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12:52:12","會議時間":"2025-03-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等26人、委員林德福等20人、委員賴士葆等20人分別擬具「預算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案」等3案。\n【3月24日及26日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.63846875,"end":3.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.127218750000001,"end":5.970968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.87346875,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.78471875,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.602843750000002,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.69096875,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.715968750000002,"end":17.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.610343750000002,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.65221875,"end":21.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.05284375,"end":23.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.11159375,"end":27.570968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.144718750000003,"end":35.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.65409375,"end":36.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.42596875,"end":39.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.041593750000004,"end":41.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.64034375,"end":43.838468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.61471875,"end":46.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.66909375,"end":49.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.77846875,"end":51.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.65159375,"end":56.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.752218750000004,"end":60.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.844718750000006,"end":58.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.20721875,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.53534375000001,"end":68.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.18471875,"end":81.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.47784375,"end":95.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.48846875000001,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.64409375000001,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.55096875000001,"end":102.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.39034375,"end":103.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.96409375,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.15346875,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.75034375000001,"end":122.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.85534375,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.01034375,"end":132.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.37721875,"end":135.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.87471875,"end":137.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.96721875,"end":138.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.43534375000002,"end":141.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.62471875,"end":143.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.58221875,"end":149.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.99909375000001,"end":152.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.26846875,"end":155.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.55096875,"end":157.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.33534375000002,"end":159.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.68534375000002,"end":161.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.81159375000001,"end":164.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.64659375000002,"end":166.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.87409375000001,"end":168.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.32534375,"end":169.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.67534375000002,"end":170.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.34596875,"end":171.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.97034375,"end":173.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.96159375000002,"end":175.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.10471875000002,"end":176.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.61096875,"end":177.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.43784375,"end":179.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.03659375,"end":181.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.60159375,"end":185.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.61784375000002,"end":188.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.71034375000002,"end":191.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.62971875000002,"end":196.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.84409375,"end":198.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.18971875000003,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.61971875,"end":218.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.72659375,"end":225.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.95346875,"end":227.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.56909375,"end":230.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.71221875,"end":233.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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各位委員 有請主席長委員好主席長好 辛苦了這個是3月23號在花蓮的一個媒體就是這樣寫主席長 媒體就這樣寫"},{"start":24.161,"end":42.716,"text":"主計長陳淑芝也都到場助長除強調中央被煽動的預算也要大家罷免國民黨立法院總召傅坤祺所以這個部分這是民進黨去辦的所以身為主計長你應該去評估"},{"start":44.639,"end":67.7,"text":"你現在已經是成為中華民國的主席長第一個去參加政黨辦的一個宣講所以要審慎報告委員 我們是針對政策來宣講其他語言大部分我們也不會聽沒有錯 但是這個畢竟是一個政黨的場合我是建議你了好 我們看今天的議題"},{"start":69.261,"end":80.824,"text":"今年全國實增進額大於付稅預算的情形從2010年一直到2023年尤其是這幾年都超增稅收"},{"start":83.55,"end":98.511,"text":"所以今天特別審查這個預算法的修正,希望修法明定,法定付稅,收入實徵數大於預算數三千億以上,政府應還稅一名,普發現金。"},{"start":99.693,"end":122.37,"text":"那如果這個法例通過以後就不必再這個還要去另外訂一個特別條例那到時候看要用最佳預算的方式還是什麼多很多的一個途徑所以這個部分呢希望這個政府部門主計總署和財政部能夠支持好我們看這個"},{"start":125.712,"end":152.42,"text":"電價審議委員會最近要審議要漲電價大家都很擔心因為這幾年連續漲了四次但是事實上如果我們以總統府賴總統親自聘任的氣候變遷委員會副召集人童子賢 何壽董事長他說核電可以年省N個千億"},{"start":154.278,"end":181.112,"text":"N個千億如果按照他的說法是15個千億所以這個部分是一個能源政策的問題所以主席總署也應該提供給台電提供給經濟部相關的這些意見所以這個部分到底我們很擔心呢人民都很擔心所以如果從法律面來看從法律面的話"},{"start":182.659,"end":200.386,"text":"法例離島建設條例第十四條有規定,撥補給台電,因為省金門、馬祖、澎湖離島、蘭嶼還有立島,這些應該由政府、中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":202.087,"end":227.225,"text":"編列預算也就是經濟部應該編列預算撥補所以從這邊來去處理而不要再去漲漲電價到時候如果經濟部或是主席總書也可以去協調這個經濟部來照這個法例好我們接下來談這個原住民委員會編列的基本設施維持費跟主席講說明"},{"start":228.858,"end":238.407,"text":"這個基本設施維持費是我在園民會服務的時候我去協調當時的主計總署行政院主計總署"},{"start":240.066,"end":259.589,"text":"那時候是張俊雄當任行政院院長的時候要編列這個基本設施維持費謝謝當時的主計總署同意編列就開始編列了這個是一個最基本的原鄉很需要的所以它相關的經費額度都有"},{"start":260.65,"end":279.056,"text":"已經一百一十四年度來講,編列了六億四千萬元。這個已經立法院通過了,沒有刪,也沒有凍結。現在為什麼要談這個呢?現在是不是要請主席長、主席總書要跟人民會講,不應該發這樣的文啊。"},{"start":282.268,"end":304.026,"text":"去年的時候 大家都知道會行文給各縣市 鄉鎮你要先義為編列預算你要編多少 去年就已經分配了結果2月27號 延命會竟然發文給各鄉鎮各鄉鎮就覺得 延鄉就覺得很奇怪怎麼會被砍了50%啊"},{"start":308.487,"end":313.126,"text":"事實上基本設施維持費第一個沒有刪減"},{"start":314.605,"end":332.889,"text":"沒有凍結所以這個部分的協調主席總署趕快請主席總署趕快協調嚴密會趕快發文好不好好謝謝主席長可以嗎這個部分是院長有發布院長有發布說是要凍結計劃型補助50%那這個部分是因為我們有一個3.636的這個部分所以這個部分我們是需要再協調這個部分到底是要怎麼三減是這樣子"},{"start":344.332,"end":344.512,"text":"這個並沒有凍結"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1247,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時46分）主席、各位委員。有請主計長。"],["主席：陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主計長好，辛苦了。這個是3月23號花蓮的一個媒體的報導，主計長，媒體就是這樣寫：主計長陳淑姿也都到場助講，除強調中央被刪凍的預算，也要大家罷免國民黨立法院總召傅崐萁。關於這個部分，這是民進黨去辦的，身為主計長，你應該去評估，你現在已經成為中華民國第一個去參加政黨辦的宣講的主計長，所以要審慎，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我們是針對政策來宣講。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，但是……"],["陳主計長淑姿：其他語言大部分我們也不會……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有錯，但是這畢竟是一個政黨的場合，我是建議你啦。好，我們來看今天的議題。近年全國實徵淨額大於賦稅預算數的情形，從2010年一直到2023年，尤其是這幾年都超徵稅收，所以今天特別審查預算法的修正，希望修法明定法定賦稅收入實徵數大於預算數3,000億以上，政府應還稅於民、普發現金。如果這個法律通過，以後就不必再另外訂一個特別條例，到時候看是要用追加預算的方式還是什麼，有很多途徑，這個部分希望政府部門、主計總處或財政部能夠支持。","此外，電價審議委員會最近要審議漲電價，大家都很擔心，因為這幾年連續漲了4次。但是事實上，總統府賴總統親自聘任的氣候變遷委員會副召集人、和碩董事長童子賢，他說核電可以年省N個千億。如果按照他的說法是15個千億，所以這個部分是一個能源政策的問題，主計總處也應該提供給台電，提供給經濟部相關的這些意見。這個部分我們很擔心，人民都很擔心。從法律面來看，法律離島建設條例第十四條有規定撥補給台電，因為金門、馬祖、澎湖等離島、蘭嶼還有綠島，這些應該由政府中央目的事業主管機關編列預算，也就是經濟部應該編列預算撥補，所以從這邊來處理，而不要再去漲電價，到時候經濟部或是主計總處也可以協調經濟部照這個法律去做。","我們接下來談原住民族委員會編列的基本設施維持費。跟主計長說明，基本設施維持費是我在原民會服務的時候，去協調當時的主計總處──行政院主計總處，那時候是張俊雄擔任行政院院長的時候，要編列基本設施維持費。謝謝當時的主計總處同意編列，就開始編列了。這是最基本的，是原鄉很需要的，所以相關的經費額度都有。以114年度來講，編列了六億四千萬元，立法院已經通過了，沒有刪，也沒有凍結，現在為什麼要談這個呢？現在是不是要請主計總處跟原民會講，不應該發這樣的文？去年的時候大家都知道會行文給各縣市、鄉鎮，要先預為編列預算，要編多少，去年就已經分配了，結果2月27號原民會竟然發文給各鄉鎮，各鄉鎮原鄉就覺得很奇怪，怎麼會被砍了50%？事實上，基本設施維持費，第一個沒有刪減、沒有凍結！所以這個部分請主計總處趕快協調原民會，趕快發文好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主計長？"],["主席：可以吧？簡答就好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有刪、沒有凍結。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分院長有發布說是要凍結計畫型補助50%，這個部分是因為我們有一個刪減636億的部分，所以這個部分我們需要再協調，這個部分到底是要怎麼刪減，是這樣子。"],["主席：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是，這個並沒有凍結、並沒有刪減，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝，私底下再說明好了。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","陳培瑜、陳培瑜、陳培瑜委員不在。","葉元之委員請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等26人、委員林德福等20人、委員賴士葆等20人分別擬具「預\n算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1143101_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}