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那有請部長請進部 郭部長跟台電董事長台電曾董事長好"},{"start":24.794,"end":48.206,"text":"從早上我們在討論的主要今天我們電業法等一下的修法有討論到整個台電它整個完整性那以及未來台電要面對的一個課題那當然大家也都有討論到電價這件事情當然這個電價就是因為我們之前要用一千億要來撥補台電那這個看來這個期待落空所以台電馬上要面對的就是"},{"start":49.807,"end":58.016,"text":"這個有這個不足嘛有短掃可能要用其他的方式要不然要不早說我覺得事實上還是有一些財政手段"},{"start":59.324,"end":79.451,"text":"也可以來解決台電的問題因為如果說行政院這一次就是要用1000億來面對台電的這個虧損那我想要把一些台電的一些負債的數據給部長你參考一下部長你可以看台電從105年的時候他每年的利息支出大概是180億"},{"start":80.931,"end":99.015,"text":"那你一直看喔 到了111年的時候 它的利息支出 每年利息支出正式到了200億到了114年的時候 每年的利息支出 在我最右下的這一個 320億所以你可以想像 每一年台電就要面對320億利息沒有還本"},{"start":103.806,"end":127.422,"text":"光歷史就這樣所以我要跟部長建議的就是說我們還是有財政手段尤其部長你本身就是一個企業家你知道說這個企業面對虧損的時候財政手段也是一個方式那自然要面對財政手段的時候我們再把它去看台電目前跟銀行舉借的未償還的金額類總共有5997這個97億元"},{"start":134.006,"end":155.29,"text":"這是鏘銀行的鏘銀行的這個結構我再把它細分起來你看台銀就佔了2000億是佔了37%土地銀行是佔了430億輸出入銀行佔了230億其他在於飯工股又是有包括民營的部分和庫佔的比較多1100億所以我現在要補充說關鍵就在財政可以解決這個問題"},{"start":159.707,"end":165.818,"text":"如果我們跟財政部大家坐下來講用財政手段難道不能用國庫舉債借給台電嗎"},{"start":171.468,"end":197.318,"text":"報告委員台電來跟國庫借利息低先消米這些利息部長是這個命題我想委員在上一個會期就已經有指正過了那我們也充分的在考量所以我們經濟部可能會就我們現在這些舉債來發永續債所以我們如果發永續債我相信我們大概可以"},{"start":198.058,"end":217.841,"text":"大概可以少掉這個40%的這個利息可以少40%嘛40%就很多了是40%的霸華業一年就少了一百多億所以謝謝委員當時的這個提醒然後你們再仔細去看因為我們的台灣銀行跟土地銀行跟輸出入銀行這三家銀行是百分之百的關股"},{"start":218.652,"end":238.405,"text":"所以既然他百分之百關股 我們可以由這三家銀行來主導跟其他的民營銀行來跟他談判 請他們把利息降低如果不降低利息的話 我們就把他還掉還掉的話 他們會很難過的喔 這些民營銀行會很痛苦哇 利息不好啊 銀水的水又好 要降利息來降"},{"start":241.176,"end":256.951,"text":"我們如果發永續債可以降到40%好啊 我期待是說因為有這些財政手段財政手段是可以解決的尤其事實上我們也知道說預算法85條營業基金的預算的主要內容"},{"start":257.992,"end":278.666,"text":"有其中一個包括長期債務之舉借及償還長期債務這應該就是保留你說的永續債既然說如果我們這個長期債務我們由公股銀行來主導的話利息可以談得很低在利息最低的一個情況之下把民營銀行相對利息高的把它沖掉"},{"start":279.907,"end":299.852,"text":"台電可以用財政手段來解決現在的這個狀況因為我們現在要面對的就是因為在野黨這個一千億的撥補不會讓台電倒三天嘛我們現在就不希望說這個電價去升上去下跌一定會沒進動這是我們執政黨的原罪啊可是我們還是得面對台電的這個狀況"},{"start":301.152,"end":303.174,"text":"所以我是覺得這個問題部長你應該帶回去然後跟行政院好好的談我們現在已經跟國化會就這個命題你所指導的這個命題已經深入的在檢討"},{"start":316.189,"end":338.265,"text":"我希望說這個要把他持續下去是我就很精準的五分鐘謝謝委員五分鐘就完成我的質詢但是我覺得這個真的可以用財政手段對我們幫助非常大部長我相信這是你的專業因為你來自民間你知道民間遇到周轉不靈的時候總是要有一些辦法嘛好不好是保定我們這個災民加油好不好謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝崔議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（10時45分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["蔡委員易餘：還要請台電董事長。"],["主席：請台電曾董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好！"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，有關電業法的修法，早上我們有討論到整個台電的完整性，以及未來台電要面對的課題，當然，大家也都有討論到電價這件事情。電價部分就是因為我們之前要用1,000億來撥補台電，看來這個期待落空，所以台電馬上要面對的就是它的不足和短少可能要用其他的方式來處理。不過我要跟部長說，我覺得事實上還是有一些財政手段可以來解決台電的問題，因為如果行政院這次就是要用1,000億來面對台電的虧損，那我想要把台電一些負債的數據提供給部長參考一下。","台電從105年起，每年的利息支出大概是180億，到了111年，它每年的利息支出正式進入200億，到了114年的時候，它每年的利息支出已經是320億，所以你可以想像，每一年台電就要面對320億的利息，沒有還本，光是利息就這樣，嚇死人了！所以我要跟部長建議的就是，我們還是有財政手段啊！尤其部長本身就是一個企業家，你知道當企業面對虧損的時候，財政手段也是一個解決方式。談到財政手段，我們再看台電目前跟銀行舉借的未償還金額總共有5,997億元，這是欠銀行的，這部分的結構我再把它細分一下，其中臺銀就占了2,000億（約37%），土地銀行占430億，輸出入銀行占230億，其他是泛公股和民營銀行的部分，合庫占得比較多，是1,100億，所以我要跟部長說，關鍵就在財政手段可以解決這個問題耶！如果我們跟財政部大家一起坐下來談，用財政手段，難道不能用國庫舉債借給台電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["蔡委員易餘：讓台電來跟國庫借，利息低，先消弭這些利息，部長？"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個命題委員上個會期就已經指正過了，我們也充分在考量，所以經濟部可能會就我們現在這些舉債來發永續債，如果我們發永續債，相信大概可以少掉40%的利息。"],["蔡委員易餘：可以少40%？40%就很多了，一年就少了一百多億耶！"],["郭部長智輝：是，所以謝謝委員當時的提醒。"],["蔡委員易餘：然後你們再仔細去看，因為臺灣銀行、土地銀行和輸出入銀行這3家銀行是百分之百的官股，既然它是百分之百官股，我們可以由這3家銀行來主導跟其他民營銀行談判，請他們把利息降低，如果不降低利息的話，我們就把它還掉，還掉的話，這些民營銀行會很痛苦喔，因為利息沒有了，所以他們立刻就會同意降低利息。真的啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們如果發永續債的話，可以降到40%。"],["蔡委員易餘：好啊！我的期待是，因為有這些財政手段，而財政手段是可以解決的，尤其事實上我們也知道根據預算法第八十五條，營業基金預算之主要內容包括長期債務之舉借及償還，這應該就是部長所說的永續債。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果這個長期債務由公股銀行來主導的話，利息可以談得很低，在利息最低的情況之下，把民營銀行相對利息高的沖掉，台電可以用財政手段來解決現在這個狀況，因為我們現在要面對的就是這1,000億的撥補，在野黨不要幫忙台電嘛！我們現在就不希望電價漲上去，百姓一定會罵執政黨，這是我們執政黨的原罪啊！可是我們還是得面對台電的這個狀況。所以我是覺得這個問題，部長應該帶回去，然後跟行政院好好的談，請他們把財政部找來。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在已經跟國發會就委員所指導的這個命題深入在檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我希望要把它持續下去。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我就很精準的5分鐘……"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：5分鐘就完成我的質詢，但是我覺得這個真的可以用財政手段……"],["郭部長智輝：對我們的幫助非常大。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我相信這是你的專業，因為你來自民間，你知道民間遇到周轉不靈的時候，總是要有一些辦法嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我們再一起加油，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。足堪楷模，令人敬佩！部長請回座。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：下一位請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","陳培瑜","黃國昌","葉元之","林德福","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「電業法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員賴士葆等 17 人擬具\n「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員林岱樺等18人擬具「電業法第六條條文修\n正草案」案；四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員\n邱議瑩等16人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案；六、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「電業法\n部分條文修正草案」案；七、本院委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}