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甚至只有零點幾"},{"start":124.68,"end":150.761,"text":"這政府實在是遇到疫情疫情之後又國際地緣衝突所以使得國際之間的物價非常的不穩定那經濟的成長當時預估可能會有困難所以才會有這一些舉動今年如果照去年的這個預算的實收數高於預算數中央政府的部分中央部分大概是3700多億吧那3700多億"},{"start":154.485,"end":169.932,"text":"可是去年的預算裡面光是要舉借的金額是多少?1571億那一部分後來是不是就沒有舉借,有錢的就不用舉借了啊對,不僅沒有舉借而且多還了1500多億這兩個加起來就3000多億那你3700億填補這個窟窿"},{"start":177.523,"end":204.972,"text":"沒有借在線上多還的就剩下幾百億而已啊所以如果你因為預算上面的時收數高於預算數三千億你就要來編特你就規定說要來發現金的話那這不是變成政府必須要舉借來發現金嗎的確會有這個問題以前我們的賴昭偉我最佩服的是他非常堅持財政紀律啦"},{"start":206.377,"end":213.331,"text":"哪有人除非情況非不得已不然的話一個政府怎麼會去借錢要來發現金給國民呢而且這個發現金給國民"},{"start":219.01,"end":240.401,"text":"這個預算的理想是要調劑營需要縮短財富差距的倍數所以如果要照顧民眾的話要照顧中低收入戶最優先照顧弱勢最優先照顧需要照顧人最優先你一普發會有一個狀況"},{"start":242.472,"end":270.901,"text":"非常有錢的人張忠謀是我們的國民他這麼有錢他需要你這一萬塊嗎那立法委員的薪水一個月都二十幾萬當然我們支出也很多但是有需要這一萬塊嗎就變成說本來預算的另外一個目的希望能夠調劑營需對中央地方還有對國民之間的財富差距的縮小"},{"start":272.214,"end":288.07,"text":"變成這個普發也沒有辦法達到這個功效是不是有這樣的狀況啊市長你回答一下嘛市長所以我一直認為說這裡面大有問題啊為什麼要這樣做呢這是我私人個人的猜測啦因為"},{"start":291.673,"end":306.844,"text":"政府要撥補台電的一千億砍掉啦預算碼要刪掉不給他過啊所以四月電價眼看就要漲價啦國人都知道漲價是因為政府錢準備要撥補台電你不給他撥補嘛"},{"start":309.44,"end":336.501,"text":"所以電價會漲怕人家罵現在趕快推出說我要發現金所以就有人說過嘛你何必這樣子呢你那一千億政府準備的錢你給台電台電不用漲這個民生電價那你就不用擔心還不用後面要來發錢來補是一萬塊錢比較重要呢還是電價漲的時候因為電價漲價所引動的生產成本各式各樣的成本漲價或低調"},{"start":339.252,"end":359.869,"text":"所以說為了要達到政治的目的做政治的攻防去做錯誤的事情繞了一圈然後再拿錯誤的事情要來填補這是我私人的看法而且這樣做違憲因為立法院沒有預算的提案權我們是預算的審議權"},{"start":361.77,"end":381.394,"text":"你的預算提來立法院 我們審議覺得有不適當的地方 適當的刪減而不是像這樣子啦 六千億 刪減或凍結要六千億國家的總預算才三億 三兆一千萬 三兆一千億 弄了六千億 更何況連監察院96%"},{"start":384.655,"end":413.326,"text":"這個行政費 事務費都把我拿掉我那天公祭遇到李鴻鈞啊以前我們在地方 我們是朋友嘛他現在當副院長他跟我抱怨說你們立法院亂搞讓我們台電 電費已經兩個月付不出來我來講 兄弟 蔡華瓊做不喜歡亂搞是要刪除的人給你機關預算然後把你的事務費全部都拿掉你什麼事情都不能做嘛"},{"start":414.975,"end":443.238,"text":"連電梯都不能開啊紙也不能用現在立法委員要到如果要去做財產申報以前是電腦打開大家直接對就可以了資料取得很方便現在要到立法院去他沒有要用書面來所以假設每一個立法委員在銀行的戶頭都要去銀行請資料用紙本大家來對本來三分鐘可以處理的事情現在三天處理不完啊"},{"start":445.297,"end":465.011,"text":"這次就是現狀 因為亂刪減預算的結果所以現在面臨一個大罷免的風潮結果真正富裕的時候 如果好好大家坐下來商量這件事情那就是一個補考的機會 把它弄回來正常 可以討論"},{"start":466.536,"end":485.333,"text":"一樣啊 財化法也一樣啊你們就還沒有跟把那個公事弄好地方也沒有弄好 你現在公事就搶錢那也不來講說事務增加多少將惡搞的結果要一團亂所以難怪會有人推測說是故意要讓中華民國癱瘓真的這種話我在民間都聽到了那這個"},{"start":492.455,"end":519.694,"text":"大家對立法院有意見 民眾對立法委員有意見不是因為選出來之後馬上翻臉啦是你自己做的事情是不是好好的想一下有哪一些事情做得真的讓人家不滿意那大家坐下來把這個結怎麼好好的解開解開自然就沒罷免了嘛那時候我們自己現在在聊啊如果總預算的刪減是民眾不滿的原因"},{"start":520.885,"end":549.336,"text":"那複製的時候好好來談再花點時間把這個總預算處理好適當的刪減 大家給你鼓掌惡意的亂刪 全部這樣子亂砍結果他就不要啊連讓院長來立法院報告都不要啊就用一天 然後就把他表決通過了啊才化法也一樣啊你這個越綁越緊就是硬要火車對撞嘛"},{"start":551.014,"end":575.503,"text":"所以我在這個地方誠懇的呼籲過去這個東西是有制度的我們是有財政紀律的你的預算的處理應該像過去的方法先由行政院考量整個社會的狀況認為有必要的話提一個特別條例來到立法院經立法院對特別條例審查的結果"},{"start":576.483,"end":583.131,"text":"再根據這個結果來編列預算到本院來審議通過之後再來處理這樣才是正辦 對不對"},{"start":585.013,"end":612.001,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們目前的做法就是說我們如果稅收如果實證數超過預算數的話我們是先還債,那麼減少舉債如果多的,那麼就是移到稅金剩餘那稅金剩餘的運用就要看我們的施政優先順序比如說像民生或者是照顧弱勢或者是國防等等這些由行政部門做通盤的考量"},{"start":612.461,"end":620.895,"text":"是啦 這個才是正辦啦加油要堅持啦對的事情要堅持不要被帶到錯的方向去啦謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝吳秉瑞委員來 我們接下來賴仕寶 賴昭緯"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":287,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時49分）主席，麻煩請陳主計長跟阮次長。"],["主席：請陳主計長、阮次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：兩位好。我在這個地方有十幾年的經驗，所以我對於普發現金或是類似現金的消費券，大概有遇到過幾次，第一次是馬政府時代；第二次是蔡政府時代，蔡政府時代是發三倍券、五倍券，再加上6,000塊現金，這一些都有一個共同的特徵，都是行政院認為應該要這樣做，所以他提了一個特別條例到立法院審議，立法院通過之後，再根據這個特別條例編預算，然後再來實施。也就是說，立法院依照憲法是審查預算，不能做預算的提案，如果你把預算的提案放在法律的硬性規定，那行政權存在的兩大支柱：一個預算、一個人事，就被你立法機關拿走了。像我在立法院這一屆進來宣誓的時候，我們誓詞上面是寫要恪遵憲法，但是現在好像都不把憲法當作一回事，反正要達到政治目的比較重要，我覺得正常的程序應該是這樣才對吧！如果現在說不要，我要給你訂在法律裡面，立法院高興要給你怎麼用就給你怎麼用，沒有經過詳細的評估嘛！在馬政府的時代，那個時候經濟遇到重挫，經濟成長率非常低，甚至只有零點幾，然後在蔡政府時代是遇到疫情，在疫情之後又有地緣衝突，使得國際之間的物價非常地不穩定，經濟的成長在當時預估可能會有困難，所以才會有這一些舉動。如果照去年預算的實收數高於預算數，中央政府的部分大概是三千七百多億，可是在去年的預算裡面光是要舉借的金額是多少？"],["阮次長清華：1,571億。"],["吳委員秉叡：那一部分後來是不是就沒有舉借？因為有錢了，就不用舉借了！"],["阮次長清華：對，不僅沒有舉借，而且多還了一千五百多億。"],["吳委員秉叡：這兩個加起來就……"],["阮次長清華：三千多億。"],["吳委員秉叡：三千多億？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：那你3,700億填補這個窟窿，沒有借，再加上多還的，就剩下幾百億而已啊！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以如果你因為預算上面的實收數高於預算數3,000億，你就規定要來發現金的話，那這不是變成政府必須要舉借來發現金嗎？"],["阮次長清華：的確會有這個問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：以前對於我們的賴召委，我最佩服的就是他非常堅持財政紀律，除非情況不得已，不然政府怎麼會去借錢要來發現金給國民呢？而且發現金給國民照這個預算的理想是要調劑盈需，就是要縮短財富差距的倍數，所以如果要照顧民眾的話，要以照顧中低收入戶為最優先，以照顧弱勢為最優先，以照顧需要照顧的人為最優先。如果你普發的話，就會有一個狀況，非常有錢的人像張忠謀是我們的國民，他這麼有錢，他需要你這1萬塊嗎？那立法委員的薪水1個月都二十幾萬，當然我們的支出也很多，但是有需要這1萬塊嗎？就變成說本來預算的另外一個目的是希望調劑盈需，讓中央、地方還有國民之間財富的差距縮小，可是如果普發的話，也沒有辦法達到這個功效，是不是會有這樣的狀況？次長，你回答一下嘛！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！所以我一直認為這裡面大有問題。為什麼要這樣做呢？這是我個人的猜測，因為政府要撥補台電的1,000億被砍掉了，把人家的預算刪掉、不給它過啊！所以眼看在4月電價就要漲價了，國人都知道漲價的原因，就是因為政府把錢準備好了要撥補台電，可是你不給它撥補嘛！所以電價會漲，因為怕人家罵，所以現在趕快推出說要發現金。就有人說過：你何必這樣子呢？那1,000億是政府準備的錢，你給台電，台電就不用漲民生電價，那你就不用擔心，也不用後面還要發錢來補。是1萬塊錢比較重要呢？還是在電價漲了之後，因為電價漲價所引動的生產成本、各式各樣的成本漲價會抵掉？所以這就是為了要達到政治的目的，做政治的攻防，去做了錯誤的事情，繞了一圈，然後再拿錯誤的事情要來填補啊！這是我私人的看法。","而且這樣做是違憲，因為立法院沒有預算的提案權，我們只有預算的審議權，你的預算提來立法院，我們審議時覺得有不適當的地方就做適當的刪減，而不是像這樣子要刪減、凍結6,000億，國家的總預算才3兆1,000億，就弄掉6,000億，更何況把監察院96%的行政費、事務費都拿掉了。我那一天參加公祭的時候遇到李鴻鈞，以前我們在地方的時候是朋友，他現在當副院長，他跟我complain說你們立法院亂搞，讓他們電費已經2個月付不出來。我跟他說：兄弟，要弄清楚，不是我們亂搞，是要刪除的人針對你機關的預算，然後把你的事務費全部都拿掉，讓你什麼事情都不能做，連電梯都不能開，紙也不能用。現在立法委員如果要去做財產申報，以前是電腦打開大家直接對就可以了，資料取得很方便，現在沒有，要送書面來，假設每一個立法委員在銀行的戶頭都要去銀行申請資料，大家用紙本來對，本來3分鐘可以處理好的事情，現在3天都處理不完，這就是現狀啊！就是因為亂刪減預算的結果，所以現在面臨一個大罷免的風潮嘛！在審查覆議案的時候，如果大家好好坐下來商量這件事情，那就是一個補考的機會，把它回復到正常，可以討論。財劃法也一樣啊！你們就還沒有把那個公式弄好，地方也沒有弄好，你現在光是搶錢，也不來講說他們的事務增加多少，這樣惡搞的結果就是一團亂，所以難怪會有人推測說是故意要讓中華民國癱瘓，我在民間真的都聽到這種話了。","大家對立法院有意見，民眾對立法委員有意見，不是選出來之後馬上翻臉，反而你對自己做的事情是不是要好好的想一下，有哪一些事情做得真的讓人家不滿意？那大家坐下來看怎麼好好的把這個結解開，在解開之後自然就沒罷免了嘛！那時候我們私底下也在聊，如果總預算的刪減是民眾不滿的原因，因為惡意的亂刪，全部這樣子亂砍，那就在覆議的時候好好來談，再花一點時間把總預算處理好，適當的刪減，大家就會給你鼓掌。結果他也不要啊！連讓院長來立法院報告都不要啊！只用1天就把這個案子表決通過了。財劃法也是一樣，你這個越綁越緊，就是硬要火車對撞嘛！","所以我在這個地方誠懇地呼籲，過去這個東西是有制度的，我們是有財政紀律的，你對預算的處理應該用過去的方法，先由行政院考量整個社會的狀況，認為有必要的話，就提一個特別條例送來立法院，經立法院對特別條例審查的結果，再根據這個結果來編列預算，送本院審議，在通過之後再來處理，這樣才是正辦，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：是，我跟委員報告，我們目前的作法就是，如果實徵數超過預算數的話，我們是先還債，減少舉債，如果還有多的，那麼就是移到歲計賸餘，那歲計賸餘的運用就要看我們的施政優先順序，比如說像民生、照顧弱勢或者是國防等等，由行政部門做通盤的考量。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，這個才是正辦，加油，要堅持啊！對的事情要堅持，不要被帶到錯的方向去了，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員德福代）：好，謝謝吳秉叡委員。","我們接下來請賴士葆賴召委。"],["柯委員建銘：花錢買票。"],["主席：什麼買票？"],["柯委員建銘：因為大罷免所以要買票。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等26人、委員林德福等20人、委員賴士葆等20人分別擬具「預\n算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1143101_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}