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利制度那相對的特別是在農業保險的部分我想我們會重新檢視為什麼現在部分的產品的農業保險他推動的並不是那麼理想那我們會去思考怎麼樣用更好的一個方式能夠鼓勵農民來參加保險"},{"start":2314.355,"end":2335.924,"text":"那第二個部分也是非常重要就是小農一直是我們他們農業的一個困境所以怎麼樣集結小農變成團隊式的一個農業生產變成一個非常重要當你農業生產的話必須培育相關的農業的一個經營能材然後同時也會增加相關的農業的資源能力當資源能力不夠的話我們就會用農機的一個協助"},{"start":2339.825,"end":2368.032,"text":"所以在這邊我們新的政策裡面我們將會加強力道去推所謂的農機的服務業那簡單的說就是農機的Uber那我們未來的一個目標就是一個一鄉鎮一個農機的Uber它能夠搭配現有的人力團去做共通的一個協助那第三個部分就是我們要強化整個從餐桌農產品的安全的整個供應鏈的部分那這個部分包括有機友善在過去幾年推得還不錯的我們會持續的這一頁推動"},{"start":2368.812,"end":2384.601,"text":"那也會增加它的覆蓋率因為推動了有機農業不用肥料不用農藥的時候它另外一個部分也會減少我們的整個的那個碳排那第4個部分是怎麼樣去富裕我們的幸福農村"},{"start":2385.521,"end":2409.839,"text":"讓農村真正的成為一個一居一業的一個農村那大概有幾個面向可以跟各位委員報告第一個部分就是我們會去建立一個指導性的一個農村規劃的一個系統那配合農村財政計畫各位委員所提到的一個全國性的這些農在計畫的一個上位性的一個計畫去做一個整體性的一個規劃那第二個部分就是"},{"start":2410.439,"end":2410.579,"text":"主席"},{"start":2435.735,"end":2441.367,"text":"我想最後其實在整個農業政策是具有它的延續性的那在"},{"start":2442.466,"end":2468.592,"text":"﹗"},{"start":2474.295,"end":2501.38,"text":"好謝謝陳部長的報告我們現在要進行詢答那委員質詢前我們依照慣例主席台幾項宣告每位委員發言的時間本會委員6分鐘必要時加長1分鐘非本會委員4分鐘我們上午10點半截止發言登記那我們在這邊先恭喜我們的"},{"start":2502.56,"end":2525.33,"text":"代理部長正式徵處為農業部部長陳部長我們恭喜你謝謝好那我們首先請登記第一位的陳廷飛委員請做發言謝謝教委我們請部長我們請陳部長"},{"start":2534.987,"end":2555.409,"text":"委員長部長我想有4個問題大概都是我一直在追蹤的那我比較快速那請部長把我從過去關心到現在的一些進度很清楚簡短的跟我報告一下就是說我們好不容易在整個養牛產業的全面升級轉型計畫"},{"start":2557.931,"end":2585.573,"text":"推一推剛好吹出來了齁 終於吹出來了齁從去年開始一直到現在我第一場邀請陳吉仲部長在柳營區開農會那時候是聲音最大的時候在8月29號就是112年8月29號好 我們下來了陳吉仲部長有幾個安心的方向也就是所謂的我們有淘汰這個"},{"start":2587.054,"end":2587.274,"text":"主席"},{"start":2615.736,"end":2633.988,"text":"113年就是今年的2月5號一樣我也開了座談會跟記者會那當時候農業部也是這麼說我還質詢了我們的部長當時候是代理部長部長也說也是這個方向所以我們一直追一直追一直追終於終於這個計畫這個計畫公告了對不對"},{"start":2640.902,"end":2656.618,"text":"這個計劃已經獲得行政院的一個合定合定了對合定了嘛來現在重點來了5月8日才合定嘛是不是5月8日合定現在所有弱農都在擔心怎麼辦"},{"start":2658.141,"end":2683.177,"text":"5月8日才核定那你當時候在去年跟人家講的一些甜言蜜語人家已經跟你配合政府的一些相關的措施都已經做了結果現在有可能因為主計單位有可能因為年度的問題沒有辦法溯及既往回歸到當時候你們所講的12月1號"},{"start":2685.616,"end":2708.898,"text":"欸 這事情大條捏 部長 這事情大條捏 這變成我們政府私信於民欸 在8月29日當時候是陳其中部長去答應 然後後面所有相關你們的說明會到各地的說明會都是這麼說 你們要趕快做 我們來做淘汰這個乳牛的相關辦法"},{"start":2711.087,"end":2718.634,"text":"大家都配合：結果現在說不可以,現在5月8日行政院才通過沒有辦法溯及到10月1號部長這怎麼辦"},{"start":2723.171,"end":2750.502,"text":"我想跟委員說明就是5月8日通過了以後那基本上淘汰拐角年齡也是一個既定的政策那我們在內部也一直在去研議、去追溯好這第一點我要先跟委員說明的但是在追溯的部分有很多執行的細節因為整個乳牛的一個例行性的一個當然啊這有細節啊這當然你們要去克服啊你有話要跟我說這麼大聲在去年8月29日"},{"start":2752.104,"end":2755.902,"text":"你怎麼知道我年度的問題?你要跟行政院講啊!"},{"start":2756.997,"end":2782.573,"text":"你們要趕快給我核定啊為什麼拖到5月8號拖到5月8號現在才跟人家講說年度的問題這上一段很需要我跟委員說明齁誰能夠接受農業部本身所提的一個計畫他不是說提了一個計畫就到運廊市就核定了因為提計畫以後會到國科會會徵詢所有的相關部會的一個同意再到行政院那如果說有有他們有疑問的話還會退下來補充"},{"start":2784.734,"end":2803.211,"text":"所以整個的一個計畫其實我們在去年底就開始去研議再去研討的時候部長 這個就是重點嘛你們去年底因為我已經質詢很多次了在這個地方我質詢過幾次了然後我就在提醒你們速度要快因為一定會有年度的問題"},{"start":2804.958,"end":2831.916,"text":"結果你們來來去去來來去去來來去去到5月8號才做合定好啦這個是你們的問題不能是酪農的問題我再一次強調這些行政程序是你們的問題人家答應過、政府人家說的就是要照著不能人家跳票這個部長我在這個地方慎重要求而且如果在下一次質詢我也會質詢卓榮泰院長"},{"start":2834.861,"end":2864.621,"text":"不能因為這年度的部分我們的酪農配合我們國家的政策然後反而得不到補助這個部分很重要欸你調所有的過程我跟委員說明就是我們會讓這個制度能夠有程度的溯源但是我們也查了所有的會議記錄我們當初所提到就是說我們一定會盡可能的協助酪農能夠追溯這件事情"},{"start":2865.741,"end":2893.255,"text":"那至於追溯到什麼樣的時間點我告訴你 你們裡面的在說謊喔 所有的落農很清楚的指到12月1號 你們去調你們所有的說明會喔 你們不要在這邊說謊喔12月1號是所有落農都知道的時間點喔 你們現在過去要叫人走 就說這麼衰退這麼大聲 結果現在 現在跳票 現在矢口否認喔"},{"start":2894.52,"end":2910.093,"text":"我告訴你 這個東西 洛農已經很清楚我覺得該怎麼做就怎麼做不要跳票 不要在第一屆把代理部長徵除之後就對洛農跳票第二個部分就是說現在"},{"start":2911.451,"end":2927.76,"text":"我們看到我們的國產鮮乳計畫是要引用提供學童、引用保酒乳可是現在有兩個問題第一個問題你跟人家說鮮乳有食安的疑慮吃青椰一點是最好嘛 對不對"},{"start":2929.116,"end":2945.308,"text":"是不是?當天縣級的先來一定是最好嘛那現在衛福部說會有食安的疑慮那請問雲林縣、嘉義縣、宜蘭縣從110年到現在都陸續提供了學童先入那為什麼沒有食安的疑慮?"},{"start":2946.789,"end":2947.91,"text":"為什麼沒有?不是!部長!我已經跟你講了你不要把我跳題"},{"start":2961.374,"end":2982.342,"text":"我前面跟你講了那你要跟我講人家嘉義雲林宜蘭從110年做到現在為什麼沒有食安的問題你不要再用食安你要去跟酪農說清楚好第二個問題國產鮮乳他你如何協助他轉型因應現在變成國產的薄酒乳"},{"start":2984.482,"end":2996.952,"text":"你要怎麼去輔導他?你要怎麼去檢討相關的流程機制?現在是有關卡的喔!現在不是每一家都可以把他變成所謂的國產薄酒爐喔!不是喔!不是喔!他有門檻喔!對啊!"},{"start":3002.436,"end":3025.364,"text":"那你今天這個制度下去請問你幫到了誰?你有幫到我們真正國產的鮮乳嗎?現在是因為紐西蘭的所有薄酒乳進來薄酒乳進來之後我們為了要去鼓勵我們的鮮乳不要滯銷不要是有因為紐西蘭的問題而造成這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":3026.644,"end":3041.144,"text":"可是你這個部分你沒有去做輔導機制沒有去幫他們說國產鮮乳包括小農也好怎麼去協助他轉型因應成國產的苞酒乳這個問題就跑出來了所以今天我丟這兩個問題給你"},{"start":3043.208,"end":3044.469,"text":"第三個就是水稻的問題"},{"start":3066.167,"end":3083.388,"text":"水稻的問題水稻的保險你們現在怎麼處理有機制了嗎我們的水稻保險有分兩個一個是基本型一個是加獎型的部分當然現在針對是基本型基本型的部分我們會針對相關的這些特定的區域我們會增加它的取樣點"},{"start":3084.269,"end":3110.129,"text":"取讓點這個部分要趕快積極處理因為這幾天都已經前面都開始在收成了所有的取讓點然後增加到跟保險公司你們是你們是這個去招標的是有你們所以你應該保險公司一定有一定的一些協調平台你應該給他們一個壓力你沒有給他們壓力我跟你講啦保險公司齁 都是這樣啦反正"},{"start":3112.21,"end":3135.355,"text":"要拿的時候是另外一種面我跟委員講明喔政策型保險是我們農經局沒有政策型保險不是私人公司私人保險公司是我們農經局我們農業部局在處理的是所以沒有說那個保險公司那最好啊農經局自己人啊自己人嘛我們昨天才開會的對嘛自己人嘛那現在有方向了對了"},{"start":3136.621,"end":3141.624,"text":"就是我們會增加相關的取樣點但是基準產量的部分還是去頭去尾的部分然後還有蜂農的問題蜂農我們基本上已經公告了新的我們的這個災損已經公告了我們公告了以後要啟動的時候要開專家會議今天早上正在開"},{"start":3155.051,"end":3169.399,"text":"今天早上開專家會議專家會議開完就會有一個方向就是如何落實蜂農的登記如何讓災損的部分蜂農可以納入到我們的災損而且有一個基準產量的部分這些都會在今天會有一個討論我們在那個"},{"start":3172.02,"end":3172.9,"text":"今天早上再開,今天早上開完就會有一個方向了"},{"start":3194.73,"end":3208.217,"text":"我覺得這一次因為我們的這個農演這一次是摘損風農的損失非常非常的慘重所以我們希望學者專家應該給風農然後我們農業部應該給風農一個標準還有他們的一個挖口這是最重要的農業部長將相關資訊給成為人說明清楚謝謝"},{"start":3225.503,"end":3239.307,"text":"臣庭外臣庭外敬禮好接下來我們請林戴華委員請做巡檔有請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":3248.609,"end":3262.942,"text":"好,我們再繼續討論農業決策智慧化上一次質詢委是針對智慧化決策智慧化那這邊聚焦就是希望能夠針對基層農業會的服務品質提升要做的事情就是加速"},{"start":3263.622,"end":3266.026,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3281.584,"end":3283.326,"text":"第三個是你們現在部本部在做的本行認為很好"},{"start":3299.265,"end":3317.158,"text":"提升資訊系統串聯資訊平台最後我有一個具體要求好現在容易會使用的資訊系統已在是太過老舊了有存在資安的安全性的問題作業版本過舊舊到什麼程度現在還有在用dos還有在用window2000"},{"start":3318.579,"end":3318.739,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":3348.539,"end":3352.664,"text":"也就有資料遺失的風險如果各農漁會要進行系統的更新的話這將是會產生龐大的經費支出那現在資訊服務業發達各農漁會如果不需要自己自購伺服器的話"},{"start":3366.161,"end":3371.544,"text":"他其實只要使用雲端共用平台就可以解決這個問題的 這也是你農業部、牧本部現在在做的事情好我們來看你們的輔導呢 這個我要感謝你們資訊師跟這個資訊師跟那個商員：輔導師齁 兩個師呢下去呢跟這個我們南農中心的做了一個簡報"},{"start":3389.634,"end":3398.502,"text":"那所以呢他們也就具體的提出這個農業會多元系統整合技資訊共用服務平台為了就是提升農業會的競爭力他能夠做到兩件事情第一個是我們這個軟硬體的設備的更新他的資訊落後的問題能夠解決第二個他的應用面"},{"start":3410.052,"end":3410.732,"text":"融合融合"},{"start":3429.139,"end":3448.492,"text":"的重點是我能夠降低農業會的自建機房跟人力設備為營運的成本過往現在各農業會自己要自建機房我要配置人力那如果是有南農中心自己來做那你們來支持他那你一定會問那他自負營給我怎麼可以發這麼大筆錢去支持他呢那因為後面我要達到農業決策智慧化這件事情後續我再跟您做這個陳述"},{"start":3459.499,"end":3465.121,"text":"好那你們現在農業部部本部做的是什麼呢在右圖這是你們資訊室提供的對外有這個internet對內你們有這個下面的農業部跟這個這個資料這個資料中心這個機房再來透過這個我們的這個網路接口下面就是你們的屬施個中心這樣的概念好農業部呢就是為了提升這樣的一個"},{"start":3487.106,"end":3508.156,"text":"資料中心的運作效率跟管理效能確實正在進行行政資訊系統共用架構好這個架構呢有對外服務的這個資訊系統也就這個internet以及共用行政資料的系統也就是在右邊這個圖農業部跟你這個農業資料中心以下這些都是你們自己但"},{"start":3508.715,"end":3532.091,"text":"他是針對你的人事、你的薪資還有你的公文系統這三個做你是沒有涉及農業產銷的數據化所有農林榆木的數據化所以如果你把你這個概念再加入所有基礎的農業產銷的數據那您就您的您這一任部長"},{"start":3533.444,"end":3551.425,"text":"你是一千分啦不是一百分啦是一百分的一千分你整個徹底的改改解決了我的產銷失衡好那後續我再講我的具體建議在4月25號的時候資訊師跟輔導師下去做跟農農中心做說明所以呢本期主張農業基層組織共用雲端平台"},{"start":3554.568,"end":3555.829,"text":"這句話我的具體要求就是你們講的"},{"start":3574.938,"end":3578.761,"text":"你們在右邊這張資訊是說我不需要為了一杯牛來養一頭牛這是你們的口號喔 也是你們目標喔也就是說你們不需要屬、施、各中心各自呢再去建置這個硬體的資料系統以及你軟體的這個雲端系統你們都不用了 直接部本部來做"},{"start":3594.913,"end":3595.714,"text":"同樣道理我難容你怎麼取得各農漁會跟拍賣市場的產銷、進貨、拍賣相關的庫存的量"},{"start":3606.243,"end":3629.378,"text":"你當然要通過農業委員會啊那你怎麼拿得到所以他為了你要解決這個菜精菜土這種痛苦的惡性循環你當然要諮詢化所以你必須補助農業委員會那我希望你能夠跳脫一些思維這個你不要想說他們都是國民黨的啦所以呢我就不補助千萬千萬不要用這個思維"},{"start":3630.439,"end":3638.664,"text":"我的心中我本席的心中我只有臺灣農業農業會的能夠升級能夠讓幫助我的農業民更有效率的經營能夠企業化的經營我的部本部我做立委快20多年了7屆的立委我從第一屆到現在都在跟你一樣面對慘消失衡啊我還要多久的輪迴啊還要多久的這種痛苦的成科的輪迴"},{"start":3657.464,"end":3677.331,"text":"該有智慧現在科技都智慧化決策智慧化所以你一定要編專案輔助補導我農業會的硬體設備的更新一個專案這個這一本我早就在去年就已經爬出出來濟南農中心做了這一本所有雲嘉南所有各個農業會自己給我填需求表出來"},{"start":3679.152,"end":3691.446,"text":"這筆費用 說少不少 說多不多 一億多 這只有硬體 現在大概我想這個變動不大 我還沒講到軟體的部分 你再看看你每年補助的費用都超過這個"},{"start":3693.148,"end":3693.688,"text":"為了是什麼?所有的資訊拍賣市場農業產銷的農林運輸說你掌握在現場"},{"start":3710.842,"end":3723.25,"text":"好,為了達到農業決策智慧化本席主張應比照你行政資訊系統的共用架構的模式專案輔導我南農中心汰換各縣市農業會的老舊電腦設備建置雲端服務平台讓各縣市農業會能夠彼此享有這樣的資訊服務然後呢這個能夠實現我們各系統間的基訊間接有助於提升農業會經營效率對我本席來講包括國家來講"},{"start":3739.58,"end":3765.528,"text":"根本解決產銷失衡的痛苦成科你除了這個農業你除了上次我講的這個精準農業好你要給我吊書袋叫做分子農業那這個也講到我的農業智慧化的問題現在我就直接聚焦你怎麼解決這個除了這個精準農業源頭掌握之外改善之外你基因定序下去之外你的這個整個產銷系統的設備跟雲端你當然要建設啊"},{"start":3769.429,"end":3779.483,"text":"所以部長您這一次你這做你這做多久我不曉得我希望你就是做4年甚至8年都沒關係你只要一件事給我做你就是真的是公債農業部啊你的產銷能夠徹底的解決就在這邊而已啊部長請回應"},{"start":3786.944,"end":3809.327,"text":"謝謝委員對於我們那個農業相關資訊化的一個說話那分兩個部分一個硬體的部分那硬體的部分我想我們一定會積極去協助那軟體的部分也是啊包括您剛才講的共用雲端這個概念是一個共享的一個概念非常好但是現在要去克服的一個問題就是農會如果都都自己願意加進去那是最好的"},{"start":3809.787,"end":3809.807,"text":"部長"},{"start":3825.429,"end":3833.154,"text":"您就齁如果您答應你就放手讓諮詢師去規劃去輔導南農中心他一下就馬上對接139個農業委員會了您來我回到這個我簡報的第4頁他們現在的規劃是什麼你看喔他的差勤人事財務管理農健保肥料競銷匯集管理電子公文系統這都是你們指導出來的喔他們現在未來給你報計畫未來這邊就會有農林榆木"},{"start":3855.73,"end":3881.29,"text":"特設基礎的這個農業的基礎資料就會進來了你就可以掌握了所以部長這個您我希望啦這樣兩個月啦好不好因為你們其實已經都在作業兩個月內把這個要支持他們整個硬體設備更換的預算跟這個雲端公用雲端系統的這個的預算跟執行時程規劃出來兩個兩個月可以嗎"},{"start":3883.649,"end":3884.15,"text":"楊瓊英委員"},{"start":3911.269,"end":3912.03,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請陳部長"},{"start":3921.613,"end":3941.226,"text":"委員長部長恭喜您謝謝有人說今天我為什麼還要再請您來做這個施政報告因為我認為本市認為新政府有新的政策新的方針所以我們慎重其事還是歡迎邀請您到這個經濟委員會來做報告所以本市首先要請教今年因為我們氣候變遷的影響"},{"start":3948.832,"end":3962.501,"text":"可以說是氣候急劇的加劇農作物的整個調整功能越來越弱因此只要碰到颱風、豪雨、乾旱農作物相對受損"},{"start":3963.422,"end":3993.422,"text":"．"},{"start":3993.923,"end":4012.463,"text":"我們只有看到說農業部常常就是會用補助來解決問題但是我相信農民要的不是這個我們要從根源去解決所以因此在農作物要適應外在的環境變動"},{"start":4013.524,"end":4013.764,"text":"我簡單的跟委員說明就是當"},{"start":4039.619,"end":4051.509,"text":"我們的作物遇到極端天候的時候有兩個方向一個方向就是它種植的地點不變但是相對的我們就要透過更精準的這些栽培技術包括品種對"},{"start":4055.132,"end":4055.372,"text":"國際事務部長"},{"start":4071.101,"end":4090.179,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":4090.419,"end":4115.251,"text":"各位農民去做這些因應的時候其實它的效果也是有限所以我們會透過集團的方式去處理對 農民很單純您講到這個重點嫩心農業以及怎麼樣去協助產銷失調這個是非常重要您是專家我願意看到您美麗的成果好嗎?你教你所預計要怎麼做調整的方向那告訴書面資料詳實給本期"},{"start":4118.814,"end":4136.234,"text":"來協助農民那據媒體5月17日的報告美國爆發的乳牛感染H5N1高病原性的禽流感HPA的疫情讓我們國內的消費者跟弱農大家好緊張"},{"start":4137.575,"end":4139.957,"text":"為了要加強農業部對已經主要的縣市養牛進行了採樣的一個檢視在5月17日你們也公布的答案是誠意信的農業部反檢署提醒養牛場一定要具備防鳥設施也叫他們不要飼養家禽"},{"start":4166.213,"end":4175.247,"text":"你們請這個農場要努力的這麼去做所以本期要請教部長我們台灣有三類的候鳥"},{"start":4178.283,"end":4205.362,"text":"三類候鳥他春夏季會來台灣繁殖夏候鳥春夏季來就是要等著繁殖夏候鳥秋冬季來呢一邊避寒這個冬候鳥跟在遷徙當中跟在遷徙當中暫時過境就像過境旅館一樣他要暫時過境休息的過境鳥台灣有這三個候鳥"},{"start":4206.363,"end":4223.763,"text":"那台灣未在候鳥遷徙的路上那你本身對於我們諾農你提供怎麼樣的防護建設怎麼樣保護接下來你是不是要抽撿美國進口的乳牛的相關產品有沒有問題請做說明"},{"start":4226.533,"end":4250.493,"text":"第一個跟委員說明就是美國所發現的H1N1本身的基因型是跟臺灣不一樣那同時我們也針對臺灣的乳牛場本身做了一些實際的一個監控所以我在這邊也要特別跟所有的消費者講我們的牛奶特別有經過殺菌的部分所以是可以安心使用的所以是放心的是放心的我希望透過媒體朋友告訴我們社會大眾對"},{"start":4251.274,"end":4252.134,"text":"因為我們的宣導得當,特別是在蛋機廠,它只有4場。"},{"start":4272.041,"end":4295.7,"text":"那相對的比往年少很多表示生物安全的防護是非常重要的這是對防護很重要那這個當然我們減少是可以加取但是一場也不要對我們也是希望這樣子然後再怎麼樣再把它導入到我們的乳牛的系統就是第三階段的部分那我在這邊也跟委員說明就是勤怒感的部分它會傳染到乳牛其實它的機會相對的比"},{"start":4297.722,"end":4320.93,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":4321.01,"end":4327.315,"text":"你不要只有叫糯農他們養牛的去防護那個鳥,他怎麼防護啊?你怎麼協助他?對啊你怎麼協助他?你不要喊一個口號人家做不到的啊!所以我們會在去那個養牛場周遭的那個環境監控我們會去做加強"},{"start":4337.603,"end":4350.332,"text":"那這樣的話,如果說有發現到可疑的這些檢體的時候那相對的我們會提出更早的一個預警機制對,就預警很重要你也請詳時將你們怎麼預備防護協助落農的書面資料給本席再給你一個議題台灣整體性的動保員編制不足本席跟你討論過了幾次你們除了讓他們資深前往"},{"start":4363.962,"end":4390.832,"text":"或者是請檢方來協助或者是外包單位來稽查但是依照我們現在的動保法除非他是有虐待動物或者是沒有辦法恢復的重傷他才有刑責那否則他只有一個行政處分大家不痛不癢的在這樣的情況之下本席也多年呼籲政府應該要落實動保警察制度的這個聲音對不對你認不認同"},{"start":4392.557,"end":4420.002,"text":"我想這個議題齁其實我們跟內政部也討論了很多啦但是因為警察的他的勤務是非常多的那在因為也是屬於內政部所管轄的但是在內政部這邊還沒有討論一個定案之前我們更希望在動保法裡面修法讓我們的動保檢察人員富有這種相關的這些職權齁能夠進到相關的場域去做一個查核這樣的話才能夠有效的去遏止相關的一個"},{"start":4420.282,"end":4428.924,"text":"你增加查核他只是必須條件你的必要條件當你發現問題的時候你可以解決這才是你目前新政府要推動的因為內政部告訴你依據大法官588號的一個廣義的警察權以及動保法第23條的規定動保員是主管機關是農業部法定的動保警察但是明明白白我們目前的機制是不夠的"},{"start":4449.068,"end":4472.607,"text":"所以這個議題因為我非常的關心所以本席也要請你將辦理設立動保警察做一個專案的來研討那內政部也應該要配合你做權力的配合所以本席希望你開始啟動動保警察專案的研議以有效的保障我們的這個機場"},{"start":4474.488,"end":4490.402,"text":"好嗎?好。你做一個專案嘛,好不好?可以,我們可以啟動一個專案去做研究,然後甚至於跟內政部...你多久的時間?我們內部相對單純啦,因為這個部分專案也就要到內政部,至少要3個月齁,才能夠有一個比較好的..."},{"start":4490.922,"end":4520.682,"text":"我們就設定在三個月啊你跟內政部趕快講我已經告訴你我也問了內政部他用大法官解釋的588漢來抵制你用你的動法法23條來抵制你這我們沒有辦法解決問題啊我覺得一個有為的政府應該是針對民眾所需執行者行政部門執行所需我們去做調整而不是矢鼓不化就拿著什麼解釋來抵制需要者那完全得不到答案"},{"start":4521.402,"end":4546.267,"text":"你認同這個方向吧?我認同好!所以你三個月內你啟動了這個專案來研議用保警察研議方案我們再來繼續討論好嗎?最後請教上一次本席請教的農業會選舉的時候會員的這個資格那麼我們也約定一個禮拜我也感謝您在一個禮拜也回覆了本席那麼你們預告了嗎?我想"},{"start":4550.404,"end":4559.752,"text":"應該可以在5月10日之前,應該6月,6月10日之前可以預告,因為方案已經出來了,然後這個禮拜會安排時間確認,那為什麼要那麼久呢?今天才5月28日"},{"start":4565.973,"end":4566.633,"text":"謝謝楊淳英委員"},{"start":4594.624,"end":4595.225,"text":"我們接下來請張祺凱委員請陳部長"},{"start":4623.669,"end":4623.89,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4628.683,"end":4653.433,"text":"我是嘉義人,嘉義最近有一個重要的事,就是阿里山阿里山是我們嘉義的競合,也是整個台灣的競合他的這個鐵道,森林鐵道是國際級的觀光鐵道7月1日馬上要全線通車了,這對整個嘉義跟整個台灣甚至吸引很多國際的旅客來台灣讓世界看到台灣是非常重要的,所以"},{"start":4654.687,"end":4677.831,"text":"第一個7月1日如期通車第二個安全也很重要所以本席的辦公室成立了阿里山光榮的團隊我們實地這幾天去勘察每一站每一站去勘察它是不是安全的柏定我給你看一下有些地方安全真的要趕快去補破網我給你看實際的勘察狀況來你看這張沒有發現那個鐵道在震動"},{"start":4683.988,"end":4704.173,"text":"保證你注意看我們阿里山的這個火車過去的時候鐵道是在震動的這是有危險的鐵道為什麼會震動?下面被掏空了上面的釘子脫落了中間的也出了狀況了上中下都有問題你看這釘子你看"},{"start":4709.475,"end":4734.179,"text":"我會跟委員說明一下鐵路經過的時候它一定要有某個程度的震動那當然沒有錯就是說如果它的震動所以它的有一些卯釘本身會有一些間隙讓它當作一個震動但是有一些我想委員所關心的是安全所以我們一定會在全線的部分就是用人力的方式去逐一的再去檢查一次"},{"start":4734.779,"end":4753.6,"text":"現在問題出在哪裡?我再給你看一次。它下面是不是被掏空了?你有沒有發現?鐵道中的怎麼樣震動的話也不應該下面被掏空嗎?你剛剛看的那個釘子,一個是下面它本身被掏空了。上面是做什麼?釘子就是要讓它固定的嘛。釘子也浮起來啦。中間就是枕木,你看。"},{"start":4754.588,"end":4769.037,"text":"整部就斷掉啦上、中、下全部都有狀況了我們一定會去通車前一定會去全線檢查我請林業保育署署長講一下這個地方我把地點給你這是半門北門車站就是起點那個"},{"start":4769.998,"end":4779.001,"text":"在北門車站附近的這個鐵道釘子浮起來中間的枕木斷掉了下面掏空了這是地雷我再給你看第二個畫面來第二個畫面是鐵橋叫到那個張老寮那個路段爬升的那個路段你看"},{"start":4800.696,"end":4819.081,"text":"不只是枕木斷掉啦,大家看這個畫面有點觸目驚心喔。下面是積水的。就是它排水出的狀況嘛。所以你看,本來這個枕木應該是整個是橫的,橫在那邊的。它已經泡了、斷掉了,而且都已經移位了。最嚴重的是它的排水。這個路斷地、這條橋。"},{"start":4831.886,"end":4850.72,"text":"我相信你們有能力可以去解決可是一定要快好不好馬上做會後可能就叫林務署的委員馬上就去巡檢一次啦這個一定是安全是一個最重要的對對對另外我再看一個阿里山的這個落實的這個問題邊坡的這個安全也是非常非常重要的"},{"start":4851.44,"end":4875.378,"text":"還記得,今年4月差一點就發生意外了你看那個石頭掉到那個中間來還好啦,有遊客很機靈下來趕快揮手可是你不能每次都靠遊客機揮手啊對不對也不能碰運氣啊所以我看你今天的報告裡面的第7頁你說要導入創新AI的技術提升災害的監測預警這就是"},{"start":4879.248,"end":4903.57,"text":"創新AI技術提升災害的這個監測系統嘛 這其實應該是 前陣子什麼都要做的事情對不對?這目前做到最後 我先給你看一下我為什麼提醒去年這個事情 你看一下 昨天就在昨天就在昨天 愛里山這個邊坡 還有落石喔 這是昨天的委員喔這是我們光榮團隊拍回來的這個畫面 昨天都還有"},{"start":4904.758,"end":4933.561,"text":"那我要問你兩個很重要的事情你本來說所謂的AI的這個邊坡的這個監測系統你現在到底做到什麼程度阿我跟委員說明喔我們現在的那個AI的監測系統大概分為兩個面向一個面向是在農業生產端一個在土石流跟大規模崩塌的潛勢區那我希望說未來不只是在兩個地區包括我之前也強調就是說相關的那個鐵路的邊坡其實我們它可能不是一個"},{"start":4934.522,"end":4934.702,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4952.463,"end":4953.804,"text":"我提醒一下,其實去年"},{"start":4983.161,"end":5007.91,"text":"陳建仁陳院長他去試搭這個無聲號的試測的時候貴燈鋼就出軌了對不對所以這個老實講這個危險都還是存在的可是我們不怕問題一定要面對問題提早發現問題趕快去解決我幫大家做個整理阿里山光榮團隊去做了實測之外發現了幾個問題第一個有些地方的枕木已經位移了稻町已經浮起來了"},{"start":5009.295,"end":5009.595,"text":"道渣跟枕木"},{"start":5030.848,"end":5054.956,"text":"一定要去全線要定期這個調查我目前瞭解你們這個時間好像拉得很長對不對能不能比較密集一點去做個檢查你不要每次發生問題頭痛一頭腳痛一腳第二個你剛講這個人工巡迴這個系統這個AI這一塊要趕快去做好不好而且你給我個報告就是你目前到底在哪些地方能不能確保這個是安全的另外另外我提一個非常非常重要的這個問題"},{"start":5056.36,"end":5068.661,"text":"每天,就像昨天發生那個問題,東西掉下來,落石掉下來,對不對?你們現在是甚麼?那個整個通報的流程是怎麼樣?時間會不會花得很多?誰去處理?像昨天我剛才在看的那個委員"},{"start":5070.325,"end":5087.121,"text":"就我們林業保育署的人員去處理的我們相關的林業保育署的同仁去處理的鐵道這邊主管機關然後是報給誰阿里山鐵道是我們管理的所以他編播的部分如果遇到有些東西也是我們同仁去處理的"},{"start":5087.941,"end":5101.45,"text":"好,OK,所以等一下我們今天下午就趕快去現場把剛剛講的問題,把它補破網,趕快把它補起來,好不好?然後另外一個禮拜內你給我一份報告,就是剛剛講的這些你要怎麼去強化,好不好?好,兩個禮拜好不好?兩個禮拜可以"},{"start":5103.407,"end":5121.118,"text":"好,兩個禮拜可以,最重要是等一下趕快去啦我剛剛跟你講的都是非常重要的尋檢一定會立刻去做而且每天會尋我們會把我們尋的那個機制跟委員說明所以包括剛才講的AI的部分包括整合防護的部分我想希望有一個更具體的一個方案是提供給委員"},{"start":5122.239,"end":5149.073,"text":"一定要拜託一下去過伊河通車的時候確保是安全的而且擦亮這個阿里山的這個光榮就是嘉義讓整個臺灣讓國際上都看到臺灣人的這個驕傲我用一點點小時間問一下上個禮拜我們做了這個雞蛋這個我要求三個東西第一個你這個影像已經有做了影像這部分你做了可是呢第二個說4月底之前你要交付報告給經濟委員會各項的這個細目結果"},{"start":5152.113,"end":5160.182,"text":"你送到本期辦公室才兩頁而已你怎麼只有送兩頁?看一下下一張你才給我兩頁啊我那天要求的是什麼?"},{"start":5161.909,"end":5188.143,"text":"第一 過期雞蛋採購的金額﹚詳細的列表﹚包括什麼﹚你的批次、進口國、數量、進口日期、到案的價格﹚我會記得你之前在做過啊﹚對﹚你應該給我這個東西啊﹚好不好﹚最新的、最新的﹚第二提供我倉儲費用裡面的各項費用的明細﹚包括年度跟批次﹚好不好﹚你不能只有給我這兩張喔﹚我跟你說齁﹚昨天國會改革方案過了﹚很多禮物都在"},{"start":5189.602,"end":5215.734,"text":"很多立委朋友都在過曝說要成立的第一個就是超時的調查專案小組了 我問問說你資料趕快給我們很完整 不會弄到後來變成是要成立一個調查小組 變成是農業部是第一個被調查的好不好 好好謝謝部長 好我們再會加油 真相要給好不好 要有真相才能夠解決問題 謝謝部長好非常感謝 你看我們張委員這麼理性問真這是屬於我們要的 也謝謝部長"},{"start":5222.725,"end":5239.87,"text":"好,接下來我們請邱毅委員請做詢答。好,謝謝莊委。我是不是請一下陳部長。我們再請陳部長。委員長。部長早。"},{"start":5251.44,"end":5261.351,"text":"首先恭喜您雖然過去幾次都在這裡以代理部長的身份來做詢問今天應該算是正式第一次是部長的身份"},{"start":5263.717,"end":5293.197,"text":"我就不問您說這個角色轉換上面其實在同一個職務上應該不會有太大的落差但是未來要做的事情看起來您應該有一些自己的想法部長首先就請教您的業務報告裡頭一直談到了未來的農業要有智慧、韌性、永續、安心這是您未來要推動的主要方向所以我首先要請教您一件事情"},{"start":5294.057,"end":5316.132,"text":"所謂的智慧這件事我們都一直講要做智慧農業包括灌溉包括施肥包括栽種等等都要把它智慧化所以我看到你們現在講說要推出一個所謂的農民數位卡對不對我可不可以請教一下到底這個農民數位卡你們要怎麼做"},{"start":5316.912,"end":5333.248,"text":"那要如何推動下去因為就我們的瞭解現在台灣的農業人口其實是年齡層是偏高的大概50到64歲這個區間是最多人那你們又說這個要往實際從農的農民先發行要從專業農民先推廣"},{"start":5336.491,"end":5351.685,"text":"那什麼叫實際從農跟專業農民這兩個的區別又是什麼那你到底要先怎麼做讓農民去認識所謂的數位卡然後進而讓他可以普及化比如53萬的農民你最少也要有"},{"start":5353.574,"end":5359.72,"text":"我想跟委員先說明幾個數據現在目前有主計總組有調查實際從事農業的人大概5至3萬人那以農保的部分65歲以下的大概36萬人所以然後在整個的農家所的統計的專業農民大概8萬人"},{"start":5377.756,"end":5397.056,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":5397.216,"end":5422.115,"text":"背後的資料庫是不是已經健全了你如果沒有那個資料庫的話光那個卡是沒用的可是過去幾年其實我們農業部一直持續在相關的資料數位化的部分做得非常用心做大概現在累計了大概18個資料庫這些資料庫都有相關的農民只要跟農業有來往的這些人的資料都有你說是農會或者是產銷合作社等等"},{"start":5423.016,"end":5441.538,"text":"對,農民就是只要你有申請,包括你有申請天然災害救助,你有申請那個種稻或什麼都有那這個資料庫本身我想數位服務卡有兩個功能一個功能就是我希望說現在很多包括天然災害救助包括補助都是申請一個都是紙本然後都要非常非常久"},{"start":5442.179,"end":5459.856,"text":"然後又要做後台的勾結很慢那你如果有一個數位卡它有專屬的QR Code我如果前端能夠利用這個類似銀行的那個把人民做確認以外對 然後只要少了以後大概所有的基本資料都帶出來了"},{"start":5460.736,"end":5474.084,"text":"對,這樣的話就會很快這個是一個服務第二個部分就是您剛才所提到的就是我們會透過這個數位付費卡做一些資訊的回饋那資訊的回饋我想現階段我們會以大概以專業農那個8萬人的專業農為主因為他們的他們是集團經營的"},{"start":5478.627,"end":5506.398,"text":"那集團經營比較需要這樣的一個資訊去我們提供客製化的服務包括我們的我們基本的18個資料庫我們也會結合農地的資料庫、空間的資料庫還會結合氣象的資料庫那這樣的話對於專業農民、集團產區的這些農民能夠更能夠有系統的接收到這樣的一個訊息去調整他們的耕作的時間部長那我請教一下你剛剛講這些東西什麼時候會開始做"},{"start":5509.035,"end":5529.156,"text":"預計什麼時候能夠把它普及化出來?您剛講資料庫都已經建置完成了嘛那您的這一些您剛講的這些作為什麼時候要開始動向?我是希望明年就能夠針對幾個示範的區域位跟縣市我們會跟第一個有很多東西可能要跟縣市合作因為縣市的第一線的公所也要"},{"start":5530.057,"end":5558.307,"text":"能夠願意試用然後會跟縣市或者是相關的集團產區我們會先導入那導入的過程中其實我們也可以發現他們有哪一些需求還可以再做精進的然後正式的能夠投入的話我們是希望兩年之內就能夠正式的能夠接受願意接受來進來的然後四年之內大概會能夠達到現在實際耕作者你不用這個的時候你可能沒辦法"},{"start":5559.187,"end":5583.909,"text":"拿到任何的一個政府的一個資源我們也會有一些政策誘因去設計部長謝謝您對於這個數位卡的回覆那我接下來還想要進一步請教就是農業基本法我們現在在處理我們很多農業的問題大概都是用農發條例作為最高的指導位階那其實在2006年就已經有曾經提出過第一版的農業基本法"},{"start":5584.989,"end":5613.029,"text":"2011年政府也曾經擬定農業基本法的草案但是當時並沒有通過我剛看了一下您的這個業務報告裡頭其實對於農業基本法沒有特別提出喔那部長我可不可以請教你您自己在任的這個時間您覺得你會不會來推動農業基本法那您覺得推動農業基本法有可能會遇到的問題是什麼?您有沒有信心它可以通過?"},{"start":5614.281,"end":5639.582,"text":"我跟委員說明其實從我的構想裡面農業基本法它是一個軸心因為它是一個綱領性的一個上位政策那這個上位政策它其實它破壞了整個農業的整體的長期的方向那我們現在的施政作為都是4年的一個中期計畫你只有長期的施政方向在那邊的時候我的中期才能夠去做一些調整"},{"start":5640.262,"end":5665.147,"text":"所以農業基本法其實它是彰顯了農業的一個價值同時也彰顯了政府對農業的一個企圖心那108年當初提到行政院的時候那當初的幾個內容裡面大概是牽涉到糧食安全的確保然後包括一些農民的一個權益的保障然後包括有一部分的農村的一個發展"},{"start":5666.027,"end":5666.527,"text":"所以你們會不會提出"},{"start":5689.787,"end":5693.569,"text":"我們一定會在4年內提出來一個新的版本然後我們也會去說服對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對"},{"start":5715.862,"end":5736.889,"text":"是不是大家一起努力希望能夠對我也希望到時候我們提出來的時候我們委員能夠能夠來支持好謝謝好謝謝謝謝感謝也謝謝我們的召委接下來我們請鄭正前委員請做巡檔"},{"start":5745.53,"end":5749.034,"text":"謝主席。我要請教陳部長。我們請陳部長。"},{"start":5756.986,"end":5785.291,"text":"來委員長部長好5月20日之後看到你還是很開心就是那在5月20日之前的時候我那時候提了一個質詢的內容就是有關於我們南寮漁港的問題清漁的問題那這個部分清漁的問題的時候說實話你們反應也很快已經來本辦公室有說明過了可是他們提到一個點就是說上次我們在質詢的時候部長有特別承諾就是說你看到那個整個南寮漁港整個淤積的狀態"},{"start":5786.611,"end":5809.707,"text":"你也認為一次性的清瘀是重要的,你也承諾要做對不對?是那他們來的時候他們告訴我說可能要4、5年才能夠做好有沒有辦法縮短時間?那為什麼需要那麼久?可不可以請部長再詳細做一個說明?我跟委員說明,就是當你看到一個很急迫要解決的問題當然希望越快越好所以我那時候承諾說一次性能夠把它清瘀是最好的"},{"start":5810.347,"end":5810.927,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":5826.994,"end":5850.144,"text":"你們預估齁整個南寮漁港現在淤積裡面的情況大概淤沙有多少?185萬立方公尺哇實在是太匪夷所思的一個數字他沒有辦法沒有地方去根據他的那個海岸的那個防護計畫有沒有那個量體過大已經超過他能夠堆放的這個量"},{"start":5851.384,"end":5871.147,"text":"這是第一個,第二個部分就是因為南寮玉廣本身跟它的頭前溪不斷地有沒有,淤刷下來是有關聯的當你一次性地在挖的時候它會類似有一個凹洞讓上游的更快地下來所以反而就是雖然說你一次性的清淤"},{"start":5872.697,"end":5872.877,"text":"對,我們一定會"},{"start":5897.517,"end":5897.537,"text":"我應該這麼講齁"},{"start":5913.91,"end":5937.092,"text":"應該分兩個階段,一個階段是年度的例行,因為每年都有一些預計,年度的預計我就不講了但是我們現在雖然說沒有辦法一次性的把它清預,但是我也希望把它有更短的時間之內把它清預那更重要的是我們會跟源頭的頭前期這個部分看怎麼樣能夠防止它的那個河沙沖刷下來"},{"start":5938.253,"end":5966.505,"text":"這樣的話,我想短時間之內...你講這部分比較長,其實我會連續兩次質詢都特別提到南寮漁港,因為它確實對於整個新竹南寮漁港的情況實在是太嚴重了我想直接問一下,因為目前我們大概是每兩年只有2500萬,後來再提高到4900萬的一個清淤的一個計畫之後我們可以每年補助4000萬以上,可不可以先承諾這個部分?"},{"start":5968.049,"end":5968.454,"text":"我覺得齁"},{"start":5970.85,"end":5998.405,"text":"經費一定是配合它的清預量,如果清預量大於4千萬,我們都願意去來協助這個部分。大於4千萬的時候也繼續每年去補助對不對?但是那個4千萬可能只是一個原則,因為我想後續的那個經費編列我們會努力來做。好,就每年4千萬補助是一個原則,對不對?如果說有需要還可以再增加,您剛的意思是這樣子?對,如果量度說危及到整個航道安全的時候,該做的我們還是會做。"},{"start":6000.346,"end":6023.414,"text":"我在想說185萬噸的淤砂在南寮漁港其實沒有很大我們看到這照片的時候確實是非常的糟糕另外我想提一個狀態在現在我們如果每一年能夠補助至少4000萬以上的經費在這個清淤的過程當中我們有沒有辦法有一艘抽砂船"},{"start":6024.874,"end":6044.666,"text":"長期配合南寮漁港這邊的一個使用您所謂的抽刷船是我們可以委託人家來做但是因為抽刷船它需要很多的專業以我們漁業組本身沒有辦法用公務單位去處理這個抽刷船部長我問一下一艘抽刷船要多少錢"},{"start":6046.889,"end":6055.176,"text":"我 我不是很瞭解不曉得齁 我要給你一個很簡單的一個數字齁我特別去看了一下齁就是 呃"},{"start":6059.414,"end":6085.614,"text":"海洋委員會他們這邊的時候之前有很多的抽砂船扣在那邊那最近有一艘抽砂船我會看到我也很震驚他叫展勝98號噸位在2820噸結果呢他是屬於可以自吸自泄的就是說基本上操作是相對容易的結果呢船名只有12年他拍掉的金額只有688萬"},{"start":6087.915,"end":6108.898,"text":"一艘這樣的一個抽砂船只拍掉688萬我們農業部有沒有可能去跟海委會做一個溝通因為海委會覺得這個部分他們是可能會來當公務使用的他們也願意這麼去做我們是不是能跟海委會溝通把這樣的抽砂船拿來支持南苗漁港的清淤"},{"start":6110.54,"end":6133.348,"text":"部長我跟委員說明現在目前所扣的這些船大部分拍賣以後去做解體去用他有很多的使用可以使用那剛才委員所提到就是說有沒有辦法去跟那個海委會去洽談其中的一艘要拍賣的船來用來做輕魚用那我想因為我剛才說的就是"},{"start":6134.008,"end":6158.018,"text":"公部門直接去買一艘船來執行這些清淤我覺得在人力上在技術上都不可行但是我們可以去協調就是用比較低的價格就是用招標的方式就是委託相關的未來會清淤的部分我們能夠協助他來購買這樣的一個這樣的一個船來執行專案的方式所以你也表示說用船殺船來協助"},{"start":6159.699,"end":6184.377,"text":"南寮漁港在還沒有辦法一次性起運的過程當中的時候能夠維持它整個航道的一個順暢讓它港口就是不會有這麼嚴重的淤積你也同意這樣一個做法我們會去研議跟內部最主要是內政部還有一位這邊我們要跟他做一個確認是因為他們拍賣有他們拍賣的遊戲規則那有沒有辦法去好部長謝謝因為我在想說南寮漁港的情況實在是太嚴重了所以我們希望"},{"start":6185.538,"end":6209.255,"text":"就是農業部這邊的時候能夠盡最大的一個努力那我們也會持續的去跟蹤然後能夠把這個相關的問題能夠解決那我最後這邊的時候來問一個部分就是因為我有看到你在媒體當中你有特別提到說整個農業臺灣農業不是補助型的產業嘛對不對你說如果說不然的話就發發錢的時候讓那個"},{"start":6211.216,"end":6232.492,"text":"農民拍拍手就可以你講過這樣的一個話嗎?我講過那我這邊特別提到兩個一個數字啦因為我稍微看了一下我們中央政府113年的總預算稅出的部分按照職能和經濟性的綜合分類扣除掉農保職災健保補助這些跟農民漁民相關的社福支出的時候在農林漁牧業的總支出高達1715億"},{"start":6235.394,"end":6249.081,"text":"如果按照我們農業部網站的時候我國的農業就業人口大概只有50.91萬人那除起來的時候我們大概國家的時候大概每一年花在農民的資源大概高達34萬"},{"start":6252.584,"end":6265.801,"text":"相較於我們113年總預算5.85兆平均到每一個國人大概是有12.39萬相較起來說就是我們國家對於農民的一個"},{"start":6267.483,"end":6290.032,"text":"支持其實是高於全國平均的大概高達三倍那我講這個數字的時候呢並不是說我們對農民太好了不是我是要講的狀態是當你如果也意識到了說臺灣的農業不是補助型的一個農產業的時候呢我們就希望他能夠做得更好讓臺灣的農業更有競爭力我們經常在講說臺灣的農業很厲害可是我們看到臺灣的農業一年的"},{"start":6296.234,"end":6320.788,"text":"對外的進出口量的時候其實是逆差很嚴重尤其我在看到一個數字的時候是針對新南向政策當中的時候情況更糟對於整個新南向政策在農業部分的表現其實非常的不理想那我希望請部長這邊到時候給我一個更詳細的資料來告訴我們一下"},{"start":6325.39,"end":6326.551,"text":"我可不可以給我30秒就好?"},{"start":6326.551,"end":6326.731,"text":"可以"},{"start":6348.78,"end":6375.22,"text":"台灣的,剛才您所提到的就是我們農業部的總投入然後去處理人民是造成這個每一個人得到的那個金額其實我們很多農業部的補助大概都是在基礎環境的一個建設那那個基礎環境的建設就是要讓農業本身的效率更提升然後第二個部分是天然災害它不是一個補助它是一個救助現在目前直接發給農民的就是天然災害救助它是遇到天然災害的部分"},{"start":6375.76,"end":6387.41,"text":"而這個部分如果你前端不去協助他盡快復更的話其實後端的消費者他得到的這些物價的波動會更劇烈以上所以對於整個農業特別生活基金的部分還有一些相關就業基金的部分的時候我們其實也去做了一些檢討"},{"start":6403.604,"end":6421.877,"text":"我簡單講就是整個農業助業基金這幾年來的一個狀態完全是不足的部分沒有移除的部分在108年以前都是有的108到109年有一個很大的改變我想這個部分也之後再到本辦公室來做一個詳細的說明謝謝"},{"start":6428.732,"end":6430.815,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":6455.852,"end":6458.876,"text":"農民退休儲金到今年的4月"},{"start":6473.444,"end":6488.992,"text":"有10.6萬人參加農民退休儲金參加的比例31%這樣的比例你的目標是35%其實不算高是不是這樣"},{"start":6492.168,"end":6521.768,"text":"我想整個農民退休儲金在開始的時候一般我們推行一個制度開始會比較緩慢因為有些人對這個政策不是那麼認識然後也不知道政府的態度是怎麼樣子但是經過這幾年來其實他的目標量其實已經達到我們的一個預期因為現在目前農保65歲以下大概36萬人所以現在大概10萬人的部分我想達到我們當初一個設定的一個目標所以我們未來會更希望都能夠再逐步的一個提高"},{"start":6522.428,"end":6541.006,"text":"好,我們看原住民,原住民農民參加農民退休儲金的人數我們看整個這個未滿65歲繼原住民身份的農保的人數是13694人"},{"start":6545.063,"end":6565.496,"text":"那有參加提交農民儲金的原住民人數只有783人這個比例只有5.7%這個比例真的是非常非常的低我們看這個人口數最多的話這個就有"},{"start":6567.537,"end":6595.339,"text":"農保的話如果有農保的在臺東縣2845人未滿65歲的那這個他參加提繳農退儲金的人數原住民人數只有159人所以這個比例真的是差距很大所以這樣的一個也許是先導的問題也許是什麼是不是繳不出"},{"start":6596.642,"end":6611.084,"text":"還是不了解不了解就是先導先導的問題所以這個部分這個農業部這邊有什麼可以讓這個提角力能夠提高的方法"},{"start":6611.878,"end":6626.1,"text":"我想第一個就是其實農業部現在正在規劃針對原住民的一個農業的政策因為原住民其實他守護了這片山林其實他是有貢獻的但是因為原住民的部落他是分散在"},{"start":6628.002,"end":6628.102,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6647.045,"end":6675.185,"text":"因為他對於政策了解了以後他才會有加入的一個意願那這個部分我想我們未來一定會更加的一個努力好,剛才部長的回應確實非常好就是說這個事實上我們確實是比較善機啦在沿鄉地區尤其是這個山區的部分是善機這個在宣傳上如果只靠一張的文宣是沒有辦法"},{"start":6676.145,"end":6688.978,"text":"去讓農民去了解所以這個部分怎麼樣去拖過各種的管道比如說除了剛才部長所說的管道之外最基礎的"},{"start":6691.294,"end":6707.539,"text":"因為農會他也是人力有限所以怎麼樣去透過這個鄉公所鄉政公所還有這個村里長然後就是這個鄉公所"},{"start":6711.334,"end":6730.839,"text":"也有一些我們的相關的這些顏名會相關的顏家中心、家庭服務中心、家庭服務中心的他們可以多一些管道讓這個原住民的農民能夠了解,不然他這個真的是太低了,就很可惜了,對不對"},{"start":6732.439,"end":6757.737,"text":"所以這個部分就請農業部可以會同延民會去協助,來去落實接下來工糧收購這個部分我們的召委在今年的3月4日在這裡質詢希望工糧收購價能夠提高到38塊"},{"start":6760.319,"end":6781.702,"text":"當天這個部長就說要再去做研提方案 這個立法院也有這樣的一個委員會的一個結議請你們去研議所以當時部長是說一個月提出這個方案請問現在方案如何?"},{"start":6783.803,"end":6800.439,"text":"我想之前在代理部長的時候其實農業部也提了一個方案根據立法院的要求提了一個方案那那個方案我們是覺得他不適合提高供糧收購但是我在這邊也跟委員說明就是說因為"},{"start":6801.96,"end":6827.728,"text":"陸陸續續有更多的委員針對這個議題表達他的關切那其實我們共同的目標就是怎麼樣讓我們的農民還有稻農的所得確保或者提高那在這個共同目標之下我們現在正在做非常多的方案的評估公糧的價格提高只是方案之一就是一個選項但是它不是一個唯一的選項我們有沒有"},{"start":6828.388,"end":6828.708,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6849.62,"end":6868.952,"text":"政策如果確定了以後我想我們會先行政程序向跟行政院好就是抱怨然後同意了以後我們就會在適當的時間會公佈公佈之前一定會跟所有的委員做一個溝通部長這個要掌握時間我所謂的掌握時間是因為"},{"start":6870.954,"end":6895.711,"text":"現在開始要籌編明年的預算了現在開始要籌編這個行政的程序、流程、主計總署還有相關的部會、行政院、院會要通過所以這個部分是要掌握那個時間好不好?了解好,最後這個老年農民福利津貼從民國84年5月到現在"},{"start":6900.779,"end":6903.887,"text":"都還在到目前為止還在暫行條例"},{"start":6905.912,"end":6932.478,"text":"戰刑條例本來它就是一個有階段性的但是現在已經是常態了所以這個法律也要修了就不要再繼續戰刑了這直接就是一個老年農民福利津貼的條例所以這個部分這個是一個立法最起碼也要把它完成的部分可以嗎?"},{"start":6934.115,"end":6934.135,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":6952.892,"end":6952.912,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":6970.557,"end":6983.316,"text":"所以那個時候我想行政院也會通盤的去考量而且這個考量一定有它的一個衡平性跟其他的八大福利津貼去做一個衡量這是第一個要說明的第二個部分就是以農業部來講"},{"start":6985.206,"end":7002.241,"text":"農民福利津貼是一個支撐農民退休以後的生活那我們現在有了一個另外一個農民退休儲金那如果說以農民退休儲金的方式再去做支撐的時候我相信未來一定會比單純去領老農福利津貼的金額還高"},{"start":7003.542,"end":7003.562,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":7035.243,"end":7058.689,"text":"謝謝那接下來我們請賴亮榮委員賴亮榮發言前剛剛署長你有回答我們政委員公糧的問題因為這個議題在藍綠白大家都非常的關心而且我們也已經做成決議已經交付到院會去準備繼續討論我們也希望不要否決多數人的一個決議這個應該要注意來我們請賴亮榮委員請發言謝謝"},{"start":7064.35,"end":7088.497,"text":"謝謝主席請陳部長我們再請陳部長部長我有整個看了你的這個業務報告我想這也是過去整個8年來到現在一個延續包括未來要做的一些計畫那裡面我覺得是確實把這8年來做的一些事情跟未來想要做的事做了很好的一個延續"},{"start":7089.657,"end":7113.383,"text":"我想多數的內容我都是贊同的也認可的那我只是一個期許就是說很多同仁在做很多事的時候其實還是要加強在對外的一個宣傳特別現在的假的訊息或各方面的很多的時候往往一個小的就有可能去影響到你整個很多正面而做的很好的事情上我覺得同仁這麼辛苦做了這麼多的事還是要多努力讓外界去知道"},{"start":7114.143,"end":7140.498,"text":"我希望這個未來還要是持續的不斷加強不要讓一些不實的一些狀況去打起到了大家努力的一個成果我裡面看了一下你這一次我覺得提出來我非常認同就是說農業基本法因為做一個農業部會其實我們不管是在文化基本法、教育基本法甚至那時候我也推了海洋基本法也已經通過了甚至有各樣那我覺得農業部其實應該有一個三位的基本法"},{"start":7141.418,"end":7162.548,"text":"上位基本法出來之後那下面才有各各項的一些法律不然過去如果單靠50年的一個農法條例的一個來訂定我認為其實是不夠周年也不夠具有比較高的格局的所以部長應該也是這樣的思考下來來推動對我想謝謝委員支持農業基本法基本上他是一個綱領性的一個政策的一個法案"},{"start":7163.528,"end":7182.418,"text":"在這個農業基本資料它是以比較宏觀的角度去撥劃農業的長期的一個發展方向那有的長期發展方向的話就可以對接我們每4年的這種農業的施政的這些政策還有相關對應的這些作用法的一個制定所以它是一個引領性的一個法案"},{"start":7183.959,"end":7199.114,"text":"108年我想我們是上一次提出來的在行政院的時候就希望說能夠多溝通我們也檢視了108年那個版本裡面有幾個重點就是兩次安全的確保包括整個的一個農業競爭力的提升還有農業資源怎麼樣維護甚至於農村的發展"},{"start":7201.536,"end":7229.773,"text":"可是經過這個5年來其實實在在變化農業的環境也在變化所以相對的有很多更重要的議題包括我們怎麼樣讓年輕人能夠能夠進到農業而且願意世世代代從事農業所以農民的福利制度其實應該更有一些琢磨的空間另外農業的近鄰他可以做得更好那農業的本身的發展農村的發展其實要更上位所以我們未來會把這些"},{"start":7231.073,"end":7253.918,"text":"這些相關的新的這些思維納到農業基本法裡面因為過去來我也參與到了不管是環境基本法或海洋基本法的立法的過程所以我認為一個上位計畫出來之後會把整個此計畫定得更明確的時候其實會把整個部會的格局拉出來那我認為其實在推動上會更加有力那我也期待這樣的一個農業基本法能盡快來完成比出來盡快來完成三讀"},{"start":7254.878,"end":7278.091,"text":"我看一下你的期程,裡面你的期程是抓4年,其實4年,一屆就是4年,屆期不連續,我想最後都可能會落為來不及,我其實是希望我可以比3年為一個目標那萬一有任何的一些狀況的時候,還有機會在這一屆的立委的任內的時候把這個立法院完成三度,我認為這個對於農業部的整體發展是一個重要的事情"},{"start":7278.431,"end":7280.212,"text":"我想部長也都一直在支持的前鎮漁港的各項的一些建設"},{"start":7304.707,"end":7330.785,"text":"現在其實大家最關注的也是多功能水產品的運銷中心其他陸續都在完成那這個它進度有一些落後當然跟原物料跟人力的一些有相關我們希望這個進度上面還是要持續來追蹤那其實我更關心的一個點是在於未來之後這個起來之後它的營運一定要找到好的廠商我也講過非常多次啦那我也希望部長現在上任之後"},{"start":7331.545,"end":7354.298,"text":"未來的這個大宗運輸系統能不能進去會是一個也是一個重要的一個關鍵我覺得一個關鍵我希望未來部長一樣持續的跟院長跟保安交通部長持續溝通爭取好不好這個會對於整個捷運黃線延伸進到前鎮漁港這件事情會讓前鎮漁港的這個能不能像真的像豐州市長那樣有一個很好的發展效果也會起一個很重要的一個影響"},{"start":7355.018,"end":7380.626,"text":"對,我想謝謝委員的提醒我想那個運輸系統的進入才能夠真正的活絡那個區域我們除了會跟行政院這邊去做溝通我想我們也會跟高雄市這邊來做一個有效的溝通還有交通部還有政府都要溝通徵求到他們的共同來支持我覺得建設都是百年的建設做得好做得完整的話其實對於整個發展都有相當大的幫助遠洋漁業是臺灣最重要的產業之一"},{"start":7384.087,"end":7410.657,"text":"﹗"},{"start":7411.107,"end":7436.793,"text":"我想我們會先看它這樣的一個方案是不是已經有外國的這些廠商或者什麼有那個興趣啦我們會隨時關切這些有興趣的這些利害關係人然後看看說需要不需要說而且部長還是要去了解潛在的可能性的廠商如果你來問了各種好的潛在性的廠商都沒有意願那顯然我們的條件必須要再做一些調整好不好"},{"start":7437.693,"end":7463.864,"text":"最重要是要找到強而有能力的一個廠商那這樣的話它的發展就會非常順利如果找來的是不夠優秀、不夠強的廠商其實後面會有很多很辛苦的對 這個也是我們最擔心的好不好 這個一定不必要當政府做了這麼多努力的時候我覺得每一個環節都要把它扣減這樣才有可能讓我們期待的這樣的一個豐洲市場台灣的豐洲市場這樣的一個計畫能夠成功"},{"start":7465.205,"end":7486.923,"text":"好再來我想請教一下其實這段時間其實假訊息一直也都是農業部很辛苦的一個工作那往往很多的網路上面常常會傳遞很多假訊息那大概都是同仁去海巡去找到一些之後然後用新聞稿來發布但是我還是要強調這樣的效果其實是非常有限的然後看新聞稿非常有限你在事後去賭的那個稿非常有限"},{"start":7487.943,"end":7514.694,"text":"訴發部現在在關心這件事情包括各個單位我希望部長還是要持續的去跟訴發部跟相關部會對於平台業者他們該承擔起的責任的部分我認為應該要去做要求有很多的部分我們一看就知道那個是個假的或甚至有高度有爭議性的那其實在平台業者就應該把他給擋住了不管他是詐欺還是假訊息他的平台業者都有相關的一些責任如果他們善盡了他們責任的話"},{"start":7516.435,"end":7538.653,"text":"不會在後端就不會這麼的辛苦那造假的訊息其實是所有業者所有的大家共同都要有責任去防堵的要不然你的造假東西一堆然後網路丟了一堆然後你後面要去光整耗掉一堆人力來處理這些造假訊息然後甚至對農民產生的影響對政府的公信產生影響我認為這個都非常的不公平也都應該要及早處理"},{"start":7539.453,"end":7562.43,"text":"謝謝委員那據我所知道就是在新的內閣團隊的群組裡面其實速速發布已經在處理這一塊怎麼樣讓平台的假訊息更及早的發現特別是有一些部會首長被當作投資的對象有沒有像那樣的一個假訊息其實已經政府現在慢慢有一個速發布那邊有一個機制跟平台就對接所以我想這個部分我想"},{"start":7562.91,"end":7578.248,"text":"我意思是說請部長要跟蘇法部跟平台業者要去溝通就是說對於跟你比較有相關的大概是在於這個農業的相關的部分對一些假訊息他一出去丟出去可能會造成農產品價格的波動或農民的一些影響那這個部分應該要求平台業者要"},{"start":7579.089,"end":7581.211,"text":"總統節快要到了問一下豬肉包相關的市場這些價格部分都沒有問題吧"},{"start":7599.423,"end":7624.073,"text":"我想現在的價格,豬肉的價格大概八幾九塊上下我想大概跟去年來講差不多甚至比它還低一點,比較便宜一點那整個的一個應景的這些豬肉、雞肉包括它的增工量都會提高到百分之十到二十像豬的話可能會到兩萬兩千頭每天的部分所以這個部分我一定會確保端午節本身"},{"start":7624.773,"end":7625.394,"text":"接下來我們請謝一芬委員請做詢問"},{"start":7657.883,"end":7659.506,"text":"謝謝主席 我想要請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":7667.52,"end":7691.64,"text":"部長好,你在4月23日的就任記者會你說要把農業的剩餘的這些剩餘物支援化、能源化那你知不知道像我們彰化市稻米就是大宗的縣市那稻草也可以支援化,你知不知道?"},{"start":7692.842,"end":7706.22,"text":"我這裡舉例台東的那個農場有將稻草製成就是固體的燃料SRF這樣子的這是一種方式那你有沒有考慮在彰化做"},{"start":7709.642,"end":7724.462,"text":"就是種稻以後的剩餘物大概兩類一類是稻草一類是稻殼那稻殼我們現在有很多這種粗糠爐有沒有他去做燃燒的這些燃料所以這個部分我想以前稻殼還要找人家來收要給他錢"},{"start":7725.043,"end":7755.043,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7755.403,"end":7758.685,"text":"對,要分類啦,要先做分類的部分所以我們希望說去建構那樣的一個集貨的這個"},{"start":7778.939,"end":7804.066,"text":"的一個系統那這樣的話其實我們講了很久了欸其實從我第一任期裡面我們就我們現在跟彰化縣政府已經有在合作了其實有一個部分透過如果透過公所的這些回收車也好就不會浪費太多的更多的資源那我們在嘉義的東石針對農謀跟塑膠布也有一個回收機制"},{"start":7805.206,"end":7818.718,"text":"可是農作物的種類非常多所以怎麼樣子把不同的種類可以共同的集合起來能源化這是非常重要的議題我為什麼舉稻草因為其實在我們彰化也有很多的民眾他們了解了日本他們製作榻榻米的時候需要這個稻草"},{"start":7832.329,"end":7855.69,"text":"他們也希望說能夠出口台灣的稻草到日本去日本也有這樣的意願農業部有沒有辦法就這個部分做任何的協助因為如果能夠把它做成一個更高價值的東西相對的也是提高這些種稻的農民的"},{"start":7857.671,"end":7857.691,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":7873.326,"end":7900.717,"text":"日本本身並沒有去宣布我們是非疫區的這些產地的時候稻草是不能輸出的因為他們怕稻草用在這些續產業的電料那我們現在正在積極的去跟日本透過那個協會兩邊的協會去處理所以是因為又牽涉到農牧的部分?對對對沒有牽涉到一些口蹄疫的非疫區非疫國"},{"start":7901.837,"end":7905.179,"text":"對,所以我們現在正在積極地尋求這一塊。那現在可以出去的大概都要加熱啦。"},{"start":7920.708,"end":7939.428,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":7939.528,"end":7963.69,"text":"我們應該要把整體的就是整個工業鏈然後怎麼樣的商業模式建立好因為畢竟一般的小農或一般的農民他是沒有辦法建構整個系統的那所以在農村的這些剩餘物的資源化以及能源化的這個課題上面我認為政府部門需要負擔很大的責任"},{"start":7964.13,"end":7985.607,"text":"因為如果大家沒有你沒有把它的商業模式建構好那讓每一個小農都成為這個商業模式裡面的一個參與者這才能夠讓整個我們的農村的永續發展可以比得上就是說比先進的國家更好是不是我想謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":7986.653,"end":8008.906,"text":"如果單純這種小農自己去做資源再利用它的效率非常低所以怎麼樣把小農串在一起變成一個大的所以我們現在在推的集團產區就是這樣的一個概念那你集團產區再透過一些有系統的運輸系統那就能夠把這些剩餘資材集結在一起那才有機會去做它的能源化材料化等"},{"start":8010.077,"end":8026.105,"text":"我還有一個問題就是陳吉仲是農業部的前部長所以我相信他一定非常了解你們的情況他說臺灣的農業的重電都是用來賣的而不是農業致用的那這個問題怎麼改善"},{"start":8033.134,"end":8049.139,"text":"我想現在這個牽涉到本身的使用到農地的本身的光電的產生的電他是賣給台電然後台電再送到依照他的需求就做調節但是有一部分的"},{"start":8051.092,"end":8074.793,"text":"光電它是可以自用的。那這個部分我想未來農業部會推的特別是在漁村。漁村不管你是屋頂型的或是你在這邊有一些產製除消的這些光電我們希望是能夠在漁村自用。這是我們努力的目標。那相對的現在的漁電共生本身的光電都是送到台電去等於賣電的部分。"},{"start":8075.919,"end":8076.219,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8100.156,"end":8120.325,"text":"會不會造成文革的收成不好?因為畢竟文革是一個非常敏感的水產品有可能會就是不曉得有時候水溫的高低或者是不曉得是氣溫的變化太大都有可能影響到產量"},{"start":8122.025,"end":8140.28,"text":"現在陸域的風機會不會造成影響?我上次要求水事所希望他可以做相關的評估報告我跟您說明那個報告我們跟平科大已經在做研究了因為他們有低頻的研究所那低頻有時候對我們人不一定可能影響跟對於"},{"start":8141.601,"end":8142.162,"text":"我想我們會堅持"},{"start":8165.094,"end":8165.955,"text":"接下來我們請張家俊委員請做詢答"},{"start":8191.77,"end":8214.297,"text":"主席我想請陳部長我們再請陳部長我們中間中場不休息所以請畢位人士如果要身體管理的請自行處理部長昨天本院三讀通過國會改革法案那這其中有一件事情跟農業部是息息相關部長您知道是哪一件事情嗎"},{"start":8215.785,"end":8219.668,"text":"主要是這個雞蛋的問題就是說2022年農委會由續產會自巴西日本進口了大量的雞蛋後續被爆出資本額只有50萬的一人公司竟然可以接下1.75億雞蛋的進口案那到底呢"},{"start":8240.306,"end":8266.916,"text":"就是讓人民非常的好奇總計有近6億的雞蛋專案進口到底都是哪些公司在進口那竟然就是都以機密為由拒絕提供就多次像這個農業部調閱進口的詳細資料那農業部也都拒絕提供本席在此再請問部長雞蛋進口的資料真的是國家機密嗎?"},{"start":8267.876,"end":8292.491,"text":"不過我想跟委員說明當初去年3月的時候專案忌口農業部是委託中央巨產會去執行這樣的一個任務那在相關的這些資訊的部分我在歷史的委員會都提到只要是農業部能夠拿得到的我們一定會提供但是有時候會牽扯到一些合約上面的一些雙門本身"},{"start":8293.151,"end":8293.872,"text":"人民納稅的血汗錢買雞蛋"},{"start":8315.231,"end":8338.103,"text":"是哪些廠商負責．跟哪些廠商買．國會不能監督．人民不能過問．這樣會不會太荒謬．所以本席在這裡還是正式的再次要求．農業部應該把雞蛋採購的相關細節提供給本委員會部長您同意嗎我想第一個部分合約的部分在去年那個"},{"start":8339.224,"end":8340.165,"text":"所以可以再一次提供給本委員會嗎?是不是?請部長"},{"start":8359.033,"end":8367.958,"text":"另外本席也想再請問一下部長就是說部長今天早上說蛋價要下降要下調這一點可以請部長解釋一下為什麼嗎我沒有說蛋價要下調"},{"start":8373.669,"end":8388.625,"text":"有啊報紙都出來了啊報紙全部都出來說部長建議要調降蛋價不是我說現在的雞蛋的產地價格已經比去年的最高點已經降了大概10塊是那相對的因為"},{"start":8389.446,"end":8410.08,"text":"因為雞蛋現在的需求比較少一點所以相對它有點減我是希望消費地消費地零售的這些雞蛋的價格你這樣突然一講你會造成蛋農的恐慌欸是消費地本身因為它的雞蛋的產地價格已經比最高的已經降到10塊但是並沒有反映到消費端"},{"start":8412.159,"end":8415.322,"text":"所以我希望消費端的雞蛋對對就是消費地的雞蛋對我不知道哪個委員寫錯哪個記者寫錯我想我們後續會盡快的澄清趕快去澄清那農業部編有友善環境"},{"start":8431.658,"end":8447.582,"text":"這個植物保護資材補助的計畫透過補助來鼓勵農民使用生物農藥但是跟去年一樣大概在今年年中左右經費就會用完了那去年這個計畫其實7、8月的時候有再增列經費讓農民申請請問部長這個計畫今年是不是能夠再增列經費呢?"},{"start":8453.323,"end":8479.213,"text":"我想第一個就是生物農藥跟生物肥料本身是我們一直要推的有剩環境的一個重要制裁那我們年度編列的預算大概是6100多萬左右我們會根據就是下半年我們會根據實際的需求如果說它有必要去增加的時候我們就會 確實有實際的需求本席現在已經接受到非常多的農民說他們想要申請可是計畫的經費已經用完了那現在怎麼辦呢"},{"start":8481.994,"end":8508.022,"text":"下半年的經費怎麼辦呢?我跟委員說明就是我們原度的預算我們到某個時間點如果已經快要結束的話就會先暫停因為我們沒有辦法一直花然後還沒有經費來源就先花超過了那本席在這裡建議部長明年度這個經費一定要提高這個經費可見就是不夠嘛所以另外呢部長我還想要請問你公糧收購的價格公糧收購"},{"start":8511.463,"end":8538.834,"text":"您在520之前說520之後會定案請問您最後的決定如何可不可以在這裡做下一個記錄我想到目前為止我們正在做更完整的一個配套的一個措施我想我們委員跟我們農業部其實目標是一致的就是希望我們的稻農希望我們農民所得能夠提高能夠確保這是共同的目標那提高公糧收購是一個手段之一"},{"start":8539.774,"end":8564.36,"text":"我們是不是還有其他的手段粉絲非常了解你的立場就是說這幾天你接受了媒體專訪你說要提供公糧收購價格是提供這個農民收入的一個辦法但不是最好的辦法你要鼓勵農民去做氣做生產去做品牌去經營市場我不是不理解不是不了解你的看法但是我有一個感覺你知道台語有一句話叫做就是說拿公糧收購來"},{"start":8569.301,"end":8575.182,"text":"形容這個部長的看法我想就是你鼓勵去企作嘗試去做品牌經營市場這個都是利益良好的事情但你有沒有想到說有更多的農民尤其是傳統慣性農業的農民他們只仰賴保駕收購當作是一個底線本席今天就是在替這些最弱勢沒有能力去經營品牌"},{"start":8594.266,"end":8594.286,"text":"部長："},{"start":8615.081,"end":8623.348,"text":"我想我能夠充分的瞭解委員所提到的照顧這些大概10%全部繳公糧的這些稻農但是相對的當我們去看這個產業的時候我們要看整體的產業的進步性但是公糧收購價格跟契作價格是連動的公糧收購價格提高契作價格也會提高鼓勵農民契作跟提高公糧收購價格其實是沒有衝突的除非你的立場是要保護糧商"},{"start":8644.784,"end":8660.488,"text":"現在保護糧商不要花更多的錢去買 這才是問題所在嗎我還是很清楚的跟委員講 我們正在做所有的方案的一個評估並精算它的一個措施 那您剛才講的就是說假設這個企作的價格是高的"},{"start":8663.829,"end":8685.103,"text":"就算公糧收購價格提高了也不影響企作所以看待一件事情其實是有很多面向的一個政策當然會有利有弊人家說在人在公門好修行部長看向企作品牌稻米產業時請你也要同時兼顧最底層最基層的這些稻農的生計"},{"start":8685.723,"end":8685.743,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":8715.492,"end":8716.893,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請陳昌明委員"},{"start":8751.003,"end":8775.51,"text":"主席好,首先有請我們陳部長。我們再請陳部長。部長、部長。部長、部長。首先跟你恭喜、尊賜。其實你代理部長期間也表現得不錯,很務實、很實際的在處理所有的農業問題。"},{"start":8777.421,"end":8796.988,"text":"那今天我執行以前剛剛信用委員有談到光電合作的問題那我本來是很反對光電在農地上做光電但是我看到蓋的矮矮的話把警官都破壞掉了那我也很好奇"},{"start":8798.004,"end":8823.714,"text":"我朋友就邀我投資了一些我就去投資了一些他這個蓋得高高阿裡面是種植食材而且種植得非常成功五分地的土地可以種到9到12萬公斤這樣五分地一年成利潤是90萬而且他跟在地的農會農會配額銷到由農會轉出去的"},{"start":8828.312,"end":8848.77,"text":"我想從反對農地種觀點但是真的把農業種出來的時候我覺得要鼓勵你有興趣的時候我帶你們去參觀一下種得非常成功所謂臺灣的農業科技也是真的有一套"},{"start":8849.871,"end":8874.549,"text":"所以這一點如果能在大力的推展的話我相信對付極端氣候還有那個菜的穩定啊會幫忙非常大啊你看法怎麼樣我想我們現在的光電本身在農地上面就是在溫室齁溫室附屬這些光電其實它的成功率非常高而且它的收益也會更好"},{"start":8875.117,"end":8903.402,"text":"我覺得要這樣子來推展才有效要蓋的低低的啦那種都是只有想要用電來賺錢啦他這個電可以賺那個融資和物也可以賺到錢這才是互蒙其利好不好這一點我帶你去參觀一下要大力的推展那你在代理部長期間也答應了我很多的事情"},{"start":8905.178,"end":8927.455,"text":"那裡面有龍鳳漁港漁獲直銷中心改建的設計費970萬還有我們各漁港的清漁費用2900多萬將近7000萬到現在都還沒下來還有我到下鄉的時候每一個人問我到底有沒有我說520以後就有啦"},{"start":8930.06,"end":8952.531,"text":"你這個會員敢請我完整嗎?我跟委員報告,你剛才說的這些融物漁館的整體的那個規劃跟他的一個,那補助的,他補助673萬他們結案報告都結案了,都提出來,所以我們有補助,不是沒有然後第二個部分,針對這個整體規劃其實我們基本上是同意的,那在同意的過程中"},{"start":8953.311,"end":8958.338,"text":"他有分期分階段嗎?不是,我先講社區費用社區費用有嗎?老闆這三萬已經提供了"},{"start":8962.523,"end":8973.166,"text":"應該是673萬嘛。673萬啊。九百多萬嘛。673萬。你怎麼給我減三分之一,我不知道要怎麼完成。我們來對一下,對一下。總經費可能是高包幾萬,但是農業部不是全額補,因為地方政府,大家分攤一下嘛。分攤苗栗比較重,這樣分攤三分之一也受不了啦。"},{"start":8988.251,"end":9004.582,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9004.941,"end":9025.141,"text":"主委在推動的時候苗栗沒有生存到那我覺得這個很重要那我們中東景縣長為了推動我們苗栗的能量物流大概要花1億的經費去買土地買土地的時候您這個能量物流拜託拜託給我們完成一下好不好"},{"start":9025.763,"end":9041.9,"text":"我跟委員報告就是第一期的冷鏈計畫在今年度結束嘛那今年度的預算大概因為很多冷鏈都是分年編列的那我們今年我們也提報了從114到117年我們提了第二期的冷鏈計畫"},{"start":9044.36,"end":9045.621,"text":"好 我拜託 請你幫我完成 我會很感謝你"},{"start":9067.509,"end":9092.672,"text":"那你這來進上的新聞那這邊有一篇中國時報的報導說你身段柔軟、務實理性你自有心中一把旗你不是股市的部長你微笑我們兩個個性差不多一樣都這樣 喉嚨撥起來在這裡面我把它看了"},{"start":9093.513,"end":9111.07,"text":"你的報告也寫了務實你有外部挑戰、內部挑戰我把它仔細看了一下確切實實的問題在這個地方但是我現在跟你講臺灣的農業問題會面臨到非常重大問題就是外來的農產品進來"},{"start":9112.972,"end":9130.37,"text":"因為我們以前是開發中的國家我們為了經濟雙邊貿易、多邊貿易、CPTPP我們自己宣稱我們已開發的國家那未來的規格就會像歐美、美國、日本、新加坡、澳"},{"start":9131.431,"end":9156.742,"text":"做紐西蘭一樣,農產品的進口裡面會大量的增加好好的營養只會我們不加制那些團體我們為了加制大概農業產品都是最低的程度沒有保護到沒有辦法保護到臺灣的農業所以你要先有營養這我第一點要提出來時間有限"},{"start":9158.595,"end":9171.427,"text":"那第二點剛剛談到公娘的收購你這個人老實不實我喜歡但是公娘的收購正如我們召委剛剛幾個委員在談"},{"start":9173.117,"end":9198.568,"text":"拜務上長通貨膨脹你農民不給氣了你說你反對我覺得這個你要考慮你部長要做的就好好考慮這樣我有看到你幾篇的報導我特別把它讀過但是有些是政治性的問題農業也是政治性的問題你官員要求好好思考這個問題那你如果覺得農"},{"start":9200.174,"end":9218.646,"text":"那個工糧收購架構提到大家會去種,你雜糧就補製多一點嘛,平衡一下,卡布瓦能解決,一定要好,好地思考這個問題。你要太固執喔,不然你工會做不久,我跟你講農民都反對你,你院長總統也做不了好不好。"},{"start":9221.708,"end":9238.578,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,我想我們會非常務實的去研擬那個方案好不好,好好的務實不要得罪農民像我們到那個地方我們都跟農民低頭了他們講什麼我們都要全力解決都是講好的還有一點"},{"start":9240.027,"end":9268.38,"text":"農村再生條例有一些不同黨派議員說什麼這個立法院輕視到公權力但是保證我告訴你我們有人都是精益其外敗事其中公路局我們的公路我們市區道路做得非常好但是我們農路真的破破爛爛在開車在跑農路的時候要打手機的支持區我都會抖"},{"start":9269.798,"end":9285.889,"text":"所謂來講你永遠一個觀念全不要怕都市做了太多了農村要照顧所以農村再生條例你永遠記得交通部有生活圈系統他是都市區外的"},{"start":9286.8,"end":9287.581,"text":"我們會努力的"},{"start":9312.908,"end":9324.942,"text":"講的到這個時候有很多問題要請教你看你的報告仔細讀你的業務報告之類我們農業未來面臨很多的挑戰務實去解決"},{"start":9327.355,"end":9327.495,"text":"好,謝謝委員"},{"start":9356.806,"end":9364.354,"text":"接下來我們請邱志偉委員請做詢答大家辛苦了"},{"start":9389.076,"end":9393.318,"text":"好謝謝主席請那個陳部長我們再請陳部長部長農業環境基本給付面積是今年11月186點上半年轉做棄作面積是5.8生產會計3.1那你針對農業環境基本給付的是針對是非非非都"},{"start":9419.258,"end":9419.278,"text":"現在會爐齊嗎?"},{"start":9449.005,"end":9468.86,"text":"沒有,現在我們大家一起在努力朝這個目標前進你了解你有參與我覺得好像會不會延期啦會,裡面是有一些很多配套的作用法要處理配套沒有完成你如期上路的話可能會造成很多的負面影響是有可能造成一些影響那我想請教說你現在只針對這個一般農業區對不對非洲的這個拓地農業區跟一般農業區他有針對這個幾戶那一年大概兩次各5000塊"},{"start":9476.986,"end":9491.904,"text":"那你未來我希望說是不是可以針對都市計畫區、農業區或非都的山墨地、百貨區、核酸用地這些部分你也可以有相關的這個給付我想這樣子因為"},{"start":9492.825,"end":9502.512,"text":"現在的農一農二已經劃出來的那農一農二如果說已經框了一些都市計劃裡面的農業區的部分我們會優先考慮因為以後可以對接會一定會一定會現在目前大概變也是一樣嗎?也是5000嗎?"},{"start":9512.56,"end":9535.468,"text":"我們現在是一起五千,那後續我想...不是,我要先跟委員說明喔當國土計畫上路農一農二的話,我們所有的政策的資源的投入會以這個為集中點甚至於有一些...就是打破所有非都,或者是一般農業區,或者都市計畫區的農業區打破這些,你用農一農二來做補助嗎?"},{"start":9536.748,"end":9560.245,"text":"對,然後那個政策一定會加碼,因為我要確保那個農地本身的農業部分所以農一農二就包括都市計劃區、都市計劃的農業區嘛,對不對?沒有,它有一部分看縣市政府劃的部分所以你要等你要配合這個這個國土計劃法上路之後再去調整嘛對那幾戶進而是也是一起五千,全年是對,現在是這樣子,但是後續一定會去調整,因為我們已經對外承諾"},{"start":9561.765,"end":9587.418,"text":"假設他會延期我是希望說針對都市計畫農業區我們會去專案檢討假設他要延期兩年再實施上路你對這部分我希望說我們就會專案去檢討如果你財源足夠的話你如果沒有辦法抓五千你也可以所以不用說四千、三千也可以考慮對,我們會用差異性的去處理這個議題用專案的方式"},{"start":9588.82,"end":9597.167,"text":"另外今天媒體有報導說蛋價滯銷、蛋價降、蛋價降然後它也是滯銷 那個有沒有什麼相關的做法?"},{"start":9598.389,"end":9625.86,"text":"我想剛才那個有委員提醒我說那我現在一個重點就是說因為現在目前的蛋大概是2420萬顆比罐還多所以我們現在是希望在雞舍的部分他能夠做一些老母雞的一個淘汰我知道那你我這我都了解啦你蛋自銷有蛋旺季嘛對不對像是這個蛋季然後這個主要他的成本高居不下是不是有這個問題"},{"start":9627.06,"end":9635.845,"text":"事料成本的部分他的事料成本齁我今天早上特別去看了一下現在的玉米跟大豆的成本大概是"},{"start":9639.304,"end":9659.131,"text":"我希望因為這個蛋商這個對飼料成本他有意見他說飼料成本太高我希望你做一個平台把蛋商這個把這個飼料業者也找來看看問題出在哪裡看他們的協議把這個比如說飼料成本把它降低來減少他的成本嘛"},{"start":9659.431,"end":9671.43,"text":"我跟委員說明今天早上我已經請畜牧師去找這些飼料工會的部分看看他們在整個的飼料成本的計算上面有沒有調降的空間因為過往已經降了26%了嘛你最"},{"start":9674.625,"end":9674.885,"text":"三方都協調．"},{"start":9690.786,"end":9706.233,"text":"報言的計劃已經核定了現在的是在執行細節第一個執行細節就是要花多少錢去我們漏農我們原報的是29億那行政院核定的是18.6億那其中差的是一個"},{"start":9707.253,"end":9718.738,"text":"就是除料有沒有,清除料的一個補助,那清除料的補助我們用另外一個方案來處理那另外一個就是學用來的補助我希望部長,你現在已經從代理變真廚了,你要為弱農著想"},{"start":9730.728,"end":9753.707,"text":"好另外這個農業政策的建議書你知道那個中研院我們在去年有公布的農業政策建議書未來也會變成你農地政策白皮書的相關的重點也會變成這個與外推動農業基本法立法的重點對不對對參考依據是好你這個"},{"start":9755.527,"end":9780.737,"text":"這些單位包括國科會環境部也有針對這個氣候變遷的應用法他有一些報告那萬一未來低溫可能狀況比較少高溫的狀況比較會普遍高溫對這個沿海養殖的魚種對文革是不利的但是對虱目魚是有利的你怎麼樣而且整個烏魚的漁獲量會因為漁場"},{"start":9783.078,"end":9783.359,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9799.941,"end":9821.486,"text":"跟農的部分還有魚的部分在討論特別是高溫的天數或頻度比較高的時候有些魚種會比較有利所以它的那個產區的位移可能要預先做準備那第二個部分就是沿海的部分它本身的漁場的監控那更加重要因為它往北移的時候到底移到哪邊"},{"start":9821.986,"end":9822.186,"text":"農民數位卡"},{"start":9838.943,"end":9854.295,"text":"農民數位卡的部分我們這樣子齁其實我們過去兩年在18項的那個農業關聯資料庫已經建立了那我們現在正在串接我們的農地的資料庫跟氣象的資料庫那我們會發行的不是實體卡是一個數位卡"},{"start":9855.914,"end":9876.24,"text":"這個數位卡的部分會跟網路銀行一樣第一個功能就是他的服務就是分兩個變相以後農民到公所去申請的時候其實少了他的專屬QR Code的時候他的基本資料跟他過往所種植的東西他會馬上呈現不用重新用紙筆填"},{"start":9877.04,"end":9877.18,"text":"農電2025會不會跳票?"},{"start":9892.194,"end":9906.599,"text":"我們因為農電的部分是整個政府的大政策我想我們會盡努力的去你的目標是2025達到9GW對不對9G嘛對那你現在達成率是多少現在大概是38啦38差不多38左右不到4喔"},{"start":9908.079,"end":9910.5,"text":"第一個部分就是現在不是地缺的問題"},{"start":9925.704,"end":9949.772,"text":"現在是就是農民在整個區域裡面有的農民願意配合有的農民不願意配合所以光電業者在跟農民的協調上面產生了很多的問題那另外一個部分就是他養殖的一個事實所以我們現在會重新去啟動一個機制就是光電下的這些養殖有沒有機會用集團栽培的方式由漁卿來協助"},{"start":9952.653,"end":9976.925,"text":"這個幾個方式、四大建議有很多媒體都有相關的研究那農業進入的路徑很明確對不對?然後呢小規模漸進來推展然後以地方創生為本那農電為地方創生來加值嘛這幾個方式都已經幫你提出了solution我希望針對這些solution你們趕快去研究怎麼樣去達成嘛那另外農地沒有人跟啊"},{"start":9977.705,"end":10005.421,"text":"缺工啊 這個狀況非常特別 你們要怎麼樣去把這個煤核的調度能夠加強你市場面積不斷上升嘛 但農業、農戶人口逐漸下降 這個狀況怎麼處理我想分兩個面向啊 一個面向是季節性的缺工 我們用能力來處理對 但是我們現在會更積極地用農事服務業 去來協助他的一些合配比率供不應求啦還是"},{"start":10006.348,"end":10031.184,"text":"我們現在是一萬兩千人,台河大概將近八千人還不到,還有四千個名額在那邊那四千名額主要是真的哪些產業?沒有,農糧的申請比較多,其他的反而申請的比較少是不是你推廣不夠,有很多人跟我反映說他這個都缺工都找不到,比方說這個漁業缺工啊,養殖業也缺工啊"},{"start":10032.489,"end":10052.03,"text":"我們漁業給他的名額他並沒有用完那是不是推廣不夠啊為什麼有很多人說這個根本已經移工還不夠不過移工本身可能有一部分是牽涉到後端的管理跟居住的問題那這個部分我想我們會更積極的去協助所以從112年到現在人口已經移工人數1.2萬對不對1.2萬目前是足夠的"},{"start":10055.339,"end":10071.928,"text":"大概合了將近8000人還有4000人因為你門檻太高啦你門檻太高所以就沒有辦法他有資格去申請這個移工嘛所以我認為說你門檻適度做調整一下就滿了"},{"start":10072.688,"end":10073.188,"text":"接下來我們請李玉琳委員請做詢問"},{"start":10106.846,"end":10107.308,"text":"謝謝趙偉請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":10116.653,"end":10139.21,"text":"午安好部長恭喜你520之後你正式成為蔡政府的首位農業部長那本席也期許你未來對我們提升我們臺灣農業的這個競爭力有所貢獻那在521的時候你特別也有召開我們農業政策的這個願景的一個記者會你特別提到就是"},{"start":10140.111,"end":10162.265,"text":"我們的整個農業的發展在農業發展條例的你還要發展我們農業的基本法那農業的基本法在2011年的時候那時候就已經有送行政院這個草案了那但是經過了這個13年你現在提出來了這個基本法那這個基本法跟我們的農業的這個發展條例有什麼不一樣呢"},{"start":10162.785,"end":10175.76,"text":"我想第一個要跟委員說明的就是農業的基本法最近一次提示在108年提到行政院那行政院那時候是說希望有更多的一個溝通那第二個部分就是"},{"start":10178,"end":10205.66,"text":"農業現在農業發展條例有許多他是牽扯到有點作用法的部分有一部分是作用法但是農業基本法他是一個比較上位的綱領性的政策的法案他最重要就是撥劃我們整個臺灣農業的未來的一個方向那有了這個方向以後後面的每4年的中期計畫就能夠follow這樣的一個政策去做滾動的檢討然後配套的法案也可以因為這個上位的基本法有的時候"},{"start":10206.34,"end":10225.753,"text":"所以部長這個基本法跟這個發展條例的位階可能就是不太一樣一個是執行方面一個是一個是一個是對所以我看到可能會比較多的一些文字那在這個細節的部分應該要有一個專案再把它說清楚這樣子會比較明瞭對我們後續我想農業基本法基本上過去在108年討論了幾個議題那經過了5年其實有更多的新的議題必須去融入的"},{"start":10235.379,"end":10260.897,"text":"那這個部分我想我們一定會在盡快的最短的時間之內重新去整理完了以後然後對外去做一些說明然後跟農業基本法所以應該就是用我們的專法來處理讓很多的方向會更加的明確讓大家更加的明瞭好不好我們期許這兩個是不一樣的不然的話我們農業的發展條例就等於是退場就不需要了用基本法是不是"},{"start":10261.277,"end":10287.598,"text":"不是,一個是上位的政策的法一個是作用法對,我會把它講清楚好,OK那現在我們要講的就是我們的農業人口的老化這個問題你看從2018年到2023年一直逐漸的減少在這個減少那整個排名在工作上為什麼這個會減少我們的年輕人不要重農這就代表這整個在我們的工作這在19個產業當中它是倒數第二的"},{"start":10291.161,"end":10300.011,"text":"在這種情形之下我們要怎麼樣幫助我們的農業可以更加的年輕化所以你們有提出來的一鄉鎮這個農業的這個服務團這個服務團來做代耕的工作"},{"start":10306.519,"end":10331.722,"text":"那所以主委你本身也是在我們基層起來應該都很了解在農業的工作上很多會老年化就是因為年輕人不要做那年輕人來做的話我們現在年輕人都是比較數位啊有智慧啊或比較精緻化對不對那這就是要借重於我們的機器啊比如我們的機具啊農耕的機具在這方面的話是不是你在這方面有特別的一個補助方案呢"},{"start":10332.262,"end":10352.936,"text":"我想我們一定會有一些特別的政策誘因那很重要的一個就是我們也調查了很多現在的青年人會回鄉有一大部分的原因是家中有他的年紀比較長的所以我怎麼樣讓年輕人進來其實農村的支持系統是很重要的"},{"start":10353.556,"end":10355.478,"text":"最重要農民要提高他的收入"},{"start":10370.094,"end":10371.095,"text":"對,農機具的部分我想我們會透過這種農事服務業或是大的集團產權去處理"},{"start":10397.518,"end":10422.79,"text":"像我們桃園就已經有青農團了,他們就有代工了所以這方面請主委再更加的深化更加的去努力來輔導他們讓他們能夠青年能夠返鄉耕農也能讓青農能夠有所發展穩定的收入是非常的重要接下來想討論就是主委特別有提到這個漁電共生漁電共生最主要是地主"},{"start":10423.77,"end":10450.84,"text":"還有太陽能的產業還有一個就是養殖業我們現在看到整個條例裡面的發展地主跟養殖業必須他們都是有租地的問題那如果說養殖業會不會被犧牲的問題這就很重要因為如果說地主要把這個土地租給光電的產業的話那養殖業他如果不簽約他不同意的話"},{"start":10452.06,"end":10466.375,"text":"就會被犧牲掉了是不是這樣子?我想其實您講得非常對就是現在光電業者有一個關卡就是光電業者、養殖業者跟地主之間的認同跟他的一個意願"},{"start":10467.476,"end":10484.649,"text":"所以我們有一些相關的規範指引在做這個部分第二個部分更重要就是說我們也擔心就是說光電業者一開始說我要種我會種什麼種什麼講得很漂亮可是當你光電一送電以後他就不理他了所以我們有後面的這些集合的團隊"},{"start":10487.151,"end":10487.932,"text":"我們現在有一個比較好的一個一個輔導團隊去做一個我們有一個檢核表齁"},{"start":10502.975,"end":10502.995,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":10522.006,"end":10545.091,"text":"而不是一對一,現在都是一對一那一對一的困難度會比較高那未來如果說光電板下的這些餘溫能夠用集團經營、共同經營的方式那相對我覺得是一個雙贏的政策所以主委我本期要提醒就是你要重視到這個養殖業的工作權你現在今天講的是餘電共生你這個共生不能名存實亡"},{"start":10545.851,"end":10547.232,"text":"接下來我們請陳培宇委員請發言"},{"start":10574.33,"end":10574.51,"text":"農業部部長"},{"start":10586.44,"end":10606.139,"text":"好部長早安我就快速跟你討論你知道我每次來都是要問你關於這個養牛產業全面升級轉型計畫至於在臺灣的學童乳的規劃那我想部長我們就直接切入重點之前您跟我說在5月20以後會有進一步的消息那我們在今天的業務報告裡面也看到113到116年的養牛產業轉型計畫的重點那我想要問一下"},{"start":10610.663,"end":10636.538,"text":"因為目前學校營養午餐即將要開標各個縣市相關標案要開始進行那目前關於營養午餐當中提供學童鮮乳的這個部分或是保酒乳的部分目前的規劃進度是?我跟委員說明就是因為學童營養午餐本身我們要會前教育部送行政院那我們現在教育部部長還沒有簽字那那個國教組是希望說我們針對於"},{"start":10638.759,"end":10659.184,"text":"這個血統乳的配送的細節先確認以後他們才要簽字所以我已經請我們的畜牧師盡快的跟國家養殖署去處理那一個最大的原則是我不要讓說我只供應血統乳那由任由大廠去供應讓這個吃去因為我們最主要是我們當時是為了臺灣的臺灣的這些"},{"start":10661.485,"end":10682.203,"text":"稍後的這些弱農的產業是是是所以我的一個原則就是說我怎麼樣讓這個小農的弱農的牛奶是可以供應到雪凍雪凍乳的部分那如果每一個小農都自己去做加工的那個保修乳那成本太高所以我怎麼樣去做一個平台讓他們也許有一個"},{"start":10683.244,"end":10699.435,"text":"從收集牛奶到之前加工、過程、運送甚至於我會去設計就是你拿血統乳的價格跟你拿大腸的價格是不一樣的因為大腸本身的價格是比較便宜的"},{"start":10699.815,"end":10718.644,"text":"但是我們當時其實是為了協助臺灣的落農產業所以這個部分看起來應該還有一些工作在進行那我們就這樣直白的問好有沒有機會在今年營養午餐開標之前或者是可能還要再往後延後好了我想我們就比較務實的來看我覺得我的目標就是9月就可以開始但是相對的就是"},{"start":10719.344,"end":10736.839,"text":"有一部分我們儘快跟教育部通過他如果說會嫌報行政院的話我就會先跟行政院那邊就做專案報告取得認同這樣的話速度會比較快好那這個部分我想我們辦公室也很樂意協助農業部跟教育部跨部會的溝通會議好不好"},{"start":10739.42,"end":10758.607,"text":"接下來下一個部分要跟農業部請教其實我們一直在跟農業部談關於地方創生遇到這個食材處理的問題那我們今天就以零下經濟的作物為例那其實農業部從2019年4月就開始推動零下經濟而且陸續開放在地特色作物可以做成相關的產品"},{"start":10759.447,"end":10780.356,"text":"獲得相關的商業利益：協助很多的地方社區部落村莊或是農民團體有非常非常多收益是從林下經濟來的可是我就直接說其實林下經濟你們目前把相關的作物清單有100多項有列出來可是其中最有爭議的目前遇到很大困境其實老葉我想部長你也非常清楚"},{"start":10780.776,"end":10807.911,"text":"我們就不再多說下一頁可是我們也我們辦公室自己也跟食藥署開過會議了確實在這個平台上只要遇到食品原料整合查詢平台就會出現相關問題我時間有限我想是不是就拜託農業部接下來我們繼續花力氣跟食業跟食藥署溝通跟衛福部溝通協助農業部想要推廣這些零下經濟的作物一旦日後開發成產品或是相關餐廳的菜色他不會遇到再次被檢舉再次被開罰的問題"},{"start":10811.121,"end":10829.131,"text":"我想我們一定會積極的跟衛福部溝通但是那個溝通非常不順利我很坦白講因為他要的就是我要舉證安全性那任何一個產品的安全性一做就是兩年但是很多國外的文獻有沒有其實它已經可以使用了"},{"start":10829.951,"end":10848.864,"text":"這個不只是零價經濟喔,很多原住民的傳統食材也遇到這樣的問題,所以我們我想我會跟新的衛務部的部長或是相關的同仁我們再積極的去協商有沒有什麼樣的方法要符合安全,符合衛務部的規定,但是也會讓我們的那個期間會加快"},{"start":10849.569,"end":10870.337,"text":"對,因為我不好意思主席再給我30秒意思就是說相信部長我非常認同部長您剛剛願意開誠布公的說確實有很大溝通上的困難可是我們絕對要贊許農業部願意開發零下經濟或是相關的這些產業文化的推進協助農民可是遇到跟食藥署這邊的溝通我們當然認同食安食安非常非常重要"},{"start":10870.737,"end":10891.755,"text":"所以如果你們在跟衛福部這邊跨部會溝通有問題我想我們辦公室也願意積極的協助甚至是不是我們有機會召開公聽會或是座談會大家一起坐下來好好想個辦法到底如何確保食人、國人的食安但是又可以促進零下經濟相關產業的發展好不好好非常謝謝委員我們接下來時間有限但是我們就一起努力好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":10900.029,"end":10926.915,"text":"謝謝剛剛在回答的當中那個薄酒爐他除了教育部那食藥署似乎意見還是都不一樣所以這一點我也請那個部長因為你那個薄酒爐不是只有教育部我們為了事情要達成還有食藥署 衛福部到目前為止他還沒有將你的那個鮮乳"},{"start":10927.475,"end":10927.875,"text":"蘇清泉委員"},{"start":10958.435,"end":10969.66,"text":"致謝主席,我請部長還有我們一列署張署長部長跟張署長"},{"start":10984.991,"end":10995.089,"text":"上個月由我們楊瓊英召委我們一起去屏東看那個雞蛋的處理我非常欣賞你"},{"start":10996.851,"end":11014.825,"text":"永遺壬世．而且恭喜在位,我感覺沒有人要開口我聽下去。第二我要把我們的張署長肯定的就是我們這一次那個石斑、龍膽、珍珠斑、我們削到東山崗等等"},{"start":11015.586,"end":11043.641,"text":"我們業署非常的小心也非常的努力也非常的嚴格那現在銷得還蠻順的阿在黃理事長跟我的努力下我們這個龍虎班已經從一台金霸一霸利現在起到兩霸利那裡阿所以如果用公斤算的話那不得了三百多塊阿所以在這感謝我們的部長跟我們的署長再次肯定"},{"start":11044.707,"end":11063.836,"text":"但是我這裡要講一個就是黑衛的事情各位看到我們黑衛以前我們小的時候我年輕的時候我同工人我同工孩子我們家在做文化的我們家親家在理會的我不會去關心"},{"start":11064.864,"end":11064.884,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":11084.819,"end":11109.505,"text":"但是我們今年WCPFC合定我們是1965噸1965噸我們現在差不多多少差不多一千一千一千零五百到一千一左右禮拜天就是26號我小有酒的漁民跟我反映反映說這會繼續還賣價值格怎麼那麼差秀一張"},{"start":11115.953,"end":11124.521,"text":"沒有突然說一公斤一台一公斤公斤公斤是八十塊七十塊一百塊"},{"start":11126.172,"end":11148.742,"text":"因為前幾天上個月在做那個黑尾文化秀的時候一公斤是賣到一萬零三百塊所以讓大家都覺得說 哇 革命情勢一片美好啦 大家可以好 避免人家好到跪在地 結果跪槓一公斤存一千 再跪存九百、八百 滴滴落滴滴落 那到現在還沒學本無歸啊 部長 這問題是處理隊"},{"start":11153.427,"end":11175.602,"text":"我給委員報告,就是鮪魚開始在捕獲的時候的第一尾第二尾通常價格比較高但是相對的它過往的漁獲量,今年的漁獲量短時間的漁獲量那個尾數比較多啦那比較多的時候相對的它的價格會比較往下跑但是以現在我們看到的資料就是"},{"start":11177.063,"end":11204.157,"text":"尾魚可以分為可以是生食的尾魚那生食的尾魚它那個價格還是維持大概300平均大概380幾大概每公斤大概這樣子那媒體所報的那個70塊它是屬於不是生食用的這些魚然後相對的是也是當天的最低價格啦那其實我們最擔心的就是有時候商人看到這樣的新聞他就會把前端的價格壓得更低"},{"start":11204.817,"end":11207.618,"text":"主席 花這麼時間喔 我在這裡講的就是說你黑尾魚一年再怎麼抓不到2000噸接下來"},{"start":11233.99,"end":11234.712,"text":"黃起維7萬幾檔捏 還有來 還有"},{"start":11241.294,"end":11248.98,"text":"還有其他的魚種大多數還有整條島,整條島也有活動,你如果這樣產銷這麼脆弱,你是要怎麼補呢?大家也拖拖拖,漁民也貪不吃,他們的魚族那些大款式都不出,魚肥不一樣,市場也變壞,所以那天署長我有跟你們兩個聯絡,署長說要加強冷鏈,你們以前衝了很多冷鏈給這些魚,到底署長現在到底是怎麼樣?"},{"start":11270.902,"end":11285.123,"text":"因為在當天的保溫,因為我們冷店正在蓋啦,大概明年或後年的部分或陸續的完工,齁這個冷店的部分阿你蓋到這個冷店給這個企業,這個企業是有善盡管理之責,阿是我們辦法給他派,阿現在出問題阿"},{"start":11286.024,"end":11287.606,"text":"我們的黑鮪魚只有幾個港口可以拍拍,因為要管制,當港、新港還要去哪裡?"},{"start":11311.448,"end":11318.319,"text":"所以有關節,你現在補助他這麼多做冷凍庫,到底是怎樣的,我聽到說什麼會壞掉,那聽不下去,有什麼事?"},{"start":11326.964,"end":11352.661,"text":"對,兩樣會應該是沒什麼問題啊1900幾噸,大型的冰凍庫一斤兩斤就吃了了、吞了了這不是說它的溫度要0下-50度啦不是說一般的0下-37度所以這個部分我們有特別去找到了一公斤一萬塊,這誤導第二個,你的冷鏈要做好第三個要促銷嘛促銷你有什麼要保守嗎你要給我們的漁民"},{"start":11354.313,"end":11382.88,"text":"有給我們的市民有真的有收益嘛這是我比較在意的對阿就每天來給我認證我就是他給我認證我說你怎麼不去找冠軍你怎麼不去找市委他就是就是沒什麼反應他不來找我我第一時間我就同時補充跟署長阿對啦阿我真感謝你們的順利反應阿對阿你們處理的很積極但是你們要落實或追蹤下去會好不好因為你們這些錢可以撥走這些福音我覺得你們要隨時"},{"start":11384.06,"end":11387.342,"text":"謝謝也請部長將剛剛委員所提的怎麼樣促銷的方案跟委員來說明清楚謝謝我們現在休息3分鐘"},{"start":11424.548,"end":11445.145,"text":"議員會議員議員會議"},{"start":11479.192,"end":11482.253,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11495.454,"end":11505.822,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11529.032,"end":11529.212,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11619.07,"end":11621.072,"text":"謝謝,我們繼續開會我們接下來邀請黃國昌委員請做詢答謝謝主席,有請部長來,我們再請陳部長"},{"start":11650.333,"end":11673.464,"text":"其實這件事情我們在上一次質詢的時候已經交換過意見了因為我一直在跟農業部要我們2022年跟日本進口雞蛋的資料專要去廠會那是在農業部所管轄的機關我從2月一直要要到上一次的時候"},{"start":11674.588,"end":11701.757,"text":"你們到4月說合約有保密義務沒有辦法提供但我們進一步深入去看發現有保密義務是乙方而不是中央續產會所以所謂在合約附保密義務的這件事情的這個說法當我們把合約調出來看了以後發現根本是胡說八道附保密義務的是廠商"},{"start":11702.932,"end":11729.064,"text":"而不是我們的中央續產會上一次詢答的時候你們的同仁說依照政府資訊公開法這個合約需要廠商的同意才能夠公開我上次已經跟部長表達過對這種法規的解釋我是感覺到匪夷所思啦我為什麼感覺到匪夷所思政府資訊公開法是這樣解釋的嗎"},{"start":11730.424,"end":11747.957,"text":"那如果政府資訊公開法是按照農業部這樣解釋的話那問題大條我為什麼說問題大條交通部、文化部、經濟部我只要去調合約通通都要交出來為什麼要交出來事情很簡單啊這是我們納稅人的錢啊"},{"start":11751.836,"end":11774.166,"text":"去採購的事項然後合約行政部門可以用廠商不答應拒絕提供然後依據是政府資訊公開法這樣的法規解釋上次部長回去有沒有再重新思考是所有的行政單位都這樣解釋因此提供給我這些合約的部會通通都違法"},{"start":11775.394,"end":11794.857,"text":"還是只有農業部做這樣的解釋?請部長我想跟委員先說明一下就是當時我所得到的一個訊息就是說我們政府單位的資料的提供與否可能有幾個要件包括您剛才講的政府資訊公開法那當初我們的認定是也需要兩照雙方也不是農業部訂的"},{"start":11796.158,"end":11810.138,"text":"後來我也真正的開了專案會議去檢討這樣的一個規定那我覺得就是說當它屬於公益的時候你什麼時候開專案會議我應該是在委員委員那時候質詢的時候那個專案會議的會議記錄可不可以廢後給我們"},{"start":11813.141,"end":11835.167,"text":"我們在討論的時候並不是一個非常正式的一個會議就是我找了相關的單位來看案件不行啊你決定這麼重大的事項誰表達了這樣的法律見解誰要負責任啊因為關係重大欸如果你們農業部上次的法律見解是正確的那我就跟部長報告啊事情大條啦交通部、文化部、經濟部全部都違法"},{"start":11836.047,"end":11856.937,"text":"因為農業部是唯一一個部會用政府資訊公開法當作理由拒絕提供合約的知識體大農業部到底哪一位官員做這樣的法律主張這個有政治責任的問題嗎?不過我想在法條的這樣的解釋基本上很多"},{"start":11858.178,"end":11862.06,"text":"所以現在我們的政府是各個部會一人一把號各吹各的調同一部法律不同的部會有不同的解釋情況是這樣嗎"},{"start":11879.907,"end":11900.417,"text":"我想應該不會是這樣子但是...那如果不是這樣的話是怎麼樣?是你們解釋錯還是他們違法?我想以農業部來講我最後的決定就是他有他的但書但書如果是屬於公益的時候可以把它公開所以我就用了這個公益的方式可以把它公開所以結果是公開的那合約什麼時候要交出來?"},{"start":11901.437,"end":11909.987,"text":"我們已經合約已經那時候好像張旗愷委員有要求的時候我們已經給了所以合約的部分問的人是我啊你給張旗愷委員那我呢"},{"start":11912.711,"end":11939.972,"text":"我很抱歉 我不是本委的 我跟你一樣你不給我我非常抱歉 這件事情我想我們會員委我會立即提供因為好我們繼續往下看就不要拖時間了啦我為什麼要吹這件事2023年當時超市這家公司被社會大眾質疑50萬的資本額的公司設在一個民宅結果接到7億元超級的大單"},{"start":11941.34,"end":11966.126,"text":"社會嘩然阿哇超市是什麼樣的公司阿非常神秘阿設在一個民宅內2022年9月設立2023年就接到了這麼大的單子那個時候農業部信誓旦旦的說齁超市不是因為要開始專案進口才成立他2022年9月就成立了前面還有時機阿"},{"start":11967.748,"end":11987.866,"text":"我從去年就開始一路追查他有的時機是什麼我為什麼會開始追2022年從日本專案進口因為我從去年就開始懷疑2022年從日本進口雞蛋的就是超市超市就是為了日本進口雞蛋才成立的但我手上沒有拿到證據以前我不會隨便亂說話結果來吧2022年9月成立2022年11月"},{"start":11995.751,"end":12017.485,"text":"曾經從日本進口雞蛋到台灣這個是你們農業部去年公開的資訊在左手邊嘛但左手邊沒有告訴他們2022年11月進口雞蛋是哪裡的單你們上面文過是非寫說曾經幫日本的大企業在處理雞蛋的事情我們再往下追結果後來發現2022年中央續產會進口了3000萬顆雞蛋"},{"start":12024.029,"end":12051.03,"text":"裡面有2500萬顆是交給誰做的?這是交給超市做的啊!超市不就是為了接你們農業部中央續產會的大單而成立的嗎?我有沒有說錯?請教部長我跟委員說齁一家公司的資本額跟他有沒有能力買單我想這是兩件事情的第一點對!但我現在質疑的是什麼?農業部去年怎麼告訴台灣社會大眾的?我們再來看一下"},{"start":12052.389,"end":12054.27,"text":"我講我們並沒有欺騙大眾齁所以只是沒有告訴大家"},{"start":12082.861,"end":12091.935,"text":"他不是為了巴西進口啊事實上在去年的時候為了中央續產會從日本進口的大單3000萬顆、2500萬顆是給超市做的"},{"start":12095.987,"end":12122,"text":"我有說錯嗎?委員我可不可以回答?請請請我想超私我想雞蛋本身他不是一個現貨市場他必須要熟悉整個雞蛋的產業那超私如果說你去問臺灣的所有的蛋農沒有一個人不認識他所以表示說他過往其實在雞蛋本身的這個進口是有他的一個能力負責人秦雨喬女士在2022年9月接你們"},{"start":12122.84,"end":12136.712,"text":"接你們中央續產會的大單以前上一次在處理雞蛋買賣的事宜是什麼時候我所瞭解在你現在的說法是他很有名關係很好可以弄得到蛋嘛"},{"start":12137.714,"end":12156.239,"text":"現在這個是農業部的說法那我請教的是在2022年9月他成立了超市公司接中央續產會的單以前他前一次在處理雞蛋是什麼時候的事情我們不夠不了解因為最主要就是欸那就很奇怪囉你們如果不了解的話"},{"start":12157.159,"end":12173.393,"text":"你們怎麼會掌握說這家公司很有辦法有辦法幫中央續產會去處理2500萬顆日本雞蛋進口不會有問題?廠商是怎麼選擇?我可不可以回答?可以這樣子齁就是112年那是專案進口所以農業部有直接的參與112年是2023年嗎?對"},{"start":12175.635,"end":12177.277,"text":"是公社財團法人還是私的財團法人?他是"},{"start":12199.893,"end":12201.255,"text":"公設的財團法人跟主管機關彼此之間的關係?"},{"start":12218.533,"end":12242.784,"text":"我想我了解但是我們不會去至少對我來講還有對我們的畜牧師來講不會去了解他每一筆的細節我這樣說好了啦中央續產會是你們現在是用自由資金在幫他解釋嘛但你回去看中央續產會從開始到現在從開始到現在他的錢不是納稅人支持的嗎要不然為什麼是公社財團法人"},{"start":12243.985,"end":12262.037,"text":"你們用一個公社財團法人當擺手套就可以迴避監督迴避所有的規管嗎這是我的問題那他一開始成立是由幾個單位去合資成立的但是他每一年他還是有自己的收入時間的問題啦我只問一個最關鍵的問題是不是可以麻煩部長請問中央續產會2022年的時候是廠商他們是怎麼挑選的這是第一個問題嘛是"},{"start":12274.325,"end":12278.269,"text":"這第一個問題第二個問題把合約交出來有沒有問題沒有問題好謝謝謝謝很謝謝部長部長你剛才回答說花園所提問的資料已經給章吉凱委員因為章吉凱委員要的資料不是這個所以你要去把他理清楚謝謝"},{"start":12298.662,"end":12306.826,"text":"來接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員請徐富奎委員請做發言謝謝謝謝主席我們有請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":12323.18,"end":12339.769,"text":"委員好部長早安我想去年底的時候我有跟我們那時候還是在代理部長的時候我們一起去恆春看了我們洋蔥一個種苗的一個災情那當時我印象中我們用很快的速度就核定了這個災損然後給予"},{"start":12342.45,"end":12368.943,"text":"我們農民一個救助這一點非常的感謝但是本席發現今年2月份我們今年在屏東看了荔枝跟芒果的一個農業災損但是一直得不到我們農業部的一個災損的一個核定那到底問題出在哪裡我想跟委員講就是農民跟荔枝開的花他本身當時遇到"},{"start":12370.123,"end":12395.971,"text":"低於20度C的溫度不夠所以它的開的花不時那麼的完整但是荔枝的花絮不是每一個花絮都會結果時所以那時候才說還要持續的一個觀察所以也因為持續的觀察它是不是真正的這個花絮的花的數量不夠而導致後面的結果變少所以這個因果關係我們花了大概將近一個月的時間在做確認"},{"start":12397.766,"end":12408.596,"text":"部長我想就是去年的時候我記得我們有透過一個媒體的報導有看到說我們農業部一直在強調要用科學看災取代人工看災"},{"start":12409.426,"end":12429.738,"text":"中央公告、中央審核要縮短這個勘災的時程,那我印象中我們最常講的一句話我們都希望從寬從速從簡來辦理但是我們面對這個極端的氣候卻發現我們農業部沒有跟上這個腳步我相信這個很多農民都很高興每次遇到天然災害的時候,他們都高興說我們在這個"},{"start":12432.039,"end":12432.519,"text":"我們大概1萬多人吧"},{"start":12459.773,"end":12459.793,"text":"保錦組"},{"start":12480.799,"end":12494.166,"text":"您在政客當時這樣宣傳的都要求我們的農民要使用APP後來那政客都是一群老人家,孩子沒有在家他們怎麼會要用APP啦你們的所謂的整個宣傳的一個管道根本不足"},{"start":12495.166,"end":12510.708,"text":"然後加上我們現在農改廠加上農糧署還有又透過我們的縣市政府透過公署這個管道的保温根本農民不曉得這個整個SOP要怎麼去處理這個後續的保温農民底下欲哭無淚啊我們未來要怎麼去改善這個狀況"},{"start":12512.51,"end":12531.954,"text":"現在目前的一個關鍵的點就是公所的勘栽的速度因為如果同時開很多品項的時候公所的人力不足所以他勘栽的速度會變慢所以我們現在有兩個做法一個做法就是用參數型的指數不是要逐筆去勘這樣的話才能夠節省時間所以我們會去開發那種參數型的這些天氣風險舉個例子像虱目魚9度C以下48小時"},{"start":12539.196,"end":12551.577,"text":"那我們確定說它一定會超過20%我們就免勘猜所以透過這樣子一個這種數據型的天氣參數可以加快它的一個速度那第二個部分就是我們希望推動這種"},{"start":12552.952,"end":12570.901,"text":"那個現刊的這個APP然後這個APP要公所能夠採認那現在遇到一個問題就是因為公所本身的現刊是由他們決定的所以他們有的人會認這個APP的照片有些公所的承辦人員不認識所以這個部分我們會積極的去做一個宣導"},{"start":12572.66,"end":12596.802,"text":"部長我想如果責任全部都要讓農民去承擔、讓公署去承擔都不經...對,我們是我們的責任對啦,我希望就是因為我們有地方有農改廠、有農聯署我們整個預警系統對於這個極端性氣候的掌握,我們應該不要要主動來出擊啦因為農民沒有通報,因為公署沒有看齋,所以農民很倒霉"},{"start":12598.683,"end":12626.494,"text":"我可不可以跟委員說明一下現在的很多天然災害的一個第一時間的探災第一時間的探災都是我們農改廠跟我們的農糧署去探災然後去邀請縣政府的所以相對的我們不會說等著縣政府提報室要上來以我的態度我想我們會更積極的去處理這樣的一個作為好 謝謝另外主席不好意思跟我講整遍"},{"start":12627.094,"end":12645.376,"text":"真的剛剛我想我們也來自屏東,我們是屏東的立委,我們也關心黑鮪魚整個一個產銷一個制度那當然我們都希望我們的漁民這麼辛苦的魚可以買到一個好的介紹但是不能把所謂的生死等級跟刺激一個這個不是生死等級的"},{"start":12646.096,"end":12668.821,"text":"我們希望大家抓到是品質好的魚,讓我們消費者可以享用很美味的一個黑鮪魚,然後透過一個整個產銷的一個系統,那最重要就是未來我們希望我們要加快我們的冷鏈系統的建制。請教一下蘇定,我們有沒有針對冷鏈系統的部分,現在補助的進度到哪裡?"},{"start":12669.401,"end":12695.39,"text":"我想目前現在在東港屏東地區大概有兩個區域農業務務長在處理但是大概會明年甚至到後年才會完工那這段空裝期的話我們已經有協調了一些私人的冷凍庫場去當作備存萬一如果像這一次短時間之內比較多的這個黑鮪魚進港量多造成一些價格的問題的話我們會把這些次級品先拉去做凍存"},{"start":12696.742,"end":12715.323,"text":"部長我還是要再提醒這個問題不會是只有今年明年後年我們除了辦理縣政府除了辦理黑尾魚觀光機來行銷出銷之外我們漁業署跟農業部也要應該提出一個相對應的一個產銷一個政策來輔導大家輔導業者怎麼樣去做一個這個整個一個行銷的一個平台"},{"start":12716.944,"end":12726.391,"text":"最後麻煩我們水保署長這邊把我們屏東縣這兩年我們水保的補助案件的明細表給本席的辦公室接下來我們請高金素妹委員請做詢談"},{"start":12739.343,"end":12746.493,"text":"謝謝主席。讓部長休息一下。可以嗎?好,有請部長。好,我們再請部長。"},{"start":12749.909,"end":12773.094,"text":"部長辛苦了本期在這個位置上我曾經執行過農委會我提到臺灣的農業行政體系其實有非常多培養數十年的農業專才像您一樣你們精通臺灣農業的問題你們也改良了世界一流的農業技術可惜當時領導你們的政務官他只是一個只有理論沒有實踐的虛謎學者"},{"start":12775.612,"end":12793.947,"text":"把台灣的農業耽誤了好長一段時間今天我非常樂見來自農事所的您能夠擔任部長這個職位繼續能夠跟台灣的農民來一起打拼上週我看到了您接受媒體訪問的時候您提到您說農業是一門專業的產業"},{"start":12795.708,"end":12796.148,"text":"我們以前曾經從原鄉基礎資料的盤點"},{"start":12822.709,"end":12849.056,"text":"數據的分析：部落農業的實踐方案：落實原鄉的食農教育：還有學校的營養午餐：可以使用部落的食材這些問題今天我們還是先從基礎資料的回顧來講我也期盼這個部長和所有的農業部的同仁未來在原鄉的農業尤其是農村部落的議題上我們一起從制度"},{"start":12854.02,"end":12872.474,"text":"臺灣目前我們要看一些數據可供農糧食生產的土地面積大概是53萬公頃這您比我清楚其中有12.8萬公頃是位於山坡地的範圍而位於山坡地範圍的合法農地原住民的保留地就佔了7.5萬公頃"},{"start":12874.696,"end":12900.151,"text":"更簡單地講作為農糧生產的原住民保留地占全台灣14%也占山坡地59%而我們看到這些數據它顯示什麼顯示原鄉農業的重要特別是每年的4月到10月民眾非常熟悉也是需求量最大的高利財幾乎都是從高海拔的部落下來的"},{"start":12901.212,"end":12925.963,"text":"可是呢我們占比那麼高的部落的農地過去一直沒有被政府重視我們來看一下7.5萬公頃的元寶地過去全數是位於農田水利會的灌區外這導致什麼呢導致原住民的農民他需要自己往更深山的地方去拉水管然後自己拉水管形成了什麼你看一下這些圖片"},{"start":12927.213,"end":12941.3,"text":"我相信部長很清楚在場的農業的這個專家們你們也清楚7.5萬公頃的元寶地全數位於山坡地但是呢農業部你們的補助項目卻是用平地農業"},{"start":12942.881,"end":12964.115,"text":"為制定標準這導致部落我們種的果樹其實是需要牙管來支撐可是我們的農糧組只能補助水泥柱給農民支撐果樹這是不符合現實的狀況然後再來看7.5萬公頃的原保地全數也不屬於平地農路所以呢我們是位於蟲化區外"},{"start":12965.376,"end":12975.083,"text":"所以原住民部落的農民他根本沒有穩定的農路可以改善他的經費我們只能靠什麼水保署每4年一起"},{"start":12976.491,"end":13003.487,"text":"辛苦地向行政院爭取來的所謂的重劃區外緊急農路改善計畫我們來修補部落的農路我們過去有很多的農業政策的補助根本沒有思考到受益農戶的產值今天呢我用很短的時間來提出一個案例跟部長你來交流我們來看一下宜蘭縣大同鄉他是全台灣最重要的高利貸的產區我們如果以這個"},{"start":13004.788,"end":13022.259,"text":"蔬菜專區為例一公里的農路他預估包含10公頃的高麗菜田而每公頃的高麗菜他的年產值我們如果以150萬元做計算的話所以每座一公里的農路可能是需要500萬的經費這500萬的經費他可以使用多久20年啊"},{"start":13027.222,"end":13045.348,"text":"在20年造就了部落的產值大概是多少20年然後1500萬我們看到這樣子加總起來是3億更簡單的來講就是我們的政府如果花500萬去把這個農路做好他可以維持部落20年總產值是3億的農業生產"},{"start":13047.449,"end":13067.761,"text":"所以今天我提了這幾個案例因為時間非常的短那麼過去我也跟你探討過原鄉的農業問題我期待在部長的帶領之下我們的農業部針對過去被政府遺忘的原鄉農業能夠制定出符合部落農民需求的政策可以嗎?部長你有沒有什麼話要說?"},{"start":13069.382,"end":13096.556,"text":"我想謝謝委員的這些提問那以我的態度來講我在處理原鄉的原民部落的這些農業其實要去考慮到除了農業問題以外我更要去重視就是說其實原民部落的這些原民本身他守護的這些山林的一個貢獻度我覺得要從這個貢獻度去做某個程度的加值所以我所有的這些政策的誘因的設計"},{"start":13097.697,"end":13121.774,"text":"他絕對不能說只是從平地的原則就直接套在原民部落所以你包括你剛才講的因為在山坡地在坡地在比較高山的地區的農牧用地的部分他的這些包括他的灌溉系統他的水路系統他都應該被特別的去重視特別說雖然說您剛才講的7.5萬公頃我的資料"},{"start":13124.256,"end":13141.826,"text":"還有波地的部分大概有16萬公頃所以它也是一個重要的農業生產區所以後續我想我會針對原民部落的政策會有個特殊的特殊的一個一個輔導措施去達到一些包括您所期待還有包括所有原住民所期待的包括它的灌溉系統"},{"start":13142.446,"end":13159.591,"text":"他是關區外的灌溉系統,他的農路的部分他的設施的補助的項目跟樣態我想這個部分我們都會來來處理而是用原民部落對於農就是森林地區的守護的貢獻度從這個角度去出發去設計不一樣的"},{"start":13161.038,"end":13175.664,"text":"非常好我想我們原住民的族人終於期待等到了一位好的部長接地氣的部長所以呢這個部分我會持續的來追蹤部長也希望你在公務房忙的時候也記得原住民的這一塊農業部分好吧好謝謝您謝謝"},{"start":13182.171,"end":13203.671,"text":"因為我們台中也有我們和平區部長剛才講到這個是我們很關心的因為以前我記得為什麼我們直轄市的區長原住民鄉長還是用選的因為他們講了一句話當時我當書記長他講了一句話他說我要的你不要給我你要的我又不要"},{"start":13204.412,"end":13204.872,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13224.887,"end":13225.027,"text":"接下來我們請參議員"},{"start":13258.581,"end":13261.025,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是邀請我們部長陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":13270.727,"end":13288.004,"text":"部長,我們現在針對了這個這個探會我們自然探會的一個法學的一個審核那我們大概有目前有6個方式消化、森林、竹林"},{"start":13289.285,"end":13308.606,"text":"改進農業的一個土地管理或者生物碳在土壤的應用紅樹林的植林跟海草的一個護域那這樣6個減量的方法那我想請教農業部那你們要把它落實在我們的農業中那你們有怎樣具體的方式嗎"},{"start":13309.728,"end":13324.839,"text":"第一個就是我們的方法學大概經過我們內部很多的努力現在已經提到環境部去了那環境部公告以後就可以當作一個政治的一個自願減量的一個方法但是在執行面來講這是一個非常重要的關鍵就是"},{"start":13325.72,"end":13354.821,"text":"因為臺灣都是個體物小農為主小農要去處理這個相關的這個減碳的作為幾乎不可能因為它後面的一些成本會比較高一點所以我們現在就是用集團栽培的方式就是我會配套我們的很多產業的調整用集團栽培用氣作栽培的方式讓它變成一個規模比較大的方式那規模比較大的時候你在處理這個所有的這個作為的時候可以有一致性那一致性的過程裡面"},{"start":13355.521,"end":13373.102,"text":"那有兩個後面的策略就是一的可以我們可以由農業部做協助但是探全歸農業部然後農業部再進到交易平台去處理然後處理完的這些金額再回饋給農民那另外一個方式就是由這些這些大的這些極端產區的"},{"start":13373.963,"end":13376.386,"text":"如果是集團栽培的話可以想像會不會變成後來是要有導入企業"},{"start":13394.125,"end":13401.676,"text":"由企業來為了企業本身的EPS對那就是企業應該是一個經營主體然後他去主體他去跟農民變成一個一個契約關係然後讓農民來做實作者"},{"start":13409.847,"end":13422.544,"text":"讓企業取得了這樣的一個看會的價值但是有一個很重要的就是當我導入企業的時候我不希望它是一個對價關係我希望它是一個分論的關係因為它是一個經營主體"},{"start":13424.426,"end":13449.768,"text":"他不能用純粹的這種器做對價的關係去處理,這樣的話會把我們的探權就是變成被企業拿走了,農民沒有什麼收益所以我們未來在跟企業合作回饋,對,回饋,所以分論的部分對,分論嘛,但是企業之所以會想要投入也一定是會對他的,除了企業形象之外可能他取得了這個探權,他對他的外銷"},{"start":13450.589,"end":13451.75,"text":"以後由誰來負責攀爭土地?"},{"start":13478.948,"end":13479.748,"text":"現在聯合國的這個清潔發展機制CDM"},{"start":13505.18,"end":13526.432,"text":"他們目前承認的這個碳匯他們要認為可以產生這個碳匯的部分他們只承認是在新栽植的林地新栽植的林那如果我們目前台灣很多是既有的那你既有的要怎麼把它轉成說它是一個未來是有碳匯價值的一個的林地呢"},{"start":13527.328,"end":13553.762,"text":"我想這個分為兩個部分就是針對現在的CDM的部分他真的是只承認新殖林的部分但是後續的這些這些方法出來以後我們會經過相關的跟國際的規範做一個有效的一個接軌因為有些國家他不一定是在處理這個區塊的他們還是以新殖林為主但是相對的林業的部分的撫育其實他也是一個非常重要的探"},{"start":13554.562,"end":13571.389,"text":"然後身體的經營那另外一個更重要的就是部長我舉一個比較極端的例子因為我們現在有很多平地照領會不會有人為了要有看會會不會然後他就把平地照領的先做把這個平地照領的行動撤掉"},{"start":13572.934,"end":13587.001,"text":"先撤掉阿貴兩天後再重新來照領我們的攤會要看那個基線阿現在有的都沒剩阿啦然後平地照領本身他如果新子的平地照領沒問題"},{"start":13589.284,"end":13608.675,"text":"如果我是改,我本來照指的是他可能做浮浴可能本來的二氧化碳的一個固碳的效果比較差我把它改成竹林竹林的固碳效果好那這樣升級嘛他會重新計算他的一個碳會的數量"},{"start":13610.789,"end":13629.832,"text":"對,所以就有可能會發生原來的樹種被砍掉,然後把它換成新的樹種嘛那另外,等於說重新另外一個cycle重新計算對,就另外計算嘛好,那我再請教一下,那比方說像我們嘉義啦,我們嘉義鹽田地最多了,我們這裡都海靠,我們這裡都鹽田地"},{"start":13631.313,"end":13657.23,"text":"如果有這麼多的一個鹽田地的話那未來有沒有可能變成一個這個海藻啊或者是紅樹林的一個富裕的一個基地這個部分有一部分紅樹林是可以去處理的一些生態的棲地的部分那海草床的部分可能要看區位因為海藻床的他不是說你就在海邊種這個海藻就結束了他可能"},{"start":13658.01,"end":13658.79,"text":"海藻事實上是一個很"},{"start":13686.155,"end":13686.436,"text":"拜訪人員"},{"start":13704.559,"end":13730.456,"text":"所以有這樣的一個物種存在我們要去做可以固碳的海藻船的難度就是很高對那我們有可能在技術上去做排除然後把它轉換成可以固碳的海藻我想這個部分我會請我們的水事組這邊更積極的去處理你如果說一個樹地它相對單純那你如果說原來有一些這些相關的這些海草的時候它的進合作用"},{"start":13730.976,"end":13751.428,"text":"那怎麼樣去移除他可能有要有些技術上的一個問題克服所以部長我覺得臺灣你要找樹地都很難啊因為他都有既有的生態啊所以你在這個有既有生態的地方你要找到大片然後又符合一定會有要排除掉一些一些其他因素的存在嘛對那我現在列舉的就是說你看從呃嘉義甚至到了臺南就是所謂當這個部隊"},{"start":13758.172,"end":13784.364,"text":"阿嘎鹹水、蔥菌那些都是鹽田地這些鹽田地就是早期我們的祖先在這裡培養的地方阿如果我們又可以用這個海藻的富裕創造價值然後又可以讓貴族鹽工阿現在有這一些去做固碳的然後他們可以跟剛剛媒合的企業來做這一塊然後讓他們又有一個工作我覺得這個讓整個鹽田地的價值是是可以整個提升起來的"},{"start":13784.744,"end":13813.753,"text":"我想我會開一個專案計劃就是由水事所跟相關的這些學界共同去去評估一下有沒有辦法把這個我知道這可能有難度啦因為我之前我有跟人研究說我們這裡已經有一些不利於海藻生長的因素戰怎麼樣去改善它的環境有沒有辦法改善嘛對 這個要去做一個專案的一個評估我相信現在的科學技術一定是有辦法突破可是它也需要花一些預算那我們導入企業嘛然後把這一些事情"},{"start":13814.173,"end":13815.475,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請伍利華委員請做詢談"},{"start":13846.896,"end":13848.477,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長我們再請部長部長好 辛苦了去年的5月初我有來質詢農委會"},{"start":13865.081,"end":13886.914,"text":"為什麼呢?因為當時我們有族人因為使用一些傳統食材被檢舉因此機具食安法就被食藥署開發在這個部分其實很為難的地方是如果依照國家的規定它有一個很複雜的調查過程而且動輒百萬的安全性測試費用"},{"start":13892.737,"end":13907.478,"text":"所以很辛苦的 我不認為這個是個人能做到的 這個應該是屬於那些企業、公司或政府來做的那當時呢副主委他是說會由廠事所主動收集資料給食藥署"},{"start":13910.269,"end":13924.498,"text":"另外我也提到說我是希望農委會要主動會同原民會盤整原住民的灌輸植物這些常用的食材原料清單由你們來協調食藥署依據這個規定項目由你們檢附資料送審當時也回應說可以可是後來去年的年底又爆發是老葉"},{"start":13938.207,"end":13939.968,"text":"農業部主動與原民會盤整原住民常用的傳統灌輸食材"},{"start":13960.02,"end":13975.05,"text":"會診後由農業部協調衛福部食藥署競速納入傳統性食品原料避免許多的人因為行政部門作業來不及然後無辜受罰我要說的是其實那半年訴求結論是一模一樣的我是看到說你們果然是在昨天有召開了這個相關的會議"},{"start":13988.311,"end":13993.734,"text":"農業部提出了137項 原民會提出了14項 客委會這邊是還沒有加進來 這個地方我們也看到說目前好像我們講的這些也還沒有納入 最主要是說它的實用紀錄不可考較少實用、無實用、無法確認長期且廣泛 本來就是啊"},{"start":14013.746,"end":14040.995,"text":"做這個調查多難我就已經使用了幾千年你突然一定要我去找文獻或者做調查您將心比心部長您應該也覺得很困難很為難人對不對所以在這個地方也很謝謝你們有提到說那就讓他允許到非傳統性的食品原料這邊就是去做90天的胃食毒性測驗基因毒性試驗致肌試驗"},{"start":14043.476,"end":14045.379,"text":"哇 我是想要問說第一個要誰來做啊這個經費哪裡來請教一下部長"},{"start":14051.887,"end":14080.334,"text":"我想第一個部分就是其實我們農業部當初也承諾了委員的一個提醒我們有一個專案計畫叫做找回原地就是原住民部落的這些傳統食材所以我們也收集了也不是昨天才提出給他們的昨天是他們開會其實我們很早就提供給食藥署了但是基本上從食安的角度我們也必須尊重食藥署的一個判斷那現在一個困難就是傳統食材的部分我們是爭取說"},{"start":14081.374,"end":14111.374,"text":"﹗"},{"start":14112.214,"end":14137.504,"text":"簽署毒性測試那就是說誰來做?農業部可以幫忙嗎?這個部分我們如果要做的時候我們會請我們的農藥所來做因為農藥所本身有這個能力去做這個那我們就請農藥所來做那經費這個部分當然就由你們來處理嘛因為這絕對不是受罰的個人可以做的 對吧但是這個不能一百三十幾項全部進去啦我們會有一些優先次序"},{"start":14138.906,"end":14142.051,"text":"然後選擇優先的我們請農藥所我們經費提供來做這個如果說有130幾種本身的排序出來對那"},{"start":14150.39,"end":14158.253,"text":"我知道 我現在就是說優先制度出來以後我會跟食藥署 食藥署所長應該也在這裡我們會用經費來支持他做好 那主席我問一個一分鐘小問題那第二個就是很簡單的現在來講就是我們原住民其實最需要的您也知道就是農水署的業務、水保署的業務、農糧署的業務那我簡單說第一個部分"},{"start":14176.041,"end":14200.794,"text":"就是水保署或農糧署這邊都有針對原住民地區這些補助項目會增加個10%就是符合的話一定增加10%這是基於原鄉的成本很高那這個很好可是現在遇到兩個問題因為農水署剛改制成立啦所以他好像還沒有這一項所以麻煩部長農水署這個部分一樣來做好不好"},{"start":14204.136,"end":14207.524,"text":"我跟委員早前說明一下齁這個提高補助其實"},{"start":14209.246,"end":14238.309,"text":"以我的概念來講因為我一直認為原鄉地區原民部落他對這邊土地的守護的貢獻度因為他的貢獻度我願意把一些原民部落的一些補助經費有一次性的去做一個適當的處理好 謝謝那另外第二個碰到的問題就是說其實距離遠近喔我舉個例子齁像這個尖石鄉他光是那個漁老一直到他裡面的這個什麼馬胎齁他相距54公里欸"},{"start":14239.17,"end":14254.388,"text":"那個兩個多小時的車程所以我們是有族人提議說因為他們會叫不到廠商沒有人要來所以是不是這個部分也能夠依據他的距離遠近還是做一些程度的差別補助"},{"start":14255.959,"end":14285.115,"text":"我想謝謝委員這樣的一個提醒就是說因為原民部落很分散有的是很深山所以這個部分可能我們會去研議但是可能沒有辦法用一致性的用一公里多少可能太遠的部分我們可能會用專案的方式或者是用協助的方式去委請一些我們比較了解的廠商去來協助那那個農水路的經費我也之前關心過聽說明年會增加對吧"},{"start":14286.513,"end":14303.761,"text":"我們一年的農水路的經費大概是加起來沒有偷的加起來大概41啦但是因為全國地區很多農水路都要做但是我們會依照它的重要性我們會盡量來支持好我們希望來支持原鄉好謝謝部長謝謝各位署長謝謝主席接下來我們請圖圈局委員謝謝圖圈局委員在那邊等好久了謝謝"},{"start":14320.036,"end":14320.456,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14331.29,"end":14357.596,"text":"陳部長我想請問一下我們那個我們大園內海產業園區在112年3月的時候有召開可行性規劃公聽會在112年7月的時候也有辦環評說明會也在今年3月有召開徵收土地的公益性及必要性的說明會那這一部分目前已經到我們農業部那知道部長知道這個案子嗎"},{"start":14358.939,"end":14364.695,"text":"我現在目前吼那個文還沒到部長室來我是不是可以請農政水保署稍微說明一下好那請署長是來"},{"start":14366.605,"end":14367.665,"text":"那現在在我們農村水保署這邊有問題嗎?"},{"start":14393.407,"end":14396.069,"text":"據我們了解之前針對地主這些問題也都整合完畢價格也都談好那現在如果到我們這邊大概還有多久的時間?"},{"start":14419.429,"end":14442.203,"text":"現在我們把意見送出去到經濟部之後再轉到桃園市政府把這些意見因為這些意見大概都是涉及到目前區域裡面還有一些農民還在耕作所以有關於農民耕作這些權益的部分我們請桃園市政府跟農民這邊再做一個更進一步的協商之後如果沒意見大概很快就通過了"},{"start":14442.363,"end":14465.235,"text":"好,因為這個關於我們大園區這個經濟發展跟就業需求希望這部分我們農業部這邊盡快的幫我們協助處理好,我們會盡快的協助好,那還有我們針對我們農田水利署的部分因為我想請問一下我們在107年修法針對農田水利會修法"},{"start":14465.595,"end":14469.918,"text":"請問一下那目前到現在已經三年多的時間不知道現在覺得成效如何我想"},{"start":14482.83,"end":14508.224,"text":"整個從過往的農田水利署變成現在的農水署我覺得有一個非常重要的成效就是過去每一個農田水利會是獨立在運作的它比較缺乏橫向的一個聯繫那特別是我們在處理的時候農田水利會在處理灌區內的會員制的部分那成立了那個農田水利署的時候其實我們花了非常多的精力是在原本灌區外的這個部分"},{"start":14508.664,"end":14527.312,"text":"那這個灌區外的部分其實我們已經提供了大概5.6萬公頃的這些農田然後甚至於波地的部分以前那個農業水利會是不處理波地的這些灌溉系統那現在農水局有更多的資源去處理這些波地的灌溉系統的處理這是一個非常重要的一個貢獻"},{"start":14528.012,"end":14558.012,"text":"﹚"},{"start":14558.252,"end":14581.817,"text":"公頃到現在只有到36萬公頃少了5000多公頃然後排水設施工程也從之前的20公里到現在都沒有做農水工程改善渠道也都是下降這稅收渠道從109年到去年你看大概也只有到不到一半所以我們看起來這個績效好像是下降所以難怪農民對於我們覺得說"},{"start":14583.177,"end":14608.403,"text":"改為官派之後反而覺得這個效率變差好像所做的東西感覺變更少而且我們看我們他現在他的現金資產也從之前109年的445億我們現在查了以後到現在只剩408億也也花掉了賠掉了37億多那錢也花那麼多然後可是感覺這個績效是下降的"},{"start":14609.27,"end":14634.025,"text":"我跟委員說您所提供的這些數據我們這樣看起來是可能有一些計算上的一個錯誤我想根據您的那個指標我們會重新提供一個數據我在這邊只提供一個就是說原來農田水利會本身它的一個年度的預算其實是大概3至10億左右可是到了112年其實我們每一年提"},{"start":14635.126,"end":14658.211,"text":"投入的經費是到136億幾乎這個經費是投入的3倍那這個3倍不只是做灌區外其實也做灌區內的這些渠道的這些整修的部分那甚至於報休的那個時間點從過去的可能要10天2個禮拜才打電話叫人家來修的時候我們現在可能縮短到4、5天所以整個的這些"},{"start":14659.171,"end":14686.918,"text":"這些渠道的這些維修的效率是提高的所以我覺得後面本身的這些資訊我想會後我們會提供一個我們實際統計的資訊給委員做參考我這邊也跟部長報告因為我們地方基層我們常常在跑我們現在得到的聲音說以前他們向灌溉溝渠損壞他跟小組長一通報小組長就來看看完以後可能隔一兩天就來修復他說現在叫也叫不來有時候來了以後"},{"start":14687.338,"end":14713.131,"text":"看了以後又說今年沒錢明年再說他們說整個效率上真的差很多而且感覺好像要做這個也沒錢要做那也沒錢然後以前農民去到是老闆是頭家現在去到好像變成說農民反而好像去到裡面都是大官他們感覺整個感覺真的差非常多所以我覺得部長這部分要真的要請你們好好了解好好檢討一下"},{"start":14714.412,"end":14730.89,"text":"第一個部分就是我們的服務的態度我一定會要求我們的農民改善那第二個部分就是有關於這個就是農民的一個反應我們會正視這個問題到底他的問題的癥結點在哪邊那過往是通過小組長我們現在有個0801的服務專線"},{"start":14732.992,"end":14748.933,"text":"那透過小組長我們的另外一個訊息就是你有關係你就很快你如果沒有關係你就等到一年也等不到但是因為我們農水組在處理的時候我想我們會依據最快的速度我想服務的態度我們一定會改變"},{"start":14749.494,"end":14773.301,"text":"好,還有一點我也再提醒部長一下因為他們現在常常說現在修根的面積都非常大像110年的時候這庭怪的面積是20年最多他們說現在我們的農水署都常把這個水都給製造業生產用水反而不注重他們農田灌溉用水我希望這部分部長也多幫我們注意一下這個是絕對是錯誤的我想以農業部來講我們一定會確保我們的農田的"},{"start":14778.343,"end":14795.632,"text":"關閉的這水源的一個確保那相對的當你水情比較嚴峻的時候水庫沒辦法放水的時候那真的沒水可用我們用什麼用皮糖用很多溝渠本身的一個那個吸水去去加強灌溉所以我們會盡最大的努力去確保農業的水資源"},{"start":14796.973,"end":14807.764,"text":"希望這部長你還是了解一下因為他們都感覺現在都重視這個製造業反而不重視農業我覺得我們適度的說明很重要農業部一定會堅持我們的原則好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝來 經理這個"},{"start":14818.208,"end":14829.175,"text":"部長剛才在回答土委員因為他從早上9點多就等到現在他很慎重那依照我們程序但是部長剛才回答有兩件事情"},{"start":14830.39,"end":14856.35,"text":"主席他一定要提出第一個您說原先的小組長有關係很快沒關係一年都等不到這句話請你收回因為我們的小組長在地方每一個都非常用心假設我們真的有這樣子沒有關係小組長通知一年都還不來的話哇那個事大條啊你們的督導有問題啊絕對沒那回事的"},{"start":14859.873,"end":14879.221,"text":"我自己可以作證所以這一句話可能你愉快你要收回因為這個都有錄音錄音那第二個土委員關心的我想大家都非常關心不分藍綠白就是水權的問題當然在農業部您說全力支持但是坦白講真的"},{"start":14880.161,"end":14903.731,"text":"水位部分還是不夠所以我上個禮拜也才跟他們說你旁邊在綁,你給綁分分啦你水位你就有辦法縮輪,它就不會連起這個是可能農業部你還要再跟經濟部趕快農水署你要趕快再去跟他講上次就被我們抓到說要放4公分,只有放2公分半"},{"start":14904.511,"end":14917.315,"text":"我們帶隊去看他,坦白說他少放了一公分半,欺惡我們農民,不可以如此嗎?好不好?我們都全力為農民嗎?好不好?土偉,謝謝你。好,謝謝。接下來我們請何欣淳委員請做巡檔。謝謝我們主席,楊弘昭委。那我們是不是請部長?我們再請陳部長。"},{"start":14936.301,"end":14941.206,"text":"部長,農業為國之本所以大家都很關心農業不管是產業面或者是農民的權益跟照顧剛剛講到水的問題確實我們需要用水當然農業用水灌溉用水要優先我想這個是一定要的"},{"start":14959.542,"end":14970.171,"text":"那剛剛呢我認為說其實在地方的農民之間啊都會常常是有一些混淆的訊息包括像剛剛水這個問題為什麼會在農民那邊會認為說啊政府都照顧那個山楂啊沒照顧農民所以說連水啊先放給山楂沒放給農民剛剛部長說沒有沒有沒有我們是絕對農民優先我覺得部長這個態度要明確"},{"start":14986.986,"end":15005.763,"text":"理念要堅持說明要完整清楚讓人民知道讓農民知道這個你做得到嗎?我覺得你現在520之後你剛上任你最重大的任務就是這個你爭取之後我覺得最重要就是這個我想農業的水資源我們一定會"},{"start":15007.423,"end":15012.167,"text":"百分之百全力的去做一個確保而且部長不是只有農業的水資源的問題還有我們明年國土計畫法就要上路雖然我知道有委員提案要來修法延長實施的年限那但是呢以目前為止我們不管在這個第一線地方上聽到的或者是在網路上聽到的農民啊"},{"start":15036.507,"end":15041.889,"text":"農田的所有人是人心惶惶都覺得說政府要台灣農民政府這個國土計畫法上路之後農地都沒介紹所以農民現在心驚驚不知道怎麼辦因為得不到政府正確的資訊"},{"start":15054.073,"end":15058.375,"text":"政府要告訴他們說我們的國土計劃法要做的是什麼事即使國土計劃法通過了之後執行了之後我們政府又做了哪些配套來提升農地的一個這個效能然後來增加農民的收入確保農民的生活未來不會有影響不會差不會變壞土地價值不會崩解"},{"start":15083.123,"end":15102.597,"text":"部長,這個氛圍在地方上你走動你都沒有感受到嗎?我想,我謝謝委員的提醒齁那這個部分我想特別是在媒體特別是在我在在產業走的時候很多農民有這樣的一個反應齁那我覺得我們第一個雖然說有比較技術上的執行細節還在跟內政部討論但是整體來講我覺得我們的宣導不夠"},{"start":15106.32,"end":15123.662,"text":"那最重要就是說我們現在的特農一般農以後轉變成農一農二只要你從事農業你所有的權利都不會去變的不用去擔心可是你剛剛講這句話只要你從事的是農業那意思是說非農的所有的"},{"start":15124.463,"end":15126.445,"text":"對,我還沒說完第一個就是你只要你從事農業你所有的權益都會保障"},{"start":15144.904,"end":15164.23,"text":"而且就是未來的農業的資源現在是普遍的只要你從事農業都會處理未來我們會更精準的去做相關的一個產業的協助那第三個部分就是如果說農業你要有時候變更嘛他們很擔心你沒辦法去做變更你的價值就永遠被鎖住但是現在有兩個方法"},{"start":15164.73,"end":15188.808,"text":"一個方法可能比較長就是每5年檢討那個是我覺得是一個目標而已但是你也可以隨時透過鄉村的一個整體規劃去做一個調整所以這個部分我想我們最擔心的就是農業本身的這些原來的地木的使用那相對的經過國土規劃的時候其實某個程度它是更有彈性的"},{"start":15188.988,"end":15216.871,"text":"那部長我請教一下以你所知目前我們地方政府裡面有幾個縣市送上這個所謂國土計劃法裡面所要求要來審議的你可不可以再說以你所知目前有多少個地方政府對於這個國土計劃法的因應因為地方政府要提出計劃來送中央那目前有幾個地方政府提出你知道嗎應該是兩個"},{"start":15219.052,"end":15242.521,"text":"我記得是兩個還一個還兩個而已三個啦三個後來又提了聽說三個啦我的意思是說那全台灣現在目前就只有這兩三個啦其他都還提不出來那你就知道問題似乎不是我們想的那麼簡單他非常的複雜對他有他的複雜度啦他的複雜度所以呢已到今年年底之前"},{"start":15243.701,"end":15268.048,"text":"可預料的可預期的大概也不會多幾個縣市提出來那整個我是建議第一個我們自己農業部本與農地的管理跟農業的這個產業的一個這個我們自己要提出自己的態度自己的想法自己對於國土計劃法裡面我們應該要怎麼負責任的來提建議這第一個第二個在國土計劃法執行之前"},{"start":15268.948,"end":15285.98,"text":"因為有可能會演,因為有其他法案的版本要演嘛,那起碼在國土計畫法執行之前,我們是不是也應該負責任的來做有效的而且是正確的資訊的宣導或者是說明啊?"},{"start":15286.44,"end":15307.304,"text":"因為地方政府雖然有做但是我坦白講做的2266哩哩啷啷而且很多都是形式上的貴罪娘啦很多農民一般農民幾乎都接觸不到聽不到正確的資訊所以網路上我看到好多都是什麼那個仲介不動產公司的經理人不斷的告訴農民說因為國土計畫法要通過了"},{"start":15310.185,"end":15313.147,"text":"你未來的農地價值就會崩了所以你現在趕快趁機要來處理要來怎樣怎樣怎樣我覺得這些都是不應該的都是不對的是不是應該要給予正確的一個資訊"},{"start":15325.896,"end":15350.011,"text":"正確透明的資訊是最重要的而且要用農民聽得懂的話語來告訴他們來跟他們溝通要先溝通啊,要溝通清楚啦好不好謝謝委員我想這是農業部的一個責任那過去這個溝通如果說沒有到位其實我們應該要檢討我們現在就可以跟你講了就是我們要檢討所以我後續會針對國土計畫雖然說國土計畫的"},{"start":15353.453,"end":15370.165,"text":"一些跟農業部的我們應該更主動積極的去召開一些說明會甚至於聽取他們的一些回饋的聲音然後把這些可能似是而非的這些言論也能夠在第一時間的去消除第一時間要說明清楚要消除似是而非的論點"},{"start":15370.845,"end":15389.974,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":15390.034,"end":15409.369,"text":"我們國家政府權力沒有大到要把他們的綁實實的我們還是要尊重農地所有權人農民他們的聲音我覺得這個政策才能夠務實可行啦國土計劃法也才能夠推得動啦不然的話我是很擔憂的好不好部長好以上謝謝好謝謝我們請徐欣怡委員請做訓導"},{"start":15425.247,"end":15428.771,"text":"謝謝主席本席請部長我們再請陳部長委員好"},{"start":15438.222,"end":15459.139,"text":"本席就接著剛剛何委員的在講這個國土計劃法其實您剛剛的答詢大概也表達也知道現在整個落差很大甚至我們地方上都覺得你這國土計劃法的規劃跟實施不要像教改你知道教改是怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":15460.18,"end":15483.952,"text":"理論跟實際的情形沒有契合好那本席在這裡本席是新竹縣第一選區選出來的區域的立委我們地方上非常的憂心第一個就是說我們在國土計畫法你在畫的時候到底有沒有瞭解實際的情況千萬不要天龍國思維不要坐在冷氣房裡"},{"start":15485.012,"end":15508.721,"text":"我們地方就反映特農區特農應該是涼田但是呢特農他卻沒有水可以灌溉或已經有蓋建築物你化為特農區那你接著你畫一個山坡地保育區其實那邊全部是平地你把它列為森林保護區我們地方上這個都這種情形一定要"},{"start":15509.701,"end":15509.901,"text":"國土計畫法"},{"start":15528.352,"end":15542.26,"text":"實施下來只是徒立財團地方聲音就是這樣一直跟我們反映第4個真正想要務農的農民他的土地不一定被劃為農地所以地方非常憂心"},{"start":15543.22,"end":15561.565,"text":"所以這幾點我們這樣子來反映我們希望部長您能夠積極的來作為然後讓我們地方這些的疑慮還有這些這種不符合你的想法、你的計畫跟現實脫節的你一定要想辦法改進"},{"start":15566.185,"end":15584.82,"text":"我的時間我看你書面回答好了好不好那再來就是本席想要請議就是我們新竹沿海很多的這個養魚嘛就沿海很多養魚結果我們現在新竹沿海變成什麼魚的墳場為什麼變成魚的墳場部長你要不要猜看看"},{"start":15594.89,"end":15607.204,"text":"數長可不可以了解我應該是非常豐沛的這個魚群結果全部變魚的墳場你知道什麼原因嗎可能要請委員說明的更清楚是指哪一個部分"},{"start":15608.105,"end":15633.116,"text":"就我們的漁場啊應該是漁場結果都是魚的墳場因為我們有太多的漁礁把漁網被漁礁卡住然後呢沒有請當然本席知道我們漁業署有經費但是那個叫海保署他們也有那漁業署的部分所以我今天農業部在這我要特別講"},{"start":15634.896,"end":15657.47,"text":"我們地方漁民的反應就是都是清表面的就是做個意思意思表面功夫敷衍多年下來漁網被漁就是漁礁整個困住結果這些漁網呢就把漁全部弄死了所以漁場變漁的墳場這個情況我為新竹縣我們的沿海、新峰"},{"start":15663.894,"end":15679.03,"text":"主委這裡我們來請命是不是請漁業署可以來協助我想整個你剛才講的那個粉廠的部分我現在了解就是說很多漁礁因為其他的這些海洋垃圾包括漁網這個東西你如果沒有順利的清除的時候"},{"start":15680.391,"end":15695.999,"text":"會讓這個漁業的資源越來越少那相對的漁業署他每年都有編一些經費去處理那如果不夠的地方我想我們針對這個部分我想也請漁業署這邊去專案去了解那如果經費不夠的地方我想我們要清楚就應該要盡快對而且"},{"start":15698.18,"end":15724.645,"text":"不要每年做一點做一點等於沒清那那個魚你看這麼多年下來我們豐沛的這個海洋的這個生態整個就被我們人為這樣破壞了對那另外一個重點就是說現在新的這次網的實名制有沒有對對對這個有在實施在做了以後相對的你如果說有實名制的時候很容易抓到對對對減少是一件事情那已經存在的我們會盡努力的去處理好"},{"start":15726.105,"end":15752.376,"text":"主席不好意思我們最後再30秒就是有關我想我們也要肯定我們農業部剛修正了這個農業天然災害救助辦法因為養蜂養蜂的產業我相信我們的農民都是靠天吃飯當然不只養蜂產業但是我今天特別講的就是蜂蜜養蜂的蜂農他們也是因為氣候該冷的時候不冷"},{"start":15754.157,"end":15782.706,"text":"該有雨水的時候沒有雨水所以他們也很辛苦那我們瞭解到這一次好像是一箱是補助他們450元是不是?跟委員說明過去天然災害沒有這一項但是這一次我們把但是那是過去的疏失不是代表沒有就應該所以我們該改進我們就改進了就是說當蜜蜂沒有蜜園的時候它其實就是一種間接性的天然災害所以我們已經納入我們的天然災害救助辦法"},{"start":15783.146,"end":15797.554,"text":"那今天正在開專欄會議 是如果專欄會議通過的話我們就會公告正式公告為受災的一個情況那本席想請命的就是為我們民眾蜂農請命就是你一箱450元他們根本還是"},{"start":15800.336,"end":15802.958,"text":"這個費用的部分其實我們在內部討論其實有邀請的這些蜂農的協會他們大概對這個的一項的這個價格他們覺得是認同的"},{"start":15820.867,"end":15838.561,"text":"因為天然災害救助本身他是救助他的一個成本的20%不是說他的營業損失所以這個價格其實我們有透過這些密封的相關的那個協會他們覺得說這是一個合理的"},{"start":15839.241,"end":15840.042,"text":"我了解我了解"},{"start":15855.6,"end":15855.64,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":15879.403,"end":15897.219,"text":"所以我們這個農業的挑戰很大。誰也沒有想到蜜蜂採不到蜜,因為它沒有辦法開花。所以這連貫樹它可以補助,然後蜜沒辦法。所以這個就要請部長做任性農業全體的一個挑戰。謝謝。"},{"start":15899.02,"end":15900.201,"text":"陳秀寶﹑黃孟楷﹑林德福﹑王美惠﹑林楚瑛﹑羅志強﹑羅明財﹑陳冠廷﹑游浩﹑李博毅﹑"},{"start":15929.52,"end":15951.909,"text":"好,我們登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其餘的都已經發言完畢,詢答結束我們有委員林國成委員、劉建國委員、林俊憲委員、陳冠廷委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報那書面質詢及為其答覆的部分請相關單位於一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":15953.55,"end":15966.527,"text":"本日所列的議程處理完畢我們星期四繼續開會謝謝所有的議事主任員謝謝媒體朋友也謝謝部長以及所有的與會人士大家辛苦了加油謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}