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E的母公司提出要跟Fupenda結合的一個申報案件現在正在審查這些文件申報資料是不是齊備等到所有的這個申報資料完整了之後呢我們就會開始"},{"start":2298.473,"end":2298.733,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2316.209,"end":2316.329,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":2332.18,"end":2333.801,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2348.37,"end":2348.61,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2370.649,"end":2371.83,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2400.091,"end":2400.251,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2417.469,"end":2430.905,"text":"二、審商的做出決定來確保維護自由跟公平的競爭這是關於這個外送平台的結合案所做的報告那接下來呢我來報告就是秋"},{"start":2432.546,"end":2452.763,"text":"市委委員等16位委員以及楊瓊英委員等24位委員所提的《多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正案》我來說明如下首先就是邱委員等16人以及楊委員等24人所提的修正案都是針對《多層次傳銷管理法》"},{"start":2453.163,"end":2470.376,"text":"第三條修正意見而且修正的內容是相同的主要都是要增加這個多層次傳銷事業他跟傳銷商參加締結參加契約的時候可以用電子文件為之那我先說明一下現行條文的規定是什麼"},{"start":2471.216,"end":2484.026,"text":"現行條文的規定是說這個傳銷事業跟傳銷商在簽訂這個參加契約的時候呢要用書面不可以用電子為方式為之當時為什麼要這麼定呢因為傳銷商跟傳銷事業之間的這個權利義務關係啊用書面來締結白紙黑字寫清楚這樣子可以使雙方對權利義務關係很清楚"},{"start":2495.555,"end":2495.675,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2525.531,"end":2549.542,"text":"傳銷事業跟傳銷商的參加企業可以用電子文件為之本會競表支持。以上簡單報告,敬請指教。好,謝謝公平會主委的報告。那行政院消費者保護處以及速發部的書面報告請委員自行參酌並刊登公報。那因為我們現場委員的人數已足,是不是請問各位委員上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏?"},{"start":2553.364,"end":2570.774,"text":"接下來我們要開始進行詢答委員質詢前原例做幾下的極點宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員五分鐘必要時的延長兩分鐘非本會委員四分鐘上午十點鐘截止發言登記我是不是請一下那個楊卓英委員謝謝"},{"start":2583.1,"end":2597.196,"text":"好,那我們請登記第一位邱益穎委員召委,請發言。好,謝謝主席,我是不是請一下主委。我們請主委。委員長。"},{"start":2604.688,"end":2631.766,"text":"主委早所以我想請教一下就是我們今天討論的這個外送平台UberEats跟Fupanda的這個合併案那剛剛您的報告裡頭其實也談到了一些目前公平會的看法我想在疫情過後大量的使用外送平台這個已經是全世界的日常不只是台灣的日常是全世界的日常那UberEats宣布要這個併購以9.5億的美元來併購Fupanda"},{"start":2635.008,"end":2659.057,"text":"那剛剛我特別聽了一下您的報告裡頭去談到你們要考量的這個部分有包含所謂的市佔率對不對這整個公平性上面有包含了市佔率那其實這個案子應該是在台灣除了這個非科技業的這種交易案裡頭其實也算是一個受矚目的交易案請教一下這個主委啊"},{"start":2664.485,"end":2685.627,"text":"您怎麼看這個案子?到底公平會要如何來救這個案來進行審查?它的試占率要怎麼算?如果說到目前的看起來Uber Eats是占32%Fu Panda占43%兩個加起來就已經接近八成"},{"start":2687.142,"end":2705.742,"text":"但是也會有人說其實很多人是兩家都在用所以他的市佔率可能沒那麼高但是市佔率真的沒那麼高嗎?你們要怎麼去計算那個市佔率?我首先先問這一個謝謝委員提問市佔率在衡量的面向非常多也包括譬如說他們的營業額"},{"start":2706.783,"end":2707.383,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2737.978,"end":2759.421,"text":"會不會不是計算餐飲店家就是主要我剛提到的營業額信用卡簽單訂單數這一些來看他的這個市佔率好第二個我要請教一下對於員工的保障或者是說對於餐飲的店家的保障這一些有沒有在你們考量的因素裡頭這個會在裡面的考量因素"},{"start":2760.282,"end":2780.467,"text":"你現在能夠考量的因素到底會有幾項,你可不可以一項一項來跟委員會做說明。那剛才我有提到說我們有幾個面向來看這個結合案件,包括這個集中程度。對。那競爭者減少了是不是有抬高價格的能力。是。同業間會不會有這個提高聯合行為的風險。"},{"start":2781.067,"end":2781.187,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":2806.235,"end":2824.799,"text":"等等,餐廳的抽成的權益等等,這些有沒有包括在您當初提的這些都在這些考量裡頭。我記得過去你們在審查統一跟家樂福併購案的時候,其實大家也會有一些擔憂、疑慮。那後來這個併購案是成功的,但是你們有幾項的附帶條件,把它加總進去。"},{"start":2829.72,"end":2855.668,"text":"那像這個這麼重大的併購案你們會不會也相對的把這些條件把它加進去又或者是說大家長期一直在討論的比如說餐廳的這個抽成被抽30到35%未來只有一家外送業者有可能他的抽成還會再更高你對小吃業者的負擔其實是會加重對外送員的權益他們的薪資這個勞動的"},{"start":2858.029,"end":2859.11,"text":"我們對這個結合案的這個最後委員會的結果是"},{"start":2875.845,"end":2876.105,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":2893.853,"end":2916.779,"text":"當然不是在這裡下指導旗啦只是說對於外送平台對於這些外送員的權益對於商家被抽成的比例過高等等所有的勞動權甚至在市佔率上以後消費者的權益這些未來假如你們是通過這樣的一個重大的併購案的時候"},{"start":2918.439,"end":2947.628,"text":"那我們是也希望這樣的一些照顧照顧消費者保護消費者保護商家甚至保護外送員的這些相對的權利的部分都也能夠列入在你們所謂的附加條件裡頭因為這個大家已經談太多了嘛過去你們都沒有辦法可以去管制他們是不是就建議也利用這樣的一個審查的機會我覺得把這些相對的東西把它提出來"},{"start":2948.448,"end":2967.074,"text":"甚至就是說你們在審查的時候我覺得應該也可以要求他們提出相對保障的做法出來嗎?是不是這樣?是 這個我們都會做通盤的考量那尤其社會關切的這些消費者、外送員、餐廳等等還有整個市場競爭的影響這個我們都會一起來考量好 謝謝謝謝接下來我們請陳廷飛委員請做詢答"},{"start":2983.722,"end":3003.135,"text":"好,休息一分鐘。好,我們現在請陳婷菲委員發言。"},{"start":3007.711,"end":3008.952,"text":"李主委主委"},{"start":3020.481,"end":3039.804,"text":"其實我們需要的是公平會的態度我們沒有辦法去對於你們未來的審查結果如何去做任何的定調但是現在已經變成大家所擔心的一個焦點你也知道這個市場之大對不對"},{"start":3041.766,"end":3065.326,"text":"當這兩家平台業者做結合的時候他變成是一個超級大怪獸了這個超級大怪獸到底他要去捍衛到誰的權利然後會影響到誰的權利這個部分我們公平會如果沒有態度出來大家現在非常擔心"},{"start":3066.55,"end":3093.081,"text":"你知道公平會的態度應該做到什麼你要保障到三方的權益哪三方的權益第一餐飲業者為什麼要保障餐飲業者他有可能啊選擇犧牲原有的客群然後外送平台然後解約然後加成本轉嫁給消費者然後去調漲價格"},{"start":3096.394,"end":3096.594,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":3127.449,"end":3127.649,"text":"二、審查：一）"},{"start":3146.018,"end":3166.307,"text":"那我想請教一下現在針對這三方當你在審這個併購案的時候我們的態度在哪裡未來我們針對餐飲業者針對消費者針對外送員他們的權益我們要怎麼在這個審併購案之前應該有態度主委"},{"start":3171.379,"end":3192.07,"text":"謝謝委員提問我剛才也提到說這個案子我們在審查的面向剛才委員所關切的這個意義都會在我們這個審查裡面可是你們沒有態度出來啊你們只有說這些面向會在你們裡面可是你們的態度在哪裡看不到態度看不到態度大家就會擔心"},{"start":3193.988,"end":3218.686,"text":"你說會啊委員你講的我們會審審哪一個標準審哪一個部分然後我們的一個基底要抓在哪裡看不到態度看不到公平會的態度你們現在的方向呢我一樣一樣來如果參與業者的權益呢"},{"start":3220.495,"end":3221.236,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3248.015,"end":3249.896,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3277.113,"end":3301.546,"text":"那如果這樣子的話我們公平會的態度又在哪裡跟委員說明因為現在是第一大跟第二大併在一起這整個市場結構很明顯是改變了那國際上包括本會向來對於這樣的一種結合案一定是嚴格審查嚴格把關對啊主委你一直都講很空洞嚴格審查嚴格把關那到底要怎麼嚴格"},{"start":3303.516,"end":3325.461,"text":"你的嚴格的標準在哪裡看不出來聽不到你的嚴格在哪裡主委你跟我講嚴格在哪裡你的標準在哪裡針對這三方餐飲業者消費者外送員未來要怎麼保障他們對於第一跟第二大平台的併購"},{"start":3327.608,"end":3349.677,"text":"你的嚴格要在哪裡?你的嚴格審查要在標準制定抓在哪裡?我想這個審查我們有一個這個審查原則跟準則那將來在審查就是照這樣的一個好,原則跟準則在哪裡?誰定?原則跟準則誰定?"},{"start":3351.92,"end":3354.403,"text":"誰定?你們自己定嗎?對啊,原則跟審查的標準是你們定嘛,對不對?"},{"start":3362.586,"end":3386.219,"text":"是啊那你要不要把這個原則跟標準跟大家報告一下你會多嚴格你會多麼的站在這三方餐飲業者消費者外送員的這樣的一個權益你們會非常非常非常嚴格的把關請問你們的標準在哪裡你現在講不出來完全都這麼的空洞"},{"start":3387.179,"end":3400.56,"text":"我們今天已經做了這樣的所謂希望你來做這樣的一個報告結果是如此的空洞難怪現在大家很擔心欸"},{"start":3402.52,"end":3418.356,"text":"我連在這裡我都聽不到我想要聽的我都沒有辦法安心去認為我們公平會會好好的審嚴格的審這所謂第一大跟第二大平台的併購案你知道這多嚴重嗎這影響著這三方會變成任人宰割欸"},{"start":3426.872,"end":3446.628,"text":"我只要要進到這個行業我就必須要符合他們的需要跟他們的要求你如果讓他併購完之後你要求不了他所以你自己的標準在哪裡嗎?你講不出來嗎?而且這個標準又是你們公民會自己定的啊你還講不出來"},{"start":3449.253,"end":3477.358,"text":"難怪大家會擔心啊。我們甚至會放水。剛才我已經在報告裡面說,有幾個面向都會一起來綜合判斷,最後會去評估整個整體經濟利益是不是大於限制競爭的不利益。主委。這個都會逐項去審查。我真的不好意思說啦。看了你的報告,我只有覺得擔心、擔憂,因為怎麼把關看不到。"},{"start":3478.686,"end":3500.973,"text":"就是空洞而且不要忘了這是我們的第一大平台跟第二大平台他如果併購之後等於是一個超級大怪獸他要怎麼做你如果沒有事先去做好一個審慎的要求"},{"start":3502.622,"end":3525.431,"text":"我相信過了之後誰都奈何不了他最後就是餐飲業者受害消費者受害外送員受害這絕對不是我們要看到的而且也應該不是你們公平會在這個把關當中最後給大家失望的感覺謝謝"},{"start":3531.717,"end":3545.189,"text":"謝謝陳庭菲委員接下來我們請鄭正前委員發言謝謝主席我想請一下國民會主委來請李主委"},{"start":3551.243,"end":3579.383,"text":"委員早昨天早今天我們特別針對外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響的配套措施那這個議題很大及對消費者影響很大可是我發現這是我收過最少的一個報告就是兩頁一張都寫不滿第二頁都寫不滿那這個也表示這個問題確實非常的棘手我先請教一下主委"},{"start":3580.103,"end":3604.293,"text":"那個Pupenda是哪一國的公司?母公司?不知道?德國的公司嗎?所以UberEats母公司是美國的嗎?所以其實是兩家外資的公司那競爭的市場在台灣他讓我想到另外一個很類似的個案就是陳貴跟郝樂迪的案子"},{"start":3606.034,"end":3622.673,"text":"兩家公司都是台灣的公司,而且都是公開發行的公司。請問他們這兩家公司當時公平會的決議後來有沒有被follow?我們當時並沒有核准他們的結合。那他們現在的情況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":3625.118,"end":3635.53,"text":"對,兩站在經營可是他們後面的股東結構其實幾乎是完全整合的一個情況那我想說這個部分因為他就是一個市場經濟的狀態那我們現在來看這個"},{"start":3639.915,"end":3641.457,"text":"二、審查．一）二、審查．一）"},{"start":3658.118,"end":3658.338,"text":"OK（"},{"start":3681.383,"end":3706.754,"text":"這是消保處這邊的一個資料那我這邊想特別提到的一個狀態就是因為在跟外送平台有關的已經變成第二類在運輸類當中非常的多創始年的一個新高創始年的新高那在這麼多的一個消費糾紛當中的時候其實我發現我們消保處行政院消保處今天有來"},{"start":3709.363,"end":3709.623,"text":"二、審查．一．二．"},{"start":3729.335,"end":3753.685,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關研商及協調會議那麼介於外送平台是以多面向、多元且營業形態法律觀就較為複雜然後點點點之後然後也請外交部去瞭解其他國家的狀態從112年6月到現在我不知道這個報告已經出來了沒有因為它這裡面的一個報告基本上是一個沒有結果的報告蕭保處"},{"start":3764.404,"end":3764.544,"text":"二、審查．"},{"start":3784.418,"end":3784.538,"text":"二、審查８一）"},{"start":3814.418,"end":3815.139,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3833.934,"end":3857.195,"text":"之後公平會在審這個合併案的時候請務必一定要確保就是外送員的一個勞動條件所以我們希望說在審的過程當中的時候能夠把勞動部拉進來然後能夠把整個外送員他們的勞務契約變成附帶條件重要的部分主委這個部分可不可以先承諾"},{"start":3857.836,"end":3871.489,"text":"我想我們在整個審查的過程會跟相關機關包括消保會、勞動部一起來徵詢他們的意見、交換意見。那除了這個部分之外的時候還有另外一個地方就是針對整個"},{"start":3874.071,"end":3874.492,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3892.409,"end":3892.589,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3915.094,"end":3915.174,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3930.52,"end":3930.8,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":3950.51,"end":3969.073,"text":"我想我們在審查過程中對於併購方以後的交易相對人包括餐廳、消費者以及外送員將來彼此之間的這個談判能力都會通盤去考量所以我再提一個狀態因為目前這兩家公司都是國外的公司"},{"start":3970.114,"end":3995.647,"text":"那目前富盛達在東南亞也已經被Grab把它給買掉了那我想問一個情況就是說如果公平會不允許他們併購可是富盛達到最後他自己退出市場當富盛達他自動退出市場的時候也許他們在私底下跟Uber Eats他們也許有一個私底下的一個什麼樣的交易他也不是公開發行公司他直接退出市場這個市場就拱手讓給了Uber Eats"},{"start":3998.708,"end":4012.453,"text":"在這種狀態之下的時候我們公平會有沒有其他的做法我們會將來會看整個市場的競爭狀況才能夠這個依事實來判斷OK那我覺得要特別提到因為我看到那個我們的相關的"},{"start":4014.892,"end":4032.857,"text":"就是相關法令我們的第七條第八條第九條當中的時候寫的感覺是很感覺好像有一個限制對於獨佔的定義然後對於獨佔的行為不能夠做的可是我發現其實它都很空而且整個其實是模糊的"},{"start":4033.637,"end":4061.441,"text":"所以我對於公平會對於這個兩家大的外送平台他們後續的發展能夠有怎麼樣的影響其實本席是非常的擔心可是也希望公平會還是能夠在不可為的情況之下盡最大的努力去保障台灣的消費者還有就是外送員跟業者這三者的一個權益的一個平衡好不好是的"},{"start":4077.177,"end":4092.182,"text":"主席,我想請李主委。李主委,首先我想問你,有使用過Fu Panda或是UberEats嗎?FuPanda有用過。有用過,你覺得好用嗎?"},{"start":4093.789,"end":4094.011,"text":"方便嗎?"},{"start":4096.544,"end":4124.974,"text":"還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還還"},{"start":4125.114,"end":4145.207,"text":"三千萬人的消費市場十五萬人左右的勞動市場以及全台超過六成的餐飲業者都會受到影響那這個和平和平案請問你們的裁決就是攸關上千萬人權益的裁決請問主委你會不會覺得有壓力的這個案子會明顯的改變市場結構我們在審慎在評估這個案件的時候會審慎評估"},{"start":4155.578,"end":4182.935,"text":"那本席要問公平會自串會至今有禁止過哪些案件結合我們禁止過譬如說統一要跟維利結合還有錢貴好樂迪還有一些有限電視系統的結合那之前為什麼會禁止這些事業結合呢我想當時的這個禁止的結合的理由應該有他根據法令的規定做出的一個判斷"},{"start":4184.298,"end":4199.249,"text":"就是說對於這一次跟之前的這幾個這個和平案本席認為其關鍵是在於市佔率的界定這也是過去公平會禁止結合的主要原因主委認同嗎?"},{"start":4203.006,"end":4223.934,"text":"我們在這個審查的時候先界定市場所以當時這些案子的這個審查應該是根據當時的內容但是公平會在這個月的14號的時候表示兩大外送平台合併會有八成的市佔率本席想請教這八成是如何推估而來"},{"start":4224.735,"end":4225.175,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":4242.185,"end":4243.146,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":4271.707,"end":4271.847,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":4299.722,"end":4327.334,"text":"先為您說明一下當時的您提到那個八層是我們在109年的時候有一個那也是四年前的那也是四年前的現在在審訊的結合案我們會重新做調查在這個疫情之前在這個疫情之前的市戰率就有八層那疫情之後那可不得了了所以四年前的數據你拿出來用就是第一個錯誤那公平會本席在這裡要求公平會的裁決必須保障餐飲"},{"start":4328.254,"end":4331.677,"text":"但我們都知道獨佔本身並非構成禁止結合的要件對吧?"},{"start":4346.581,"end":4361.809,"text":"獨佔本身是一個事實那我們再進一步判說獨佔事業有什麼樣的行為是不是違反公平交易法的一個規定我們都知道說Uber Eats跟Full Panda彼此就是最大的競爭者那目前呢假設他們結合的話餐飲業者會擔心被漲價外送員會擔心被砍薪而且結合之後消費者是毫無溢價能力那這兩大平台的結合將會造成"},{"start":4375.816,"end":4405.029,"text":"台灣餐飲業上下游的浩劫以前有一個這個廣告台詞是一家烤肉萬家香現在這兩大平台的結合可能會變成一家烤肉萬家哭因此本席認為公平會的裁決必須審慎考慮幾個面向第一就是要保障餐飲業者不會因為結合而必須付出更高的經營成本那兩個外送平台現在的抽成大概是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":4406.349,"end":4435.569,"text":"三十到四十不等了那不沒錯差不多三十二到三十八趴之間那一般的餐飲業者扣除掉食材成本人事成本電租等等中間店家的獲利大概是二十五趴但是被外送平台抽了三十二至三十八趴之後店家幾乎是毫無利潤那其實我們餐飲業者也都是經營的非常辛苦尤其現在又這個漲店價不得已的話他也只好"},{"start":4436.049,"end":4436.949,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":4451.254,"end":4451.394,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":4466.701,"end":4466.941,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":4483.697,"end":4484.277,"text":"二、審查．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":4511.215,"end":4531.983,"text":"九金山、芝加哥等城市都已經限定每筆上限15%,那並將之法制化。台灣是不是也可以思考幫將之法制化的?主委你認同嗎?我想是不是專案立法這個要很多面向去考量。我問你個人,我問你公平會的立場。你覺得這樣適合嗎?"},{"start":4536.781,"end":4561.118,"text":"或許這不是公平會的主管業務但藉這個機會也呼籲相關單位應該著手去研究國際案例並思考未來如何更有效的保障消費者我們期許公平會的裁決會達到多贏的結果就是店家有生意消費者的權益有保護外送員的薪水有保障那平台能夠維持營運"},{"start":4562.879,"end":4575.87,"text":"那本案的這個審議進度請公平會需定時公告而且並以書面回覆本席。謝謝。好,謝謝張家俊委員。接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言。謝謝主席。請他出位。來,請你出位。"},{"start":4598.694,"end":4624.643,"text":"委員長主委長這次兩大外送平台這個合併會不會變成是一個外送合成獸甚至是一個失控的台灣外送產業呢我相信剛剛委員已經提到了您壓力應該是很大的雖然還沒開始政治審對不對可是我相信已經有很多很多的人跟你講這個對台灣影響太大了我看你提到的這個報告裡面講到"},{"start":4626.324,"end":4651.51,"text":"會有四個面向去檢討嘛 對不對是你報告還沒出來那叫這四項市場的集中度結合或併購的這個定價能力這兩項看起來都不會過嘛對不對我想要看整個資料才判斷他們兩家家你看UberEats現在是9.5億美元對不對新台幣309億要去併購普遍打"},{"start":4657.11,"end":4683.377,"text":"這是施策會公布的嘛,超過八層嘛。被審的東西是市場集中度很高吧?被審是不是很高?是。所以不用審啊,大家一看就知道第一個面向一定是超過嘛,對不對?第二個結合以後併購的這個定價能力,本錢兩斤的最大啊,那加起來併購能力變一斤。這個第二個應該也答案你很清楚了吧?是不是?"},{"start":4684.724,"end":4710.239,"text":"我看還是要還是要看整個資料齁整個還要進一步詳細的分析OK不過現在看起來第一項你是認同的啦市場集中度看起來有問題嘛那結合後的併購這個定價能力那現在來看齁其實民眾會很關心是因為它影響實在是太大了第一個外送員屬於你知道外送員現在前陣子有被這兩個平台"},{"start":4712.388,"end":4740.636,"text":"他們這個薪資有被降低對不對?是有被降低你知道嗎?有看到這個消息一個單一個基本基本基本的這個單的費用現在是多少錢你知道嗎?我先跟你講一下他進行一張單喔基本基本費可以拿到60到70塊錢現在已經降到多少你知道嗎?本來是60到70這兩家他們聯合去把它降下來現在重大了你知道嗎?"},{"start":4742.984,"end":4743.605,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":4762.982,"end":4789.95,"text":"應該是差不多三十到四十吧,再縮小一點,32到38%啦。對啊,這個高不高?你如果開一間店,這個抽層很高耶。那現在是有兩大家,現在如果合起來,那這個抽層不是就更高了。所以對外送員有很大的影響,對合作的店家有很大的影響。其實衝擊更大就是我們,一般的消費者嘛。"},{"start":4791.448,"end":4791.528,"text":"二（二（"},{"start":4818.444,"end":4844.141,"text":"那根本的解決方案是什麼我覺得除了要依靠公平委之外他應該訂一個專法台灣民眾黨在上個會期就提出一個專法了他要對外送平台的管理還有外送這個從業人員這個權利是要有一個保障的那這個最近我們台灣民眾黨會在提案我們請主委要提供你的專業意見好不好要保障到"},{"start":4845.1,"end":4845.82,"text":"二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．"},{"start":4877.038,"end":4902.821,"text":"那個委員談的是說Full Panda跟UberEats降低外送員報酬這我們有調查那根據我們調查的結果其實是分別定價並不是聯合共同合並沒有市政﹖他們沒有範例的聯繞合就是沒有你平常講的那個範例跟那個聯合就對了那他計費的項目等等我們有做這個瞭解"},{"start":4903.582,"end":4928.184,"text":"所以後來是沒有問題嗎?那可是就是一下降那麼多啊,而且兩家幾乎是同時降啊。就是說個別降,這個在公平專法是沒有非難的。是個別降,所以還是拿它沒辦法。因為它不是共同合嘛。不是共同,你把那個報告也給我一份好不好。這個已經提出來過對不對?是,我們已經有做過實力了。好,我們來看一下這個報告的這個裡面的,我們把它詳細來談好不好。那另外之一我們剛剛本期提到的,怎麼去保障到"},{"start":4928.965,"end":4940.32,"text":"外送員保障到合作這個店家保障到消費者這個權益在整個溢價過程裡面這是你們責任嗎這是我們會審慎評估你一方面等他送這個申請過來一方面你在一個禮拜能不能先有一個評估報告給我們"},{"start":4941.616,"end":4968.251,"text":"我們會把這個整個案情的過程再跟會後跟委員評估好不好你已經有做了還是目前可以去趕快去做?這兩個齁那個我以為你說的是這個結合案還是說那個降低報酬那一部分沒有沒有現在合併這個這個合併案我們是5月14號收到收到這個申報的案件目前針對這個我會再試所以現在是針對這個資料在做評好那你大概多久你拿到以後多久你應該先會有一個評估嘛對不對"},{"start":4968.891,"end":4989.893,"text":"我們會看他資料齊不齊備．如果齊備以後就受理．受理以後30天的審查．30天審查之前你們內部會有一個評估嗎?再延六十天．如果有評估報告能不能一個禮拜先給我?我想我們最後．我們是會照我們的程序是會．第一個就是說看資料．第二個徵詢各界的意見．那再來就是委員會去討論．最後會做出一個決定．"},{"start":4990.813,"end":5018.066,"text":"好。因為他們照你們的法律程序來走。那如果之前先做一個評估報告可以的話,就先一個禮拜內先給。如果有進一步消息可提供的話,我會再跟你們。好。注意。謝謝。李主委,你要不要想清楚?兩個外送平台合併的評估報告,你們可以先送立法院?可以這樣嗎?剛剛張委員剛剛講的不是要你提...你們內部一定會先送評估法,對不對?"},{"start":5019.413,"end":5038.48,"text":"對,鄭委員剛剛講的是請你提供你們內部的評估報告,你們那個可以先送立法院：我説明一下我們的成：你要講清楚喔,你不要亂回答喔因為現在那個應該不是評估報告而是說我們的這個進度,譬如說現在是在這個補件當中,這個我們可以對外來說明,那不是說"},{"start":5039.46,"end":5042.761,"text":"對,這是案件的審查進度報告。審查進度報告。那我現在說除了這個,當然這個到時候都是公開的啦。我說你之前內部一定有回送某些評估嗎?你方不方便把這個內部評估報告?沒有評估,就是都資料都齊全,徵詢意見以後就到委員會去審查。審查結果。那OK。我只是要確認一下不然"},{"start":5064.885,"end":5065.305,"text":"接下來請鄭天才委員發言。"},{"start":5100.419,"end":5126.365,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請主委。來,請你主委。委員長。主委好。那今天這個多層次傳銷管理法的修正。這個多層次傳銷管理法103年1月29號公布施行。"},{"start":5129.434,"end":5140.381,"text":"當時這個現在就是現在條文了哈第十三條多層次傳銷事業與傳銷商參加其傳銷計劃或組織時應與傳銷商締結書面參加企業並交付企業正本前項之書面不得以電子文件為之電子簽章法"},{"start":5152.267,"end":5176.039,"text":"比這個多層次傳銷管理法更早公布施行。民國九十年了,十一月十四號就制定了電子簽章法。那一百零三年制定這個多層次傳銷管理法,為什麼"},{"start":5177.682,"end":5186.182,"text":"會明定不得以電子文件為之,一定有他的一個用意,立法的目的,知道嗎?"},{"start":5188.332,"end":5188.592,"text":"往前正確。"},{"start":5217.099,"end":5245.642,"text":"那因為這個現在要修正我們有委員提案修正得以電子文件為之那因為這個多層次傳銷他是透過傳銷商介紹他人參加建立多層級的組織介紹再介紹再介紹沒有限次數嘛"},{"start":5247.685,"end":5274.784,"text":"所以這樣的一個情形之下這個第五條寫得很清楚在這樣的情形之下你剛才主委提的沒有錯這個當時受害的都是基層最基層的而這些最基層的通常都是很少用那個以現在的說法就是連賴都很少用"},{"start":5276.385,"end":5299.483,"text":"現在是不是還是這樣所以這個是當初一百零三年已經是一個電子化時代了對不對一百零三年了而且電子簽署法民國九十年就公布了所以他之所以會這樣這樣子明定就是剛剛主委所講的那現在經過了十年"},{"start":5301.067,"end":5301.367,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5332.506,"end":5358.831,"text":"因為我剛講過電子前章法90年11月14號公布施行今年有在做修正今年有在做5月15號這個又修正修得更更開放啦我簡單用詞叫更開放更好但是就基層而言是不是就能夠"},{"start":5361.186,"end":5363.287,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5380.214,"end":5406.381,"text":"前三項文件或簽章之使用．有相對人者．除相對人已同意採用電子形式外．應於採用電子形式之前．以合理期間及方式給予相對人反對之機會．並告知相對人未反對者推定同意採用電子形式．"},{"start":5408.626,"end":5409.406,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5439.793,"end":5452.8,"text":"不然的話又是成為一個詐騙事件的最基層的成為被詐騙者有沒有可能發生這種事情"},{"start":5453.813,"end":5478.292,"text":"謝謝委員。雖然用電子方式為之,它還是要有一個契約,還是有一些權利義務的條款法令的規定的一些事項。那因為現在這個我們的數位經濟發展很快,我們的傳銷商還是可以下載的,這個契約是可以下載的。那另外您談到的配套措施,在公平會我們對於我們的傳銷事業會有一些業務檢查,這一部分我們將來也會特別去觀察。"},{"start":5479.045,"end":5500.395,"text":"因為每個部會的關心的不一樣啊。數位發展部他要去推動這個電子化的時代AI什麼什麼他要去推動不能怪他。但是就不同的部會就自己所主管的業務"},{"start":5501.837,"end":5528.225,"text":"啊,怎麼樣去因應這個,怎麼樣去加強保護最基層的,啊,最基層的人員,這恐怕是每一個,不是,不只是公平會了,包括別的部會也是一樣啊,啊,這個因為當初所以會發生,現在可能又會發生新的,啊,新的一個受騙,啊,"},{"start":5531.351,"end":5531.931,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5549.349,"end":5549.529,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5578.83,"end":5603.528,"text":"好,謝謝鄭天才委員。接下來我們請呂玉玲委員發言。謝謝主席,請李主委。來,請李主委。委員長。主委。"},{"start":5604.773,"end":5624.99,"text":"公平會最重要要對於我們這個獨佔行為或聯合行為的限制競爭或者是不公平的這個競爭行為我們公平會都要發揮最積極的一個作用對不對那如果說有違反了這個禁止我們這個事業體制合併有違法的罪證確鑿我們就要開重罰是不是"},{"start":5628.833,"end":5629.474,"text":"二、審查．一．二、審查．一．"},{"start":5643.769,"end":5643.949,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5661.186,"end":5661.266,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":5691.606,"end":5691.766,"text":"二、審查．"},{"start":5710.655,"end":5711.095,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5735.436,"end":5735.596,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5764.906,"end":5765.046,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5784.347,"end":5800.558,"text":"主委你可以保證做得到嗎我跟委員說明我們審查的結果如果禁止結合那就是禁止不可以結合就不會再附加條件如果同意結合我們是擔心同意結合之後所有的人都會影響他的權益會受損"},{"start":5801.559,"end":5803.161,"text":"所以才要你有附加條件對於外送員餐廳甚至消費者這一些可能受到的影響我們都會一起評估一定要評估喔因為這個之前統一跟維利還有好樂迪跟這個錢貴啊"},{"start":5817.915,"end":5818.055,"text":"二、審查（"},{"start":5836.607,"end":5858.7,"text":"我們會評估整個經濟利益有沒有大於這個限制競爭的不利益。所以本席也想請問一下,你們會開公聽會嗎?會,會開公聽會。會廣納各方的意見。會,會,會開公聽會。會開公聽會,是。因為要廣納各方的意見,那尤其是我想問一下勞動部這個專員這部分,因為有外送人員的權益的問題。是。"},{"start":5864.487,"end":5872.972,"text":"許專員,請問一下,如果合併的話,外送人員會不會全數流到,順利流到這個轉換的平台?你沒有保障這個權益嗎?包括他們的計費的方式啊,他們會全數轉換過另外一個平台嗎?他們的收入才不會減少?"},{"start":5887.295,"end":5888.756,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5906.465,"end":5921.512,"text":"因為他們這個是屬於接單的沒有辦法保障工作的持久性所以這個你們勞動部一定要注意跟我們的公平會一起共同的來關心這個問題一定要有個合作的機制嘛是不是好不好"},{"start":5923.063,"end":5923.784,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5946.562,"end":5946.882,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":5968.365,"end":5968.585,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":5994.997,"end":6023.017,"text":"因為目前還在收集資料我們會做什麼樣的一個決議其實還沒有還沒有那將來在評估的時候剛才委員提到的這些包括他的這個餐廳、外送員、消費者等等以及最重要的對整個市場競爭秩序的影響這個我們都會來一起考量需要諸位你們執掌的責任積極的發揮功能來保障大家的權益好不好"},{"start":6027.951,"end":6043.716,"text":"謝謝李玉琳委員接下來我們請謝依鳳委員發言謝謝主席我想要請李美主委主委"},{"start":6049.833,"end":6059.691,"text":"主委早安其實大家非常擔心就是Uber Eats跟Fupanda如果他們這個外送平台併購以後"},{"start":6062.213,"end":6079.679,"text":"到底他們兩個合併以後到底會不會影響到目前小吃店還要支付的就是每一單的這個比例是多少那以及未來外送員的權益是多少"},{"start":6080.219,"end":6088.304,"text":"那如果兩個人合併以後．不是兩個人啊．會不會影響到現在已經是博麗多銷的這樣子的平價小吃．未來會變成絕響．請諸位回答"},{"start":6101.478,"end":6114.368,"text":"謝委員就是這個併購案我們在審查的過程也會把是不是因為競爭對手減少了那併購方有提高台價的能力您剛提到問題我們會一起綜合評估"},{"start":6117.483,"end":6143.718,"text":"他們兩個合幣以後超過市佔率是不是超過五成?你們現在預計他是超過他是怎麼樣子的一個比率?一個是第一大跟第二大那結合以後市佔率是很高。多少?多少?超過五成以上一定是有的。那那是多少?這個市場界定市場界定還要再精細我們在109年的時候曾經做過做過分析有七八成以上"},{"start":6144.418,"end":6158.827,"text":"所以是七八成之多這是109年那現在呢因為時間也過了幾年要再重新做市場的界定要重新評估所以如果市佔率這麼高的情況下"},{"start":6160.027,"end":6187.523,"text":"會不會他們兩個合併以後就造成所有店家支付給外送平台的這樣子的一個比例售價比例會提高那如果提高的時候所有的這些平價的業者都沒有辦法有跟他們議價的能力以及現在已經有非常多的外送員"},{"start":6189.084,"end":6201.754,"text":"講到的勞動權利的問題我想請問李主委如果他們到時候一定會提出說明的時候你們會用什麼樣子的點來要求他們"},{"start":6202.864,"end":6227.71,"text":"我想剛才委員提到的包括外送員包括餐廳以及消費者這一些將來跟併購方的議價能力談判能力這一部分我們在審查的過程都會去評估那當然也要看併購方他提出的這個結合計畫相關的內容那因為現在呢5月14號才送件我們現在還在彙整這些資料那怎麼樣的確保勞動權利我想這將來委員會會去充分討論"},{"start":6232.922,"end":6256.052,"text":"勞動部的那個專委你剛才聽到主委說了如果是超過五成可能有達到七八成之多的這樣子的一個合併案怎麼樣子確保所有外送就是目前Uber Eats跟所有Foodpanda外送人員的勞動權利勞動部怎麼確保"},{"start":6259.667,"end":6259.887,"text":"我們這個平台會議還是會繼續進行。"},{"start":6278.787,"end":6293.615,"text":"對可是未來他們就沒有辦法當有兩家的時候他們不走這一家還可以選擇另外一家可是未來的情況是兩家變成一家的情況下你就變成沒有選擇性的那沒有選擇性的時候勞動部針對這樣子相關的勞動權利是應該要另外的計畫"},{"start":6299.659,"end":6308.695,"text":"我希望勞動你帶回去讓勞動部如果針對這個案子應該要在未來的公聽會以及相關的會議表達勞動部的意見好不好"},{"start":6313.149,"end":6339.803,"text":"還有李主委我還要請問一下就是當初你們同意了全聯跟大潤發的併購案可是你們希望說不要用這樣子造成就是說用最低禁止最惠客戶的政策就是不要用低價的方式來來消價競爭可是你們也罰了全聯對不對代表了這麼大的大型市佔率的併購裡面"},{"start":6341.738,"end":6361.429,"text":"公平會過去的審查並沒有辦法確保我們消費者的權利因為如果他們提高了就是每一單的就是每一單商品價格的比例的時候有可能最後還是會轉嫁到消費者身上是不是"},{"start":6363.101,"end":6385.354,"text":"我想這個全年我們罰他兩千萬是因為他當時跟大論法結合的時候我們給他一些負擔跟條件他沒有履行這些負擔跟條件而受處罰我知道 我是說你當初給他們了可是他們也沒有辦法就是說完全的按照那這只是其中的一件而已"},{"start":6385.814,"end":6385.954,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":6405.009,"end":6405.549,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":6420.874,"end":6421.094,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":6440.393,"end":6461.421,"text":"委員問的這個問題就是涉及到說結合以後並購方是不是因為競爭對手減少而有台價的能力這一部分我們在整個審查過程也會去注意到對那我是說我知道你會注意到我說你怎麼確保我想這將來在這個委員會討論的時候我們審查的過程會一起去討論會討論那你會不會確保"},{"start":6469.218,"end":6469.878,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":6499.818,"end":6504.379,"text":"賴銳榮委員發言賴銳榮委員發言賴銳榮委員發言賴銳榮委員發言"},{"start":6523.348,"end":6543.099,"text":"主委我想大家都高度關注這個Uber Eats跟Fupenda的這個收購案那我認為這個其實對台灣有相當大的一個影響因為這兩個幾乎是兩大龍頭而且兩個其實是差距非常的接近而且台灣現在又是一個高度的"},{"start":6544.119,"end":6544.239,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":6563.103,"end":6563.263,"text":"二、審查：一）"},{"start":6582.352,"end":6597.189,"text":"如果文件齊備我們正式受理以後30天要審查完畢,必要的時候可以延長60天。延長到60天是不是?也就是30天加60天。90天,所以最快在三個月後會做出決定。"},{"start":6597.509,"end":6623.281,"text":"要看他文件什麼時候齊備。我們通知副委員他還要準備。我還是希望公平交易這件事情要非常審慎嚴謹在處理。那我要講一下就是說以現在來看Fupenda跟UberEats的Fupenda市佔率是43、UberEats是32反倒是小的並掉大的。那你看所有的抽層幾乎都是三層多。那另外一家比較小家的反倒只有兩層多的一個抽層。所以"},{"start":6624.501,"end":6646.053,"text":"這也是大家所擔憂的啦一旦說兩大病的他們現在兩個在競爭所以他還有可能維持一個比較這樣即使在這樣狀況下都抽成三成多坦白講對商家的負擔其實是頗重的那如果將來整併的話或者是講收購完畢的話有沒有可能就變成了更高的一個這個抽成的一個價格主委有沒有這樣的擔憂"},{"start":6647.901,"end":6649.742,"text":"兩者合併後的市占率高達7乘5,這樣的比例高不高?相當高"},{"start":6675.905,"end":6676.405,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":6704.735,"end":6704.855,"text":"二（二（"},{"start":6728.763,"end":6750.292,"text":"那過去以來其實有非常多禁止結合的案例啦我看有十幾件你們禁止結合即使商家掛保證附帶各項的舉例你們還是有你們的顧慮跟考量所以後來那我舉一個就好了包括好樂迪、錢櫃、包括統一、維利、包括葉蓮、唐榮等等很多家但是我舉一個就好了你們關於這個當時錢櫃跟好樂迪的這個併購的部分"},{"start":6754.634,"end":6768.539,"text":"你們談的最後,你們的結論是怎樣?相關不漲、調漲價格、不減少服務等軍屬短期承諾無法解決長期而言市場因消除主要競爭對手所產生提高價格的誘因。這樣的問題應該也存在著吧?"},{"start":6769.603,"end":6792.939,"text":"對,在這裡我們都會一起考量。包括結合後將顯著減損,他當時這個好得底,所以他是減損要視聽歌唱服務市場的競爭機能有提高價格的高度誘因與能力,消費者與競爭者並無法有效對抗意志,具有顯著競爭,限制競爭之不利益。這應該也符合吧?"},{"start":6796.825,"end":6813.785,"text":"對,我知道你們會討論,我只是再三的跟主委提醒,不要討論出來的結果跟社會有相當大的一個落差。我認為他們兩個的結合整併了這些的這個競爭,限制競爭的不利益,我認為它是高於前面所談到的這些前櫃跟好樂敵。"},{"start":6814.306,"end":6814.586,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":6843.26,"end":6844.56,"text":"兩家都有來說明嗎?兩家都來說明。說明的結果呢?"},{"start":6874.377,"end":6897.809,"text":"這個部分我們是不是之後我們整理以後提供給委員?提供給我們好不好?我也希望公平會要審慎的思考這個之前的時候這個反應的效果還不是那麼的理會那這些那將來他們所回憶的這個結果我講到了這個對於外送員的權益的影響對商家的影響商家抽成3到4成未來可能會更高"},{"start":6899.366,"end":6904.571,"text":"當然未來對消費者會產生一定的影響這個絕對會產生聯合壟斷的行為的部分所以我們希望這一塊要請主委那邊要來嚴格把關我們會召開工地會而且會徵刑相關機關、勞動部、消保會等等"},{"start":6915.561,"end":6931.991,"text":"主委一定要嚴格把關公平一定要嚴格把關不要讓社會感到有很大的一個落差再來我請教一下我們其實在談網路詐騙大家現在非常痛恨網路詐騙那我認為其實廣告資訊透明這是一件重要的事情"},{"start":6932.571,"end":6932.671,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":6957.034,"end":6957.154,"text":"二、審查．"},{"start":6976.185,"end":6976.405,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":7000.633,"end":7026.072,"text":"委員您的提案我們非常重視我也認為廣告組應該是處於可以被找得到這是很重要我們針對這個議題我們也去拜訪很多相關的業者第一個就是說如果這個廣告組有委託廣告代理業通常找得到這個廣告組現在問題就是這些廣告組自己在平台上刊登廣告沒有透過"},{"start":7026.852,"end":7028.953,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7058.1,"end":7084.595,"text":"好不好,謝謝主委,這整個案件請再幫我整個瞭解一下,我們來努力,減少詐騙的發生,好,謝謝。好,謝謝賴瑞榮委員。接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言。來,謝謝主席,有請公民會李主委。來,請李主委。"},{"start":7092.453,"end":7113.533,"text":"主委,有關這兩家外送平台還要結合案,在其他國家有沒有相關的案例?就這兩家在其他國家有沒有相關的情況?這兩家在其他國家有沒有相關的情況?"},{"start":7114.782,"end":7140.92,"text":"這個可能要再進一步瞭解一下你們瞭解說不可能只在台灣發生嘛有可能在其他國家日本、韓國是不是也有相關或者歐洲其他國家是不是有跟台灣類似的狀況?如果是指Fu Panda跟WoodenEats我的瞭解在國外我是沒有看到台灣是第一件?全球第一件?是嗎?你要掌握狀況,主委"},{"start":7143.174,"end":7171.006,"text":"其他國家是不是有相關例子那其他國家怎麼處理沒有嗎就是這兩家的結合我們沒有看到這個案例這兩家的結合只有在台灣出現其他國家還沒有出現目前看到的是這樣所以這個你就非常重要我想問一下這個過去前年過病大論法你們是有條件通過對不對是那有七大負擔"},{"start":7172.52,"end":7201.137,"text":"那你這個未來如果結合之後他可能有寡戰變成獨佔這部分非常嚴重那你沒有競爭對手他就會把這個市場競爭把它弱化不管對合作餐廳對消費者對外送員都是相對是不利所以你要怎麼樣合併才能達到防止限制競爭的目的"},{"start":7202.148,"end":7212.701,"text":"您們有沒有相關的做法?您們怎麼不能說你提出這個四項審查原則但是你要如何進行讓他們進行合併你說哪些負擔或哪些條件"},{"start":7215.014,"end":7234.584,"text":"能夠達到防止限制競爭的目的?跟委員報告,就是說這個結合案,第一個,兩大結合,整個市場結構改變,我們一定會嚴格審查,要嚴格把關。那至於這個審查的結果準或不準,假設是不準,那就沒有負條件或負負擔的問題。假設準了,在談要賦予什麼樣的負擔。那你那個審查的標準在哪裡?"},{"start":7239.775,"end":7240.356,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":7260.902,"end":7261.282,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7284.735,"end":7284.815,"text":"二、審查（"},{"start":7307.028,"end":7322.662,"text":"我們如果這個申請人的文件齊備以後我們開始受理審查期間是30天必要的時候可以再增加60天也就是30天加60天最長。三十天之內你就要做出決定?三十天要做出決定必要的時候可以延長"},{"start":7326.005,"end":7332.791,"text":"五月十四日申請,現在在審查這些文件。五月十四日提出申請。我們就是要等他文件齊備以後,我們就開始授禮這個文件。應該是說授禮申請的。"},{"start":7346.803,"end":7373.84,"text":"等到文件齊備才受理申請（法院規定是說受理立案後30工作天你要做出決定嘛 對不對受理申請是受理申請那你這開始了沒這期間開始了沒文件還沒有齊備的話還沒有開始算所以還沒開始算對還沒開始算好那30天之內還可以再延長一次60工作天是你如果在60天之內最少你沒有做出決定對不對他就可以進行結合嗎是的沒有錯吧是所以你60天之內只要文件齊備你60天之內"},{"start":7376.227,"end":7404.322,"text":"會不會有時間壓力（九十天（有沒有時間壓力（你要辦公廳會（你要收集很多資料（這個我們時間是相當緊湊（所以也會很審慎處理這個案件（所以兩個月（你要針對那麼大的一個結合案（你要做出決定（時間壓力很大（我希望你們那個要方方面面都要考量（你要讓社會能夠接受你們的決定（雖然時間短（我們還是會很嚴格的（很審慎的處理這個案件（"},{"start":7404.844,"end":7404.944,"text":"二、審查．"},{"start":7426.035,"end":7426.815,"text":"二、審查．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":7453.7,"end":7482.381,"text":"你覺得怎麼樣?主委我想要不要訂專法還有譬如說主管機關等等這個都要多面向去考量所以我是覺得這樣子沒有明確的法規跟主管機關的規範我是覺得這個外送平台市場是深入每一個家庭幾乎每一個生活都會用到這個外送平台對不對?包括你我都會使用這個外送平台所以一直沒有一個主管機關沒有一個這主管機關到底是誰?"},{"start":7486.787,"end":7503.614,"text":"要看目的業事業主管機關其實就是說整個外送平台他牽涉的面項很多包括那總要有一個這個行業總要有一個主管機關啊那這個主管到底是誰連你們搞不清楚那你要怎麼去做規範你要怎麼去做在公平會我們處理的是這個競爭秩序的影響所以"},{"start":7512.85,"end":7514.931,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7543.851,"end":7544.091,"text":"您要補充?"},{"start":7572.502,"end":7586.176,"text":"謝謝邱志偉委員接下來我們請楊瓊英召委發言謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請主委來請主委"},{"start":7592.847,"end":7610.285,"text":"委員長主委好,針對於今天本席的提案在提案說明的時候我說明得非常的清楚也就是我們科技發展日新月異生活的形態也一直在改變那全球也大力的在推動"},{"start":7611.266,"end":7611.486,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":7626.52,"end":7626.7,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7651.519,"end":7651.719,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7674.198,"end":7674.999,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7697.361,"end":7718.852,"text":"五指化的一個環保趨勢那這個如果三讀通過之後也敬請行政部門來執行之好謝謝那你這個點頭讓我這信心十足接下來我們要討論外送平台大家非常的關心現在兩家那這個金額據我們媒體看的是307億是嗎"},{"start":7721.894,"end":7723.115,"text":"二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．"},{"start":7736.804,"end":7758.863,"text":"會不會啊?我們要再進一步去精算他的這個市佔率但是是很高一定是很高很高那所以本席要請教這個你也說了你在5月15號那個副主委也表示對外表示這個案子送來之後公平會從市場的集中度"},{"start":7760.369,"end":7780.544,"text":"結合後併購方的定價能力和併案協同效果和併案的協同效果有一個重點叫做聯合行為是不是聯合行為重點在這裡那市場的效應市場的效益這四大原則你們來做審查"},{"start":7781.184,"end":7805.438,"text":"照您剛才說的．他的成分是目前國內兩大家．那占比是非常高幾乎cover的全部那同時在這個聯合行為的這個情況也是在你們四大開會考量的向下非常重要的一點所以本期要請教從我們公平會創會以來"},{"start":7808.519,"end":7808.699,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":7827.142,"end":7828.684,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7844.125,"end":7869.953,"text":"如果併起來他是一個什麼呢?他是一個獨佔市場的合併案。我可以這麼解讀嗎?應該是說如果我們評估的結果整個經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益相比那個經濟利益沒有比較大那這個我們就會禁止。就本次再次強調再次請問公平委員你們自己都承認喔他是一個獨佔市場的合併案"},{"start":7871.394,"end":7872.175,"text":"二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．二、審查．"},{"start":7893.872,"end":7909.017,"text":"如果在併購後當然這個解讀獨證市場的合併案這個解讀應該是會成立接下來我們再討論本期希望公平會你有沒有牙齒你這隻老虎有沒有牙齒你會不會做一個沒有牙齒的老虎"},{"start":7915.171,"end":7944.16,"text":"會不會如此?不會國家賦予我們執法的權利我們一定會做法執行我很高興聽到這一句話國家賦予你這個職責獨立機關單位你要做一個有牙齒的老虎以民、以經濟為基準以我們整個經濟的秩序為安全考量因為觀光外送人員他們的權益要怎麼做也是你們非常重要的考量之一對不對"},{"start":7945.347,"end":7971.28,"text":"是不是是不是外送員餐廳這些消費者都是我們考量的因素都是考量嗎好我也歡喜聽到整個必要的條件都納入在你們未來審議當中未來審議當中我們也希望能夠讓外送平台的外送人員都能夠有他們應當有的一個權益那整個消費市場的秩序能夠安全"},{"start":7971.84,"end":7972.38,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":7998.945,"end":8023.371,"text":"兩千五百萬的這個划環 對不對．好 那請教．因為現在隨便 IG短影音這個長篇圖文平台直播都非常的多大家為了業績一直吹捧一直吹捧不實的內容我們不斷看到所以本次要請教到目前為止你們罰了幾個案子啊罰了幾個案子"},{"start":8026.209,"end":8030.614,"text":"我們對於網路上的不實廣告有相當多的處罰的案例。對於網紅不實的這個廣告,你們罰了幾個案子?"},{"start":8036.994,"end":8061.869,"text":"網紅如果它本身是一個廣告組那它也受我們21條不實廣告的規範對當然那目前我們所以依照這一條你們罰了幾個案子我們就是網紅本身又是廣告組被我們處罰的案例目前沒有這個目前怎樣目前沒有目前沒有嘛但是社會民眾告訴我欸我很害怕欸我點下去我看了到底真的假的"},{"start":8062.95,"end":8082.478,"text":"民眾有這個疑慮到目前為止我們設立了這個法到目前為止沒有辦件的處分但是主委社會上的民眾已經有這樣疑慮所以本期要請教你們針對於網路廣告案件處理方法處理原則到現在是零是零沒有"},{"start":8082.978,"end":8083.138,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":8101.133,"end":8123.085,"text":"我們針對這個網路上的廣告我們有監控如果有這個疑慮是不實廣告我們會主動去查所以主委我再給你民眾的心聲目前大家很疑慮但是你現在依據你的法律目前為止你的處分是零你的處分是零你又有監控代表著代表什麼代表你認為沒有不實廣告嗎"},{"start":8124.787,"end":8126.067,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":8157.746,"end":8166.414,"text":"謝謝主席。我們請公平會李主委還有鍾處長。李主委還有蕭保處鍾處長。請問一下主委。對於這個勿不依次要併購這個Foodpanda這件事情,大概最晚會有結果。"},{"start":8183.666,"end":8183.966,"text":"二、審查（一）"},{"start":8208.618,"end":8226.673,"text":"那這個齁我看你們的報告啦齁那當然就是說你有這個四個審查的重點然後最後再就看他的這一個整體的經濟利益是否大於限制競爭之不利益再做出準博的決定嘛這個整體經濟利益是否大於限制競爭之不利益可不可以再做說明一下"},{"start":8227.253,"end":8253.564,"text":"我想簡單的說明我們觀察結合以後的市場集中程度那再來就是說結合以後併購方他是不是因為競爭對手減少了有提高價格的這個情形再來就是說競爭者變少了那是不是同業間聯合行為的風險會比較高這也是考量那再來就是說他的交易相對的也就是今天大家非常關切的外送員"},{"start":8256.165,"end":8268.709,"text":"我聽你這樣講齁那如果這個真的被變了之後那真的是這一個整體經濟力會縮小啊因為你所講的嘛他市場集中度變大了嘛他現在變成是一個寡占的市場對不對他是不是變成一個寡占的市場"},{"start":8274.305,"end":8288.759,"text":"整個市場因為它施戰率會（對它是一個寡戰市場吧是不是（寡戰或者是獨佔的市場沒有這樣你們公平會對於寡戰跟獨佔有一個精準的定義它是不是一個寡戰的市場目前是寡戰將來結合以後"},{"start":8291.26,"end":8303.295,"text":"就是寡占市場,我們公平會副主委都講說這是一個寡占市場了嘛,對不對?所以你講嘛,它是一個寡占市場,然後定價能力,定價能力因為現在只剩下一家要超過八成,定價能力是不是都是由他來操控來決定?對不對?"},{"start":8309.469,"end":8334.908,"text":"將來結合以後他是不是會有提高提高提價的情形這個是要再觀察那你他合併之後價格由他來決定嘛對不對我們先不管說他是調漲調降他來決定嘛對不對價格因為合併之後價格他自己決定而且他照顧八成的市佔率嘛他就有操控市場價格能力嘛對不對"},{"start":8337.521,"end":8360.81,"text":"就是他的市場力很大對啊那所以呢我按照你們這個四個審查的重點你說他協同的效果聯合行為他已經不只是一個聯合行為因為他就是一個獨佔市場他已經是佔八成的市場了嘛對不對那所以就這個你的四個審查重點來講我自己判斷啦他的這一個整體經濟利益齁"},{"start":8362.773,"end":8363.433,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":8392.13,"end":8401.986,"text":"然後呢合作店家的成本提高會轉嫁給消費者嗎對不對對這是我們的擔憂對那所以主委你要聽一下"},{"start":8403.029,"end":8403.189,"text":"二、審查：一）"},{"start":8425.88,"end":8451.383,"text":"我們的影響就是如同剛剛委員在我們的報告裡面看到的這些那所以我們未來就是因為公平會在審查過程當中依照以往他們都會開座談會或公聽會那我們會到時候會看資料因為我們現在手上也沒有所以我們會看報告上的資料或者開會的資料然後針對這個站在消費者的立場除了剛剛三點以外如果在資料上面有什麼顯示我們認為對消費者不利的部分我們也會在那個會上提供意見給公平會"},{"start":8452.304,"end":8452.784,"text":"接下來我們請羅志強委員發言。"},{"start":8485.498,"end":8510.254,"text":"主席有請主委。來請李主委。委員長。主委好。Fubenda跟UberEats的合併會大幅改變臺灣外送服務市場的格局,對不對?是。這兩家公司在國外都很多龐大的市場份額,在臺灣更高達八成,對不對?"},{"start":8512.73,"end":8512.81,"text":"會產生影響?"},{"start":8531.597,"end":8552.443,"text":"我認為是會產生很多不利的影響那這個希望公平會都能夠去審酌所以要確保的是什麼就是說怎麼樣公平會在處理這個案子外送員消費者跟商家的權益不受侵犯不受侵害這樣的一個基本原則主委認同嗎"},{"start":8553.444,"end":8577.909,"text":"我想在審查這個結合我們最主要一個考慮對競爭的影響那當然整個交易相對人就是併購方的交易相對人餐廳外送員消費者這一些可能的影響都會在評估裡面目前這個已經收到兩家公司的合併申請了嗎收到了我們在5月14號收到申請"},{"start":8578.789,"end":8596.938,"text":"所以基本上是受以申報的起算30工作天內不得進行結合必要時公平會可以審查期間延長60個工作天嘛對不對那我們這個30天的起算期間是從他文件齊備開始算不是從他送件的時候開始算對"},{"start":8598.138,"end":8613.143,"text":"那我想請問就是說未來的審查重點可能我看了一下包括市場集中度、結合後併購方定價能力和併案協同效果就聯合行為然後市場效益"},{"start":8613.863,"end":8640.803,"text":"那麼對於外送服務來說有別於其他產業的結合外送特別的地方在於說有外送員的權益的問題是比較要注意的所以我想問一下主委你有在使用這兩家的外送服務嗎有你有沒有發現兩家外送員經常都看著平台之間的價格在做他的決定調整對不對因為他們的價格是不太一樣的對不對"},{"start":8642.622,"end":8661.202,"text":"我舉個例子啦齁外送員齁我看過他們的攻略分享齁那個熊貓每單最低是44元加單每單最低是加34元然後Uber Eats每單最低40元加單每單最低加24元齁"},{"start":8662.583,"end":8680.771,"text":"那含不定時加碼．不含燙刺獎勵．UberEats的平均美單65元．那熊貓平均美單75元．基本操勞上面．那麼熊貓對外送員工的待遇．看起來在我看到那個分享說是贏過UberEats"},{"start":8681.351,"end":8696.242,"text":"可是當熊貓變成診病的一方的時候請問外送員的這個所謂的他的去取得更好的一個所謂的那個定價的一個籌勞的這個能力也就下降了嗎 對不對這個要再觀察"},{"start":8700.56,"end":8717.909,"text":"另外外送員在這個兩家平台上提供了很重要的服務．他們是整個外送體系的支柱可是所以兩家公司合併的話我剛剛就前面講他們外送員的工作條件會不會受到影響本來我有兩家可以選變一家"},{"start":8719.059,"end":8736.794,"text":"公平會反對壟斷不就是這個意味嗎 對不對基本上這個外送員的選擇變少這會是一個事實那至於將來他們的之間的這個交易條件等等會有什麼變化這個需要再進一步觀察幾乎不用觀察啦他競價能力就變低了"},{"start":8737.575,"end":8756.73,"text":"所以我覺得公平會你如果真的在審查此案的過程當中外送員的權益保障這個部分一定要考量進去請你們一定要考量進去以上謝謝好謝謝羅志強委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":8766.381,"end":8766.522,"text":"主席"},{"start":8775.118,"end":8800.445,"text":"主委長,我想我們大家都非常關心UberEats跟Foodpanda的合併案那合併案當然要經過公平會的審查但我今天要想問的是在去年的九月份其實有委員針對相關的平台業者對於他們外送員的薪資報酬有一些爭議他有幾個問題當時的就是說他可能會片面改變他們的"},{"start":8801.631,"end":8802.992,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":8827.094,"end":8829.016,"text":"所以他們才不在乎公平會的調查"},{"start":8846.843,"end":8852.726,"text":"我的意思是說外送人在去年陳情的時候就是外送平台聯合在砍價第二個全台統一黑箱價不公開不透明現在他們要合併了他們的時間點同時降低外送人的報酬現在那個時候已經形同聯合行為現在進行合併他事實上就是將來合併之後就不用再聯合砍價他就自己砍價就好了"},{"start":8875.077,"end":8895.236,"text":"所以我想問的是八個月你的調查有報告有相關的內容可以提供給我們嗎?所以就算你調查了但是你也沒有做任何處分你有找這些外送產業工會的人溝通過嗎?有瞭解他們的狀況嗎?有瞭解他們個案的情形嗎?有調查他們嗎?"},{"start":8899.281,"end":8918.088,"text":"因為他們告訴我他們什麼都不知道也沒有或許的相關的追蹤我們對於就是這個調查有找這個就是兩個平台主委他們來澄清委員來反映然後你們調查不找他們來不找工會來找跟相關的平台業者來有什麼用嗎如果今天公平會是這樣的方式我現在就很懷疑你們對於將來這個合併案的態度"},{"start":8927.932,"end":8938.877,"text":"有很多人已經說了．如果台灣的公平會不能站在消費者的立場保障消費者的權益保障這些從業人員的權益這個公平會可以廢掉算了八個月前的調查你說沒有證據也沒有找公會的人討論這件事情我們怎麼能夠相信你接下來會公允的討論"},{"start":8949.929,"end":8962.4,"text":"到底有沒有找公會的人過．有沒有討論過．有沒有調查過．主委知道嗎．時間暫停．他有同仁可以幫他補充嗎．有報告嗎．有內容嗎．"},{"start":8966.567,"end":8991.466,"text":"那個我們除了兩家平台業者以外那我們也有找那個我記得我們有找那個外送聯盟的那個請他們提供意見提供意見之後有調查嗎?有結果嗎?有相關的內容回覆給委員嗎?都沒有啊這是怎麼回事啊公平會的調查是自己調查完並高興然後就結案結束誒陳琦那你要回報人家一下啊"},{"start":8993.598,"end":9012.049,"text":"我希望一個禮拜之內把相關的報告拿過來。第二個,如果這個部分當時有這種相關的誠信案件,你們如果沒有調查事實的話,我希望你們重啟調查。第二個部分就是現在的病案。合併案。合併案,你剛剛說有很多的因素要考慮。沒有錯。但是,我們只有幾個要求。"},{"start":9012.509,"end":9037.963,"text":"第一個合作的店家權益要保障消費者的權益羊毛出在羊身上他只要統一調帳消費者一定要付出更高的代價第三個外送員的權益就剛剛講有工會在把他們當成正常人14萬的從業人員他是你必須要考慮而且必須要保護的對象最重要的是美國跟韓國都有制定沖繩的上限"},{"start":9038.763,"end":9067.405,"text":"如果我們的公平會不能在合併案裡面對於他們將來對於商家抽成有相關的規範的話這個公平會也可以廢掉了主委以上是我的意見我希望你一個禮拜把剛剛那個報告交過來那對本案我們會開公聽會會邀請相關的我再說一次如果我們在合併案裡面不能訂定制定抽成的上限比照韓國跟美國公平會也可以廢掉了"},{"start":9068.783,"end":9091.854,"text":"一個禮拜,謝謝。好,謝謝黃珊珊委員。那剛剛黃委員提到的那個調查的報告,我希望﹖對對對,我想也一併送經濟委員會。好,謝謝。來,接下來我們請洪孟凱委員發言。主席,謝謝。好,主席再麻煩請李主委。來,請李主委。"},{"start":9098.82,"end":9108.527,"text":"好 主委 所以現在到目前為止很多委員都質詢跟關心這個Fupenda跟Uber E這個合併我們目前有沒有既定的態度跟立場"},{"start":9110.694,"end":9127.244,"text":"我想這個結合案我們有我們的處理原則那我們會根據申請人所提供的資料以及我們的沒有既定的立場跟態度嗎是不是我們要依據這個資料來審慎來評估是所以沒有說一定讓他併購或是不讓他併購"},{"start":9129.125,"end":9148.775,"text":"議員目前才在檢視這些文件,還沒有說是,所以我想要接下來的問題,因為你們提出來是說即將四大面向審查重點啊。我覺得現在就已經可以告訴你啦,市場集中度一定是高度集中嘛,併購的定價能力一定都是賣方市場嘛。"},{"start":9149.622,"end":9149.782,"text":"二、審查（一）"},{"start":9169.861,"end":9190.529,"text":"十四萬的外送員以及消費者因為消費者他已經只有這樣的一個外送平台可以選擇當然你說有沒有後來的競爭者有可能有但是他的市場規模跟市場機制完全會跟這樣一個如果說合併完之後的一個平台不符合正比啊所以如果說你只講是說要看到這審查重點這事項的話那是不是就會有一個偏撥的一個部分"},{"start":9197.642,"end":9227.185,"text":"有沒有可能?我們要針對申請人所提供的資料那根據這幾個審查面向會審慎去評估那另外我再請教如果要開公聽會預計要開幾場?座談會公聽會預計要開幾場?會看情形會看情形就是公聽會我們沒有說一定是開幾場但是一定會開一定會開那利害關係人也都會找到但因為利害關係人現在可能遍佈全台餐廳遍佈全台外送員遍佈全台消費者遍佈全台"},{"start":9229.084,"end":9254.33,"text":"應該會有一些團體公會,我們會邀請,還有跨機關。但既然是公聽會,當然就要傾聽各界的意見跟聲音嘛。是不是?我想公聽會或座談會絕對不會是淪為一個過水、過場的機制。我想你也不認同嘛。不會。所以既然如此的話,台灣各縣市,不敢講說各縣市都要開,但是不是至少北中南?"},{"start":9255.7,"end":9281.555,"text":"至少都要開這個公聽會怎麼進行我們會再做一個判斷因為我們的審查期間就是30天再加60天90天所以如何有效處理如何有效處理效率很重要但是我們請聽民意很重要瞭解地方行政也很重要是不是來在者我想請教其實這一個也是本席現在到目前為止"},{"start":9282.555,"end":9310.587,"text":"我請同仁去找資料還沒有找到我們公平會因應這樣的一個非常大的一個併購案有人講是說這可能是臺灣除了半逃避產業以外最大比的一個金額併購到目前我們有沒有去找世界各國有沒有其他的案例這兩家的結合就是富編達跟烏貝易我們沒有看到其他沒有嘛 對不對所以臺灣可能會變成首例那其他世界各國有沒有多家外送平台他們併購"},{"start":9312.284,"end":9338.858,"text":"或者是說有沒有世界各國現在已經存在一家獨大外送平台獨大的一個狀況。我可以了解其他國家有外送平台結合的例子但不是這兩家。是那結合的例子?也跟委員說明我們就是說這個案子第一大跟第二大結合是非常少見市場結構會一定會影響完全會影響所以在不管是國際上或是"},{"start":9340.165,"end":9340.465,"text":"二、審查８一）"},{"start":9352.196,"end":9352.456,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":9370.518,"end":9396.448,"text":"是本時要提出來的重點就在於是因為接下來你們30天再加60天總共90天一個審理一定因為既然是遇到首例然後既然是外送平台是這幾年我們甚至講說成熟了可能是這6年這7年之間的一個狀況所以案例的部分我覺得公平會應該有事先做瞭解其他國家的一個狀況那還有最重要其實大家都一樣"},{"start":9397.188,"end":9413.8,"text":"我們之前一直念茲在茲就是外送員以及外送平台的保障法、基本法、專法到目前為止還沒有辦法定立而勞動部或是相關的部落等下也會去衛生委員會請教我們的新任勞動部長他對於外送平台跟外送員的專法他的立場跟態度"},{"start":9414.781,"end":9438.699,"text":"但最重要的是我們看到很多世界各國他們也因應這樣子的一個專法能夠訂出不管是抽成的上限不管是每一個接單外送員的基本的接單的工資還有包括說消費者的一個這個付出的一些代價等等的部分都有一些明確的保障用意就是不要讓不管是兩家龍頭或是一家獨大"},{"start":9439.58,"end":9464.952,"text":"因為市場的寡占或是壟斷而造成消費者、餐廳跟外送員的一個權益受損。但在還沒有辦法有專法之前,公平會一定要審慎評估這一次兩大龍頭的一個併購案。是的。謝謝。好。謝謝黃孟楷委員。接下來請莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄委員不在,我們請黃婕委員。"},{"start":9479.056,"end":9495.065,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們請公平會主委。來,請你主委。主委好,請教一下我手上的這個袋子接下來還有機會用到嗎?"},{"start":9500.066,"end":9506.347,"text":"請回答這個要看結合事業將來的營業模式這就是今天大家想問你的Uber Eats跟熊貓接下來非常有機會併購嗎那接下來公平會的審查到底目前你們的判斷是什麼我手上的這個袋子會不會變成絕版品啊"},{"start":9525.134,"end":9550.47,"text":"我講一下現在這個併購的案子因為其實公平會確實第一時間有出來講但是過去你們也調查八個月了你們第一時間就出來說如果這兩間合併的話市佔率會超過八成也就是說剩下目前還有其他的三間包括福多摩然後蝦皮外送、街口外送這三間的規模跟市佔率絕對沒有辦法跟Uber Eats併購熊貓之後來相抗衡是這樣對嗎?"},{"start":9560.221,"end":9587.712,"text":"結合之後,併購方在市場上會有相當大的一個市場力量,這個是事實。是八成以上嗎?到底多少比例,這個要看市場界定,還會再清楚算。所以到現在還算不出來,市佔率是多少?不是,我們委員上提到那個八成,我們在109年的時候有算過,但是因為現在時空背景不一樣,必須要重新來評估。"},{"start":9588.832,"end":9614.68,"text":"那什麼時候算得出來大家很關心嘛現在小店家很關心消費者很關心外送員也很擔心全台灣14萬的外送員很擔心說接下來他們的權益會不會更被剝奪很多小店家也很擔心抽成的比例會不會變更高很多外送的使用者在我相信在場很多人平常都會叫外送啦"},{"start":9615.862,"end":9640.169,"text":"大家也很擔心會不會到時候變相的不斷漲價沒有人能夠去跟這樣的非常龐大規模的消費模式來做抗衡這是公平會現在應該要做的啊所以我到目前為止還聽不出來你們到底在審查程序進行到如何了你們有沒有趕快先算一下說他們合併上造成的限制競爭的效果到哪裡了"},{"start":9641.564,"end":9664.886,"text":"你可不可以告訴我?我跟委員說明一下我們的結合審查程序是這樣就是他送件以後文件必須要齊備文件齊備以後我們受理了審查期間是30天必要的時候可以再延長60天那所以您剛才所審查的期限是幾月幾號?因為現在文件還在審理當中我們必須要文件都齊備才開始起算這30天"},{"start":9666.047,"end":9686.446,"text":"所以你們有預先做任何準備了嗎?請問就你們的判斷現在如果UberEats併購熊貓之後會不會被認定是限制競爭?應該是說我們會評斷很多面向那您剛才提到的就是包括他的交易相對人、外送員、餐廳甚至是消費者這些戀愛關係人跟併購方將來的溢價能力"},{"start":9690.669,"end":9714.66,"text":"這就是我們最擔心的因為我已經可以想像UberEats接下來會說什麼他會說合併之後我們就產生規模經濟啊成本價格下降啊服務會變更好啊經營效率變更高啊他們的說辭大家都已經知道了所以我想知道的是公平會的態度能不能在接下來對消費者對店家對外送員進行保障嗎尤其是外送員現在非常擔心因為其實在這個過程當中外送費一直在調漲"},{"start":9719.562,"end":9719.722,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":9738.354,"end":9738.514,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":9765.08,"end":9787.53,"text":"我們對這個結合案會去評估對競爭秩序的影響那剛才您談到的這些面向都會在考慮裡面拜託如果你們至少要告訴大家接下來的併購案會不會造成限制競爭接下來Uber Eats的說辭你們有沒有辦法做最嚴格的把關嗎好不好要在委員會裡面討論以後"},{"start":9791.945,"end":9819.113,"text":"主委我希望接下來還有機會看到這個袋子上面的logo可以繼續使用可以讓大家知道說這個市場上還是有多元的選擇消費者不會被欺壓啦謝謝好謝謝黃婕委員接下來我們請麥玉珍麥玉珍麥玉珍委員不在鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在羅廷偉羅廷偉羅廷偉我們不在蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉我們不在何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳我們不在我們請蔡易宇委員發言"},{"start":9835.741,"end":9849.612,"text":"主席,那我們是不是請我們李主委。李主委好。"},{"start":9850.64,"end":9877.643,"text":"主委這個還是先從關鍵的問題來請教一下啦就是說公平交易法事實上有一些名詞的定義但是這些名詞的定義並沒有一個清楚的一個分成號的一個數字的一個展現所以我想要請教主委就完全競爭跟所謂的寡戰市場跟獨佔市場這三個要怎麼區分"},{"start":9880.72,"end":9902.294,"text":"有定義嗎?處於一個沒有競爭的狀態是一個獨占嗎?沒有競爭所以就是他占有市場是100%就是獨占不一定是100%就是看在市場上處於沒有競爭沒有競爭那如果對手太弱對手可能只占著5%他占了95%或者是他占了90%這樣算獨占嗎?那個95%應該一般來看應該已經是獨占95%啊90算嗎?"},{"start":9910.034,"end":9916.451,"text":"我們是用這個50啦,用50來看就很可能是獨占了。喔,超過50就獨占了?"},{"start":9917.698,"end":9944.745,"text":"那定義上獨佔超過50就算了喔那寡佔呢?就是它是幾個面向的齁這是幾個面向好沒關係我們先不要管太多面向啦最主要就是沒有競爭狀態就是獨佔對我們先用直白的競爭的這個角度來思考來看這個法條的所謂定義好不好所以獨佔是指你的主委意思說可能在50%以上那可能就是沒有競爭就會變獨佔有可能有可能那寡佔呢?"},{"start":9947.932,"end":9948.372,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":9967.927,"end":9968.968,"text":"二（二年前也有很"},{"start":9996.99,"end":9997.411,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":10017.626,"end":10037.717,"text":"一哥跟二哥分別吃下了一些小老弟那他們把小老弟排除掉了有可能會變成寡占嗎?因為前年跟大陸發病我們當時的算他的市占率其實才30幾那臺灣的零售從事零售行業的業者是相當多當然啦我知道很多嘛可是畢竟他是大哥啊他當時算出來是"},{"start":10040.778,"end":10044.563,"text":"二哥也是要再吃掉一哥。Uber Eats要吃掉Fu Panda。"},{"start":10061.417,"end":10075.913,"text":"那以剛剛主委你講的可能到了50%的一個市場他可能就已經是到獨占了那寡占可能就是像聽起來你認為在三十幾%的時候還不構成寡占因為你說全年吃掉"},{"start":10077.354,"end":10078.255,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":10097.932,"end":10125.119,"text":"不同的產業有不同的情況其實很難用加數或者是比例要看它整個市場競爭的狀況總是有一些比較直白的認定因為大家消費者都是這樣去看說到底我們這一個我們生活的環境裡面遇到這個產業這個產業它有沒有處在一個壟斷或者是一個寡占的一個規模這個我想大家心裡都有數"},{"start":10126.119,"end":10155.029,"text":"那主委你這樣來看的話那這樣的一個外送平台他們到底是兩個加起來會變獨佔還是寡佔?兩個加起來市占率那麼高應該可以到獨佔的情況兩個加起來就獨佔了好啊如果既然這樣的話就是說這兩個一哥二哥並一哥會變成獨佔的一個市場那是不是未來所有的交易的一個條件都是由這個新的"},{"start":10156.243,"end":10161.687,"text":"二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．一．二、審查．"},{"start":10185.282,"end":10185.522,"text":"二、審查（一）"},{"start":10204.378,"end":10229.105,"text":"對兩家公司結合不管是在公司法或是這個其他的這個法律都會有一些權利義務如何交接的問題那就公平會來講我們審查的是對競爭秩序的影響所以這個面向會包括將來的市場集中度還有這個併購方將來這個台價的能力還有交易相對的我們剛剛提到這個外送員餐廳或者是消費者我舉例我舉例"},{"start":10230.925,"end":10232.426,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":10260.25,"end":10269.302,"text":"那復編大以前禁止僱用的會回來嗎?這是也涉及到一些勞動條件就是他們自己條件所以這部分都不在你們的"},{"start":10270.458,"end":10295.658,"text":"你們的考量範圍．我們會考慮到這一些外送員過去．他們不用把這些狀況跟你們報告嗎就是說我們這兩家併購了那麼未來要怎麼運作這件事也要讓你們知道吧我們會需要了解我們都會去了解啊這需要了解嗎我們將來跟外送員的部分除了我們會徵詢利害關係人外送員的意見也會跟勞動部跨機關來做交換意見"},{"start":10297.379,"end":10313.039,"text":"對你除了遵循外送人意見我覺得你最主要要先問清楚這兩家到底他們過去他們所有的權益關係包括跟商家包括跟外送人他們的權益關係在於他們如果併購"},{"start":10314.605,"end":10314.785,"text":"二（二（二（二（"},{"start":10332.793,"end":10332.933,"text":"二、審查．"},{"start":10363.896,"end":10365.339,"text":"陳超明 陳超明 陳超明委員不在"},{"start":10375.08,"end":10397.256,"text":"好,登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束另外有林黛樺委員、陳冠廷委員、陳昌明委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會我們現在開始進行審查多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案現在進行廣泛討論"},{"start":10399.177,"end":10411.746,"text":"廣泛討論沒有人登記發言請議事人員宣讀條文宣讀完畢以後我們再進行協商請宣讀多層次傳銷管理法委員邱志偉等人提案第十三條多層次傳銷事業與傳銷商參加其傳銷計劃或組織時"},{"start":10415.949,"end":10442.88,"text":"因與傳銷商締結書面參加契約．並交付契約正本．前項之書面得以電子文件為之。委員楊瓊英等人提案第十三條．同委員邱志偉等人提案。宣讀完畢。好,我們現在開始進行協商。來,我們差一位齁。走入中嗎?"},{"start":10446.782,"end":10448.783,"text":"來,那個蔡議委員對條文有沒有意見?"},{"start":10474.117,"end":10492.569,"text":"我想要請教一下這個主委以電子文件這個書面用電子文件它的差距主要在哪邊?如果現在電子文件的話對於這個參加多層次傳銷的人他的權利的一個保障會不會不夠?"},{"start":10497.537,"end":10521.935,"text":"好,薛委現在是一定要書面白紙黑字有一個紙本那今天的這個草案是說除了書面以外也可以選擇用電子方式那因為電子方式其實還是可以下載看到內容所以我們認為對在這個數位經濟時代大家對這個電子文件接受度也高那權利義務不會受影響但是如果用電子的文件很多常常就是"},{"start":10524.178,"end":10549.769,"text":"就是說我在閱讀,閱讀它的文字的習慣很容易就是會直接把它刷掉、滑過去。雖然紙本很多人也是…也是…但是如果用電子的話會不會比例又提高,那這個會不會造成我們這樣的一些文件他們的閱讀不夠,所以他們不清楚它的權利與關係。"},{"start":10552.005,"end":10552.185,"text":"好,來請邱志偉委員。"},{"start":10576.817,"end":10576.897,"text":"二、審查（"},{"start":10595.525,"end":10624.101,"text":"所以第一個你節省很多這個文書作業也節省減碳、無紙化那這個當然要趕上時代的趨勢所以我們有電子簽商法對不對那很多的公部門這些公文書很多是用電子來所以它契約當然是固然重要但是基本上它的這個真實性、安全性跟資訊的揭露這完整性都沒有問題只要三點沒有問題"},{"start":10624.941,"end":10651.751,"text":"我想這個我們就可以打到這個電子化用電子文件我想這個主委那個公平會議應該是樂觀其成吧好好謝謝好來呃單仁委員好那我可不可以再補問一下了那既然如此的話為什麼之前公平會沒有主動來提出這樣的一個修法的建議如果你們認為這個其實可以做得到為什麼當時並沒有主委要不要說明一下好不好"},{"start":10653.215,"end":10676.891,"text":"在上會期,我們有多位委員,好幾個版本都有提到這個議題。那我們認為說,這個委員的版本裡面都有這個十三條的修正案。那在那邊審查已經...所以你們在上一屆期就同意了是不是?是。好,就第十三條。第十三條不...就是以電子方式維持...所以你們上一屆...那為什麼上一屆沒有來通過?因為上一屆它有很多個條文,有一些條文意見..."},{"start":10678.809,"end":10680.289,"text":"二（二（二（二（二（二（"},{"start":10706.016,"end":10730.79,"text":"原則上可以支持啦但是我想要呼籲公平會的就是說他們是不是在於電子文件的一些主要內容就是涉及到他們權利這個多層次傳銷的參加人他的權利義務涉及到比較重要的比方說會不會被片面解約或者是他們涉及到裡面的一些"},{"start":10732.851,"end":10756.91,"text":"有一些分紅啊一些重要的條文是不是應該要請他們設計不能藏匿在我這一篇這個電子文件就寫了一大堆然後就藏匿在裡面是不是可以把他們重要認為是屬於重要的交易事項是要在電子文件裡面比較清楚的讓他展明出來"},{"start":10758.041,"end":10781.259,"text":"在這個參加契約應該記載哪些事項現在我們採報備是我們都會去看這些契約的內容要讓他很清楚所以這部分我們有在這個我意思就是說因為你現在電子文件嘛所以那個問題很多熱熱的就沒人要看是是是你要怎麼保障他們就是說他們可不可以做分頁的方式因為電子頁可以第一頁第二頁嘛"},{"start":10782.06,"end":10785.381,"text":"好,謝謝各位委員的意見表達,那請問各位委員對於這兩個委員的提案有沒有意見?"},{"start":10803.288,"end":10820.198,"text":"好,沒有的話,我們是不是就依照邱志偉委員、楊卓英委員的提案條文通過,好嗎?好,謝謝。好,討論事項所列多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案,並案審訊完畢。擬具審查報告提報院會討論,請問需不需要交由黨團協商?"},{"start":10823.536,"end":10834.556,"text":"不須交黨團協商．約會討論時由本席代表說明．通過之條文相關法制用於授權主席及議事人員整理．本日議程處理完略．現在散會。謝謝大家。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}