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請那個部長董事長你好委員好面對現在常常共軍老台那這個情況好像越來越"},{"start":31.073,"end":41.942,"text":"國安基金現在操作的情況怎麼樣它的規模是多少需不需要再往上來增加基金的規模"},{"start":43.688,"end":63.317,"text":"國安基金根據國安基金的設置管理條例裡面它可運用的資金總額是五千億那其中兩千億是跟金融機構來借款另外借用政府的四大基金三千億那歷來我們的進場呢都是用這個借款的方式還沒有動用到四大基金"},{"start":64.332,"end":82.236,"text":"那五千億的規模夠不過五千億的規模當然我們知道目前因為在國安基金是八十九年成立的那個條例那時候規定那目前的台股的市值達到七十一點六兆是當時的九倍了然後外資的持股也佔了四成那對台股的這個狀況是越來越嚴重然後加上"},{"start":88.537,"end":108.304,"text":"國際的情勢的一個變化我們認為我們會一直持續的關注這個股市的一個動態然後來考量這個國安基金的一個目前的一個規模但是目前來說應該是還在這個運用的範圍裡面當年設置的時候股市不到一萬點啊不到一萬點現在股市已經兩萬點啊那"},{"start":114.827,"end":123.277,"text":"除非你認為台灣股市不具備挑戰三萬點的實力所以國安基金不需要那麼大啊"},{"start":124.872,"end":128.254,"text":"這個兩者應該沒有,因為我們剛剛有報告過了以今年的3月18號上市工資的總市值大概有71.6兆當然是比國安基金當時成立的時候已經有9倍之多了所以國安基金要不要5乘以9倍乘以9倍"},{"start":145.527,"end":170.56,"text":"那這個部分也涉及到條例的要修正那我們會持續的關注如果修正的話大概希望會調高到多少這個部分還需要這個省政的一個研議看就是要調高到多少那誰來研議那當然目前國安基金我們持續都是一直在關注那目前國安基金已經退場了嗎因為最近外資匯出很多"},{"start":174.497,"end":199.6,"text":"那我們看到台積電從最高是一股多少一千多少一千二一千一百三十五是不是好像那麼多啦,已經破一千塊了我們發現因為台積電逐漸變成美積電的時候我們的護國神山走山了"},{"start":201.212,"end":228.537,"text":"手三大家心裡很緊張啊部長你會不會緊張跟委員報告台積電就是台積電它不會成為美積電也不會成為日積電我們這個台積電本來就是一個大型的一個公司國際型的公司它其實像這個全球佈局是公司的一個策略我相信這個部分大家不要把它講成是美積電那護國神山依然是護國神山"},{"start":229.386,"end":256.724,"text":"那為什麼他突然在今年才說要投資美國以前不投資今年投資他準備到美國投資多少之前在亞利桑那已經投資是投資650億嘛那未來會投資1000億那我想一個公司他在對外對全球布局1000億美元那對外對國際的一個全球布局有他公司經營的一些策略川普說"},{"start":258.536,"end":280.903,"text":"要變成兩千億美元喔部長你有沒有統計過台積電它是護國神山最重要的基礎那半導體以台積電為主周邊的企業大概有多少家上市公司"},{"start":282.543,"end":311.669,"text":"這個部分有關所謂它周邊的產業的相關的生產鏈這個部分有多少公司我沒有做過統計那你研究一下好不好我研究一下那我想這個經濟部會研究因為它是一個中心當這個中心移開的時候原本可以對台灣資本支出就是投資在台灣的部分減少了減少了很多很多三兆"},{"start":312.864,"end":327.238,"text":"如果是兩千億美元的話資本支出本來原本六兆是要投資台灣的現在加上周邊的企業部長連根拔起"},{"start":330.936,"end":347.55,"text":"跟流台灣依然是台積電的一個政策它在台灣的一個投資還是會持續進行我請教部長那你有沒有算過就是台積電一年啊它對台灣稅收的貢獻是多少"},{"start":349.63,"end":370.545,"text":"你剛講得很好啊所有上市公司是71兆啊那我再問部長一句啊那台積電的市值是多少?你剛講得很好啊全部上市是71兆嘛那台積電的市值是多少?33條啦33條啦 不定"},{"start":379.178,"end":407.911,"text":"所以當他離開的時候影響是很大的我在這邊苦口婆心講是說大家不要輕忽啊因為很多我們銀行界的這個董事長總經理稍微挫在手上你想想看嘛這些錢如果不移到美國去三兆加三兆六兆放在銀行裡面多溫暖啊"},{"start":409.11,"end":436.697,"text":"去年所有的金融機構獲利的情況怎麼樣?去年的金融機構的獲利算是不錯是不錯喔?好那我們看看所有的今天的公股銀行在內基內控方面部長你有沒有自信說我們的內基內控因為都是公家的都是公務體系應該不會出問題吧?"},{"start":440.558,"end":462.066,"text":"根委員報告內積內控一直是各公股銀行非常重視的那財政部也在相關的會議裡面提醒大家不能鬆懈對於內積內控要強化而且因應外界的情勢變化應該要有更周全的一個機制結果不要鬆懈也沒有鬆懈他們不會鬆懈"},{"start":464.227,"end":487.337,"text":"那最近所有公股銀行裡面有沒有被金管會處罰的啊被金管會處罰的是有哪一個當然我們知道您提的大概應該就是台灣銀行的兩位行員跟詐團的一些的一些不法的一些做法你剛剛說你不會鬆懈啊不會鬆懈為什麼會被處罰"},{"start":488.696,"end":514.691,"text":"不會鬆懈但是有些行員他就是走相關的漏洞這也就是我們還是要加強控管的部分公家機關在民眾的心裡是一個堅而不破的信用之牆錢如果存在公股的金融體系台灣銀行"},{"start":516.246,"end":527.965,"text":"我還擔心說半夜被偷被盜裡面還有很多的詐騙集團那不是打破了長年以來民眾對台灣銀行的信心嗎"},{"start":529.292,"end":535.793,"text":"委員沒有裡面有很多詐騙集團台灣銀行裡面沒有很多什麼詐騙集團那為什麼會被處罰呢這兩個行員的個人行為那已經提起公訴了已經被起訴了然後也免職了那裡面內部的主管同仁也給予行政的懲處那對於金管會的一個裁罰我們也尊重那當然我們也把這個案例要告知所有的各銀行"},{"start":557.518,"end":581.513,"text":"要告訴他們,不可以有僥倖的心,法往恢恢,疏而不漏所以部長,準規罪無分,昨天之錯好像從來沒發生過沒有什麼傳過水無門的一句話也沒說,然後就過去了?不會啊部長,以前從來沒有公股銀行有發生這種重大的金融事件"},{"start":583.846,"end":608.043,"text":"這個部分我想我們一定還是會加強的跟各公股行鋪要宣導我相信他們內部也都做了許多的一個措施是因為管理階層薪水太少或者是說管理不當你看今天的所有公股銀行裡面很多人都是你看嘛一個職務然後就兼誰誰兼董事長"},{"start":610.216,"end":632.354,"text":"然後兼代理總經理這個代董再來還有這個誰兼董事長的然後誰兼多少還有董事長兼總經理的總經理兼董事長部長你這個人事不重要嗎"},{"start":634.022,"end":652.639,"text":"人事的部分當然是很重要什麼時候會有新的一波人事有一些下面的子公司或孫公司也許會由他們去兼那你意思說台灣中小企業的董事長總經理可以兼董事長就一直兼下去嗎不會"},{"start":654.414,"end":669.393,"text":"不會一日間你這個職務懸在那邊很久了你為什麼不充分的授權各司其職然後不要出現有漏洞的地方當然"},{"start":670.194,"end":683.305,"text":"本身我們的董總們都有他的權責在公司治理上他們是有他們的權責去處理沒有所謂的授權問題你總不能說財政部部長你又去兼負稅署署長去兼關務署署長"},{"start":687.165,"end":701.862,"text":"那個職務考量這個地方就有它的功能性吧當然部長什麼時候會有新一波的人事布達新一波的人事布達隨著台企營的董事長辭職以後後續會有一波會移動後續什麼時候後續這個時間應該不會太久會不會超過一年"},{"start":708.55,"end":733.575,"text":"不會超過一年不會超過一個月這個部分我想不會在太久的時候是不會超過一個禮拜還是一個月這個部分我想您不久以後就會知道好啦,我這邊提醒的就是說要栓緊各個螺絲是的那個你輕鬆愉快沒出事我們直訓也不用那麼辛苦啊"},{"start":735.278,"end":735.839,"text":"好 加油啦好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":923,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時31分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請財政部莊翠雲莊部長？"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["羅委員明才：莊部長你好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：面對共軍擾臺的情況好像越來越頻繁，國安基金現在操作的情況怎麼樣？它的規模是多少，需不需要再往上來增加基金的規模？"],["莊部長翠雲：根據國安基金設置管理條例，國安基金裡面可運用的資金總額是5,000億，其中2,000億是跟金融機構借款，另外借用政府的四大基金3,000億，歷來我們的進場都是用借款的方式，還沒有動用到四大基金。"],["羅委員明才：那5,000億的規模夠不夠？"],["莊部長翠雲：5,000億的規模，當然我們知道目前，因為國安基金是89年成立的，條例是那時候規定的，目前臺股的市值達到71.6兆，是當時的9倍了，當時的9倍，然後外資的持股也占了四成，對臺股的重要性越來越嚴重，加上國際情勢的變化，我們會一直持續地關注股市的動態，然後考量國安基金目前規模的適切性，但是目前來說，應該還在運用的範圍裡面。"],["羅委員明才：當年設置的時候，股市不到一萬點，現在股市已經兩萬點，除非你認為臺灣股市不具備挑戰三萬點的實力，所以國安基金不需要那麼大。"],["莊部長翠雲：這兩者應該沒有……我剛剛也報告過了，以今年的3月18號上市公司總市值大概有71.6兆，當然是比國安基金當時成立的時候，已經有9倍之多了，換言之當時大概是8兆……"],["羅委員明才：所以國安基金的規模要不要提高為5,000億乘以9倍？"],["莊部長翠雲：乘以9倍喔？這個部分因為也涉及到條例的修正，我們會持續的關注情勢的變化來做適當……"],["羅委員明才：如果修正的話，大概希望會調高到多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分還需要審慎的研議看要調高到多少的規模……"],["羅委員明才：那誰來研議？什麼時候開始研議？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們一直都持續在關注，目前國安基金已經退場了，上一次進場之後已經退場了。"],["羅委員明才：最近外資匯出很多，我們看到台積電從最高一股多少？一千多、一千二？1,135是不是？好像那麼多，已經破1,000塊了，我們發現台積電逐漸變成美積電的時候，我們的護國神山走山了，走山，大家心裡很緊張，部長，你會不會緊張？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，台積電就是台積電，它不會成為美積電，也不會成為日積電。我們台積電本來就是一個大型的、國際型的公司，它的全球布局是公司的一個策略，我相信這個部分大家不要把它講成是美積電，護國神山依然是護國神山。"],["羅委員明才：為什麼它突然在今年才說要投資美國？以前不投資，今年投資，它準備到美國投資多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：之前在亞利桑那已經投資了650億，未來會投資1,000億，那我想一個公司，它在對外，對全球布……"],["羅委員明才：1,000億是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：1,000億美元。對外對國際的全球布局，有它公司經營的一些策略，不過我想……"],["羅委員明才：川普說要變成2,000億啊！美元喔，部長，你有沒有統計過，台積電是護國神山最重要的基礎，半導體以台積電為主周邊的企業，大概有多少家上市公司？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關所謂它周邊相關產業的生產鏈這部分有多少公司，我們沒有做過統計，但是……"],["羅委員明才：那你研究一下，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：我研究一下，但我想這個經濟部會研究。"],["羅委員明才：因為它是中心，當這個中心移開的時候，原本在臺灣的資本支出，就是投資在臺灣的部分就減少了很多很多。1,000億美元就是3兆，如果是2,000億美元的話，本來原本6兆是要投資臺灣的資本支出，現在加上周邊的企業，部長，連根拔起耶！那我問你，我請教你……"],["莊部長翠雲：根留臺灣依然是台積電的一個政策，它在臺灣的投資還是會持續進行。"],["羅委員明才：我請教部長，你有沒有算過，台積電一年對臺灣稅收的貢獻是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們可能……"],["羅委員明才：你剛剛講得很好，所有上市公司的總市值是71兆，我再問部長一句，那台積電的市值是多少？你剛剛講得很好，全部上市是71兆，那台積電的市值是多少？33兆啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再查一下。是。"],["羅委員明才：33兆啦，部長，所以當他離開的時候，影響是很大的。我在這邊苦口婆心的講是希望大家不要輕忽，因為很多我們銀行界的董事長、總經理「小可仔掣咧等」（有點害怕的等待著）。你想想看，這些錢如果不移到美國去，3兆加3兆共6兆，放在銀行裡面多溫暖啊！去年所有金融機構獲利的情況怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：去年金融機構的獲利算是不錯。"],["羅委員明才：是不錯？好，那我們看看今天所有的公股銀行，在內稽內控方面，部長，你對我們的內稽內控有沒有自信？因為都是公家的、都是公務體系嘛，應該不會出問題吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，內稽內控一直是各公股銀行非常重視的，財政部也一再在相關的會議裡面提醒大家不能鬆懈，對於內稽內控要強化，而且因應外界的情勢變化，應該要有更周全的一個機制。"],["羅委員明才：結果不要鬆懈，有沒有鬆懈？"],["莊部長翠雲：他們不會鬆懈。"],["羅委員明才：不會鬆懈？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["羅委員明才：最近所有公股銀行裡面有沒有被金管會處罰的？"],["莊部長翠雲：被金管會處罰的是有。"],["羅委員明才：哪一個？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們知道您提的大概應該就是臺灣銀行的兩位行員跟詐團的一些不法作法。"],["羅委員明才：部長，你剛剛說你不會鬆懈啊，不會鬆懈為什麼會被處罰？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會鬆懈，但是有些行員就是走相關的漏洞，這也就是我們還是要加強控管的部分。"],["羅委員明才：公家機關在民眾的心裡是一個堅而不破的信用之牆，錢如果存在公股的金融體系當中的臺灣銀行，我還擔心半夜被偷、被盜，裡面還有很多的詐騙集團，那不是打破了長年以來民眾對臺灣銀行的信心嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，沒有裡面有很多詐騙集團，臺灣銀行裡面沒有很多什麼詐騙集團。"],["羅委員明才：那為什麼會被處罰呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是這兩個行員的個人行為，已經提起公訴了，已經被起訴了，然後也免職了，裡面內部的主管同仁也給予行政的懲處，對於金管會的一個裁罰，我們也尊重，當然我們也把這個案例告知所有各銀行，告訴他們不可以有僥倖的心，法網恢恢，疏而不漏。"],["羅委員明才：部長，船過水無痕，昨天之錯，好像從來沒發生過。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有什麼船過水無痕。"],["羅委員明才：一句話也沒說，然後就過去了。"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啊！我剛剛說我們都有處理，都做了。"],["羅委員明才：部長，以前從來沒有公股銀行發生這種重大的金融事件欸！"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我想我們一定還是會加強跟各公股行庫宣導，我相信他們內部也都做了許多的措施。"],["羅委員明才：是因為管理階層薪水太少？或者是說管理不當？你看今天的所有公股銀行裡面，很多人都是一個職務，然後就誰、誰兼董事長，或兼代理總經理、代董，再來，還有誰兼董事長的，然後誰兼多少，還有董事長兼總經理的、總經理兼董事長，部長，你這個人事不重要嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：人事的部分當然是很重要。"],["羅委員明才：什麼時候會有新的一波人事派令？"],["莊部長翠雲：有一些下面的子公司或孫公司也許會由他們去兼。"],["羅委員明才：你的意思是說，臺灣中小企銀的總經理可以兼董事長，就一直兼下去嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會一直兼啊！當然會有……"],["羅委員明才：這個職務懸在那邊很久了。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有……"],["羅委員明才：你為什麼不充分的授權，各司其職，然後不要出現有漏洞的地方？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們的董總們都有他的權責。"],["羅委員明才：這個就很簡單……"],["莊部長翠雲：在公司治理上，他們是有他們的權責去做處理。"],["羅委員明才：這是很簡單的概念……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有所謂的授權問題。"],["羅委員明才：總不能說財政部部長又去兼賦稅署署長、兼關務署署長，那個職務考量就有其功能性嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然、當然。"],["羅委員明才：部長，什麼時候會有新一波的人事布達？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於新一波的人事布達，隨著臺企銀的董事長辭職以後，後續會有一波異動。"],["羅委員明才：後續什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：後續這個時間應該不會太久。"],["羅委員明才：會不會超過一年？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會超過一年。"],["羅委員明才：會不會超過一個月？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我想不會太久。"],["羅委員明才：是不會超過一個禮拜還是一個月？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我想您不久以後就會知道。"],["羅委員明才：好啦，我在這邊提醒的就是說要拴緊各個螺絲。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["羅委員明才：你輕鬆愉快沒出事，我們質詢也不用那麼辛苦啊，加油啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（李委員坤城代）：謝謝羅明才委員。接下來我們請賴惠員召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}