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嘛是 委員好以前是農糧署的署長國內這個農糧跟公糧應該是重重競爬啦是所以我今天利用這個時間你今天剛好來因為立法院這個第一會期就通過了這個公糧收購所以我們今天要調高五塊錢嘛大家都很努力這個第一個是立法院通過的第二個經過跟行政院長行政院的這個協商"},{"start":52.563,"end":76.98,"text":"那部長 包括部長都有說要這個完整的配套要好好再推動嘛那目前只調高了三分之一就是一塊八左右本來是三塊嘛那顯然分階段還要再去調整那我請你要前提去促成這個事情好不好所以我們現在很緊張啦一級二轉三加三很緊張不斷答應外地說他最近會安排例如說我們下鄉去傾聽這個農民的聲音嘛這個我們要趕快做"},{"start":79.482,"end":103.557,"text":"好 因為我們這個上個會期有動了今年度的業務費30%我本來認為說你們跳票只做了三分之一嘛因為立法院過的是一公斤五塊錢我們現在只調了1.82嘛那本來是要刪減你們的業務費的後來經過大家草野協商包括玉嶼他們都有進來一起協商所以沒有刪減可是凍結了30%那就要趕快去解決這個問題我們會尊重"},{"start":105.378,"end":119.743,"text":"照顧好我們的農民啦一方面你是農糧的專業你對這個事情最了解一方面是我們要好好去照顧我們的農民好不好是是沒問題沒問題當然當然這事情就滿你好不好盡快去達到每公斤調高五塊錢這個目標好不好我們會全力來做的好謝謝市長謝謝來副市委是委員長來看一下你們這個網頁啊國發會定名"},{"start":129.654,"end":153.563,"text":"國外的網友說你們在促進產業發展上面你們去協調推動能源政策跟相關的計畫結果現在發現你們去協調完之後我們的能源結構還是出了一堆問題過幾天就要漲電價了漲電價對產業也會有很大的衝擊不只民生啊對整個產業也會有很大的衝擊啊我現在要問幾個很重要的問題經過你們協調"},{"start":156.963,"end":169.761,"text":"再生能源有沒有達到你們國發會本來預定的這個目標你看一下喔 總統府本來在108年的時候總統府說再生能源在2025年的今年就要達到20%"},{"start":172.213,"end":193.837,"text":"不只跳票 跳得太離譜了現在大概只到12%嘛 對不對這是一個 國發會你說這個2050年要達到60到70%看起來這個目標看起來也不容易特別是我們用最近的來檢驗你說2030年就要到30%2035年要達到再生能源36%你覺得你們國家檢探新目標這再生能源有辦法達到嗎"},{"start":200.632,"end":226.407,"text":"跟委員報告現在2025年再生能源佔比是百分之二十啦那目標是什麼是延後到2026年才會搭配再生能源夠不夠今天通信的12%而已啦12%啊你們總統府本來說要20%已經跳票了嘛那現在延到說要往後一年可是明年度總統府說明年才會搞可是看起來是跳票啊你們國發會訂的是2030年要30老實講"},{"start":230.479,"end":241.486,"text":"難度很高啦我今天的質疑點就是說你國家發展很重要 你是領頭羊啊你訂目標要確而實際 對不對這確而實際嘛 如果訂完之後就一定要去達成 好不好來來來 我跟你講更嚴重的來不只達不到 你來看一下"},{"start":248.629,"end":264.639,"text":"童子賢啊 童子賢是國家氣候變遷對策委員會副召集人 召集人就是賴總統啦童子賢是副召集人 他怎麼說他說20 現在 現在如果他用前年2023年的這個用電來算我們全國用了2821億度的這個電"},{"start":270.362,"end":295.196,"text":"他說這個電如果全部都是向你們推再生能源用光電板去算會很恐怖耶這影響到我們全台灣人的生活空間他說如果全部用太陽能來發這個國家要用的電要需要10.5個台北市的這個面積就像台灣啊全部的面積有8%台灣有高山嘛對不對可以用的大部分比較精華都是平原嘛平原的30%三層全部都鋪蓋這個光電板"},{"start":300.762,"end":320.396,"text":"太陽光電板不可能嘛那這樣的話台灣就活不下去啦生活空間啊所以顯然在推動這個你說你不要去協調這個國家的這個能源的時候這個要非常注意好不好好謝謝他影響到生命的這個健康喔是生命的健康我先給大家看一個2019年啊"},{"start":322.649,"end":334.859,"text":"國際大型的公衛研究發現 他說什麼你如果是燒煤 燒煤這個煤增加1000瓦男性罹癌的這個比例就會增加59%女性更高 85%他們還進一步推估說2025年全球的這幾年"},{"start":347.799,"end":367.746,"text":"全世界有137萬個標準化的肺癌這個病例跟燃煤都是有關的那你們應該有責任你們定了目標而且你們要推再生能源結果煤越燒越大你看今年的發展是什麼把河山廠的一號機停掉馬上又要停二號機了以後就非核加鹽了低碳"},{"start":370.984,"end":373.265,"text":"核能沒有啦 零喔 增價是什麼?"},{"start":373.265,"end":386.61,"text":"九年啊 賣掉 我們現在買電本來是已經停了對不對?結果又延長 你看分年 假期 中華台中那些人多可憐這個我希望國泡會要好好注意喔另外 還影響到什麼?"},{"start":386.61,"end":390.272,"text":"很多國人的生活的支出面 過去三年漲四次"},{"start":391.494,"end":406.882,"text":"世界一樣愚人節又要這樣第五次這個人民生活受到影響企業也受到影響好第四個台電的財務面我今天給大家看一個很重要的財報這是第一次出現的財報台電一月份啊"},{"start":409.629,"end":426.223,"text":"虧損累累 光是1月份就虧損了97億有夠恐怖的喔台電以前是金雞模 他以前每年都可以剩餘兩三百億還給我們國庫了現在光是一個1月份 虧損了97億大家看一下 核能幫他賺了8億他雖然虧97億 核能還是幫他賺錢的喔"},{"start":430.994,"end":451.57,"text":"結果在最近5月17號核能要停掉那虧損不是更大嗎另外一個恐怖的數據你看風電喔1月份我們買風電都是可以買的太貴就虧損了56億天然氣虧了13另外除了自己台電自己的虧損用天然氣虧損13億之外外購的去外面買的又虧15億這個洞補不了啦不只是撥補1000億2000億"},{"start":460.709,"end":487.528,"text":"這個無底洞補不了你在漲電價一直漲也沒辦法解決問題嘛這個是多嚴重的一個問題這是第一次我給大家看的這是台電自己的財務報表一個月虧97億光電特別是光電請大家看一下光電跟風電那個損害有多大然後你又把最便宜的核電把它拿掉你說你要幫這個企業企業碰到一個很大的問題企業馬上就碰到碳配的問題對不對"},{"start":489.403,"end":506.669,"text":"副主委馬上看到碳費的問題碳費核電是低碳嘛幾乎是零碳啊結果你現在燒煤燒天然氣啊這個錢就附加在你這個碳費就附加在這個企業的這個身上了嘛影響了企業的發展跟他的競爭力嘛好最後我做一個結論"},{"start":508.356,"end":533.866,"text":"好好去檢討剛剛五個面向的這個大問題好不好好健康的這個問題是我們人民生活的這個整個面積環境的這個問題還有這個電價的這個問題是最後我建議我做四個建議第一個我們好好去檢討能源的政策的錯誤包括是不是應該趕快要重啟核電第二個現在行政院長跟每次都在講說要重啟核電碰到一個問題要社會共識"},{"start":536.374,"end":555.543,"text":"現在民調都很清楚啊以和養立公投也都過了啊你如果應該遵從民意嘛可是行政院到現在都還一直在講社會共識那我們今天鄭重的呼籲依照公投法第14條第一項的規定行政部門也可以倡議開始公投啊你們要社會共識"},{"start":556.912,"end":566.245,"text":"行政部門提案我們來公投一次到底要不要重啟核電另外加速去處理核廢料最終處理廠的這個問題這是法律上規定行政部門要做的"},{"start":567.284,"end":594.702,"text":"到現在都沒有好好做要加速第四個檢視核電廠的運作的這個安全好不好趕快去做這四點更重要的我現在今天拿的是你的網站上面的你既然要去協調要去檢視整個我們的能源政策要去振興產業這四個建議趕快做好不好而且從剛剛五個面向是一定要照顧到人民要去振興我們的這個景氣讓我們的能源政策整個回到正常好不好不要再這樣一直錯誤下去好 謝謝主委好 主席謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":221,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時41分）請農業部胡忠一次長跟國發會彭副主委。"],["主席：請胡次長跟彭副主委。"],["張委員啓楷：胡次長嘛？"],["胡次長忠一：是，委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：你以前是農糧署的署長，關於國內的農糧跟公糧，你應該是最專業的啦！"],["胡次長忠一：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我今天利用這個時間，你今天剛好來，因為立法院第一會期就通過了公糧收購每公斤要調高5塊錢嘛？"],["胡次長忠一：對。"],["張委員啓楷：大家都很努力，第一個，這是立法院通過的，第二個，是經過跟行政院的協商，包括部長都有說這個完整的配套要好好再推動。目前只調高了三分之一，就是1塊8左右，本來是3塊嘛？顯然還要再分階段去調整，我請你要全力去促成這件事情，好不好？"],["胡次長忠一：我們現在很認真在推啦！很認真在推1集、2轉、3加3。"],["張委員啓楷：部長答應我的是，他最近會安排下鄉去傾聽農民的聲音，這個要趕快做。"],["胡次長忠一：好。"],["張委員啓楷：因為上個會期有凍了今年度的業務費30%，我本來認為說你們跳票，只做了三分之一，因為立法院過的是1公斤5塊錢，你們現在只調了1.82，本來是要刪減你們的業務費，後來經過大家朝野協商，包括蔡易餘，他們都有進來一起協商，所以沒有刪減，可是凍結了30%，要趕快去解決這個問題，好不好？"],["胡次長忠一：是，我們會尊重……"],["張委員啓楷：要照顧好我們的農民，你是農糧的專業，你對這個事情最了解。"],["胡次長忠一：不敢當。"],["張委員啓楷：一方面是要好好去照顧我們的農民，好不好？"],["胡次長忠一：是，沒問題，當然。"],["張委員啓楷：這事情就麻煩你，好不好？儘快去達到每公斤調高5塊錢這個目標，好不好？"],["胡次長忠一：是，我們會全力來做，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝，次長先請回。來，副主委。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：來看一下你們這個網頁，國發會的網頁上說你們在促進產業發展方面，你們去協調推動能源政策跟相關的計畫，結果現在發現你們去協調完之後，我們的能源結構還是出了一堆問題，過幾天就要漲電價了，漲電價對產業也會有很大衝擊，不只民生，對整個產業也會有很大的衝擊。我現在要問幾個很重要的問題，經過你們的協調，再生能源有沒有達到國發會本來預定的目標？你看一下喔！總統府本來在108年的時候說，再生能源在2025年（即今年）就達到20%。不只跳票，跳得太離譜了，現在大概只到12%嘛，對不對？這是一個，國發會說2050年要達到60到70%，這個目標看起來也不容易，我們用最近的來檢驗，你說2030年就要到30%，2035年要達到再生能源36%，你覺得國家減碳新目標，這再生能源有辦法達到嗎？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：跟委員報告，現在2025年再生能源占比是20%，目標是延後到2026年要達成……"],["張委員啓楷：等等，再生能源到目前統計才12%而已。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：12%。"],["張委員啓楷：總統府本來說要20%已經跳票了嘛？現在說要往後延一年，總統府說明年才會到，可是看起來是跳票。國發會訂的是2030年要30%，老實說難度很高啦！我今天的質疑點是因為國家發展很重要，你是領頭羊啊！你訂目標要切合實際，對不對？第二個，如果訂完之後就一定要去達成，好不好？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：謝謝委員指教，我們虛心檢討。"],["張委員啓楷：來，我跟你講更嚴重的，不只達不到，你來看一下，童子賢是國家氣候變遷對策委員會副召集人，召集人是賴總統，童子賢是副召集人，他怎麼說？他說如果他用前（2023）年的用電來算，我們全國用了2,822億度的電，他說這個電如果全部都是像你們推的再生能源，用光電板去算會很恐怖耶，這影響到我們全臺灣人的生活空間。他說如果全部用太陽能來發國家要用的電，要需要10.5個臺北市的面積，等於臺灣全部面積的8%，臺灣有高山，對不對？可以用的大部分比較精華的都是平原，平原的30%，等於三成全部都鋪蓋太陽光電板，這是不可能的嘛！因為這樣的話，臺灣就生活不下去啦！這有關生活空間啊！所以顯然在推動這個、你說你們要去協調國家能源的時候，這個要非常注意，好不好？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：好，謝謝委員……"],["張委員啓楷：它影響到生命健康，我先給大家看一個，2019年國際大型的公衛研究發現，如果是燒煤，每增加1kW，男性罹癌的比例就會增加59%，男的喔！增加1kW就增加了59%的罹癌率，女性更高，85%耶，他們還進一步去推估全球2025年，就是今年，全世界有137萬個標準化的肺癌病例跟燃煤都是有關的，那你們應該有責任啊！你們訂了目標，而且你們要推再生能源，結果煤愈燒愈大，你看今年的發展是什麼？把核三廠的1號機停掉，馬上又要停2號機，以後都非核家園了，低碳的核能沒有了，是零喔！增加的是什麼？去年我們跟麥寮買電，本來就已經停了，結果又延長，你看雲林、嘉義、彰化、臺中那些人多可憐！這個我希望國發會要好好注意。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外還影響到什麼？很多國人的生活支出面，過去3年漲4次，4月1號愚人節又要漲第5次，人民生活受到影響，企業也受到影響。第四個是台電的財務面，我今天給大家看一個很重要的財報，這是第一次出現的財報，台電1月份虧損累累，光是1月份就虧損了97億，有夠恐怖！台電以前是金雞母喔！它以前每年都可以剩餘兩、三百億，還給我們國庫，現在光是1月份就虧損了97億，大家看一下，核能幫它賺了8億，它雖然虧了97億，但核能還是幫它賺錢的喔，結果最近5月17號核能要停掉，那虧損不是更大嗎？另外來看一個恐怖的數據，1月份我們買風電，這個可能買太貴，結果虧損了56億，天然氣虧了13億，另外除了台電自己的天然氣虧損13億之外，外購的、去外面買的又虧15億，這個都補不了啦！不只是撥補1,000億、2,000億，這個無底洞補不了，你再漲電價，一直漲也沒辦法解決問題嘛！這個是多嚴重的一個問題，這是第一次我給大家看的，這是台電自己的財務報表，一個月虧97億，特別是光電，請大家看一下光電跟風電，那個損害有多大，然後你又把最便宜的核電拿掉，你說你要幫企業，企業碰到一個很大的問題，企業馬上就會碰到碳費的問題，對不對？副主委，馬上碰到碳費的問題。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是，碳費。"],["張委員啓楷：核電是低碳，幾乎是零碳，結果你現在燒煤、燒天然氣，這個碳費就附加在企業的身上了，影響了企業的發展跟競爭力。","最後我做一個結論，好好去檢討剛剛五個面向的大問題，好不好？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：好。"],["張委員啓楷：健康的問題、人民整個生活面積環境的問題、電價的問題。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是。"],["張委員啓楷：最後我作4個建議：第1個，好好去檢討能源政策的錯誤，包括是不是應該要趕快重啟核電；第2個，現在行政院長每次都在講，要重啟核電會碰到一個問題，要有社會共識。現在民調都很清楚啊！「以核養綠」公投也都過了，應該遵從民意嘛！可是行政院到現在都一直在講要社會共識，我們今天鄭重的呼籲，依照公投法第十四條第一項的規定，行政部門也可以倡議公投，你們要有社會共識，請行政部門提案，我們來公投一次，看到底要不要重啟核電；第3個，加速處理核廢料最終處置場的問題，這是法律規定行政部門要做的，到現在都沒有好好做，要加速；第4個，檢視核電廠運作的安全。趕快去做這4個，更重要的，我現在是拿你網站上面的，既然要去協調、要去檢視我們整個的能源政策，要去振興產業，這4個建議趕快做，好不好？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是。"],["張委員啓楷：從剛剛的5個面向，一定要照顧到人民，要去振興我們的景氣，讓我們的能源政策回到正常，好不好？不要再這樣一直錯誤下去，謝謝，請回，謝謝主席。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員。下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖先翔","陳冠廷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴惠員"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、農業部部長、內政部首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就\n「鄉村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展韌性之規劃方向」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}