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幾個先進我們柯總統在這裡"},{"start":26.516,"end":29.422,"text":"我就先請我們的主計長好不好 陳主計長好 主計長 陳主計長來"},{"start":35.949,"end":59.074,"text":"這剛才老柯好不容易今天大駕光臨說買票那你在罵蔡英文蔡英文上一次就發六千塊你在罵蔡英文現在越來越大罵蔡英文還有剛才吳秉瑞委員不斷地強調一直在講我所以我一定要回一下這裡面不要忘了他裡面都講錯"},{"start":66.194,"end":81.181,"text":"今天卓榮特院長提總預算的預算案是有詢答的不是直接表決 真言說真話不要這樣子講喔 不要只是惡鬥而已喔"},{"start":83.942,"end":85.203,"text":"我請教主計總署的主計長"},{"start":107.948,"end":112.99,"text":"3月21號 電價審議委員會 破天荒啦家庭用戶跟小店家11%產業5% 平均是6% 央行總裁說本來是8%啦我請問你 請問你啦 組織組織有派人去嗎"},{"start":130.484,"end":141.575,"text":"這個電駕審議委員會有沒有派人去?有沒有?時間快了,我出局了你不知道喔?沒有確定喔?確定喔?這時間暫停一下啦,都在錄你有去嗎?"},{"start":150.154,"end":161.299,"text":"有派我們有的承辦員去他們有派人啊這足距種族怎麼會沒有派人去啊為什麼長小戶放大戶呢這個東西啊大家都知道這個結果一查出來就是司馬懿啊講的啦這個司馬昭智興啊 路人皆知啊"},{"start":176.036,"end":197.094,"text":"是什麼 為了大罷免 天才火啊 你看 普羅大眾 把你氣成這樣 帳要算在野黨的啦就是這樣而已 就這樣子而已 你也不要講他不要講我 因為這個審議委員會不是你決定的 你也沒有去啊 你給我去"},{"start":198.255,"end":202.656,"text":"我跟委員 你也沒去我沒去 但是我要跟委員說這是會前會而來沒有去不要講話沒有去就不要講話這個很清楚就是行政院他的遙控"},{"start":218.623,"end":241.937,"text":"因為我們不給他補貼一千億喔所以呢我就張你們架讓你們去找南北的立委來算帳再說 主席長我們過去補貼台電三千億啊你仔細聽啊 你不要看那個仔細聽我講補了三千億 四年漲五次啊"},{"start":243.829,"end":268.226,"text":"我公開質詢郭志輝我說我給你一千億是不是你就不漲價他不承諾啊 照漲啊給了三千億給了三千億四年漲五次最近漲的是去年十月到現在不到一年 又要漲又要漲 更加凸顯我們今天案子的重要性"},{"start":269.878,"end":288.885,"text":"既然你都一直要欺負老百姓那個補1000億也是老百姓的錢那不是天上掉下來也不是大風刮來的是我們的納稅的錢補台電錯誤的人員政策核電一度1.4塊錢不用要用4塊錢、5塊錢、6塊錢的光電、風電沒有認真cost down"},{"start":297.745,"end":311.951,"text":"四年漲五次這幾年我們給了三千億每年漲啊這是一個漲價內閣啊所以我們主席講貪污內閣主席講得很接近了"},{"start":314.245,"end":328.041,"text":"這個 更加凸顯普發現金的重要老百姓不要人老 又企業企到這樣以前買一個 下次買半個所以普發現金給大家交電費就是這樣而已"},{"start":330.294,"end":354.931,"text":"你現在可以講一下 講差不多三十秒 我跟委員報告我們主要是在彌補他對民生電價他以前年度他沒有漲價的這一個部分那這一個部分估計起來也將近漲價不是你漲的啊你一直維持民生電價的部分沒有漲那這一個部分漲到十一趴 要漲十一趴他是後來漲三次 但是前面的部分"},{"start":356.772,"end":379.644,"text":"他總共有2800億左右的一個部分他都沒有彌平所以後來我們編追加再追加為什麼他不用核電一度童子田都說我們一年用3000億度電如果通通改成核電就省3000億當然不可能通通要核電差不多學者都說20%20%就是600億度電一度省一塊錢不只一塊錢喔"},{"start":385.347,"end":401.582,"text":"一度省3塊錢就1000多億就出來了啊我根本不需要補貼啊改成核電就有了啊你現在1.4那你風電、光電4塊錢以上我一度差3塊錢啊我就1000多億就有了啊"},{"start":402.944,"end":423.59,"text":"對不對 現在修法 蔡英文給你弄好了美國壓力來了 美國爸爸還說叫我們用核電為什麼不順勢去走下去就都改觀 不要補一千億 也不要漲價我們立法院還做了決議 所以不可以漲價咧你們照常啊"},{"start":425.43,"end":453.129,"text":"市民力如霧啊就這樣啊這是你都沒有回答啦但是我是跟你講清楚我是跟你講清楚你要聽進去你告訴主委院長這個代表普發現金來繳電費太重要了真的老百姓不要懶惰啦我們再看啊主席人數主席長來我們現在總預算開始又沒有新的 新公佈的總預算"},{"start":455.417,"end":472.721,"text":"是有公告了是不是開始可以使用了對 已經開始用了那軍公教條新是不是開始調了軍公教條新是可以調了可以調了喔 確定喔這是你自己講的喔今年的預算比去年多了1368億"},{"start":475.996,"end":503.138,"text":"結果我們的院長 大院長還說總預算之外還是多了一千多億內政部多四百億 國防部多四百億國防部前幾天 顧立雄接受馬文君的質詢他說 海昆豪一毛錢都沒有刪對不對 還有呢 教育部多了三百億外務部多了三百零六億 這都你的數字啊"},{"start":504.201,"end":510.59,"text":"怎麼會說沒有錢呢怎麼會衛生紙沒有呢怎麼說廁所裡面的衛生紙給你炸呢怎麼會這樣子呢你自己講的陳組計長"},{"start":519.727,"end":547.264,"text":"你看 你就被我們的總委員長打臉來 你講是 因為我們增加了都是公共建設包括勞健保但是減的他都減在特定的項目譬如說減業務譬如說整個集團減到為0我們現在就來講一個東西什麼補救 你總是要有個補救對不對可以不可以追加給女生可以不可以追加給女生"},{"start":547.904,"end":567.154,"text":"可以追加檢預算 但是時間來不及因為追加檢預算的話 如果通過的時候我們現在縱使3月要公佈以後才可以開始籌編公佈了 已經公佈了公佈開始籌編 但是要有作業的時間那送到貴會來審查 通過的時候就將近6月將近6月沒關係 開業一位"},{"start":569.435,"end":588.601,"text":"我們研會也要幫你審啊沒有問題啊但是這段時間沒有錢支出啊這段時間有的主要都沒有錢捏有的撿到領的他完全隨時會付不出來除了監察院以外啦其他沒有啦還有還有黨產會啊這些都有撿到領的那你就撿到領就用第二倍金可以不"},{"start":589.381,"end":603.988,"text":"第二億北京還要報立法院所以我問你喔因為我時間快到了齁我今天在不太有時間第一個可以用追加減預算可以用第二億北京來解決你講的問題對吧"},{"start":606.409,"end":629.506,"text":"但是跟委員報告有追加減預算有追加減預算的條件第二預備金可以嗎第二預備金只能針對部分的執行有困難的部分執行有困難已經不講了嗎這個部分也必須要報到院裡面來讓院裡面報我請問那個中選會那個他現在都行政院的第二預備金那個可以嗎對不對"},{"start":632.261,"end":657.568,"text":"啊 錯誤的戰爭是比貪汙一百倍可怕我剛剛是這樣子你時間怎麼這麼快 你給我說一下齁那個 那個 主席長啊是有時候就跟你啊 好好的跟你講是我就問你第二一倍均PLUS追加減預算是不是可以解你的問題 是不是呃 呃可以不可以可以不可以 你回答我 可以不可以"},{"start":658.669,"end":677.748,"text":"因為我們第二預備金以目前來講的話如果被刪減的那個部分要辦追加那個部分沒有辦法為什麼沒有辦法一切歸零啊就可以開始追加減了怎麼不可以呢"},{"start":679.311,"end":686.638,"text":"不是 歸零的追加減他會來不及可以啦請那個沈記長來一下沈記長來來來沈記長陳沈記長把事情釐清來 謝謝在國會殿堂要講真話喔沈記長你們這位副主記長可以不可以用"},{"start":705.063,"end":730.09,"text":"第二位北京來處理第二位北京 凍住第二位北京有四個條件好啦 現在我時間到不要講條件了齁我現在告訴你齁 主席長我是很失望你今天給我這樣答案啦因為你來找我的時候你就講兩個追加錢預算PLUS PLUS齁特別就是第二位北京我都跟你說"},{"start":731.922,"end":749.53,"text":"我絕對歡迎我都非常正面的回應結果今天來這裡 怎麼那麼矜持矜持 我覺得我對你的時候 沒想到我以前對你很尊敬來 我們讓神經長講一句話你對於現在人家講的人家講的那個陽光啊 兩千"},{"start":751.155,"end":776.47,"text":"你的鄰居有問題 你怎麼處理 陽廣 兩千筆的 這怎麼處理因為陽廣是財團法人 財團法人法 這個屬於文化部督導文化部要負責監督 你要不要查文化部已經移送檢調了 你可不可以查任何動用國家主義人 我都可以查所以 請問你什麼時候要去查"},{"start":777.21,"end":799.075,"text":"因為這個已經文化部委託會計書查過了但是你還是可以查啊我們會做一些了解我要求你去查可以嗎我們會 你有要求的話我們會進行了解好 什麼時候開始我們一個月你可以嗎因為我們整個一個月可以嗎一個月可以嗎"},{"start":805.825,"end":806.246,"text":"應該可以好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時59分）謝謝主席及各位先進。柯總召來這裡……算了。我就先請陳主計長，好不好？"],["主席：好，陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：老柯好不容易今天大駕光臨，說買票，你在罵蔡英文喔！蔡英文上一次就發6,000塊，你在罵蔡英文喔！現在越來越大，罵蔡英文喔！還有剛才吳秉叡委員不斷地強調，一直在講我，所以我一定要回應一下，他裡面都講錯，今天卓榮泰院長提總預算的預算案是有詢答的，不是直接表決，不要亂講，睜眼說瞎話！不要這樣子講，不要只是惡鬥而已！"],["柯委員建銘：違法啦！"],["賴委員士葆：違法、違憲都是你在說的，違老柯啦，老柯想當院長，一直來這裡亂，我講話，你安靜，你安靜，老柯安靜。"],["柯委員建銘：好啦……"],["賴委員士葆：zip！zip！你知不知道zip？拉鍊拉起來叫zip，老柯zip！","好，我請教主計總處的主計長，3月21號電價審議委員會破天荒，家庭用戶跟小店家是11%，產業5%，平均是6%，央行總裁說本來要漲8%。我請問你，主計總處有沒有派人去電價審議委員會？有沒有？快點，我時間馬上要到了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：你不知道喔？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：確定喔！確定喔！時間暫停一下。"],["主席：暫停、暫停。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有派人？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，我們有派我們的承辦員去。"],["賴委員士葆：當然有派人啊！主計總處怎麼會沒有派人去？為什麼漲小戶、放大戶呢？這個東西大家都知道，這個結果一查出來就是司馬昭之心，路人皆知，是什麼？為了大罷免添柴火啊！你看，漲普羅大眾11%，帳要算在野黨的啦，就是這樣而已。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：就這樣而已啊，你不要講話，不用講話的時候你就不要講話……"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["賴委員士葆：因為這個審議委員會不是你決定的，你也沒有去，你有去嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我跟委員說明……"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有去？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我沒去，但是我要跟委員說這是會前會而已。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有去不要講話，沒有去不要講話，你有去就給你講，沒有去就不要講。這個很清楚就是行政院的陽謀，說因為我們不給他補貼1,000億，所以就漲你們價，讓你們去找藍白的立委來算帳，結果主計長，我們過去補貼台電3,000億，你仔細聽，你不要看那個啦！仔細聽我講。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：補了3,000億，4年漲5次，我公開質詢郭智輝，我說我給你1,000億，是不是你就不漲價，他不承諾，照漲。給了3,000億，4年漲5次，最近漲的是去年10月，到現在不到1年又要漲，更加凸顯我們今天案子的重要性，既然你都一直要欺負老百姓，那個補1,000億也是老百姓的錢，那不是天上掉下來，也不是大風刮來的，是拿我們納稅人的錢補台電錯誤的能源政策，核電1度1.4塊錢不用，要用4塊錢、5塊錢、6塊錢的光電、風電，沒有認真cost down，4年漲5次，這幾年我們給了3,000億，每年漲！這是一個漲價內閣。"],["主席：貪污……"],["賴委員士葆：我們主席講貪污內閣，這是主席講的，也很接近了。更加凸顯普發現金的重要，老百姓「米甕弄鐃」，又漲價漲成這樣，以前買一個便當，現在只能買半個，所以普發現金給大家繳電費，就是這樣而已。你現在可以講一下，不要超過30秒。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我跟委員報告，我們主要是在彌補它以前年度對民生電價沒有漲價的部分，這個部分估計起來也將近都是……"],["賴委員士葆：漲價不是你漲的，你替台電背黑鍋。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，它一直維持民生電價的部分沒有漲，那這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：漲了11%，要漲11%啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，它是後來漲3次，但是前面……"],["賴委員士葆：漲11%啊，怎麼沒有呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它總共有2,800億左右的部分都沒有弭平，所以後來我們編2,000追加再追加……"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼它不用核電？童子賢都說我們一年用3,000億度電，如果通通改成核電就省3,000億，當然不可能通通用核電，學者都說20%，20%就是600億度電，1度省1塊錢，不只1塊錢，1度省3塊錢，一千多億就出來了，我根本不需要補貼，改成核電就有了，現在是1.4塊，風電、光電是4塊錢以上，1度差3塊錢，一千多億就有了啊，對不對？現在修法部分在野黨幫你弄好了，美國壓力來了，美國爸爸也叫我們用核電，為什麼不順勢就這樣去做，就都解決了？不要補1,000億，也不要漲價，我們立法院還做了決議說不可以漲價，你們照漲，視民意如無物，就這樣啊。這些你都不用回答，但我是跟你說清楚，你要聽進去，你告訴卓院長，這代表普發現金來繳電費太重要了，真的，老百姓「米甕弄鐃」。","我們再往下看，主計長，我們現在新公布的總預算開始用了沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，有公告了。"],["賴委員士葆：是不是開始可以使用了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，已經開始用了。"],["賴委員士葆：那軍公教調薪是不是開始調了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：軍公教調薪是可以調了。"],["賴委員士葆：可以調了，確定喔！這是你自己講的，今年的預算比去年多了1,368億，結果我們的大院長還說總預算窒礙難行，多了一千多億耶！內政部多400億，國防部多400億，前幾天國防部部長顧立雄接受馬文君的質詢還說海鯤號1毛錢都沒有刪；還有教育部多了300億，還有衛福部多了306億，這都是你們的數字，怎麼會說沒有錢呢？怎麼會沒有衛生紙呢？怎麼說廁所裡面的衛生紙要自己帶呢？怎麼會這樣子呢？你自己講的，你看，陳主計長，你看，你就被我們卓院長打臉……"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：來，你講。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們增加的都是公共建設，包括勞健保，但是減的都減在特定的項目，譬如說減業務費……"],["賴委員士葆：好，那我們現在就來講……"],["陳主計長淑姿：譬如說有的機關減到零……"],["賴委員士葆：我們現在就來講一個東西，怎麼補救？你總是要有個補救，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為這些減到零的機關現在已經執行困難了。"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以追加減預算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：可以追加減預算，但是時間來不及……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼叫來不及？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為追加減預算如果通過，縱使現在3月，要公布以後才可以開始籌編。"],["賴委員士葆：公布了，已經公布了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，公布開始籌備，但是要有作業的時間，要送到貴院來審查，通過的時候就將近6月……"],["賴委員士葆：將近6月沒關係，我們開院會，我們院會來幫你審，沒有問題啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是這段時間沒有錢支出啊。"],["賴委員士葆：這段時間有，怎麼會都沒有錢呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有的減到零的，它水電費完全付不出來。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦，除了監察院以外，其他沒有啦。"],["陳主計長淑姿：還有黨產會，這些都有減到零的，還有凍結……"],["賴委員士葆：那減到零就用第二預備金，你覺得可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：第二預備金還要報立法院……"],["賴委員士葆：好，一樣，來了我們審啊。所以我問你，因為我時間快到了，第一個，可以用追加減預算、可以用第二預備金來解決你講的問題，對吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是跟委員報告，追加減預算有追加減預算的條件。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，第二預備金可以呀！"],["陳主計長淑姿：第二預備金只能針對執行有困難的部分來做……"],["賴委員士葆：執行有困難就是你講的啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這部分也必須要報到院裡面來，讓院裡面……"],["賴委員士葆：對，當然要立法院審查，我就請問你……"],["主席：那我請問中選會現在都用行政院的第二預備金，那個可以嗎？對不對？錯誤的政策比貪污100倍可怕，我剛剛是這樣講。"],["賴委員士葆：時間你要幫我注意一下，你讓我說一下。主計長，我現在就好好地跟你講，我就問你第二預備金plus追加減預算是不是可以解你的問題，是不是？可不可以？你回答我可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們第二預備金……"],["賴委員士葆：你回答我啦，我時間到了，你還這樣，你回答我可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以目前來講的話，如果被刪減的部分要辦追加是沒辦法。"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼沒辦法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為沒有辦法……"],["賴委員士葆：一切歸零啊，就可以開始追加減了，怎麼不可以呢？可以開始了啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，歸零的追加減會來不及。"],["賴委員士葆：可以啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以他要動預備金……"],["賴委員士葆：請審計長來一下。"],["主席：陳審計長來把事情釐清，謝謝，在國會殿堂要講真話，不能糊弄喔！"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，你也做過副主計長，可以不可以用第二預備金來處理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：動支第二預備金有4個條件。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，現在我時間到，不要講條件。我現在告訴你，主計長，我很失望你今天給我這樣的答案，因為是你來找我的時候就講兩個：追加減預算plus第二預備金，我都跟你說，我絕對歡迎、我都非常正面的回應，結果今天來這裡全都縮回去了！我對你很失望，枉費我以前對你很尊敬。","我們的審計長只有一句話，你對於現在人家講的央廣2,000筆領據有問題，你怎麼處理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為央廣是財團法人……"],["賴委員士葆：你要不要查啊？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：依照財團法人法，這個屬於文化部督導……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你不能查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：文化部要負責監督。"],["賴委員士葆：你要不要查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為文化部已經移送檢調了。"],["賴委員士葆：你可以不可以查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：任何動用國家資源的我都可以查。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你什麼時候要去查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為文化部已經委託會計師查過了。"],["賴委員士葆：但是你還是可以查啊。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會做一些了解。"],["賴委員士葆：我要求你去查，可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：你有要求的話，我們會進行了解。"],["賴委員士葆：好，什麼時候開始？1個月的時間可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為現在在抽……因為我們整個要辦結算的審核報告，現在……"],["賴委員士葆：1個月可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該可以。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請郭國文郭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-4","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","吳秉叡","柯建銘","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李彥秀","林思銘","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","顏寬恒","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","吳思瑤","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2025-03-24"],"gazette_id":"1143101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等26人、委員林德福等20人、委員賴士葆等20人分別擬具「預\n算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1143101_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}