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可以這樣子嗎我跟你講 我認為啦推行有效益的政策才是還稅於民不是這樣嗎所以我今天跟你要求的第一點"},{"start":82.386,"end":88.77,"text":"我要求你主祭處 你要有擔當 不要再講一些不痛不癢的話不要認為說 啊 發發現金 好啦 這個也無傷大雅錯了 要發現金可以"},{"start":102.25,"end":113.587,"text":"那要特別條例而不是設在預算法去把整個預算法是把我們所有收入預算常態化耶你看過去"},{"start":115.1,"end":138.397,"text":"蔡英文總統的時候發了幾次人家是因為有疫情疫後有特別條例也經過全民多數的民眾的民意不是這樣嗎那如果今天我們是要修預算法增加這個條例基本上常態化就是不對了嘛這一點你一定要堅持啊"},{"start":138.797,"end":161.684,"text":"是所以我希望你有擔當擔起來而且最短時間內做出決策不要讓在這個事情讓大家政府也好民間也好心裡有疙瘩啊大家為了這個事情爭論不休忐忑不安我認為不要這個樣子第二點我要告訴你的就是說倒是倒是我們要來"},{"start":167.995,"end":186.267,"text":"這個推動有益的政策啦我認為應該編列特別條例特別預算來針對貼補台電貼補勞健保的缺口貼補長照基金這才是有意義的啊不是這樣嗎我舉勞保就好勞保預估2070年"},{"start":190.834,"end":203.736,"text":"我們的基金總數將是餘額將是負的71.4兆那將就我們國家EDB的三倍天啊天啊"},{"start":204.633,"end":233.227,"text":"所以這個貼補勞保健保這才是應當貼補台電這一次給他們台電一千億這樣免於電價漲價如果政府吸收一千億給台電那就是一千億如果政府不貼補不吸收放給民間去漲的話那就不會是一千億那會變成兩千億三千億的社會負擔所以這個"},{"start":234.668,"end":237.518,"text":"非常要緊不是嗎 還有我們長照基金啊"},{"start":238.659,"end":256.408,"text":"長照基金 哇 也是一個非常大的缺口啦我相信你已經知道嘛長照基金去年的基金來源 欸 入不敷出啊去年基金來源776億結果實際支出高達828億今年你們預估基金來源752億但是用途支出更高達879億不是這樣嗎"},{"start":266.573,"end":291.629,"text":"所以如果照這個預算的話那2028年長照基金就完全用完不是嗎所以我認為這些有意義的政策才是真的環碎於民這也是我們設政府的目的是不是那你的看法呢第一點我真的你剛才"},{"start":293.151,"end":298.916,"text":"其實我們原則上我們都是不支持他發放現金常態化依照發放現金他有特殊的目的所以以往都是定"},{"start":316.952,"end":339.702,"text":"特別條例然後之後通過之後才編列預算所以這個部分如果常態化的話他整個影響整個預算的一個執行的彈性所以我們原則上我們是不支持的對那所以你公正囉所謂的九月可能發放現金你的看法呢"},{"start":340.953,"end":362.606,"text":"你要講得更明確一點啊我知道當然不支持啊常態化就我剛剛講嘛常態化無法保持政府對預算運用的彈性嘛我們會碰到很多社會經濟情勢的變化碰到重大的災情啊等等啊不是嗎疫情啊所以當然不要常態化這是一定的"},{"start":363.624,"end":373.964,"text":"是但是你要針對我說你今天上午剛才被報導的這個啦九月講得很明九月就要發放現金你的看法呢"},{"start":374.551,"end":400.431,"text":"不是 因為我們是說整個一個政策一個優先順序的排列必須由各部會來跟院長報告由院長來做裁示我們當時的部分是說這整個的一個政策是不是要列入政策還是那發放現金一萬元也是你們要跟院長報告的所謂政策之一囉你們決定的因為發放現金不是我們在負責主導但是他現在要修改一個預算法我們是認為我跟你講喔"},{"start":400.971,"end":411.019,"text":"那個主技術還有幾項其實我就舉你們很多預估其實錯誤你們預估去年的GDP最早在前年底的時候你們最早預估的時候說3.35%"},{"start":413.411,"end":440.717,"text":"結果幾次修正以後有提高去年GDP多少4.59%跟你原始的預估差了一點多那我為什麼提這件事情那個主計處我為什麼提這個事情你說三減預算導致政府支出減少導致我們GDP可能下降但是那個差0點多而已所以我是要告訴你第一點我們政府現在財政部"},{"start":441.536,"end":457.209,"text":"我先前質詢之後人家財政部已經積極去推動乙類公債要把我們在海外的授權資金引進回台灣加速台灣的公共建設第二點金管會也通過了不動產證券化REACH"},{"start":459.59,"end":483.09,"text":"歷史這個已經條例也通過要這麼做 也是引進民間資金當有這兩大民間資金的來源進駐到 溢出到我們國內建設的時候我相信我們的GDP會更樂觀那更樂觀的結果 那我們就不必發現金不是嗎那是因為疫情導致GDP下降"},{"start":484.111,"end":501.939,"text":"所以政府才發放現金嘛所以你講的這個預算去影響到GDP導致政府支出去下滑影響GDP第一個我認為那個維吾其第二個你的下滑運送的需要需要發現金了嘛不是嗎所以我希望主技術"},{"start":503.956,"end":519.346,"text":"你不必做任何遮掩你不必為任何已經既定的方向不必你就據實以告好不好因為我看你的個性你也是一個很坦然的人啊我看你先前的做事也是這樣嘛"},{"start":520.927,"end":536.86,"text":"我們就正大光明坦坦然然的面對事實證據還有數據我希望這個數據不要再那麼離譜可不可以你去看一下你前年底你就講3.35你歷來一直修正結果最後4.59差了1.24"},{"start":546.523,"end":564.941,"text":"這個不可謂不大那我希望在這個部分你收回今天早上如果這些媒體的報導是曲解的話我希望待會收回之後你就跟這些媒體溝通希望他們收回這樣子的報導因為事實上"},{"start":565.953,"end":581.249,"text":"沒有這樣子的一回事說確定啦就是要發放啦就是已經作業中啦然後9月要發放這是給我們社會不必要的莫名其妙的額外的一種"},{"start":582.327,"end":610.992,"text":"期待不必要這麼做好不好主計處的任務就是實話實說那精準的數據掌握跟分析然後忠實的向社會大眾報告然後做出應有的政府決策可不可以好不好主計長送你四個字啦認作"},{"start":613.295,"end":614.076,"text":"李昆成議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":952,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時43分）謝謝主席，我請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：主計長，剛才你在回答前幾位委員質詢時所說的，新聞媒體做的解釋就是大概確定要普發現金1萬元，所以我不懂我們後續還要質詢你什麼。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有、沒有。"],["王委員世堅：如果那樣子的報導曲解了你的意思，我認為你應該要適度的澄清。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：剛才幾家主流媒體都已經這樣報導，我希望你……"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，我並沒有這樣……"],["王委員世堅：我簡單講，如果都要發現金，主計長，我現在就可以告訴你，那乾脆3兆1,000億就普發給2,300萬個人民，政府解散算了嘛！不是嗎？解散算了啊！那不是全民皆大歡喜？可以這樣子嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不，我們不支持這個條文的修正。"],["王委員世堅：我跟你講，我認為推行有效益的政策才是還稅於民，不是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以我今天跟你提出要求，第一點，我要求你們主計總處要有擔當，不要再講一些不痛不癢的話，不要認為說可以發發現金，因為這個也無傷大雅，錯了！要發現金可以，但是要通過特別條例，而不是規定在預算法，預算法是把我們所有收入預算常態化耶！你看過去在蔡英文總統的時候發了幾次？人家是因為有疫情，有疫後特別條例，也是全民、多數民眾的民意，不是這樣嗎？如果今天我們是要修預算法、增加這個條例，基本上，常態化就是不對了嘛！這一點你一定要堅持啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以我希望你要有擔當，要擔起來，而且要在最短的時間內做出決策，不要讓政府、民間因為這個事情而心裡有疙瘩，大家為了這個事情爭論不休、忐忑不安，我認為不要這個樣子。","第二點，我要告訴你，就是我們倒是要來推動有益的政策，我認為應該通過特別條例、編列特別預算來貼補台電、貼補勞健保的缺口，還有貼補長照基金，這才是有意義的，不是這樣嗎？我舉勞保就好，勞保基金預估在2070年的基金餘額將是負的71.4兆，將近是我們國家GDP的3倍。天啊！天啊！所以貼補勞保、健保才是應當的，如果是貼補台電，這一次給台電1,000億，這樣免於電價漲價，如果政府吸收1,000億給台電，那就是1,000億；如果政府不貼補、不吸收，放給民間去漲的話，那就不會是1,000億，那會變成2,000億、3,000億的社會負擔，所以這個非常要緊，不是嗎？還有我們的長照基金，長照基金也是有一個非常大的缺口，我相信你已經知道，長照基金去年的基金來源根本就入不敷出啊！去年基金來源是776億，結果實際支出高達828億；今年你們預估基金來源752億，但是用途支出更高達879億，不是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以如果照這個預算，2028年長照基金就會完全用完，不是嗎？所以我認為這些有意義的政策才是真的還稅於民，這也是我們設政府的目的，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：那你的看法呢？第一點，剛才電視主流媒體普遍報導政府已經做了這個打算，大概現在正在作業當中，8月左右完成，大概9月要發，這個部分你要先澄清，你的看法呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上我們不支持發放現金常態化，因為發放現金要有特殊的目的，以往都是訂特別條例，然後通過之後才編列預算。這個部分如果常態化的話，將影響整個預算執行的彈性，所以原則上我們是不支持的。"],["王委員世堅：所以你更正囉？針對9月可能發放現金，你的看法呢？你要講得更明確一點，我知道當然不支持啊！常態化就是我剛剛講的，常態化無法保持政府對預算運用的彈性！我們會碰到很多社會經濟情勢的變化、碰到重大災情、疫情等等，不是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以當然不要常態化，這是一定的。但是你要針對今天上午被報導的，講得很明說9月就要發放現金，你的看法呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們是說整個政策優先順序的排列必須由各部會來跟院長報告，由院長裁示，意思是說整個政策是不是要列入政策，還是必須要由……"],["王委員世堅：發放現金1萬元也是你們要跟院長報告的，所謂你們決定的政策之一？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為發放現金不是我們在負責主導，但是他現在要修改預算法，我們是認為整個……"],["王委員世堅：我跟你講主計處還有幾項……你們其實有很多的預估錯誤。你們預估去年的GDP在前年底的時候，最早預估說是3.35%，結果幾次修正以後有提高，去年GDP多少？4.59%，跟你原始預估差了百分之一點多！主計總處，我為什麼提這個事情？你說刪減預算導致政府支出減少、導致我們GDP可能下降，但是那個差百分之零點多而已。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對啦！它影響比較小。"],["王委員世堅：所以我是要告訴你：第一點，我們政府……我先前質詢之後，人家財政部已經積極去推動乙類公債，要把我們在海外的壽險資金引回臺灣，加速臺灣的公共建設；第二點，金管會也通過不動產證券化（REITS），這個條例已經通過要這麼做，也是引進民間資金。當有這兩大民間資金的來源挹注到國內建設的時候，我相信我們的GDP會更樂觀。更樂觀的結果，我們就不必發現金，不是嗎？那次是因為疫情導致GDP下降，所以政府才發放現金嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以你講的刪減預算影響到GDP，導致政府支出下滑影響GDP，第一個，我認為那個是微乎其微。第二個，你的下滑正印證需要發現金了嘛，不是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是。"],["王委員世堅：我希望主計總處不必做任何遮掩，你不必為任何已經既定的方向……不必！你就據實以告，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：因為我看你的個性也是一個很坦然的人，我看你先前在做事也是這樣嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是！謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：我們就正大光明、坦坦然然地面對事實證據，還有數據，我希望這個數據不要再那麼離譜，可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，我們儘量努力。"],["王委員世堅：你去看一下，前年底你就講3.35%，後來你也一直修正，結果最後4.59%，差了1.24%，這個不可謂不大。","今天早上如果這些媒體的報導是曲解的話，我希望待會休息之後你就跟這些媒體溝通，希望他們收回這樣的報導，因為事實上沒有這樣的一回事說：確定了！就是要發放了，就是已經作業中，然後9月要發放。這是給我們社會不必要的、莫名其妙額外的一種期待，不必要這麼做，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["王委員世堅：主計總處的任務就是實話實說，精準的數據掌握跟分析，然後忠實的向社會大眾報告，做出應有的政府決策，可不可以？好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：主計長，送你4個字：「任重道遠」。"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員的質詢。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等26人、委員林德福等20人、委員賴士葆等20人分別擬具「預\n算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1143101_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}