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謝謝那我們是不是有請國安會副組委以及農業部次長和內政部國土管理署的副署長還有那個農村發展及水土保持署一樣是副署長我們請四位一起謝謝好"},{"start":40.499,"end":66.361,"text":"針對今天安排的這樣的一個命題那主要我們事實上都很關心從剛剛所有發言的委員大家都在關心說國土計畫法展延了六年那這六年我們究竟要做什麼事情那我想先還是就整個台灣的一個前提雖然我們知道台灣的鄉村是在凋零這個台灣的鄉村凋零這件事情"},{"start":67.342,"end":89.068,"text":"是非常的速度非常的快比少子化的問題還要嚴重就是鄉村凋零所以你來看喔在2022年的時候在那一個年度天下雜誌就有做出了一個就是說他已經統計說當一個年度他在那一年已經說有11個村裡台灣有11個村裡是連鎖5當沒有新生兒"},{"start":95.47,"end":113.296,"text":"包括新北也有苗栗南投我們嘉義縣的布袋的考試里梅山的壁虎里台南高雄宜蘭澎湖都有這樣連續五年沒有新生兒然後在2022年那一年全台灣有179個叫做五子村里"},{"start":114.195,"end":132.837,"text":"那新北市是居冠就是那個增淘沒孩子出息那這代表的原因是什麼呢?背後意涵的意義是什麼呢?就是增淘變沒路用於增淘為什麼會變沒路用於?就是鄉村裡面的建地"},{"start":134.261,"end":155.061,"text":"第一個,地權、地用第一個地權的問題鄉村的建地因為價錢的關係,池分越分越細池分變細,基本上後面的人要輸贏賣贏本來我們這個家族有一個人他財力比較好,他說好我來把過去家裡的三合院我來打敲敲的"},{"start":155.842,"end":181.027,"text":"哇 可是家裡不同的人有意見啊不同沒人幫的有意見那我就不能使用所以你看整個鄉村大概年輕人想要回到鄉村去說我回來我出生的這個部落我要在這裡恢復是沒有機會的這是第一個第二個咧整個鄉村是讓他的機能不見了過去喔過去我們在鎮卡路是騎腳踏車"},{"start":185.815,"end":193.403,"text":"現在的交通就不是腳踏車,現在差不多都賣塞車你看整台車都是小型的,一台車要塞進去就要有工夫、要有技術整台車就老實說是小型車"},{"start":201.434,"end":219.624,"text":"所以我要跟我們在場與會的我們各位長官我們一直在講說 鄉村的社區要有所謂的三生我們可以說地方創生的三生是什麼 要有什麼生態 要有生活 要有生產"},{"start":221.417,"end":237.91,"text":"這我們都講得很好聽,大家都會...我都會背啊問題咧?我們鄉村的蒸頭咧?有...沒錢啦!對不對?沒辦法生活沒心酸就...加蒸頭的一間乾媽店看起來要為錢就有困難了過去那種用酒乾媽店,哇!充滿著我們過去故鄉的感覺都不見了那間乾媽店沒辦法生存啦生態也沒有"},{"start":251.599,"end":278.954,"text":"所以我具體要說的就是說既然我們這六年的時間我們要有所作為啊這個作為咧就是這次我們打鄉規入法那鄉規入法有一個很大的重點就是我們要怎麼樣協助每一個村莊尤其是越偏鄉的村莊越沒人住的村莊十分越複雜的村莊我們要怎麼協助他們整合產權"},{"start":282.708,"end":308.682,"text":"叫他們整合產權 這要有時間 大家要去等他們他們要有整個 而且你們這個鄉規路法你們要把一些鄉規 鄉村規劃的模擬範本要告知這些人就是說這一個鄉村裡面要有多少的建地 建地要重整道路用地 路要變大條這個鄉村裡面要有多少商業機能"},{"start":310.558,"end":328.91,"text":"就是要有多少地方是用作生意的你這些東西都要處理要怎麼處理呢?很簡單的你要求一條錢你要有一個基金這個基金我們看要用哪些保險基金怎樣大家來談你要有一個基金要大家的氣氛"},{"start":332.471,"end":343.35,"text":"如果我是所有權人我覺得這個池噴對我來說是一個負擔的他可以用合理鑑定後的一個價格把這個他的土地池噴賣給這樣的一個基金"},{"start":345.102,"end":364.913,"text":"你要賣給他 讓這個基金開始大家的氣氛湧起來未來在鄉村 在做於整個鄉村的這個都市計畫檢討的時候這個基金它等於就可以分配到土地分配到土地 那就是可以做未來這個政策的公共設施"},{"start":366.969,"end":374.652,"text":"這就是我們要做的行為好我都說完了我想要聽一下我們國發會我們國土署跟我們農業部三個單位的意見好謝謝趙偉的"},{"start":384.676,"end":401.263,"text":"覺得還蠻興奮的那剛剛提到的就是如果我們就激動就是舊的一個社區其實尤其是農村社區其實它的吃份還有它的產權這些是相對複雜的所以我剛剛看"},{"start":402.023,"end":416.539,"text":"看委員的報告裡面其實有特別提到就是有關比較公的部分怎麼樣去做處理那我覺得這個其實真的可以從內政部這個有一個國土永續發展基金然後可以從他的鄉村地區整體規劃"},{"start":417.74,"end":444.441,"text":"甚至鄉村的細部計畫這邊能夠去做一些可能的處理那當然我覺得過程是要溝通的因為要地方這麼多的人然後他們都有一些共識這需要時間所以我們這次還有六年我們這次的展演不是說兩年三年六年是要做事的六年協助整個鄉村把它活絡起來來我想再聽一下我們這個內政部我們國土署"},{"start":447.048,"end":467.777,"text":"謝謝趙偉跟蔡委員的質詢兩個人是同一個人是那第一件事情其實因為相規的制度它這空間制度就誠如您剛剛講您講得很清楚啦就是說我們在鄉村地區既有的很多的政策還有很多的計畫那這部分現在最後一路應該是所謂空間"},{"start":469.398,"end":496.603,"text":"包含產權的分合跟建築的部分這個部分還有一塊這個部分那這相關的設計其實在這邊就可以做第一件事做平台把這些資訊跨這邊去就如您所講的到底真正要集村集村要多大過去那東西怎麼調節然後再來其實是相關的配套例如農寵這些相關的配套把它整進來然後還有公共設施的錢那麼跟委員報告如果要做這件事除了錢之外我個人認為還要人"},{"start":498.584,"end":510.765,"text":"沒有 因為量很大而且還要專業的培育每個村莊都會有不同的狀況這個在我們的國土署裡面教育訓練這些東西我們都有規劃都在去做努力跟相關部分"},{"start":511.965,"end":531.954,"text":"還是需要各部會的一起協助,這部分我們一定配合所有的部會一起努力把這個永續跟繁榮的農村把它找回來,謝謝好,謝謝國土署,那我們再請農業部,非常感謝總召這個指教,其實我們不是總召,是召委召委的這個指教,其實這個"},{"start":535.735,"end":545.907,"text":"國土計畫法裡面有城鄉發展區,還有農業發展區,農業發展區的農事就是剛才委員你在說的,這個部分是我們在農業部,我們的農村再生有在做的。另外就是城鄉發展區裡面,城二裡面,它是鄉村,但是不是農業,這也是鄉村區。"},{"start":555.919,"end":574.507,"text":"所以這大概一半去分布 我覺得這比較有必要的跨部會的整合 由國會出來因為我們現在在做什麼 我們在做就是農村再生 培根計畫 或者是把它合訂然後對地方的公共建設 還有這些跨域的整合 還有教育訓練等等市長 你剛才有說到城鄉區跟農業發展區但是我覺得 就我要跟你指教的啦 我覺得你講的是現況"},{"start":582.386,"end":601.913,"text":"就是現況它就是它以現況去變 它現在這樣去改變 可是現在現況就是很糟糕啊就是我講的啊 那個蒸頭 聖保羅用蒸頭一樣的我再比一下咧 我們如果有一個叫極限村 永賢村 極限什麼叫極限就是那裡老闆65歲以上的 超過一半 超過50%都是65歲以上的"},{"start":606.654,"end":627.289,"text":"那個部落 都沒有以為要出生所以那個部落的一個整個生命力沒有了好 如果我是在一個村莊的人我跟你說我們六角出了三個署長侯友宜署長 陳國恩署長還有一個以前的 以前的廖正豪廖正豪出這麼多老人"},{"start":628.65,"end":649.171,"text":"出這麼多老人的地方就算我拿著一筆錢想要說我一定要把我的政壇待遇復甦沒辦法啦因為老人就沒配合你啦所以現在國土局法會被人家罵咧就是你們只是把現況換個名字這個現況換一個名字才會被罵嘛因為沒有改變嘛"},{"start":650.563,"end":666.417,"text":"你聽我的意思嗎我知道我知道 那個所有管沒辦法套我現在是說我們有這六檔我們要套這件事情所以好我現在具體建議啦第一個我認為說我們要有一個六年計畫剛才說因為你要每一個村莊你要叫他們去幾位要有那些人 既然要有一群人來遊說我們來參加鄉村重新規劃他們要登出來"},{"start":676.906,"end":683.772,"text":"他們要投出來 市長也要投50%出來嘛相關要50% 這50%要怎麼投出來這要有一群人 要有一群人去那裡招種我們就要有所謂的一個預算所以這六年計畫你們這三個單位應該是要由國發會整合剩下農業部跟我們內政部"},{"start":698.226,"end":715.632,"text":"六年計劃,要有一筆錢,你就看台灣有多少薄荷,你就除以六,大概一年,需要我們來輔導多多少已經失去生活機能的鄉村,讓他去做鄉規,就要有錢,因為你要訓練這裡的人。第二,我剛才說的,你要有一筆基金,"},{"start":720.639,"end":737.226,"text":"開始來這裡氣氛,沒路用的氣氛,開始修修回來,修越多,未來我們鄉歸內這一個村莊它才會有更多道路的空間要有公共設施保留地,村頭裡面也要進去創一個小公園這樣也比較有生態"},{"start":741.448,"end":769.883,"text":"所以你要有公共設施保留地 你要有可以做太陽枯的間諜在那邊藝學館也可以在那裡做生意這個鄉村才會活起來啊所以跟這兩件事我拜託你們要有一個進度至少現階段三個月內你們能不能先把所謂鄉規我們理想中的鄉村長什麼樣子的範本先把它"},{"start":770.774,"end":785.895,"text":"先把他拉出來給我們看好不好好謝謝這件事是不是這個範本的事情我們會一起努力不過那個國務組這邊是主管機關是不是三個月內三個月內未來走向最後的一個範本"},{"start":788.74,"end":803.469,"text":"委員垂詢的部分的高度跟戰略性非常高啦三個月因為我這也不是非常高啦我意思是說這就是要開始下去處理了嘛我也沒有說這一時三刻有辦法的總是我們先把整個風雲抓出來"},{"start":805.47,"end":825.941,"text":"一起開會可以嗎?好啦我再來辦公廳會啦,可是你們就是要,那你們至少把現在有在走鄉規的,就我知道有六十幾個嘛是你們把它都整理出來,然後每一個鄉規完,他們的這個政策,他們的間諜怎麼重新調整,他們的路怎麼圍,我要看,大家拿出來看一下"},{"start":829.738,"end":845.095,"text":"趕快整理啦 不要嘗試啦 這本來就是要整理的 要不然怎麼輔導別人去做你應該 現在已經有成功 也許做了沒很成功的事情也是一個範本大家拿出來看 要不然我就去輔導新的團隊出來啊"},{"start":847.113,"end":864.253,"text":"好不好 你如果這個都不走出來基本上這六年會變成空蕩蕩的六年啦六年後大家也是新的一輩子在外面發生的我們這裡大家不在這裡也新的一輩子說 再十年再十年 十年謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝謝謝余召委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":380,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（10時16分）謝謝。是不是有請國發會副主委、農業部次長、內政部國土管理署副署長，還有農村發展及水土保持署副署長？"],["主席：OK，請4位一起，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：針對今天安排的命題，主要是我們都很關心，剛剛所有發言的委員大家都在關心國土計畫法展延了6年，這6年究竟要做什麼事情。我想先還是就整個臺灣的前提，我們知道臺灣的鄉村在凋零，臺灣鄉村凋零的速度非常地快，比少子化的問題還要嚴重的就是鄉村凋零的問題。2022年的時候天下雜誌就有統計，在那一年臺灣有11個村里連續5年沒有新生兒，包括新北也有，其他像苗栗、南投、我們嘉義縣的布袋考試里、梅山的碧湖里、臺南、高雄、宜蘭、澎湖都連續5年沒有新生兒。而且在2022年那一年，全臺灣有179個無子村里，新北市居冠，就是那個村莊沒有孩子出生，這代表的原因是什麼？背後隱含的意義是什麼？就是村莊變成沒有用。","村莊為什麼會變成沒有用？就是因為鄉村裡面的建地，第一個，地權地用，地權的問題，鄉村的建地因為繼承的關係，持分愈分愈細，持分變細了，基本上後面要使用人很難使用。舉例來說，家族裡面如果某個人財力比較好，想把過去家裡的三合院整理一下，可是家裡不同的人、不同房的有意見，那就不能使用；鄉村的年輕人想要回到鄉村、回到出生的部落恢復往日的榮景，是沒有機會的，這是第一個。第二個，整個鄉村的機能不見了。過去鄉下的路是騎腳踏車，但是現在主要的交通工具就不是腳踏車，差不多都是開車，而鄉下每個道路都很小條，一台車想要開進去還得有點技術，因為鄉下的道路是沒辦法會車的。","所以我要跟在場各位與會長官說的是，我們一直在講說鄉村的社區要有所謂的三生，地方創生的三生是什麼？也要有生態、也要有生活、也要有生產，這都講得很好聽，大家都會，我都會背！問題呢？我們鄉村的村莊沒有小孩，對不對？沒辦法生活、沒生產力，光是村莊的一間雜貨店要維持都有困難，過去那種「用九柑仔店」充滿著我們過去故鄉的感覺，現在都不見了，那間雜貨店沒辦法生存，生態也沒有。","我具體要說的就是，既然我們這6年的時間要有所作為，這個作為就是這次我們把鄉規入法，鄉規入法有一個很大的重點，就是我們要怎麼樣協助每一個村莊，尤其是越偏鄉的村莊、越沒人住的村莊、持分越複雜的村莊，我們要怎麼協助他們整合產權？要他們整合產權需要時間，大家要去蓋章，他們要有自己的規劃。而且你們的這個鄉規入法要把一些鄉村規劃的模擬範本告知這些人，也就是說，這一個鄉村裡面要有多少的建地、建地要重整、道路用地要讓馬路變大條，這個鄉村裡面要有多少商業機能、要有多少地方是讓人做生意的，這些東西你都要處理。","那要怎麼處理呢？很簡單！你要有一筆錢、你要有一個基金，這個基金我們看要用哪一些保險基金，大家來談，你要有一個基金來把這些持分太細的，如果我是所有權人，我覺得這個持分對我來說是一個負擔，他可以用合理鑑定後的價格把他的土地持分賣給這樣的一個基金，讓這個基金開始把這些持分組合起來，未來整個鄉村在做都市計畫檢討的時候，這一個基金等於就可以分配到土地，分配到土地之後，未來就可以做這個村子的公共設施，這就是你們要做的工作。我都講完了，我想要聽一下國發會、國土署跟農業部三個單位的意見。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：謝謝召委，您還滿興奮的，剛剛提到的就是，如果我們……"],["蔡委員易餘：興奮不起來，激動！"],["彭副主任委員立沛：關於舊的社區，尤其是農村社區，其實它的持分還有它的產權這些是相對複雜的，我剛剛看委員的報告裡面其實有特別提到，有關比較公的部分怎麼樣去做處理，我覺得這個其實真的可以從內政部有一個國土永續發展基金，可以從鄉村地區整體規劃，甚至鄉村的細部計畫這邊能夠去做一些可能的處理。","當然我覺得過程是要溝通的，因為要地方這麼多人都有一些共識，這需要花一點時間……"],["蔡委員易餘：要時間，所以我們這次才用6年，我們這次的展延不是說2年、3年，6年是要做事的6年，協助整個鄉村、把它活絡起來。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想再聽一下內政部國土署。"],["徐副署長燕興：謝謝召委跟蔡委員的質詢。"],["蔡委員易餘：兩個人是同一個人。"],["徐副署長燕興：是！第一件事情，其實鄉規這個制度就誠如您剛剛講的，你講得很清楚，我們在鄉村地區有很多既有的政策、還有很多的計畫，這部分現在最後一哩路應該是所謂空間，空間包含產權的分合跟建築的部分，其中還有一塊這個部分。關於鄉規的設計，其實在這邊第一件事情是做平臺把這些資訊跨到這邊去，就如您所講的，到底真正要集村、集村要多大、過去那些東西怎麼調節，再來是相關的配套，例如把農重這些相關的配套整合進來，然後還有公共設施的錢。跟委員報告，如果要做這件事，除了錢之外，我個人認為還要有人！"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯。"],["徐副署長燕興：因為量很大，而且還要專業的培育。"],["蔡委員易餘：每個村莊都會有不同的狀況。"],["徐副署長燕興：在我們國土署裡面，教育訓練等等這些東西我們都有規劃、都努力在做相關部分，但還是需要各部會一起協助，這個部分我們一定配合所有的部會一起努力，把永續跟繁榮的農村找回來，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝國土署，再請農業部。"],["胡次長忠一：非常感謝總召指教。"],["蔡委員易餘：不是總召，是召委，這樣我會很嚴重！"],["胡次長忠一：召委的指教，其實國土計畫法裡面有城鄉發展區、也有農業發展區，農業發展區的農4就是剛才委員說的，這個部分我們農業部的農村再生有在做的，另外就是在城鄉發展區裡面的城2，它是鄉村但不是農業，這也是鄉村區，這些很難區分，不過我覺得這確實有必要跨部會的整合，由國發會來做。我們現在做的是什麼？我們現在做的就是農村再生培根計畫，核定後對地方的公共建設、跨域整合以及教育訓練等等，這沒辦法解決……"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，你剛才有說到城鄉區跟農業發展區，但是我覺得……這是我要跟你指教的，我覺得你講的是現況，它以現況去變，現在這樣去將它改變，可是現在現況就是很糟糕啊！"],["胡次長忠一：是，我知道。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是我講的，那個村莊算沒有用的村莊了！我舉一個例子，我們六腳鄉有一個稱為極限村的永賢村，為什麼叫極限？就是那些65歲以上的老人家超過一半、超過50%都是65歲以上的，那個部落都沒有幼兒出生，所以那個部落的整個生命力沒有了，如果我是那一個村莊的人，我跟你說我們六腳出了三個署長，侯友宜署長、陳國恩署長，還有一個是以前的廖正豪，針對出這麼多厲害人物的地方，就算我們拿著一筆錢想要復甦我們的村莊還是沒辦法，因為別人就不配合。"],["胡次長忠一：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以現在國土計畫法會被人家罵，就是你們只是把現況換個名字，這個現況換一個名字才會被罵，因為沒有改變嘛！"],["胡次長忠一：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：你聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["胡次長忠一：我知道，那個所有權如果沒辦法解決，我們推農村再生……"],["蔡委員易餘：現在就是我們要用這6年解決這件事情，我現在具體建議，第一個，我認為我們要有一個6年計畫，剛才提到，如果要每一個村莊去規劃，至少要有一群人來遊說大家參加鄉村整體重新規劃，章要蓋出來，至少也要蓋50%出來，鄉規要50%，這50%要怎麼蓋出來？這要有一群人去奔走，我們就要有所謂的預算，所以針對這個6年計畫，你們這3個單位應該要由國發會整合，加上農業部跟內政部，6年計畫要有一筆錢，你就看臺灣有多少部落然後除以6，就知道我們一年大概需要輔導多少已經失去生活機能的鄉村去做鄉規，那就要有錢，因為你要訓練這些人。","第二，如同我剛才說的，你要有一筆基金開始將這些沒用的持分收回來，倘若收的越多，未來執行鄉規之後，這一個村莊才會有更多的路道拓寬、公共設施保留地，村莊裡面至少也要做一個小公園，這樣也比較有生態，對不對？所以要有公共設施保留地，也要有可以做商業區的建地，以後才能在那邊做生意，這個鄉村才會活起來啊！"],["胡次長忠一：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這兩件事情我拜託你們要有一個進度，至少現階段3個月內，你們能不能先把所謂的鄉規、我們理想中的鄉村長什麼樣子的範本先拿出來給我們看，好不好？"],["胡次長忠一：好，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個範本的事情是不是……"],["彭副主任委員立沛：我們會一起努力，不過國土署這邊是主管機關，是不是3個月內可以……"],["蔡委員易餘：3個月內提供未來走鄉規後的一個範本？"],["徐副署長燕興：委員垂詢部分的高度跟戰略性非常高，3個月，因為……"],["蔡委員易餘：這也不是非常高啦！我的意思是說，這就是要開始處理了，我也不是說這是一時半刻有辦法的，但總是要先把整個方向抓出來啊！"],["徐副署長燕興：我們一起開會，可以嗎？"],["蔡委員易餘：好啦，我再來辦公聽會啦！可是你們至少要把現在有在走鄉規的，就我知道有六十幾個嘛！"],["徐副署長燕興：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們把它都整理出來，然後每個鄉規做完，對於每個村莊的建地要如何重新調整、道路要怎麼劃設，都要逐一拿出來檢視一下啊！這樣好不好？"],["徐副署長燕興：我們嘗試整理，不過……"],["蔡委員易餘：趕快整理，不要嘗試啦！這本來就是要整理的，不然你們怎麼輔導別人去做？"],["徐副署長燕興：這需要很大的人力。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們應該就現在已經成功的，即使做得不很成功，至少也是一個範本，每個都拿出來看，以後才能輔導出新的團隊啊！好不好？如果你們都不走出去，基本上這6年就會變成空蕩蕩的6年，6年後說不定我們就不在這裡，換新的一批立委進來又要求展延，而且要展延10年！"],["彭副主任委員立沛：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘召委。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：下一位請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-5","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖先翔","陳冠廷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴惠員"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、農業部部長、內政部首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就\n「鄉村發展總體檢討及如何提升城鄉發展韌性之規劃方向」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}