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12:29:39","會議時間":"2025-03-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等26人、委員林德福等20人、委員賴士葆等20人分別擬具「預算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案」等3案。\n【3月24日及26日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.5153437499999995,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.08846875,"end":10.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.695968750000002,"end":11.387843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.05346875,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.08721875,"end":18.559718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.559718750000002,"end":18.711593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.711593750000002,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.032218750000002,"end":19.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.11659375,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.25159375,"end":19.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.47096875,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.63096875,"end":26.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.33471875,"end":30.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.38471875,"end":33.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.10159375,"end":36.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.392218750000005,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.96596875,"end":38.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.24846875,"end":40.446593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.729093750000004,"end":43.298468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.32784375,"end":45.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.66096875,"end":46.875968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.736593750000004,"end":49.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.49159375,"end":51.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.44909375,"end":52.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.06909375,"end":54.807218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.330343750000004,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.39721875,"end":60.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.78096875000001,"end":63.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.548468750000005,"end":64.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.50596875000001,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.14284375,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.43784375,"end":71.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.96909375,"end":72.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.84659375000001,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.14159375,"end":75.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.60971875,"end":77.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.29721875,"end":79.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.56284375,"end":80.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.14471875000001,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.35971875,"end":84.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.05971875,"end":87.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.29159375,"end":88.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.28284375000001,"end":90.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.67909375,"end":93.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.39596875000001,"end":95.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.72471875000001,"end":98.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.88034375000001,"end":101.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.52971875,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.65159375,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.18284375,"end":113.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.47721875,"end":115.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.41784375,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.14284375000001,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.93159375,"end":124.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.85534375,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.77909375,"end":127.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.33596875,"end":128.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.11221875,"end":129.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.66471875000002,"end":130.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.41971875000002,"end":132.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.91721875000002,"end":135.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.46971875,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.49034375000002,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.42659375,"end":142.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.33346875,"end":145.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.18534375000002,"end":149.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.96534375000002,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.15096875,"end":152.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.50909375,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPE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用掉多少錢我們沒有 我也沒有請司機在啊我們都自己坐車啊我們都沒有用我們沒有用行政院的錢啊 沒有沒有用行政業績沒有用行政業績你看來 我給你看那張圖這個上面有多少是行政部門的人你看一下在那裡一張畫你啊"},{"start":76.836,"end":103.719,"text":"陳金德啊 駱惠主委 彭隨正啊你出門沒有維安人員嗎沒有司機嗎 沒有交通費嗎沒有發行政部門的這個錢嗎我昨天天看你還上台講話你的談餐誰寫的民進黨給你寫的 還是你的母娘給你寫的民進黨還提供你談餐嗎沒有 這我自己寫的"},{"start":105.697,"end":132.324,"text":"喔 主席長會貪財自己寫這不是謊話 就是真的是一個很親民的主席長人民會判斷 會判斷啦今天我們執行重點是不要拿人民的納稅錢去辦民進黨的這個大罷免民進黨你要大罷免你有自己的錢啊不要寄生在行政部門主席長 你們部會首長責任很重大你們有很多事情要做"},{"start":133.956,"end":151.163,"text":"你如果說下鄉去當初我們在討論這個事情了專稅改專稅改你們不只創了中華民國的這個首例也是全世界的首例國會跟立法院本來就監督行政部門預算結果你們現在反過來下鄉去"},{"start":153.647,"end":173.778,"text":"這全世界 大概是世界奇蹟行政部門在監督立法院 國會議員審查預算 還大造謠這已經變成一個世界奇蹟了現在更嚴重的你們大半的時間上去的人都在講大罷免你們有發現在整個社會被你們搞得對立整個台灣現在是失業了嗎所有人"},{"start":179.318,"end":202.024,"text":"我們明確的要求,第一,我剛才跟你講一個第一重點,你們是國家的重臣,你們是要為國家謀福利的,你每分錢都是民脂民膏,你娘是我的心碎喔,每分錢都非常重要喔,不管是你的,你看議定要出來,有多少維安人員要動,警察多少人要動,那個場合要動用到多少錢,那個都是國家的錢耶,"},{"start":204.269,"end":214.755,"text":"所以不要又動用我們的資源人民的納稅錢包括剛才剛才說的行政院長或者是每個部委首長去你們談判當然是你幕僚寫的啊來我來請教新規定來新規定啊這種議審這種議審夠得了你審計部嗎這說明總預算"},{"start":229.96,"end":257.575,"text":"那去推動這個大罷免,這些人這花的錢,每分錢,夠得了你審計部嗎?剛剛主計長講,他們每個人都是自己付的費用如果是公家的,我們會了解一下,大概他的這個工作是屬於黨的工作,還是屬於公務的工作,我們會做一個了解"},{"start":257.915,"end":285.601,"text":"所以到時候你要清清楚楚 要查清楚喔到底是用他們自己的錢 還是用公家的錢第二個我剛講更直接了你光是出去維安的人臉那個人事費跟那些動用的錢不是我們人民的民脂民膏嗎 我這有清楚嗎為了你推動大罷免你說你自己沒錢錢出來 老實講我是我剛講的 光是談餐這部分光是維安人臉 這個怎麼不是動用到我們人民的錢好不好 另外"},{"start":287.068,"end":294.195,"text":"現在你們在推動這個大罷免大概用到人民的這個納稅錢多少那個錢要從哪邊來預算科目是什麼要從哪邊去找這個錢出來讓他們辦這個大罷免"},{"start":299.347,"end":318.185,"text":"報告委員我沒有推動大罷免我只是針對我的政策做宣講而已其他我都沒有設法我講到時候要投票啦現在中選會應該沒有這筆錢嘛對不對本來編的沒有這一筆嘛對不對這筆錢要出他目前沒有提出來啦對啊 創案要開始投票要出錢第二億八千對不對這個部分到時候來看來"},{"start":323.342,"end":339.014,"text":"我們到時候再來看 看他的 主委長你有責任啦 至少他可能要12億啊 那個是第二億倍金喔 那是我們救命錢喔好不好 所以當然最理想了以長生為戀 趕快踩煞車 不要再推這個違法而且造成人民的納稅錢被亂花的這個大罷免 謝謝現在請吳世耀委員發言"},{"start":352.455,"end":355.673,"text":"谢谢主席有请主席长也请财政部的阮次长"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1138,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時23分）請主計長跟審計長。"],["主席：請主計長、審計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：兩位好。主計長，你們行政院下鄉的宣講，現在連演都不演了，本來說要去說明總預算，現在變成什麼？都在推動大罷免！王義川在那裡高歌推動大罷免，整群人我看大半時間都在推大罷免，你們怎麼用人民的納稅錢去辦民進黨的大罷免呢？這符合預算規定嗎？先讓主計長說，來，我先問主計長，你們現在下鄉用哪一個科目？用掉多少錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們沒有！我也沒有請司機載，我們都自己坐車，我們都沒有用行政院的錢，沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有用行政院的錢？來，我給你看一張圖，這上面有多少是行政部門的人？你看一下，除了院長、你、陳金德，還有陸委會主委邱垂正啊！你們出門沒有維安人員嗎？沒有司機嗎？沒有交通費嗎？沒有花行政部門的錢嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：我前天看你還上臺講話，你的談參是誰寫的？是民進黨幫你寫的，還是你的幕僚幫你寫的？民進黨還提供你談參嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，這我自己寫的。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長的談參是自己寫的？這如果不是謊話，就是真的是一個很親民的主計長，但人民會判斷啦！今天我的質詢重點是：不要拿人民的納稅錢去辦民進黨的大罷免！民進黨要大罷免，用自己的錢啊！不要寄生在行政部門。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，你們部會首長責任很重大，你們有很多事情要做，你如果下鄉去，當初我們已經在討論這個事情了……你們不只創了中華民國的首例，也是全世界的首例！國會、立法院本來就是監督行政部門的預算，結果你們現在反過來下鄉去，這大概是世界奇蹟！行政部門在監督立法院國會議員審查預算，還大造謠！這已經變成一個世界奇蹟了！現在更嚴重的是，你們大半時間上去的人都在講大罷免，你沒有發現現在整個社會被你們搞得對立，整個臺灣現在是撕裂的嗎？","主計長，我很明確的要求：第一個，我剛才跟你說的第一個重點，你們是國家的重臣，你們要為國家謀福利，你的每一分錢都是民脂民膏，你領的是我們給的薪水，每一分錢都非常重要！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你看院長要出去、你們要出去，有多少維安人員要動？警察有多少人要動？那個場合要動用到多少錢？那個都是國家的錢耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我都用我自己的錢。"],["張委員啓楷：所以不要動用我們的資源、人民的納稅錢，包括剛才說的，行政院長或者是每個部會首長去，你們的談參當然是你們幕僚寫的啊！","我請教審計長，這種預算過得了你審計部嗎？假藉說明總預算去推動大罷免，這些人花的每分錢過得了你審計部嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：剛剛主計長講了，他們每個人都是自己付費，如果是公家的，我們會了解一下他做這個工作是是屬於黨的工作，還是屬於公務的工作？我們會做一個了解。"],["張委員啓楷：所以到時候你要清清楚楚地查清楚喔！到底是用他們自己的錢，還是用公家的錢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，我剛剛講得更直接了，你光是出去，維安人員的人事費跟那些動用的錢，不是我們人民的民脂民膏嗎？我這樣講清楚嗎？為了推動大罷免，你說你們沒掏錢出來，老實講，我剛剛講了，光是談參這部分、光是維安人員，這個怎麼不是動用到我們人民的錢，好不好？另外，主計長，我請教你一下，現在你們在推動大罷免，大概用掉多少人民的納稅錢？那筆錢要從哪邊來？預算科目是什麼？要從哪邊去找這筆錢出來讓他們辦大罷免？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我沒有推動大罷免，我只是針對我的政策做宣講而已，其他我都沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：不是，我是說到時候如果要投票啦！目前中選會應該沒有這筆錢嘛，對不對？因為本來並沒有編列這一筆預算，這個費用要從哪裡來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前沒有提出來啊！"],["張委員啓楷：罷免成案以後，如果要投票，要去哪裡找這筆錢？第二預備金，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們到時候再看，他們目前都還沒有提出來。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，你有責任啊！至少可能要12億，那個是第二預備金，是我們的就命錢喔！好不好？當然最理想……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：要以蒼生為念，趕快踩煞車，不要再推這個違法且會造成人民納稅錢被亂花的大罷免！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等26人、委員林德福等20人、委員賴士葆等20人分別擬具「預\n算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1143101_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}