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最近如果再漲就已經是第五次了"},{"start":31.26,"end":52.999,"text":"如果再漲電價 對民生衝擊很大小吃店啦 一些商家 甚至可能連便當都要大幅漲價了然後對工商業發展衝擊也會很大一些企業啦 對不對 你以前從企業來嘛光是電價一上來 對很多企業影響就很大 真的要再上第五次的電價嗎"},{"start":54.841,"end":65.503,"text":"報告委員我想如果說我們用比較這個科學理性的方法來討論的話我們必須要知道說電價對它所佔的比率有多少"},{"start":67.099,"end":89.024,"text":"所以影響的這個變數有多少然後影響的金額有多少我想不至於因為每一個產業不會一樣那我們當然會把這樣的狀況因為我們這一次的電價審議委員裡面也有這個工業總會的代表也有商業總會的代表我想他們會充分的"},{"start":89.744,"end":108.518,"text":"反映給所有的這個委員就這個委員您所關注的這個命題我想他們會去討論但是經濟部只能夠這按照他審議委員會的這樣的一個結論我們來執行部長最可憐的是人民了一般的民眾"},{"start":110.677,"end":129.447,"text":"以後整個物價的那個一定是推升了嘛對不對人民就等於是受到很大的一個衝擊以後去買東西就變貴了嘛等於是薪水沒有漲可是呢薪水被這個物價上漲又吃掉被電價吃掉了然後影響到我們的工商業那另外你剛剛提了一個點所以我呼籲菩薩為因啦眾生為果"},{"start":134.623,"end":147.83,"text":"漲電價這個惡果一直在漲已經漲了40次第五次要再漲這個惡果應該去看那個原因在什麼地方啊你剛講說那經濟部經濟部當然有責任啊電價為什麼會漲就是你的能源政策跟你的能源結構影響了電價嘛"},{"start":150.874,"end":162.593,"text":"電價審慮委員會要審的時候你如果你每次都是用最便宜的核電不用最貴的這個綠電拼命買又出現一些必要買太貴有這兩個原因那當然就會漲啊"},{"start":163.792,"end":191.028,"text":"所以經濟部很有責任啊經濟部你要菩薩為因你要去知道那個因對不對你要回過頭去想說現在全世界人家為什麼都要重新用核電最穩定最便宜嘛那你只要做了這個事情就不用漲電價啦而且全世界都在做連美國AIT的處長都跟你講我們可以幫台灣那你不做這個惡果當然人民就會覺得經濟部沒有盡到責任或者賴清德總統沒有盡到責任這是第一個嘛第二個綠電來我們看一下"},{"start":192.894,"end":215.888,"text":"這個是電價審議委員會的一個成員啦也是我們商總的理事長許書寶開會的時候他應該就要在場啦他說什麼就是我剛剛講要去找那個原因出來嘛對不對你如果原因把它處理好就像生病一樣你如果是因為核電的問題是因為綠電問題你把它處理好那就不用漲電價搞不好還可以降喔你看許書寶怎麼說探究台電的這個成本結構啊許書寶說沒錢看出來啊台電今年大概虧損414億"},{"start":222.717,"end":243.995,"text":"主要來自於哪裡 加大對綠能的採購 增加了因為綠電的問題 至少都增加了300億的虧損解決綠電的問題啊 綠電我已經提了好幾次啊你買的太貴這是一個原因 你想辦法把價格降下來更重要你現在馬上在做 你現在已經在賣RE30嘛 對不對"},{"start":245.868,"end":250.629,"text":"30你現在綠電開始賣啊加快速度現在不是漲電價你只要加快賣綠電的這個速度你是5、6塊買的你現在都是用髒電30塊賣出去當然虧損300億、400億就出來了你趕快把綠電如期賣出去讓我們的企業可以買到綠電"},{"start":262.791,"end":286.7,"text":"這個台電不要虧損就不要漲電價三年啊報告委員我想這個需求跟供應才是正相關我想價格是決定於需求跟供應之間我們當然希望供應這個R1-30但是如果需求沒有那麼大我還是沒有辦法供應給它因為這個電它有需要才會來跟我們購買今天上次不就開口說需要110度的這個地電嗎"},{"start":291.723,"end":297.066,"text":"現在很多企業都來請你找出那個100億度的客戶給你你找他來給我啊我一定賣給他啊問題是這個100億度的這個是假的命題假命題我們不用討論假命題就是很多企業確實需要綠電嘛"},{"start":321.123,"end":324.812,"text":"麻煩委員直接告訴我我一定拿去給他"},{"start":325.835,"end":353.268,"text":"所以你要加速嘛這也是你的責任當然當然你現在目前我統計你的每年買300億度的綠電進來你只賣出去10%當然太少啊你現在要賣就要趕快我的意思就是你應該是加快賣綠電的速度這個金額你只要收入增加沒有時間過了來只要收入增加只要收入增加當然就不要漲這個人民的電費嘛對不對等一下我問一下這是不是很大投資台電是不是要虧另外一個洞出來了看看"},{"start":354.431,"end":379.49,"text":"我們最近啊 跟美國阿拉斯加天然氣開發公司簽約我看部長你也在場嘛 對不對上面也有你嘛是說要合作啊 不只買他們的天然氣合作要建造一條價值440億美金的出油管道476是多少錢台電要出多少錢"},{"start":383.241,"end":402.304,"text":"我們還沒有決定 我們是意向書 意向書如果用440億的一半 220億美金就是6600億喔台電 台當然是意向書 可是我現在提醒台電不要挖一個大黑洞 你看台電能用少一點 少一千億 綠電600億你這個基本假設又是不存在的"},{"start":412.647,"end":424.88,"text":"我們簽意向書不是只有我買他50分的不可能嘛這個是美國的東西他要賣給日本賣給台灣要賣給韓國甚至賣到菲律賓我怎麼可能占50%我現在不是說賣天然氣天然氣的那個天然氣的輸油管道"},{"start":431.258,"end":451.556,"text":"這一條價值要建造要440億美金我現在在提醒你我的訊息440億是天然氣而不是這個油管所以您的這個資訊是不是要再correct一下這是你們的會長親你們政府的媒體自由時報下來的"},{"start":455.259,"end":472.435,"text":"那不管是輸油管或是你剛說的這個要去挖天然氣我們要投資4400億的多少錢我現在只是提醒啦投資當然是可以的可是這個金額看起來很嚇人喔如果是像這個440億裡面兩邊要合作對不對你如果要一半的話220億的美金就是六千六百億喔"},{"start":475.342,"end":503.42,"text":"我們一年的總預算才三兆欸我們台積電已經去投資了1000億美金你那個假設是過度的啦不可能的事啦所以差不多多少不可能50萬我們現在要我們要投資多少也是人家對方同意啊而且這裡面牽扯到其他的鄰國他們也都需要所以不是說你要50%部長那你意向說跟人家簽了裡面不管是你剛剛在講的挖天然氣或者是這個輸油管"},{"start":503.88,"end":514.291,"text":"你到底要出多少錢 你都沒有一個沒有一個比較細膩算過沒有財務的算過你就簽了這個報告委員這一個案子是2031年以後才會發生的"},{"start":516.708,"end":536.884,"text":"你簽個意向書你都要簽之前都沒有先做才有表示我們這個是有興趣我們可以支持他這個遊景去開發這個是我們現在的意向嘛至於投資多少錢不是契約這個是意向書所以我跟委員報告就是契約跟意向書是不一樣的"},{"start":537.404,"end":566.622,"text":"現在意向書先簽嘛對不對可是兩邊要進一步的談然後要先做參與安顧嘛你剛剛這個你的圖片拍得非常好啊上面寫投資意向書嘛不是寫投資契約書嘛那你都已經簽了意向書上面沒有金額上面沒有金額我跟委員報告就是沒有金額現在就是公佈出來美國在講說光是這個輸油管道就要440億啊那你講的又是另外的錢我現在是在提醒啦導出當然可以不過金額都很大好不好"},{"start":567.082,"end":570.749,"text":"不要又挖了一個大洞不要挖了一個大洞你又賠錢這個是貿易條件嘛我們你說我買的話還是大萬價"},{"start":578.968,"end":601.455,"text":"我們買的是大案價你現在簽了意向書裡面有牽扯到可能要投資多少錢你們這部份應該是有評估沒有啦那沒有的話至少至少比較進一步的時候一定要做財務評估報告委員我們不方便在這裡跟你報告這些鉅細靡遺的事情啦我真的很抱歉這裡面牽扯到什麼整理人道事件出去怎麼當然會你如果要知道你要知道那麼你拒絕我就跟你報告"},{"start":602.355,"end":619.247,"text":"好不好來報告啦這個應該是公開的要讓全民知道啦好不好我們希望這個投資是賺錢的不要投資又賠錢發生以後一定會報告如果有進度隨時報告好不好不過要提醒的是不要進去又花了很多錢然後到時候要找人給錢給他一定要慎重好不好投資是要賺錢的要注意好不好好 大家好 來 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":171,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時37分）請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，過去3年電價已經漲了4次，最近如果再漲，就是第5次了。如果再漲電價，對民生衝擊很大，包括小吃店、一些商家，甚至可能連便當都要大幅漲價了。對於工商業發展衝擊也會很大，包括一些企業，對不對？你從企業來，光是電價一上來，對很多企業影響就很大，所以真的要再漲第5次的電價嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果我們用比較科學、理性的方法來討論的話，我們必須要知道電價對它所占的比率有多少，所以影響的變數有多少、影響的金額有多少，我想不至於……因為每一個產業不會一樣，我們當然會把這樣的狀況……因為這次的電價審議委員裡面有工業總會的代表，也有產業總會的代表，我想他們會充分地反映給所有的委員，就委員您所關注的命題，我想他們會去討論，但是經濟部只能夠按照審議委員會的結論來執行。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，最可憐的是人民、一般的民眾，以後整個物價一定是推升的，對不對？人民就等於受到很大的衝擊，尤其買東西就變貴了，等於是薪水沒有漲，可是薪水被物價上漲又吃掉、被電價吃掉了，也影響到我們的工商業。另外，你剛剛提到了一個點，所謂菩薩畏因，眾生畏果，漲電價這個惡果一直在漲，已經漲了4次，第5次要再漲這個惡果，應該去看那個原因在什麼地方。你剛剛講到經濟部，經濟部當然有責任，電價為什麼會漲？就是你的能源政策跟能源結構影響了電價。電價審議委員會在審的時候，每次最便宜的核電都不用，最貴的綠電拚命買，又出現一些弊案，買太貴，有這兩個原因，當然就會漲啊！所以經濟部很有責任，經濟部要想到菩薩畏因，要知道那個因，對不對？你要回過頭去想現在全世界人家為什麼都要重新用核電，最穩定、最便宜嘛！那你只要做了這個事情就不用漲電價啦！而且全世界都在做，連美國AIT的處長都跟你講，我們可以幫臺灣，那你不做，這個惡果當然人民就會覺得經濟部沒有盡到責任，或者賴清德總統沒有盡到責任，這是第一個嘛！","第二個，綠電，來，我們看一下，這個是電價審議委員會的一個成員，也是我們商總的理事長許舒博，開會的時候他應該就要在場，他說什麼？就是我剛剛講的，要去找那個原因出來嘛！對不對？你說原因把它處理好，就像生病一樣，如果是因為核電的問題、是因為綠電問題，你把它處理好，那就不用漲電價，搞不好還可以降喔！你看許舒博怎麼說？探究台電的成本結構，許舒博說就目前看起來的資料，台電今年大概虧損414億，主要來自於哪裡？加大對綠能的採購，增加了，因為綠電的問題，至少都增加了300億的虧損。所以部長，解決綠電的問題啊！綠電我已經提了好幾次啊！你買得太貴就是一個原因，你想辦法把價格降下來。更重要你現在馬上在做，你現在已經在賣RE30嘛！對不對？RE30你現在綠電開始賣啊，加快速度，現在不是漲電價，你只要加快賣綠電的速度，你是5、6塊買的，你現在都用髒電3、4塊賣出去，當然虧損300億、400億就出來了啊，你趕快把綠電如期賣出去，讓我們的企業可以買到綠電，台電不要虧損就不要漲電價，三贏啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想需求跟供應才是正相關啦！我想價格是決定於需求跟供應之間，我們當然希望供應RE30，但是如果需求沒有那麼大，我還是沒有辦法供應給它，因為它有需要這個電才會來跟我們購買。"],["張委員啓楷：本席上次不就開口說需要100億度的綠電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對不起，委員……"],["張委員啓楷：對不對？很多企業都來陳情說現在買不到。"],["郭部長智輝：請你找出100億度的客戶給我。"],["張委員啓楷：那些人需要綠電嘛！它回來也需要綠電嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對，你找它來給我啊！我一定賣給它啊！"],["張委員啓楷：很多企業都來陳情，都需要綠電嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：但是問題是這個100億度是假的命題……"],["張委員啓楷：不過至少它需要綠電。"],["郭部長智輝：我們不用討論假命題……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啦，部長，這是重點，就是很多企業確實需要綠電嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定會……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你要加快……"],["郭部長智輝：如果今天有綠電的需求而買不到我的綠電，麻煩委員直接告訴我，我一定拿去給它。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你要加速嘛！這也是你的責任。"],["郭部長智輝：當然、當然。"],["張委員啓楷：目前我統計你每年買300億度的綠電進來，你只賣出去10%，當然太少啊，你現在要賣就要趕快，我的意思就是你應該是加快賣綠電的速度，這個金額……你只要收入增加……"],["郭部長智輝：這個我是不是讓台電董事長跟你報告一下？"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，時間過了，來，只要收入增加，當然就不要漲人民的電費嘛！對不對？第二個，我問一下，這是不是一個很大的投資？台電是不是要挖另外一個洞出來了？看一下，我們最近跟美國阿拉斯加天然氣開發公司簽約，我看部長你在場嘛！對不對？照片上面有你嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：說要合作啊，不只買他們的天然氣，合作要建造一條價值440億美金的輸油管管道，440億是多少錢？台電要出多少錢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啦，台電要出多少錢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們還沒有決定，我們是意向書。"],["張委員啓楷：意向書。"],["郭部長智輝：要投資多少要以後再算。"],["張委員啓楷：如果用440億的一半，220億美金就是6,600億喔，台電……"],["郭部長智輝：你想要買50%……"],["張委員啓楷：當然意向書，可是我現在提醒，台電挖了一個大黑洞……"],["郭部長智輝：不可能。"],["張委員啓楷：你看核電沒用，一年少1,000億……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你這個基本假設……"],["張委員啓楷：綠電六百多億，這邊是……"],["郭部長智輝：這個基本假設又是不存在的。"],["張委員啓楷：這個意向書了，不是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們簽意向書不是只有我買它50%，不可能嘛！這個是美國的東西，它要賣給日本、賣給臺灣，要賣給韓國，甚至賣到菲律賓，我怎麼可能占50%啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我現在不是說賣天然氣啦！部長，天然氣的輸油管道，建造這一條要440億美金，我現在在提醒你……"],["郭部長智輝：不是啦，報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我在提醒你……"],["郭部長智輝：我的訊息，440億是挖天然氣而不是這個油管，所以您的資訊是不是要再correct一下？"],["張委員啓楷：這是非常親你們政府的媒體──自由時報寫的耶！自由時報的新聞有問題是不是？好，不管是輸油管或者你剛剛說的要去挖天然氣，我們要投資4,400億的多少錢？我現在只是提醒啦，投資當然是可以的，可是金額看起來很嚇人喔，如果是像這個440億裡面兩邊要合作對不對？如果一半就要220億的美金，就是6,600億喔！我們一年的總預算才3兆，我們台積電……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你那個假設……"],["張委員啓楷：台積電已經去投資了1,000億美金……"],["郭部長智輝：你那個假設是過度的啦，不可能的事情啦！"],["張委員啓楷：所以差不多多少？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能50%。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你現在意向……"],["郭部長智輝：我們要投資多少也是要對方同意啊，而且這裡面牽扯到其他的鄰國，他們也都需要，所以不是說你要50%它就可以同意……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，那你意向書跟人家簽了裡面，不管是你剛剛在講的挖天然氣或者是輸油管，你到底要出多少錢？你都沒有一個比較細膩算過、沒有財務的算過就簽了啊？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一個案子是2030年以後才會發生的。"],["張委員啓楷：你簽個意向書，要簽之前都沒有先做財務評估嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：表示我們對這個是有興趣，我們可以支持它這個油井去開發，這個是我們現在的意向嘛！至於投資多少錢，不是契約，這個是意向書，所以我跟委員報告，就是契約跟意向書是不一樣的。"],["張委員啓楷：現在意向書先簽嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是先簽意向書。"],["張委員啓楷：可是兩邊要進一步地談，然後要先做財務評估嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對啊！你看看這個，你的圖片拍得非常好啊，上面寫投資意向書嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是寫投資契約書嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：你在上面嘛！那你都已經簽了意向書，當然有一定的進度嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：上面沒有金額，我跟委員報告，就是沒有金額。"],["張委員啓楷：現在就是公布出來，美國在講說光是輸油管管道就要440億，那你講的又是另外的錢，我現在是在提醒，投資當然可以，不過金額都很大，好不好？不要又挖了一個大洞，不要挖了大洞以後賠錢，台電賠錢又要漲我們電價，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，這個是貿易條件嘛！你說我為什麼要付這些錢？我買的話還是到岸價啊！我們買的是到岸價。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你現在簽了意向書，裡面有牽扯到可能要投資多少錢，你們經濟部已經開始有評估……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦！這個我們不方便……"],["張委員啓楷：那沒有的話，至少進一步的時候一定要做財務評估。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們不方便在這裡跟你報告這些巨細靡遺的事情啦，這個很抱歉，這裡面牽扯到……"],["張委員啓楷：這是我們人民的納稅錢，出去怎麼……"],["郭部長智輝：當然會，你如果要知道，麻煩你具結，我就跟你報告，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：不只來報告啦，這個應該是公開的，要讓全民知道，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：不是啦！還沒有發生……"],["張委員啓楷：我們希望這個投資是賺錢的，不要投資又賠錢。"],["郭部長智輝：發生以後一定會報告，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：好，如果有進度隨時報告，不過我要提醒的是不要進去又花了很多錢……"],["主席：未來有進度再讓……"],["張委員啓楷：到時候又漲人民的電價，一定要慎重，好不好？投資是要賺錢的，要注意，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝張啓楷委員。","我們現在請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","陳培瑜","黃國昌","葉元之","林德福","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「電業法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員賴士葆等 17 人擬具\n「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員林岱樺等18人擬具「電業法第六條條文修\n正草案」案；四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員\n邱議瑩等16人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案；六、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「電業法\n部分條文修正草案」案；七、本院委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}