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業務會被刪除50%了 刪50% 凍結10%所以你大概有60%的錢不能用了我常講 任何一個個人 或者家庭你的收入給你減少50% 60% 你的生活絕對會受到影響"},{"start":51.803,"end":70.609,"text":"那 業務費啊 7千多萬被刪了 被刪凍啊大概剩下多少剩下 從7千多萬你現在可以用的錢大概有3354萬我幫你算出來啦 齁NCC現在可以用的錢啊剩3354萬"},{"start":73.151,"end":98.997,"text":"但你這個業務費啊 是不是要拿來付房租 要不要要 土地租借2500多萬來 NCC的房子啊 是跟人家租的啊那個 NCC租房子要不要付錢要 要啦 當然要付租金嘛NCC的房租一年多少錢2562萬 我都幫你查出來了所以你目前可以用的錢有3354"},{"start":101.667,"end":128.418,"text":"光付掉房租就付掉百分之七十六就是兩千五百六十二萬要付房租大概剩下不到八百萬啊純模備八萬啊NCC的業務費 公務預算啊一個月大概要花多少錢我去調你已經花掉的啊一個月可不可以開四百萬啊所以你這七百 將近八百萬你目前可用的公務預算"},{"start":130.031,"end":157.514,"text":"扣掉房租剩八百萬這個月已經用掉四百萬剩下四月我看你存了錢四月營料就不錢了對 沒錯所以我們就是比較傷腦筋就是我們想辦法讓房租的租賃兩千五百多萬想要跟地主來協商看看能不能延後支付要出租本價給你收出出來"},{"start":158.795,"end":176.685,"text":"人家出租我們賣那為什麼我們的政治我們的政治衝突生害到人民的人民的權益就要處理的 那就要跟他講了 那不可以阻礙你如果老出水是違約的好 就算給你10%來解凍多了700多萬 給750幾萬而已大概也撐不到兩個月"},{"start":188.089,"end":203.578,"text":"三掉50% 凍結10%就算給你解凍 如果沒有解凍 你4月用完就沒錢了如果就算有解凍 也撐不到六月 差不多六月那NCC我看一下你去年 即使你"},{"start":204.844,"end":215.913,"text":"比較多跟民眾有關係的像我們北區處 尤其是在北區有一個民眾可以臨櫃到櫃台去服務的案件一年有7687件我們2024年新的認證就是民眾送來認證的有7747件"},{"start":228.051,"end":242.114,"text":"從國外進口到海關海關進口要NCC蓋章 大家知道NCC不去檢查海關是不放行的因為那個射頻必須要NCC認證檢驗的海關有25600件其中還有一個跟民眾權益有關係的就是你建築物的電信設備審查和審驗有將近3萬件"},{"start":253.032,"end":273.059,"text":"比如說我們一般 我們蓋房子啦 你的住家啦 你的大樓啦你那邊的電信設備喔 那些都要NCC來審查和審驗嘛 是不是這樣是 運作那你現在如果4月以後沒有辦法運作 那這些就會影響到人民的權利啦"},{"start":274.144,"end":294.716,"text":"沒錯 也跟委員報告還報告我們所謂的通信監理系統是一個電腦系統電腦系統所使用的水電費如果水電費支付出去電腦系統掛掉大概整個運作都會停擺沒關係啦反正黃國昌委員說要三道讓民眾有感這個NCC這個民眾絕對有感啦對不對好再來"},{"start":301.869,"end":323.82,"text":"現在NCC還有一個問題 你的委員沒有人 不能開會這個絕對是法定總額 還不用說法定總額你現在不能開會 我幫你調查一下到今年6月2025年剩兩個月 執照到期要換新照 廣播業者"},{"start":325.066,"end":337.936,"text":"有25張無線電視有4張4家衛星廣播業者有9家那你現在這些都不能換照到今年6月就齊滿了我有沒有算錯沒有錯37家4月38張照沒錯這些都不能換照那不能換照就處於一種違法的狀態下營業是不是這樣"},{"start":357.292,"end":385.047,"text":"對 從某個角度來看是這樣對嘛對 法律條文你要換照那你沒有換照你就違法營業那業者說又不是我不換照是你NCC不能審查所以啊有去法院提告提定暫時狀態處分有 那我們有業者已經跑去提告說不是我不換照是你們NCC不能審因為你們沒有委員結果去提告結果業者敗訴"},{"start":386.841,"end":407.349,"text":"業者說NCC不能審是政治問題所以他司法權他不能介入所以現在問題要回歸到原點不能換照違法狀態下繼續營業光6月就要有30幾家25家廣播業者4家無線電視還有9家的衛星廣播電視那能不能給他罰款"},{"start":420.287,"end":437.693,"text":"因為他違法狀態營業嘛好那我不能給你撤照那我給你罰錢我們規定是這樣喔你換照沒有通過原來的規定啦原條文規定如果你沒有換照你繼續營業我就給你罰錢對不對履法不定我就給你撤照好那要不要罰錢"},{"start":439.653,"end":459.478,"text":"我聽說NCC去辦了一個專家會議是不是這樣2月20幾號請了四個專家來解釋那這種狀態下能不能罰款四個專家很不幸的有四個意見四個看完都不敢"},{"start":460.976,"end":480.352,"text":"因為你要請專家 你不想輸掉的先問一下你就叫四個 表示你這個會議是開真的沒有事先串通所以四位專家會議做出四項結論第一個 第一個說委員不足因為是你們的委員人數不足嘛 所以不能罰第二個說"},{"start":485.253,"end":507.791,"text":"我寫在這邊 第二個就是說你業者沒有經許可營業行為進行裁罰 但是他在合法期間有提出信賴保護原則你不能罰再來也有主張 合法期間提出環境申請不等於一定要取得新執照所以不能主張信賴保護原則 這個意思是可以罰的 也覺得可以罰的"},{"start":509.807,"end":517.731,"text":"那還有一個主張更明確沒有自行決定是否裁法的這個裁量空間你就是要法那現在怎麼辦因為是處於這種灰色地帶我們內部還在討論專家會議的四種意見你們內部怎麼討論等下是找專家先問一下他意見找四個意見一樣的來開"},{"start":536.46,"end":546.147,"text":"這樣你比較有根據啦不然你怎麼開人家這四個專家真的就做出事項決議好那能不能廢止執照因為我沒有辦法審嘛現在業者也會擔心啦那會不會被你撤照"},{"start":554.403,"end":568.201,"text":"沒有辦法沒有辦法 業者不用擔心啦 也不能湊照啦因為管頻道頻率的是樹花部啦不是NCC啦那樹花部除非NCC廢照"},{"start":569.304,"end":588.688,"text":"數化部才會去把無線電頻率收回去啦 是不是這樣是 成績上是這樣嘛那你NCC你現在不會廢照 你廢照委員嗎 報告你要廢照也不行啊對 組織法9條2項5款是沒有辦法廢所以NCC現在就處於一個最標準的完全癱瘓的狀態啦這個實在是很可悲啦"},{"start":595.728,"end":605.52,"text":"那你現在我剛剛講的每年有幾萬件喔去年海關通行案件有兩萬五千多件喔現在卡在海關你那個射頻沒有認證的"},{"start":608.122,"end":635.327,"text":"你這個是沒有錢處理啦這也沒錢處理啦然後新的產品認證的一年去年有7700件民眾到櫃台直接請申請服務的有7600多件各大樓住家房屋電信設備的審驗審查一年有大概3萬件你的業務費再撐一兩個月就沒錢了我看接下來"},{"start":638.988,"end":644.695,"text":"這個人民就會真的感受到了你這樣預算這樣刪真的是會影響到民眾的權利有沒有來 主委你有什麼看法"},{"start":652.056,"end":676.951,"text":"確實跟委員報告的因為我們這些通傳系統、監理系統、海關認證系統都是用電腦化作業那電腦化會使用到水電費、通訊費跟海關之間的網路連線那些預算都沒有的情況之下如果這個通傳的電腦系統都停止運作的話就會這個這方面也有全部都會停止拜託出頭家不要這麼害羞出水出頭家給我答應"},{"start":678.644,"end":682.265,"text":"我們也來跟他進行協商主委你也沒辦法 你也無可奈何啦感謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝委員好 謝謝我們林俊憲"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時11分）感謝主席，本席邀請NCC代主委。"],["主席：請陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員早。"],["林委員俊憲：主委早。主委，在這次的預算審查，NCC算是重災戶啦！我大概看了一下，在我們交通委員會就屬數發部跟NCC算是最慘的，NCC公務預算的業務費被刪除50%，被刪50%喔！又被凍結10%，所以你大概有60%的錢不能用。我常講，任何一個個人或者家庭，如果收入被減少50%、60%，你的生活絕對會受到影響。業務費原本編列七千多萬，被刪凍後大概還剩下多少？原本編列七千多萬，現在可以用的錢大概剩下3,354萬，我幫你算出來了，NCC現在可以用的錢剩3,354萬。主委，這個業務費是不是要拿來付房租？要不要？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：要，土地租金二千五百多萬。"],["林委員俊憲：NCC的辦公室是跟人家租的，NCC租房子要不要付錢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：要。"],["林委員俊憲：要啦，當然要付租金嘛！請問NCC的辦公室租金一年多少錢？2,562萬，我都幫你查出來了，你目前可以用的錢有3,354萬，其中房租就付掉76%，也就是有2,562萬要付房租，所以大概剩下不到800萬！NCC公務預算的業務費一個月大概花多少錢？我去調了你們已經花掉的數據來看，一個月差不多要花400萬啦，所以剩下將近800萬，也就是你目前可用的公務預算扣掉房租剩下800萬，這個月已經用掉400萬，接下來是4月，我看你剩下的錢可能4月用完就沒錢了！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，沒錯，所以我們比較傷腦筋，對於這二千五百多萬的租金，我們想辦法要跟地主來協商看看能不能延後支付。"],["林委員俊憲：叫房東晚一點收房租喔？房東會願意嗎？為什麼我們的政治衝突要損害到人民的權益？那是他的房子啊，他如果不願意出租了，進而要趕你們呢？因為你們沒有按時繳房租是違約耶！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["林委員俊憲：好，就算凍結的10%給你們解凍，多了七百五十幾萬而已啦，大概也撐不到兩個月啦，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，因為剛剛委員也有提到，一個月平均要花費四百多萬。"],["林委員俊憲：預算被刪掉50%、凍結10%，如果沒有解凍，4月用完可能就沒錢；就算有解凍，也撐不到6月，差不多6月啦！","我看了一下去年你們NCC的業務中比較多跟民眾有關係的，像NCC北區處有一個民眾臨櫃服務櫃臺，一年臨櫃服務案件有7,687件；2024年新的認證，就是民眾送來認證的有7,747件；另外，從國外進口的一些相關器材也需要NCC比對簽審後蓋章才能通關，這個大家知道吧，NCC如果沒有去檢查，海關是不放行的，因為那個射頻器材必須要NCC認證檢驗，這個部分去年一年就有2萬5,600件啊！另外還有一個跟民眾權益有關係的，就是建築物電信設備的審查和審驗，這部分有將近3萬件，我們一般蓋房子，也就是你的住家、你的大樓，如果有電信設備，都是需要NCC來審查和審驗的，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：如果NCC在4月以後沒有辦法運作，這些就會影響到人民的權益了。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒錯，也跟委員報告，所謂的通訊監理系統是個電腦系統，電腦系統所使用的水電費如果無法支付，電腦系統掛掉，大概整個運作都會停擺。"],["林委員俊憲：這樣也沒辦法啊！沒關係啦，反正黃國昌委員說要刪到讓民眾有感，NCC的部分民眾絕對有感啦！","再來，現在NCC還有個問題，就是你們的委員人數不夠無法開會，這個絕對是法定總額，不用說啦，因為人數未達法定總額過半數，現在不能開會，我幫你調查了一下，到今（2025）年6月底前（距離現在還剩二個多月），廣電媒體執照到期要申請換新照，其中廣播業者有25張、無線電視事業有4張、衛星廣播電視業者有9張，現在這些都不能換照了，到今年6月就期滿了，我有沒有算錯？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有錯，37家事業、38張照，沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：這些都不能換照，不能換照就處於在違法的狀態下營業，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，從某個角度來看是這樣。"],["林委員俊憲：對嘛！法律條文規定期限到了就要換照，沒有換照就是違法營業，但並不是業者不去申請換照，而是NCC不能審查，所以有業者去法院提告聲請「定暫時狀態處分」，我們有業者已經跑去提告了，表示並非他不換照，而是你們NCC不能審，因為你們沒有委員，提告的結果是業者敗訴，理由是NCC不能審是政治問題，司法權不能介入，所以現在問題又回歸到原點，因為不能換照，所以是違法狀態下繼續營業，光6月就有三十幾家，25家廣播業者、4家無線電視事業及9家衛星廣播電視事業，主委，能不能給他罰款？可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這個我們需要……"],["林委員俊憲：因為他在違法狀態下營業嘛！我不能給你撤照，那我給你罰錢，我們的規定、原條文的規定是這樣的，如果沒有換照而繼續營業，我就開罰，對不對？屢罰不聽就予以撤照。好，現在這樣要不要罰錢？我聽說NCC舉辦了一個專家會議，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，2月20號。"],["林委員俊憲：2月20號，請了四個專家來解釋在這種狀態下能不能罰款，很不幸的，四個專家有四個意見，四個看法都不一樣，你要請專家之前應該私底下先問一下，怎麼會找四位？表示你這個會議是開真的，沒有事先串通，所以四位專家的會議做出了四項結論，第一個說是因為你們的委員人數不足，所以不能罰；第二個說業者未經許可的營業行為可以進行裁罰，但是因為業者在合法期間有提出，有信賴保護原則，所以你不能罰；第三個主張是業者雖在合法期間提出換照申請，但不等同於必然取得新執照，所以不能主張信賴保護原則，這個意思是可以罰啦，也有覺得可以罰的啦；第四個的主張更明確，沒有自行決定是否裁罰的裁量空間，就是要罰啦。請問現在怎麼辦？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為是處於這種灰色地帶，我們內部還在討論。"],["林委員俊憲：專家會議的四種意見，你們內部怎麼討論？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是說我們……"],["林委員俊憲：你下次找專家先問一下他的意見，找四個意見一樣的來開，這樣你才有根據，不然你怎麼開？人家這四個專家真的就做出四項決議。好，那能不能廢止執照？因為現在沒有辦法審嘛，業者也會擔心會不會被你撤照？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有辦法。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有辦法，業者也不用擔心，也不能撤照啦。因為管頻道、頻率的是數發部，不是NCC，除非NCC廢照，數發部才會把無線電頻率收回去，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["林委員俊憲：程序上是這樣。那你NCC現在不會廢照，即便你要廢照，委員人數也不夠，你要廢照也不行啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，依照組織法第九條第二項第五款是沒有辦法廢的。"],["林委員俊憲：所以NCC現在就處於一個最標準的完全癱瘓的狀態，這個實在是很可悲。我剛剛講的，現在每一年有幾萬件，去年海關通行案件有兩萬五千多件，現在卡在海關射頻沒有認證的，這些是沒有錢處理。然後新的產品認證的去年有7,700件，民眾到櫃臺直接申請服務的有七千六百多件，然後各大樓住家房屋電信設備的審驗審查，一年有大概3萬件，你的業務費再撐一、兩個月就沒錢了，我看接下來人民就會真的感受到了，預算這樣刪真的是會影響到民眾的權利。來，主委，你有什麼看法？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：確實跟委員報告的，因為我們這些通傳系統、監理系統、海關認證系統都是用電腦化作業，電腦化會使用到水電費、通訊費跟海關之間的網路連線，那些預算都沒有的情況之下，如果通傳的電腦系統都停止運作的話，這方面的業務全部都會停擺。"],["林委員俊憲：你拜託房東慢一點來收房租，房東有答應嗎？沒有的話，不然來拜託我們主席幫忙你拜託一下，我們林國成委員去替你們說一下，請房東慢一點收。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們有在跟他進行協商。"],["林委員俊憲：主委，你也沒辦法，你也無可奈何啦！好，感謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員。在這裡跟委員會報告，稍等一下陳雪生委員質詢完畢以後，我們就接著休息10分鐘。","現在請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}