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一個空白授權了你這位內政部長的前線你總統還大這大概是差不多跟皇帝一樣大了報告張委員這個是行政院在111年的時候通過的行政院在111年通過內政部只是按照行政院的會議通過做一下我們的實施辦法的修正"},{"start":110.731,"end":122.384,"text":"行政院在111年也就是三年前通過的我們只是按照這個預防執法在做我們的公告而已部長你現在將心比心你想現在談的是27億的 倍億的"},{"start":125.899,"end":134.71,"text":"替代役喔 如果家裡面有四個人 這個就是牽扯到一百萬人喔柯定來來辛苦辛苦你看這個修正 本來是退役八年內嘛對不對這個你明確把他拿掉了嘛 對不對"},{"start":143.24,"end":157.899,"text":"所以是全部退役的隨時可能會被找跌這是跌跌對不對 這個明確嗎沒有啊 它是36歲以前36歲以前36嘛喔 那這個跌跌 好 OK那你把8年這個拿掉這是第一個嘛 對不對沒有 就是36歲以前 原來就是這樣規定的"},{"start":162.698,"end":184.387,"text":"本來限定是退役八年內嘛新的規定才說是八年內原來是沒有這個八年內的限制原來的話就是說36歲以內的話都可以召集那現在是以退役之後八年內所以是剛好相反事實上是緊縮的那刪掉前年60天這個限制是有的"},{"start":185.292,"end":209.209,"text":"不是 是它原來的規定是30天必要時候得增加然後變成60天那現在的話是30天但是那個只能夠到60天的這個次數的話是上限是沒有是按照實際的狀況而且最重要的是它是指在勤務召集我們的備役有兩種召集一種是演訓召集"},{"start":212.771,"end":227.507,"text":"像是國防部的什麼點閱召集、教育召集這種召集那這個是勤務召集,勤務召集是碰到了事變或者是暫時是有的關鍵就是現在是本來是60天是一個限制嘛對不對現在是刪掉"},{"start":228.388,"end":250.674,"text":"比60天多嗎原來是30天必要時到60天那現在是30天但是按照而且只限於勤務召集也就是說隨時必要的時候可以再增加嘛對不對那是發生事變的時候的勤務召集所以就是把這個界限拿掉了嘛60天已經很多了啊一年才360天你把60天拿掉"},{"start":253.015,"end":277.578,"text":"我們的召集分成兩種一種叫演訓召集五天內一年一次情務召集的話就是在事變或者是暫時的時候才會實施的你現在就是因為你認定你必要嘛所以我今天執行的重點是什麼你要把那個必要不要有灰色地帶我剛才一開始就講我們現在你如果是一個替代役你包括他的家人現在就會想啊"},{"start":278.138,"end":295.003,"text":"我本來規定清清楚楚的啊那你規定完之後你把連線也放寬了次數也放寬了日數也放寬了特別是我剛講你這60天有可能我就有受到影響啦第一我不用問啊一年360才65天你把60天都已經放寬了第二個我平常也要工作啊我有生活啊對不對"},{"start":296.756,"end":321.593,"text":"我退役以後,你隨時把我找來,你要不要付我薪水?這是不是就是一個影響?是不是這樣?OK,所以我要求,我今天的質詢非常的明確第一個,你的必要,你要把人家找來,你這個不要有灰色地帶,把它訂得非常的明確好不好?是是是這是一個那第二個,你不要雙標啊,你看一般兵是一年最多幾天?點招最多幾天?"},{"start":322.742,"end":337.054,"text":"那是國防部他按照 國防部他有教育召集 點閱召集 訓練召集他有五種召集 我們只有兩種召集所有的召集裡面最多有14天啊 你這邊60 你60還往上走必要的時候還往上走 你能不能把它 應該是減少吧"},{"start":338.995,"end":363.77,"text":"可不可以您提到的我要再強調一下這個是在緊急跟非常事變跟暫時的時候才會有這種30天或者是60天的這種平常的話在叫做演訓召集相當於後備軍人的教育召集點約召集等等它是在五天之內而且一年只有一次的時間對啊 給你解釋那麼清楚你為什麼這麼模糊"},{"start":364.29,"end":390.104,"text":"還把連線把次數、倍次數都要拿掉你要把這些東西維持才對啊這樣才會平等嘛是不是是不是這樣我的要求很明確對不對而且合理吧對的話讓我們的替代役可以安心好不好你不要隨時他要被你調來生活會受影響工作會受影響好來你先請問我請保定另外一個問題那部長這幾天你們今天要說租屋啦保定租屋的這個補貼啊你看一下我們的這個提案"},{"start":393.362,"end":420.737,"text":"前陣子怎麼會出現什麼租屋補貼被刪了不過 博定你有看過嗎這個提案啊 第一行這個提案是為了要討論你國土計劃法延後六年要你提一個報告案可是刪減案一開始 刪減的時候就講了中間就開始講了 第一行第一行 博定你有看過嗎第七款第三項的項目怎麼樣你有看過排除這兩支嗎"},{"start":423.396,"end":443.547,"text":"所以這筆錢 刪減的根本一開始就已經排除租屋補貼啊怎麼會有人造謠言說什麼租屋補貼受影響動節什麼時候要解凍我們不知道我是不是詳細請我們署長來回應一下這是署長要處理的我剛剛剛才看你第一行 最後一行你看一下三個月內要跟立法院的內政委員會提出專案報告"},{"start":446.491,"end":460.542,"text":"現在立法院跟內政委員會提出專案報告是三個月內但是我們到目前為止在處理的部分是行政院附議的在立法院並沒有通過所以凍結了還是凍結啊凍結了還是繼續凍結啊凍結了還是繼續凍結啊"},{"start":470.55,"end":489.194,"text":"這個提案就是要你三個月內來報告啊你現在都不爭取這三個月現在三個月內這樣兩個是兩個是 我有提案第一個清清楚楚提案裡面是排除所以沒有刪減到一毛錢的租屋補貸這件事那你一定要要來凍結凍結還是一樣那你叫你三個月來內政委員會做報告目前為止都沒有解凍啊你為什麼提案三個月"},{"start":495.575,"end":524.737,"text":"如果我們沒有按照立法院的程序委員會去排任何解凍案的話那是我們內政部沒有辦法跟我們內政委員會做比較好的溝通但是重點在於立法院立法院的院會有沒有要求針對114年的所有煽動預算開始處理解凍或者是處理其他的解除的部分我們都沒有收到這方面的資訊所以按照目前"},{"start":525.618,"end":549.459,"text":"的狀況就是仍然在凍結的狀態那仍然在凍結的狀態對我們內政部影響最大的就是租金補貼的部分租金補貼第一個我剛剛講了已經這個是排除債務一毛錢都沒刪那你一定要硬咬說是凍結你包括凍結的錢算除掉之後也足夠你付一年這個沒有問題那現在更重要的你應該主動去爭取啊"},{"start":550.373,"end":560.207,"text":"你為什麼要等你剛剛的議事什麼還沒開始這兩天的提案這個就是立法院的結議文這是委員會過了以後到了議員會又過了要你三個議院內提一個報告出來"},{"start":562.213,"end":586.232,"text":"那你為什麼不提 你沒提 你在甩鍋叫那請問一下 所謂的三個月內是從日曆年的三個月還是立法院通過114年的行政院的預算的三個月如果是這樣的話 上個禮拜行政院在總統簽署的部分的話就是公告114年行政院的預算 對不對"},{"start":586.872,"end":601.908,"text":"那我們是按照這樣的程序 所以我還是一再非常的清楚我們邏輯上 法律上 行政規範上我們全部按照立法院在解除 或是在處理預算的程序上來走這是我們完全尊重的否定你已經在那裡顧著立法委員 你這位格擁企業副指定"},{"start":604.622,"end":620.264,"text":"跟這位行政院的秘書長你當然知道以前的網歷就是所謂三個月就是從年度就開始算啊因為以前的網路也沒有鋪一這件事也沒有到總統最後公告這回事那你盡快提出來啊那現在凍結的錢也足夠你去付這個"},{"start":621.105,"end":644.123,"text":"房屋津貼趕快做啦好不好現在人民是要你們解決問題第一個不要造謠因為這裡面清楚的解釋它已經被排除這是第一個被排除所以立法院沒有刪租補貼證的一毛錢老實講凍結的錢你把它算進去你還是足夠今年一整年都可以用的好第三個第三個你如果要趕快你要趕快提出來一個解凍案很快就可以通過"},{"start":645.685,"end":664.386,"text":"解凍案你以前當那麼久的立委有沒有你舉個例子給我聽有沒有哪一個凍結案到後來沒有過的有沒有有一個嗎有啊哪一個我可以會後提供給你參考還相當多一個給我就好了除了我印象中除了賴清德當幹事長那一年公司的預算被凍結他到隔年解凍沒有啦"},{"start":667.096,"end":693.333,"text":"立法委為什麼要你要凍結要嘛就把你砍掉來凍結凍結就希望你提出把解決方案嘛像這個凍結案本來要做什麼事情你有沒有看過這些提案因為你的國土計劃法那時候沒有好好去溝通叫你溝通完提案出來如果委員你只要刪掉300萬的國土計劃法我沒意見但是你們民眾黨黨團所提的捅山跟捅洞就動到我們的租金補貼的200億"},{"start":696.02,"end":721.321,"text":"國土計畫你們也提了延期了所以事實上呢我們當然可以在這個地方跟委員好好來做報告這是我們的全責但是呢也請委員了解一下統棟跟統山是在立法院的表決通過的它的法定的這個效率比我們在內政委員會通過的任何解棟跟這個刪除的部分還要來得強謝謝委員的指教裡面怎麼會有你房屋這個房屋金補貼呢你房屋補貼的錢清清楚楚列在這裡啊"},{"start":722.571,"end":733.797,"text":"你什麼嗲嗲倒菜的好啦 最重要的啦第一個不只不要造謠 趕快提出解凍案 趕快通稿好 謝謝 文字都會說話 提案白紙黑字清清楚楚好 謝謝張其開委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時19分）請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長好。時間先暫停，還沒開始。"],["主席：時間暫停一下。"],["張委員啓楷：還沒開始。"],["主席：我宣告一下，因為統計處處長行動比較不方便一點，我們就允許他坐著用麥克風來回答，好不好？跟委員會報告一下。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝召委。"],["主席：準備好了嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：好。部長，今天27萬替代役的備役人員接到你們一顆震撼彈，你們修了替代役備役的擴大召集，把年限、次數、日數全部都放寬了，最重要是後面這個，把不限退役8年內拿掉了，還刪掉全年60天的限制，這樣就變成空白授權了。"],["劉部長世芳：完全沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：現在你這位內政部長的權限比總統還大……"],["劉部長世芳：不是。"],["張委員啓楷：差不多跟皇帝一樣大了，把替代役都找來、召集……"],["劉部長世芳：這個是行政院在111年通過的，內政部只是按照行政院會議通過的來修正我們的實施辦法。行政院在111年，也就是3年前通過的，我們只是按照預告的子法在公告而已。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你現在將心比心，現在談的是27億的備役替代役，如果家裡面有4個人，就牽扯到100萬人。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，總共27萬，你講錯了。"],["張委員啓楷：你看這個修正，本來是退役8年內，對不對？你明確把它拿掉了，對不對？所以全部退役的隨時可能會被找，這是第一個，對不對？這個明確嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有！還是36歲以前。"],["張委員啓楷：好，你把8年這個規定拿掉，這是第一個，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，就是36歲以前，原來就是這樣規定的。"],["張委員啓楷：本來限定是退役8年內，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：這是實施服勤辦法……"],["陳副司長裕興：新的規定才說是8年內，原來沒有8年內的限制。原來是36歲以內都可以召集，現在是以退役之後8年內。"],["劉部長世芳：剛好相反。"],["陳副司長裕興：事實上是緊縮。"],["張委員啓楷：刪掉全年60天這個限制是有的？"],["陳副司長裕興：不是，原來的規定是30天，必要時得增加變成60天，現在的話是30天，但只能夠到60天的上限是沒有，而是按照實際的狀況，最重要的是只在勤務召集。備役有兩種召集，一種是演訓召集，就像國防部的點閱召集、教育召集這種召集。這個是勤務召集，勤務召集是碰到了事變或者是戰時……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，不好意思！關鍵就是本來60天是一個限制，對不對？現在是刪掉，現在是比60天多嗎？"],["陳副司長裕興：原來是30天，必要時到60天，現在是30天而且只限於勤務召集，也就是發生事變的時候……"],["張委員啓楷：就是隨時、必要的時候，可以再增加，對不對？"],["陳副司長裕興：那是發生事變時候的勤務召集。"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以就是把界限拿掉了，60天已經很多了，一年才365天，你把60天拿掉……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，30天變……"],["陳副司長裕興：我們的召集分成兩種，一種叫演訓召集，那是5天內、一年一次……"],["張委員啓楷：對，我知道，各種都一樣，現在最重要的就是……"],["陳副司長裕興：勤務召集就是在事變或者是戰時才會實施。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我知道。你現在就是因為認定必要，所以我今天質詢的重點是什麼？那個「必要」不要有灰色地帶，對不對？"],["陳副司長裕興：對。"],["張委員啓楷：我剛剛一開始就講，如果是一個替代役，包括他的家人，現在就會想，本來規定清清楚楚的，你規定完之後把年限也放寬了，次數也放寬了，日數也放寬了，特別是我剛剛講如果60天有可能，就受到影響了。第一個，我要問的是，一年才365天，你把60天都已經放寬了。第二個，我平常也要工作、要生活，對不對？我退役以後，你隨時把我找來，你要不要付我薪水？這是不是就是影響？是不是這樣？"],["陳副司長裕興：對。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。我今天的質詢非常明確，第一個，有關必要，你要把人家找來，不要有灰色地帶，要把它訂得非常明確，好不好？"],["陳副司長裕興：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這是一個。第二個，你不要雙標，你看一般兵一年最多幾天？點召最多幾天？"],["陳副司長裕興：那是國防部按照……國防部有教育召集、點閱召集、訓練召集，有五種召集，我們只有兩種召集。"],["張委員啓楷：所有的召集裡面最多才14天，你這邊60天，必要的時候還往上走，應該減少吧？可不可以？"],["陳副司長裕興：您提到的我要再強調一下，這個是在緊急跟非常事變、戰時的時候才會有這種30天或者是60天的，平常叫做演訓召集，相當於後備軍人的教育召集、點閱召集等等，是在5天之內而且一年只有一次。"],["張委員啓楷：點召寫得那麼清楚，你為什麼寫得這麼模糊？還把年限、次數、日數都要拿掉，你要把這些東西維持才對，這樣才會平等，是不是？"],["陳副司長裕興：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我的要求很明確，對不對？而且合理吧？"],["陳副司長裕興：對。"],["張委員啓楷：讓我們的替代役可以安心，好不好？不要讓他隨時可以被你調來，生活受影響，工作也受影響。好，你先請回。","我要請問部長另外一個問題，今天我們談租屋，你看一下我們的提案，前陣子怎麼會出現租屋補貼被刪了、不夠。部長，你有看到嗎？這個提案是為了要討論國土計畫法延後6年，要你提一個報告案，可是刪減案一開始刪減的時候就講了，部長唸一下第一行，第七款第二項第三目的項目怎麼樣？你有看到「排除」這兩個字嗎？這筆錢根本一開始刪減就已經排除租屋補貼，怎麼會有人造謠，說租屋補貼受影響？"],["劉部長世芳：凍結什麼時候要解凍，我們不知道，我是不是請署長來詳細回應一下？這是署長要處理的。"],["張委員啓楷：你看一下最後一行，3個月內要跟立法院的內政委員會提出專案報告，現在3月底了，你提了嗎？主動權……"],["劉部長世芳：立法院跟內政委員會提出專案報告是3個月內，但我們到目前為止處理的情況是，行政院的覆議在立法院並沒有通過，所以凍結的還是凍結。"],["張委員啓楷：你3個月內提到內政委員會，就會通過解凍了……"],["劉部長世芳：凍結的還是繼續凍結。"],["張委員啓楷：這個提案就是要你3個月內來報告，你都不爭取這3個月，現在3月底了。兩件事，第一個，清清楚楚，提案裡面是排除，所以沒有刪減到一毛錢的租屋補貼，這是第一個。"],["吳署長欣修：凍結還是一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：叫你3個月內來內政委員會報告……"],["劉部長世芳：目前為止都沒解凍！"],["張委員啓楷：你就提，你為什麼提案3個月……"],["劉部長世芳：如果我們沒有按照立法院的程序委員會排任何解凍案的話，內政部沒有辦法跟內政委員會做比較好的溝通，但是重點在於立法院院會有沒有要求針對114年所有刪凍預算開始處理解凍，或者是處理其他解除的部分，我們都沒有收到這方面的資訊，所以按照目前的狀況就是仍然在凍結的狀態，對內政部影響最大的就是租金補貼的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，我剛剛講了，租金補貼是排除在外，一毛錢都沒刪，你一定要硬咬說是凍結，老實說，凍結的錢刪掉之後也足夠你付一年了，這個沒有問題。現在更重要的是，部長應該主動去爭取，你為什麼要等？你剛剛的意思是還沒開始，這個就是立法院的決議文，這是委員會過了以後，到了院會又過了，要你3個月內提一個報告出來，你為什麼不提？你沒提，你甩鍋要立法院……"],["劉部長世芳：請問一下，所謂的3個月內是從日曆年的3個月，還是立法院通過114年行政院預算的3個月？如果是這樣的話，上個禮拜行政院簽署總統公告114年行政院的預算，對不對？"],["張委員啓楷：對。"],["劉部長世芳：我們是按照這樣的程序，所以還是非常清楚，邏輯上、法律上、行政規範上，我們全部按照立法院在解除或是在處理預算的程序來走，這是我們完全尊重的。"],["張委員啓楷：你以前做那麼久的立法委員，還當過高雄市副市長，又擔任行政院秘書長，你當然知道以前的往例所謂3個月就是從年度就開始算。"],["吳署長欣修：因為以前往例沒有覆議這件事，也沒有到總統最後公告這回事。"],["張委員啓楷：沒關係！終究要等總統府公告，你也儘快提出來，現在凍結的錢也足夠你去付房屋津貼，趕快做，好不好？現在人民是要你們解決問題。第一個、不要造謠，因為這裡面清楚……"],["吳署長欣修：這個不是造謠，這在凍結案裡面會非常清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：它已經被排除，這是第一個，被排除。立法院沒有刪租屋補貼任何一毛錢，老實講，你把凍結的錢算進去，今年一整年還是足夠、可以用。"],["劉部長世芳：統凍跟統刪在立法院……"],["張委員啓楷：第三個，你如果趕快提出解凍案報告，很快就可以通過。部長，我問你，你以前當那麼久的立委，你舉一個例子給我聽，有沒有哪個凍結案到後來沒有過的？有嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有啊！"],["張委員啓楷：哪一個？"],["劉部長世芳：我可以會後提供給你參考，還相當多。"],["張委員啓楷：給我一個就好了。我印象中除了賴清德當幹事長那一年，公視的預算被凍結到隔年才解凍，沒有！立法委員為什麼要凍結？要嘛就把你砍掉了，還凍結？凍結就是希望你提出解決方案嘛！像這個凍結案本來要做什麼事情？你們有看提案嗎？因為你的國土計畫法那時候沒有好好去溝通……"],["劉部長世芳：我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：叫你溝通完提案出來，這個很簡單……"],["劉部長世芳：好，如果委員只要刪掉300萬的國土計畫法，我沒意見，但是你們民眾黨黨團所提的統刪跟統凍就凍到我們的租金補貼200億。國土計畫你們也提了延期，事實上我們當然可以在這個地方跟委員好好來做報告，這是我們的權責，但也請委員了解一下，統凍跟統刪是在立法院表決通過的，它的法定效力比我們在內政委員會通過任何解凍跟刪除的部分還要來得強，謝謝委員指教。"],["張委員啓楷：統凍和統刪裡面怎麼會有房屋補貼？房屋補貼的錢清清楚楚列在這裡，你怎麼「竹篙湊菜刀」？好啦，最重要的，第一個不要造謠，趕快提出解凍案，趕快通過，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：我們完全沒有造謠。"],["張委員啓楷：文字都會說話，提案白紙黑字清清楚楚。"],["劉部長世芳：但是是錯誤的。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","本席在這邊做一下說明這幾個事情，我們還是還原一下：第一個，這個解凍案不是立法院要求，應該是行政機關要提，你提了之後送到院會、院會付委之後到委員會來做處理，這是第一個。第二個時間序的部分，因為這次是特別有提了覆議案，覆議案完了之後，其實真正能夠開始進行解凍程序是從今天開始，因為總統公布完，但問題是這樣，其實如果早公布，不去走覆議程序，搞不好現在我們已經討論解凍了，對不對？好，沒關係，事情發生了就發生了，好不好？既然大家都為了國家的發展，部裡面應該有很多委屈，那就儘快把它提出來、儘快提出來，我們就儘快來排，希望部裡面趕快來做溝通，其實就是這樣子而已，好不好？我們就不要再針對這個事情吵架。很清楚，不管是什麼提案都規定3個月之內要處理，我剛剛也講，不管怎麼樣，這會期一定要把它處理掉，既然處理掉，就不會出現所謂11月以後租金補貼斷炊的問題，不會嘛！因為原則上大家都同意，我目前還沒有聽到會反對解凍的，就請國土署積極來溝通，其實這樣就好了，好不好？謝謝，休息5分鐘。","休息（11時32分）","繼續開會（11時37分）"],["主席：謝謝各位同仁，我們繼續開會。","下一位我們請邱志偉委員質詢。沒關係，喝一口茶沒問題的，你一向非常準時，所以沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：準時是應該的。"],["主席：我到經濟委員會質詢的時候，您當召委我也很準時。"],["邱委員志偉：國會議員基本素養。"],["主席：好，請邱志偉委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-5","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","吳琪銘","許宇甄","張啓楷","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","黃健豪","黃珊珊","鍾佳濱","郭國文","高金素梅"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長、財政部就「租賃住宅市場透明化之現況及展望」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}