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在我來看這都有非常重大的違憲嫌疑啦那當然他現在肆無忌憚啊因為大法官會議的憲法法庭已經人數不足沒有辦法開庭啊現在也不知道誰來決定違憲啊所以這就亂了套啦 亂來啊"},{"start":236.792,"end":243.699,"text":"我們本席在財政委會今年是第14年我們的舉債上限曾經高達38點多將近上限40.6 馬政府時代"},{"start":251.274,"end":270.405,"text":"那當然因為我們的經濟總體成長一直在成長這幾年來財政狀況有變得比較好所以我們的舉債的那個比例佔GDP一直在下降現在只佔前三年GDP平均數的25.8%這是你剛講的跟當年的38.多那是差多少差了十幾個百分點"},{"start":278.75,"end":302.437,"text":"然後現在可以睜眼說瞎話說以前的財政狀況就很好現在財政狀況就很差先有立場再講話就先設見再畫靶我覺得這樣也不好就事論事所以我是覺得說你也很委屈啦因為我知道有一些民意代表很強勢你這邊如果你敢跟他回嘴說這有違憲之嫌恐怕他就不會放你乾休了但是我可以講"},{"start":306.399,"end":331.156,"text":"一樣大家都是委員我在看這就是違憲那至於該不該補發現金或是該不該發消費券其實歷屆政府都有馬政府時代也有蔡政府時代也有但是一個共同的特點都是行政機關行政權根據當時的社會需要去思考去研究之後來決定該不該發這才是正辦嘛"},{"start":335.798,"end":358.38,"text":"歷來都是這樣做嘛這就是我們台灣為什麼要有憲法的原因啊大家要照憲法走啊 不然就亂了套啦那再來 現在儀美論很多啊川普上任之後 他講的叫做對等關稅其實以我的觀點來看喔對等關稅反而對台灣有利啊"},{"start":359.461,"end":382.766,"text":"為什麼呢 因為台灣以前被惡霸中華人民共和國打壓很多的國際之間的條約都沒辦法參加國際之間的關稅領域什麼RCEP或是說什麼東南亞關貿協定都不讓我們參加都是因為政治上的原因所以台灣的廠商才會在20年前 20幾年前要"},{"start":384.306,"end":400.903,"text":"平民外移主要是移到中國去原因就是在這個地方他因為政治的因素打壓台灣的立場所以台灣這個國家的製造業他比較辛苦他常常他的關稅比跟他競爭的國家比起來是比較高的"},{"start":401.943,"end":406.587,"text":"那如果確實能夠落實對等關稅的話所謂對等關稅就是我們課美國多少關稅美國課我們多少關稅定義上是這樣那當然細節是要經過兩國之間的會商跟談判如果這樣子我們在關稅上就不會被競爭國家佔便宜"},{"start":422.54,"end":450.009,"text":"中國的鋼鋁美國不是要給他課關稅嗎說要課25%關稅嗎那一個禮拜中鋼應聲大漲奇怪了對他們課關稅為什麼中鋼會大漲原因是因為我們以前就是在繳25%的關稅啊那現在他把它拉到25%我們競爭地位就平等了嘛所以我們跟這個競爭的時候我們在外銷社競爭的時候就變成對台灣有利"},{"start":451.181,"end":477.334,"text":"所以有的人是先 反正我討厭川普啦我看他在支持台灣 他在對付中國 他很不爽他就找了一對一個理由 從中國那邊發動以美論然後利用各種管道滲透到台灣來讓大家都知道 是不是美國對我們很不好美國有對我們不好嗎我們每一年給人家貿易順差700多億 去年"},{"start":478.659,"end":497.854,"text":"賺了人家兩兆五千億的台幣國際貿易在邏輯上在原理上是要追求平衡的如果有一個國家每一年賺你台灣六七百億的美金的外匯那今年累月台灣也會叫啊這樣顯不公平嘛"},{"start":499.073,"end":524.022,"text":"對不對所以我是覺得我們一方面是面對國際現實我們要選邊站隊我們當然是要站在民主自由人權的國家這一邊一方面我們國家的作為也要讓人家看出是一個負責任的國家我們已經不是以前那種開發中國家那種心態對等關稅是一個很合理的標準啊細節當然要好好來談啊"},{"start":526.043,"end":553.179,"text":"那我們台灣要走出去如果對人家的貿易寸差這麼大的時候想辦法要多從他的國家採購物品或是雙方面的貿易經貿要繼續加深然後盡量在中間求取平衡所以大宗物資採購如果一樣的條件我們當然就應該優先跟他買能源的採購條件相同我們優先跟他買甚至國防武器的採購"},{"start":554.62,"end":577.497,"text":"那麼金融帳也一樣啊盡量雙方面之間我們要增加對他的投資啊所以賴總統就有呼籲說台灣的廠商如果你算一算覺得合理應該增加對美國的投資是不是有講過這個沒有錯我們應該國際間追求貿易的平衡是一個正常的事這是在展現台灣是一個國際之間負責任的經貿大國的一個態度"},{"start":579.959,"end":589.945,"text":"所以這個不是只有說因為美國要求我們不是因為這樣我們如果沒有照世界的標準在世界的舞台上面我們就不能跟人家講說台灣can't help"},{"start":591.943,"end":618.06,"text":"我們有能力幫助人家我們至少做到平等之後我們有能力還要再幫助更弱小的國家被打壓被欺負的國家這樣才是正確的心態嘛大家才會說你台灣人了不起啊走到哪裡都被人家稱讚我們這個護照出去那麼多國免簽才有道理啊那台灣如果不負責任就是要一個態度就是我就是打算佔便宜人家久了之後人家也不會高興嘛"},{"start":619.846,"end":637.811,"text":"所以我是覺得說現在的官很為難因為你的回答稍不得體或是說其實很得體但是只是你的用詞不照他的標準就有可能被霸凌現在都要求說公務員不要被霸凌但是有時候民意代表都會霸凌公務員霸凌官員"},{"start":639.213,"end":655.781,"text":"大家應該是在這個地方平等的就事論事我再次跟你強調不要偷換概念你們財政部所屬的單位你要通令什麼還稅於民啊 什麼超增啊這個在你們體系以後這個詞都不能用這個都是錯誤的觀念啦 好不好 加油 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":225,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時36分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好！"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早！我是覺得有一些名詞的使用要正確，不要有置換的概念。第一個，我還要再一次的提醒，中華民國是租稅法定主義，也就是我們國家要收的每一筆稅金、每一毛錢都必須法律有規定，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，都是依法有據的。"],["吳委員秉叡：法律有規定徵收，可不可以不徵收？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然不行。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以沒有什麼叫超徵嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：是實收數比預算數多，這才是正確的概念嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我拜託財政部所屬的單位，以後不要用「超徵」這兩個字，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，當然不能用超徵，我們每一塊錢每一毛錢都是依法課徵，沒有所謂的超徵。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以是實收數高於預算數。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，也就是實收數高於預算數。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二，我反對還稅於民的講法，無論過去或是未來有沒有要普發現金，都不叫還稅於民。要把錢還給繳稅的人，那叫還稅於繳稅者，才叫「還稅於民」嘛！那還最多的應該是台積電，它繳最多，怎麼會是大家普發呢？零歲到還未成年的小朋友還沒有繳稅，他們有沒有普發現金？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然是有。"],["吳委員秉叡：那叫做還稅給他嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是啊！"],["吳委員秉叡：所以不要再用還稅於民這四個字，我也請財政部不要用還稅於民這四個字，這是錯誤的概念。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：這是一個誤導。再來，本院有審議預算的權利，但是我們沒有提出預算的權利，所以憲法裡明文規定，立法委員做預算審查的時候，不可以為增加預算之提案，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛有委員講112年有普發，為什麼現在就不可以？就是你講的時空環境不一樣，那誰決定？當然是行政權決定。其實預算跟人事是行政權的兩大核心，今天如果行政權考量臺灣的經濟需要加速發展，或是說我們消費不振，無論是要發消費券、無論是要發現金，這都是行政機關的提案，必須先提特別條例到本院來審議，經過本院審議通過之後，才根據特別條例編列預算再到本院審議，程序是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員說的是。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果立法機關脫法弄一個法律案，其實在搞預算，就我來看，這都有非常重大的違憲嫌疑啊！當然它現在肆無忌憚，因為大法官會議的憲法法庭已經因人數不足沒有辦法開庭，現在也不知道誰決定違憲，所以這就亂了套、亂來啊！本席在財政委員會今年是第14年，我們的舉債上限曾經高達百分之三十八點多，將近上限40.6%，誰？馬政府時代。因為我們的總體經濟一直在成長，這幾年來財政狀況有變得比較好，所以我們舉債占GDP比例一直在下降，現在只占前三年GDP平均數的25.8%，這是您剛講的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：跟當年的三十八點多那是差多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：差了十幾個百分點，然後現在可以睜眼說瞎話說以前的財政狀況叫很好，現在財政狀況叫很差，先有立場再講話，就先射箭再畫靶，我覺得這樣也不好，要就事論事。所以我覺得你也很委屈，因為我知道有一些民意代表很強勢，如果你敢跟他回嘴說這有違憲之嫌，恐怕他就不會放你甘休了嘛！但是我可以講，大家一樣都是委員啊！我在看這就是違憲，至於該不該普發現金，或是該不該發消費券，其實歷屆政府都有，馬政府時代有、蔡政府時代也有，但是共同的特點都是行政機關、行政權根據當時的社會需要，基於思考及研究之後，再來決定該不該發，這才是正辦，歷來都是這樣做嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：這就是我們臺灣為什麼要有憲法的原因，大家要照憲法走，不然就亂了套了。","再來，現在疑美論很多，川普上任之後，他講的「對等關稅」，以我的觀點來看，對等關稅反而對臺灣有利，為什麼呢？因為臺灣以前被惡霸「中華人民共和國」打壓，我們都沒辦法參加很多國際之間的條約、關稅領域RCEP，或是東南亞關貿協定，都是因為政治上的原因，所以臺灣的廠商才會在二十幾年前拚命外移，主要是移到中國，原因就是在這個地方嘛！它因為政治的因素打壓臺灣的立場，所以臺灣的製造業比較辛苦，關稅常常比其他競爭的國家高，如果能夠確實落實對等關稅，所謂對等關稅就是我們課美國多少關稅，美國就課我們多少關稅，定義上是這樣，當然細節是要經過兩國之間的會商跟談判，如果這樣子，我們在關稅上就不會被競爭國家占便宜。美國不是要課中國鋼鋁25%的關稅嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那個禮拜中鋼應聲大漲，奇怪啦！對它們課關稅，為什麼中鋼會大漲？原因是我們以前就在繳25%的關稅，那現在把它們拉到25%，我們競爭地位就平等了嘛！所以在外交競爭的時候，就變成對臺灣有利。有的人反正是討厭川普，看他在支持臺灣、對付中國，他很不爽，就找了一堆理由，從中國那邊發動疑美論，然後利用各種管道滲透到臺灣，讓大家都覺得是不是美國對我們很不好，美國有對我們不好嗎？我們每年對人家貿易順差七百多億，去年賺了人家2兆5,000億的新臺幣，國際貿易在邏輯上、原理上是要追求平衡的，如果有個國家每年賺臺灣6、700億的美金外匯，積年累月，臺灣也會叫啊！這樣顯不公平嘛！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我覺得一方面是面對國際現實，我們要選邊站隊，當然是要站在民主自由人權國家的這一邊，另一方面是我們國家的作為，也要讓人家看出是一個負責任的國家，我們已經不是以前開發中國家的那種心態，對等關稅是一個很合理的標準，細節當然要好好談，那我們臺灣要走出去，如果對人家的貿易順差這麼大的時候，想辦法要多從它的國家採購物品或是雙方面的經貿要繼續加深，然後儘量在中間求取平衡。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，貿易平衡。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以大宗物資採購、能源採購，甚至國防武器的採購，如果條件一樣或相同，我們當然應該優先跟它買，金融帳也一樣，儘量雙方之間，我們要增加對它的投資，所以賴總統就有呼籲臺灣的廠商，如果算一算覺得合理，應該增加對美國的投資，是不是有講過這個？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，國際間追求貿易的平衡，應該是一個正常的事。"],["吳委員秉叡：這是在展現臺灣是一個國際之間負責任經貿大國的態度。"],["莊部長翠雲：負責任，是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以不是說因為美國要求我們，不是因為這樣，我們如果沒有照世界的標準在世界的舞臺上，就不能跟人家講「Taiwan Can Help」，我們有能力幫助人家，至少做到平等之後，有能力還要再幫助更弱小、被打壓、被欺負的國家，這樣才是正確的心態嘛！大家才會說你臺灣人了不起，走到哪裡都被大家稱讚，我們這個護照有那麼多國免簽，才有道理啊！如果臺灣就是個不負責任的態度，就是打算占便宜，久了之後，人家也不會高興嘛！","我覺得現在的官員很為難，因為你的回答稍不得體，或是其實很得體，但是你的用詞不照他的標準，就有可能被霸凌，現在要求公務員不要被霸凌，但是有時候民意代表都會霸凌公務員、霸凌官員。大家應該是在這個地方平等的就事論事。我再次跟你強調不要偷換概念，你們財政部所屬的單位要通令，什麼還稅於民啦、什麼超徵啦，在你們體系以後這個詞都不能用，都是錯誤的觀念啦，好不好？加油，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝秉叡。","接著請賴士葆召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}