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"start":111.243,"end":118.768,"text":"在從我們從國家安全優先的考量的角度下是可以用N-1來看這件事情的這一次會不會用這個"},{"start":120.589,"end":141.481,"text":"這個是我給經濟部的建議你給經濟部的建議好那為什麼就在最近川普川普總統還有另外美國的一位發言人他們都講我們以後不用仰賴台灣了我們美國就有最新最好的晶片所以"},{"start":144.875,"end":161.577,"text":"本席在這裡希望我們的主委未來在投審會的時候一定要堅持立場原則我們的護國神山絕對不能夠沒有變成護國群山還變成到美國去"},{"start":162.694,"end":179.245,"text":"那現在本席就本席所知台積電現在是兩奈米嘛他們生產的在台灣兩奈米那已經在美國先前投資已經在蓋的是四奈米所以這一次去最多最多他就到三奈米吧"},{"start":180.286,"end":204.686,"text":"對 這個是不能這樣看要看哪一年他現在才第二個廠現在是結構才蓋好嘛那到整個能夠量產最快是今年底最快是今年底那再蓋第三個廠第三個廠再蓋好才會進到第四個廠第五個廠那都是兩三年後的事了對對對所以他進到兩奈米一定是兩三年後的事了"},{"start":205.154,"end":228.899,"text":"所以目前一定不可能進到2奈米目前沒有那麼快一定是在台灣的2奈米運作順暢之後他才有可能往外移動那即將要審查他們董事會通過以後我們因為連總統都開了記者會了所以您有沒有瞭解台積電投資美國但最近川普還特別強調不是1650億美元是2000億他這樣講那本席想請問"},{"start":235.741,"end":244.989,"text":"這個錢台積電怎麼來會不會掏空台灣丟到美國去台積電投資在美國的場他資金怎麼來"},{"start":246.414,"end":273.65,"text":"資金怎麼來目前是沒有這個並沒有在董事會討論過了那只是說在他會在審計委員會裡面做比較細的討論因為他的錢一定不夠這麼多嘛他的錢一定不夠那麼多世界各國也不會貸款給他那這就只能搬台灣的錢過去因為他很多錢資金調度會在美國直接就在地的調度了"},{"start":275.151,"end":296.544,"text":"在美國在地的調度他自己台積電內部調度還是美國會借錢給他他會跟美國的金融業就像很多公司來到台灣投資會所以你判斷美國金融業會借錢給台積電台積電的信用等級非常的高沒有人會不想借給他"},{"start":297.524,"end":320.178,"text":"我們不希望掏空台灣我們台積電是賺世界人的錢來讓台灣經濟發展讓我們民眾財富增加我們請主委一定要堅定立場有一點我要說明台積電的產能80%在台灣也就是說它的80%的投資在台灣80%的投資在台灣"},{"start":323.673,"end":336.938,"text":"對 但是我們看的先進技術很重要技術過去 人才各方面所以我才會提出最後我想一個實驗問題它會不會入主Intel這個目前並沒有被討論過"},{"start":338.883,"end":367.123,"text":"所以他如果併購或入主Intel是不是也會要審查呢這個也是要審查的所以目前沒有討論所以都是爆派的就是媒體在講而已其實他們兩個公司一個可以比喻成汽油一個是柴油兩個混在一起這個引擎是不會好的會壞掉的所以你也認同嘛代工跟這整個的研發不能拆開"},{"start":368.901,"end":389.475,"text":"他們想拆開他們是這兩個都是兩個文化是不太一樣因為Intel是單一產品大量製造所以坦白講就我所知他有的地方還在比較手工那我們代工業是會依據客戶的訂單會有一個比較跳動式的生產所以我們大量的自動化在文化上就不太一樣因為時間關係最後結論"},{"start":391.016,"end":399.48,"text":"主委一定要堅定立場我們不希望哪一天在新聞看到讓我們全台灣大家錯愕的結果好嗎 可以嗎可以啊好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":942,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時44分）謝謝主席，本席有請劉主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：徐委員午安。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委午安。請教主委，台積電赴美設廠審查了嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我了解還沒有送審，但在送審之前，應該會經過董事會正式的核定，目前董事會還沒有召開。"],["徐委員欣瑩：未來的審查是不是一個過水，還是就是一個形式？不然的話，台積電都已經跟美國總統還有跟我們臺灣總統開記者會？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那只是一個協議，不是法律的依據，法律依據上，還是要回到董事會的核定跟這個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：跟我們投審會的審查？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，跟投審會的審查。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以也沒有說一定定案？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是一個意願，如果董事會大家的意見可以支持，然後政府也同意的時候，它才會付諸實現。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。主委是否曾經說過台積電赴美投資有三大原則──最新技術不會過去、關鍵技術不准過去，還有國家安全優先？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我說過。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以您會堅持這個立場嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那麼台積電到國外投資，尤其到美國，它是否有實行所謂N-1的限制？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：從國家安全優先考量的角度下，是可以用N-1來看這件事情。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這次會不會用這個？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是我給經濟部的建議，原則上應該會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你給經濟部的建議？那為什麼就在最近，川普總統還有美國的一位發言人，都講：我們以後不用仰賴臺灣了，我們美國就有最新、最好的晶片！本席希望主委未來在投審會的時候一定要堅持立場、原則，我們的護國神山絕對不能沒有變成護國群山，還變成到美國去！就本席所知，台積電現在的兩奈米是在臺灣生產，先前已經在美國投資興建的是四奈米，所以這次去美國最多最多就是到三奈米。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個不能這樣看，還要看在哪一年，它現在的第二個廠結構才蓋好，要整個能夠量產，最快是今年底，然後再蓋第三個廠；第三個廠蓋好，才會進到第四個廠、第五個廠，那都是兩、三年後的事了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以它進到兩奈米，一定是兩、三年後的事了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以目前一定不可能進到兩奈米？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前沒有那麼快，一定是在臺灣的兩奈米運作順暢之後，才有可能往外移動。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，他們董事會通過以後，即將要審查，因為連總統都開了記者會，所以您有沒有去了解台積電投資美國，最近川普還特別強調不是1,650億美元，是2,000億，本席想請問台積電的這個錢要怎麼來？會不會掏空臺灣，丟到美國去？台積電在美國投資的廠，它的資金怎麼來？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：資金怎麼來，目前並沒有在董事會討論過，只是它會在審議委員會裡面做比較細的討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為它的錢一定不夠這麼多，世界各國也不會貸款給它，就只能搬臺灣的錢過去。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不會只有那個，因為它很多資金調度會在美國直接在地調度……"],["徐委員欣瑩：在美國在地的調度？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它一樣會有美國的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是台積電自己內部調度，還是美國會借錢給它？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它會跟美國的金融業，就像很多公司來到臺灣……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你判斷美國金融業會借錢給台積電？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電的信用等級非常的高，沒有人會不想借給它。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們不希望掏空臺灣，台積電是賺世界人的錢來讓臺灣經濟發展，讓我們民眾的財富增加，所以請主委一定要堅定立場。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，有一點我要說明，台積電的產能80%在臺灣，也就是說它80%的投資在臺灣，只有20%到海外。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是我們認為先進技術很重要，技術過去，人才各方面……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我才會提出三個原則。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，我想問它會不會入主Intel？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個目前並沒有被討論過。"],["徐委員欣瑩：它如果併購或入主Intel，是不是也要審查？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個也是要審查的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以目前沒有討論？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：完全沒有討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以都是報派的，就是媒體在講而已？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實他們兩個公司，可以比喻成汽油跟柴油，兩個混在一起，這個引擎是不會好的，會壞掉的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以你也認同嘛！代工跟整個研發不能拆開？他們想拆開？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這兩個文化是不太一樣，Intel是單一產品大量製造，就我所知，它有的地方還在比較手工，我們的代工業是依據客戶的訂單，會有比較跳動式的生產，所以我們是大量的自動化，在文化上就不太一樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為時間關係，最後結論，請主委一定要堅定立場，我們不希望哪一天在新聞上看到讓全臺灣錯愕的結果，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答。蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請黃國昌委員做詢答。黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員不在。","現在請陳冠廷委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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