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老闆 老闆補充我們今天要說做我們透明化的問題的實際登錄啦在本學要跟你談到的就是說之前我們在內政這個委員會也有討論過也有很多官司都反對這個的做法"},{"start":29.944,"end":44.49,"text":"本席要向您在此探討的是,到目前為止,是否有很多官司反對透明化的實際登錄的做法?是否保證,您來回答一下?"},{"start":46.331,"end":52.376,"text":"我們在跟地方政府溝通的過程當中其實不在於地方政府執行的程度他們也願意配合因為租賃市場越透明的話對房客或者對於房東本身啊能夠產生比較好的措施要穩健來推動如果你一方面要求所有的都要做實價登錄的話"},{"start":71.73,"end":81.017,"text":"那房東他可能不想租屋了,整個租屋市場在萎縮的話,不利於房客,但是如果你,然後如果你說以這個房東為主,然後你稅也可以減免,然後也可以不用登錄的話,他這樣子對於房客來講的話又不公平"},{"start":91.244,"end":96.128,"text":"所以怎麼樣讓慢慢的可以不要影響到第一個個資保護還有在市場的推動上面能夠比較這個健康的話我們已經有推出一些措施譬如說剛剛很多人提到的公益房東或者是社會住宅或者是我們用這個去這個識別化的狀況先公佈72.7萬戶我們能夠掌握到的這個租金補貼的方向提供給大家參考也就是說如果有租客看到這些數目的話他會覺得說"},{"start":120.768,"end":126.31,"text":"既然他今天要去租房子,不要讓人家騙了然後對房東來講的話,他也不要覺得說你的價格與眾不同,太高了但是我要跟大家報告,我們大概不會去處理那個頂級的譬如說今天有人要去租地寶,我們可能不會去處理那個所以我們現在出來的不可能是白的"},{"start":144.395,"end":148.257,"text":"因為有時候你的租金的實價登錄時也像剛才我們補充說的那已經上升到最高的最高的租金的行情喔如果破亂了會越去越遠啦所以在這補充我是怎麼說那麼多時間要給你解釋說因為我覺得這需要我們台灣的百姓所了解"},{"start":172.529,"end":173.83,"text":"要做人也好,要人做也好,要了解清楚,不然有的會怕想說自己長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期、長期"},{"start":192.176,"end":195.619,"text":"我們也能夠做好,能夠撐快金錢的人去做事的人,能夠讓他們的負擔更輕,所以保長你剛才的解說,我覺得重點不在這裡,甚至你還有要補充什麼來,保長"},{"start":212.073,"end":239.08,"text":"感謝委員我相信這個租賃市場的透明化要慢慢去引導引導的部分就是說要租客本身或者是房屋的這個房東他自己本身覺得朝著這個方向是好的雖然我們已經制定很多法案包括包租代管業者不動產經濟業者那目前也有人慢慢朝這方面推動那目前我們嘗試著再跟這些包租代管業者就是說能夠互相互動更好能夠保障"},{"start":239.56,"end":251.311,"text":"房客跟保障這個房東自己本身兩方面都有得利譬如說剛有委員在講說這個房屋的這個租金過低那房東不願意進入那這個也是我們擔心的尤其是雙北是一個比較大的這個狀況大家都集中到雙北的時候呢"},{"start":256.095,"end":273.643,"text":"展現在我們租賃市場透明化上面呢就會比其他的這個縣市來的比較少那就表示說這個部分呢我們還可以透過包括社會住宅或是包括包租貸管業者或是包括公益出租人或是包括資訊透明的方向要四線一起推動才比較好你現在"},{"start":274.884,"end":288.012,"text":"猛然喔一顆鼓就說我現在要做什麼事情反而造成這個擾動反而對於租屋本身尤其是對於尋找年輕的青年的這個租客本身會有比較大的衝擊啦這個是我們比較擔心的"},{"start":291.334,"end":295.956,"text":"普通在這個地方 我覺得困難的問題都在這裡跟本市長說 你也想要做得好 做努力的我們要透明化一個法律是我們也能讓北市的生活更好所以你應該覺得很用心的去做這個但是在補助的時候 剛才本市長說的 不能做到毀了"},{"start":320.746,"end":323.008,"text":"做到老公欠老女,又出水,沒工機,又棄機,這樣就很害了本來跟你說這是最要緊的,沒說實在,現在的年輕人也很煩惱"},{"start":337.62,"end":344.202,"text":"主一直去,他也怕租金一直去,這是最重要的一部分啦我們補充,這個要去,再上市,去關心一下,去注意一下,後面來可以更好,在這裡本身也要跟你談到,我們這個租金裡面都有限量"},{"start":362.428,"end":369.874,"text":"電子嘛,在正當的出國的時候,我們就是說出租不可以啦,做的人的電子,可以出台電的收銷的錢嘛,但是,那個時候,他會發嘛,最基本的開始,會發三萬到三十萬嘛,但是我覺得我這個時候,會發五萬到五十萬,跟我"},{"start":389.688,"end":396.452,"text":"覺得聽起來,跟你們去檢舉,檢舉做主的人,感覺出去檢舉啦我覺得好玩的就是,你們的政策,未來就是最擔心的說,電子營照這樣站,人萬一,出水啦,在家裡面的時候,也海龍龍耶"},{"start":414.042,"end":418.405,"text":"普通,這種會有時候說他這裡不要去,去這裡,我們一個政策的時候,可以讓他發生,就安心啦,不然有時候這個年輕人會煩惱啦,說今天你們收的,今天你們收集的,跟對我們的租金,不知道有應有無啦,他說我們有時候,"},{"start":439.637,"end":443.939,"text":"我們這個租金補貼這個今年3百億我們也聽到補償所說的現在申請的已經63萬幾乎了啦第2期已經9千3百幾乎申請通過有8千133乎啦不然未來"},{"start":466.431,"end":468.574,"text":"我們的租金會補貼的時候,我們沒有辦法"},{"start":471.445,"end":474.287,"text":"一檔的補貼 譬如說補貼到10月 譬如說補貼到10月剩下的那一兩個月 要花多少錢 怎樣去想法啦所以說補貼 本身是覺得說我們的財務財務啦 看財務啦在地方的時候 我們這個租金補貼 也是很要緊的啦像高利貸"},{"start":498.803,"end":500.045,"text":"八千一百三十三戶,一戶兩個就好,就應用到萬樂的了所以保證,這個租金補貼,是對需要的人"},{"start":514.462,"end":516.804,"text":"非常的煩惱說 跟我今年未來 我的資金要怎樣 要去帶酒 要去帶鐵嗎來 補充 這個問題你回答一下謝謝 王議員的關心啦 沒錯啦 因為今年的三百億裡面因為我們是要行政院有一個公務預算撥補兩百億啦"},{"start":535.864,"end":543.927,"text":"那現在當然就是卡在立法院那那個嘉義市現在的這個合訂啦到3月20的時候是合訂是8000多戶8137戶那撥款的金額是7000多萬但是沒有錯有可能到10月或11月的時候呢這個租金就用盡了啦對 因為本身我們有要跟你們有要探討這個問題可能沒辦法 沒辦法撥得出來啦"},{"start":560.333,"end":565.037,"text":"因為我們前述不夠因為我們原先預估的是三百億嘛現在兩百億掉在柳煥英裡面所以我本身想跟你說這看要如何邀請他去解決這個問題"},{"start":576.528,"end":579.512,"text":"當時要怎麼處理,有些人覺得他做法不是這樣,我覺得這個問題對北省的租金來說非常大"},{"start":593.867,"end":603.934,"text":"對 尤其是很多年輕人 他們很大 他們的租金打折啦打折 打成八折或是打成九折那現在我們要跟你說的就是 你的申請到現在 你沒有到 到現在還可以申請喔"},{"start":611.278,"end":613.039,"text":"因為你們的目標是75萬戶,現在63萬戶,你們現在說錢沒夠喔現在這是一個問題喔,保證,你要上市去算好喔本身要跟你說一下,租用住宅,你們在這裡面有規定"},{"start":634.289,"end":639.794,"text":"我們會覺得四十平方公尺給台灣人叫做十二倍啦在這個年代 我覺得你們要去評估 再去看一下有時候他的故鄉 阿嬤大了 還有老闆出了有時候又退出了 你們如果整天這樣有時候他有沒有心情 又沒辦法心情 我知道你們的後遺"},{"start":660.333,"end":664.396,"text":"你們真正要想辦法說我們本來要補貼是老白老虎剩下現在老白老虎沒剩下算配合自己啦我認為未來你們要去上市去看去處理因為本身的資訊的時間也夠了啦因為最美的一點就是我們的基本資助的水準啦"},{"start":688.436,"end":693.777,"text":"在這裏面已經十幾年了,你們要如何去處理,去解決問題正當我們的林宥昌部長也有說過,要改到現在本席所了解,不然改"},{"start":706.981,"end":715.069,"text":"我們補貼這個數據先辦單位用心去處理以上謝謝 我給王議員再補充數字我們累計申請的這個租金補貼現在是75萬8千多戶那合訂的話是64萬2千多戶"},{"start":725.938,"end":734.184,"text":"那你剛所提到的就是說他在申請的面積上面的算法的話我們再跟地方政府再來核定一下看怎麼對讓地方政府來做比較詳細的審查"},{"start":755.658,"end":763.512,"text":"去配合去了解啦我們來合調可以讓這個政府的美意再做好到底啦是好我們來改進好感謝完美會委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時45分）主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["王委員美惠：部長你好，早安。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：部長，今天討論租賃透明化的問題，包括實價登錄，本席要跟你探討的是，之前我們在內政委員會也有討論過，也有很多縣市都反對這種做法，本席要跟你在這裡探討，到目前為止是不是很多縣市反對這種透明化實價登錄的做法？請部長來回答。"],["劉部長世芳：是，王委員，對於租賃市場的透明化是我們推動的方向，我們在跟地方政府溝通的過程當中，其實不在於地方政府執行的程度，他們也願意配合，因為租賃市場越透明的話，對於房客或是對於房東本身能夠產生比較好的措施並穩健來推動，如果你一方面要求所有的都要做實價登錄的話，房東可能不想租屋了，整個租屋市場再萎縮的話，不利於房客。"],["王委員美惠：對，說不定會造成租金越漲越高。"],["劉部長世芳：但是如果以房東為主，不但稅可以減免，也可以不用登錄的話，這樣對於房客來講的話又不公平，所以怎麼樣慢慢可以在不要影響到個資保護的狀況下，還有在市場推動的運作上面能夠比較健康，我們已經有推出一些措施，譬如，剛剛很多人提到的公益房東或社會住宅，還有我們用去識別化的方式先公布72.7萬戶，我們能夠掌握到的租金補貼的方向，提供給大家參考。如果租客看到這些數目的話，他會覺得至少他今天要去租房子不要被騙了，對房東來講，他也不要覺得他的價格與眾不同、太高了，但是我要跟大家報告，我們大概不會去處理頂級的狀況，譬如，有人要租帝寶，我們就可能不會去處理那一塊，所以我們現在出來的不可能是百分之百。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我最主要就是要問你這個問題，關於租金實價登錄，萬一就像剛剛部長說的，如果他只登記最高的，這樣租金行情會被打亂或是越漲越高。部長，我之所以給你這麼多時間解釋、說明，是因為我覺得這需要讓我們臺灣的百姓瞭解，不管是出租也好或租屋也好，都要瞭解清楚一點，不然有的人會害怕，如果實價登錄只登記高價的，低價的沒有登記，人民都已經艱苦到不知道要怎麼租屋，所以我們希望中央政府可以做得更好，讓經濟因難又需要租屋者的負擔可以減輕，我覺得部長剛剛解釋的重點在這裡，部長是不是還有要補充什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：感謝委員。我相信租賃市場的透明化要慢慢去引導，讓租客本身或房屋的房東自己覺得朝著這個方向是好的，雖然我們已經制定很多法案，包括包租代管業者、不動產經紀業者，目前也有人慢慢朝這個方面推動。目前我們嘗試著在跟這些包租代管業者能夠互相互動更好，能夠保障房客和房東兩方面都有得利，譬如，剛剛有委員提到房屋的租金過低，房東不願意進入，這個也是我們擔心的。"],["王委員美惠：這也是一個問題。"],["劉部長世芳：尤其雙北是一個比較大的狀況，大家都集中到雙北的時候，展現在租賃市場透明化上面就會比其他縣市來得比較少，就表示這個部分我們還可以透過包括社會住宅、包租代管業者、公益出租人或是資訊透明的方向，要四線一起推動才比較好。現在猛然、一下子就說我要做什麼事情，反而會造成擾動，對於租屋者本身，尤其是對於青年租客會有比較大的衝擊，這個是我們比較擔心的。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我覺得困難的問題都在這裡，本席知道你們也想要把它做好，你們很努力，透過透明化、透過法制就是希望可以讓百姓的生活過得更好，你們很用心去推動這些政策，不過還有不足的地方，就像本席剛剛說的，不要做到最後是「做甲流汗、嫌甲流瀾」，租金不降反漲，這樣就很糟糕了，本席跟你說的是最要緊的，不然說實在，現在的年輕人也很擔心房子一直漲，他們也怕租金一直漲，這是最重要的部分，我也希望部長要再詳細關心一下、注意一下，未來可以做得更好。","再來，本席要跟你探討在租賃契約裡面都有限制電費的收取，從去年7月開始就規定房東不行向租屋者收取超過台電所收的電費，超過的話會被罰款，最基本一開始會罰3萬到30萬，如果情況惡劣的話會罰5萬到50萬，我這樣聽起來你們是要房客去檢舉，不過租屋者敢檢舉房東嗎？我比較擔心、擔憂的是，未來你們政策實施的方向是電費要按照這樣的方式收取，萬一加在房租裡面的話也會很糟糕，部長，會有這種這裡不漲、那裡漲的情況，我希望我們的政策可以讓百姓更加安心，不然這些年輕人會擔心，今天你們修的，今天你們所談的，對我們的租金不知道有沒有影響。","今年的租金補貼300億，我也有聽到部長所說的，現在已經六十三萬多戶申請了，嘉義市已經有九千三百多戶申請，通過的有8,133戶，不過未來我們的租金補貼如果沒辦法補貼到一年，譬如只補貼到10月、11月，剩下的1、2個月要叫百姓怎麼生活？部長，本席覺得我們談歸談、看歸看，在地方上租金補貼也是很要緊的事情，像嘉義市已經通過8,133戶，如果1戶算2人就好，就會影響到1萬6,000人了，所以部長，需要租金補貼的人非常擔心今年後面的租金要怎麼辦，要去哪裡借、要去哪裡拿，部長，這個問題你回答一下。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝王委員的關心。沒錯，因為今年300億裡面有一個是行政院公務預算撥補的200億，現在就是卡在立法院，嘉義市截至3月20日止核定8,137戶，撥款金額七千多萬，沒有錯，有可能到10月或11月的時候這個租金補貼就用罄了，我們再一起努力……"],["王委員美惠：對，因為本席也都有在跟你們探討這個問題。"],["劉部長世芳：有可能沒辦法撥得出來，因為我們的錢數不夠，我們原先的預估是300億，現在有200億卡在立法院裡面，這對我們造成很大的困擾。"],["王委員美惠：部長，本席要跟你說的是，要怎麼趕快去解決這個問題，如果是凍結要怎麼去處理，有的人提凍結也口口聲聲說他的做法不是這樣，我覺得這個問題實在對申請租金補貼的百姓來說影響非常的大。"],["劉部長世芳：對，尤其是對很多年輕人影響很大，等於是讓他的租金打折，打成八折或是打成九折。"],["王委員美惠：現在本席要跟你說的是，你們的預算不夠，但是到現在還可以申請，因為你們的目標是75萬戶。"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們是繼續在核定。"],["王委員美惠：現在已經申請63萬戶，你們現在錢不夠，這是一個問題，部長，你要再仔細計算一下。本席要再跟你討論自用住宅的規定，你們有一個規定是40平方公尺也就是12坪，我覺得你們還可以再評估看看，有可能是在他的故鄉阿嬤住的「土角厝」或是鐵皮屋，你們如果這樣規定，會讓他連申請都沒辦法申請，我知道你們是好意，你們之前也有想辦法要解決這個問題，本來申請補貼的規定是連父母都要計入，現在父母不計入，只計入配偶及小孩，我覺得未來你們要再詳細去評估看看怎麼處理。因為本席質詢的時間也到了，最後一點就是我們的基本居住水準，在這裡已經十幾年了，你們要如何去處理、去解決問題？去年林右昌部長也有說過要再改，至今依本席所瞭解的還是沒改，希望部長、署長及承辦單位用心去處理，以上。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。我跟王委員補充說明數字資料，我們累計申請的租金補貼，現在是七十五萬八千多戶，核定是六十四萬兩千多戶。你剛剛所提到的在申請面積上面的算法，我們再跟地方政府再來核定一下，讓地方政府來做比較詳細的審查，當然我們不會……"],["王委員美惠：對啦！有時候是「土角厝」，有時候真的……"],["劉部長世芳：要不要記錄，對、對。"],["王委員美惠：是不是要記錄下來，可以讓他去申請的問題？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["王委員美惠：我們是在地方，因為當我們遇到問題跟你們反映，你們要去跟地方政府配合、瞭解。"],["劉部長世芳：我們來協調。"],["王委員美惠：可以讓政府的美意做得更加道地，以上。"],["劉部長世芳：是，好。我們來改進。"],["主席：感謝王美惠委員。"],["王委員美惠：不好意思。"],["主席：沒關係。","下一位我們請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}