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怎麼辦"},{"start":220.867,"end":245.24,"text":"基本上我剛才也跟委員報告過就是說目前當然已經生效但生效的前提就是說我現在就問你生效之後你們要不要照辦嘛不辦就說不辦不辦就說地方政府你編兩套一套是按照新法一套是按照舊法現在說清楚講明白如果沒有申請暫時處分也沒有釋憲的話當然一定要按照生效的所以現在是三月快三月底了"},{"start":245.78,"end":275.218,"text":"四月五月你的如果会到几月预算编列不可能等到你们相关的如果发生了解所以时间点第二个地方政府现在到底有多少不知道财政部不想用新法来分配当然我知道你们只想去罢免重点是财政部你是行政机关次长你是重要的政务单位所以你们要告诉地方政府该怎么编吧"},{"start":275.583,"end":304.842,"text":"基本上跟委員報告 基本上我們依法行政法通過了不執行就違法如果它已經正式生效 那當然我們一定要依法來執行至少不要再說如果 它今天就正式生效今天 現在你要不要告訴我一下地方政府該怎麼辦地方政府那一部分因為它是下一個會計年度的四個月之前我們才有分配法所以你要告訴他說依照新通過的法律去編列吧"},{"start":309.163,"end":335.02,"text":"所以你是要告訴我說中央的主管機關可以告訴地方政府你不用按照新法去編列時間還沒到到時候再看看這個國家因為行政院這樣的態度因為行政院完全不想要把這個版本拿出來跟立法院討論因為行政院只想"},{"start":336.28,"end":364.503,"text":"政黨繼續火車對撞繼續魚死網破讓國家停擺這才是我今天看到行政院的態度財政部從來沒有放棄繼續在修法我再說一下很好笑你們3月6號不是開了一個會然後我們跟你們調資料你知道國庫署打電話副議案通過之後國庫署打來說請問辦公室還要不要資料意思就是說副議案通過了立法委員"},{"start":365.799,"end":390.868,"text":"要你們3月6號的所謂的徵詢會議資料已經不用提供了然後徵詢會議也沒有意義了 是嗎不會 我了解是沒有這種情況如果委員需要這個資料 那個會議記錄的話我們會後會提供 這沒有問題的是啊 所以他打電話來問我要不要資料要資料就是要資料第二個 你們的所謂的徵詢會議開了多少次啊"},{"start":391.533,"end":412.023,"text":"我們現在開了三次已經開了第三次從去年到現在開過幾次啊開過三次只開過三次最近一次是3月6號是由組織長所以去年立法院叫你們去提版本到今年你們只開過三次徵詢會議問地方政府問了三次都沒有答案所以就不提版本是嗎"},{"start":413.303,"end":433.553,"text":"我跟委員報告了 財政劃分法是我們中央跟地方財政收支劃分的我現在只想說 接下去115年的預算就在眼前我希望你一個月之內告訴我 告訴地方政府該怎麼編列你們要復業也好 你們要行政儲備也好"},{"start":434.915,"end":461.027,"text":"明白的告訴大家第二個不要讓院長拿了一個假的版本在立法院說我手上就有版本如果一個連財政部連主計處都沒看過的版本然後院長在立法院公開的回答委員說我手上就是版本到今天為止我很希望看到那個版本結果連你們也沒看過我們也沒看過全世界都沒看過但是行政院說我有版本他不拿給我們"},{"start":462.372,"end":490.285,"text":"只拿去外面宣講這是一個負責任的政府嗎拿去外面宣講不願意拿給要投附議票同不同意的立法委員來參考認為立法院一定不會通過如果你們有好的版本為什麼不爭取大家的支持這才是問題啊次長我給你一個月的時間115年的預算怎麼編要如何編接下來我想問一下主計長"},{"start":491.653,"end":517.462,"text":"我們接下去賴信德總統說我們被美國點名了我們要達到GDP3%的國防預算如果按照計算的話我們3%將近要8000億現在國防支出大概是6000多億所以還要再續編1500億左右請問會提出特別預算會提出相關的這個裁員來源嗎"},{"start":519.64,"end":538.676,"text":"這個部分我們就要看國防部他那個什麼時候會提我們是朝這個目標來進行還不知道什麼時候要提因為有時候就是說我縱使要維持百分之三我也沒辦法每一年都打百分之三所以今年不知道第二個如果要提這多提了一千五百億的話請問要舉債嗎"},{"start":542.561,"end":545.044,"text":"目前原則上我們先規劃說是用累積剩餘來做我們目前"},{"start":558.058,"end":566.882,"text":"你的主產快花光啦但是大概累積起來應該還有將近兩千多億可以用兩千多億可以用所以暫時不會舉債來編這個特別預算原則上希望不要舉債那如果非得舉債也是應該要舉債所以你同意我們現在大家都希望說超徵的金額要拿來補發現金那接下來去又編了這麼多可能要新增的預算請問你這個"},{"start":586.05,"end":610.717,"text":"掌握國家財政調度的主計長你這個要怎麼調配啊所以我們不希望說限定說哪些預算裡面限定哪些哪些是限定所以我們就可以按優先順序來做排列來做調整以上好所以現在財政部還有一個問題就是計劃性補助款是財政部在預算裡面很重要的調節所謂地方差異的狀況來時間暫停我請"},{"start":614.588,"end":640.5,"text":"所以財政部的計劃性補助款就像剛剛陳玉珍委員問的會不會有類似剛剛上述所言因為財化法的修正而有這樣子的差別待遇財政部據我了解計劃型的預算不是我們財政部這邊所以各單位來負責希望不要有任何所謂的差別待遇好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員的資訊下面請王世堅委員發言"},{"start":651.801,"end":653.345,"text":"我們十一點五十開始發生變態"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時32分）謝謝主席，我請主計長還有財政部阮次長。"],["主席：請主計長、財政部阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位好。3月12號立法院否決了財劃法覆議案，當天本席在質詢院長的時候，院長說他手上有一個行政院的版本，請問兩位，你們看過行政院的版本了嗎？院長手上那個版本你看過了沒？"],["阮次長清華：沒有，我自己……"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，你看過了沒？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們有討論過。"],["黃委員珊珊：有討論過？那你看過版本了沒？"],["陳主計長淑姿：版本是沒有看過，就是有討論……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以財政部也沒看過版本，但是就在院長手上，財政部次長沒有看過版本？"],["阮次長清華：沒有看過這個版本，但是就架構……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以意思就是說，院長拿了一個空包彈來立法院欺騙我們所有的委員嗎？"],["阮次長清華：但是就財劃法的架構是有交換意見。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以從頭到尾行政院到現在都還沒有任何的版本！院長說他有版本要跟立法院討論，到目前為止還是空談。我想問一下，覆議案上個禮拜通過，上個禮拜五正式公告，今天正式實施、今天開始115年的預算編列就在眼前，我想問一下兩位，尤其是主計長，請問，若適用新法，就應該按照新法來編列，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們也有跟相關的法規單位去請示過……"],["黃委員珊珊：我在問你法律，法律通過了要不要執行？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它生效是114年，但因為我們整個流程……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為你還沒有編，所以你將要編的是115年，我沒有在問你114年，所以115年的預算正要編，要怎麼編？是用新法來編、用新的財政收支劃分法來編，是吧？依照法律規定，是不是這樣？主計長，是吧？請問現在地方政府它的歲入，有關中央這些統籌分配稅的金額跟相關的數字，主計總處會不會預估給他們？還是他們自己隨便亂編？兩位沒有要回答我嗎？"],["阮次長清華：統籌分配稅款是這樣，就是在每一個會計年度之前的4個月，它就要分配下去，所以就114年度來講，時間已經過了，所以沒辦法再分配……"],["黃委員珊珊：我沒有在跟你講114年，我現在問你的是115年，現在地方政府正要開始編，請問財政部，他們要怎麼編？"],["阮次長清華：前提就看我們財劃法有沒有生效，如果是有經過……"],["黃委員珊珊：剛剛講了，今天已經生效了，已經公告了，所以次長你現在在這裡，就不要再跟我講生不生效的問題。"],["阮次長清華：假定相關黨團或者……"],["黃委員珊珊：好啦！我現在只要問，地方政府是不是還要等到你們去聲請釋憲、去覆議、去大罷免，然後編兩套預算版本，一個是依舊法的，一個是依新法的，是不是要編兩套預算版本才可以因應接下來的預算編列？尤其是7月、8月時就要送到立法機關去審議，財政部要不要告訴一下地方政府他們該怎麼辦？"],["阮次長清華：基本上，我剛才也跟委員報告過，目前當然已經生效，但生效的前提就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在問你生效之後，你要不要照辦嘛！不辦就說不辦，不辦就說地方政府編兩套，一套是按照新法，一套是按照舊法，現在就說清楚、講明白！"],["阮次長清華：如果沒有聲請暫時處分，也沒有釋憲的話，當然一定要按照生效的來處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在是快3月底了，接著是4月、5月，你剛才提的「如果」會到幾月？預算編列不可能等到你們相關的「如果」發生！"],["阮次長清華：了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以第一個，時間點；第二個，地方政府現在到底能有多少？不知道！財政部不想用新法來分配，當然，我知道你們只想去罷免……"],["阮次長清華：我們不會……"],["黃委員珊珊：財政部是行政機關，次長是重要的政務單位，所以你們要告訴地方政府該怎麼編吧？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，基本上，我們依法行政，如果……"],["黃委員珊珊：法通過了不執行就違法了。"],["阮次長清華：如果財劃法已經正式生效，當然我們一定要依法來執行……"],["黃委員珊珊：次長不要再說「如果」了，它今天就正式生效，今天！現在！你要不要告訴我一下，地方政府該怎麼辦？"],["阮次長清華：地方政府的那一部分，因為它是下一個會計年度的4個月之前分配……"],["黃委員珊珊：很好，所以你要告訴它說，依照新的、新通過的法律去編列，對吧？"],["阮次長清華：因為時間還沒到，所以115年我們是在……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你是要告訴我，中央的主管機關可以告訴地方政府，不用按照新法去編列？"],["阮次長清華：應該是說時間還沒到，到時候我們要看整個修法的狀況……"],["黃委員珊珊：時間還沒到？到時候再看？這個國家因為行政院這樣的態度；因為行政院完全不想把這個版本拿出來跟立法院討論；因為行政院只想政黨繼續火車對撞、繼續魚死網破、讓國家停擺，這才是我今天看到的行政院態度。"],["阮次長清華：財政部從來沒有放棄繼續修法，因為目前的修法……"],["黃委員珊珊：我再說一下，很好笑，你們3月6號開了一個會，然後我們跟你們調資料，你知道嗎？覆議案通過之後，國庫署打來說，請問辦公室還要不要資料？意思就是說，覆議案通過了，立法委員要求你們提供3月6號徵詢會議的資料，已經不用提供了，然後徵詢會議也沒有意義了，是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：不會，據我了解是沒有這種情況，如果委員需要這個會議紀錄的資料，我們會後會提供，這是沒有問題的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是啊！所以為何要打電話來問我還要不要資料？要資料就是要資料。第二個，你們所謂的徵詢會議開了多少次？"],["阮次長清華：我們現在開了3次，已經開第3次。"],["黃委員珊珊：才第3次啦！從去年到現在開過幾次？"],["阮次長清華：開過3次。"],["黃委員珊珊：只開過3次。"],["阮次長清華：最近一次是3月6號，是由主計長還有莊部長共同主持。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以去年立法院叫你們去提版本，到今年你們只開過3次徵詢會議，問地方政府問了3次都沒有答案，所以就不提版本，是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，財政收支劃分法是我們中央跟地方財政收支劃分的根本大法，所以我是說這個是非常……"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在只想說，接下去115年的預算就在眼前，我希望你在1個月之內告訴我、告訴地方政府該怎麼編列，你們要覆議也好，你們要行政處分也好，明白的告訴大家。"],["阮次長清華：我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，不要讓院長拿了一個假的版本在立法院說我手上就有版本！如果一個連財政部、連主計總處都沒看過的版本，然後院長在立法院公開的回答委員說：我手上的就是版本！到今天為止，我很希望看到那個版本，結果連你們也沒看過，我們也沒看過，全世界都沒看過，但是行政院說我有版本！他不拿給我們，只拿去外面宣講，這是一個負責任的政府嗎？拿去外面宣講，不願意拿給要對覆議案投票同不同意的立法委員來參考，是認為立法院一定不會通過？如果你們有好的版本，為什麼不爭取大家的支持？這才是問題啊！次長，我給你1個月的時間，我要求說明115年的預算怎麼編、要如何編。","接下來，我想問一下主計長，賴清德總統說我們被美國點名了，我們要達到占GDP3%的國防預算。如果按照計算的結果，我們GDP的3%將近要8,000億，現在國防支出大概是六千多億，所以還要再續編1,500億左右。請問會提出特別預算、會提出相關的財源來源嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們就要看國防部……"],["黃委員珊珊：什麼時候會提？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上我們是朝這個目標來進行。"],["黃委員珊珊：還不知道什麼時候要提？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為有時候就是說我縱使要維持3%，我也沒辦法每一年都達3%。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以今年不知道？"],["陳主計長淑姿：今年大概不可能啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：好，如果要多編1,500億的話，請問要舉債嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前原則上我們先規劃……"],["黃委員珊珊：是用舉債？"],["陳主計長淑姿：用累計賸餘來做，當然，如果要舉債……"],["黃委員珊珊：用歲計賸餘來做，你現在歲計賸餘稅剩多少？你現在歲計賸餘只剩下一千多億了，是嗎？是1,100億嗎？你的祖產快花光了！"],["陳主計長淑姿：113年是1,581億，但是累積起來應該大概還有將近兩千多億可以用。"],["黃委員珊珊：有兩千多億可以用？所以暫時不會舉債來編這個特別預算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上希望不要舉債！如果非舉債不可，也是應該要舉債，因為國防是很重要的。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們現在大家都希望超徵的金額要拿來普發現金，那接下去又可能要編這麼多新增的預算，你是掌握國家財政調度的主計長，請問你要怎麼調配？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我們不希望在預算裡面有哪些、哪些是限定，這樣我們就可以按優先順序排列、調整，以上。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以現在財政部還有一個問題，就是計畫性補助款，這是財政部在預算裡面用來調節所謂地方差異很重要的部分。來，時間暫停，我要請問財政部。就像剛剛陳玉珍委員問的，財政部的計畫性補助款會不會如上述所言因為財劃法的修正而有這樣子的差別待遇？"],["阮次長清華：據我了解，計畫型的預算不是我們財政部這邊的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以是各單位來負責？"],["阮次長清華：對，由各部會來負責。"],["黃委員珊珊：希望不要有任何所謂的差別待遇，好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員的質詢。","下一位請王世堅委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等26人、委員林德福等20人、委員賴士葆等20人分別擬具「預\n算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1143101_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}