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"end":1868.796,"text":"公共工程落實循環經濟成立再生力量運用與公共工程跨部會推動小組推動使用粉化再生力量以及煉鋼爐渣112年去化量均已大於產出量穩定去化中已見成效"},{"start":1869.597,"end":1886.142,"text":"第二為擴大使用濾金分離土挖泡除料以通行要求機關與工程中盡可能達成拋用平衡且不得要求廠商回購對於現堆置與濾金廠之拋除料亦正延伸去化作業"},{"start":1887.702,"end":1911.967,"text":"第三協助推動重大計畫促進區域發展均衡協助機關檢視計畫之推動期程分期分階循序啟動穩健推動並平衡區域發展二加速計畫及基本設計的審議並持續納入本會列管主動協調解決跨部會問題以加速推動執行"},{"start":1913.936,"end":1927.115,"text":"第二關於精進公共工程管理部分一提升施工查核成效持續精進獎勵措施一落實查核選案原則以民眾檢舉媒體報導決標"},{"start":1931.281,"end":1958.684,"text":"標價偏低進度明顯落後大幅變更契約等為優先查核對象並加強查核聚合工程113年度截至4月底以查核1379件第二嚴厲材料試驗運用科技設備以強化防偽措施第三落實查核缺失改善追蹤強化考核諸位確保缺失確實改善"},{"start":1959.909,"end":1966.155,"text":"金淨金職獎獎勵措施至89年契112年已辦理23屆其中公共工程品質優良獎祭697件公共設施維護管理獎祭47件個人貢獻獎祭149人得獎近年並以新增"},{"start":1982.11,"end":1995.909,"text":"公辦職人獎特別貢獻獎且將防火性能列入公共設施維護管理獎評審項目第二採全生命週期管控主動協處公建計劃"},{"start":1999.195,"end":2006.077,"text":"掌握工程計畫執行進度截至113年4月底共列管408項總經費7876.89億元經費達成率25.16%將逐月以督導匯報管控達成本年度達成率95%的目標值"},{"start":2020.16,"end":2045.155,"text":"第二主動協處困難問題每月召開督導會報並不定期實地查訪113年截至5月已辦理7次計劃訪查第三加速停工終結約工程復工或重新發包針對未執行金額較大之案件定期開會協助排除困難已排定113年6月14日針對37案提供協處"},{"start":2049.98,"end":2069.781,"text":"第4督促機關一約加速付款。113年度節日4月底,廠商通報案件列管共計3件,機關均已完成付款結案,令主動篩選預期付款標案計45件,督促機關全部完成付款結案,付款金額4.11億元。"},{"start":2072.344,"end":2091.296,"text":"第5規納流標原因提出因應作為自107年起以協助機關檢視流標案件計340餘件並將相關注意事項及因應作為向機關宣導在各機關努力下工程採購近一年兩"},{"start":2094.571,"end":2096.973,"text":"112年4月到113年3月兩次內招標決標率達約92%較113年87%提升將持續協處第三強化機關職安管理加強最弱風險案件查核"},{"start":2113.976,"end":2129.049,"text":"一、預計113年完成藉階勞動部僱主違反勞動法令資料庫並將建置警示訊息提醒各機關加強職安管理第二、應用廠商履歷篩選潛在風險案件配合勞動部113年營造業墜落打擊年"},{"start":2136.155,"end":2157.068,"text":"針對有發生墜落災害疑慮之公共工程案件加強查核第4抽查橋樑維護管理及設施使用情形橋樑維護管理情形定期盤點全國橋樑維護管理情形將於113年抽查8件特殊性橋樑之維護管理情形執行情形"},{"start":2158.188,"end":2175.437,"text":"公有建築有效使用情形設施管理機關每年至少主動辦理一次清查本會議定113年6月召開督導會議113年12月前完成20件抽查加速地方災後復建工程"},{"start":2176.763,"end":2191.866,"text":"一統籌各部會辦理審議協助地方政府加速辦理公用設施災後復建工程二為加速113年0403地震災後復原重建已經建立專案小組召開列管會議並採集報及審於5月24日召開花蓮縣及雲林縣地方"},{"start":2199.128,"end":2219.069,"text":"復健經費之審議會計合列131件經費約7億元。打造高效低碳採購第一納入全生命週期成本考量以計劃階段將後續使用或營運維修成本報費處理以及成本消費等一併納入編列計劃經費"},{"start":2222.487,"end":2245.878,"text":"與採購階段將全生命週期成本項目列為評分項目第二徵修政府採購相關範本指引一持續編修政府採購企業範本將節能減碳納入設計考量要求公有建築取得建築能效標示分化再生力料等納入力受採購績效來平和"},{"start":2249.78,"end":2265.871,"text":"共同供應契約之廠商提供產品探索機資訊供機關優先選購低碳產品第二編定指引手冊協助機關辦理資訊服務採購於112年9月25日定定各類資訊服務採購之共通性失通安全基本要求參考一覽表以及資訊服務採購作業指引並於113年5月1日定定"},{"start":2278.059,"end":2297.106,"text":"政府資訊服務採購經費估算編列手冊第三應用工程履歷引進悠揚廠商一持續建置工程履歷目前已有一萬四千余家施工廠商之履歷資料督促施工廠商自我要求第二擴充人員履歷"},{"start":2298.306,"end":2317.052,"text":"公機關查詢應用於履約管理藉以督促參與公共工程之人員自我替力第三引進優良廠商將廠商公共工程履約情形納入評分以擇優太烈第四持續推動政府採購之電子化一持續推動電子領標"},{"start":2320.63,"end":2330.359,"text":"檢審廠商領標成本112年度機關提供電子招標文件之案件計22.5萬餘件電子領標比例達99.66%113年度將持續朝全面電子化邁進"},{"start":2338.146,"end":2360.835,"text":"二加速推動電子投標增進採購效力一百一十三年度財務及工程採購電子投標目目標值分別為百分之五十一百分之十二持續強化電子投標之便利性及信賴度第四加速並提升禮約正義調解成功力一"},{"start":2361.855,"end":2384.183,"text":"提升調解案件之處理及效率一百零九年至一百一十二年本會調解成立率約八成一百一十三年將精進調解流程加速案件之處理提升處理效率第二設置政府採購諮詢機制減少契約條款認知起義至一百一十三年四月底"},{"start":2385.083,"end":2388.447,"text":"召開諮詢會議協處案件及122件約7乘3採納本會議件事實化解機關與廠商間對企業條款認知起義避免衍生理業爭議"},{"start":2399.87,"end":2423.842,"text":"三節以公共工程建設之推動與民眾福祉息息相關並為國家經濟發展之主要動力本會積極協助各機關排除公共工程推動上所遇到的困難與障礙全力協助加速公共建設之推動以增進經濟動能以上報告敬請主席及各位委員先進指教謝謝"},{"start":2430.876,"end":2455.572,"text":"請陳主委回座現在介紹在場的委員林國成委員林沛翔委員現在介紹列席的官員行政院公共工程委員會陳金德主委陳維翔副主委"},{"start":2458.442,"end":2478.596,"text":"李怡德副主委主任秘書羅天健企劃處徐兆熙處長技術處曾鈞敏處長工程管理處黃順昌處長秘書處邵志祺處長好一下簡略"},{"start":2490.988,"end":2516.807,"text":"現在進行尋討．發言時間出席委員6加1分鐘．列席委員5分鐘．委員發言登記於10點30分截止．各委員如有提案．請於10點前提出．以便議事人員會診．暫定10點30分休息．中午原則上不休息．"},{"start":2517.962,"end":2538.299,"text":"現在請登記第一位林佩祥委員發言又請陳主委請陳主委議員早"},{"start":2548.388,"end":2564.627,"text":"陳主委先從我們國家的大方向來看好了我們知道所謂的2050的這個淨零減碳全面淨零的轉型是我們中華民國的目標那本席想知道在公共工程上面怎麼樣能夠全面納入所謂的淨零碳排"},{"start":2566.95,"end":2578.728,"text":"在生態減核或者是淨零碳排的制度面上面如何把減碳的部分能夠納入而且制定具體的執行期程跟執行方式這方面主委您的看法是什麼呢?"},{"start":2580.405,"end":2600.572,"text":"好謝謝委員指教那麼所有的工建的設施啊占整個碳排放的占一定比例啊除了這個石化業或者電力業等等公共建設是占一定比例所以呢那麼為了完成2050淨零排放的目標在公共建設部分啊那麼"},{"start":2602.372,"end":2624.138,"text":"這個工程會本理執掌在所有的公共設施計畫在基本設計的審查的時候就會要求納入那麼整個計畫在減排的考量那在施作的時候會進行查核那麼是否符合能夠減排的一些必要的設施那麼在"},{"start":2625.678,"end":2653.768,"text":"所有的相關的建材方面就是碳排比較大的一些建材那麼會進行資料的收集那麼納入一個資料庫相關碳排係數會納入一個資料庫提供給各機關辦理公設施的機關來作為參佐那麼務必在達到這個2050那麼進行排放國家總目標在公共設施這部分進一份力量"},{"start":2654.667,"end":2672.831,"text":"好那另外一個議題就是有關所謂的綠色採購我們都知道說從公共採購的力量來執行推動的時候這個歐盟有一套所謂的Green Public Procurement也就是所謂的綠色公共採購的標準那GPP的標準涵蓋認證之利的那我想請問主委說現在有的採購規定要如何能夠納入所謂的永續指標將循環條件循環度"},{"start":2682.913,"end":2707.886,"text":"可回收材質比例包裝材料等面向納入採購標準謝謝委員指教因為綠色採購的主管機關是環境部工程會基於公共工程的主管機關會全力配合環境部就綠色採購部分要求辦理機關進行符合環境部標準的綠色採購也會"},{"start":2711.327,"end":2738.017,"text":"將所有綠色採購的相關資訊提供給各機關作為採購的依據謝謝剛剛我在看報告的時候我看到報告第10頁有關工程履歷的運用也就是希望用工程履歷來引進所謂的優良廠商那就讓本席想到另外一個議題就是有關金職獎的發放其實這個議題本來是在上一位主委吳哲成主委的時候本席就想來質詢了"},{"start":2739.777,"end":2758.451,"text":"因為我個人認為說我們看到有很多很多的例子在金質獎的發放上面是相對腐爛的而且後面沒有一定的這個後續的處置動作許一個例子基隆市政府在2022年8月23日直接發布新聞基隆市勢力田徑場館的運動機能提升環境營造獲得最佳規劃設計類金質獎"},{"start":2765.295,"end":2780.104,"text":"基本上來講本席是基隆選出來的立委那這個體育場我本來也在那邊運動過超過30年以上但是現在到目前今天工程還沒有完工原因是因為有發生重大的失誤根據報導記載"},{"start":2782.805,"end":2799.132,"text":"原建築師事務所提送第二次變更設計內容因設計缺失而造成工期延宕約150天換算成工程進度達20%以上延誤履約期限情節重大設計疏失約6000萬到8000萬元也就是說"},{"start":2802.754,"end":2811.096,"text":"基隆市的田徑廠重建工程．歷經兩次發包從4億1600多萬．得標廠商認為設計有瑕疵．而無法施工．寧願棄標解約．而原林宥昌市府團隊卻認為．設計無誤而不願改變設計．要再追加預算到6億．尤其是再發包得標的廠商．還是認為有瑕疵"},{"start":2829.319,"end":2854.949,"text":"結果在追加預算變更設計才進行工程換言之2021年開工2021年2月開工的基隆市田徑廠工程此時卻只能目標設定在明年2025年8月底才能完工已經比原定的日期足足晚了20個月主委你認為這樣是值得一個金職獎的獎勵嗎"},{"start":2856.949,"end":2857.149,"text":"請問主委"},{"start":2884.289,"end":2895.281,"text":"如果是公共工程中發生瑕疵卻獲得公共工程金值獎那是不是應該檢討續獎要件或者考慮追回獎項並追究相關人員責任呢?"},{"start":2898.736,"end":2926.262,"text":"謝謝委員指教委員這個提示非常的確實那麼我們將來會研議關於金質獎的辦法目前金質獎評審呢是在完工階段所以我們會將來金質獎的評審會從動工到完工這個階段都有一些節點會去查核會評這個會考評納入最終金質獎的評估以後我們正在研議當中那麼剛才"},{"start":2928.382,"end":2951.992,"text":"委員所指教的這個金字獎已經追回那有沒有有沒有相關的這個追究相關責任相關的問題我們會後再跟委員報告好好謝謝謝謝林佩祥委員發言現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":2958.649,"end":2964.31,"text":"好謝謝主席本集邀請我們工程會陳金德主委請陳主委主委好主委我們今天來關心採購各項採購案為什麼會發生弊案為什麼會有浪費工廠的情形"},{"start":2984.929,"end":3005.906,"text":"那這其中就是這五點這不是我寫的這是審計單位所提列出來的就有五大共同性的缺失所以會造成我們一些工程的採購弊案甚至也會有浪費工廠的狀況他說第一點你沒有合理的編列工程預算"},{"start":3007.291,"end":3033.226,"text":"這裡講的就是說你看得到部分工程單價都是偏離市場行情超過太高甚至有的工程整體跟市價相比就是說有很大的一個差距也就是編得太寬鬆太高這當中就產生會有弊案的那種狀況第二個就是沒有按照規定何時訂定底價"},{"start":3036.848,"end":3051.952,"text":"第三點沒有周圓的保存採購文件所以他很多文件他沒有保存好的時候會造成哪裡判定投標廠商有沒有違標等等異常的狀況第四點他說採購的評選過程不嚴謹就是評選的問題再來就是驗收作業不周全"},{"start":3064.631,"end":3073.875,"text":"請問這幾點我們工程會有哪些工程會認為應該可以啦就你工程會本身的職責你可以來改善了謝謝委員指教"},{"start":3078.444,"end":3106.563,"text":"工程會主管是政府採購法那麼在公共工程部分是在重大一定額度以上的公共工程在在工程會會有基本設計的審查甚至在招審決標的過程工程會有督導之責所以工程會會依照這個相關的採購法及執法的相關規定加上一些作為標準那權力督促要求各主辦機關確實"},{"start":3110.084,"end":3122.688,"text":"來改善如上委員所提示的這5個缺失我希望曾主委上來能夠針對過去大概整理出來採購弊案的發生的種種樣態能夠提出對策來改善我們各項的招標採購"},{"start":3133.271,"end":3154.776,"text":"再來在政策性的推動上那工程會這裡我提出一點就我們現在需要進行的節能減碳那我們在節能減碳上其中有一點就是對於營造材料那其中在"},{"start":3156.328,"end":3178.366,"text":"由台灣營建研究院所舉辦的根據聯合國氣候變遷大會組成的先行者聯盟宣誓支持水泥和混泥土的低碳採購協議聯盟的成員就包括台灣成功到2030年以前我們每一年都要至少購買10%的低碳排的水泥或者混泥土"},{"start":3179.813,"end":3204.227,"text":"大家知道其實基本上混凝土佔碳排放量在全世界大概佔了8%就人類進行各項的工程一定都會用到混凝土其實佔了非常高的碳排放量全球大概8%那碳排放在混凝土裡面主要就是水泥的製成所以每一公噸的水泥大概會釋放900公斤的二氧化碳"},{"start":3205.373,"end":3217.982,"text":"那麼約賬混凝土排放量的90%也就是說混凝土的主要碳排放都是來自水泥那因此呢政府啊就推動啊要用石灰石水泥你知道這個事情"},{"start":3221.977,"end":3222.997,"text":"但實際使用上不是這樣子啊"},{"start":3251.627,"end":3276.049,"text":"你理解的跟現況是不一樣現在業者反映因為你石灰石水泥工程會又規定它不得已摻料那你不得已摻料的話用起來就不好用了那你會規定它不能摻料是因為你怕它摻的料會不會影響到以後因為石灰石水泥不是一般的傳統水泥怕影響到它的安全性"},{"start":3277.481,"end":3305.195,"text":"所以呢所以國內的業者現在都不用石灰石水泥使用率非常非常低那其中的工程會規定你如果業者要參料石灰石水泥你要參料那麼你必須要經過第三方專業機構驗證那麼政府才會同意你去使用參料的石灰石水泥所以你現在造成現在的營造廠工程單位根本都不用石灰石水泥"},{"start":3306.175,"end":3332.66,"text":"你知道真的是吧那你這樣就就曲解了就這種要推動碳排減放啊你就遇到了一個跟實際使用狀況非常矛盾的一個地方啊你了解這個事情嗎所以如果你未來真的要鼓勵業者採用低碳排的建築材料啊那麼你應該要有相當政策性的鼓勵或者是你必須要放寬的地方啊因為你加什麼水你那成本會比較高啊"},{"start":3334.226,"end":3339.391,"text":"業者以成本來講的話他絕對可以避免他盡量不要用"},{"start":3340.632,"end":3366.439,"text":"所以未來我們是不是在工程採購政府帶頭你要推動嘛那麼是不是會有例如如果你使用環保節能低碳排的建築材料那麼我就給你獎勵也就是說你在編列預算的時候就給他獎勵或者是或者是呢你拉入工程的金質獎你在考核考核評量工程金質獎的時候你要計算他使用多少"},{"start":3367.72,"end":3395.96,"text":"環保地碳排的材質這個也必須納入考量我看你對這個問題好像還不是很了解主委向委員報告那麼關於要經第三方的這個驗證然後報機關同意才能使用這一部分我會遵照委員的指示來做相關的研擬來修正那麼也會鼓勵各相關機關在源頭在編列預算的時候就落實使用水池水泥"},{"start":3398.042,"end":3408.387,"text":"好謝謝主委謝謝主席林俊憲委員發言完畢現在請陳素月委員發言"},{"start":3426.438,"end":3429.761,"text":"謝謝主席請主席邀請陳主委請陳主委陳委員早主委早安就是我們知道這個2050淨零碳排可以說是整個世界的一個趨勢那我們根據那個統計資料就是我國每年的這個碳排的這個碳淨排放量達到"},{"start":3455.561,"end":3479.393,"text":"兩萬七千五百一十五萬噸那其中就是以這個公共工程可以說是這個碳排的大戶所以我們要減碳的話應該就是我們政府要從公共工程來帶頭做起那這個部分在之前的主委在這個部分也有陸續在推動相關的政策今天看到您的這個施政報告裡面也有提到"},{"start":3479.853,"end":3499.105,"text":"相關的這淨零碳排的一些政策那在這邊就是有關這個淨零碳排當然就是說在這個工程裡面就是以這個材料針對這個材料是要從這個材料去著手下手那我們看到就是在2023年的這個第28屆聯合國氣候變遷大會裡面加拿大德國英國美國有發起設定"},{"start":3507.351,"end":3514.989,"text":"公有建築以建材為主的運含碳減量目標推行國內地碳建築採購政策的方式"},{"start":3515.706,"end":3538.093,"text":"規定要在國家級的建設使用低碳水泥的混泥土那這個在國外也行之有年了就是包括這個美國他有很多的這個大型的一個建設道路交通的一個建設都有採用這個低碳水泥那我想請教一下目前我們國內就是公共工程針對這個低碳水泥的一個政策是如何"},{"start":3540.703,"end":3557.937,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那麼低碳水泥就是石灰石水泥那麼現在這個石灰石水泥在各台灣的水泥公司這個產品已經相當成熟了那目前使用上我看的資料是需經第三方驗證之後報"},{"start":3560.58,"end":3576.478,"text":"主管機關同意才能使用那麼一直會覺得說相當的不方便那麼甚至規範裡面還有禁止參配其他的材料所以導致導致這個混凝土廠他就"},{"start":3577.079,"end":3599.862,"text":"不在就比較不喜歡用這個紫微水你受限你相關的施工規範那麼這個跟委員報告啊那麼工程會課正在研擬相關的修正那麼讓這個這個混凝土業者能夠使用這個啊這個低碳的紫微水那麼達到減碳的目標這個我們在課正在研討修正當中"},{"start":3601.833,"end":3613.242,"text":"目前我們國內的水泥大廠他們也有已經研發出低碳水泥這樣子的普特蘭石灰石水泥所以它的減碳的%數可以達到10%"},{"start":3617.585,"end":3640.299,"text":"﹚"},{"start":3641.564,"end":3669.043,"text":"剛剛包括林委員也有在關心的那主委也有提到的就是說需要這個第三方的專業機構的一個認證這個部分可能對業者可能會有比較比較多的一些阻礙那這方面另外是不是會不會造成成本的一個增加這個部分主委有沒有去了解這部分所謂成本增加是驗證過程會增加成本這部分比較還不是很清楚"},{"start":3670.481,"end":3697.338,"text":"好那這個部分就是我們就是如果說我們對於公共工程我們可以來帶頭使用這個低碳水你當然能夠達到這個減碳的一個目標那事實上在之前我也有質詢過那個主委就是有關我們政府公共工程在推動這個減碳的這樣子的一個政策目標的時候事實上我們也有在"},{"start":3698.8,"end":3705.876,"text":"針對電子採購網就是政府的電子採購網有新增這個減碳的一個欄位這個主委你知道嗎"},{"start":3707.779,"end":3732.452,"text":"我跟委員報告那麼檢探欄位這部分根據我初步的瞭解是應該在試行當中這個整個還沒有很全面性的實施這部分我們在就初步在因為我瞭解好像工程會之前是說今年3月會上線可是到目前好像還沒有上線"},{"start":3733.392,"end":3743.138,"text":"對我會進一步再把這個政策再盤查再討論那麼詳細之後再來做必要的調整或決定"},{"start":3744.153,"end":3769.066,"text":"是那就是這個回到剛剛我問到了這個低碳水泥的這個部分如果說你在這個減碳你要新增減碳的欄位那如果說你工程會對於相關建材的一個使用你沒有一個明確的一個開放的一個政策的話那未來這個營造廠商相關的單位他要如何去填寫這個減碳的欄位問"},{"start":3773.795,"end":3801.23,"text":"關於這個公共設施使用的這個原料或建材那麼它的碳排系數那麼工程會也課證這個在希望在每個機關在辦理公共建設的時候在施做的過程當中能夠做一個盤查然後來收集相關的碳排系數在資料庫裡面那希望將來比較完整之後會提供給各機關來使用"},{"start":3802.976,"end":3819.429,"text":"我想就是這個節能減碳、淨零碳排這個是真的是一個未來趨勢然後也是一個很新的觀念那我們在政策上還有這個實務上要怎樣去落實這個可能有很多面向要去考量"},{"start":3820.35,"end":3843.05,"text":"所以這部分可能要請主委多費心那另外就是說我們也看到主委今天的報告裡面在第10頁你有提到就是我們針對就是要打造高效低碳的採購那你這邊有提到說配合內政部要求公有建築取得建築能效標示"},{"start":3845.212,"end":3862.119,"text":"建築能效標示這個部分在內政部在2022年他就已經有公布了這樣子的一個認證的一個標準那我們目前工程會在公有建築的這個部分推展的進度如何是請同仁來回答目前有開始在推了嗎"},{"start":3870.97,"end":3893.87,"text":"跟委員報告目前7月範本已經把綠建築5000萬以上都要求要取得綠建築標章那這個節能標是我們現在也站在修7月範本之後也會放進去要透過7月來要求廠商來達成這個目標可是我們只是要求可是廠商我想對這個可能都還不是很清楚所以我們是不是不能只是片面的一個要求你要如何去協助是不是那個主委"},{"start":3898.023,"end":3920.077,"text":"當然7月範本有對各機關有指引作用那可能廠商那邊也需要相對的一些資訊所以工程會必須做必要的說明或是必要的宣導或者是說請各機關那麼在設計的時候那麼就能夠有充分的資訊來做這樣的一個節能的標能源的標效能的標示"},{"start":3920.917,"end":3922.457,"text":"陳素月委員發言完畢現在請林國成委員發言"},{"start":3967.162,"end":3969.943,"text":"好主席請陳主委請陳主委委員長好陳主委當然據我對你個人之了解當然你來接公共工程會這"},{"start":3989.58,"end":4016.866,"text":"我個人對你的評語但是報章雜誌當然對你有一些負面但是據我了解你也不是說負面到那種給人家有一種是很爛的主委但是在這個部分我們大家都知道你就是"},{"start":4018.376,"end":4026.937,"text":"每一次的職務都是代理代理包括甚至已兼的石油公司的董事長"},{"start":4027.867,"end":4056.82,"text":"那既有工會當然我也很熟人家對你的評語也不是像一般報章雜誌對你的這些評語所以我們說實在的我側面所了解報章雜誌在報是另外一種事但是我了解你個人還是處事利落民快的人還有既有這些破例"},{"start":4057.939,"end":4073.161,"text":"還有協調能力極強這是我對你側面所瞭解當然因為未來在整個主委跟立法院這裡的關係當然我們彼此之間要瞭解對方"},{"start":4073.982,"end":4087.81,"text":"那當然報章雜誌說你是購水的主委主委你能不能說一下媒體對你說購水這兩個字你有什麼看法"},{"start":4089.166,"end":4104.199,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想很多報導或猜測都是誤會了都不了解實際上的情形非常謝謝這個委員剛才的一些對我的一些勉勵"},{"start":4108.381,"end":4109.822,"text":"行政院公共工程委員主委"},{"start":4127.803,"end":4153.212,"text":"主委當然這個是一個澄清那未來我們在立法院裡面當然共同為老百姓做事這是立法委員職責也是主委的職責那我在這裡當然我就要回歸政體要請教主委大家都說行政院部會裡面"},{"start":4154.753,"end":4158.538,"text":"就是我們公共工程委員會是一個孤兒單位"},{"start":4160.57,"end":4187.121,"text":"因為你的協調能力極強所以這個定位的問題我非常有興趣每一次都要解散公共工程委員會可是我個人認為公共工程委員會非常重要你不要以為是幕僚單位因為你看全國多少個公共工程的企業都要你們要提供範本"},{"start":4187.941,"end":4215.246,"text":"所以這個單位在本席的認知是非常重要的單位所以能不能代替你這個單位跟行政院要溝通不要一天到晚做成解釋要解散這個單位我個人的看法是不能解散的這個單位是不但要存在還要政府機關要非常去重視他主委你有什麼看法"},{"start":4217.311,"end":4236.19,"text":"的確公共工程委員目前按照公共工程委員組織條例他所擔負的職責是跨部會的協調的工作很多而且在政府採購法裡面他針對公共工程委員的主委這一職指定必須由政府委員兼任"},{"start":4237.111,"end":4253.297,"text":"所以如果公共工程委員會主改變成某一個部會的處那就涉及到這個政府採購法裡面所謂政委來兼的這樣的一個當初的設計啦所以我們認為在目前的政策下我們全力以赴做好"},{"start":4254.137,"end":4268.806,"text":"為國家貢獻了工作。 是啦主委主委我的意思就是說不要一天到晚多說要解散公共工程委員會那在本時的認知裡面不要說實在這是公務人員不然會人心惶惶"},{"start":4270.668,"end":4287.408,"text":"這邊我希望你要跟卓院長啊要去報告這個事實不要一天到晚好像這個單位隨時要被裁測要被歸件這等等這對你們的同仁這對你自己的士氣都不好可是你要那個下請要上打"},{"start":4287.988,"end":4308.545,"text":"讓我們的院長知道這個重要性所以這點我特別要提醒主委另外一個本席非常關心的就是因為我們的合約全國的合約基本的範本我很重視的是勞工薪資的部分"},{"start":4309.906,"end":4334.022,"text":"這個是這個範本裡面我記得吳主委他有答應我你們也有在做也就是勞工薪資的部分這個這個要把它放在強制放在我們全國的標準的範本所以這個部分我相信幕僚人員應該也有跟你報告吳主委很贊同我的看法"},{"start":4334.582,"end":4361.908,"text":"也就是全國換本現在所產生一個新知無法新知無法幾乎就是大包是對政府但是小大包發給小包叫中包中包又發給小包到最後小包是無法拿到這些新知的這個是一個問題那如果主委這裡願意把它當成一個問題"},{"start":4363.388,"end":4390.894,"text":"去做研究把統一規範的這些全國的這些公共工程的合約範本把它放進兩個問題第一薪資的問題我不管你小包大包只要有人檢舉說他領不到薪水那這個部分你大包還是要負責那這個是第一第二如果植栽花生非常之多尤其是公共工程的部分這個部分"},{"start":4394.013,"end":4411.822,"text":"職災的部分非常嚴重那你的報告也有說跟勞動部啊這個勞動部啊職安署這裡有做配合但是我要拜託主委這兩點的部分如果放在全國公共工程的合約換本裡面這對勞工的職安有幫助對勞工的薪資有保障這些東西我相信我們我們主委你是從基層上來"},{"start":4423.348,"end":4438.314,"text":"你最了解這雖然很小的事但是我們公共工程把它做納入合約的換本在內我相信這是對勞工這兩項是有保障主委你的看法"},{"start":4439.532,"end":4439.852,"text":"謝謝主委"},{"start":4465.819,"end":4478.364,"text":"謝謝林國昌委員的發言接著我們請李坤哲召委發言謝謝主席請一下陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":4485.496,"end":4510.371,"text":"委員長 主委您好 剛才林國成委員也是關注勞工的議題 因為林國成委員過去也是美容美髮業 技術工會專攻聯合會理事長 所以我們跟林國成委員對勞工的安全以及權益 是相當的一個重視 在過去我們也在要求 負責全國公共工程"},{"start":4511.091,"end":4539.193,"text":"以及相關的這樣的一個政府採購的主管機關就是公共工程委員會對於勞工的安全必須要有具體的一個保障所以在過去我們也要求針對政府的公共工程不管是他的公共工程的品質還有勞工的安全的保障相關的查核必須要達到10%以上那相關的進度是不是請陳主委你有了解嗎來說明一下"},{"start":4543.001,"end":4569.162,"text":"工程的查核應該要到10%以上我想工程會針對相關列管的公共工程一直在做查核當然查核他包括剛才委員所指教的是品質進度當然也包括相關的公安的設施這一部分除了工程會去查核之外也會配合勞動部的相關的"},{"start":4570.704,"end":4589.864,"text":"這個公安的檢查啦我們這會配合這個委員的要求提高整個查核的比例那我們要求相關的這些不管是工程的品質還有勞工的安全相關的查核必須啊積材要達到比例百分之十以上那目前的進度有沒有達到來請相關的人來說明一下"},{"start":4592.666,"end":4613.965,"text":"報告委員在112年度查核的比例達到11.68%所以有達到這個必須要逐年的提升我們要求這樣對於工程的品質以及勞工的安全才會有更具體的一個保障那我們看相關的這些在過去我們要求加強對於職安法相關的尤其是第6條有關於"},{"start":4616.658,"end":4617.018,"text":"主管來說明"},{"start":4643.189,"end":4653.561,"text":"這也代表著建樹雖然減少財閥金額越來越高也代表這些公共工程的安全性它的嚴重性是不是也越來越高來說明一下"},{"start":4655.919,"end":4661.541,"text":"主委你看看這三年來三大職災的這些事故的因素跌倒每年平均有3000件"},{"start":4686.021,"end":4714.831,"text":"那被刺被割擦傷啊平均每年都有1900件被捲被夾平均每年啊大概有1500件這若是我們自己的家人喔受了這種這一夜的傷害我想我們一定都很難過所以對勞工的安全我們必須公共工程委員會除了採購除了相關的公共工程的品質要嚴格把關之外對勞工的安全啊公共工程委員會也是必須站在第一線啊"},{"start":4716.712,"end":4726.164,"text":"來嚴格的督促。那我們看到啊,職災死亡的主要因素也包含翻滾掉落或是物體倒崩塌或是被夾捲這些啊"},{"start":4728.459,"end":4728.519,"text":"謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":4751.835,"end":4767.803,"text":"那關於職安的部分除了既有的相關主管機關勞動部他的根據相關法律檢查之外的工程會也去去集合除了過去的這些做法之外我們目前正在研議就是一個公共工程的金職獎的評審目前大概是針對"},{"start":4773.466,"end":4773.926,"text":"公共設施"},{"start":4802.125,"end":4813.587,"text":"主委在過去我要求建立相關的工程履歷可以供外界來查詢那這個相關的建設進度如何來說明一下目前的成效"},{"start":4816.607,"end":4838.317,"text":"向委員報告目前重大職災的部分已經納到工程履歷那我們對於要求提高查核的成效也必須要陸續的來提升跟加強另外我們要建立民眾對於相關工程缺失的通報的一個管道以及處理的機制也請說明一下相關人員說明一下"},{"start":4842.874,"end":4857.335,"text":"報告委員有關這個全民督工的這個部分目前每年的建築大約有一千件然後我們在處理的時效每一件大概兩天而且在這個民眾的滿意度部分也達到八成"},{"start":4858.612,"end":4877.553,"text":"好另外我們對於這個勞工安全之外更要提升我們相關公共工程的一個品質那公共工程的品質就是要提升公共品質的這種公共工程承包業者的這樣一個品質也是我們公共工程委員會一個重要的責任"},{"start":4878.214,"end":4902.442,"text":"那在前任主委吳哲成主委時期的這個工程會有提出一個機制就是評分及格最低標的這樣的一個機制那這個部分其實我們有看到說他要求廠商標案的企劃書就服務建議書必須要先通過機關的審查企劃書的評分總平均分數"},{"start":4903.502,"end":4927.105,"text":"要高於80分的廠商才能參加後續的議價比價那機關從企劃書及格的廠商之中選擇價格最低的廠商來得標他這樣的用意主委你應該清楚他先淘汰一些不良紀錄的廠商淘汰不良紀錄的廠商來改善最低標有些"},{"start":4928.186,"end":4943.347,"text":"不良的廠商要壓低價格不顧品質來搶標這樣的作為希望有具體的改善那我希望是不是能夠將職場的安全衛生這個項目也納入平分的項目來說明一下"},{"start":4944.755,"end":4970.571,"text":"這個部分委員相當重視我們會透過指引或跟各機關來協調希望各機關在辦理公共工程採購的時候在契約裡面在招標過程當中那麼這個服務建議書裡面的審查希望包含它過去的這個一些職災的紀錄或治安的相關但是還有一個問題"},{"start":4971.651,"end":4994.514,"text":"我們看近3年平均及格最低標準所辦理的件數卻是非常的低你看2021年占所有標案的1.6而已2022年占所有標案的1.4那2023年也是占所有標案的1.4左右那執行的成效不好那當然"},{"start":4995.438,"end":5019.307,"text":"他的這樣一個評分及可最低標的執行他有他的困境第一個就是說政府單位對於這個模式還不是很熟悉那還有就是大家所面臨最大的困境還是在於國際趨勢缺工缺料的這個因素政府單位擔心招標困難不去使用你認為有什麼改進的機制嗎"},{"start":5021.546,"end":5040.856,"text":"謝謝委員 我想那個評分及格最低標的決 決標的方式 那麼事實上還有有利標啦 所以目前採用有利標的可能會比較多啦 所以乍看之下 這個最低標的決標方式比較少"},{"start":5042.436,"end":5061.785,"text":"關於這個缺工缺料或是缺能源等等導致這個機關他比較保守會採用比較能夠決標的方式我想藍磷招標的這樣的因素很多除了缺工之外當然整個希望能夠提出"},{"start":5062.005,"end":5062.025,"text":"陳珠緯"},{"start":5096.193,"end":5102.76,"text":"現在請徐富肯委員發言謝謝主席有請我們陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":5113.07,"end":5129.938,"text":"主委,我想最近在立法院一直有提到一個所謂環島高鐵的一個議題我相信過去主委也針對我們宜蘭的高鐵的部分都有一些的討論跟一些的看法"},{"start":5132.859,"end":5149.85,"text":"這個體要達成環島的一個目標沒有先到宜蘭北到宜蘭南部沒有先經過屏東我想也不可能走到東部目前我想我們在2019年我們知道蘇貞昌前院長已經核定了這個高鐵南沿屏東的案子"},{"start":5150.45,"end":5172.137,"text":"那在我們陳建仁前院長在2022年也針對高鐵的特定訊號也做了一些的核定包含我們科學園區的一個計畫我請問針對這個高鐵南延屏東這一塊諸位在是一個行政團隊一個立場上面有沒有什麼樣的方式可以來協助我們高鐵進化的南延來屏東謝謝徐委員那這兩個高鐵延伸線"},{"start":5179.009,"end":5207.105,"text":"一覽高鐵他是路線是已經有確定可行性研究算通過那麼他在進行二階環評當中那將來會審查這個綜合規劃那延伸屏東的部分目前路線是未定路線未定那麼速度應該比一覽這一部分稍微慢了一點那估計希望能夠在"},{"start":5208.905,"end":5234.296,"text":"一百一十八年 二零二九年要完一百一十八年來合 合定合定合定是主委這部分我們還是希望能夠能夠協助交通部來儘快處理那另外針對我想我們屏東縣這個因為我們市比較難包那以往常常碰到我們一些重大工程容易因為發包因為工程延宕的問題"},{"start":5235.416,"end":5255.807,"text":"造成這個預算這個處理上的一些問題那尤其我們現在我們貴會新任我們的李一德副主委也是我們以前屏東縣政府的同仁他非常了解屏東的工程的困境那目前針對這部分我想我2月份的時候也曾經請教過我們吳前主委要如何未來要如何協助我們屏東的工程的發包把這個工程量還有發包的"},{"start":5261.61,"end":5269.904,"text":"的一個處理上面能夠協助我們非六都的一個縣市能夠來做一個完善的處理所以請主委來說明我們工程會的角色"},{"start":5277.36,"end":5291.754,"text":"謝謝徐委員的指教關於委員所提的屏東的相關工程他的發包或招標或預算等等若干問題我想會後我們請同仁通案那麼來研究那麼來協調"},{"start":5293.885,"end":5322.698,"text":"好,主委這要特別請你到三天了因為畢竟我們也是希望我們所有的工程好不容易要到經費能夠讓工程能夠順利的發包順利的一天順利來完工那另外我們除了工程這個屏東的工程淫浪之後我想包含我們現在目前很多的公務機關還有民間的一些工程都碰到工程缺工的問題那之前一直有提到所謂印度移工要來彌補這個勞力缺口的這個"},{"start":5329.482,"end":5344.791,"text":"國家中大建設尤其是公共工程那麼他的移工的引進當然主管機關是勞動部不過針對個案那麼他如果這個有請求希望移工的話那麼工程會會協助來"},{"start":5347.072,"end":5366.628,"text":"來做這個抱怨來協助能夠解決合定之後勞動部當然就可以來配合這個個案來引進移工至於是否印度移工我想勞動部會做整體的考量所以主委是贊成這個透過外籍勞工的部分來彌補我們的缺口"},{"start":5367.472,"end":5372.379,"text":"另外我再請教針對內政部曾經發布一個新聞稿呼籲我們的建築業者不要以碳費徵收的理由來哄抬房價"},{"start":5382.432,"end":5402.483,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":5403.83,"end":5423.54,"text":"謝謝委員,據我所了解,碳費的開徵還在研議,原本計畫是從明年度後年開始來申報徵收對象大概是比較大戶,排放大戶,比方說電力業者、石化業者、燃煤或燃油"},{"start":5424.74,"end":5452.122,"text":"這些大戶來初步做做這個碳灰的徵收不過這一部分因為整個政策國外會還在研究當中至於銀監的應該不是列為第一波這個徵收碳灰的對象不過因為在生產過程當中比如說像若干材料會因為他本身就是被徵收的碳灰的大戶那這些公司他是不是透過"},{"start":5453.704,"end":5467.837,"text":"檢排或者是探交易的方式來降低他的探這個排探或者是去購買探權等等他有很多種方式那這部分我想國會會整體的考量"},{"start":5469.142,"end":5493.3,"text":"主委那最後一個問題我想請教就是因為課徵碳稅除了一個這個問題之外還有一個就是我們要了解說一個碳排放的一個過程那目前我們工程會有協助重大工程進行所謂一個碳盤查的一個作為但是大家這樣想我們都要想辦法那目前我們國內的這個技術還不夠成熟那工程會那這部分是不是有原因要怎麼樣來降低成本"},{"start":5495.013,"end":5512.271,"text":"謝謝委員那麼報載的這部分我還在瞭解當中那麼這個還不是確定的執行的還沒做執行的確定我會進一步來瞭解那麼做相關的討論跟調整之後會後再跟委員報告"},{"start":5513.608,"end":5534.285,"text":"謝謝主委,我想主委也是新官上任,那面對未來我們新內閣跟這個立法院的這個互動關係,你會比較辛苦的啦,我想工程會也肩負我們行政部門很重要的一個部會的一個角色,尤其我們未來很多的一些重大建設跟工程會都息息相關,我想請主委及團隊,大家作為來拍邊,謝謝。"},{"start":5539.403,"end":5560.008,"text":"徐屋奎委員發言完畢現在請盧明哲委員先做以下的宣告本日委員由委員提出臨時提案依照本會王力在登記質詢本會委員發言告於段落後處理那我們將與蔡吉昌委員巡打完畢之後隨即處理臨時提案現在請盧明哲委員發言"},{"start":5566.84,"end":5571.744,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們工程會我們陳主委陳主委好這個其實第一次在工作上見面那當然我對你個人來講也許你也不太認識我但我也跟你不太熟悉啦但對一個工作表現在這個位置表現我們當然是對你有很多的一個期待"},{"start":5593.36,"end":5605.49,"text":"我們看到我們事實上工作人會我們組織條例第一條第二條其實開宗明義的規定未來你最主要的帶領這個團隊主要的工作對所有的公共工程從規劃審議協調督導"},{"start":5608.993,"end":5610.314,"text":"﹚公共工程委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5631.808,"end":5656.947,"text":"這個公共工程的爭議我覺得實在是真的量體是非常非常的大而且複雜性複雜性有時候協調了五次八次不見得有結果所以你希望能夠提升調解事件的處理效率跟減少契約很多人至於契約嘛那你對於這個工作你大概已經能夠過去的經驗都了解還是要花點時間才能夠上手"},{"start":5660.28,"end":5684.335,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想這個禮樂爭議那麼它除了申訴啦或者是申請調解或者是仲裁還有民事訴訟那麼公共工程委員會的這個禮樂爭議的協調我們希望調解所以希望能夠在調解當中就達成那如果調解當中達成就免去這個做訴訟的這樣的一個很冗長的過程"},{"start":5686.789,"end":5702.623,"text":"那調解的過程希望他時間來說短那目前因為調解因為公共工程委員畢竟還是中央機關所以他對一個調解建立的提出啊那過程也必須保持一定的嚴謹跟有所依據"},{"start":5703.564,"end":5727.043,"text":"所以目前調解的整個時間是很長沒有錯大概都將近一年以上八個月以上那這裡面有一些程序上的問題還有人力不足的問題我們正在做檢討那我們希望第一個達到調解的時間縮短比方說半年內能夠提出這個調解建議那麼再來就是說"},{"start":5728.024,"end":5746.416,"text":"我們希望呢 那麼調解出來的建議啊假以雙方能夠迅速能夠接受那麼再者就尋求民間仲裁那這樣子的話整個里約爭議的解決不會拖拖到305年我當然希望這個期待是更有效率的大家都說人對的事情就對了"},{"start":5747.456,"end":5770.823,"text":"我們在工程會工作量這麼大而且非常的專業我們希望不光是新的政府團隊希望你在這個工作崗位上是問題解決者不是麻煩製造者我也覺得人到底對不對我對你的第一項當然來自報章媒體但是我對你未來的表現是從今天開始"},{"start":5772.183,"end":5798.04,"text":"我們知道在報章雜誌我們看到我們不希望你是一個travel maker我們是希望你是一個問題解決者但是有些問題我要釐清報章媒體看到你的過去你的歷練其實算是非常的豐富但是產生了一個爭議我也覺得是蠻精彩的但是觀看事件的本身我覺得那是一件事那到底發生的原因是什麼我也不見得了解"},{"start":5798.92,"end":5824.141,"text":"可是我要去看你發生了一個爭議事件所有的民意代表所有的政府機關所有的企業界當發生了一件假設負面的一個事件的時候90%的單位都想辦法減輕這個問題想辦法誠懇說明可是我看到你這幾件事我覺得你是一個很有趣的人你是當發生了負面的一些問題爭議的時候你會啟動"},{"start":5827.103,"end":5846.779,"text":"自動擴大模式 這不簡單自爆加碼模式我覺得哇 這不簡單耶因為一半都會躲起來喔躲一個月 新聞媒體不追就算了你可以在三天以內 自動把這個洞挖大我覺得怎麼會這樣的這個個性 我是覺得非常非常有趣我們看到在2017年2017年"},{"start":5849.401,"end":5873.416,"text":"中郵董事長當時815大停電事件 過程大家都知道就不講了 結果因為你離開了董事長的位置 結果你在兩天之後 你上電視節目說自己加入民進黨30年了 我老鳥了 這種政治鬥爭的林北看多了"},{"start":5875.013,"end":5903.864,"text":"其實我看到這個對我來講反對的你們家是紀律到可是我這句很奇怪齁你能不能做一個主管的時候當你員工的處長你要調動他因為他裡面一些事情的時候你的處長或你的科長你的組長他說董事這個主委我加入工程會20年了啦這種內部的人事生天動罪鬥爭你被看多了哎喲"},{"start":5905.222,"end":5908.124,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5924.153,"end":5940.294,"text":"通過彈劾啦這個坦白講監察案彈劾應該算一般民間算是蠻慎重嚴重就認錯就算了可是你怎麼回答勒你怎麼回答我覺得你這回答不好我希望你變了一個人啦你的回答是說"},{"start":5941.255,"end":5960.497,"text":"考試院調查兼職人員情況全台類似情況有一千多人又不是我陳金德藝人為什麼只針對我藝人提督產核這個監委的針對性昭然若揭因為你要做一個公務人員如果你是個人我根本不跟你講這一條個人可以隨便講的"},{"start":5962.279,"end":5982.799,"text":"因為你要帶領全國的工程單位你在事前你很多的法規規約人家都以你做一個指標事中的一個爭議然後事後要怎麼處理我真的好怕你知道嗎好怕你在處理一個爭議的時候用另外一個廠商來講林北跟你講"},{"start":5983.86,"end":5995.584,"text":"全台向我類似工程遇到這樣問題的有一千多件你為什麼主委針對我一人我不知道你怎麼回答我又看到你代理宜蘭縣縣長"},{"start":5998.134,"end":6004.38,"text":"時間沒有很長我覺得這個是真的很離譜剛剛是你說個性的問題我就是這樣我不服輸這個問題你對法規的見解對法規的預測已經跟民進黨執政的中央的農委會已經完全不一樣了甚至從今天來看一個農地它是糧田你本來的建築物蓋在中間因為現在早就變成機具在耕作的時來時往"},{"start":6024.838,"end":6041.383,"text":"本來就是要臨旁邊 你在那邊當時說的話真的很可怕欸 你說 豪華農舍蓋在林北的田中央啦 我的沃土是人民的自由啦陳金仲當時怎麼跟你回答 農舍蓋在中央一定影響農業環境"},{"start":6045.392,"end":6066.021,"text":"這種種的一個爭議包括後面違建處理這個部分我不知道你還是不是當時說這些話的陳金德如果是的話我不知道你怎麼在這個團體因為你覺得違法違規對你來講你的想法你可以很容易去挑戰可是行政院公共工程委員會尤其前主委"},{"start":6067.081,"end":6082.532,"text":"吳主委一切說一算一一切依法規定我是不是建議我看到這些是不是讓你回應一下過去這些到底有沒有改變對於依法行政你對自己有沒有信心"},{"start":6084.619,"end":6106.388,"text":"雖然時間已經超過一分多鐘但是陳志偉還是必須對盧委員的提問來做出說明也給你時間做說明謝謝盧委員的提點的確是個人在處理做幹問題上面有所需要檢討的地方我個人也這10年來也深刻在檢討"},{"start":6108.086,"end":6132.794,"text":"那關於依法行政我們的心目中只有依法行政這條路公務人員必須依法行政針對人民的權利義務相關問題所以宜蘭的龍舍我就是依法行政以上根如委員報告好那也因為時間的關係謝謝盧明哲委員的發言那現在請蔡其昌委員發言"},{"start":6144.12,"end":6169.377,"text":"主席請陳主委請陳主委蔡委員早主委早今天就叫主委這幾年因為原物料上漲人力短缺的問題所以我看檢像發包的問題是越來越嚴重"},{"start":6173.615,"end":6193.709,"text":"那以本席臺中來講我看這個新聞報導也報導了嘛原物料上漲市府檢向發包成為常態那這個臺北市啊這個漁果市場啊這個前科市長檢向發包也在議會裡面也被批評"},{"start":6195.114,"end":6214.891,"text":"那檢象發報本席一直覺得如果我們面臨的是原物料波動的當年度也就是說我們已經預算編列好了但是今年這一整年當中原物料大漲但是原物料大漲一定在一個期間內就簡單講說原物料"},{"start":6217.93,"end":6246.823,"text":"的波動在一年的時間內漲幅到一個滿足的程度接著他就進入了盤整的狀態他不會連續好幾年他都是一路這個噴出啊原物料上漲不可能嘛可是呢我發現這個減項發包啊並不是在原物料噴漲的那一年那一個時間點出現預算年度出現問題而是現在看起來就是越來越嚴重"},{"start":6248.595,"end":6268.691,"text":"本席長期在幫忙孩子爭取教育相關的設施從校舍、禮堂、操場等等本席為我們台中的孩子在爭取這些事情那我以台中市政府來舉例就好看這個檢像發包的問題有多嚴重"},{"start":6271.636,"end":6298.986,"text":"早期我們面對檢像發包啊 廠廠是什麼是整個建築物的主結構完全蓋好那檢什麼 檢裡面的客桌椅也就是說 整個環境要蓋幾樓都蓋好了那裡面這個學生用的客桌椅啦 這個可移動式的這些擺件最後我們再來爭取相關內部設備"},{"start":6301.735,"end":6322.258,"text":"那現在呢已經改什麼沒有這樣改本席最近去看了一個工程那個我們大甲國中的那個也是我們去爭取大甲國中的案子很簡單大甲國中的案子呢他是一個原來的手球的手球館可是呢政府現在已經沒有手球館所以政府就學校裡面叫活動中心"},{"start":6323.052,"end":6341.994,"text":"台中市政府依規定活動中心多少學生活動中心的面積就是多大所以呢市政府的教育局他就編列給你這個活動中心的預算可是要蓋手原來學生在大甲國中手球隊非常有名是我們手球的這個這個搖籃"},{"start":6344.276,"end":6370.811,"text":"結果呢他這個空間就太小他必須要在既有市政府補助的活動中心的範圍把它擴大才能打手球所以呢我們就協調體育署哇這個公文往往來來往往再加上協調會不必整年啦這好不容易跟手球館跟活動中心透過中央體育署國教署台中市教育局合而為一"},{"start":6371.687,"end":6390.985,"text":"好了本市搞了一年認為這件事已經處理完結果臺中市政府發包他發包完之後學校又來陳情了為什麼因為他只發包活動中心的主結構只有起碼什麼叫起碼譬如說沒門發包項目裡面沒門"},{"start":6400.402,"end":6415.583,"text":"我只好把體育署、國教署、臺中市教育局再找來協調,說現在起地要好了,沒問題怎麼辦?體育署就回答本席說,報告委員,我們體育署只補助體育設施,沒有再補助門的。"},{"start":6419.233,"end":6438.067,"text":"沒有那麼多保門嘛 所以我們去足球館的時候 去手球館的時候如果一開始發包的時候 那有可能手球館沒門 所以放在手球館這個建築興建的時候門沒問題啦但是你先把村內的地方蓋好 現在要來建出門 他說門不是體育設施"},{"start":6442.285,"end":6471.296,"text":"我不是罵體育署啦我只是在講說體育署沒有錯啊他在以他的預算科目來講這時候你只要做問這哪有體育設施但是他是手球館啊所以呢本時只好再請教育部潘部長出面來協調說好那這間市政府你要出多少中央的體育署跟國教署你要分別出多少啊這條集在預算科目裡面想可以出我只是舉這個例子給主委聽啦這個就是減相發包的結果"},{"start":6473.047,"end":6487.12,"text":"臺中市政府的檢像發包我看這個市議會講已經變成了常態啦好我再講一個順天那是什麼現在的活動中心也可以檢像發包到什麼程度市面圍牆蓋起來沒有屋頂這樣也可以發包就是"},{"start":6492.762,"end":6508.572,"text":"突然先把圍牆 這也是本席去偷的 去中央政策部部長 台中市政府 連有市面牆壁蓋了 發包出去 校長來跟我說 委員拜託第二天來政策處定 這樣也可以檢証發包 後來空一條就行了 我要做什麼 我就先把那條先空起來 台北市也是這樣被市議會批評啊"},{"start":6523.035,"end":6552.75,"text":"他把樓層要蓋八樓的其中減項八包減掉幾項之後樓層讓他下降這是定案嗎?不是定案未來蓋好之後他可能要再蓋起來你不能不讓他蓋啊在監督上面就會有問題啦就是說以後呢他先把一根柱子蓋好了你不給他補柱你不給他補柱他就變成蚊子管嘛變成蚊子柱子"},{"start":6553.507,"end":6556.669,"text":"主委本席也做了一個臨時提案希望工程會好好地來管理你的看法呢"},{"start":6585.055,"end":6598.649,"text":"謝謝蔡委員的確是原物料的調整有物調的機制那也可以透過計畫修正的方式來解決那麼比較不鼓勵透過檢像發包來處理"},{"start":6601.252,"end":6628.202,"text":"那檢象發包機關他仍然有核定者有核定的需要核定決定這樣檢象發包的機制那如果這檢象發包把你原來的功能已經不在了那個已經是要透過修正計畫採取而不是檢象了所以我們非常佩服蔡委員的這個高見那我們會全力來改善這樣的一個整個在其他機關發包過程中所產生的問題"},{"start":6629.102,"end":6657.201,"text":"OK 主要要慣例啦 這沒慣例不知道 這個亂象重生啦 這個已經到發包運用到這個程度 那以後縣市首長可不可以在卸任之前他就把所有重大工程都發包出去 然後每一樣都剪相發包 反正下一任不是他嘛 他就叫後一任出來負責就好了 他每天都去 都自己發包出去 你如果後輩沒得接 他就說你看你很無能 我就已經起碰了 你後一任的市長你看我無能"},{"start":6658.208,"end":6659.929,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6673.817,"end":6689.543,"text":"很多事情沒有辦法啦因為你隨著不一定是不一定是原物料上漲也不一定是這個這個缺工的問題他可能面臨檢像發包本期不是說檢像發包但是檢像發包不可以像台灣現在已經腐爛氾濫到這個程度"},{"start":6691.184,"end":6705.674,"text":"所以我希望工程會能夠好好的來管理跟監督一下所有中央政府跟地方政府的工程謝謝蔡委員發言完畢我們現在要先處理臨時提案本日既有一案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":6709.396,"end":6737.652,"text":"臨時提案一愈來愈多機關以剪相發包的方式辦理工程採購但卻常剪掉主要功能鑒於剪相發包嚴重影響工程品質非常太的追加預算一身弊端且更造成公共建設延擋原此建請公共工程委員會應將剪相發包納入列管瞭解各機關剪相發包原因並提供因應對策避免剪相發包情況過於腐爛提案人委員蔡其昌等宣讀完畢"},{"start":6738.212,"end":6763.811,"text":"先請工程會做說明謝謝委員提案的指正工程會建議把倒數第三行將檢像發包納入列管逗點這幾個字刪除建議的理由是因為在實務執行上招標機關有採購效率還有採購決定等等但是工程會一定會去了解各機關發包檢像的原因還有提供因應對稱"},{"start":6765.591,"end":6791.3,"text":"那個主席不要列管可以啦但是就是說要盤點就是說應檢向將公共工程委員會將檢向發包進行全面盤點然後瞭解各機關檢發包的原因這樣你這懂我意思嗎盤點你想不想也要盤點不然問你本來是要問讀到本來要問主委看到底全台灣現在檢向發包各縣市政府的比例啦但是我想應該不知道啦"},{"start":6792.851,"end":6820.472,"text":"所以我主動沒問他但是我有一次就要問啊所以你要先盤點出來啊是好不好因為主委先上任嘛本是總是要客氣一點對吧所以這一題先不問但是你要先盤點好那依照蔡委員的文字修訂有沒有問題報告沒有好那我們就照蔡委員的修正來修正通過"},{"start":6822.426,"end":6848.658,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢．如果委員對上述提案補簽．列入記錄並刊登公報繼續請何欣淳委員發言在何欣淳委員發言之前先做一下宣告我們在許智傑委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘好謝謝今天主席李坤哲召委我們請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":6856.025,"end":6875.981,"text":"何委員長主委好首先先恭喜但是這個公共工程委員會看起來不大不小但是很重要責任很大比如說剛剛蔡其山委員要您去盤點各地方政府的這個公共工程的檢像發包的一個狀況這個卻看起來是小事好像也不管重要事但是卻是"},{"start":6881.806,"end":6881.966,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":6902.131,"end":6915.45,"text":"所以在前一任吳主委的時候我就諮詢過他他也承諾他立場堅定態度說公共工程要淨零碳排這是一定要做的世界趨勢台灣要跟得上主委你認為呢"},{"start":6917.778,"end":6935.77,"text":"謝謝委員指教的確是近年排放是我們國家2050要達成的目標那這個2050要達成的目標各界相關碳排的措施都要做那公共工程站的碳排大概初步的資料將近9%至10%之多"},{"start":6939.552,"end":6955.032,"text":"所以當然要盡各種努力在所有的環節來進行淨零那主委我特別提到為什麼公共工程委員會剛剛一開始說說大不大說小不小但很重要因為如果我們要做公共工程的淨零碳排那公共工程很多的是"},{"start":6957.173,"end":6981.099,"text":"養旺我們的這個公共工程委員會呢是不是能夠就大大小小中央地方的各項的公共工程如果我們帶頭進行碳排要減碳那你要給予什麼樣的一個一個政策目標第二個我們的工具指引工具再來呢我們相關的法規制度如何能夠呢帶領大大小小的中央地方的各項公共工程進行減碳"},{"start":6982.179,"end":7002.53,"text":"所以我接下來就要問因為上一次吳主委跟我說有我們要做而且我們要帶頭做所以相關的有關鋼筋水泥業者打頭陣公共工程檢探新規明年上路這個是當時候在媒體上吳主委的任內裡面所發布的"},{"start":7004.691,"end":7023.195,"text":"所以我是要讓新任的我們陳主委知道鋼筋水泥業者打頭陣公共工程檢探新規明年要上路那我現在今年上路了我要跟主委說是什麼今年上路了很抱歉叫做什麼業者自我宣告"},{"start":7025.123,"end":7043.431,"text":"這第一個你們認為的新規第二個是說我公共工程有一個叫做精子獎所以我有把這個低碳減碳納入這個加分的項目如果你這個分數得得好的話得得高的話那你可以得到這個公共工程精子獎那我就要凸顯兩個問題主委如果我們要帶頭做如果沒有規範那如何能夠逐步做得到"},{"start":7051.428,"end":7069.702,"text":"因為呢第一個這個叫做業者自我宣告等於沒有強制性也沒有時程表所謂的時程表就是說每一個階段該做到什麼樣的程度那引領產業界引領了我們各項的大大小小的公共工程他的業者呢"},{"start":7070.402,"end":7098.874,"text":"不管是這個從設計規劃到後來施工我們該如何的根據公共工程委員會的指引逐步的推動分階段的進階的來落實第一個我們現在叫做業者的自我宣告沒有強制性沒有時程沒有任何階段的一個指引公布這第一個第二個金資獎加分項目你說這個叫加分啊他如果有做好吧這個我勉強說他是鼓勵措施好了"},{"start":7099.844,"end":7125.903,"text":"但是呢這個鼓勵措施裡面在這個加分項目裡面那客觀的評鑑基準又是什麼因為就我所知你們金子講的這個所謂的這個評審評鑑都是依據你們的專家學者啊專家學者每一次來看的到底他的這個客觀的評鑑基準OK不OK我們公共工程有沒有給予指引或者相關的一個基準"},{"start":7128.41,"end":7141.244,"text":"沒有看到下面的在搖頭搖手了有沒有沒有不是喔好那請主委好好去了解一下細節喔好我就分這兩項那今我要跟主委講規範"},{"start":7144.099,"end":7165.436,"text":"前一任的吳主委說這是我上一次的質詢喔前一任的吳主委說好我們的未來要推動強制性的公共工程採購的碳排要規劃要制度化那未來朝向要強制化可是主委你知道嗎現在這是你的最大挑戰了"},{"start":7169.386,"end":7182.873,"text":"因為本來吳主委跟我講這件事情要吳鳳接軌給你但是我相信你一點都不知道吳主委說要你現在回去問一下你所有公共工程委員會的幕僚到底有沒有電子絕標系統要新增一個檢探欄位到底有沒有現在沒有現在沒有那呢"},{"start":7197.537,"end":7213.999,"text":"當時候答應我的吳主委現在走人了業副主任委員哲良也走人了那陳書偉那你在你任上這個公共工程的採購的要納入碳排的這樣子的一個規劃到底要不要"},{"start":7217.585,"end":7218.066,"text":"謝謝委員指教"},{"start":7247.966,"end":7249.307,"text":"公共工程委員會"},{"start":7262.481,"end":7276.523,"text":"是不是有做到撿牌的設計或撿牌的若干或者是說吸收碳的這樣的能夠更進一步淨零的這樣的工法或者是作為在基本設計的時候是可以把關的"},{"start":7277.585,"end":7301.837,"text":"是主委我現在就要跟你探討這件事情你有講出這樣子的一個概念很好表示你支持但是問題是公共工程委員會到目前為止我沒有看到一個完整的一個規劃從初級終極到進階哪一個階段階段性的第一個要達到什麼樣的目標第二個我們階段性的法規制度的設計或者是如何推動產業"},{"start":7303.755,"end":7324.088,"text":"若使在各項的大大小小的公共工程裡面我們公共委員會的態度跟現在進行規劃的進度在哪裡第一個我看不到第三個我們的目標既然我們國家已經宣誓了但公共工程委員會有沒有短中長期的一個建立我現在跟你講喔雖然我時間不夠了你剛剛講到碳排資料庫碳排資料庫你們到目前為止跟我講5月中事辦你知道嗎"},{"start":7333.595,"end":7348.936,"text":"到現在也許我也不能苛責你但是只有4家登錄而且你們這個資料庫說6月要上路你們現在是說業者自動來登錄就好結果到目前為止只有4家"},{"start":7350.282,"end":7350.422,"text":"好謝謝好 主委"},{"start":7380.52,"end":7383.322,"text":"現在請許智傑委員發言許委員發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":7419.467,"end":7447.239,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請主委 請陳主委委員長 主委好老朋友記名 那個漁師是老朋友 漁工還是要要求那個之前齁 那個跟主委報告 之前有我們一直在做的事 我想這個是我一直追蹤蠻重要的事 所以要讓主委知道一下"},{"start":7448.817,"end":7476.05,"text":"那就是近年來我們在推動最有利標這個方向不要用低價搶標去破壞那個品質那最有利標呢我想每個人穿衣服啦買房子啦都是用自己的最有利標嘛所以對我們工程來講應該也是用最有利標最好那之前我一直要求工程會就是最有利標的時候"},{"start":7477.456,"end":7497.025,"text":"如果真的有一些爭議或有一些疑慮或有一些擔心就把政風跟主計麻煩他們辛苦一點跟我們一起來那一來呢我們很清楚我們趕緊政風主計來就是心裡沒有問題二來呢如果你真的沒有問題政風跟主計來也是保護你的一個好的方式"},{"start":7498.138,"end":7520.797,"text":"所以最近這幾年來我們工程會在工部門的招標正風跟阻劑加入的比例其實都有逐漸在增加那當然穩定了之後如果會減少一點點也無所謂啦那我的意思就是說正風跟阻劑他不是我們的敵人他是保護我們的"},{"start":7521.998,"end":7545.887,"text":"所以這個部分如果工程會繼續來推你可以看到主委我這個數據你可以參考這是這幾年來決票的件數其實都在增加當中去年有一點減少是因為最低本來是10萬10萬變成15萬所以這個在數量上有少一點事實上也是增加的那我們看它的比例也一直在每一年歷年都在增加當中"},{"start":7546.847,"end":7556.921,"text":"所以也就是說我們推動國家這個重大的政策做有力標那加入政府跟主席的協助我們的確讓公共工程的品質可以更好"},{"start":7558.175,"end":7582.841,"text":"所以這個部分讓主委瞭解一下我是希望說特別跟您提醒這個從以前吳宏謀主委的時候我就在推到後來的吳哲成主委那我是覺得這幾年來看起來有成效出來所以我會繼續在追蹤也希望說主委這個政策讓您有個瞭解那也希望說我們工程會的同仁這個好的政策能夠繼續推動下去"},{"start":7583.941,"end":7608.193,"text":"不用怕鄭豐跟祖記啦鄭豐祖記是我們的好朋友他可以幫我們很多忙好那第二件事情就是之前在缺工的方面呢我們一直在講說那個我們其實台灣有很多年輕人體力能力都夠但是他可能不太喜歡去當"},{"start":7609.875,"end":7622.418,"text":"做這個比較粗工沒有辦法在市場那麼漂亮所以他們有答應說比較不要去做比如說你在工地做那個幫忙或是拔鐵的有可能一工差不多兩千至三千一工可以賺七萬至九萬但是他們去餐廳做服務業有可能賺兩萬多"},{"start":7639.008,"end":7655.207,"text":"但現在年輕人去感恩去賺兩萬他可能要叫他去做這個他不愛做所以呢在之前我不知道現在主委可以關心一下你們內部有沒有做這樣子的規劃因為在之前我也要求過就是說我們工程會每年都有金子獎的頒獎嘛"},{"start":7656.688,"end":7680.283,"text":"有一些項目的改變有更好的點子我們可以再加入評審的項目所以我之前在前主委的時代我也跟他們要求說是不是有可能我們來鼓勵讓他做這個基礎工業基礎的營造工人事實上讓他增加他的榮譽感我們來給他頒獎比如說他做了訂房模訂了很好的我們找一個職人精神我們來給他頒獎叫做最佳藍模"},{"start":7686.742,"end":7687.765,"text":"阿比說他白天還在外面打電話在這個領域很突出我們就給他頒獎叫最佳藍鐵"},{"start":7695.322,"end":7723.248,"text":"這樣 其實 給這個基礎的 無關是正宗沒的 白天的 休餐的 還有這種基礎的考慮 我們鼓勵年輕人出來 讓他們有一致之常 讓他們有職人精神 讓他們有一個容易感這樣 其實有可能在我們缺工的問題 可以幫我們解決一些 那這個部分 我不知道 我們有沒有人可以簡單的報告目前工程會進度到哪裡"},{"start":7724.817,"end":7752.076,"text":"謝謝委員指教關於工班職人獎納入這個工程金職獎的部分已經在實施了會整個會我們把整個金職獎的頒授會整體的再來考量來修正除了這個工班職人獎之外包括整個職安在施工過程的職安也都會納入考量這個是已經在"},{"start":7752.656,"end":7779.141,"text":"我是特地跟主委報告希望能夠再把它規劃得更好把這個職人精神把我們基礎的缺工的問題其實可以多少做一些改善那第三個呢其實昨天我在聽國民黨在提到他們對那個工程國家都很有意見那現在我們工程會來協助做工程國家會目前的狀況主委不知道有沒有了解"},{"start":7780.734,"end":7796.031,"text":"就是各個領域的工程國家對那國家做的方向是如何?這一部分給委員報告因為如果說到外國去承攬其他國家的工程就組國家隊去承攬"},{"start":7798.928,"end":7813.003,"text":"外國的標的事實上都是金額非常龐大目前我們說能夠組國家隊去承攬的成果事實上還是不多不過這個工程會"},{"start":7814.184,"end":7839.838,"text":"已經有在努力包括在各地駐點然後尋求商機或其他的這個資訊提供給國內的相關的產商主委這個時間不多我再跟主委強調一下我會繼續追蹤的項目前面兩項之後這一項我會繼續追蹤那你可以看到我們以前的計畫就是說今年度合訂九件拓展計畫補助大概一千多萬其實算是很少"},{"start":7840.939,"end":7861.034,"text":"那當然就是說我看那個在野黨他們在批評我們所有的國家隊的角度都覺得說你是圖利用那個角度其實看是非常的不好那對我們國家隊的推動其實是不利的那我舉這個例子讓主委參考就是說在文化部當時我在教委會的時候有建議文化部可以成立一個文策院"},{"start":7862.271,"end":7869.676,"text":"他是一個投資性質,不只是補助性質。比如說我文化部我準備兩百億去補助電影、電視、節目等等的安排。我補下去後呢,我去選好賣選,選選的呢,因為就錢一直補出去,你補到好補到壞,到最後都不用付錢,因為他就是補嘛。"},{"start":7883.394,"end":7899.759,"text":"這叫精神評審制嘛 評審制又沒有一個方向不是說沒有一個方向 他們所謂的評審的標準嘛但是補出去他就一直越補越少 後來我給他們一個概念參考就是說你用投資的概念不只是補助的概念我這報出來之後 我感覺說這組電視它有可能會嘆息"},{"start":7903.24,"end":7931.022,"text":"我補多少給你補阿其他要看要怎麼分配阿至少我這個基金200億基金我搞不好補了5年之後我變成300億也不一定我可以補助更多幫助更多的欸這個要拍電影阿那用這個概念說如果我們的國家隊也有這個概念我是先這樣子提出來請主委跟我們部門部會底下的人再做一下去研商阿我這不是只有補助而已阿補助你不會說你質疑說我圖利阿我沒圖利阿我"},{"start":7931.522,"end":7932.923,"text":"徐委員發言完畢 我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8633.104,"end":8647.423,"text":"繼續開會現在請邱若驊委員發言主席好主席有請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":8655.849,"end":8677.575,"text":"委員長主委好主委我們首先來看到就是面臨物料上漲缺工缺料已經影響到工程公共工程的流標那也因為預算不足的關係還有按量集中那近年來流標的情形影響到了工程進度那這個問題也不是這幾年才有的那前主委"},{"start":8678.895,"end":8687.043,"text":"吳哲成主委也就有表示過這是必須要去面對的問題那在交接以及部長您上任之後有沒有提出具體的解決辦法"},{"start":8690.883,"end":8709.998,"text":"我想這個缺工缺大問題工程會一直在協助相關的機關辦理公共工程那吳主委任內有很多的規劃跟政策也非常的具體跟有效所以基本上會循著過去所做的這樣子來協助各機關來做"},{"start":8711.059,"end":8726.183,"text":"所以目前的做法是沿用那像一些民間的專家學者都有想到一些辦法像是針對缺工就有提出就是研究工法的改變那還有引入自動化的設備那為什麼我們政府沒有提出其他相關的因應辦法"},{"start":8729.901,"end":8758.204,"text":"自動化社會當然也鼓勵各機關或各相關單位去設計啦那麼營建業或者是相關的研究機關那這方面應該是比較專業啦我們鼓勵當然鼓勵透過自動化來減少這個人工嘛那不過缺工的問題另外一個機制就是引進移工啦那工程會會協助這個辦理機關啦向行政院來請求來核定"},{"start":8759.085,"end":8769.18,"text":"那這個專案來核定移工那跟勞動部來合作那勞動部基本上審查之後會同意增加移工的部分"},{"start":8769.79,"end":8796.432,"text":"OK好那本席是來自桃園的委員那目前我們地方有很多重大的工程都在推動中那民眾期盼的地方發展還有所需要的交通建設如果政府不能提出缺工缺料的方案讓工程如期如值的完工那承受的是民眾每天都在承受不方便那在這邊那主委您知道如果交通工程不能順利完成會衝擊到哪些嗎衝擊到哪些產業的發展嗎"},{"start":8800.868,"end":8815.736,"text":"交通工程最主要是這個人的這個能夠到達這個目的地的這個時間嘛那我想對金融企業就是我們討論目前有一個逃逐苗大矽谷計畫"},{"start":8818.206,"end":8839.216,"text":"主委您知道這個計劃嗎?桃树苗大細股計劃大概相關產業的聚落產業的聚落那這邊我跟主委說明那觀光物流科技汽車還有農產品的運銷運銷都會衝擊到都會影響到所以請主委還有我們公共工程會要重視這個問題"},{"start":8841.55,"end":8867.973,"text":"那在工程會的報告第7也有提到歸納流標的原因還有提出因應的作為那也宣稱近年近年兩次內的招標率有提升可是立法院去年10月有提出113預算評估報告指出這兩年為決標的工程採購案件流標流廢標的情形是递增的主委有掌握到這個情形嗎"},{"start":8870.541,"end":8871.025,"text":"相關主幹來說明"},{"start":8874.864,"end":8875.104,"text":"OK 好"},{"start":8905.078,"end":8920.027,"text":"主委工程會是31個部會中唯一的標記尚未改組的單位那歷年公共工程金費約7000億元主委能維護工程會必須具備極高專業還有統合能力以及完善的採購流程嗎我想這個關於"},{"start":8927.834,"end":8951.448,"text":"工程會的任務在工程會組織條例裡面已經相當清楚了對各部會可以協調相關列管的公共工程我想我很珍惜我這個工作我會跟我的團隊全力來達成法規所賦予的責任跟全力來完成相關的公共建設"},{"start":8953.809,"end":8978.242,"text":"是因為最重要的功能是要依公平還有公開的政府採購程序那採購的效率還有功能以確保採購的品質我要以今年4月為例公共工程委員會這邊有被踢爆的警問背心瑕疵的採購案警政組雖然有解釋招標程序都符合規定但是採購品質不佳是事實恐怕會造成危害員警的安全那工程會這邊有沒有去檢討過去的採購法還有流程"},{"start":8981.701,"end":9009.433,"text":"各位我請相關主管來說明跟委員報告有關於防彈衣的採購這個部分那因為委員去年之前有指導所以我們有發文給那個防彈衣的採購機關從源頭的招決標的策略還有旅業管理包括要用樣本的方式去做確認旅業品質這些等等我們有一套機制給各機關去處理"},{"start":9011.107,"end":9038.412,"text":"那有沒有檢討招標審核過程中有問題呢?報告這個就是我們因為原來是用最低標所以我們建議他用最有利標然後讓他選好的廠商那這後續的責任還有歸屬怎麼去做審核跟檢討?後續的責任因為這個是招標機關和招標機關的上級他們會去檢討他們的責任那我們主要是避免以後再發生這種事情"},{"start":9038.933,"end":9038.973,"text":"請陳主委"},{"start":9074.25,"end":9100.513,"text":"委員長主委長主委你是立院的前輩也是台大的學長但是在這裡還是要特別針對工程會相關業務的事情因為那時候我領之後大家也忙所以我們還沒有碰過面那也都知道你們過去的許多豐富的經歷那我先延續著剛才秋洛華委員所提到的主改的部分因為這是一個核心的問題"},{"start":9101.454,"end":9120.335,"text":"因為工程會尚未主改,工程會面臨的主改第一次是2010年的組織法修法。行政院明定組織架構是14部8會1院,兩種出山獨立機關合計29部會,不再設置工程會。原本的工程會被拆分移撥到財政部國發會以及原本要成立的交通建設部。"},{"start":9120.996,"end":9149.739,"text":"第二次是2018年賴清德擔任行政院長期間先確定工程會業務不拆分又將工程會業務全數併入國發會那最近一次提出是蘇貞昌任內人事行政總署研議成立行政院公共工程總署為行政院專業工程幕僚機關不必再修裝組織基準法那要先救教主委賴清德總統曾提出的併入國發會或蘇貞昌前院長提出的行政院公共工程總署您認同哪一個"},{"start":9151.919,"end":9177.553,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那麼我想工程會的主改問題是政策決定的那麼我個人擔任這個職務所以目前我沒有對這幾個案並沒有個人的看法也沒有評論好就是對於該金德總統所提出的或是蘇貞昌院長所提的這就就是被動接受大概就不予評論嘛"},{"start":9179.312,"end":9197.945,"text":"好那沒關係那我再接著就叫主委因為您的經歷是非常豐富啊擔任過宜蘭縣的代理縣長高雄市副市長還有國營事業的中油董事長那所以因為這些原因啊你找了兩位副手那這些副手的資歷也都非常的非常的豐富那"},{"start":9198.826,"end":9223.977,"text":"好這個部分一個是高雄市政府的時候任職的禮儀的副主委嘛現在副主另外一位是這個簡介中可以看到他是擅長於土地開發相關工作也擔任過國營事業國營企業的台南董事另外一位是陳維祥也擔任過法服的秘書長也做過中游的董事大家都跟主委關係非常的密切那想要直接請教主委對於這兩位"},{"start":9225.818,"end":9254.501,"text":"復首公共工程委員會中的角色的定義那到底他們的定義跟幫助是什麼?謝謝委員因為公共工程委員會的主管法律包括政府採購法、技師法或者是公共公司條例這當中涉及的法律是非常多尤其是禮約爭議政府的契約或者是禮約爭議的處理那麼工程會需要一個具有法律背景的"},{"start":9255.442,"end":9278.323,"text":"副主委來統合相關的問題好那謝謝主委因為我已經早就預期你會提到履約爭議那但是陳偉祥副主委他過去的專業上並不是政府採購法而是在於他這些法府或狠性法律事務所所負責的都是刑事民事那跟行政法較無相關那這個部分要怎麼樣重分讓社會各界幸福"},{"start":9279.993,"end":9287.418,"text":"陳律師陳副主委他的法學專研相當有基礎我對他有信心"},{"start":9289.791,"end":9312.24,"text":"今天先不用讓副主委來回應因為今天才剛開始但我直接就接著就講因為我們期待副主委後面的表現那至於說同樣法界出身那負責公共工程履約爭議協調上次黃國昌委員有爆料有提到的有一位王靖堯律師那現在主委打算怎麼處置因為他那時候在"},{"start":9313.66,"end":9331.195,"text":"這個所謂的王建豪律師在福報公使乍領國防部法律意見費用那在國防部復驗的時候說像陳班仁囂張嗆聲說這個國防部的陳班仁是第一個敢判定他驗收不合格而他也認識很多的大哥阿他也查過陳班仁的底阿"},{"start":9331.795,"end":9358.429,"text":"那就這樣子的一個律師現在還在公共工程委員會的採購申訴審議委員會當委員那想請問一下那主委目前對於這樣子的人士之前要說處理那現在處理的進度會怎麼樣謝謝委員那麼跟委員報告那麼工程會已經先暫停王晉堯委員他關於這個採購申訴委員會他的任務了那麼也含情公安部說明相關案情"},{"start":9361.374,"end":9386.696,"text":"好 那就暫停 那暫停之後後面的處置勒 就是暫停就好嗎因為那個委員會暫停就不派發任務嘛 那麼他就不會接觸到相關政府採購的理由爭議他的申訴跟調解相關的業務我還是本期還是在這裡表示就是說 如果今天來講他在對一個國防部的承辦人也是用這樣子嗆聲恐嚇的方式而只是做一個暫停"},{"start":9387.236,"end":9388.277,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9403.129,"end":9422.423,"text":"主委您的過去的這經歷也是非常豐富的所以說其實有時候啊黨外的朋友有時候比黨內的還要好有時候黨內的還是有很多的一些訊息都會流通來流通去那所以就有人跟我提到就是因為你那時候擔任全國的信賴之友會秘書長"},{"start":9423.604,"end":9444.325,"text":"那這個秘書長在團隊的位置來講這個也是非常的重要但是這個秘書長的這種角色啊有時候像後援會某某之友會那他其實他的角色就是一個募款的角色那所以說這時候就會接觸到許多企業的金主啊還有各地的這個就是包括捐款給"},{"start":9445.146,"end":9456.414,"text":"包括賴清德總統的這些企業但是現在你的角色擔任的是這個公共工程委員會主委你要如何來讓公共工程委員會的未來的標案都能夠至清跟避嫌"},{"start":9460.696,"end":9481.153,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想我的工作一定是依法行政何況公共工程會並沒有辦理政府採購我們是政府採購法的主管機關並沒有直接辦理政府採購沒關係那因為您是一個重要的一個橋樑但是沒關係這個後面看您的表情都是可以被"},{"start":9481.834,"end":9484.877,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9505.069,"end":9505.449,"text":"李博弈委員發言"},{"start":9536.253,"end":9559.976,"text":"謝謝 我們請陳主委請陳主委喝一口水的時間而已 辛苦了陳主委我跟你是舊式從你到高雄市政府任職的第一天其實那時候我就跟你認識那對你在環保以及政府部門相關的這些經驗跟這些做事的方式先給予佩服"},{"start":9560.851,"end":9575.23,"text":"那也感謝你在這一次願意回到公部門我想在民間單位在獨立董事自由自在那可以揮灑你的空間願意回來我想為新政府做事先給予你肯定"},{"start":9576.471,"end":9604.986,"text":"我們也瞭解民間的這些獨立董事以及民間的這些單位其實藉助你過去的長才來這些地方發揮人家也是要生活所以願意回來工部門再回來這個火坑跟廚房先給予你肯定我想這些包含這些民間部門的這些釐清當然都會清清楚楚從你就職這一天開始這個我都沒有任何一點的質疑"},{"start":9605.586,"end":9631.813,"text":"那對於公共工程我想倒是有非常重要的事情想要救教主委的態度公共工程委員會其實指導所有公共工程的業主可能包含水利署可能包含國土署可能包含駐都中心可能包含捷運局可能包含國防部真的太多了但是這些業主其實也有苦難言"},{"start":9633.629,"end":9660.027,"text":"我說有苦難言就是說我講大的這些好了我等一下講小的再請我們現在的新任的副主委上來問大的這些國土署這些從疫情的時候其實很多工程飆不出去當時的公共工程委員會其實有針對這些飆不出去的這些工程其實有做出要補貼但是有沒有落實"},{"start":9661.463,"end":9688.283,"text":"所有的這些業主所有的我們的政府單位都有聽到這個樓梯的聲音但是說沒看到人啊沒看到人的原因是什麼就是我們的上級指導單位我們的公共工程委員會對於具體落實的到底這個業主到底水利署或者是到底這個國土署到底住宿中心你這一個你這一個工程已經發包兩次三次出不去的時候"},{"start":9690.354,"end":9715.616,"text":"我們公共工程委員會要拿什麼樣的政策來指導這些業主來這個問題我相信主委一定瞭解所以有沒有相關的大的方向要來說明一下首先感謝委員在102年2月初吧我剛到高雄的第一天你不要把日期講出來我會嚇到"},{"start":9717.136,"end":9730.385,"text":"是你到接音站去接我的非常謝謝這是一個很美好的回憶那關於工程會的角色當然針對行政院列管的公共工程有指導跟協調的這樣的一個"},{"start":9733.006,"end":9759.331,"text":"工作的權利跟義務那針對一些工程不管是已經發包了在執行中發包不出去的你知道兩次到三次的過程在做什麼都是我們的業主在拜託過去有做過的這些營造單位你來做不完都用嘴巴講事實上會不會損失這個沒有人知道"},{"start":9760.72,"end":9786.833,"text":"所以如果說能夠協助機關在辦理發報的時候如果有需要再修正計畫增加預算那工程會角色是可以協助的我覺得工程會可以主動就是針對可能兩次以上沒有發報出去你們檢討出原因之後那工程會有跟工程會有過討論之後就可以趕快讓他們有個有一個課程就趕快來處理來我請那個"},{"start":9790.074,"end":9813.262,"text":"副主委新任副主委李一德副主委時間先暫停一下謝謝剩1分鐘而已主委你先請回座副主委你上一個工作是來自屏東的這個城鄉處嘛城鄉處有很多小型的工程可能"},{"start":9814.281,"end":9836.858,"text":"不到一億可能五千萬到一億的工程你就找不到承包商了你可能就要留標三次以上那所以說在您擔任現在擔任這個副主委的同時站在一個縣市政府主管的立場縣市政府必須要推動的公共工程的立場來講的話公共工程委員會可以做什麼樣的指導"},{"start":9838.39,"end":9854.447,"text":"好謝謝委員垂詢那我想這個發報上面來講當然地方政府主辦機關他有他自己的一些調整的一些措施主辦機關一定就是這樣嘛我的預算只有這樣啊那我要增加或者我要怎樣那公共工程委員會可以給予什麼樣的主導"},{"start":9854.687,"end":9870.592,"text":"工程會部分來當然現在已既有機制他們會做一些主動去針對那種流標兩次以上的案件來去主動去關心協助他們然後開無數次的這種協調會協助他們做針對那種流標的原因去提針對每一種樣態提出一些因應的這些做法"},{"start":9871.292,"end":9892.637,"text":"那以我們工程會目前的資料來講其實也會透過一些不定期的訪查來去了解那這個流標兩次以上的案件其實兩次招標兩次絕標的案件其實過去這一兩年其實也逐步在提升那我們持續來繼續努力謝謝委員好謝謝李博義委員發言完畢現在請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":9901.792,"end":9901.912,"text":"請陳主委"},{"start":9919.691,"end":9944.796,"text":"委員長主委早這個事情不是在您任內發生的但我相信新政府上台我們很多政務的推動都有延續性之前我在交通委員會的時候曾經請教過上次的工程會的主委五日主委針對我下面所要請教的這個案子有一定的經過我今天先讓主委瞭解狀況就是說"},{"start":9947.276,"end":9975.847,"text":"拿納稅的錢去辦政府採購的標案只要合法合不合理那是納稅人心中的一把尺但如果說特定的媒體人特別是擁護執政黨的媒體人拿到標案的金額跟數量已經不成比例的過高的時候作為立法委員這個是要站在納稅人的立場來加以監督的好"},{"start":9977.321,"end":9986.843,"text":"那針對啊周玉蔻他名下的公司五年內取得政府的標案一千三百萬我之前有請公共工程委員會向各個"},{"start":9989.045,"end":10010.806,"text":"招標的政府取得相關的合約、驗收跟檢案報告在調取資料的過程當中基本上都還蠻順利的因為我們不能夠說只看標案不看內容就說裡面有問題嘛我們一定要實事求是看裡面的內容但有一個地方特別奇怪"},{"start":10012.062,"end":10037.019,"text":"就是高雄市政府高雄市政府從2月的時候公共工程委員會幫忙向各個機關說去其他所有的地方政府都交了就是高雄市政府不交3月7號的時候工程會發文給高雄市政府吹腳5月16號的時候再發文給高雄市政府吹腳"},{"start":10038.098,"end":10059.512,"text":"那個時候我問前主委吳哲成吳主委這到底發生了怎麼回事怎麼其他的地方都調得到就是高雄市政府他不會給那這三個標案的內容這個不是我捏造出來的在網路上面可以看到招標得標基本上面的須知"},{"start":10060.793,"end":10073.726,"text":"吳主委說他會去溝通那你們在業務交接的時候吳主委有沒有告訴你說現在溝通到什麼地方了跟委員報告我個人一直沒有跟吳主委做任何"},{"start":10074.844,"end":10099.396,"text":"的交接不過這個案子會內曾經有做說明關於委員需要的資料那工程會都會按照委員會的指示去函這個透過發函的方式讓各機關瞭解委員需要的資料至於這個高雄市政府相關機關的部分我會進一步再來瞭解"},{"start":10099.898,"end":10124.531,"text":"是不是可以拜託一下啦因為陳主委你之前也在高雄市政府任職過嘛應該跟陳其邁市長也是熟識嘛我們現在這不是在談個人關係的問題啊我們公事公辦嘛從2月開始要喔要到現在5月要結束了都還要不到還需要多久的時間主委你可以去溝通一下嗎"},{"start":10127.008,"end":10153.885,"text":"跟委員報告那麼我會後會瞭解整個相關狀況那麼做若干的處理若高雄市政府不給那就回一個公文不給嘛上面就寫不給的理由嘛要了這麼久也不回應其他機關都給了只有高雄市政府不給會讓人覺得很奇怪啊那裡面是有什麼貓膩嗎要了三個月都不給可以這樣嗎"},{"start":10156.192,"end":10162.134,"text":"主委您去了解需要多久的時間?我的問題是您需要多久時間?還要再三個月嗎?這個沒有辦法來"},{"start":10183.123,"end":10205.787,"text":"來跟你報告說多少時間我們竟在法律授權之內那麼透過我們工程會相關的這個雖然齁是地方政府的標案但為什麼跟工程會有關係這有牽涉到中央的法規啊我為什麼這樣講因為給綜藝課的那些標案啊我一個一個去調調完了我實事求是啊台電有問題了我在經濟委員會我已經問過了"},{"start":10210.129,"end":10232.149,"text":"我調出來屏東縣政府有問題的裡面針對屏東縣政府網路行銷的合作案來看一下內容內容是潘孟安以41.6的支持度大幅領先對手這個是在行銷屏東縣政府還是在行銷潘孟安啊可以拿納稅的錢"},{"start":10234.144,"end":10254.19,"text":"去買媒體選舉的時候幫自己宣傳自己的支持度大幅領先對手政府的標準是拿來做這種事嗎我上次問吳哲成主委的時候啊他表情很凝重啊說這種事情不應該發生吳主委講得很好"},{"start":10255.643,"end":10284.358,"text":"因為他知道他的職責公共工程委員會這種事情就要把關執行政府的法令嘛為什麼我說要去執行政府的法令還不是只有潘孟安欸包括你們現在的副主委李一德那個時候任職屏東縣政府的時候一樣啊當行政首長個人擦肢抹粉納稅人的錢可以這樣花喔那為什麼敢說這樣的話來看一下"},{"start":10285.936,"end":10302.877,"text":"有一個重要的法規政府機關政策文宣規劃執行注意事項辦理政策宣導不得以下列方式自律性行銷方式進行採購媒體的時候可以做首長自我宣傳嗎來看一下請出位"},{"start":10308.875,"end":10331.328,"text":"我想針對個案我們正在工程會的立場大概是針對政府採購是否符合政府採購法的規定那麼他履約的過程有沒有按照契約來執行那委員關心的 這個不是契約這個是我們中央政府所頒布的行政命令這個不是契約這是法規"},{"start":10336.158,"end":10362.256,"text":"如果各個政府在辦標案的時候把中央政府所頒布的法規當成空氣啊你說不行我照幹我照幹也不會有任何法律效果那這樣中央政府的法規要如何的實踐這是我的問題啊主委你覺得當地方政府無視中央的法規"},{"start":10363.922,"end":10370.647,"text":"用納稅的錢還執意這樣去幹的時候這個時候中央政府應該要採取什麼樣的立場跟作為"},{"start":10373.206,"end":10399.16,"text":"來請主委簡單的說明包括我們現在已經走過兩分半鐘所以這個主管機關跟工程會沒有關係我們站在這個機關不宜去在這裡不宜去解釋其他機關的法規啦那相關機關他有上級機關我想我們誠懇的跟幫委報告你要許的資料我們會透過協商那麼依法在法律規定之內那麼請高雄市政府來"},{"start":10399.54,"end":10401.021,"text":"謝謝黃委員發言完畢也請黃委員多保重我們現在請侯孟楷委員發言"},{"start":10428.737,"end":10445.535,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳金德主委請陳主委來主委我剛剛很訝異黃國昌委員的質詢我一定要再確認一下您剛剛有特別提到是說您跟前任主委沒有交接"},{"start":10447.193,"end":10474.44,"text":"是當然有交接聯合交接嘛聯合交接當天是這個業務上有沒有交接業務當然會聽取各單位的報告這個也是交接我講的是人跟人在聯合交接典禮當天是副主委來交接是那個是硬性的交接啦但是說你們自己沒有坐下來面對面來講是說他的業務怎麼樣然後來去做經驗的分享這個沒有"},{"start":10475.953,"end":10492.924,"text":"找機會來跟吳主委來請教就是之後才會有啦好啦我想為什麼會這樣講因為你突然講出這句話沒有交接我下一條我想說如果這樣的話真的是政府部門這個螺絲鬆到一個極點啦因為馬上我上網去查2016年"},{"start":10494.785,"end":10520.718,"text":"5月那個時候馬政府跟蔡政府的交接是各部會都有交接甚至行政院公共工程委員會520交接的簡報檔都可以在網路上找到43頁那如果說現任主委突然講說沒有交接那我覺得會讓大家覺得很匪夷所思所以給你機會來做澄清啦是剛才那個個案剛才那件政策不過我們關心的議題還是要關心"},{"start":10522.884,"end":10546.02,"text":"主委今天的這個報告我特別都有看過但是過去這幾年重大公共工程大家面臨到不管是民間企業或是公共工程企業公共工程最重要是缺工缺料的問題缺工缺料的問題在你的報告裡面好像沒有特別提到說要怎麼解決主委你有什麼想法"},{"start":10547.52,"end":10559.866,"text":"跟主委跟委員報告我想缺工缺料的方式問題我們工程會啊持續跟相關機關啊或者是承攬單位一直都在協助處理一直在處理"},{"start":10561.365,"end":10585.15,"text":"怎麼處理我請主管來跟你說明不是啊陳主委之前吳哲陳主委的時候本席也一直請教他這個問題因為這不是一個個案這是通案過去這幾年我相信如果說你有確實的交接的話你們業務單位應該都有跟你報告重大國家重大公共工程過去幾年流標四次五次六次七次比比皆是"},{"start":10586.175,"end":10609.141,"text":"那為什麼?就是因為有缺工缺料的問題第一時間我們要講是說到底相關的這個投標金額有沒有到符合這樣子的一個業界的一個需求那還有即便是缺料物源物料上漲但是工人的部分能夠怎麼樣的補足所以留標幾次的這個工程非常的多"},{"start":10610.131,"end":10634.522,"text":"那本席的轄區裡面不管是淡北聯外道路不管是林口交流道雖然現在招標出去但過去也有留標了七次六次而延宕的時間那所以說這不是一個個案問題這是通案問題本席為什麼突然特別提到就是因為你整本報告裡面沒有提沒有講到這樣的一個部分我特別看了一下 主委"},{"start":10635.495,"end":10639.89,"text":"我覺得這個是應該要由公共工程委員會主委特別去重視的問題您同意嗎?"},{"start":10642.285,"end":10669.819,"text":"我們當然相當重視所以針對若干個案有缺工也會協調行政院來提高專案移工的引進缺的問題據我所了解針對南部沙石的採售也協調相關辦理輸進的機關跟業者讓售價格一致讓這個沙石的供應不是斷料那麼工程會一直很認真在協調這些事情"},{"start":10671.849,"end":10697.944,"text":"各位本席希望真的是要做實事把這個民間所關係的問題給放在心裡第二個部分我覺得要跟你就教一下說這個橋樑的安全我特別有看到一下你在報告的第8頁抽查公共建築有效使用狀況那預計會來做定時的一個抽查那以及在抽查橋樑維護管理情形"},{"start":10699.13,"end":10724.513,"text":"今年抽查8件特殊的橋樑維護管理但我們全國到目前為止總共橋樑是3萬多座那你在這個部分我們身為一個中央主管機關一年抽查8件符合比例原則嗎能不能確保全國的這個橋樑的一個安全我請主管來說明"},{"start":10727.509,"end":10752.848,"text":"向委員報告現在目前全國的橋樑有兩萬五千余座那其實在整個這個委管的一個機制部分行政院定有這個這個橋樑管理要點那主管部會分別有交通部內政部都有各自的一個部分那工程會也會在這個年度呢也會另外再增加一些抽查所以原本就已經既有的機制下"},{"start":10753.168,"end":10757.934,"text":"原本抽查8件嘛,你第8頁的報告是8件那你還要再增加"},{"start":10759.222,"end":10783.507,"text":"還是8件已經是增加8件就是8件是那原有全國不管是我之前媒體的資料講說全國有3萬多座橋樑或是你剛講2萬5千多座橋樑我當然知道各地方主管機關有一些是內政部主管有一些是消防部主管我當然了解啊啊但是重點就在於是說過去南方澳的這個大橋斷裂的時候不也是這樣嗎"},{"start":10784.887,"end":10808.835,"text":"大家就解釋說那是地方政府主管的所以說就沒有人去管理那他就突然斷裂了所以才要抽查機制為什麼要抽查機制他就是一個盤點他就是一個再確認當全國兩萬五千多座或三萬座橋樑在的時候我們公共工程委員會他能夠做一個及時的盤點那我只想問一年如果說只有八件的橋樑抽查"},{"start":10810.165,"end":10818.412,"text":"那我們怎麼有辦法確保各地方政府主管機關不管是交通部管內政部他們所維護的橋樑都是安全的"},{"start":10819.81,"end":10845.277,"text":"委員報告那麼多橋樑分屬不同主管機關那麼也有維護單位那麼這些機關還有上級機關他們就持續在按照他們的計畫在抽查當中所以並非全國2萬多個橋樑只抽查8件不是那工程會本來工程會的職責那麼在施工中或者是說使用中那工程會會抽樣是進比方說比較重要的危牢的去抽查"},{"start":10845.797,"end":10865.463,"text":"所以整個抽查各機關各部會都在進行中並不是只有罷兼好主委這樣回覆我姑且信之請主委是不是能夠在一個禮拜裡面提供本席整理相關的資料交通部內政部相關部會他們今年的抽查狀況"},{"start":10868.076,"end":10881.365,"text":"我們會請這個工程會跟交通部來協調請交通部提供資料好那就一個禮拜裡面提供可以嗎好謝謝好主委一個禮拜裡面提供可以嗎一個禮拜裡面提供"},{"start":10883.427,"end":10884.488,"text":"謝謝侯孟楷委員的發言"},{"start":10903.755,"end":10926.582,"text":"謝謝相關的橋樑交通部都有相關的定期檢測跟特別檢測橋樑的安全級數也有分別有ABCD相關的這些級數這些交通部都有相關的資料請公共工程委員會在一週之內將相關的資料向侯孟凱委員來做報告現在請陳雪生召委來做發言"},{"start":10932.061,"end":10935.122,"text":"首先要謝謝主委以前在中遊的時候"},{"start":10961.578,"end":10962.539,"text":"行政院工程會在過去的這些時間"},{"start":10989.966,"end":11018.135,"text":"我們馬祖離島偏鄉只要在颱風、災害、災損的部分工程會都是在第一時間派處長級以上的官員那麽列立馬祖給縣政府協助有一些東西優先可以處理的馬上立即處理所以我也對工程會的同仁也表示感謝那最近也有一些事情主要就是缺工缺料"},{"start":11019.241,"end":11024.884,"text":"臺灣目前缺工,勞動部有沒有引進一批移工進來?勞動部啊?您知道嗎?針對整體的還是個案?針對全國的"},{"start":11044.909,"end":11072.034,"text":"他全國有引進一批勞工嗎?對,勞動部會針對比如說哪一個案,那麼他的業主會提出需求指的是某一些特定的專業的對,他提出需求,然後經行政院核定之後他專案,然後再來引進這個很像是勞動部那邊主管那我是拜託主委就是說有機會的時候因為台灣本島就已經缺工缺料了"},{"start":11074.96,"end":11097.92,"text":"那在金門馬祖澎湖更缺工缺料,所以很多的工程都標不出去,沒有人標啊。為什麼?他沒有兵力嘛,沒有人力嘛。再加上因為航程比較遠,很多的原材物料從台灣運過去,那很多原材物料鋼鐵等等在台灣已經就不夠用了。"},{"start":11098.71,"end":11124.879,"text":"在台灣已經不夠用了所以運到金門馬阿祖去做這些工程相對的困難取得材料非常的困難那最近也是前瞻計畫的一個工程的高峰期大家都在搶工人所以台灣已經不夠用了再去馬阿祖把馬阿祖這些以前的老工人"},{"start":11125.956,"end":11149.03,"text":"再給他請回臺灣來那更顯得馬祖勞動力的不足所以請主委正視這樣一個問題好不好我想早上很多的委員都已經詢問這方面的事情另外因為缺工而衍生出來很多合約的爭議那麼"},{"start":11153.51,"end":11177.277,"text":"工程會有訂定一個採購契約的範本第七條第三款第一幕但裡面有規定非可規則於廠商的情形當然這一些是可以延長工期的那也有一些非"},{"start":11180.655,"end":11187.902,"text":"規則於廠商的情形,廠商要檢據相當的證明文件才給予展現。"},{"start":11190.373,"end":11210.269,"text":"我拜託主委是不是能夠找一個行政院工程會對金門馬祖地區比較有基礎的看看找相關的官員能夠到馬祖去做這一方面的一個調處因為行政院工程會是全國最高的工程解釋機關"},{"start":11211.806,"end":11233.213,"text":"你們的調處應該是相當具有公信力。那麼如果有發生類似廠商跟工部門之間的合約契約,有產生類似的問題,是不是請工程會能夠幫忙在這一個部分來調處,是不是請主委回答我。"},{"start":11234.413,"end":11243.638,"text":"謝謝委員那麼禮約爭議在進入禮約的不管是申訴或者是調解之前還有一個禮約的諮詢"},{"start":11246.485,"end":11273.319,"text":"有諮詢委員會可以諮詢所以我們非常會請工程會就法規跟工程的專業主管那麼會配合委員的時間到馬祖去就用諮詢的角度來解釋這個禮約的這樣的一個法規或應該做的決定就是說非正式的調解希望能夠達成雙方對合約有共同的認識"},{"start":11274.696,"end":11299.12,"text":"是的,我想主委你派人到馬祖去,不是說只是跟縣政府的工程部門去接觸,跟營造商工會,營造商工會也去聽聽他們內心的感受還有他們的需求,除了工部門之外營造業工會也去拜訪一下,主委這一點你可以做得到嗎?可以"},{"start":11300.661,"end":11316.379,"text":"謝謝主委也恭喜你好不好老同事希望你再接再厲馬祖第一有什麼事情再幫我們忙好不好好謝謝您好謝謝陳雪生召委發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":11325.902,"end":11332,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們要請這個工程會主委陳金德主委請陳主委"},{"start":11338.029,"end":11340.991,"text":"臺北捷運也好桃園捷運也好這個每一個捷運的新建的過程裡面都遇到"},{"start":11363.007,"end":11381.081,"text":"多次的流標那甚至季節延伸站歷經了14次流標好那才慢慢的這個終於有就標出去那桃園也是一樣和五度的流標要延到2013年才能通車好那為什麼會特別提這個呢因為我想臺中現在也正在努力的想要來推動捷運臺中目前只有一條綠線捷運"},{"start":11382.762,"end":11400.873,"text":"那藍線剛通過這個綜合規劃那綠線也正在準備送那還有橘線等等的台中也很多條捷運我想要就教於我們主委是說未來這個台中捷運如果也是這樣多條線的動工那工程會員有沒有什麼樣的策略跟方式能夠來避免流票進行發生"},{"start":11402.635,"end":11416.513,"text":"會不會因為再次多次流標那本來現階段講說10年內能通車會不會因為流標拖到20年我都已經不知道幾歲的時候才通車主委你對這個問題有沒有想要解決方案我請主管來說明"},{"start":11419.639,"end":11441.337,"text":"跟委員報告一下有關捷運工程確實這幾年各縣市都積極的在辦理捷運工程所以捷運工程的這個保核量我們一直有在掌握有在分析那也希望說可以透過一些適度的分包那在預算跟工期上面要做更妥適的一個安排那這些流標原因我們都有做一些整理跟做注意事項通知給各個機關也會來持續來做一個宣導"},{"start":11443.535,"end":11471.808,"text":"這個預算跟工期的確就在預期的答覆裡面我們就整理一下當然每次工程流標的原因當然事後檢討一定是預算不足那工期不實都會有這些原因出現那還有包含說設計疏突企業不合理這都是過去很多次的流標案件裡面我們看到的這些檢討的報告都有這些項目我要問的是說這個新官上任我想要提的問題說是不是工程會在前期的階段因為我想任何的地方政府建設要通過之前"},{"start":11472.168,"end":11491.85,"text":"一定都會來報到院那各單位一起來來看這案子合不合理我想問說工程會有沒有機會在這個階段就能夠先出手而不是等到事後已經確定沒救了再來說因為你們當初預算變得不足工期不實社會術不合理在前期階段有沒有機會先介入主委"},{"start":11493.306,"end":11522.852,"text":"謝謝委員我想工程會針對一定規模以上的這個公建案在他的可行性研究或是綜合規劃的時候會參與審查那等到合定之後他的基本設計那是工程會主審所以當工程會主審這個基本設計的時候就會了解那麼他的相關的問題包括減碳包括預算的概估等等所以這部分工程會在這個階段那麼就有著墨的"},{"start":11523.012,"end":11523.772,"text":"﹚提供相關的意見﹚"},{"start":11545.239,"end":11561.796,"text":"我當然知道前期有很多單位會參與那我想問的是說工程會有沒有可能因為其實你看在預算不足工期的問題因為只要預算不足導致因為現在其實最核心的當然缺工缺料啦在缺工缺料這件事情上工程會有沒有機會去協調包含說勞動部或其他部會"},{"start":11562.697,"end":11588.106,"text":"他們一起來面對這個缺工的問題因為你如果缺工問題沒有解決的話後續這個預算不足供給不實它還是會持續發生因為其實預算不足跟供給不實某種程度上這兩件事情是互為因果啦你如果人就是不夠蓋的就是慢那後續又這個物價上漲上來你預算當然不足嘛所以想先問說工程會在這個事情上面的角色有沒有機會去協調勞動部去解決這個缺工的問題"},{"start":11591.369,"end":11612.045,"text":"謝謝委員整個營建或相關的工件案的缺工那工程會的角色是可以針對這個個案他的不管是機關或者是說相關業者他提出需求的時候工程會是受行政院委託來審查這個需求是否合理尤其是超出"},{"start":11613.265,"end":11640.679,"text":"勞動部他的一些引進移工的比例的時候那我們可以專案來核定所以工程會在這個各個案缺移工的部分是可以扮演也算積極的角色來協助這個缺工問題不過這個已經是標出去了在進行中那至於整體缺工的部分我們想我們會找機會跟勞動部共同來了解或是相關機關來了解整體是不是有整體的"},{"start":11641.879,"end":11664.175,"text":"這個引進的法規或者是必要好主委謝謝也是有具體答覆了其實這個的確這個如果開工之後缺工我也感謝這工程會去來幫忙爭取那除了民間的這個勞工之外其實工部門其實也是有一個相關的問題我以我們這交通委員會自己內部的這個幾個單位來講說有些像鐵道局他們在這個"},{"start":11666.536,"end":11694.437,"text":"報紙上有刊載就多就是這個缺額土木土木直系的這缺額多年這幾年下來大概有時候高達兩成三成或是開出的缺來填報人甚至沒有因爲當然這跟薪資有關係因爲公部門的薪資比不上業界因爲最近這幾年房地產很興盛所以業界的薪水比工程還工程面比公部門還高那面對公部門連這相關土木直系都會缺工的情況下面工程會有沒有什麼解決的這個方案出來"},{"start":11696.246,"end":11696.907,"text":"請同仁回答演繹當中演繹多久了"},{"start":11726.049,"end":11747.376,"text":"這個是從去年下半年有開始在討論預計什麼時候會有這個解決的方案出來跟委員報告有關這個預計解決的方案這個部分因為涉及到整個就是土木直系人員的這個待遇調整這個部分我們必須要再跟主管機關人事行政總署再確認"},{"start":11748.732,"end":11774.651,"text":"好,因為這個土木直系的公務人員我想他的就業風險他的工作環境其實講白了他的風險也蠻高的不管他的工作環境還是他的這個法律問題我覺得土木直系的確是公務人員裡面相對比較辛苦的所以這部分除了民間缺工之外我也希望說工程會要注意到這個連工部門自己的專業人才也在缺工那這想對未來的公共安全或對於工程設計也都會有影響那最後一個最後一個問題就是說這個"},{"start":11776.252,"end":11799.251,"text":"工程會這邊既然我們都知道缺工缺料那後面預算還有物價不斷上漲我們希望未來在審核的時候包含不管是中央政府也好或地方政府也好都能夠保留一筆預算來面對說工期延宕也好或是物價上漲也好它帶來的這個經費增加的部分是能夠先預留的而不是說因為你看有時候工程一延宕延個五年一個十年"},{"start":11800.252,"end":11824.507,"text":"當初的物價算的時候的物價跟那時候的物價一定不一樣嘛所以這物價的調整在預算裡面是不是能夠有機會先保留起來主委跟委員報告我想有些重大規模的公共設施他預算諮詢預算本來就是分年度有整額所以在比方說下年度或次年度他是有機會再來調整的"},{"start":11827.978,"end":11839.486,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員發言完畢現在請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在現在請王美惠委員發言這是大家主任委員"},{"start":11854.465,"end":11854.747,"text":"來請陳主委"},{"start":11861.471,"end":11883.987,"text":"委員長 主委你好 真高興在這個地方與你相約在主委你也是擔任行政院政府委員 再來最重要的你就是會監督我們交通部的 再來在這裡面公共工程就是要看我們的目的"},{"start":11885.319,"end":11911.096,"text":"起雅樂嗎?在這裏面我相信主委也知道我來自嘉義市嘉義市現在建設最大條的現在做的就是鐵路高架鐵路高架是面臨的就是我們差不多中間3年疫情的問題所以欠缸"},{"start":11912.694,"end":11919.818,"text":"每件事都會出現．所以主委本身是要請教說．假如說我們還沒發報．還沒發報或是沒有很久發報．兩三天之後．我們會去調那個金錢嘛．"},{"start":11931.155,"end":11935.158,"text":"要不然已經發報已經做了要不然中央也決定補助地方的錢如果這樣回到這都無法抗拒的什麼人願意發生這個疫情這麼嚴重要不然好好知道台灣很團結我們的政府也有作為可以"},{"start":11959.025,"end":11967.769,"text":"在三天後平平安安大家繼續向前走所以本席要來問這個問題存在是要如何去處理以您專業的是不是可以提供意見給本席來請主委講一下"},{"start":11982.643,"end":11998.441,"text":"謝謝委員我初步了解在執行中的建設那因為大概預算顯然不夠是因為物價或人力薪資的問題我想是否可以"},{"start":12000.863,"end":12015.509,"text":"主管機關主辦機關來請求改變計畫那這個改變計畫當然會涉及到工期阿或者是預算阿如果能獲得核定那當然就會解決這樣的問題我初步想因為還沒有還沒有說這個"},{"start":12018.13,"end":12019.45,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":12042.113,"end":12056.062,"text":"我們已經發佈了,像說我們北省去建商買一間房子在這個,譬如這樣說一千萬在這個規定當中,我也已經簽約了,錢也付給他但這個3年當中,疫情,每年每天都去所以說這樣說,我說用一個簡單的推算說,這間房子"},{"start":12072.745,"end":12098.941,"text":"該負擔三百萬的本錢這三百萬是不是我們要更多去負責還是必須跟他簽約之後必須要負責這三百萬來主委若像這樣邏輯你若想一個是民法的問題對我知道或者我請陳副主委來好來"},{"start":12105.758,"end":12120.55,"text":"謝謝委員那這個剛剛主委已經有提到他能夠用物價指數調整就用物價指數調整但是牽涉到合約嘛那如果說當時訂的這個物價指數調整這個比例不足"},{"start":12121.31,"end":12148.096,"text":"可能會進入到下一個階段那麼就必須由法院介入說這個有沒有達到一個情勢變更重大變更因為這個牽涉到改變整個合約的結構這個通常是屬於司法權的部分這部分就是說行政權比較沒辦法所以我們現在的想法是說你在訂合約的時候或者說你當時在訂招標條件的時候這個物價指數的條件"},{"start":12149.036,"end":12151.297,"text":"我現在簡單跟你說主委你齁拜 用拜託的啦你去了解第二次現在鐵路高架他已經分配款已經確定了 但是現在沒有主規的欠工欠什麼的錢還要賺最緊要再交易 是要如何給自己的負擔 不可以這麼久啦"},{"start":12174.129,"end":12200.836,"text":"議員負擔這檔案及企業中央不用負責、地方來負責．我估計這有一點不利．同時主委這件事我們多研議一下．不是說還沒發報．發報以後回到的問題更加嚴重．主委這件事及你的鐵路高架．會企業以後地方要負擔的錢"},{"start":12203.271,"end":12219.138,"text":"好 來謝謝王美惠委員發言完畢現在請羅志強委員羅志強委員羅志強委員不在現在請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在現在請邱志偉委員"},{"start":12220.138,"end":12247.137,"text":"邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在現在請林儲英委員林儲英委員林儲英委員不在現在請林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員不在現在請王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在現在請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在現在請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在"},{"start":12247.777,"end":12270.927,"text":"現在請中嘉賓委員、中嘉賓委員、中嘉賓委員不在登記質詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢討完畢委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請工程會儘速以書面答覆本日議程處理完畢。散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}