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10:12:28","會議時間":"2025-03-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「電業法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員林岱樺等18人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「電業法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":1.8703437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.629093750000001,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.559718750000002,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.032218750000002,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.52159375,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.67721875,"end":23.774093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.81221875,"end":22.829093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.774093750000002,"end":23.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.90909375,"end":23.976593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.976593750000003,"end":23.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.292843750000003,"end":26.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.86221875,"end":27.570968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.37159375,"end":49.221593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.33971875,"end":51.938468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.900343750000005,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.62159375,"end":57.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.60846875,"end":57.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.21596875,"end":66.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.080343750000004,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.77221875,"end":68.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.30721875,"end":81.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.47159375000001,"end":72.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.49971875,"end":89.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.90409375,"end":83.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.70971875000001,"end":85.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.60409375,"end":85.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.72221875000001,"end":86.81909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.30846875,"end":91.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.43846875000001,"end":96.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.80909375,"end":98.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.59784375000001,"end":98.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.64846875,"end":98.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.74971875,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.96409375,"end":104.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.95971875000001,"end":106.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.82034375,"end":105.93846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.76534375,"end":108.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.79034375,"end":114.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.57846875000001,"end":131.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.08721875,"end":132.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.48284375,"end":156.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.98909375,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.62659375,"end":160.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.76096875000002,"end":167.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.61284375000002,"end":172.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.87721875,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.97846875000002,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.55534375000002,"end":181.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.02784375000002,"end":187.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.98971875,"end":183.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.03534375,"end":193.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.17846875,"end":205.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.34909375,"end":210.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.27659375000002,"end":210.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.76596875,"end":211.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.79971875,"end":219.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.33034375000003,"end":217.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.97159375,"end":226.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.56971875000002,"end":226.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.83096875,"end":226.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.84784375,"end":226.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.88159375,"end":227.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.31596875000002,"end":242.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.33471875,"end":246.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.81096875000003,"end":257.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.29971875,"end":251.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.70471875,"end":252.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.13909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你這句話我就想要等你這句話就是時空背景不一樣我們現在台灣面臨的要漲電價然後要等於是所有的民生物價都要漲"},{"start":319.139,"end":329.261,"text":"這是小老百姓的痛苦耶現在的時空背景是不是也跟以前不一樣呢以前電價便宜啊現在電價貴啊所以既然電業法當初說要拆分現在決定不拆分那是不是你們過去說要不要核能現在為了我們民生電價要穩定也可以改用核能啦對不對報告委員20年前民生的電價比現在還便宜"},{"start":348.894,"end":349.474,"text":"現在的電價比20年前的電價要便宜"},{"start":360.611,"end":386.192,"text":"330度以下但是你現在還是要漲它呀你現在還是要漲它不是嗎所以成本已經變那麼多啦所以你要降成本啊你核能最便宜你不用到底是什麼原因嘛法令 法令規定嘛所以我問你一個問題剛才很多委員問你問你說假設修法你支持本席就問你一句嘛假設修法你支持嘛"},{"start":388.085,"end":396.293,"text":"修法你支持嗎我也想要知道你的態度啊我們尊重大院的決定我就覺得這個是你打臉自己你知道嗎當初2017年我們電業法也修過了啊立法院也修過了啊你們到現在也是要翻盤啊是不是所以這是可以調整的你的立場非常重要"},{"start":410.466,"end":410.627,"text":"謝謝委員指導"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":336,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時5分）主席，雖然我們是四分鐘加一分鐘，但每個人都講十分鐘，下次就乾脆八分鐘好了，謝謝。","主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，今天雖然是審電業法，但我想朝野所有委員大家最關心的就是要不要漲電價這件事情。本席想請問部長，如果加上這一次，這三年來是第幾次漲電價了，您知道嗎？您記得嗎？從2022年到現在。"],["郭部長智輝：有確定這次會漲電價嗎？"],["張委員嘉郡：報紙都在寫，還是你支持凍漲？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：我先問一下，部長支持凍漲嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們不是看報紙在做行政的……"],["張委員嘉郡：是！電價審議委員會28日即將舉行，這是不是……部長的態度呢？今天部長的態度是告訴我們，你支持凍漲嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我已經報告過非常多次，電價是電價審議委員會所決定的……"],["張委員嘉郡：我先問你，從2022到現在，已經漲了幾次了？"],["郭部長智輝：從過去到現在，我的任內是兩次。"],["張委員嘉郡：反正總共是四次了。"],["郭部長智輝：四次是別人任內，你問我幾次，在我的任內我的印象只有兩次。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席再問你一個問題。假設二十八號真的漲了，就像現在報章、媒體、各大報都說，民生漲11%，總體6%。這幾次加起來，你知道漲多少percent嗎？漲多少？我算給你聽……"],["郭部長智輝：別人漲80%，我們到目前才漲40%……"],["張委員嘉郡：好，你先看一下。漲了48.9%！假設原本電費是一千塊一個月，現在要改繳一千五百塊一個月。本席要提醒部長，現在收到的消息是，連最基本的一百二十度以下的住宅用電都不放過，是不是？您的態度呢？我就問您的態度，一百二十度以下的住宅用電要不要放過？"],["郭部長智輝：有誰他們家用電可以用二十度以下……"],["張委員嘉郡：一百二十度！是一百二十度，不是二十度！所以我想請問部長，48.9%是將近一半，這是鋪天蓋地的大幅度！"],["郭部長智輝：一百二十度的電費只有1.68元，一度。"],["張委員嘉郡：錢啊！都是錢啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我的成本每一度電……"],["張委員嘉郡：你的成本你要講啊，你又不用核電，對不對？況且5月之後就全部沒有了，本來最便宜的1.41元的核電沒有了！再講到今天……"],["郭部長智輝：核電占所有發電不到10%……"],["張委員嘉郡：本席做一個建議，是不是三百三十一度以下的民生用電不要漲？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是部長可以裁示一下？"],["郭部長智輝：發電只是其中的一部分，其實輸配電成本是很驚人的，你想一下……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，你一直說韓國，還說如果跟韓國電價一樣台電就不會賠錢。但你要知道，韓國基本薪資比我們多1.46倍，按照平均物價指數來看，你這樣講不合理的，所以不能只拿韓國來比。"],["郭部長智輝：我非常希望能夠跟您討論經濟的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：韓國現在還有百分之二十幾的核電，你怎麼不學呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這個才是我的本業。報告委員，我們來討論經濟的問題，我非常高興能夠……"],["張委員嘉郡：我再問你電業法。2017年民進黨修法要求台電在2025年前完成發電、輸配電、售電分離然後促進市場競爭，但這一次要再修回來，我也支持，以維持它的整體性，可是呢，我就不能理解，為什麼當初要拆的時候說得這麼冠冕堂皇，今天又不要拆？既然是這樣子的話，當初的決定是不是不專業？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我20年前是拿Nokia的手機，現在拿的是iPhone 16……"],["張委員嘉郡：當初鐵了心要把它拆掉……"],["郭部長智輝：因為二者是不一樣的情境嘛。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，你這句話，我就想要等你這句話，你說是因為時空背景不一樣，現在臺灣面臨的是要漲電價，等於是所有的民生物價都要漲，這是小老百姓的痛苦耶，現在的時空背景是不是也跟以前不一樣呢？以前電價便宜，現在電價貴啊！既然電業法當初說要拆分，現在決定不拆分，那是不是你們過去說不要核能，現在為了我們民生電價要穩定，也可以改用核能，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，20年前民生的電價比現在還便宜。"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊，當然啦，所以你是不是應該要能夠重啟核能？"],["郭部長智輝：現在的電價比20年前的電價要便宜啊。"],["張委員嘉郡：330度以下，但是你現在還是要漲它呀！你現在還是要漲它，不是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：成本已經變那麼多啦。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你要降成本啊！核能最便宜你不用，到底是什麼原因嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：法令，法令規定嘛！法令如果在大院裡面可以解開，我們非常願意尊重大院的決定……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以我問你一個問題，本席就問你一句嘛，假設修法你支不支持，本席就問你一句，假設修法你支持嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：修法你支持嗎？我也想要知道你的態度啊。"],["郭部長智輝：我們尊重立法院，我們尊重大院的決定。"],["張委員嘉郡：我就覺得這個是你打臉你自己，你知道嗎？當初2017年電業法我們也修過，立法院也修過了啊，你們到現在還是要翻盤啊，是不是？所以這是可以調整的，你的立場非常重要。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您剛才所說的，與時俱進嘛，法令也應該是與時俱進。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們會與時俱進，那你這邊也要提出你的版本、你的態度啊！我們都希望支持，就是你如果是支持核能可以重啟的話，那大家一起來嘛，朝野大家一起來，讓我們全臺灣用便宜的電啊，好嗎？謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：好，張委員也是一樣說到欲罷不能，不過等一下審議的時候還可以再講，等一下我們處理條文時還可以再講。","下一位請呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-4","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","陳超明","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","陳培瑜","黃國昌","葉元之","林德福","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「電業法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員賴士葆等 17 人擬具\n「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員林岱樺等18人擬具「電業法第六條條文修\n正草案」案；四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員\n邱議瑩等16人擬具「電業法第六條條文修正草案」案；六、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「電業法\n部分條文修正草案」案；七、本院委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「電業法第七十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}