的有580幾萬"},{"start":2721.993,"end":2749.675,"text":"幾萬票然後不同意的是410幾差了將近180十萬票那個時候已經出來但是民進黨政府他就說不幹那下一張這個歐美轉向用核能來簡單核能是不是利能你不同意可能大家不同的意見那布魯塞爾他的結論就是說在往後的20年核能電廠要增加一倍"},{"start":2750.543,"end":2752.29,"text":"那我們河山場那邊的鄉親"},{"start":2755.692,"end":2780.972,"text":"四個鄉鎮 四個鄉鎮的民意代表、主席還有鄉鎮長他們都同意原意啦所以你說全民要同意,人家就同意啦我自己做的民調差不多76%是同意但是他們要求的是回饋還有交通還有他們的醫療要有保障"},{"start":2781.946,"end":2789.753,"text":"所以你要愛跟你要愛可能不一樣那這個何山長我在那邊出聲在那邊這樣一直一直一起起來齁"},{"start":2791.448,"end":2813.379,"text":"河山場我看它30年來沒有發生過重大的什麼事情都是颱風大颱風來跳跳墊每年的評比現在世界正在運作的核反應爐450幾座每年的評比都蠻前面的那河山場我常常去看"},{"start":2814.468,"end":2842.478,"text":"那河山場離我們臺中市是237公里然後離對岸的福清,福清電廠我也去看過164公里,直線地址所以對話出事,你又要死啦那如果可以就去看抗爭也可以有辦法我不知道所以我們要看一個核能應該是電啦,分配跟佈局各有不同的意見"},{"start":2844.147,"end":2871.232,"text":"好,下一張,這下一張,這個是光電,這是要車上的,冰凍人,這裡有冰凍人,不怕手這個是最美麗的天際線,蘇貞昌長的,前面一張,你看看有這樣把整個沙坪都擦光光,然後蓋到亂七八糟,你如果要去看你就自己去看,看著你就會脫皮啦"},{"start":2873.972,"end":2899.474,"text":"整片就這樣就這樣那這個能產生多少電我跟部長報告一下一米啦一米你知道嗎一公頃左右一米差不多一年產生130萬度 有沒有多嗎所以一個河山場要幾個GW"},{"start":2903.251,"end":2924.459,"text":"所以你要看污染我是一直想你光天天把這個山河都蓋住了台灣太小啦你要像戈壁啦、內蒙古啦那個地方根本鳥無人煙的你要怎麼蓋 你知道為什麼嗎加州沙漠的地方那你產生的電都用不完我們台灣這麼小"},{"start":2926.192,"end":2926.352,"text":"來 下一張"},{"start":2948.798,"end":2960.856,"text":"這更糟糕這個是內埔鄉老皮農場就平坑道旁邊這一片台農的地700多公頃部長你知不知道我知道我看要擺一個考察我們做得來好可以"},{"start":2962.711,"end":2981.967,"text":"現在要把7百多公頃用4百多公頃蓋關電板然後種的茶園因為不賺錢所以現在我知道是農業部還沒有同意我不曉得環境部同意了沒有能源局同意了沒有這個要慎重考慮"},{"start":2983.408,"end":3010.145,"text":"能產生多少電?才400枚400枚沒有多少電所以不要再去養那些光電業者現在要想好現在立法院不像以前一研討隨便你們搞一搞就可以同意不可能的事情早上把你打死就有所以我們要對子孫來交代再來"},{"start":3012.266,"end":3037.105,"text":"這個就是高雄八五大樓北大五、南大五、屏東人在叫我那是差不多就一年三八六十五天齁我看要看得到的可能沒有30天這個是平常的空屋我們以為是多漂亮的山嵐之氣齁結果都是空屋這是屏東的日常尤其是泰伍、超洲那一帶下一張"},{"start":3039.611,"end":3047.558,"text":"全球 欸上上一張 中和、麥寮、新達港、中鋼 你剛剛講的就是你要減少空汙嘛 這個怎麼辦 部長"},{"start":3050.78,"end":3076.408,"text":"這個的部分其實首先要以煤轉氣那這個氣會有一個過度的時間那我個人是認為還是要從這個全力發展綠能的角度來進行那剛剛委員提到屏東的這個問題我剛剛早上特別查了屏東大概1.3GW左右大概在屏東土地面積的大概是0.4%那未來我們環境部會加強這個所謂的生態環境的減和特別是敏感的地帶或是勢力我們會全力的減和"},{"start":3077.148,"end":3101.35,"text":"他比較嚴重的就是這裡一塊、那裡一塊、這裡一塊都好像在打歌一樣啦你如果要就一片衝我好還要吃一塊、那一塊還要空水泥、吞酒頭那個要怎麼回復啊?胡說八道我每天都在跑機場根本不可能的事情所以這個我們再慢慢的來討論你看,高這屏東,這樣啦"},{"start":3103.78,"end":3125.232,"text":"三分之一的污染源來自高雄,高雄6000多家工廠,我們屏東才1000家,結果全部都飛到這裡來,你的空污費對屏東也不太好,你的水污費對屏東也不太好,現在藥又給你堆了,好嗎?好,最後一個,醫院,你們有沒有要找衛福部談醫院的碳排?"},{"start":3125.962,"end":3147.859,"text":"我個人最近有跟邱副部長有來談這個問題因為醫院大概佔4到5%對啊4到5%阿你要怎麼給醫療院所要怎麼給他們輔導啊要怎麼排檔能減少啊醫療院所因為開刀啊什麼的消毒那個一定是高的嘛全球都是4到5嘛差不多這樣"},{"start":3149.54,"end":3150.942,"text":"接下來請林岳晴委員發言"},{"start":3180.221,"end":3181.605,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":3186.598,"end":3214.878,"text":"委員早部長早歡迎彭部長來到我們中央行政部門服務這是一個很難得的機會我跟你都來自民間我相信在民間我們都是有理想抱負希望為社會來做貢獻那如今進入到中央我們都是肩負人民的請託然後一定要把事情做好那時時刻刻要戰戰兢兢部長你同意嗎非常同意"},{"start":3216.055,"end":3240.714,"text":"那部長我今天有三個問題要來跟您請教如果你的幕僚夠仔細的話應該會跟你報告過去這半年來我們委員們質詢的內容是什麼那如果沒有的話我就提三個考古題都是半年來民眾非常關心有關環境部業務的進度再請部長逐一來做回覆部長第一題判廢"},{"start":3247.124,"end":3274.388,"text":"這個國人比較關心的程度從民生到工業而且更大的問題是在於前幾天不知道有沒有看報紙是目前我們國人罹患肺癌率高過於吸菸所以我們要先針對環境部4月29日預告的碳費的那個收費辦法來進行討論第一個請問部長碳費你的定價最快何時公布"},{"start":3275.636,"end":3300.723,"text":"目前攤費審議委員會正在進行因為他們要考慮到我們所謂的物價等等的這個因素目前攤費審議委員會已經有一些共識了嗎這個部分目前來說的話正在收斂當中所以未來我們會我又特別請我們的因為主席是我們的師次他會加速來進行那最快會是什麼時候委員是不是可以請師次來一個報告"},{"start":3305.102,"end":3320.557,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們大概現在在6月底7月初會再召開費率審議會那在這一次的費率審議會我們已經幕僚在開始計算各種不同的費率方案會供委員們討論我說大概最快什麼時候可能沒辦法很明確的給委員一個答覆因為我們還要看"},{"start":3326.734,"end":3340.487,"text":"這個下一次開會的情形如果下次還是會持續問是要建樹那部長根據草案第5條有增加2.5萬噸的扣除額在我3月14號質詢的時候我就強烈質疑這2.5萬噸的扣除額"},{"start":3343.73,"end":3364.057,"text":"只會涵蓋4949的全國的排碳量請問環境部有考量嗎目前這個其實也要考量到這個高碳排的這個洩漏的這個係數那其實這個也是參考我們鄰近的國家例如說新加坡或是日本他們有的一個做法不過這個還是要到這個碳費審議委員會他們裡面來討論這樣的一個內容"},{"start":3366.918,"end":3368.479,"text":"根據草案第6條,我們透過碳洩漏風險係數值的0.21G是什麼?"},{"start":3375.413,"end":3402.806,"text":"目前這個事實上我們的團隊有參考例如說新加坡、韓國還有日本甚至歐盟的相關的係數那是不是意味著未來台灣碳費從打兩折開始這個不會因為其實報告委員其實這個碳定價它是一個新的經營的模式很多的大的企業我必須跟委員報告我來自民間大的企業早就上路了而且它的碳費比超過300塊有的是好幾千塊"},{"start":3403.406,"end":3423.115,"text":"這就是我很擔心的,因為已經設置2.5萬噸的扣除而又增加打折的機制的話我要問這真的是從能夠達到我們的減碳效果嗎?因為部長目前草案公佈後環境部有掌握可以掌控到全國多少的比例的排碳"},{"start":3423.803,"end":3441.224,"text":"目前這樣的比例大概是500多家然後大概是50%的排碳所以我說碳費只是一部分然後我們未來的我期待的這個費率應該是持續的像一個協力型的之後的往上會越來越高五月初環境部的新聞有說明未來我們的"},{"start":3442.886,"end":3455.318,"text":"獲得那個門檻會從2.5萬噸那個陸續降到1萬噸請問有期程規劃嗎?有規劃期程嗎?目前是還沒有就是有朝這個方向規劃但是時間點還沒有出來還是一樣期待齁盡快齁不是"},{"start":3459.062,"end":3479.678,"text":"有2.5萬噸的扣除了真的就會讓我們覺得事實上是在玩假球那上攤費呢上一次我在3月27號在質詢的時候就有提到果然如我所料那時候我就提到我身邊的友人跟親人去買房子的時候都會讓仲介都會講說因為攤費要漲的話那房價就隨著漲果然沒有錯5月17號報導業者就直接大啦啦的說了"},{"start":3486.383,"end":3509.986,"text":"碳費開徵了所以大家要預期的心理所以使得導致我們大家都在追著這個房價已經造成國內很大負擔了所以部長是不是可以成立一個聯合稽查小組去了解是否有不肖的業者利用我們的碳費來惡意哄抬價格來造成我們的民間的一些困擾"},{"start":3511.289,"end":3535.752,"text":"報告委員其實我自己也去看過房子真的有的確有這個情形喊到大概漲5然後10%左右那基本上呢現在是還沒有開始徵收這些東西這個也不可能馬上就會存在而且呢我們有算過最多最多如果收到300塊的話加上折扣其實是不到1%是可不可以成立一個聯合機場小組去做這些事情否則的話民眾沒有從更多的訊息去知道的話"},{"start":3536.192,"end":3545.423,"text":"很容易就會被不肖的業者去在烘台價錢然後造成本來房價已經夠高了結果造成房價一直往上堆疊"},{"start":3546.035,"end":3573.107,"text":"好,謝謝委員,我這個部分我會多進行公開的宣導,宣張民眾知道那至於要不要集合小組,我再請我們的部內的同仁再研議一下,再跟委員做報告好,所以是不是一周內給我答覆部長第二題來了,這也是萬年考古題關於檢索,環境部到底想清楚了沒,所以部長想有兩題要請教我看部長受訪表示,未來臺北市、尼西亞夜市可能成為第一個禁用"},{"start":3573.507,"end":3582.21,"text":"．"},{"start":3583.598,"end":3610.834,"text":"進塑膠袋的時程是什麼是否會不會先設置示範區目前我的觀察就是說其實現在國人用仰賴每天生活需要塑膠袋的比例真的太高了那當然要生活習慣的改變但是傳統市場或是小市攤其實這樣的要改變非常的困難所以我會嘗試說我們希望找一個很好的示範點像寧夏夜市本身就很環保我們就找他來但是我們要慢慢慢慢的來進行"},{"start":3611.374,"end":3638.422,"text":"其實上次我也有提過就是說不是只有棍子事實上可能胡蘿蔔也要準備好所以是不是有沒有對於積極配合的商家我們有沒有相關減稅補貼政策好這個部分實際上我可不可以請我們的署長來跟委員報告目前這邊我們是想要用一個評比的方式然後把好的這個案例把它拿出來讓大家來這個做一個參考是"},{"start":3640.12,"end":3653.846,"text":"如果只是口頭上獎勵的話我覺得是不太夠的其他的配套我覺得請環境部還是要去想因為畢竟它事實上是最難的第三題也就是最後的一題也就是我過去一直關心的問題臺灣的熱色這幾年都說要減量"},{"start":3657.187,"end":3681.35,"text":"結果越減越多所以請問部長目前雙北的隨帶徵收的政策也證明了它事實上是的確比較有效的垃圾減量的方法可不同縣市推動有遭遇到不同的一些類型的困難請問環境部針對目前的垃圾減量推動隨帶徵收有沒有廣求各界的看法跟做法"},{"start":3681.81,"end":3703.613,"text":"有的這個部分我們其實補助了很多的縣市他們來嘗試進行這樣隨帶徵收那我們做這個環境部有進行一些補助但是有些呢他的習慣的改變不容易所以不一樣的結果但是我們未來呢會加大來鼓勵他們能夠來進行這樣的方式因為隨帶徵收的減量的效果的確是比一般的水水費徵收來得好很多"},{"start":3704.213,"end":3723.209,"text":"是,那也希望你們加快腳步齁。那第二個就是上次我質詢的時候我就提到因為這幾年垃圾文化爐的那個稅收、修導致一堆垃圾暫時滿出來齁那請問部長對於全國那個垃圾無處可去中央做了什麼?"},{"start":3723.989,"end":3743.464,"text":"目前我們的現在正在焚化爐都在進行整改當中預計未來兩三年內就會逐步的完成然後現在有些的確是放在這個掩埋場裡面做處理但是未來等到這個整改完成之後這個容量可以把我們現在這個稍微這個佔氣的這個地方可以進行一個消除所以目前來規劃來說的話是沒有問題的會逐步的減少"},{"start":3748.063,"end":3748.943,"text":"謝謝林月晴委員接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":3783.312,"end":3810.273,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝委員部長請彭部長部長你好感謝聽說您昨天有到我們辦公室拜訪謝謝謝謝你的歷齡可是我們昨天蠻忙的所以我們下次可以再另外約時間沒問題沒問題部長請問您有看賴總統的就職演說嗎有我在坐在這個旁邊附近"},{"start":3812.028,"end":3831.04,"text":"那你知道就職演說啊全文大概是5300個字你知道提到環境啊永續跟你相關的部分有多少篇幅嗎近鄰的部分談到兩次對沒錯兩次但是跟環境部相關的業務啊只有30個字"},{"start":3832.915,"end":3833.095,"text":"下一張"},{"start":3858.569,"end":3885.698,"text":"剛剛林玉琴委員有提到過去半年您都有複習嘛所以過去半年呢許多的委員最重視的就是碳費啊或者是資源啊以及光電啊環評啊等等的能源我也想知道說您在這個淨零減碳做最大努力這是您受訪的時候提到的想請問您的施政施政的規劃為何"},{"start":3887.398,"end":3887.858,"text":"我們會支持你謝謝"},{"start":3915.872,"end":3939.444,"text":"我跟前任的部長常常聊到啦他認為他很無力也很無助這跟你們的預算應該也有相關吧希望委員多支持本席的責任之一也是協助您爭取您最大的資源好嗎好謝謝國發會呢在我們電動機車的部分訂出了一個目標他希望在"},{"start":3942.334,"end":3948.67,"text":"2030年、2035年、2040年部長您知道要達到多少比例的新售比嗎?"},{"start":3949.625,"end":3975.017,"text":"目前這個其實我個人我不能說我個人就是說其實還是需要蓋更積極一點其實在很多先進國家燃油汽車可能2030年最快的2030年都要必須解除但是我們臺灣畢竟環境特殊所以我個人是支持能夠提早進行轉型這是最重要的所以電動機車的部分其實我認為還有一些調整的空間您知道設定的目標是幾%嗎預計到2040年可以到零"},{"start":3979.622,"end":3981.825,"text":"2030年新售比到35%2035年70%2040年100%那你知道現在是多少嗎現在我可能數字我要再查一下"},{"start":3995.746,"end":4020.813,"text":"現在只有12所以我們距離目標還有一大段的距離環境部對於我們的年輕人心中是非常有感的因為大部分是騎機車的另外他們出門也會需要帶環保杯自備的餐具等等等等還有現在很多的時尚都是用循環的塑料循環的衣服等等回收再製作的"},{"start":4021.793,"end":4050.135,"text":"所以您會覺得這個12%一直到我們2030年35%還有一大段的路要走問題是出在哪裡我認為這個就是誘因還不夠然後相關的這個補助的措施或是它的這個充電的這個設備其實也還不大然後另外一個是價位的問題所以這個部分我會未來在內閣的會議因為這個部分牽涉到好幾個部會我會在內閣會議裡面討論到近年的議題的時候特別提醒"},{"start":4051.513,"end":4075.523,"text":"看一下之前我已經問過了環境部有制定過空法裡面的淘汰二行程機車及新購電動二輪車的補助方法發放新購的獎勵金吊詭的是我們運具轉型尚未達標這個補助就逐年遞減甚至在2020年全面取消"},{"start":4077.011,"end":4105.695,"text":"不禁讓我們質疑說你是如何看待自身在推動電動運具轉型的角色這個是因為你剛才講的啊你說你覺得補助非常重要但你看我們不但是逐年遞減而且補助是越來越少報告委員其實因為空屋費過去這幾年為了要好好的改善空屋所以在柴油車的部分花了很多錢所以我記得是說這個有幾年的這個空屋費是明顯不足的所以需要未來委員大力的支持"},{"start":4106.653,"end":4133.573,"text":"還有另外啊本席也要提醒你在2023年我們創了新低使用這個大眾運輸系統所以您剛剛有說到電動運具的轉型可是為什麼你這個大眾運輸系統密度如果沒有做夠的話其實大家是不會去使用它的因此機車在現代人的生活中還是非常的重要所以來補助機車這個部分是沒有辦法缺少的好謝謝下一張"},{"start":4137.349,"end":4153.877,"text":"好,如何補貼可以讓民眾有感我們移動的污染源、空污、氣候變遷、能源一體息息相關但是上一任的部長有提到說這個經濟部呢他們有提出獎勵計畫可是你們跟經濟部是不是連結不夠深"},{"start":4156.689,"end":4167.988,"text":"報告部委員這個其實我未來會加強這個會加強這個我知道這個你有發現問題了大概知道我會努力來加強好那我們看一下下一張"},{"start":4170.154,"end":4195.356,"text":"所以之前部長告訴我的是前任部長他說這個是一個大災問如果他沒有跟經濟部可以配合得很好的話各項政策應該要朝哪個方向來進行他沒有辦法讓民眾還有業者可以清楚的明瞭因此我們現在也很積極的想要協助大家因此我還是希望你可以重視年輕人騎機車的比例非常的高下一張"},{"start":4197.672,"end":4219.088,"text":"2021��2021年統計有八成的民眾表態支持環境部可以入縣本席也想請教部長是不是支持這樣子的想法基本上環境對於我們這個所有的年輕人或是下一世代好的環境才有我們生存的空間也才能健康台灣所以我支持我個人是支持這樣的一個看法能夠讓大家能夠更重視"},{"start":4220.365,"end":4241.021,"text":"聯合國已經把環境權納入基本的人權而我們在野黨早就在近幾年表示我們是支持的可是你會覺得執政黨的態度蠻模糊的嗎目前我還沒有接觸到這方面的是不是要入縣的這個議題但是我個人從我一個過去從事環境的理念來說的話能夠越高的支持基本上就可以更多的認同"},{"start":4243.241,"end":4256.961,"text":"謝謝,我相信環境部長的支持對於台灣未來我們這樣子的議題保護阿等等相關政策走向是非常非常非常正面的不過你也知道這個非常困難阿對所以我們可以一起來努力下一張"},{"start":4258.726,"end":4286.49,"text":"剛剛蘇青雄委員有提到這個光電板你應該知道說環射減核似乎不太需要經過你們對不對?能源署那邊所以剛講到的問題我們可以看到我們52公頃的高爾夫球場可能都需要環屏但是他如果散落的去架設1117公頃的光電板卻什麼都不需要做"},{"start":4287.19,"end":4311.245,"text":"那上次上一任的部長也說他是對於這個很無奈哪您覺得呢目前我們的部分對於這種所謂敏感地區或是失地或是重要的這個保留區其實我們都新我們目前我們師長有定義一個草案我們會在研議當中你有自己到基層看過這樣子的有的確有些部分過去發展的太快有的確是有一些亂象"},{"start":4313.19,"end":4324.889,"text":"對 所以有沒有辦法在一週內可以提出把屋頂型的光電板納入環評來保護臺灣的自然生態的報告委員我可以請我們負責的市長來回應嗎"},{"start":4328.713,"end":4351.195,"text":"跟委員報告那個目前有關屋頂型的這個還是要由能源署那邊進行有關這一些所謂的景觀或生態上面的一些的一個檢核啦那我們環境部大概會比較朝向就是一些敏感的地區或者是剛剛委員所提到的那個比較大規模的我知道因為敏感的是濕地"},{"start":4352.017,"end":4368.469,"text":"我們現在要把它擴大 這個也要開始納入了 不是我們要特別目前是失地但是未來要把那個比較其他的像位在一些敏感區位像野生動物國家公園那以及像山坡地的這個部分"},{"start":4369.209,"end":4390.458,"text":"他的一個相關的規模納進去我們的環評裡面這是我們現在在做的那上次委員也有提案就是說我們的這個草案預計是在下個月6月底前我們會來做預告這個我們現在都在進行中好好那我們之後就期待你的草案然後希望可以再給你們更好的建議好謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":4395.336,"end":4396.117,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。部長。"},{"start":4411.264,"end":4425.689,"text":"部長首先先恭喜那這個也是責任的開始因為環境部的業務真的是涵蓋非常非常的廣那我今天就是就我們部長剛剛這個報告的部分其實我剛剛聽到一個"},{"start":4427.71,"end":4439.686,"text":"部長會去關心就是說這個淹地都丟在這個水溝裡面本席在基層其實也都常常看到這樣的一個狀況那尤其是在立法院其實也是有這樣的狀況在我們在"},{"start":4443.351,"end":4456.758,"text":"好幾個會期之前我在這個質詢台也有特別提到吸煙的這個區域是不是可以有一個固定的一個地方或者是說吸煙室這個其實我覺得都可以去考慮那當然"},{"start":4459.099,"end":4479.675,"text":"不只是這個其實還有很多需要去做的那另外我想請教就是說部長中部地區剛剛蘇委員也有提到這個屏東地區的空汙也嚴重那我想請教就是說中部地區北有這個火力發電廠南有六清那一到冬天的時候其實整個"},{"start":4480.316,"end":4498.063,"text":"﹚"},{"start":4499.124,"end":4515.264,"text":"謝謝委員 中部的空窩呢 因為我本身在中部長大 其實我每次坐高鐵的時候 這個景象就一直常常看到 那中部呢 其實因為他的大氣非常的穩定 所以他其實他的條件跟北部跟南部都不一樣 那未來呢 其實短期內 其實未來 因為我們NASA的飛機剛飛過"},{"start":4516.766,"end":4542.461,"text":"可能在未來這幾個月內對於我們中部還有南部的空污的成因有一個另外一種角度的了解我希望他們可以解決我們一些問題那另外一個控制污染源是最重要的他固定污染源那當然大家熟知的可能有幾個大煙囪那個目前我們是要求一直他持續的減量那但是還有一些移動污染源或是所謂益善源其實包含了民眾的交通或是生活其實都要一直減量那這個我們會來努力"},{"start":4544.622,"end":4560.268,"text":"總是要設定一個目標,就是說未來知道中部的污染源是什麼,那了解原因之後總是要設定一個目標要怎麼去解決。我覺得這個是中部地區民眾時常在抱怨的,就是說空污的這個議題。"},{"start":4561.388,"end":4562.369,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":4580.581,"end":4582.282,"text":"獲得3D跨國空氣污染實驗請教部長除了NASA有這樣的"},{"start":4609.979,"end":4628.998,"text":"這個飛機來做這個空氣污染的這個實驗那未來我們自己本身就是環境部自己本身你們要怎麼做有沒有一個比較具體的一個方案包圍兩個部分一個是這個NASA的飛機呢真的非常難得那希望他這次可以解決一些問題那未來我們跟美國台美的合作會更大的強化"},{"start":4629.819,"end":4656.784,"text":"現在包含的整個垂直面、無人機等等我們都有合作會持續來進行那也希望可以跟從NASA的這個飛機來台灣可以找到一些初步的原因那另外一個呢是委員提到的數位轉型其實數位轉型在民間很多的產業都一直積極在做了那數位轉型呢可以幫助我們決策效率更快也可以讓民眾更了解那這個也就是我觀察到的原因所以其實在部內我有跟我們同仁講我們開始要上一些數位轉型的課程"},{"start":4657.344,"end":4684.87,"text":"甚至人工智慧的課程不管我們的主管在座的主管或是我們的同仁都要一起來學習這個是國人必須要做的事情所以我們希望說新的部長來總是要有一些新的做法新的氣象那部長之前也有特別提到就是說目前這個環境部也有預告就是空氣品質的這些標準那也預告說會加嚴那我想請教部長就是說剛我有特別提到中部地區域的這個空氣污染那其實應該全台灣"},{"start":4685.61,"end":4686.191,"text":"對,所以你要好好做"},{"start":4701.264,"end":4718.149,"text":"對希望PM2.5能夠再降低再降低但是我也跟我們同仁討論說我們可以什麼時候做到現在正在進行各式各樣的模擬我們要以先做得到然後一個理想還有跟做得到兩個方式來進行所以這個到時候我們有成果一定會跟再跟委員報告是"},{"start":4720.01,"end":4723.734,"text":"從這個會期一開始大家就在講課徵碳費之前薛部長也有提到我想請教這個碳費的政策就是說我們什麼時候要制定"},{"start":4744.654,"end":4760.745,"text":"總是新的部長上來之後針對這一部分因為地方的這個中小企業一般的企業其實都非常的關心因為這個都會影響到他們的經營方式那我想請教部長未來我們這個課真的這個碳費你們期程是什麼"},{"start":4761.465,"end":4777.888,"text":"那當然就是說要有棒子也有蘿蔔我們講的就是說要雙管齊下那當然我們另外一方面也希望說那是不是也有這一個可以有負稅抵減的一個方式我想請教部長是未來你進來"},{"start":4779.25,"end":4793.125,"text":"這個環境部之後那應該這個也是要有一個跨部會的合作那我希望說針對這部分是不是可以提出你自己目前想要做的我們環境部目前可以做那也想要做的一個這個目標"},{"start":4794.286,"end":4819.4,"text":"報告委員其實我們目前的碳費是針對大概500家所謂的製造業還有電力業來進行這個碳費的徵收所以中小企業真的不用太過的焦慮一步一步的來設定計畫就可以所以我必須在這邊喊話中小企業真的不要過度焦慮過度焦慮就容易製造一些新的問題出現所以真的不要焦慮那大的企業呢其實現在前面的企業在做但是我個人會關注的就是說有些比較傳統的產業該怎麼辦"},{"start":4821.621,"end":4847.515,"text":"因為他可能一收的話他其實他本身就是很為力的這個部分我們會跟跨部會來進行協調這個就是現在碳費必須要更積極的原因那碳費來說的話他只是碳定價的一個工具而已還有別的工具那我個人認為是我們應該剛剛委員說的蘿蔔我們在哪裡那這個呢有的是收稅有的是發一個菜券所以我們現在正在了解當中也希望可以進行跨部會的協調來促成這個"},{"start":4848.676,"end":4875.973,"text":"我們看到說美國跟日本在這方面好像也做得還不錯那是不是有可能朝著這個方向就是說氣候再捲這樣的一個方向或者是說我剛剛講的這個負稅的抵減我覺得對於一般的這個中小企業或者是一般的企業其實負稅的抵減對他們是更大的誘因所以我覺得說未來可能環境部針對這一部分應該也要有一個跨部會的去會議那要怎麼"},{"start":4876.493,"end":4880.355,"text":"對,報告委員其實這個減碳是一個動作那個都是我們的工具所以碳費只是其中之一那我們未來會積極的從這樣的角度跟跨部會來進行協調"},{"start":4895.205,"end":4920.532,"text":"是,好,那部長今天算是第一次到立法院委員會來做一個報告那我們希望,其實所有的委員真的對你賦予很大的期待因為時常在這個民間也看到你有很多的這個發表那當然就是說有你的這個目標那我希望說可以帶領我們環境部不論是在數位轉型或者是未來在很多的這個議題上面"},{"start":4921.932,"end":4933.817,"text":"能夠有更好的一個做法,讓我們的這個環境能夠更好。好,謝謝委員支持,謝謝。好,謝謝我們的黃委員的發言。接下來請黃正旭委員發言。謝謝主席。有請彭部長。好,部長。"},{"start":4956.015,"end":4971.532,"text":"臺灣本來就是福爾摩沙美麗之島那期待在歷任的部長還有部長繼續領導之下讓臺灣的環境可以維持讓我們的世世代代的子孫都可以生活在美麗之島上面"},{"start":4972.253,"end":5000.149,"text":"那距離當初卓院長在4月19號人事公佈的記者會到現在應該是滿月了吧那當初部長也說會在上任之前要拜訪一些環團請問一下過去這段時間來部長有拜訪了哪一些的環團交換了哪一些意見有沒有初步的一些政策建議可以讓我們先了解"},{"start":5001.251,"end":5017.764,"text":"報告委員其實因為我沒有爭取他們的權益我不方便公開但是我私底下花了很多時間一個一個因為我跟他們講說我還不是部長沒包袱你就盡量跟我說所以我報告委員其實大概例如說很多委員有很多的民間的環團告訴我環評法要來一個總體檢"},{"start":5019.025,"end":5040.74,"text":"公務的標準要再更嚴或是我們的碳費的制度要更快的進行其實我都聽到了所以我報告委員我的包袱真的壓力很大所以我要靠我們的同事我們一起團隊合作來面對我個人認為環團是給我們環境的人是一個很大的激勵我非常的肯定那未來我會持續的跟環團在定期的來溝通"},{"start":5041.963,"end":5060.871,"text":"是,所以有很多的期許當然也背負著很大的壓力不過相信在部長的領導之下應該讓環境部的所有同仁可以一起動起來讓我們的環境可以更好當然大家最關心的還是空屋因為空屋對每天每一個時間我們都在呼吸"},{"start":5061.451,"end":5082.651,"text":"所以空屋的確依照WHO認為說99%的捲口都居住在不是那麼好的空氣品質之下那現在我們的研究都有證實空屋都會造成一些癌症啊或者是心血管一些疾病的風險那剛剛也看到部長的報告其實臺灣在PM2.5就是"},{"start":5085.573,"end":5113.269,"text":"西璇湖維福利這樣的這方面的控制從105年的20的microgram已經減少到112年的13.7那也預計在116年可以降到13這個是整體的這個環境的尤其這個維福利PM2.5這邊的改善的部分我們也知道其實0到35都算是正常範圍超過71當然就非常不好只是他的"},{"start":5113.869,"end":5114.329,"text":"獲得的報告"},{"start":5131.061,"end":5150.847,"text":"很需要再做進步的部分那剛剛部長也提到可能會依照這個不同的縣市做一些不同的一些處理模式那這邊特別請部長再針對於如果我們看到有這樣的分布不平均的時候我們如何能夠去具體的改善當地在這方面的影響"},{"start":5152.109,"end":5169.311,"text":"報告委員其實因為我們現在環境部跟地方環保局都有一個跨縣市的合作所以例如說中部還有南部有不一樣那他們針對一些空污事件的時候都會有一個聯合的一個作業的這個機制來共同來降低這個排放源提醒的機制"},{"start":5169.831,"end":5192.811,"text":"至於說這個源頭減量的部分其實我們在我們的空污房子規劃法案裡面都有相關的進度的安排那我們會持續的來進行但是這個其實最關鍵的就是說要空污減量不是只有固定污染源還有民眾的這個大眾污染源等等生活其實也都有所以這個要一起的這個大家一起減量才有辦法"},{"start":5193.371,"end":5215.089,"text":"是 所以不是只有政府在做相關的努力而已我們希望各界都能夠一起來幫忙對 其實這個報告委員其實這個我個人從民間來我們家裡面這個煮個菜PM2.5說真的有時候會比外面還要來得高很多所以這個其實民眾的生活習慣民眾的瞭解認知如何預防改變這個都很重要"},{"start":5216.974,"end":5221.817,"text":"請問一下部長,我們現在多少以上的AQI就需要發布空品不良細胞廣播?"},{"start":5236.686,"end":5265.488,"text":"報告委員現在是200以上那我其實有注意到這個問題所以我們有請我們的監測師其實研議說在我們環境部的APP我們環境部的APP其實上面對空污的訊息掌握蠻直接所以我有請他說是不是150在我們的APP上面就提醒民眾朋友能夠來注意是因為韓國是150那大家也知道已經設好了報告委員已經設好了就是如果你下載我們環境部的APP空品APP其實150就會提醒你了"},{"start":5266.521,"end":5289.727,"text":"知道目前下載的量或者是相對能夠被民眾所理解跟引用的部分有沒有比較具體的數據可以讓大家瞭解?各位報告因為那個就是在我們環境集中的這個APP裡面那因為部長指示我們已經把只要你在這個區域裡面"},{"start":5291.167,"end":5315.923,"text":"那到這區域範圍裡面空氣品質AQI大概150那它就會提醒但是這個民眾需要去擋開這個提醒的機制那目前呢在我們這個APP有五六十萬人下載那最主要呢因為在空氣那其實是在空位季節會民眾比較關切那西方廣播呢是大概200以上"},{"start":5316.539,"end":5331.572,"text":"是當然這個是季節性會有這樣的問題嘛不過我們有時候也蠻擔心的突發性的空污事件包括我們可以看到前一陣子這個深空大火發生一個很嚴重的意味的飄散"},{"start":5333.089,"end":5350.063,"text":"民眾都感受到了可是我們有沒有辦法及時的去發布對當地來講這是很明顯的一個空無突發性的這些事件那不知道現在環境部這邊有做了哪一些努力需要做如何去配合地方政府的處理"},{"start":5350.623,"end":5370.84,"text":"好,包委員這個包含了例如說深耕大火或南亞塑膠大火其實我們包含了我們的跨私塾都有做一個協調所以我們現在有一個應變的一個機制那任何的一個火災出來往下游擴散的區域配合地方政府提早的預警那都有開始在進行當中所以突發性的部分的話我們改進的非常的多"},{"start":5371.684,"end":5393.776,"text":"好,非常棒因為很多事情就是不怕一萬只怕萬一所以對當地的民眾來講當有突發狀況的時候他需要一個非常迅速而且能夠及時去了解當地發生問題的一些可以如何去幫助自己也可以幫助家人的一些處理模式"},{"start":5394.736,"end":5420.885,"text":"非常感謝部長這邊的努力那往後其實就是要麻煩部長針對這個環評委員組成的多元性因為我們知道其實從環保署的時期第6屆到第14屆的環評委員的名單裡面環境部是因為前幾年才改制所以這個名單相對來講"},{"start":5422.225,"end":5426.301,"text":"只有在第6屆的時候有相對比較多的環團的代表"},{"start":5427.33,"end":5453.151,"text":"事實上部長是可以決定這個每兩年改選一次的這個環團的這個環團委員的名單那這一部分部長不曉得針對於如果對環團代表是屬於這個重要的組成一部分的話那如何能夠讓這些非常熱心而且很願意來協助整體臺灣環境的這個維護的這些環團委員"},{"start":5457.114,"end":5485.707,"text":"能夠有機會進到這個環評委員的委員會裡面去貢獻他們的心理這部分不知道部長有哪一些未來的考量好謝謝委員這個第一個環團我大概明年很像我明年年中我應該是我會由我來選擇定但是我會遵照委員的建議那事實上我會開放等於是我用開放政府的方式讓更多環團能夠來參與環境部或是意見的反應這個部分我用開放政府的方式來進行"},{"start":5487.168,"end":5488.109,"text":"接下來請圖全級委員發言"},{"start":5516.718,"end":5542.906,"text":"好謝謝主席那請我們彭部長請彭部長委員長好首先先恭喜我們彭部長那在這邊請問一下我們彭部長那針對我們彭部長因為你現在接任我們新任環境部長我們還是想要了解一下部長對一些能源政策的看法那部長你認為我們核能它是不是核能核能是不是綠能"},{"start":5544.768,"end":5555.929,"text":"從包委我個人參加那個全球的氣候變遷會議對於核能議題有很多討論核能目前的國際上的認知不是綠能但是它是一個潔淨的能源"},{"start":5557.796,"end":5575.492,"text":"所以認知不是綠能啦但是它是乾淨的能源那我們針對這一部分那所以我們部長好像針對在媒體的部分好像有講說也是傾向支持非核家園因為我是環境部長我只能遵守環境基本法所以就是非核家園"},{"start":5576.152,"end":5603.109,"text":"所以是非核家園嗎?對對那我請問一下那如果針對非核家園的部分那我們能源政策的部分你認為說如果非核家園那你認為能源政策應該以你環境部長的看法應該怎麼去做?報告委員其實這個能源政策是屬於國家的跨部會的這個政策那環境部當然我環境部長有表達我意見的權利所以我如果在閣議院會議裡面我的立場就是說必須要做到安全"},{"start":5603.769,"end":5620.695,"text":"而且要做到核廢料要妥善的處理當然這個是核安會最主要的職責但是我們會特別提醒要做好凝聚全民的共識才可以往下做所以部長說如果說核能能夠做到安全乾淨的話其實你也不反對核能是嗎?"},{"start":5621.295,"end":5644.147,"text":"包括委員其實我個人參加氣候會議歐盟其實他們有一個EU tax money歐盟的永續的分類的投資的指引他其實把核能跟天然氣短暫的變成所謂的可以投資的項目所以您剛才說的綠能是這個意思但是他其實是有但書的目前要屬於比較新型態的核能才有辦法認定為這種綠能"},{"start":5645.748,"end":5660.482,"text":"我個人是覺得是說如果要做什麼動作其實還是要遵照我們政府的指示我希望是可以比較安全然後大家很有共識的方式再來進行對那如果以部長我看你好像有在媒體有接受來講就是"},{"start":5661.403,"end":5677.808,"text":"就是依法邁向非核家園那如果說你目前你說未來的核能是沒有辦法解決現在的問題嗎你有說過這句話那如果不以核能來發電那你認為能源政策應該以怎麼樣來做會比較好"},{"start":5678.748,"end":5705.996,"text":"我們目前國家的能源政策有一定的趨勢的目標例如說像2030年現在新任賴總統的是希望拉到30%左右的綠能那當然這個未來到2050年希望可以到60到70因為這個再生能源其實它不會用到所謂的化石燃料這是全球的這個共識但是核能的話其實每個國家的狀況不一樣所以目前在COPE會議裡面通過的的確是在從氣候變遷的角度"},{"start":5706.676,"end":5706.856,"text":"對,未來還有氫能"},{"start":5735.427,"end":5756.837,"text":"未來還有氫能還有氫能那目前氫能沒有看到那我們現在主要如果以綠能來講就是光電跟風電可是我們知道光電跟風電其實它的成本很高可是其實效益真的不高那我們其實如果說目前核能沒有在用我們現在看得到的其實最大的就是火力發電廠"},{"start":5758.098,"end":5786.017,"text":"那我請問一下我們彭部長我聽說是觀音人是不是沒有我觀音出生我是苗栗人觀音出生嘛出生地是觀音那也算觀音人啦對對對是是所以剛好有在地的關係啦我也跟我們部長來說明一下其實我們整個桃園我們有一萬兩千間有登記的工廠所以也是全台灣密集度最高的工業區那我們在"},{"start":5788.579,"end":5800.893,"text":"臺灣有五大發電廠有一個全臺灣最大的就是觀音大潭火力發電廠目前它有6具機組正在運轉因為電力不足的關係現在"},{"start":5803.075,"end":5826.007,"text":"有7號、8號、9號機陸陸續續也在試運轉我們現在擔心的部分就是說因為其實火力發電它的碳排量一定還是比較高而且你增加更多的機組織是讓我們的空污更嚴重所以我們現在很多桃園尤其是觀音地方的鄉親都說他們都是冒著"},{"start":5827.523,"end":5827.543,"text":"國際網絡媒體"},{"start":5846.134,"end":5874.152,"text":"部長針對這一部分有沒有什麼看法?好,報告委員這個天然氣它的這個排放的碳大概只有煤的一半那天然氣的這個污染呢也遠低於這個煤但是我們未來會注意它會不會有這個臭氧會發生所以民眾擔心的問題呢相對於煤它清燒非常的多所以各位委員可以稍微放心那至於會不會安全的問題的話其實我相信這個能源署或是台電那是他們的這個職責他們會做好嚴格的把關的動作"},{"start":5874.952,"end":5892.632,"text":"好而且我們有2050我看我們賴清德總統也有目標2050是不是淨零碳排嘛對那淨零碳排剛好跟我們剛好我們剛講那個火力發電喔相呼應你要2050淨零碳排可是你又一直在增加"},{"start":5893.212,"end":5895.533,"text":"關於2050的目標,他們認為核能也是他們發展的一個方向"},{"start":5916.805,"end":5944.793,"text":"我現在想的說法就是說可是我們又一直在增加火力發電的基礎然後又說要近年碳排這好像是相違背報告委員其實天然氣它是屬於一個橋階橋階可能很難懂就是一個過渡型的能源等於是未來只要天然氣就是再生能源如果上去的話這個天然氣就可以慢慢的減少所以它是一個過渡型在這個所謂的再生能源還沒有起來的時候所以這個全球大概都是這樣的一個共識"},{"start":5945.453,"end":5962.039,"text":"好我今天要提的這部分就是因為剛好我知道說那個我們部長跟觀音有淵源然後觀音的鄉親對這個空屋真的是非常頭痛然後而且他們甚至還跟我們說他們希望能夠遷春他說因為這個空屋他們反映"},{"start":5962.739,"end":5982.688,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":5982.848,"end":5996.325,"text":"之前一陣子有針對我們淨桃專案也就是說因為飆車族這個噪音影響我們住戶尤其晚上睡覺的安眠那後來張三振市長這淨桃專案"},{"start":5998.66,"end":6017.205,"text":"推出之後成效還不錯 那個後來我有問我們薛部長就是之前的薛部長好像針對這部分預算我們是不是可以增加因為很多的縣市都認為這個聲音照相科技執法移動式這個照相科技執法成效很好"},{"start":6017.705,"end":6035.695,"text":"那部長是不是知道這個事情?報告委員知道目前我們現在正在跟中央整齊預算當中希望未來可以全國大概500多具這樣的聲音造成因為我們民眾的抗議或是陳情其實噪音比例是最高也是最有感的"},{"start":6036.015,"end":6055.879,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":6056.139,"end":6058.221,"text":"謝謝委員支持還有剛剛我有聽到部長有針對SRF好像針對SRF排放標準"},{"start":6074.815,"end":6100.239,"text":"部長好像針對這一部分好像說會去嚴格管制有針對這一部分去做管理是嗎對我們目前第一個是源頭第二個是他在燃燒的過程當中一定要進行這個我們現在有一個預告修正的草案在6月份我們大氣師會提供首先要監測兩個一個是氯化氫還有強化檢查這個大澳型所以這個委員考慮到的可能跟國人的健康疑慮我們一定會嚴格把關做這些事情"},{"start":6100.459,"end":6116.498,"text":"這一部分要拜託我們部長因為據我們了解我們SRF這個排放標準根本跟我們垃圾焚化爐的標準幾乎是一致它裡面SRF這個成分裡面台灣做的SRF這個燃料棒裡面居然有塑膠、有廢輪胎"},{"start":6118.7,"end":6145.237,"text":"很多可以製造代號心的東西都在裡面所以我希望這排放標準部長能夠好好的研議尤其我們觀音又跟觀音有關係所以SRF這三家有三家要設立在我們桃園觀音也是鬧得沸沸揚揚民眾現在一直很關注這件事情我希望最主要針對SRF這排放標準環境部能夠訂定一個能夠"},{"start":6145.877,"end":6160.464,"text":"合乎排放標準,能照顧全民健康的排放標準,請我們部長跟環境部這部分來重新訂定。好,沒問題。好,謝謝部長,謝謝。謝謝圖圈級委員發言。接下來請王育明委員發言。謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長,請彭部長。"},{"start":6174.363,"end":6174.383,"text":"委員長,謝謝。"},{"start":6194.455,"end":6218.914,"text":"對於其他的面相可能比較不了解的部分這可能就是你要花更多時間跟力氣迎頭趕上的我不曉得你上任到現在有沒有感覺到這一個被追趕的壓力的確每天都半夜會醒過來半夜醒過來要懂得還要很多很多要跟我們同仁多學習對因為就本席在未還的幾項業務當中我覺得環境部相對是比較深奧"},{"start":6222.881,"end":6244.382,"text":"就是比較專業比較難懂的所以但是還是希望你可以好好睡覺因為好的體力這個可以應付立法院這樣的一個質詢那第一個本期要請教的是考古題這個事實上我也問過上一任的部長我同樣要來請教你就是如果我們仔細去看臺灣的這一些碳排的話你可以發現"},{"start":6245.359,"end":6262.019,"text":"事實上他一直都沒有辦法有效的減少所以我知道您過去也參加過氣候變遷大會那氣候變遷大會其實對於各國都有一些碳排的要求的其實台灣一直都沒有達標這個你應該也清楚"},{"start":6262.591,"end":6277.001,"text":"那第一個我想請教你的就是如果歷任的部長都做不到的部分那今天賴清德總統重用你您要用什麼樣的方法有效的去降低這個碳排"},{"start":6278.602,"end":6296.718,"text":"您覺得您當時在民間你參加過這些氣候變遷大會也看到你從一個比較旁觀者看到臺灣為什麼我們的碳排沒有辦法有效的減少那今天你做到部長這個位置了你覺得最關鍵的因素在哪裡你要怎麼樣去解決這樣的一個問題"},{"start":6298.019,"end":6310.496,"text":"好報告委員因為我個人本身不是從官僚體系出生民間也有很多的意見那這個意見也謝謝總統或是院長他們都看到了所以找我來的工作就是你所說的我要來解決這個問題那這個問題必須很坦誠的說"},{"start":6313.84,"end":6337.608,"text":"不是只有環境部的事所以我的角色我會進行多種的跨部會的合作希望大家一起來談這不是我環境部的責任我是末端算碳排的責任所以這個要大家各個部會一起來承擔那目前卓院長也有這樣的很大的認知所以目前他的確是給我很大的支持度就讓我放手來做這個事情也請委員給我支持給我鼓勵"},{"start":6339.449,"end":6364.347,"text":"你剛講到一個重點就是說環境部有沒有辦法去指揮其他的部會要求他們來配合這個的確是長期的一個問題接下來我讓你看這一張在我們現在的碳排裡面光運輸部門的碳排是不減反增交通部是大部會交通政策沒有淨零有碳排"},{"start":6365.747,"end":6389.049,"text":"這個部分它的運輸它的部分還超越了工業在2022年那單就這個部分你將來要怎麼跟交通部針對這個部分來解決你剛剛說總統跟院長特別希望你由民間來到公部門體系就是要解決問題的但是過去我們看到在行政院裡面部會是平行的"},{"start":6390.429,"end":6418.621,"text":"請問一個環境部部長怎麼樣來要求交通部應該要來配合環境部的政策過去的部長是做不到的因為我來自民間比較有彈性我對我來說政府就是一起的所以我的確在這段時間雖然我還沒上任我也跟很多的部長談說我們可不可以來合作所以我的確是彎蕭搖來希望跨部會進行多一點合作那當然啦這個東西都需要大家雙方的努力光靠我一個人沒有辦法"},{"start":6419.261,"end":6440.277,"text":"所以基本上不管不是只有交通還包含農業甚至醫療等等全部都是跨部會的所以我沒有辦法說我一個人就可以跟大家承諾要進行碳排所以我的確會彎下腰更多的彎下腰來跟大家一起來合作希望大家來看看那個數字達成這樣的目標那如果這樣子其實應該賦予更高的位置"},{"start":6440.765,"end":6459.158,"text":"我不敢不敢就是政委層級的才可以協調部會要求部會配合你啊因為因為部會之間在公部門就是這樣大家都平行單位其實誰也不聽誰那個環境部其他官員應該感受很深啊大家開會大家都白打就是交通部長可能覺得他還比環境部大"},{"start":6459.998,"end":6485.876,"text":"因為交通部是大部啊報告委員我的經驗是我的權力不是權力的大小不是來自於官位而是來自於你的熱忱跟影響力所以我會積極的去做希望我還持續明年還有這樣的熱情啦我會努力啦好我們看到一個樂觀的部長我是正向的啦對我知道看起來這個部長非常的樂觀但是其實你回去可以告訴卓院長就是說這件事情若要辦得成他"},{"start":6487.757,"end":6504.885,"text":"以一個行政院院長之姿他可能還要派一個政委來協助你就你們必須連成一條線才有力量去讓其他的部會鬆動配合這件事情不是樂觀就可以達成的因為我不知道誰是負責環境部的政委是哪一位"},{"start":6505.485,"end":6531.429,"text":"目前還沒有確定但是我覺得卓院長對我是非常的支持那卓院長不能只是口頭支持我覺得行政資源跟加上一位政委的力量而且他自己恐怕要召開一次會議把部長叫來正式告訴他說這件事他就是授權環境部未來如何去降低交通運輸部門的碳排由環境部來做主責單位各部會應該要配合這個是"},{"start":6535.471,"end":6557.005,"text":"告訴部長你可以回去要求的這樣你才會有實權以後開的會才會有效益要不然都是開一開就算了就人家真的不會聽你的這個是你要有這樣的現實感這個是非常重要的所以這個部分請你就是我覺得你有樂觀的態度願意溝通精神很好但是在行政部門裡面講求的是權力"},{"start":6558.066,"end":6574.677,"text":"那個權利還是很重要有真正的授權那另外一個是你自己就可以決定的碳費的制度延宕到現在沒有答案那上一個部長我問他他沒有答案您是新任的部長我想問你"},{"start":6575.518,"end":6604.758,"text":"你自己有沒有一個真正具體的目標環境部可以自己做決定嗎還是涉及到中小企業還是得看經濟部的臉色因為這件事情曾經一度就停擺而且媒體還傳出來不見得是明年要上路可以一言再言那我不知道這個部長賴總統或者是卓院長有沒有賦予你明確的目標還是遇到經濟部還是得要轉彎如果有反彈"},{"start":6605.778,"end":6633.676,"text":"中小企業通通都反彈那這件事情連一步都跨不出去因為你的審議委員會不敢去碰觸定價的問題到目前為止開好像沒有開事實上你們早就有復案了我對前一個前一個部長是這樣子講早就有復案是不敢端出來因為這個企業都還有意見那這部分你要怎麼處理這是你手上就可以處理的你敢不敢把車開出去"},{"start":6634.375,"end":6653.775,"text":"我從我的立場來講 這個車一定要趕快開 縱使影子價格就是零也可以開 我是認為這是最重要的 因為這裡面還有很多細節要處理 所以我個人是支持說一定要趕快進行 不過我也跟委員報告 目前的制度 當時《7月17年陰陰法》設下的規定 我沒有辦法決定多少錢啦"},{"start":6654.395,"end":6677.326,"text":"如果我可以決定我可能下個月就告訴你了所以目前我是遵照過去碳費設計的這個制度來進行那我絕對請我的次長能夠加快因為他是主席會加快的能夠來開這個會對那因為部長換新的次長沒有換嘛齁那次長上一次就就在延宕了那次長新的部長來你會加速你的進度嗎不同的部長你會有不同的作為嗎"},{"start":6679.4,"end":6684.552,"text":"跟我們報告啦因為其實政策我們不論是哪一個部長我們整體的政策就是依法來執行"},{"start":6685.543,"end":6707.26,"text":"那在跟委員報告是說我們前三次的會確實沒有涉及到費率的討論因為我們做制度的介紹那我們下一次的會現在在調查6月底跟7月初那我們這一次就依照委員的建議我們有把各種不同的費率在不同層級的衝擊評估要一起做一個完整的報告讓費率審議會的委員們來參考"},{"start":6710.462,"end":6720.699,"text":"然後來進行討論所以確定下一次會議就會觸及到對立的問題下一次會有這個評估方案讓委員們可以提供建議好那現在最大阻力是什麼"},{"start":6721.417,"end":6749.573,"text":"企業的反彈對不對因為我們委員們的組成有包括企業有包括不同的部門還有包括民間團體跟專家學者所以我覺得在討論的過程當中其實各界會對於碳費制度的期待我們都會一起考慮進去也不見得是只有企業其實民間團體也有很多的但為什麼之前一度傳出來說可能明年也不會上路你有看到這個新聞嗎有有因為新聞那是誰定調的"},{"start":6751.533,"end":6769.298,"text":"不是環境部,是更高層?沒有沒有沒有怎麼會傳出這個消息?我看到了,你有看到吧?有有有,每一個報紙都有有看到那是從哪裡來?因為我們沒有接到這個政策那會不會是經濟部自己講的?"},{"start":6770.449,"end":6784.836,"text":"不會,這個是我們決定的你們決定的嘛,你們人都沒有講那媒體自己,那個假消息從哪裡來的?我跟委員報告,其實從我們這個過去的經驗在COPE會議的經驗其實碳費只是一個工具"},{"start":6785.516,"end":6804.512,"text":"還有別的所以我其實也跟我們同仁講我們要跟先進好的國家學習例如說新加坡或是日本等等他們有一些配套的措施所以碳費只不過是碳定價一個工具而已所以我希望我在我的任內我可以積極發展多元的工具促進減量那個量可以減下去才是關鍵"},{"start":6805.553,"end":6818.694,"text":"當然量減下去才是關鍵但是為什麼當時大家會覺得碳費必須制定不可因為它就是一個強而有力的工具逼著大家你非減不可要不然你要付出比較高昂的成本"},{"start":6819.352,"end":6836.916,"text":"所以這件事情我覺得考驗著我們彭部長的決心就是說會不會做得成這個就是你在環境部部長這個位置要不要留下一個歷史上的紀錄這個看你自己怎麼樣做選擇因為如果災是放軟退縮然後沒有其成"},{"start":6839.69,"end":6864.769,"text":"那這個大家就覺得換什麼部長其實都一樣我們台灣沒有一個強悍的部長為了這一個減碳就是強力執行到底所以這個彭部長你的這個歷史定位在碳費的這件事情上面他其實還蠻關鍵的希望你這個新職上任一切可以順利但是環境部真的不是那麼好做他必須展現一定的執政的"},{"start":6867.022,"end":6887.108,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6887.503,"end":6894.011,"text":"好謝謝王育明委員在這邊做以下宣告等一下在鄭天才委員質詢結束休息10分鐘現在請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":6908.455,"end":6927.443,"text":"謝謝主席 本席想邀請部長 已經非常積極 急著趕快要上台了 現在應該是午了吧 以前我們在電視上看到你"},{"start":6928.65,"end":6950.236,"text":"現在我們面對面討論從20號就職到現在我們知道這一個位置是台灣非常重要的關鍵時刻的一個決策而且也是一個執行者因此我們特別要討論到碳費的問題因為所有的產業界大家都非常的緊張"},{"start":6951.676,"end":6969.169,"text":"那原本在第三次會議呢必須要去討論到碳費率的問題但是我們沒有辦法提出所以我們預估會在第四次會議你們的第四次會議會提出會嗎?會不會再演?我也想請次長也一起來會不會?"},{"start":6973.395,"end":6991.567,"text":"會再演嗎?不會跟委員報告第三次來不及第四次會不會?不會不會我們第四次確認我們會把費率各種不同費率的評估方案都提出來在第四次嗎?對在第四次第四次會預計什麼時間?我們現在在調查委員們6月底跟7月初可以開會的時間"},{"start":6992.588,"end":7008.756,"text":"就7月初可以開第1次的第4次的會議第4次的會議那麼也會在碳費率的部分會併案會納入去討論會我們把我們會把那個不同費率的這個衝擊影響評估都一起啊坊間有說"},{"start":7009.756,"end":7037.639,"text":"我們的碳費要收會延後一年在經濟委員會討論的時候那經濟相關單位似乎也有這個方向當然一切要等到我們的碳費率最後決定怎麼樣去做決定因為排版定案是在部長你這邊所以這個進度我們初步有一個瞭解所以因此剛剛部長你說了你希望要多元的工具"},{"start":7039.221,"end":7052.338,"text":"重點結果論你真正要能夠檢量能夠檢才是答案量能夠檢所有的方案都是對的量沒有檢所有的答案都是都是都不好的人你頻頻點頭你也說過"},{"start":7056.348,"end":7083.375,"text":"你會參考攤費的部分你會參考美國的租稅這個遞減日本的發行氣候債券那甚至你剛才說的新加坡的方案綜合世界各國所以因此你要讓棍子跟蘿蔔一起發揮效用這個許了這個方向是很好喔那要怎麼執行呢要怎麼執行呢"},{"start":7084.395,"end":7110.97,"text":"報告委員 這個的確是一個難題因為租稅的減免在台灣對於氣候變遷沒有過然後發行這個氣候拆卷像日本climbing bond他們發了8000多億在2月的時候台灣也沒有過所以我的確現在在說服幾位的閣員我們來研究看看這件事情可以怎麼走部長你談到這裡本賢還是告訴你務實的去做沒錯我們雖然可以拿全世界各國這非常好"},{"start":7111.71,"end":7119.678,"text":"但是你自己根基基本盤沒有好什麼都不用講你今天跟產業對話你預計要什麼時候跟產業對話產業已經好緊張欸產業好緊張欸我怎麼辦我連時間點都要追蹤欸那你什麼時候有沒有規劃你要跟產業對話有沒有"},{"start":7131.95,"end":7143.105,"text":"我隨時都是跟產業在互動啦,報告委員,其實委員,其實真的產業不必在這裡回答都有錄音錄影,你不要隨便回答,什麼叫隨時,現在不是報氣象啊,好嗎,不可以這樣回答的"},{"start":7150.546,"end":7171.149,"text":"你有沒有預估因為你剛就職第二天我也謝謝你就直接就這個張偉邀請你就來那因為這個議題非常重要所以本席是建議你你什麼時候要跟產業來去了解探討因為你首批的碳費徵收你的對象是"},{"start":7173.198,"end":7195.08,"text":"這個排蛋量超過2.5萬公噸的產業所以因此你的徵收對象你的標準你的徵收方式那你要怎麼去規劃中長期你要怎麼規劃這個是你的功課欸但是你的功課你對象你不跟他對談那你去這怎麼辦啊你沒有對象你怎麼執行啊"},{"start":7196.55,"end":7202.755,"text":"你有沒有考慮在你就職之後跟產業對話瞭解產業的需求因為6月7月初就要開第4次會議因為這個議題部長我們之前每一次我們一直很詳實理性的在討論所以我也要把這個告訴你"},{"start":7218.066,"end":7220.047,"text":"會不會考慮跟產業對話?5月10日、5月15日、5月17日、17日上午下午都有,包含電子業、紡織業、造紙業、水泥業,其實要增收500家一定要對話"},{"start":7243.161,"end":7269.102,"text":"因為未來執行是他們一定要對話你的政策一定要能夠落實你制定一個政策沒有辦法落實那這個會社會大亂欸產業界不可以亂欸這是我們的命脈欸報告委員我觀察是很多的大家對於碳費的認知或是碳定價的認知有一些誤解所以我們也希望用這個機會讓大家知道所以你們對話把你們這7場次討論的方向"},{"start":7273.165,"end":7288.517,"text":"產業的需求是如何請詳時順便資料給本席我們一起繼續好好地來協助達到三贏的政策那接下來本席要請教本席要請教就是說能源的政策供電不穩能源配比"},{"start":7289.588,"end":7310.906,"text":"我們臺中的火力化電廠八成是煤雖然地檢第一滴滴滴滴滴我們很期待中部人用廢發電已經貢獻良多了不可以再欺負我們所以在這樣的一個情況之下請教2025年的非核家園這個政策會不會拿出來重新討論請教部長"},{"start":7313.408,"end":7341.034,"text":"報告委員我是環境部長我是遵守環境基本法目前我們的那個環境基本法第23條有定要達成輝和家園的目標但是王前部長也已經說了2025年是達不到的所以不斷的跳針跳針跳針啦跳票跳票跳票所以我非常的期待你來自我們的氣象專家你也素養非常高我對你期待很高"},{"start":7342.354,"end":7364.034,"text":"請教環境基準法第23條也就是非核家園的這個部分在目前我們所需的能源你的立場會不會拿出來檢討我個人認為是因為所謂能源政策是屬於我們的國家的大政是需要跨部會來做協調的你的立場我的立場我是遵守環境基本法非核家園的政策目前社會的需求"},{"start":7365.427,"end":7393.876,"text":"會不會拿出來檢討這個裡面我個人其實認為是說有兩個問題就是說到底我們的能源夠不夠我們的這個提供的夠不夠或是我們需求的夠不夠所以部長你回答到這裡也就是一個政府橫向的聯繫一定要夠我告訴你郭部長說他上任之後他非常負責任要將全國的需電量做一個總檢討報告給國人他認定為核電是乾淨的能源也是綠電"},{"start":7395.716,"end":7410.961,"text":"這個訊息告訴你應該你在媒體上面都已經有看到所以我們希望耳聽八方眼光四方好好的來聽到大家的需求去做正確的判斷好不好所以最後一個結論因為"},{"start":7415.252,"end":7438.644,"text":"賴總統對於近鄰轉型有不同的想法所以你這個會推動近鄰轉型五大策略以及綠色成長策略對不對對沒錯這個也是你擔任部長非常重要的這個工作目標嘛沒錯是不是是那本席也希望因為呢我們看到了這些的報導"},{"start":7439.844,"end":7446.471,"text":"有很多的羞恥但是我們希望能夠有實際的政策跟動作來協助產業協助社會"},{"start":7449.469,"end":7469.559,"text":"讓政府可以達到三贏這是你的必要做的事情所以我在這邊也請你將你認為總統先生所指示的這個方向你預計要怎麼做請詳實的書面資料給本席我們再來一起好好討論好不好沒問題沒問題這個問題非常的大不是沒有問題沒有問題我報告會來給委員好努力加油謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7476.813,"end":7485.482,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員那我在這邊再做一個重新宣告等一下在黃珊珊委員質詢完之後再休息接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":7512.172,"end":7532.921,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長。請彭部長。委員長。部長好。非常帥氣。謝謝。我從你的資料裡面看,你也長期在環境保護協會,當過理事長、當過秘書長。"},{"start":7538.211,"end":7560.076,"text":"所以這個應該可以勝任這個環境部的工作當然環境部業務也很廣泛今天要跟你談的是跟這個花蓮、台東的交通當然跟環境有關係環境部"},{"start":7562.013,"end":7573.12,"text":"蘇花安環評在今年的2月20日做了環評。環評的結果是沒有通過,要再補辦環評,要補正。這是113年2月20日。"},{"start":7580.302,"end":7604.138,"text":"然後在5月14日做了第二次的初審只是初審會議然後做了一個建議通過所以這個部分是我要特別請這個部長還有這個次長還有尤其是公務人員"},{"start":7606.515,"end":7634.21,"text":"這個部長我是30年公務人員我也擔任過這個常務的副主委所以我要請這個這個公務人員這個要協助協助因為難免這個環保人員他用最高的標準但是現在的工程技術是可以跟環境保護能夠兼顧甚至"},{"start":7635.774,"end":7655.775,"text":"甚至反而是做了這些工程技術施工更可以環境保護更可以達到環保過去我也常跟這些環保人員對話以前還沒有書法改的時候"},{"start":7656.704,"end":7676.25,"text":"你現在還沒有抒發改的時候,一下也就塌方,一下也就塌方。這個就反而沒有保護。對不對,沒有保護。所以這個部分,我們就舉一些例子好了。我們就以抒發改,抒發改就是已經完成的。抒發改它做的都是最困難的。"},{"start":7677.814,"end":7705.344,"text":"最困難的最危險的做了那現在就是要繼續做這個舒華安舒華安就是說這些這個河倫到崇德這一次那個0403大地震那個就是這個大清水最下面那個有沒有大清水就在這段黃色的這個就是舒華改舒華安黃色的是舒華安要做的是比過去好做的"},{"start":7706.684,"end":7732.813,"text":"比較好做的而且不要那麼這個對環境保護沒有那麼困難的但是這一次的環保房更困難很奇怪難以想像這個就是一個公務人員怎麼樣去善盡說明讓環保人員能夠瞭解同樣的工程在南淮公務都做了結果在蘇花改的又有"},{"start":7733.905,"end":7748.73,"text":"不同的環保人員去發言。所以這個我就不再,剛剛就是另外一個圖了。我們就去做對比"},{"start":7750.292,"end":7775.143,"text":"這對比比較重要蘇花改97年11月10號可行性研究然後99年11月9號完整環境影響評估100年就動工這個是最困難的結果比較快我先講這個蘇花改這一次0403大地震完全無事"},{"start":7776.738,"end":7785.491,"text":"更早的北回鐵路,北回鐵路知道嗎?更早嘛從以前到現在大地震、大颱風"},{"start":7788.237,"end":7808.765,"text":"都沒有大好意都沒有事所以這個部分就是要怎麼樣去讓這個說明的時候他的環保人員就是說不是環評人員啦環評人員總是有意見嘛所以要做好詳盡的一個說明所以這個部分你看我們這個蘇安108年"},{"start":7813.051,"end":7830.641,"text":"12月20日可行性研究本來一估111年結果112年到現在還沒有完成環評的所以這個已經嚴重落後所以這個部分本來好做的結果反而落後這個就是沒有善盡說明"},{"start":7832.81,"end":7850.267,"text":"我們做環保環境部的這些我們的不論是部長或是次長或是公務員要善盡說明讓這個能夠順利可以嗎好可以報告委員這個因為我說話安的時候我還沒有上任可不可以請我們環評司長來進行報告沒關係我們跟他對話過了"},{"start":7858.395,"end":7873.189,"text":"希望能夠做想妥善的說明而且你會是一季七月底請他們公務總局補證資料如果他們提早補證資料我建議你們能夠提早開這個"},{"start":7875.486,"end":7893.011,"text":"環評大會好不好好好好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員接下來請李燕秀委員李燕秀委員李燕秀委員不在接下來請邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在接下來請黃珊珊委員發言好謝謝主席我請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":7906.189,"end":7931.768,"text":"委員長是部長我看到你自詡為政府的永續長所以今天開始我們就把你當成政府的永續長那我看到您在就任之前的專訪其實非常高興第一個我想知道你說碳費的時程不可以再拖要先上路少說一點也沒有關係這一點我想問一下除了碳費上路之外"},{"start":7932.878,"end":7954.789,"text":"碳費之後銜接的碳稅你覺得什麼時候可以上路?包括委員其實碳稅跟碳費我們的碳費已經有碳稅的隱含的類似的性質在裡面但是內容還是差很多但是如果以我長期參加COBA會議還有各國的經驗總量管制的碳交易才是釜底抽薪最有效的做法但是這個還要一點時間"},{"start":7956.212,"end":7977.722,"text":"需要時間但是我們需要做好準備對吧因為我們已經必須要銜接國際我在3月的時候質詢了環境部長薛部長問他碳稅什麼時候可以上路薛部長說他認為2030年是一個不錯的時間點那氣候署的署長蔡麟也補充說初步規劃是2030我想請問彭部長您上任了對於這個規劃是不是還繼續延續前我們環境部的態度"},{"start":7984.105,"end":8009.966,"text":"我個人其實沒有特別接觸到碳稅但是我還是跟我的報告委員其實總量管制的碳交易就像EU ETS或是美國等等的制度才是甚至連有些國家兩個國家雙軌並行所以部長我的意見是我們不管如何我們要做好規劃我們要做好準備您講的這個部分OK但是碳稅將來2030我們勢必要面對而這個面對現在可能就要開始接軌"},{"start":8010.966,"end":8021.592,"text":"雖然我們碳費還沒有上路第二個部分是你說實際要減碳更重要的是胡蘿蔔沒錯因為現在我們只有收錢企業大概也不痛不癢"},{"start":8022.318,"end":8048.255,"text":"但是如果給他一些胡蘿蔔他可能才會真正的做到但是碳費的機制上剛剛很多委員都說了公總在最近說你都沒有去溝通好或者環境部沒有溝通好我不知道我剛剛聽到說你會去溝通好我覺得是一件好事我們不會比業界更了解業界我們要知道他們要什麼如果他們只是要付一點點錢然後什麼東西都沒有沒有胡蘿蔔對他們來說也沒什麼用所以我要強調的是"},{"start":8050.4,"end":8063.889,"text":"現在我看你提到的是美國的降低通貨法案裡面台灣政府我們可以轉型的胡蘿蔔的參考美國的法案每年要投入3750億做減碳投資同樣的台灣目前碳費的規劃還有將來碳稅的規劃有沒有做所謂你講的胡蘿蔔的轉型的投資計畫"},{"start":8074.022,"end":8100.529,"text":"因為這個碳費現在還沒有正式起手所以它的使用的用途還沒有在規劃部長一個建議我們台北市當時我在台北市的時候我們提出了淨零碳排施制條例我們裡面就訂一個氣候轉型基金你必須要一筆錢來協助企業包括受損失或影響失業的民眾做一個轉型也就是說我們從碳費開始上路之後其實政府應該有一個相對"},{"start":8101.462,"end":8103.003,"text":"獲得最好的方法是財政部的租稅工具"},{"start":8127.602,"end":8145.213,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":8145.313,"end":8145.653,"text":"好,最後一個小問題"},{"start":8168.922,"end":8191.572,"text":"我常常在說我們現在不斷的有台積電不斷的在國內擴廠我們環境部我們主管的所謂的環境影響評估什麼都緩什麼都平平水水力也要平但是就是電力不平我上次問了薛部長也就是說一個他要設一個廠對我們的電力評估夠不夠完全沒有在他們的環境影響評估裡面"},{"start":8192.492,"end":8219.759,"text":"這個部分我們希望加入到將來的環評規劃裡面雖然我們電業法是由台電提供電業但我希望將來企業他可能自己也有自主發電甚至有自己要負責自己電力調配的能力否則永遠都是一般的民眾來承擔我們必須要做經濟發展這些電力的衝擊然後發生事情的時候就是我們如果反對我們就是不要經濟發展但是民眾"},{"start":8220.788,"end":8246.285,"text":"全國的民眾都在承擔這個經濟發展帶來對電的影響你同意吧?好 這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下你就用環境影響評估裡面包括電力的評估我們將來的自主自主電力也應該成為企業他在設廠的時候一個要求好 這個我會請我們同仁來研究一下我現在只要告訴部長說如果你上任這個部分應該成為環境部的責任之一好 謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8249.553,"end":8251.758,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言。我們先來休息10分鐘。"},{"start":8857.773,"end":8880.998,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8886.172,"end":8887.754,"text":"好,我們繼續開會接下來請陳穎委員發言部長好,請趙偉先請彭部長"},{"start":8914.841,"end":8926.859,"text":"首先恭喜您接任環境部部長,有機會來為我們國家服務。今天因為我第一次質詢你,我會溫柔一點。"},{"start":8929.601,"end":8955.256,"text":"謝謝謝謝上個禮拜六媒體有登出一篇獨家報導裡面有很多對於氣候變遷有關的政策思維個人也覺得非常的欣賞、相當的肯定那也希望說部長您可以秉持專業的信念然後堅持的走下去為國家真正解決我們在面臨的環境的問題你覺得這張照片挑的還可以嗎?"},{"start":8956.337,"end":8975.875,"text":"謝謝委員,謝謝那跟你本人應該還蠻接近的那首先我先請教就是環境部總共有多少位文官我印象大概是一千多位啦,約聘顧在一起一千多位你旁邊的要不要幫忙一下公務員有853,聘用人有103"},{"start":8980.885,"end":8988.887,"text":"聘用人員103公務員853預算員853本部文官有多少人?本部文官260人人數最多的附屬機關是哪一個?環管署環管署大概46個聘用的人力總共多少?46位總共全部"},{"start":9009.872,"end":9011.032,"text":"275"},{"start":9012.799,"end":9039.554,"text":"總共275個 您好像少算了好幾位喔 因為我們現在是職員加聘用 其實大概都300位上下啦 對對沒錯 那部長你就是你從來沒有擔任過文官 那過去也沒有真正的在政府機關任職 而且呢就是說你有這麼多的理念要推動 你有沒有覺得說靠文官去執行才有辦法就是做出成績嗎"},{"start":9040.994,"end":9068.255,"text":"我跟我同事包含的施署長我就覺得他們非常優秀而且他們的經驗其實有時候我覺得遠超於我你剛剛說跟誰一起我們各位的施署長在一起他們其實都非常的優秀有些甚至我的學長所以我其實跟他們工作非常愉快那我未來呢會因為我來自民間跟他們想法一定會有一些不一樣那我們會慢慢慢慢的會進入一個新的合作的模式也請委員放心我說部長聽起來也蠻"},{"start":9069.757,"end":9082.554,"text":"樂觀跟積極向上謝謝可是有時候人生未必不如意的事情十之八求如果說文觀假如因為"},{"start":9084.236,"end":9110.154,"text":"我相信大部分都可以跟您合作愉快配合得很好但是假如有有少數的文官在專業上沒有辦法跟上您那但是呢他們在法條上可能比你還熟悉那有可能不是有可能又在過去也曾經發生過就是有可能就是說曾經誤導或者可能誤導部長甚至故意消極抗命"},{"start":9111.255,"end":9130.769,"text":"你不要樂觀過度這種現象會發生是有過的那或者是說在幾個月這個幾個月前升格的時候才剛升上去的這個機關首長自己對於自己的業務都還搞不清楚那面對這樣的問題部長你有能力去處理嗎"},{"start":9132.697,"end":9151.352,"text":"這個第一個是我當然必須要很好的去花時間去好好瞭解各個業務我也會逐步的拜訪我們的這個各個私塾的同仁去瞭解實際上我比較好奇是說你會維持文官的穩定還是說就大刀闊斧的在一定的時間之後進行必要的人事調整"},{"start":9151.992,"end":9163.225,"text":"我首先會了解我業務之後然後一段時間如果有一些職位的調動的話當然一定要必須公務員的方式來進行實際上的業務的狀況來再進行調度公務人員的就是說實際上業務執行的狀況還有表現來進行調度"},{"start":9171.193,"end":9187.049,"text":"必要的時候我想這樣的想法是對的本席也強烈的建議部長就是你要先用到對的人你才有可能把這個事情做對做好所以不然呢"},{"start":9188.05,"end":9216.773,"text":"就是很快你就會知道說為什麼很多的業務很難推動下去那本席也瞭解過您的這個經歷跟專業那環境部業務中可能的這個氣候變遷署、碳費的徵收還有跟您過去這個氣象達人的業務是比較有關係的所以我要在這邊提醒你這個環管署過去叫做這個環境督察總隊裡面的人最多"},{"start":9217.513,"end":9243.369,"text":"資源最豐富那涉及了補助跟地方的政府民意代表有很大的關聯那我希望這個業務呢部長今天你第一次到立法院來那我也第一次跟您做非常良心的建議這個部分希望你能夠多留意特別秉持著沒有比較沒有傷害的原則好好的比較一下"},{"start":9243.969,"end":9262.906,"text":"仔細看看過去升格以前的績效跟這個預算的執行還有在之後在比較升格為屬之後到底是這個業績是變好還是變差那這個是本席給部長的第一個功課好好的去比較一下"},{"start":9263.987,"end":9281.658,"text":"最後呢本席還想跟你分享就是從這個環境經濟學的角度切入碳費的問題是非常好那也希望說部長可以越快推動越好那這個是用這個誘因取代管制的這個做法也是很好的"},{"start":9283.807,"end":9305.161,"text":"因為我過去曾經質詢張子敬及薛部長希望你們能夠禁用經濟專業的人才開放高資等的職缺給他們讓他們為經濟誘因提出更多的配套方案但是目前好像沒有看到什麼成效"},{"start":9308.242,"end":9331.389,"text":"我所知道的這個政策工具除了說部長你有提出這個比如說補助、減稅、低利貸款以外還有這個全額獎金、降低保險費率還有放寬投資上限以及這個碳費減免等等措施但是我從來就沒有聽過環境部的官員包括"},{"start":9332.289,"end":9347.581,"text":"部長跟署長在立法院跟委員討論從來沒有聽過所以呢我也曾經說希望你們可以比照這個地球憲章的精神呢可以多多運用原住民的智慧還有在地的這個"},{"start":9348.302,"end":9348.322,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":9364.789,"end":9389.848,"text":"謝謝委員的這個建議你剛才提到幾個部分關於這個所謂的經濟的部分因為其實國家環境研究院我聊上任之後才發現他不是所謂的行政法人那人力方面他們也非常的缺那他也跟我反映了所以我這個部分我會想辦法來爭取甚至有一些調整的這個空間未來有可能往這個行政法人的方向目前我所知道的這個是有一些好的這個"},{"start":9390.989,"end":9415.78,"text":"例如說有一些研究院更好的我們是希望往更好的方式去邁進我會努力那另外一個委員提到這個原住民其實原住民我參加這個氣候會議那麼多次都有原住民的角色在裡面所以未來也希望如果我去參加各種大型的COP委員也可以跟我們一起我相信未來你在這個委員會常常看到我你就會想起原住民不會忘記了沒問題我哪一族的你知道嗎"},{"start":9421.899,"end":9433.787,"text":"我是北南族,我們這一族就是有張惠妹,然後有胡德夫,有紀小鈞,有這個小陳建年,大陳建年是他的親戚,也是我的爸爸"},{"start":9436.228,"end":9460.76,"text":"對,然後就是我們就是那個金曲歌王的常勝君這樣子你要記住這些好,沒問題好,那感覺今天跟你對談齁這個印象還不錯謝謝委員印象分數還不錯那我希望就是說你未來就是用你的能力跟實力來證明齁然後環保署這個去解決這個環保署以來的這個這個機弊成殼的問題啦齁"},{"start":9465.522,"end":9466.483,"text":"接下來請劉徐廷委員發言"},{"start":9501.482,"end":9526.053,"text":"謝謝主席喔 這個環境部長有請 請學 喔 彭部長部長 早安喔 這個恭喜上任 那今天做一下大方向的政策對話 我們等一下投影片第一個我想要問喔 這個淨零碳排喔 是不是新政府重大的施政目標"},{"start":9527.778,"end":9539.123,"text":"這當然是這是一個延續型的而且是全球的目標我們都應該積極往那個方向走那以這個國內的各生產單位或者是各個碳排大副而言喔電廠"},{"start":9540.902,"end":9563.281,"text":"火力電廠是不是碳排大戶?當然是當然是喔?你們有沒有掌握火力電廠的碳排佔全台灣的百分比跟相關的一些數字?如果以台電的話大概佔了1億噸的排碳量1億噸?全國的總量是多少?我們全國所有的大概是2億7千多萬噸全國,但是不是只有火力發電"},{"start":9564.062,"end":9589.227,"text":"我知道,那就是要含產業嘛以及任何跟相關的部長不錯,概念蠻好的數字這個稱讚一下所以你講只有台電光台電的電廠就佔了1億噸的碳排但是它其實是我們用的電我知道這是難免的事情對不對那你們有沒有包含其他的民營電廠的碳排當然有當然有在裡面所以加起來大概是我實際數字我再給委員報告但是整個大概是2億6、2億7左右"},{"start":9591.087,"end":9606.121,"text":"我意思說臺電是臺電的電廠還是韓民營電廠是一億臺電臺電所以如果還加上了民營電廠的碳排可能會更多對不對更多一些OK好這個那我要再問齁能源政策未來我們在討論能源政策的時候環境部有沒有角色"},{"start":9607.556,"end":9624.678,"text":"也跟委員報告我自己我認為是我要有角色因為我必須遵守環境基本法各項的議題那當然啦這個當然這個就是因為環境的能源的政策其實不是我決定的是一個內閣的決定的所以我很樂意參與我們內閣的相關的討論"},{"start":9626.56,"end":9649.363,"text":"我聽到部長非常積極地說我應該要有角色沒錯部長當然應該要有角色這個本席是來自桃園的立法委員這我要幫我選區的鄉親聲聲冤你可以在這張地圖上看到叫做桃園火力發電地圖它裡面當然不純然都是台電的火力發電廠很多是民營的電廠很多是氣電共生但是我想這些我剛剛特別會問部長"},{"start":9650.664,"end":9676.568,"text":"這些台電以外的電廠是不是也是碳排大戶其實我想答案是肯定的因為從剛剛的數據的問答裡面可以很清楚的知道全國的總碳排量兩億六千兩億兩億多噸對不對電廠佔將近一半所以說如何在能源政策上務實可行的去做調整其實恐怕才是最有效而且快速的達成淨零碳排目標的有效路徑所以本期希望"},{"start":9677.529,"end":9693.649,"text":"這個環境部長在未來的內閣裡面在能源政策的討論裡面不只要有角色而且要有比較大的角色因為即便能源政策由經濟部來主導但是經濟發展現在也跟全世界淨零碳排的這樣子的一個大的趨勢高度相關今天因為時間有限"},{"start":9695.071,"end":9722.092,"text":"我相信未來也有很多關於探權、探費等等的專案報告那個時候我們再來針對這件事情來做討論但那件事情其實跟經濟也有關所以說在討論未來的內閣的施政方向的時候環境部的角色其實是越來越吃重的所以我希望在能源政策調整的時候環境部長要積極的據理力爭從淨零碳排這樣子的一個角度去大膽的建議我們的新內閣務實的檢討現行的能源政策這是我給部長的第一個期許也給部長的第一個建議"},{"start":9722.792,"end":9743.945,"text":"第二個建議是除了總體的方向調整之外我們也希望落實區域的正義啊因為你可以看到這張電廠這張地圖其實北台灣啊整個北台灣大部分的發電重任其實是落在桃園喔那尤其是本期的選區龜山跟蘆竹分別有一座民營電廠正在偷偷摸摸的進行擴建"},{"start":9746.206,"end":9765.179,"text":"這件事情我覺得按現行的狀況來說我桃園的環境負載其實就已經非常高當然我們桃園是工業重鎮這我們理解但工業重鎮難道沒有污染嗎其實就有嘛本身現行的狀況來說環境負載對桃園人來說就是沉重負擔如果能源政策繼續這樣子做然後這些既有的電廠還紛紛擴建的話"},{"start":9767.08,"end":9792.475,"text":"如果我作為選區的立法委員我沒有辦法距離力爭我沒有辦法表達反對的立場那我有愧於這個支持我的鄉親那當然我們希望把格局拉高因為這不是只是我個人的選區利益也不是只是我選區鄉親的利益而是這一件事情已經不再是桃園的事情它不只是桃園的事它也是全國面對淨零碳排的重大危機我不希望這些電廠要被迫擴建然後增加更多的碳排增加更多的環境負載"},{"start":9793.476,"end":9808.741,"text":"所以我高度的期待環境部長在未來能源政策的討論裡面要有非常重要的角色不只是要為這個選區的環境正義發聲也要為淨零碳排來發聲這是我希望部長把這件事當一回事來幫我們距離來主張第二個"},{"start":9810.922,"end":9839.926,"text":"今天我們還除了討論空氣以外噪音的汙染也是本席非常關心的一個題目最近我們大家都在討論這個噪音車的管制那最近也有修法的這些方向從明天開始大概就是以抓改為主如果你改管沒有經過原廠也就是環境部的這樣一個認證機制可以立刻來開罰這樣子當然可以有助於提升取締的效率但是我也要提醒環境部因為以後抓改就很方便警察這個有微星電腦直接檢驗就可以直接開罰"},{"start":9840.726,"end":9867.702,"text":"當然提升開發效率有效嚇阻這個方向本席同意但是我擔心的是會不會未來我們針對改管這件事情你去取締之後會不會該偵測噪音的我們就不做了都丟給警察處理了我要提醒的是不是所有的改管都會有噪音有些噪音並不一定來自於改管的問題所以我要求環境部在這個地方的力道不能因為修法跟方向調整而有所降低也就是說該抓草的還是要抓"},{"start":9868.382,"end":9885.115,"text":"我們針對噢這個噪音取締的人力針對噪音科技執法的預算我希望還是可以看到一個上升趨勢去協助各地的地方政府來打擊這個噪音車的這個問題那未來我們本期也會提出噪音管制法的一些相關的修正希望環境部可以積極來配合"},{"start":9885.796,"end":9888.017,"text":"謝謝委員我會保持委員的意見我會留留參考謝謝謝謝好謝謝牛許廷委員的發言接下來請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":9920.731,"end":9941.11,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請彭部長請彭部長好彭部長好繼續牛許廷委員本席的選區跟牛許廷委員是隔壁然後剛剛的那個地圖如果有看到的話林口火力發電廠在林口三部機組火力全開藍莓"},{"start":9944.111,"end":9971.312,"text":"G7七大工業國會議之前有作出結論其中兩大非常關鍵的結論部長記得嗎有就是他不再發表反核的言論但是呢其實也尊重反核國家的選擇是但還有承認核能是環保的地位對不對這個是他有列入他的建議好那另外2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電"},{"start":9973.989,"end":9993.362,"text":"對,這個有些國家有提出這樣的需求是他們共同承諾2035年以前要淘汰藍莓發電那本席也問過了就說我們國家有沒有這樣的一個方向跟目標您知道在2035年到達之後全台灣以現在"},{"start":9996.447,"end":10023.986,"text":"臺電經濟部的規劃還有藍莓發電的電廠有哪些目前這個其實包委員這個是臺電的這個執掌啦這個我必須但是碳排最大嘛因為你剛剛講臺電是我們碳排最大一個部分以及本席也要再詢問今天很多委員一定都會討論就是碳費的徵收對不對千呼萬喚還沒有使出來本來應該是今年年初就要出來的但是也有些人推估說是不是這個太燙手山芋了"},{"start":10024.947,"end":10052.648,"text":"前一任部長看有沒有機會先幫您把這碳守山域給解除那沒有所以變成是您這邊要來揭開碳費那但是碳費到底怎麼樣其實大家各自都有各自的立場可是本席很認同一句話既然我們要達到2050淨零碳排的一個目標現在碳費的一個收取就有一個方向是要讓企業真的覺得痛但是又能夠覺得做得到"},{"start":10053.697,"end":10076.798,"text":"那這樣子才有辦法說要求企業他們去遵守這個碳費而且降低我們的碳排嘛好兩個部分第一2035藍煤還剩的發電廠就是林口火力發電廠也會是台灣藍煤最大量的一個發電機組那它造成的碳排會不會是最大"},{"start":10078.519,"end":10100.093,"text":"報告委員其實這個炭牌燒煤的這個排炭係數當然是比較高但是那個你說的電廠它其實是超超臨界相對之下它也比較接近比起其他的發電方式它還是最高嘛對當然是最高然後天然氣再來第二個部分炭廢您這邊現在有討論到第4次的炭廢費率審議會議6月召開那"},{"start":10103.035,"end":10130.708,"text":"有信心探費什麼時候出來?報告委員其實這個是委員會在就決定的我部長是沒有辦法去決定要收多少錢什麼時候要有做出決定出來的我還是必須遵照遵照委員會嘛但是之前部長都有講啊都有講是說原本希望是上半年原本希望是4月底前一任部長講說原本希望4月底能夠出來後來沒有結果又說希望是上半年那現在"},{"start":10131.869,"end":10151.41,"text":"六月召開的話,下半年有機會出來嗎?我相信依照目前的速度應該如果加快一點進行的話應該是下半年應該可以出的來但是我個人認為是有沒有出的來,其實趕快讓他立下上路決定,你也是說希望趕快上路,決定全部在你"},{"start":10152.318,"end":10177.066,"text":"但是你應該上任兩天的時間大家也都很關心也開始瞭解請幕僚作業告訴你說現在我們預期探費的這個區間落在哪邊了對吧目前還沒有你也還沒有去詢問沒有沒有這因為這個是委員會在做是啊他們有試算不一樣的價錢是對所以說區間你已經有一些掌握跟理解了大概有一點點是不是是好"},{"start":10177.586,"end":10203.402,"text":"你也提過為什麼現在大家方方面面提到就是因為企業也會有碳焦慮企業也會擔心說如果說真的太高我沒有辦法接受所以現在就說也應該要請國發會也說要請環境部先來跟企業溝通是不是是已經在進行了已經在進行你現在是用什麼樣的方式進行是個別找企業我們環境部"},{"start":10204.4,"end":10211.737,"text":"每個官員任幾個企業各別去跟企業溝通還是找企業來做小組的會議討論政策說明"},{"start":10215.549,"end":10243.367,"text":"到目前為止我們沒有看到相關的會議紀錄有有有其實從5月10號開始大概沒幾天甚至未來這兩天都還有一個這個所謂的溝通的座談就是三個執法其實針對那三個執法的草案的說明都有跟企業那主要是針對各個工會委員關係的電子業或是半導體業或是說所謂的這個紡織業、造紙業、水泥業都有在進行預計要開幾場總共要7場7場對現在已經大概有已經有6場了那明天還會有1場對"},{"start":10245.123,"end":10259.902,"text":"是不是針對這些部分有沒有相關會議紀錄可不可以提供給本席好沒問題我們會請主辦長會提供那最後部長本身您自己會不會跟企業來做溝通我當然會溝通什麼時候要找這個企業來喝咖啡"},{"start":10260.582,"end":10282.492,"text":"其實報告委員我來自臺灣氣候聯盟他是科技業我已經辭掉工作了這科技業其實他們的探定價的標準其實是遠超過原來大家設想的很多所以其實我必須說那500家企業有的是真的要我們幫忙的有些呢已經走得很前面了所以其實所有人都在探焦慮我覺得可以再讓大家更清楚一點點"},{"start":10282.892,"end":10311.137,"text":"就是因為讓大家更清楚對部長您講到這個重點其實本席也說在早在2022年我們已經有看到有一些金融業有一些相關產業他也認為是說他要跟國際接軌所以他已經走在比較前面了但是到現在2024年臺灣我們中華民國在氣候相關的法令訂立之後到目前我們都還是沒有把它給訂立出來也因此我們才會講是說到底什麼時候我們要走踏出這一步這一步不容易"},{"start":10311.937,"end":10340.312,"text":"但是既然我們講了其實剛剛您講的一個說法我也認同啊發電是我們大家共同承認的大家共同用電嘛能源也是選擇所以沒有哪一個能源說特別好或特別不好但就是選擇你要的是什麼樣的價值嘛所以有人講說核能它的優點是在於是低碳排但是你要解決相關的問題你要解決相關的疑慮這就是選擇啊但絕對不要去汙名化任何一個發電方式"},{"start":10341.277,"end":10355.419,"text":"那以及最重要的是到我們什麼時候要踏出那一步讓大家一起來負責是吧是我也沒有無名化核能或各種的能源但是有些人有心人就會刻意無名化嗎"},{"start":10356.539,"end":10375.357,"text":"是不是我如果以環境部長的立場當然就是要以安全然後必須核廢料能夠妥善的處理當然每一個人都一定任何一種發電方式都要安全對任何一種發電方式也都有後續的問題包括有人講太陽能板20年後那一些板要怎麼處理"},{"start":10377.134,"end":10401.327,"text":"這都是問題嗎?好,部長我現在只是說希望我們第一次的一個對談理性、專業我們也希望在您任內的每一天我們都持續用這種專業理性的態度來討論,可以嗎?沒問題,謝謝部長,謝謝好,謝謝吳立法委員的發言下一位吳立法委員發言"},{"start":10403.288,"end":10411.371,"text":"吳立法委員、吳立法委員、吳立法委員、吳立法委員不在。下一位我們請洪承邁委員發言。洪委員請。謝謝主席。請環境部部長。"},{"start":10423.994,"end":10447.526,"text":"委員好部長因為時間有限所以我還是直接跟你進入即便是今天是你第一次來到委員會那我今天主要跟你講跟部長討論的還是針對在520前環境部公佈的三個執法那這個跟探定整體的探定價有高度的相關的三個執法當然我今天沒有想要跟部長來討論探費的高低這個數字的問題"},{"start":10451.528,"end":10469.681,"text":"但我認為可能大家必須要來重新檢視目前公布的幾個執法他是否合理他的完備性跟他的邏輯上面的問題我想先問部長之前國發會在公布這個近零十二項關鍵戰略的時候其實有提出說2030年的國家自定義貢獻其實目標是24正負1"},{"start":10476.346,"end":10498.482,"text":"目前已經快要公佈第三階段的時間點部長我想請問部長大家很清楚知道其實在環境部手上跟精靈有關最重要的工具恐怕就是碳定價的部分所以部長你覺得如果在環境部的碳定價的政策推出之後能夠對這24正負1帶來什麼樣貢獻能不能有更積極的目標"},{"start":10502.237,"end":10522.923,"text":"報告委員其實如果要第三階段的管制目標現在如果我們看國際的國際很多地方很多國家都打不到那我們也必須去好好去檢視說未來的我們路徑過去這幾年如何未來會如何其實我會用更開放的角度來看這個事情那碳費到底能不能達到說真的我"},{"start":10524.263,"end":10542.478,"text":"其實他以現在或是國人的認知來說的話我是覺得有一點困難,能不能有得到的效果還是必須去討論不然我今天跟你問這個問題的原因是因為第一個我們當然希望碳費或者是碳定價這個工具在淨零的工作上面能夠發揮到更大的效益"},{"start":10543.218,"end":10564.494,"text":"能夠對目標有一個更清楚的往前的推進這是重點我覺得這是一個重點因為我們在12大戰略裡面我一直覺得很可惜沒有把碳定價給放進去沒有放進這12大裡面那接下來我要問的事情是我知道現在在碳費收費辦法裡面其實有設定所謂這個設定高碳洩漏風險的事業"},{"start":10566.576,"end":10580.222,"text":"那這個分成三期那有些來定0.2、0.4、0.6那坦白說這個數字出來也引起社會很多的討論大家看到哇打兩折很多人直接這樣解讀我想先問部長"},{"start":10582.372,"end":10605.977,"text":"這三個參數是來自什麼樣的依據?報告委員其實這個我有特別針對這個問題問我們的團隊其實大概就是有參考比如說新加坡、日本、韓國或是歐盟的這個數字那你計算的公式就是說這三個數字是從哪裡來的不是只是參考喔是怎麼算出來的這個就是銜接歐盟的CBAN它有類似的算法"},{"start":10606.451,"end":10629.859,"text":"那可以提供相對應的這個三個參數的產生的方式因為我之前有跟環境部要環境部說他們還不知道還要回去查一查當時是這樣跟我講的這可以提供嗎這今天下班前應該就可以提供好不好報委員其實我有發現這個是很多國家他在執行的細節所以我有特別請我們司委員還有帶環境部的我就是要細節我就是要細節對要去國外去好好瞭解因為不見得有網路上有公佈"},{"start":10630.673,"end":10648.867,"text":"所以我現在說這三個數字這三個參數如何產生的怎麼定出來的細節我就知道這細節那今天或者這禮拜好不好這禮拜提供到我的辦公室好不好這第一個事情第二件事情我看到這三個參數裡面分第一期第二期第三期請問這一期大概是多久時間"},{"start":10651.377,"end":10655.119,"text":"每一期有沒有定清楚的條件我達到什麼條件我進到下一期或我達到什麼時間進到下一期不然你分期沒有意義啊"},{"start":10671.994,"end":10689.208,"text":"是,跟委員報告這個整個會包括我們的這個碳費的這個徵收對象的這個起徵點然後會跟這個費率的主期的上升都會有聯動?署長我知道有聯動當然有聯動但是你們可以把參數定出來代表你們對於他的條件是有評估的"},{"start":10690.325,"end":10717.823,"text":"所以每一期設定的條件是什麼我到了這個條件我就進到下一期你要跟大家講你要嘛講時間要嘛跟大家講明確的條件是什麼大家會問啊你會不會永遠都在第一期條件是什麼目前是就是照理來說邏輯上面來說如果你沒有條件其實你設定不出參數啊就算是歐盟他有設定其別的參數他也是跟隨著清楚的條件啊"},{"start":10718.652,"end":10732.854,"text":"是,跟委員報告,因為我們的這個高碳洩漏的係數其實它有一個前提是這些徵收對象他都必須要提出自主減量計畫是,但是你設定的參數你必定一定是綁著條件嘛,不然怎麼會有參數呢?"},{"start":10735.669,"end":10752.588,"text":"現在有條件嗎?現在最主要這個參數的設計其實是參考歐盟的這個級別的這個規劃但是我要跟你提醒今天如果只有參數沒有條件大家不會對這一整套的機制跟這個時間的流程感到幸福跟信任的"},{"start":10753.783,"end":10783.392,"text":"你們應該要把條件給講清楚你要嘛講條件要嘛講時間我說兩年是第一期兩年後第二期你要嘛給個時間的period要嘛給清楚的具體的條件這事情講出來大家才會對你哦所以你的參數是有道理的這部分沒有問題吧是跟委員報告因為現在這個執法現在在預告當中那委員的提醒我們會把它放進來做討論市長照理來說其實在預告的時候就應該把條件給公佈了大家才能夠正確理解這個參數是什麼意思"},{"start":10785.633,"end":10800.751,"text":"這其實每一個環節都需要一個專業團隊所以我其實他們我也發現他們的人力減弱的不足我會來加強是那第二個事情我要提醒齁其實我們這裡面也包括我們資源性減量的部分我想大家都知道其實我們在討論資源性減量的時候很重要的概念一定是接軌國際"},{"start":10802.333,"end":10825.774,"text":"其實所有的在跟你討論探權或者是減量額度的裡面一個很重要的概念就是外加性我想大家都知道這外加性其實在國際的重要的標準包括VERA、VCS或者是GOLD STANDARD都有很清楚對外加性的定義的我要問部長現在我們在減量額度上面的外加性的要求我們願不願意接軌國際"},{"start":10826.815,"end":10852.949,"text":"我絕對是願意接軌但是我覺得很重要因為這是讓我們探權市場不會落入過於腐爛甚至劣幣驅逐良民我想這部長是專家很清楚所以今天部長在這邊承諾我們對於減量額度的外加性的定義是接軌重要的至少VERA或GOLD STANDARD這是我覺得這個立場要踩住好沒問題謝謝沒問題好部長最後一個問題"},{"start":10855.53,"end":10868.003,"text":"我們剛剛看到其實你的高洩漏風險其實你有訂了不同期數的參數可是我們都知道氣候法裡面有另外一項工具是優惠費率請問剛剛的碳洩漏風險的打折跟優惠費率之間這兩個是什麼關係"},{"start":10870.075,"end":10897.523,"text":"這個其實這裡面齁就是例如說水泥業他可能有國外從進口進來會影響到本國所以其實委員提到的一個問題這個我覺得這兩個都變成是一種費率的折扣我不討論費率高低但這兩個都折扣會不會有哪一家企業他既享有高泛高洩漏風險的打折甚至打到0.2但他同時又能夠拿到優惠費率的大幅減量大幅折扣會不會同時這兩個會出現"},{"start":10899.639,"end":10915.135,"text":"有可能那為什麼我們要用這兩個工具這兩個工具代表的意義是什麼他們之間的關係是什麼很快速跟委員報告就是我們當初設計碳洩漏風險的這個前提就是希望他能夠提一次酒減量計畫達到指定目標"},{"start":10915.874,"end":10937.588,"text":"所以當他如果提自主減量計劃有指定目標的時候我們的法制就是給優惠費率那這樣子的一個做法其實比歐盟直接給免費配合市長我現在問你一個問題會不會甚至有些企業他拿到的費率是原本定的一折因為他已經打了0.2就是兩折了甚至優惠費率再下去剩下一折"},{"start":10938.717,"end":10944.12,"text":"會不會有這個狀況?我這邊還是要把我們的立場再重申一次很簡單今天要給優惠費率這其實過去在修法的時候這就是一個爭議的工具"},{"start":10959.128,"end":10984.857,"text":"今天要使用這個爭議工具只有唯一一個可以接受的目的是你用了它可以加速這個事業體的轉型而不是放鬆它在探定價裡面的承擔所以我們要能夠確認你要給它優惠費率或給它打折你怎麼確認它是提出了加速轉型的計畫而且這個轉型的計畫怎麼被集合怎麼被audit"},{"start":10986.187,"end":10996.754,"text":"這是關鍵我覺得這是這幾個打折的工具上面我覺得最重要的前提而不是變成讓他放鬆他上面的承擔反而如果放鬆他承擔他可能是放緩轉型"},{"start":10999.039,"end":11020.638,"text":"在加速轉型跟放緩轉型之間就在於我們這些政策工具使用的條件是什麼我們使用的前提是什麼我覺得這部分要非常非常清楚的集合我不是說不能優惠我知道現在這個優惠已經入法了可是在使用的條件上面要明確定定不然我們很容易被外界認為我們是對某些高排放的企業在放水"},{"start":11021.724,"end":11050.742,"text":"反而透過低的費率讓它變成是放緩轉型的政策我覺得從環境部的立場這是大家不能接受的市長或部長這立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題沒有問題這個我們會來延商然後相關的資料會再給我延商部長我知道你們接下來還有好幾場的這個審議委員會我認為這個立場是應該踩住踩死的我認為這是合理的事情這個立場就算對產業來說都是合理的事我們是要拿來加速轉型所以你要確認它到底它提出的加速轉型計畫是什麼"},{"start":11051.687,"end":11066.313,"text":"而不是說我拿到優惠費率我就鬆了一口氣好 謝謝沒有問題吧沒有問題好部長謝謝謝謝紅色外委員的發言今天沒有臨時提案需要處理那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言主席有請彭部長有請部長"},{"start":11079.747,"end":11101.873,"text":"委員好部長好那根據我們氣候邊遷因應法明定我國應在2050年達成溫室氣體淨零排放那目前碳費收費辦法自主減量計畫管理辦法及碳費徵收對象溫室氣體減量指定目標三項草案從4月29號開始預告那預告期間為60天對不對"},{"start":11106.695,"end":11132.232,"text":"希望能夠建構未來實施碳費的配套機制然後促使我們收費對象加快、加大減量腳步那我想要問部長我是覺得您確實接了一個很重大的任務那原來薛部長他是針對我們的碳費的費率他本來答應是什麼時候要出來"},{"start":11134.287,"end":11160.217,"text":"其實當然這個要看那個碳費審議委員會啦他本來是答應第一季要出來啦請問跳票了沒有這個是他的這個任內的啦當然當然當然我不會把他的任內的東西就怪到您身上了雖然政府也有延續性但是我要跟各位跟那個部長說後來我們的薛部長就說那要改到6月底出來"},{"start":11161.308,"end":11186.672,"text":"我想請問我們彭部長你有信心兌現這張支票嗎目前其實這個還是要看這個攤配事務委員會部長不行喔做得到做不到一句話啦對不對你做不到我說過做不到我不會怪你啊因為那是薛部長的承諾啊對因為包委員這個是氣候因應法委員來決定這些事情那我只說嘛那薛部長就說6月6月底這個期限到底"},{"start":11187.212,"end":11213.473,"text":"可不可以嗎?我個人認為其實因為是碳費委員會來決定部長我對你齁基本上很尊敬啦謝謝謝謝但是你可不可以也有點像我們薛部長齁能夠給大家明確一點的明確一點日期嘛這樣不好啦基本上是委員會在決定的所以我要壓一個日期那你就是意思是你責怪我們薛部長委員會決定了然後怎麼可以隨便亂講話大嘴巴嗎?還是怎麼樣?我們薛部長大嘴巴"},{"start":11214.358,"end":11224.114,"text":"不是不是 人家有魄力只是沒做到而已啦 對不對那他本來說第一季要出來也是大嘴巴 那是推給委員就好啦"},{"start":11225.25,"end":11251.151,"text":"不要什麼時候推給委員因為環境部還是做一個主管機關我還是要再問一次部長你是無法承諾6月底是不是你的意思是這樣基本上那個執法是大概8月底可以預告完但是這個還要很多的公開會費率那費率的部分還要有幾次的委員會6月底行不行如果環境部我先講你要推委員也沒關係但環境部起碼要掌握時程吧"},{"start":11252.586,"end":11281.004,"text":"說真的報告委員這個這個時程這沒關係我跟你講其實部長你不用擔心因為你才剛上來怎麼可能怪你嘛不可能的事嘛那你今天如果不是6月那你給我個時間嘛全民期待時間啊這個我跟我們的團隊再好好再討論好不好所以跟各位講第一件事我們部長已經沒辦法明確告訴大家6月時程要再告訴大家沒有關係時程你要再研究的話早點讓我們知道好不好"},{"start":11281.624,"end":11306.586,"text":"我個人認為是要盡快要上路,不管是... 我想盡快是政治用語啦。六月叫科學用語啦。對不對?那明確嘛。對不對?那每個人都想盡快。我也相信薛部長也想盡快啊。啊快了沒有?就跳票了嘛。對不對?那沒有關係,新部長上來,我覺得你也...不過說真的,環境部還是有延續性啦。所以因此"},{"start":11307.308,"end":11321.982,"text":"這個部分我希望說能夠把時程能夠跟大家明確化可是另外一個更嚴重了我們薛部長離職前還直接曾經有說過不排除將延後徵收納入考量我們本來攤費是預計什麼時候徵收2024年有辦法做到2024年剩多久半年請問做得到嗎"},{"start":11334.582,"end":11357.602,"text":"可不可以請我們主席來回答主席委員好因為我們當初2024年打算要開徵那因為就是一些法制作業需要完備那我們收費辦法的草案裡面有提到說如果在開徵的第一年這個碳費是比較費率是比較晚出爐的時候對嘛所以問題來了嘛為什麼一直問你費率懂了吧部長為什麼一直問你費率"},{"start":11361.585,"end":11378.759,"text":"你費率都沒出來你怎麼跟我講徵收啊對不對費率出來你還要一部分的準備時程吧那我就問嘛這樣部長放寬一點今年底費率出不出的來呃我我是對我們費率誒6月我講到今年因為明年24就要開徵了捏"},{"start":11381.178,"end":11399.157,"text":"你在12月31號費率出來你1月1號趕開徵也來不及阿可我問你阿12月底有沒有辦法費率出來基本上我相信以他們速度是出來沒有問題但是我報告委員好謝謝齁你相信齁你相信以他們速度出來沒有問題對不對那你對開徵明年有什麼信心"},{"start":11399.637,"end":11415.874,"text":"基本上報告委員那個開針還有很多技術上的細節所以我也鼓勵他們說我們也可以用影子探定價的方式來進行部長真的因為你剛上任所以基本上我覺得還是要給你一點時間謝謝但是我想時程不能掌握"},{"start":11416.594,"end":11416.774,"text":"謝謝羅志祥委員的發言"},{"start":11446.035,"end":11458.521,"text":"我們下一位請林楚英委員發言謝謝主席 主席有請我們彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":11461.018,"end":11484.746,"text":"林委員好部長好今天22號其實才上了兩天所以等一下如果我質詢的題目如果在您業務還來不及去理解的部分可以讓您的一起陪同出席的這些司長或處長們來做回應謝謝委員好我們知道其實我比較關注的當然就是有關於碳中和這個議題我想今天大家關注的也都是這個部分但說碳中和容易但是事實上"},{"start":11485.886,"end":11511.219,"text":"呃他不是只有在環境部比如說像我現在注意到是很多的商品因為我們的這相關的碳中和名詞出現之後他也變成是一個可以販售的宣傳嗎包括便利商店啦或者是一些食用品當中都會說啊我有碳中和有碳中和感覺上好像不只是宣傳而且好像我在購買的時候我為綠"},{"start":11514.02,"end":11527.286,"text":"為環保好像盡了一分力但是這樣的過程當中到底是不是真的企業做到碳中和到底有沒有辦法做揭露那這個部分如果是產品是商品它的主管機關是環境部嗎"},{"start":11528.922,"end":11545.727,"text":"報告員其實這件事情就是現在我們氣候署有一個碳中和的一個標準那我們會建議朝那個標準來進行所以有些企業他的確會用這樣方式來宣揚他的這個淨零的這個理念當然是很好但是也要嚴防避免票率"},{"start":11546.127,"end":11564.529,"text":"好,其實我擔心的就是說,如果他問易賦取企業的社會責任ESG來做到碳中和那是最好的但是就擔心他變成一個宣傳的噱頭我們來看吼,我們現在指引到底什麼社會上路大家一定都在問但是我更想問的是,如果今天"},{"start":11565.59,"end":11592.021,"text":"環境部他所擬定的企業宣告碳中和的這個指引如果企業要揭露我想問的就是那揭露在哪裡是金管會過去一直都有要求有關於ESG的報告當中嗎那麼他的策略是什麼行動是什麼那麼是未來要改成是碳中和也要做一個揭露報告書嗎那在這個揭露報告書當中等不同同於剛剛上面我所詢問的就是許多的商品產品"},{"start":11594.261,"end":11599.676,"text":"他揭露了他探綜合有畫上等號嗎那如果虛位不實"},{"start":11601.175,"end":11626.715,"text":"主管機關到底是環境部還是也許是經濟部或者是其他的部會如果是食品會不會是會服部其實我想問的是我現在問的這些問題有沒有跨部會的討論或是不是已經有一個方向就是所謂的票率而這個票率的過程當中如果我今天林竹英發現了他是出現在"},{"start":11627.435,"end":11649.33,"text":"企業當中那我到底是去找環境部還是我去找經濟部又或者是商品我要找衛福食品我要找衛福部部長報告委員這個其實都是跨部會的那對貴於這樣的一個指引呢其實我們我包含我現在已經有跟今晚會主委在討論其實我們必須未來要有一些例如說綠色金融這是賴總統的這個政見"},{"start":11650.991,"end":11672.311,"text":"我們其實在綠色金融裡面也要有一些指引包含反漂率的一個原則那國際上現在大概已經有這樣的一個標的物來處理了所以我們大概會遵照國際上這種反漂率的原則來進行所以我們用的是歐盟的標準呢還是用什麼樣的一個國際上面的標準你知道現在有兩套的標準嗎對目前這個部分是不是請我們署長"},{"start":11674.591,"end":11697.008,"text":"委員報告,您是?我是氣候變遷署長。好,氣候署署長,署長好。那現在我們在國際間在做碳中和都是自願性那現在我們也跟金管會還有相關的部會準備要開始來對國內這些自願性的工作來做規範那金管會他們日前釋出來的訊息他會先針對金融業那環境部的部分我們會針對企業的部分"},{"start":11698.909,"end":11701.172,"text":"所以會像金管會所要求的公發公司在他們的報告上面做揭露嗎?還是?"},{"start":11717.881,"end":11733.9,"text":"如果是公發公司願意自發性的來處理的話是根本報告這個就必須要跨部會來討論好因為我會問到這一題就是我手上拿到的就是金融機構房票率的一些指引那麼這個是由金管會來做擬定但是我就想要詢問了"},{"start":11734.941,"end":11757.727,"text":"那麼金融機構他在降房票率的時候我相信就是來做投融資的時候的這些融資的個案我們來做一些指引的宣導但是這樣的標準跟標的有沒有跟環境部做商討而且到底是真率還是假率那誰來判定尤其是金融機構裡面有人可以判定這是真率還是假率嗎"},{"start":11758.827,"end":11778.876,"text":"報告委員,其實這個部分我跟金管會彭朱惠有討論過這個議題,兩個會來做這個事情好,什麼時候?有約了嗎?有沒有期程?我什麼時候可以拿到更進一步的資料跟指引的方向?因為其實這份指引我看過了,但是其實都是概念性我覺得如果是這個概念,我必須講金融機構"},{"start":11779.957,"end":11781.579,"text":"報告委員,因為我們都有約好啦,但是因為我們都是第一次今天在立法院,所以等到我們稍微一點點上進道,我等一兩個月內會找他來開會。"},{"start":11800.859,"end":11802.7,"text":"謝謝林祖英委員的發言下一位我們請廖偉祥委員"},{"start":11833.253,"end":11854.313,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們彭部長彭部長你好首先恭喜你剛上任兩天那剛剛我想很多人都問過你目前出的這個最重要的目標跟任務是什麼但我想要請反過來問你那你上任之後你認為你比較大的困難跟挑戰會是什麼"},{"start":11855.442,"end":11871.438,"text":"我覺得就是說大家對於環境的認知大家覺得我包含我們的同仁都很優秀可是其實大家都會把環保放在最後面所以我會努力的把環境保護放在前面讓國人可以知道獲得更高的支持"},{"start":11872.82,"end":11897.199,"text":"對但是困難所以這個部分你覺得就是要把這個環保的概念放到第一位是比較困難的因為其實現在年輕朋友對於環境的支持度是非常高的但是大家社會裡面都會覺得這個環境保護等是要經濟發展之後才要來做這個事我希望逐步的來扭轉這個大家的認同可能是要同步發展這樣所以部長有許多業務是必須要跨部會協調甚至可能要行政院層級來統統整"},{"start":11899.361,"end":11912.473,"text":"所以包含著其實大家很關心的所謂碳費啊或是碳稅或者這個綠色產業等等的問題應該它的層級要更高啦但是我想請教部長你覺得環境部有辦法去進行政策的統整嗎"},{"start":11914.246,"end":11914.386,"text":"OK﹖"},{"start":11929.671,"end":11947.003,"text":"謝謝部長那你在社務媒體採訪的時候也有講到四大重點的政策那其中有一點我覺得很有趣你放在第四點叫做公開首長行程那請教部長環境部有這麼多重要的政策為何你要把這個公開首長行程這件事情單獨列出來特別強調"},{"start":11948.084,"end":11974.731,"text":"報告委員其實因為我來自民間我們跟任何的產業界互動都是一個常態但是我也很多的工協會會來拜訪我那我其實過去本身是open data聯盟的會長一直推動政府要開放資料那當我變成公職了之後我希望由我先做起逐步的來所以任何人我當然我的公開行程會放在上面甚至有一些厲害相關的族群來拜訪我我也會把討論的主題把它公布出來讓大家可以知道"},{"start":11975.632,"end":11994.732,"text":"謝謝,我覺得這個部長這個概念很好,因為其實也會擔心像其他的部長有一些部長首長可能會常常時下跟一些團體阿或是財團見面可能就會造成疑慮嘛對不對所以我認為你這樣的精神很好很值得大家的這個學習喔那部長你覺得你這次的業務報告裡面有沒有缺少什麼"},{"start":11997.374,"end":12014.367,"text":"環境部的東西喔,空水廢塗屋喔,其實裡面還是有很多我不瞭解的,但是我會積極的來去學習。好,謝謝,謝謝你回答。部長,今年的碳費啊,還有氣候變遷之外,我想還有一個議題,我在你的報告裡面沒有看到,也很重要,我認為非常重要,就是塑膠公約。"},{"start":12015.828,"end":12035.612,"text":"而社交公約最後一次會議將在11月於南韓召開而且最快也有可能在年底實施請教部長這個這麼重要的公約而且影響面非常的廣為何這個報告中好像沒有提到是不小心疏漏還是刻意疏漏"},{"start":12038.444,"end":12056.465,"text":"報告委員其實現在都是草案那年底在11月在韓國這個釜山開那個會應該會有一些這個具體方案再出來那我們也在積極的關注在因應當中那當然這個檢索是一個大事情那要改變國人的習慣就需要大家一起努力那我也會積極跟我同仁來討論這個事"},{"start":12057.987,"end":12072.501,"text":"所以部長我國要因應這個塑膠工業的國家計畫有沒有這個要啟動的任何的規劃還是你只是想要請同仁大概瞭解一下因為我自己看起來這件事情是今年很重要的這個環保上面的事情我可不可以請我們許萬曙署長來報告一下"},{"start":12074.082,"end":12096.872,"text":"在塑料公約裡面他有一個國家計畫是讓我們各國提出一些計畫來這個遵循這個塑料公約的內容那目前這個國家計畫的一個草案大綱有出來那我們會依照他的大綱先把我們國內的現況做一個盤點然後再看公約的進度來找各部位一起來演商"},{"start":12098.089,"end":12120.296,"text":"所以今年會啟動嘛那除了各國家計劃之外其實最重要的還有這個資源循環促進法那現在的立法進度尤其是針對產生廢棄物的生產端失業體徵收這個資源循環促進費也更是其中的重點所以我也想要請教部長這個資源循環促進法何時才會送到立法院來"},{"start":12121.016,"end":12141.014,"text":"目前都還進行跟這個相關的厲害團體來進行溝通啦我會請他們能夠再加速一點點看能不能今年能夠送出來部長因為你剛來我要提醒你喔因為這個環境部已經說要訂立這個資源循環促進法已經非常的久了但是每次都是停留在說的階段瞭解的階段"},{"start":12142.215,"end":12169.782,"text":"然而面對到我們今年底這個塑膠公約有可能具體會要來實施最快的話年底就算晚一點我們算明年好了這樣子可以更凸顯我們國家對於這件事情的進度落後你可不可以宣誓在部長可不可以宣誓在這個本會期結束前可以將草案送到立法院因為現在我們要進行這個預告程序跟開會然後再送到行政院去做審查那我們這邊會盡快"},{"start":12171.227,"end":12189.113,"text":"緊快,所以這個會期可以嗎?因為還要到行政院審查才有辦法送出來所以你沒有辦法保證這個會期會有?我們現在下一個目標就是能夠去預告草案然後送到行政院去審查那希望你可以給一個比較具體的目標到時候也可以給本席,好嗎?"},{"start":12190.69,"end":12202.924,"text":"再來環境部在我們4月29日的時候預告空氣品質標準的第三條跟第四條其中裡面有一項非常重要的就是將PM2.5的平均值從15毫維克"},{"start":12205.026,"end":12219.122,"text":"要下調為12維克而環團認為這個新的標準並沒有達到WHO的建議也就是新指引的這個年均值是5維克請教部長為什麼我們不參照這個WHO的所定的指引"},{"start":12220.063,"end":12234.319,"text":"其實因為我們台灣我們是四面環海,我們很多的海岩,所以其實我們的背景值像花蓮也差不多最好的情況也只有到9而已。所以我們如果我們西半部呢要能夠像這個東半部一樣的話,其實整個的改變要非常非常的大。"},{"start":12235.12,"end":12258.925,"text":"這個是我們的團隊告訴我說現在我們可以到達的一個目標那我們如果要更往前的話那我有特別請他們在模擬當中有各式各樣的選項因為包含了這個重大的污染源、排放源或是汽機車其實都要很大量的改變那個是需要跨部會的合作所以我們是我個人是希望能夠再更低但是我必須考量現在我們能夠到達的一個目標"},{"start":12259.605,"end":12288.124,"text":"對我可以理解務實上這個五維克是一個比較長遠的目標但是部長之前在我們衛福部國衛院的研究也證實空污會增加這個中風死亡率以及PM2.5跟肺癌跟肺阻塞等有關當然美國環保署的研究也顯示改善空氣品質的這個成本效益非常的高可以算是非常划算的投資以美國為例90年代提高這個標準後每年減少16萬人的死亡"},{"start":12288.444,"end":12289.288,"text":"甚至在2020年的這個數字還達到了減少了23萬人"},{"start":12292.443,"end":12321.435,"text":"所以環團是認為即便是新標準卻也還是現在的殺人標準請問部長你同意嗎?基本上因為包委員那個臺灣的本身的背景值就比較高啦所以我必須說我當然是希望能夠越低越好但是其實有時候我們在做的時候有一定的難度所以這個部分呢我有特別請我們團隊持續的在各種做各種的情境模擬能不能提出一個更好更有效率的因為我們過去減了大概30%那現在要往下減其實那個成本效率都很高"},{"start":12321.735,"end":12346.244,"text":"委員部長今天的口頭報告的第12頁這個新空氣二部曲次標是提升持續提升空品邁向WHO的標準願景請教部長這個WHO已經新的指引就是五維克但是我們的願景十二維克還是比這五維克高出了兩倍半是不是很多而且這是你們的願景那假設是願景的話是不是以後我看到願景可以代表說你做不到就叫做願景"},{"start":12347.75,"end":12361.278,"text":"報告委員其實在台灣如果我們在很乾淨的地方大概都還有大概6或7維克所以其實要到以台灣而言或是我們東亞而言這種背景值就很高了所以要到真的WHO那真的是非常困難的一件事情"},{"start":12361.909,"end":12373.397,"text":"因為你們還有再來就是第12頁的時候你們的報告裡面有顯示短期是完成空氣品質標準的發布也就是我們剛剛說的15維克要降到12維克那中期你寫113年到116年報告卻寫的是13維克那要到117年的這個到120年才可以達到12維克"},{"start":12382.384,"end":12407.445,"text":"所以這讓我們感覺你訂出來這個你訂出來的一個法規可是你這個中期目標卻達不到是訂好玩的嗎?報告委員其實這個部分我有跟我們的司長好好的討論過現在正在進行各種的這個模擬演算希望能夠找到一個因為我個人是希望能夠更低啦但是我必須考量到能不能達得到所以我們是不是請我們司長快"},{"start":12408.505,"end":12431.054,"text":"對,因為你設立一個標準是12可是你現在中期這裡寫的卻是13那就代表你根本達不到那為什麼要這樣設計呢?跟委員報告,我們那個並不是說標準目前的空氣品質達到以後我們來設一個目前的標準我們可以努力的目標是12但是12呢並不是4年內就可以達到124年內我們現在就可以達到13但是要再往下降呢"},{"start":12431.654,"end":12432.215,"text":"接下來請誰等一下"},{"start":12462.694,"end":12463.375,"text":"徐欣盈委員"},{"start":12476.778,"end":12495.466,"text":"徐委員好部長好首先恭喜您當履新上任而且您素有氣象達人之稱相信除了氣候變遷的議題之外請問您對環境部的業務都還熟悉嗎"},{"start":12496.526,"end":12511.039,"text":"我現在在努力學習我當然有一部分是很熟悉但是很多一部分我還在摸索當中尤其是它的這個例如說垃圾啊循環經濟啊等等這個都是我過去比較少碰的跟委員談成我要必須跟我們的署長們學習"},{"start":12513.26,"end":12531.405,"text":"今天本席想要就部長今天的簡報第14頁有講到安靜家園、跨部會合作改善鄰近噪音還有簡報第37頁也提到了推動廢水處理節能創能及資源循環"},{"start":12532.305,"end":12550.487,"text":"就這兩方面的議題本席想來跟您就教也想給您一些建議首先第一個就是有關噪音的問題那因為本席在交通委員會有提出一個問題就是說我們這個交通的噪音"},{"start":12551.308,"end":12576.823,"text":"那這個當然交通部對於不管高速公路或鐵道邊的住戶他們噪音分貝達到一定的程度也可以做隔音牆嘛這一塊那這個交通部定的這個隔音牆要設置的噪音的這個標準它要80分貝但是有一個概念本席想在這邊溝通就是"},{"start":12577.603,"end":12605.74,"text":"比如說我們人體比如說我背一個東西一百斤的我背不動一百斤會造成我身體很大的創傷一百斤背上去我大概就垮了可能還會骨折那八公斤十公斤大家都可以背可是有一個問題就是八公斤十公斤雖然感覺好像很輕微甚至五公斤但是如果你背著不放"},{"start":12606.701,"end":12629.364,"text":"背了10天、一個月、一年、十年都一直持續不斷的那身體會不會變形?還是會變形我舉這個例子想要說的就是你噪音分貝它要80分貝嘛那我72分貝或75分貝都不達標準所以不能設置隔音牆"},{"start":12630.365,"end":12657.494,"text":"那可是你想想看一個人70分貝就在他住家他睡眠的時間哇持續8個小時然後一天一個月一年十年他住在那邊幾十年欸痛苦不堪這第一點所以為什麼有滴水穿石欸滴水誰怕我洪流我會怕啊牆牆的水柱會傷我"},{"start":12658.342,"end":12658.362,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":12680.478,"end":12706.35,"text":"我很多人就受不了他可能就憂鬱症了所以這一塊部長可不可以來演你因為交通部一定會找你那這一塊我們要來改善一定要來這個想辦法尤其他已經很接近你80分貝他是針對可能你聽到80分貝以上的你耳朵或是你整個人會受不了但是我70幾分貝的我一直達不到80分貝"},{"start":12707.29,"end":12716.825,"text":"他continuous他持續不斷那就是滴水穿石的原理那怎麼受得了我們的民眾這一塊就受苦啊"},{"start":12718.069,"end":12737.147,"text":"可以嗎?部長給我正面的回應吧我自己在家裡要是鄰居唱KTV40分貝我都受不了了太好了所以我深有同感那當然這個部分我會跟交通部來做協調到底要領域出跟民眾有關的法案不是協調他現在看你們的設定標準是你們他說是環保"},{"start":12738.468,"end":12762.741,"text":"環保在社的 報告員我們了解一下 謝謝第二個問題還有一點時間就是我們大家都非常認同我們要愛護我們的環境那臺灣很多的河川的污染我相信您上任一定會碰到很多河川的污染我們真的要愛護我們的環境現在有很多地方這個河川污染長期啊"},{"start":12765.492,"end":12765.512,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":12785.623,"end":12811.578,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":12813.14,"end":12822.935,"text":"這個環保局地方一直查無佈法可是居民一直反映我們甚至看到死魚有一些案件那這個怎麼辦"},{"start":12825.745,"end":12847.163,"text":"報告委員其實這個部分唯一解決的方法就是在河川多設這個感測器然後即時的這個監控那這個一有問題馬上先知道然後馬上去做處理那這個在地方中央可以補助設置這些的經費目前已經有了像新竹那幾個他們有幾個年輕朋友用LAS有一個社群叫LAS就幫助解決了新竹很多的問題"},{"start":12847.904,"end":12849.025,"text":"謝謝徐欣盈委員的發言接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":12880.533,"end":12883.435,"text":"主席,是不是請我們彭部長。請彭部長。林委員好。部長,今天一個早上的這個質詢令我寡慕相看,因為所有的業務都是你本人親自回答。看起來很認真,而且也相當的有一定程度的專業。我不認為你說你剛來,看起來好像很賢手。"},{"start":12904.048,"end":12922.761,"text":"不過我想要跟你們大家就這個氣候變遷等等的探費等等的討論但我今天要跟你談一點不一樣的就是說上個月食藥署在公布這個邊境查驗不合格的產品其中有一項是頂呱呱從中國進口的這個漢堡盒結果該產品檢測檢驗的畜酸測試結果榮出達到1132的ppm比標準足足多了37倍"},{"start":12933.468,"end":12934.269,"text":"你有看到這個新聞嗎?"},{"start":12934.269,"end":12945.963,"text":"有 有不過我今天要說的是比這個還要更嚴重的我要說的是PFAS這個化學物質家族台灣源頭的管制遠遠落後於國際的管制"},{"start":12949.537,"end":12970.539,"text":"那這個問題事實上你們今天的業務報告裡面也講了一些那我先跟你就這個議題再深入的討論我們這麼的落後於國際的規範甚至連食品包材都沒有規範許多消費性的民生商品都可以發現有化學物質家族這個化學物質家族"},{"start":12971.059,"end":12994.7,"text":"但是整個國家不管你這個環境部門還是衛生部門全部都沒有積極的在管制讓我們的人民在日常生活當中輕易的都可以接觸到這個對環境、對人體健康影響極大的PFAS的化學物質更何況還是食品包裝的包材還有大家天天在吃的這個一次性的使用的這個紙袋等等"},{"start":12995.781,"end":13009.905,"text":"大家都知道PFOS是化學家族的一個大家族,它其中最知名的物質就是PFOs,還有等等啦,它的家族的產品,它的化學物質有超過12000多種。"},{"start":13011.988,"end":13029.172,"text":"﹗"},{"start":13029.312,"end":13034.197,"text":"包括不沾鍋包括防油的紙袋紙盒那我們身體上穿戴也很多防水衣褲那消防器材等等都含有PFAS的這個化學物質"},{"start":13044.787,"end":13073.389,"text":"那這個化學物質它帶有侵水機所以它在自然環境中不但幾乎不可能消失而且會跟著水在地球到處滲透它進入我們的土壤到我們的食物鏈最後都到人體裡面來這個不容易分解的特性讓PFAS在環境中的濃度對生物的危害這個累積會不斷的累積而放大"},{"start":13074.17,"end":13089.584,"text":"那根據瑞典斯的哥爾摩大學一篇研究光是PFAS的四個家族裡面的這四種PFOS、PFO、PFHXS、PFHS、還有PFNA"},{"start":13091.065,"end":13112.836,"text":"這四種他在雨水中的濃度都已經超過美國飲用水終生健康的這個建議值在丹麥他飲用水的限值在歐洲地表水的環境品質標準所以他在斯德哥摩的研究又說他都超過了這些標準"},{"start":13114.226,"end":13140.014,"text":"那PFAS無所不在其實都被民眾吃進去我們都吃下去了2021的一份一次性的包裝永久化學殘留的報告調查歐盟有6個國家他們做了一次性食品包裝或是餐具當中是不是含有PFAS的狀況的調查結果檢測42個項目"},{"start":13144.212,"end":13152.192,"text":"有多少的檢出你知道嗎?部長你知道嗎?猜猜看這叫你回答出來我覺得太困難了你猜一下"},{"start":13153.763,"end":13173.811,"text":"六個歐盟六個國家檢測四十二個有多少檢出你知道嗎?應該比例很高九成以上三十二個這是2021年到了2023年另一份報告他收集了連台灣在內十七個國家一百一十九個食品包裝容器"},{"start":13174.611,"end":13176.411,"text":"結果超過一半有64個樣本剪出含有PFAS所以你知道臺灣食品包裝一次性的包裝包括我們可能吃水煎包或者吃這個我忘了叫什麼名字等等"},{"start":13199.277,"end":13222.59,"text":"便當盒、咖啡杯、飲料如果是紙杯的大概都全部有塗層了這使用PFAS的可能性都很大那我們現在講說大家都在用我們有人一天不是用一個你一天吃兩個便當再加上早餐外帶的早餐盒再加上素食店再喝咖啡我想很多人一天用了5個6個7個8個9個10個都含有PFAS那我們就要來問了"},{"start":13227.254,"end":13228.019,"text":"批發對人體的危害風險有多大?"},{"start":13230.865,"end":13257.785,"text":"很大報告委員我最近其實特別看了幾個資料就是說我們的有幾個水庫水質檢測那個PFAS真的很高我有看到你的報告裡面有寫但你先聽我說我們從美國疾病管制中心他在2011到2012年這個已經是十幾年前了他們就收集的資料報告顯示97%的美國人的血液當中含有PFAS"},{"start":13258.425,"end":13262.306,"text":"歐洲有一個人類生物監測計畫他從2014監測到2021針對歐洲9個國家12歲到18歲的青年人總共有1957個血清樣本他們檢測12種PFAS物質的含量"},{"start":13280.733,"end":13297.342,"text":"結果有14.3%的樣本他的血液中PFAS的濃度超過歐洲食品安全局建議的安全標準12到18歲多年輕啊"},{"start":13298.632,"end":13299.733,"text":"各位,我們的年紀都比年輕人還要更大,我們吃進去了更多喔!那我們再看"},{"start":13313.008,"end":13322.753,"text":"2023年去年日本日本研究調查東京他只做多摩多摩地區650位居民的協議中的PFOS濃度發現PFOS和PFO的平均濃度是全國平均值的2.4倍所以東京都聽就馬上停用他們多摩地區內"},{"start":13339.682,"end":13359.055,"text":"40個水井因為在這些水源當中檢測出這個PFOS物質那PFOS大家我們都說這個風險在哪裡這兩大化學物質裡面最有名的PFOS裡面最有名的就是PFOA和PFOS就是PFOA和PFOS我剛剛講的都是PFOA和PFOS"},{"start":13360.956,"end":13387.501,"text":"他已有足夠的研究證明他跟部分疾病是高度相關包括甲狀腺疾病、腎臟癌、肝損傷、血脂的濃度、心血管疾病、睪丸癌、乳癌降低女性生育率還有最重要的接觸胎兒後對胎兒有很多短中長期的影響那我的意思是說"},{"start":13389.821,"end":13405.869,"text":"臺灣在下保定我希望你是第一個高度而關心而且積極管制的部長過去的臺灣不管是衛生單位不管是環境部門都沒有在下都沒有在"},{"start":13409.017,"end":13432.338,"text":"報告委員這個部分因為我讀了報告我也嚇一跳就是這幾天我再跟你報告一下因為你就看這個水質報告而已那還沒有列管那只是增加一個檢測而已我現在講說PFAS在台灣我們的管制不足遠遠落後於國際公約而且我剛剛講PFAS所造成的危害逐漸被各國這個都所共識"},{"start":13435.22,"end":13459.613,"text":"所有的國家都已經紛紛的領先施德克爾摩公約的管制喔施德克爾摩公約他的列管已經是國際上管制的最低標準很多國家的管制標準都高於施德克爾摩公約而我們我們連施德克爾摩公約都還遠遠落後於公約之後"},{"start":13464.728,"end":13483.523,"text":"我都說這個國際公約是最弱或最低標準我們連最低標準還看不到車尾燈啊我就講最低標準就好了斯德哥爾摩公約列管了PFAS家族下的PFOS、PFO還有PFHXS"},{"start":13485.504,"end":13508.233,"text":"那最早被列管的PFORCE家族是以附有CAS的號碼的方式列出8種PFORCE家族我國只有跟進列管幾種你知道嗎這是最有名的而且危害相對風險最高的8種我們列管了幾種你知道嗎業務單位說我覺得這個叫部長回答太難了"},{"start":13509.141,"end":13516.023,"text":"跟委員報告,原來是4種,那我們在4月27再公告了147種你現在現在講講你有聽到我在講嗎啦我在問你的是PFOS8種列管的3種你講的4種是加了PFOA裡面1種"},{"start":13534.468,"end":13547.944,"text":"你只列管了一種可是人家光是PFO家族有364種你只列管了一種PFO是八種你只列管了三種PFO364種你只列管了一種"},{"start":13551.488,"end":13555.57,"text":"你講的100加起來100多是今年斯德哥爾摩公約在列管PFHXS化學物質147種這147種你們因為他一次列管公佈所有清單我們才跟進把PFHXS列管全部"},{"start":13578.684,"end":13600.803,"text":"所以你是今年才加了這一個物質列管的147種最嚴重的大家最常用的你只列管4種可是全部有364加8種根本報告這部分我們正在演繹當中我也有看到啦我有看到今天的報告啦現在我要再請部長"},{"start":13602.574,"end":13621.552,"text":"就是說全部PFAS這一些化學物質大概有一萬兩千多種根據我剛剛的報告就是說公約、明定三大要列管的化學物質這個就是PFOS、PFH、XS"},{"start":13625.216,"end":13632.843,"text":"這三大是公約明確它是最低標準就是說這三種一定要管有519種加起來519種一定要列管可是我們加起來就只有151種遠遠落後於國際最低標準的公約標準而公約是全世界各國管制裡面的最低標準我們看不到人家的車尾燈"},{"start":13649.858,"end":13650.819,"text":"我們光是這三種化學物質還少了368種可不可以一併馬上列管"},{"start":13657.493,"end":13682.619,"text":"報告委員這個其實這個STOCKHOLM的這個公約是建議出來但是我們也觀察其他的國家最低標準對那我們會持續的保持關注所以委員的建議不是關注啦要列管啦報告委員能不能讓我補充一下我們從這個禮拜一開始應該是昨天我們邀請了瑞典的三位專家他就是起草那個好啦沒關係啦你跟我講你們什麼時候要列管啦"},{"start":13685.982,"end":13703.941,"text":"還沒有列入管理的一併列管啊我們會按照這個程序來給他做延伸好我再去救救部長保證這是你可能比較沒有關注到的但我再問你跟上司的各模公約是最低標準但是我們還要不要忘了我們有自己的法律啊"},{"start":13704.542,"end":13713.529,"text":"我們的讀管法做的應該根據讀管法來做的事情還很多我們既有化學物質有兩萬種化學物質列冊但是其中裡面我們既有化學物質裡面有821種屬於PFAS這個大家族"},{"start":13724.842,"end":13739.171,"text":"根據獨觀法的定義只有建置於既有化學物質清澈的化學物質才叫做既有化學物質所以一萬兩千多個PFAS的化學物質我們既有化學物質有821個"},{"start":13741.152,"end":13760.443,"text":"所以對我國而言只有這821種的PFAS才叫做既有的PFAS那其他一萬一千多種沒有列入既有化學物質清澈的PFAS都是新的PFAS新的化學物質那根據毒性化學物質管理法第30條"},{"start":13761.544,"end":13780.708,"text":"﹗"},{"start":13781.128,"end":13809.695,"text":"PFOA在人體中半衰期要3.5年可是我們天天在吃啊每天吃啊你這一天吃的要3.5年明天吃的又要3.5年其實你永遠都代謝不完永遠都存在所以它在PFAS在環境當中的半衰期則相當長比如說我剛剛講的PFOA在人體內要3.5年但是它在水體中猜猜看要多少年才會衰減一半猜猜看啊"},{"start":13810.663,"end":13834.804,"text":"我知道這有點難水體中要9292年才會衰減一半所以對生物體的危害有所累積對人體環境影響大這樣的特性和風險相當相當的大所以我們化學署在核准登錄的時候都應該按照獨管法第31條"},{"start":13836.525,"end":13860.63,"text":"中央主管機關評估新化學物質之特性有符合毒性或關注化學物質定義之餘者都應該在核准登錄時付予付款要求提供化學物質危害資訊更新登錄相關報告資料或定期申報運作情形必要時要禁止或限制其運作我知道你們這個已經對今年公佈的這個PFHX"},{"start":13866.332,"end":13888.722,"text":"147種你們已經登錄為第一類的毒性化學物質那其他相對確定的毒性化學物質管制當然比關注化學物質還要高那其他如果你還沒有辦法我們認為說相對的面對還有這麼多種一萬一千多種的批法史上的風險我們要再依據現有的法規"},{"start":13890.083,"end":13909.589,"text":"我希望彭啟明部長你是能夠明確的制定PFAS的管理政策完善PFAS的定義和這個判定方式來指引執法人員順暢面對舉審查新的PFAS申請登錄避免PFAS在未經管制下進入市場所以"},{"start":13910.97,"end":13926.078,"text":"我們在這裡很具體的要求根據這個環境部篩選認定毒性及關注化學物質的作業原則的第6條的關注化學物質篩選的認定原則的第二款"},{"start":13927.139,"end":13953.536,"text":"化學物質具廣泛終端消費者或使用於民生消費品可能危害人體健康或污染環境生態之餘者我們要求其他剩下的都要公告列管委關注化學物質好謝謝委員委員的意見我會來處理然後我們定期再跟委員回報知識體大事實你知道你們事實上你們"},{"start":13954.642,"end":13978.627,"text":"你們這個報告我是不滿意第51頁你們說從112年的調查結果全服PFAS家族就全服碗機物質已經完成第二輪調查其實你們是調查飲用水水質調查裡面而你們這個調查來講沒有列管你們飲用水水質調查報告就沒有把你們列管的這一些東西"},{"start":13979.807,"end":13981.79,"text":"要放入例行性常規性應檢測項目你們列為應檢測項目都沒有"},{"start":13988.755,"end":14009.351,"text":"水源水質類你們是委外研究委外研究人一家不二家做一家但你們沒有列為常規應固定監測應列為這個檢測項目之一你們沒有而且我剛剛講日本人人家做到人體危害所以人體健康調查也有了"},{"start":14010.311,"end":14027.251,"text":"世界各國都在救人體健康風險我們到底這個環境風險的已經到多高了你們在水質水源保護區算是相對上游的那一般下游如何環境上的風險他已經影響危害有多大"},{"start":14027.911,"end":14055.166,"text":"在人體的健康風險裡面臺灣的調查報告本土的數據研究在哪裡我們通通落後管制行為也落後什麼都落後我今天就還沒有辦法因為時間有限沒有辦法就你們說明報告再就教於你啦但是我希望部長你是第一個正式面對這些事情而且願意去制定管制的這個政策有效的管理的第一個部長可以嗎"},{"start":14055.646,"end":14072.993,"text":"可以我盡量來做好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員的發言接下來請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在接下來請吳春成委員吳春成委員吳春成委員不在接下來請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":14086.44,"end":14101.055,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長請彭部長劉委員好部長好部長你算是第二任的環境部的部長是先向你恭喜謝謝然後也請教部長"},{"start":14103.385,"end":14132.304,"text":"前一任的薛部長就職超一年的時間那之前就是環保署那為什麼要把環保署升格成為環境部部長知道嗎當然啦這個我知道的是之前有環境資源部更多更廣泛那升格成環境部當然他其實要必須在業務職長裡面更能夠跟這個更多職員的一個合作所以目前環境部來說的話包含他們的職能職長還有預算都有顯著的提升"},{"start":14133.965,"end":14161.995,"text":"可以先具體簡單二要的重點式的說明嗎?為什麼要把環保署提升個變成環境部當然我認為這個是責任的開始因為這個環境部他必須要做的工作就比以前的署還要來的多很多多什麼?例如說這個空水廢土屋要更明確然後甚至有加了氣候變遷在裡面所以我個人認為這個環境部已經有點像是這個環境與氣候部的這種感覺他跟過去環保署是完全不一樣的"},{"start":14164.072,"end":14190.113,"text":"我還是期待部長可以再多了解一下不是責任開始的原本環保署有責任不會說環保署之前沒有責任現在變環境部才是責任的開始應該不是這樣好不好你知道環保署變成環境部是在哪一個朝委的時候把他升格起來的嗎就是六會員我們為什麼都要這樣笑開會要慎重尊重一點"},{"start":14192.595,"end":14204.45,"text":"那請問部長你貴庚我53歲53歲那比姚委員還年輕很多我為什麼要這麼問因為你我有拜託你接受這個"},{"start":14205.683,"end":14227.442,"text":"媒體的這樣的一個採訪那你有特別提到說三年後有一件重要事情就是要推動環境部的數位轉型嘛對不對還有這個高階主管、乃至科長都必須上這個數位轉型的課程目標一年獲得能力要能夠被民間挖角沒有錯吧?是是這是一個理想要把理想"},{"start":14228.877,"end":14251.161,"text":"轉成實際的行動你有去test你知道我們剛剛講的已經擴大了這樣的一個服務的這個這個政策執行的量能嘛對不對所以針對重要的高階主管應該是所謂的這個私屬單位主管本來是科長嘛那不曉得私屬的主管平均年齡多少嗎"},{"start":14252.061,"end":14273.213,"text":"大概如果主管的話大概是5959歲59歲還大你的年齡有6歲以上對不對沒錯沒錯然後你還希望他們趕快的來進修學習然後專管在主管去專精相關的數位AI大數據的知識甚至到一年後還要被民間挖角"},{"start":14275.22,"end":14300.855,"text":"報告委員其實他們都很優秀但是我也發現他們被很多事情綁住所以其實我自己本身也用到很多AI的工具我希望大家能夠熟悉甚至主管熟悉的時候在帶我們的部署的時候可以用到更多的工具讓我們的同仁不要那麼的辛苦啦我們是要用這種工具為主那至於會不會寫程式其實現在CHPT會幫我們寫程式了所以其實這個各位委員不用那麼擔心我相信大家有這個能力"},{"start":14301.311,"end":14325.558,"text":"我沒有擔心而且我也不反對依照這樣的一個平均年齡要來讓他們做這些事情坦白講如果願意自我提升然後願意自己再進化自己那當然是好事一樁但是我要讓部長看一個數據你知道這一個公務人員建三年離職的人數不然退休跟解雇"},{"start":14326.434,"end":14343.867,"text":"一百零九年是一九六九一一年是二一九二一直到一百一十一年是二四六九那去年還沒有出來那為什麼會這個樣子你們面對到少子化的衝擊如果要要如何去招攬比較年輕留住年輕的人才這是所有部會面對到重要的課題"},{"start":14345.668,"end":14369.998,"text":"這離職率這麼高然後持續晚上再攀升那我們部長又期待經過相關的這些數位轉型的課程讓各位可以一年後被民間挖財這個有點衝突跟矛盾對與不對見仁見智但是我只是要讓你知道有這樣的狀況在發生所以過去民間的利益銀行在做相關的分析就是說被認為這個鐵飯碗的公子現在出現這種逃離潮"},{"start":14373.613,"end":14393.943,"text":"這是在政府必須面對非常重要的課題要如果去做相關的因應所以在部長你的帶領之下要將這個數位能力納入這個環境部中我想應該是應該要廣泛的針對基層人員基於相關的進修的這個資源改善這種升遷的環境反而會比較來的實際你認不認同"},{"start":14395.544,"end":14424.358,"text":"報告委員其實我接觸到我的同仁我舉例我來自民間我們平常下班就不會賴來賴去的可是我發現我們公部門都很辛苦我都很為他們委屈啦所以我是希望有更好的工具讓我們工作上不要那麼的操勞有一個比較好的生活那另外一個就是說其實他們的素養能力提高他們都非常優秀到民間去都是一個高階主管而且民間的待遇也都很好所以我個人來說的話數位轉型就是給他們一個很好的鼓勵他們具有像民間一樣的這個才能"},{"start":14424.798,"end":14442.566,"text":"所以這個是我是認為是一種鼓勵的措施那有這種公司的這種交流當然對於我們政府發展是一個好事對所以我支持啦齁我是支持但是是不是可以在全面的去做這樣的思考尤其是基層的工人員更應該給他們更多這樣學習的一個資源跟課程嘛多多鼓勵嘛"},{"start":14443.406,"end":14462.226,"text":"甚至連約聘顧的都應該鼓勵他們可以去參與高普考讓政府可以留住更多人才甚至於在你環境部培訓的時間真的有達到這樣的一個level的時候他被民間挖角的時候那我們也留住了相關的一定的比例所以就不會這種離子人潮一直在出走"},{"start":14463.447,"end":14489.33,"text":"這個我相信離職人潮除了一個社會上外面的工作機會比公部門好很多之外當然還有一些制度上的東西那委員提到的這個建議其實賴總統現在卓院長就是AI內閣當然那個不是人工智慧內閣但是其實現在我所知道的像卓院長也都去上了AI的課我們很多的部位都在上這個人工智慧的課所以這個是我認為未來是每個人都要去學人工智慧數位轉型這是必要的"},{"start":14489.964,"end":14509.156,"text":"對啦 所以我支持嘛我不反對但是我是覺得說從基層的應該從更廣的面向不是只有這些主管級來面對這樣的一個課程的一個訓練嘛我會從兩個一個是主管要學什麼例如說主管我不會要他們寫程式他們會進行一些數據分析如果人家他們要寫局長、署長要寫你也應該讓他們有這個表現的機會啊"},{"start":14511.297,"end":14539.256,"text":"他們有的很厲害我知道啦他們可以直接跟部長一樣來帶動嘛但是我還是希望給基層的給約聘顧的有更多這樣的一個學習的資源啦沒問題這個我會來做好那另外一個我再請教部長你上任這個環境部一個蠻大的任務嘛就所謂的淨零碳排和碳匯的問題嘛對不對那你接受訪問的時候你說碳匯進度接下來一定要加速前進然後也要特別注意氣候變遷行程的通貨膨脹問題"},{"start":14541.498,"end":14567.436,"text":"來自於不會成為社會的負擔這非常重要但是我覺得不是只有加速可能要立刻為什麼我們講過去都在講說這個藍領的勞工階層白領在做辦公室那現在出現了一種叫做綠領綠領的新名詞部長應該知道吧知道這個就是經過變遷的因應法以及碳會所產生的這個新興的職業然後民間現在有置辦叫永續管理師碳製程"},{"start":14575.495,"end":14575.795,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14586.929,"end":14614.226,"text":"這個其實它是屬於自己的學習啦那環境部不會去做認證當然有些可能民眾想要自己學的特別多我們都尊重但是我們提醒民眾要慎選因為這個課程除了是說碳的盤查跟驗證特別是驗證的部分因為氣候變遷因應法必須來我們這個部內去受訓之外其他大多數都是這個民眾自己去學習的那我們都尊重但是提醒民眾要慎選"},{"start":14615.307,"end":14620.019,"text":"謝謝部長提醒民眾要勝選請問部長如果我要去上我該如何勝選"},{"start":14621.712,"end":14645.36,"text":"其實基本上這些課程呢我個人認為都是一個綠領那未來我有跟我們同仁討論說未來這個綠領他到最後就位的橋接是不是有一些更好的這個建議這個是我們未來可以來思考來推動的因為目前的這個上了課然後上了課也沒有不見得有工作機會那這個就會造成這個年輕朋友的這個失望所以這個部門會記錄你有沒有辦法如何慎選"},{"start":14646.628,"end":14647.089,"text":"社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":14665.422,"end":14678.054,"text":"你看齁 這個陳姓會計師他有會計師的執照他已經報名參加民間機構的ESG近年的永續管理師的培訓課程他付了24萬事後發現該機構沒有經過國際組織認證無法核發相關的證照那花一大筆錢卻只換來一張結訓證書無助於轉職所以他不夠勝選"},{"start":14689.318,"end":14713.074,"text":"沒錯沒錯沒錯因為這個東西就是一個結訓你去學習這個東西沒有一個國際的機構會給你這樣的證照的是所以他就是不夠慎重也不夠慎選對好所以他當到會計師還這樣基本上這個東西其實第二件森林系的大師的王同學想考取淨零探選相關證照因為學校無相關"},{"start":14716.365,"end":14742.843,"text":"到外面的機構上課拿到證明所以只能安慰自己上課證明應能至少當作求職的敲門磚所以他也不夠慎選基本上我們環境國家環境學院部內的其實他都有開放相關的課程所以像這個大社的同學他其實可以到我們部內的相關的課程可以來上不會花那麼多錢所以到我們部內的相關課程來上上完之後可以有認證"},{"start":14744.929,"end":14750.067,"text":"有證明,有證明,也是叫證明,就跟陳國立律師拿到的這個證明到底是一樣啊?"},{"start":14751.212,"end":14777.313,"text":"我們是公部門的證明所以公部門的證明就是會超越過民間的證明這個其實還是要從他實際上的量能啦現在基本上這個是市場機制有些就像說有人去彈鋼琴一個小時一萬塊有的一小時五百塊這個就看個人的這個需求我們沒有辦法去限制人家做什麼啦但是如果你這麼講說你們是公部門總是優於民間所辦的相關的課程那會一窩窩能都跑到你們這邊來喔"},{"start":14778.674,"end":14802.659,"text":"基本上也報告委員其實有些民間的機構辦的這個課程也非常的不錯但是這個必須我們是公部門必須我們有公部門的這個提供我們例如說給年輕朋友價格比較低不是不是不是部長我要跟你表達應該不是這樣啦齁如果從你所講的所謂的勝選嘛那陳貴希斯這個例子就是他不夠慎重的選擇嘛才會發生花了24萬只有得到一個所謂的一個結線的證書嘛"},{"start":14804.979,"end":14807.901,"text":"來到你們公部門,不用花到24萬嗎?"},{"start":14807.901,"end":14818.846,"text":"不用 不用嗎?他可以得到什麼樣的跟他不一樣的證書?公部門的﹖環境部的等於是結業證書﹖你們叫結業證書嗎?他們叫結訓證書嗎?差異就是環境部頒的這個證書又與民間的那張證書嗎?"},{"start":14826.571,"end":14851.842,"text":"報告委員這個一頁均相關的就是當然一頭熱啦但是我必須透過委員跟大家知道其實這個目前國際上並沒有一個標準的證書是沒有當然你可以去拿到一個什麼永續學院就大學開的那個就是一個碩士的學程所以經過這些淨零碳白的相關的課程啦認證啦品質啦環境部要不要要不要要不要來面對然後看與如何來做納管"},{"start":14852.422,"end":14872.342,"text":"報告委員兩部分一個是ISO的查驗證要符合我們氣候變遷因應法我們其實有納管例如說我們的查驗證的人員大概有一百多人那個有納管他要來上課但是如果去上這個所謂的ESG相關的那個就屬於個人自願的去學習那當然我們有額外開一個課關於來了解這個淨零或氣候變遷的"},{"start":14874.226,"end":14897.159,"text":"就是了解嘛,對不對,完了之後就是一個結業證書嗎?沒錯,現在大概都是這樣。對,那你們跟人家收多少錢?一天一千塊。一天一千塊,總共要上三百六十五天。沒有沒有沒有,我們有兩天到五天的班,就五類的班,那兩天到五天的班,是這樣子。所以就可以領得職業結業證書。那大學生憑學生證是不用錢,他只要保證金考試及格就…"},{"start":14897.719,"end":14921.68,"text":"所以我拿這張證書是環境部頒給我的我花了這筆錢之後我可以就叫做我叫做探教育師我可以就叫做探教育師目前沒有這樣的東西所以基本上要勝選不然不然現在民間有叫永續管理師還有資產管理師還有探教育師然後我都來跟你環境部上這些課程花了一天三天五天花了三五千之後我是環境部認證的"},{"start":14923.261,"end":14942.877,"text":"可以嗎?可以嗎?我不這麼講嘛我就直接在我的我的我的我的我的我的名片裡面寫說我是經過你環境部認證的但是認證什麼沒有寫就只有寫認證但是我覺得什麼事我們有證明而已沒有認證因為這個東西要到這樣的水準是另外一件一個一個這樣會計師這樣的行列目前全世界都還沒有針對氣候變遷的一種職業的執照"},{"start":14945.439,"end":14957.03,"text":"所以我才希望說部長可能要立刻來面對這個事情嘛該民間所舉辦的相關的課程跟這樣的一個範圍領籌有關係的應該是要準備來其實報告委員這個其實就是臺灣社會對於這個ESG一頭熱啦熱的有點過熱了所以引發這個很多民間的就希望用這個方式來上課所以環境部該不該把關嘛"},{"start":14968.926,"end":14997.681,"text":"呃我會來跟我們同仁來好好討論一下為什麼會直銷那個呃留言報告不是因為這個事情因為主要涉及到外面補習類似以前的補習班的模式啊對啦競爭的關係才造成這樣的結果不過因為我們開班的目的只是為了提供現在大因為我們綠領人才需求很因切所以我們希望這個部分去平衡這個市場那至於剛剛部長提的我們現在就是有幾個機構我們會來可能做一些協商瞭解大家的運作模式啦因為這個剛剛部長提到這個品質高低事實上是差蠻多的對"},{"start":14998.261,"end":15022.214,"text":"府應該有針對這些補習的場合也有去做了解嗎?甚至人家有在做相關的一些管理嗎?那環境部針對淨零碳排的相關這些課程應該也要擔起相關的責任吧?包括我有跟我們院長特別討論說我們找一些比較好的這個口碑還有他的聲譽比較好做得不錯的一些我們一起來研商能夠建立一個好的綠林的制度"},{"start":15023.882,"end":15024.062,"text":"但是我們的確有發現這樣的情況"},{"start":15048.19,"end":15050.352,"text":"接下來請中嘉賓委員、中嘉賓委員、中嘉賓委員不在接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":15087.92,"end":15103.214,"text":"謝謝主席。謝謝主席。主席我請一下彭部長。請彭部長。部長我就是年紀大於很多的羊羊。部長剛剛講了"},{"start":15105.669,"end":15127.027,"text":"環境部大概就是有一點環境氣候部的味道了所以我就先跟部長談一下減碳的問題其實我們減碳他大概需要多管齊下包括林地的保護"},{"start":15130.49,"end":15153.249,"text":"注目的種植、發展綠能、減少廢棄物包括支援循環等等都必須要去做聯合國在去年底有示警就是2030年必須要減少42%的碳排放才能夠將全球暖化"},{"start":15154.827,"end":15168.475,"text":"的狀況下的情況控制在升溫1.5度這個還蠻嚴重的但是我們環境部目前的目標是到2030年減少25%到28%跟42其實差距還蠻大的部長有沒有什麼"},{"start":15180.819,"end":15197.71,"text":"報告委員其實我們臺灣是24加解1國際上大概是40幾到50左右那當然這個東西有些國家訂了不見得達得到所以我一直想我一直也會跟很多人談到說其實我參加聯合國會議這麼多次其實也觀察到"},{"start":15198.71,"end":15215.537,"text":"很多的朋友都在說都做不到這個目標2050年進行碳排是一個很難做到的目標但是因為很難做到所以我們要很努力當成是一個目標在做那我們台灣的24加減1的確是稍微慢這個國際的一個標準但是其實跟我們"},{"start":15216.437,"end":15238.326,"text":"而且部長還有一個問題就是當然每一個國家定的標準包括每一個他定的標準都不一定可以達到年份以什麼年為減碳的標準都不一樣對不對那其實我們定的也不一定就一定可以達到沒錯對不對沒錯所以"},{"start":15240.69,"end":15254.901,"text":"我提這個呢就是希望提醒部長就是我們已經算是跟聯合國市警的%數已經算是相對低了我們務必要在2030打到"},{"start":15258.723,"end":15285.102,"text":"24加減1也好,25到28也好,就是盡可能的這個有關大氣的氣候變化所以這個可能在部長任內應該要努力去做其實減少碳排有一個很重要的關鍵就是再生能源的發展"},{"start":15286.448,"end":15293.413,"text":"可是我們就是說國際能源總署建議假如說要在2050"},{"start":15295.555,"end":15308.703,"text":"當然部長剛剛講的本席是認同的就是說這是一個理想一個目標可是我們還是以2050來做論述假如說要在2050完成淨零碳排的話2030必須要有60%的電能是屬於再生能源"},{"start":15318.905,"end":15345.431,"text":"可是根據經濟部的能源署統計2023年就到去年臺灣不到10%的電力是再生能源發電所以這些資料都告訴我們其實臺灣要距離淨零碳排是還有很長的路要走因為綠能發展的部分可能以"},{"start":15346.551,"end":15370.191,"text":"以經濟部為主,你這邊可能也只是配合那部長你對於上任以後近鄰碳排的中長期目標是什麼?怎麼落實?有什麼想法嗎?報告委員其實我們這個環境部在整個近鄰碳排有12項關鍵戰略裡面只有兩個一個是近鄰綠生活還有一個就是資源循環的部分"},{"start":15371.432,"end":15392.151,"text":"這個在裡面說真的是比較小但是有一個責任卻是在我們身上我們必須要控管全球的我們全台灣的這個溫室氣體的減碳的這個目標所以這件事情委員可能給我壓力可是又是在各個部會所以我會積極的跟各個部會來協商尤其是我們下半年要訂2026到2030年真的管制目標"},{"start":15392.771,"end":15411.952,"text":"所以說真的這個壓力蠻大的那這個都需要跨部會的一直不斷的跟各個部會來討論希望你可以靠一點這個的確是一個很艱鉅的任務啦我覺得新內閣在於橫向的協調跟合作上真的是必須要做到很落實"},{"start":15413.233,"end":15413.814,"text":"那部長剛剛講到"},{"start":15438.85,"end":15449.278,"text":"進零轉型的12項關鍵戰略,那我就直接跳到這一題。就是我們有一個資源循環零廢棄,12項戰略裡面有一項這樣。"},{"start":15460.455,"end":15486.911,"text":"那我覺得麻煩部長跟我們部裡面的同仁就我看到的資料長期以來一樣是離島縣可是金門的資源回收率常常基於全國的前三名可是澎湖卻是後半端這個能不能請部裡面"},{"start":15491.611,"end":15492.912,"text":"國際社會福利及衛生環境委員"},{"start":15511.451,"end":15538.136,"text":"在澎湖離島又比較特殊部長離島目前的垃圾都是運回來臺灣那個成本是很高的所以我說我提這個問題大會影響到淨零轉型小會影響到我們的預算支出這個能不能請部裡面跟"},{"start":15541.478,"end":15541.698,"text":"為什麼一樣是離島縣、金門"},{"start":15557.93,"end":15579.678,"text":"回收率常常是全台的前三名那澎湖卻是末段版這個當然可能縣裡面有遇到一些問題能不能請部這邊看應該增加設備、應該增加人力或者是應該怎麼落實這個問題總是要解決我們請支援選手來協助輔導好"},{"start":15584.738,"end":15610.686,"text":"市長不好意思在最後一個問題就是環境部現在對於公共污水下水道量能比較不普及的非都市地區然後在水體具有水質影響敏感的河段或海域有推動示範"},{"start":15612.245,"end":15612.506,"text":"示範場協力的一個計畫"},{"start":15618.64,"end":15645.76,"text":"我有先問過就是這個計畫是屬於競爭型的沒錯競爭型我能不能請部長研究看看就是由離島先行來推動因為競爭型的離島因為礙於公務部門的人力的問題所以通常競爭不過所以能不能那澎湖四面都是海"},{"start":15647.353,"end":15660.673,"text":"我們也一直在海洋環境的保護上下了很多功夫可不可以請部長這個演繹一下在全國競爭型以外"},{"start":15662.13,"end":15675.339,"text":"我們澎湖先讓你們當成示範區也好、試驗區也好。我們先在澎湖找一個島來做做看。好沒問題。這個我們會跟澎湖環保局來討論看看。我們部內會協助。"},{"start":15679.082,"end":15695.568,"text":"因為我覺得這個計畫是非常好只是說他競爭型的有的時候對於偏遠離島的縣市他在全國的競爭上會比較吃虧那這個就部長就跟環保局做溝通好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝楊耀委員"},{"start":15706.793,"end":15729.945,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員陳昭芝、邱振鈞、盧憲伊所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午9點繼續開會"},{"start":15744.892,"end":15771.869,"text":"因為他們三個專家在砍殺,你要不要過去跟他們握握手,讓我們把他就是委員關進來,就是立刻關進來現在去喔?看你的時間,你跟馬仔看什麼事情?因為他下午要我去拜訪立委,我有空就去,你下午我們都會在那裡,在砍殺飯店啊幾點到幾點?"},{"start":15773.571,"end":15774.897,"text":"我應該消息兩分報息兩分"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}