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MANGA"},{"start":1193.439,"end":1193.559,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":1364.919,"end":1365.978,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1439.36,"end":1443.404,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1581.447,"end":1598.895,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":1771.9,"end":1773.965,"text":"主席"},{"start":1807.54,"end":1830.897,"text":"好,我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況．並備質詢宣讀完畢好,我們本日議程排定的是國家發展委員會的業務報告我們現在就請國家發展委員會劉靜卿主委來做報告我們在此也恭喜主委"},{"start":1842.739,"end":1862.725,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好謝謝各位給我們機會來報告我們國安會的業務發展以及我們打算怎麼去進行未來的四年的執政首先報告的是總體經濟情勢目前我們看下來今年經濟的成長會在3.5%以上會優於去年的1.31%"},{"start":1867.967,"end":1890.857,"text":"那整個我們中環情勢裡面看到一些機會也看到一些要密切注意的風險那我們會密切觀察跟及時因應那整個經濟的形成3.5怎麼保障一定做得到跟未來怎麼樣更好來自於幾個部位那政府的投資的部分已經定型了"},{"start":1891.677,"end":1909.448,"text":"那有三個地方會影響我們下半年的經濟發展第一個是出口第二個是資本的形成第三個是民間消費那出口的部分呢因為AI正在大幅的崛起從1到4月的外銷情形來看整體的出口會變得非常的好那我們也預估在採購經理人指數"},{"start":1911.169,"end":1940.033,"text":"也會從4949%突破到NT50%進入擴張期所以下半年的整體會是不錯但是有幾個我們必須注意到的比如說匯率對我們很多傳統產業的影響這些我們都會再密切注意資本的形成的部分在AI半導體的投資會繼續加強第二個在數位跟淨零的部分的投資也會增加這個部分也會有機會往上走再來是我們現在看到的是零售餐飲的"},{"start":1941.253,"end":1967.939,"text":"整個民營消費的數字也是非常的還不錯那股市的活絡也造成這個財務效應那我們當然會密切觀察電價上漲會不會有影響我們現在進行每個月的CPI的監測那這樣的一個結果其實在過去10年來講3.5以上各位可以看到這上面的數字只有在14年跟21年有高過3.5所以相較過去來講今年算是一個比較好的一年"},{"start":1968.439,"end":1987.619,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":1988.263,"end":2007.771,"text":"我們從整個達到國家希望工程、民主和平、創新繁榮與公益永續我們希望在三個月內做好我們的國家發展計畫未來四年的發展將會由創新經濟、均衡台灣、效能政府為基礎的主軸發展"},{"start":2009.171,"end":2027.226,"text":"提宗我們會大量的用數位化跟效率革新的改善來往這條路上邁進那細節的部分在下一頁我會開始進行說明創新經濟那國家發展計畫是我們最重要的發展那這個發展計畫將會有五個重點形成我們的策略"},{"start":2028.567,"end":2052.003,"text":"從總統的政見到我們總理經濟的目標就是我們會制定每一年的成長率跟人均GDP、失業率等等的經濟指標同時我們會持續觀測瞭解國際發展趨勢跟競爭的趨勢然後再加上國內的輿情像譬如說我們看到財富的平均或者是居住"},{"start":2052.643,"end":2075.283,"text":"的問題那這些我們會整個參雜進來再加上各部會的想法跟意見形成國家策略然後呢依據策略展開我們的國家計畫好那大概是8月份我們會完成那另外一個部分呢就會進入到這個經濟的發展創新經濟怎麼做我們會打造信賴無產業成立台灣他太靠"},{"start":2075.883,"end":2076.363,"text":"發言委員會"},{"start":2102.33,"end":2121.24,"text":"主要兩件事情第一個是我們所有的企業發展我們看起來半導體跟AI雙核心這兩個產業會帶動台灣高速的成長那這兩個高速成長我們必須把它紮住然後呢利用AI跟半導體的能力去帶動其他產業的發展所以呢我們也因此就可以讓這個產業做得比較好一點那台灣Tech Hub呢將會在"},{"start":2124.241,"end":2133.797,"text":"﹚"},{"start":2135.9,"end":2149.269,"text":"為什麼我們會從AI半導體的角度來看的話 這上面我們有一個分析我們可以看得到晶圓代工我們台灣已經是世界第一 佔全球的產值的65%我們的封測佔了53% 已經穩穩的佔在全球最領先的位置"},{"start":2156.934,"end":2174.944,"text":"但是呢,我們在IC設計、半導體的設備跟半導體的材料上面還有很大的增長空間那為了發展這一部分呢,將這個地方將是我們要努力的方向,我們希望能讓產值翻倍那尤其設備我希望有機會我們要做翻三倍,所以這些都會納入我們未來國家發展計畫"},{"start":2177.325,"end":2202.206,"text":"那這幾個翻倍的計畫出來會帶動比較多的高薪就業人口數那高薪就業人口數增加之後稅收會增加也可以進行更進一步的這個福利的分配那所得的再分配那這樣的話可以造福到比較低階的人那另外就是在AI的部分我們可以看到這條是AI的"},{"start":2202.907,"end":2205.369,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2227.004,"end":2250.329,"text":"我們希望從AI的兩個方向去發展我們從晶圓代工所產生的CHIP到IC的設計到散熱都有一定的領先地位IC的部分我們剛剛有提到我們會再加強的去做半導體的推估第二個部分是研究的部分研究的部分是台灣過去比較弱的地方所以造成台灣一直是技術的路超過"},{"start":2251.169,"end":2251.269,"text":"臺灣大學"},{"start":2270.979,"end":2286.408,"text":"AI的下一步發展也會進我們的TechHub還有次世代的這個這個半導體會進TechHub然後呢量子電腦進TechHub所以它會整個整合在一起那另外我們在拉第二條研究的發展路線會是跟中央研究院的進一步的合作"},{"start":2287.992,"end":2313.005,"text":"另外一個部分,所以我們可以把源頭拉高,創造更多的產業附加價值,帶動更多的高薪就業機會我個人認為台灣現在的就業率已經很低了,我們要創造的是高薪的就業機會讓大家有更多的高薪工作機會右邊的部分是我們未來要重點發展的一個部分,就是整個AI運用的價值"},{"start":2313.965,"end":2333.022,"text":"整個AI Server的發展它是一條曲線目前來講它的重點在於研究跟實驗的部分那已經衝出一個相當的量了下一波要有更高的量就是在應用面那應用面的部分我們目前台灣在這個部分我們只有1%可是整個全球的市場大概有3.97兆"},{"start":2334.784,"end":2357.389,"text":"我們希望從這3.97兆去擴大我們的佔有率讓台灣可以在AI的世界裡面站穩亞洲的核心那這個部分的培養會搭配我後面說的服務業的培養因為我們希望這個地方台灣我們檢核台灣硬體的部分我們是世界領先的位置但是在軟體的部分我們是比較中間偏後的位置"},{"start":2358.529,"end":2379.525,"text":"簡單的一個數字說明台灣在2021年我們在這個資訊軟體服務業的GDP佔比大概是1.2但是美國是4.79對岸的中國是3.8所以我們這個地方的發展必須要翻倍的往上走那這個翻倍往上走有在於人才的部分的整理那我後面會進一步的說明"},{"start":2380.845,"end":2408.562,"text":"另外一個部分我們要打造明星產業變成我們的復國群山我們現在其實有很好的經驗代工是復國群山因為只要鍛煉就鍛煉了但是各位看一下這個圖我們在SERP部分佔了90%IC封裝我們佔了53%另外我們拉出三個產業這幾個產業都有15%以上的全球市佔率我們希望把這些產業拉到30%"},{"start":2410.003,"end":2432.498,"text":"的全球市佔率那這樣的話呢我們會有五座山、六座山達到全球市佔超過30%就足以影響全球供應鏈那塑造台灣更重要的全球經濟地位跟影響力那這幾個重點會讓我們更穩固更有未來那這裡也會帶動更多的高薪就業機會那我們希望從這裡去發展"},{"start":2434.159,"end":2458.346,"text":"另外為了照顧產業的平衡發展我們還是希望能夠注意到所有的人民服務業我們可以看到左邊的圖62%的就業人口在這個地方我們不重視是不行的可是如果我們環顧製造業跟服務業來講製造業很明顯的他在全球的影響力是明顯的出來了但是服務業的全球影響力還有待提升我們為了AI的發展我們會先拉我們這邊右邊的資訊服務業"},{"start":2464.107,"end":2481.652,"text":"這個資訊服務業現在我們最大的困難是人才的培育所以它會結合我們國家會的人才政策也就是說我們在未來的人才上面我們必須去主動積極的去找不是現在是著重於法令的鬆綁那我們將來會是主動的積極的去獵財到美國去獵財到美國比較先進我們去獵財到歐洲去獵財我們希望吸引更多人進來那這樣的話可以解決我們短期資訊服務業AI人才的缺口"},{"start":2493.536,"end":2509.428,"text":"那硬體的缺口是現在國內目前正在做的部分那加起來之後就會讓我們整個在解決方案上面有機會大幅的提升那另外在左邊的部分是比較稍微附加價值或成長比較低的這個服務業"},{"start":2511.63,"end":2540.521,"text":"那這幾個服務業呢我們打算是透過協助兩件事第一個透過我們臺灣比較強的AI智慧化讓數位化讓他們的營運效率跟他的市場接觸就是通路策略會做得比較好之外更有競爭力之外我們會鼓勵他們進行產業控股然後呢結合他的力量因為要走出世界的話他需要比較大的經濟規模比較容易走出去那我們希望透過這樣的方式控股的方式因為控股的架構"},{"start":2541.181,"end":2541.361,"text":"獲得獲得"},{"start":2557.014,"end":2557.394,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":2584.775,"end":2612.51,"text":"那翻倍的話呢這不是資金到位的問題而是一個生態系的問題這個生態系就是說資金進來引進來之後呢他必須要有比較優質的投資標的第二個要足夠的投資標的否則錢進來沒有那麼多的標的那我們就變成必須把這三個循環做出來就第一個讓投資標的增加讓投資標的增加這也會利用台灣tech hub去做台灣tech hub我們參考的香港tech hub或者是"},{"start":2613.15,"end":2613.972,"text":"在學校重新教育創業過程"},{"start":2628.59,"end":2651.194,"text":"他是一個end-to-end的不是只教你怎麼研發還教你怎麼樣去經營那第二個部分是鼓勵博士後把博士後研究拿出來做那這幾個會再加上我們成熟企業的創新會一起進來那當然我們還是會去吸引國外尤其是比較優秀在美國的華人回到台灣來那我們打算利用這樣的方式呢"},{"start":2651.674,"end":2658.521,"text":"獲得資金進來,目前我們是有一個還不錯的規劃應該是沒有問題所以這個生態系建立起來之後台灣的整個活絡度就會比例成翻倍而且是每年翻倍"},{"start":2677.058,"end":2700.144,"text":"但是不管怎麼樣沒有足夠的人是沒有用的所以我們將來會從過去法令鬆綁我們開放金卡之外我們會再進一步做人才的吸引再進一步的去做人才的獵取為什麼呢?因為我們過去的研究我在民間的時候研究我們大概未來20年50年都是一個人才戰爭全球的認定都是一樣的"},{"start":2703.965,"end":2731.537,"text":"那在這個少子化的過程裡面我們必須解決短期的問題跟長期的問題短期的問題是我們尖端人才必須被補足那尖端人才必須要補足呢它有兩種一種是我們標定的我們前面所提的幾個產業我們現在正在做統計已經外面單位在幫我們做人才需求統計我們會找出需求與供給的差異之後我們會跟企業合作一起到美國去攬財去找這些人進來那我在外商待過我認為機會很大"},{"start":2733.339,"end":2754.701,"text":"為什麼?因為在外商裁員的話呢都是黃皮膚的先裁再裁黑皮膚再裁那個所以我在過去IBM也好在PWC也好我們看到的是這樣所以呢很多人會遇到玻璃天花板很多人遇到父母要身體的問題那我相信願意回來的人是不少但是我得解決他的生態系生態系就是他小孩的就學問題"},{"start":2756.222,"end":2757.443,"text":"國際基金主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2785.825,"end":2808.585,"text":"這樣一個環境來做的話會讓我們的人才可以在比較短的時間補足而且是一個對的缺口的補足在解決我們產業創新跟我們產業發展跟所需要的人才跟生態系的問題之後我們還需要到均衡台灣讓各地的希望都存在我們也要發展地方的特色"},{"start":2810.046,"end":2827.943,"text":"所以我們會持續我們在地方創生的運作但地方創生的運作我們會希望做出我們現在過去做得不錯我們在各個地方都有非常多的創生的這個成功案例那這些成功案例下一步我們希望整合成功案例"},{"start":2828.183,"end":2845.998,"text":"﹚"},{"start":2846.358,"end":2865.079,"text":"第二部分是團結,我們會把地方各個有利因素整合在一起,帶動各方面,這樣的話就可以有比較好的效果。我們會先找兩個點做實驗,成功之後我們會開始推廣到各個地方去,讓我們的地方再生有更一步的不一樣。"},{"start":2868.642,"end":2892.067,"text":"最後是在離島的部分我們會持續發展從離島的水電系統海洋的文化那我們特別會發展的一部分就是在數位醫療的部分跟離島醫療的部分那我們其實現在每一年有增加100位公費生在西醫的部分50位公費生是在亞裔的部分那這些人將來都要進到偏遠地區"},{"start":2892.927,"end":2908.49,"text":"．"},{"start":2908.85,"end":2928.806,"text":"發展它的北核心、中核心、南核心的計畫從歷史的文化、休閒區到大學城那大學城的部分已經交由中興大學開始在進行的那這個另外我們在歷史文化區裡面現在是以創生跟創新的園區為主那另外接下來就要把休閒生活區做進一步的整理"},{"start":2929.326,"end":2959.326,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":2959.446,"end":2981.384,"text":"那這個數位績效管理系統將來會讓我們可以隨時調出來每一個鄉鎮甚至我們立委的選區我們到底做了什麼事答應什麼事那我們執行的進度怎麼樣我們希望把這個系統盡快的規劃與整理起來然後呢讓總統院長到各個地方都能夠隨時回應那這個確保我們的績效會做得比較好一點"},{"start":2982.285,"end":3011.549,"text":"那這些看板呢也會到時候會讓各個單位來做改善那另外就是在我們接收的國家檔案局我們今年會做檔案的數位智能服務那另外呢我們正在正在規劃一個今年年底會完工明年會搬進去的一個首座國家檔案館那這個檔案館會有很多的數位展跟數位的活動跟服務那也結合地方那到時候呢"},{"start":3012.849,"end":3040.379,"text":"等比較完整的時候我們會進一步說明另外還有一個就是法規要鬆綁協助經商環境的改善這個地方我們會有內外的資訊的input從歐美的部分到我們內部的部分還有到立法院的要求我們會一起來盡量去讓整個產業活動能夠比較自由一點讓它比較活絡一點"},{"start":3041.579,"end":3068.361,"text":"那最後我們在社會化的部分我們也在規劃一個效能政府開放政府的這個目標這是總統政見人民做主開放政府那我們希望我們已經先徵詢了民間42個提案那接下來我們已經找了顧問公司研究提出了幾個項目可以做進行的第一個是資料的開放open data第二個是原住民數位不平等領域的發"},{"start":3069.242,"end":3088.098,"text":"的部分我們要去解決公共參與領域發展結合民進提案這幾個方案我們會做一個整合這兩個整合之後呢我們接下來會用兩兩個月的時間去整理出我們未來在這個領域的推動方案讓我們的開放政府走得更先進更得到人民的認同"},{"start":3090.135,"end":3105.57,"text":"另外公共建設部分我們會持續加速的支持各個地方的發展然後我們會在公建上面的審核我們會提升這個效率也讓他能夠盡量滿足大家的需求"},{"start":3106.571,"end":3128.776,"text":"所以結合下來我們從經濟的發展看起來是進入活絡的階段出口看起來也會進入比較活絡的階段臺灣應該會有一個比較好的的未來那第二個事情在未來經濟發展上面我也報告了我們打算怎麼做怎麼發展那我們希望立院跟行政院的通力合作"},{"start":3129.256,"end":3129.376,"text":"報告完畢"},{"start":3147.967,"end":3176.378,"text":"好 謝謝我們主委詳時的報告那現在我們要進行詢答委員詢答前我們依照慣例主席台做幾項的宣告每位委員發言的時間6分鐘必要的時候加1分鐘非本委員會4分鐘那我們10點半截止登記我們現在就請登記第一位的邱毅英委員召委請做詢答"},{"start":3186.026,"end":3194.291,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請一下我們劉主委我們請主委你站起來然後敬禮然後回到發言台"},{"start":3201.762,"end":3219.17,"text":"主委長,我想今天您花了大概24分鐘的時間做了一個非常詳盡然後也跟過去我們看到的國發會的報告是不太一樣的那我大概看了一下您花了其實相當多的篇幅在講到所謂的IC設計跟這個產業鏈供應等等的問題"},{"start":3224.272,"end":3240.638,"text":"我相信您來自業界您花了這麼多的時間在這些篇幅上面這未來是不是就是您國發會您所領導的國發會裡頭最重要或者是第一項要全力去推動的業務是不是是的好"},{"start":3244.067,"end":3268.062,"text":"來,主委請看一下Cabutex這個會在6月4日到6月7日舉辦今年舉辦大概應該會是有史以來這個CEO最多的一屆而且也是最大咖的一屆包括這個超委的董事長蘇豐茲然後包括Intel的這個紀辛格包括這個黃榮勳、輝達的黃榮勳包括這個ARM的這個Hus"},{"start":3272.645,"end":3290.016,"text":"等等這麼多的這個AI的巨頭、CEO齊聚在臺灣那剛剛您的報告裡頭其實也講得非常的清楚這個AI伺服器的產業在全球的市場裡頭臺灣扮演一個非常重要的角色"},{"start":3290.896,"end":3317.755,"text":"根據經濟部發表的資料臺灣的AI伺服器的製造是佔全球的90%左右所有的這包括美系的這些伺服器的品牌全部都是依賴臺灣的代工 對不對所以這個產業對臺灣來講它不只是經濟發展的命脈我覺得它也擔負了很重要的"},{"start":3318.957,"end":3328.568,"text":"國安發展的這樣的一個責任主委您同意我的看法嗎?完全同意好 來主委我想再請教您"},{"start":3330.439,"end":3355.594,"text":"這個是歐洲商會在大概一個多月前吧他們的專欄裡頭提出現在在立法院裡頭呢因為有國民黨跟民眾黨兩個黨推出的藐視國會罪未來如果外商公司不配合立法院的調查或是有任何觸怒立委的行為都會有這樣的一個風險存在都會有藐視國會的風險存在好"},{"start":3360.116,"end":3384.915,"text":"剛剛我們講到了這麼多的AI設計這麼多的伺服器這麼多的這個IC產業鏈這不只是台灣的經濟命脈也是台灣的國安命脈根據我們前天5月28日通過的條文裡頭第48條法人、人民團體或社會上有關係人員違反本法規定的時候與立法院調閱文件資料及檔案時"},{"start":3385.996,"end":3406.661,"text":"遭拒絕拖延或隱匿不提供者：立法院院會可以處以新台幣1萬元以上到10萬元以下罰還並按次處罰到改正為止甚至第59條還規定聽證人員不得拒絕：無正當理由缺席拒絕表達意見、拒絕證言、拒絕提供資料者"},{"start":3407.481,"end":3432.715,"text":"按次處罰這是5月28日通過的條文嘛主委您應該也看到了嘛對不對是的好我請教你如果照這個條文通過剛剛我們講的那些IC設計的產業業者如果立法院的委員要求他提供資料他能不能不提供可不可以"},{"start":3434.139,"end":3460.229,"text":"按照這個條文來看好像是不能如果我要求回答提供他的產品研發流程他的高科技製程流程能不能不提供從這個條文來看不能台積電能不能不提供目前看是不能營業機密、台積電的全球佈局聯發科的全球佈局、文貿的全球佈局日月光的全球佈局"},{"start":3461.414,"end":3475.183,"text":"能不能不提供?目前看是不能如果主委您講到依照這個法令它不能不提供的話那會造成什麼影響?你可以預估嗎?國發會你們一天到晚在預估這個我現在下一個問題是經濟的成長景氣燈號要變成這個黃紅燈了越來越熱"},{"start":3484.735,"end":3484.755,"text":"來 諸位"},{"start":3511.098,"end":3522.512,"text":"謝謝委員 這個問題的確是必須要去注意的那我自己私底下有去問一些廠商那主要關鍵我個人認為因為大家對整個訊息不夠明確"},{"start":3526.537,"end":3541.204,"text":"大家因為越模糊越緊越擔心嘛從來沒有過的第一次發生也會擔心所以多多少少因為不明確大家是有很擔心的地方這是的確有那至於會不會影響產業可能還要再多觀察那我的看法是說如果將來有實施細則或更明確的說明的時候那如果內容是讓廠商覺得可以適宜的話"},{"start":3555.111,"end":3557.112,"text":"主委 這沒有實施細則啊 如果我現在 我現在覺得你對我的回答我不滿意啊"},{"start":3574.073,"end":3599.008,"text":"對不對我現在覺得您的回答是在呼嚨啊你還要我提供你實施細則你本來就應該自己準備好了還要提供什麼實施細則我隨時告你藐視國會啊這就是這一條法令啊立法委員要人家的全球布局幹嘛立法委員要人家的機密製程的機密幹嘛甚至立法委員還可以要求國防部公布飛彈部署的機密要這些東西幹嘛幫誰要的"},{"start":3602.475,"end":3629.683,"text":"這些東西拿出去以後台灣會產生一個什麼樣的重大危機這是這一條法令最大的問題所在所以您擔任國發會的主委其實您應該要更清楚的去了解甚至透過各種不同的管道在跟這些產業座談的時候讓他們知道這樣的一個法令"},{"start":3630.991,"end":3660.1,"text":"其實是重大危害台灣的民主跟危害台灣的國家安全甚至危害台灣的投資環境您作為一個國家發展的重要的部會首長您應該要更清楚的了解我剛剛講你藐視國會那是反串喔你不要以為我真的認為你是藐視國會喔我怕你這個今天出來炸到會被我嚇到我是很清楚告訴你那個是反串喔但是你不要以為這不會發生啊"},{"start":3661.707,"end":3671.616,"text":"這未來就是真真實實會在立法院上演啦這些東西我們如果不能盡其所能的保護好的話我們就是開了一個大洞讓"},{"start":3674.233,"end":3697.709,"text":"想要透過這樣的一個產業鏈入侵台灣的人很順理成章甚至很輕而易舉的就來攻破台灣所有的IC產業鏈攻破台灣所有的優勢這個是國發會未來要密切密切注意的一個地方確保投資環境的安全確保台灣的產業鏈的永續發展確保台灣在IC設計產業上面的優勢"},{"start":3704.194,"end":3720.109,"text":"這個不只是您今天講的這個報告裡面這個完全未來會是您在所有推動的政策上面的重中之重我們一起共同勉勵好不好主委是謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝來請下來謝謝然後再進個領謝謝然後再回座"},{"start":3729.569,"end":3745.315,"text":"謝謝來接下來我們請第二位鄭正前委員請做詢答謝謝主席我想請一下劉主委我們再請劉主委請上發言台"},{"start":3749.056,"end":3775.224,"text":"委員長昨天好,看到你剛剛花了二十幾分鐘在做一個報告我在想說裡面有幾個重要的問題其中我想先問一個狀態其實它在你報告裡面沒有提到的是因為你昨天特別提到說你不排斥重啟核電這件事情你可以把這個部分再把它說清楚一下你當時提到了三個原則在怎麼樣的情況之下的時候我們可以重啟核電或者是核電演繹,請一併說明"},{"start":3781.402,"end":3805.602,"text":"我説明一下其實媒體有點誤解我的三原則主要是在看從當時我的三原則談的是產業的角度其實我談兩個一個我對我們看怎麼看核電我先講產業的角度我來自產業產業其實要一個是安全穩定的供電那它其實這個電是來自於哪一種電其實對企業而言其實坦白講不是重點"},{"start":3807.193,"end":3834.641,"text":"那只要電夠是 所以說電要夠嘛 對不對你講到三原則第一個電要夠嘛 對不對然後第二個狀態的時候你特別提到說低碳的電要夠 對不對那第三個部分你提到了2050淨林目標當中的途徑的問題是的 對不對所以你講到一個重點的部分就是電要夠所以說在電不夠的情況之下的時候呢你覺得重啟核電或者是讓核電延逸你覺得是可行的 對不對"},{"start":3836.511,"end":3858.28,"text":"我沒有說可行因為他必須有四個條件要做到第一個是法令的條件能不能過關那我的其實我開過會從現在各種法令下來他至少要5年後才有機會那當時河岸會也有提到因為這是法令的問題所有的公務員一定是依法行事"},{"start":3858.86,"end":3873.03,"text":"那第二個部分一定是新政府跟新國會之間的協議那這個協議的結果一定還要再遇到兩個問題社會共識的同意第三個是安全無虞我認為這四個是很重要的"},{"start":3874.251,"end":3892.083,"text":"不過我必須老實講你這個回答已經比前一任蔡政府時代的時候的官員有很大的一個突破我在2020年問園農會主委的時候他光是回答一個核能是低碳的這樣的店的時候他後來就很緊張叫我可不可以以後不要問他這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":3893.304,"end":3894.125,"text":"民進黨的能源政策其實有可能調整的"},{"start":3915.213,"end":3935.327,"text":"目前我們非核家園是沒有改變的沒有改變的我們追求長期一定要做到非核家園那我坦白講2025年之前會做到非核家園嗎我剛講的是長期2025年我不知道我還是要去2025年是明年了主委2025年是明年了不長期啊"},{"start":3936.861,"end":3961.915,"text":"你如果說到比如說在50年之後才要變成復活家園那是另外一個issue重點是民進黨當時之前宣布是2025年復活家園要達成這樣子一個目標所以明年就是2025年了所以你剛剛提到這個問題我特別就是要請教2025年的時候是不是就有可能對於核能研議的部分他就會往前走"},{"start":3965,"end":3991.274,"text":"就我所知道的這個這個會議知道的他很難他要研議要遵循法令那遵循法令的話目前來看的話他目前是法令上是沒辦法做研議所以他要再重啟其實應該是在你剛講四五年之後有可能重啟嘛對不對沒有當時他的講法是這樣就是台電要提出一個報告大概要1.5年然後送核安會之後他的審核在1.5年"},{"start":3992.475,"end":4020.866,"text":"然後三年之後回到臺電以後臺電要依河岸的要求去做修就是就做各種的主委這個部分都沒有問題因為其實我們一個政策的一個轉變它一定有它的時程重點是你剛剛講說長期來看的時候非核家園目標沒有變可是重點是明年就是之前民進黨宣誓的2025年非核家園的一個時間點那2025年這個部分的時候這個政策的目標是不是會改變"},{"start":4022.489,"end":4042.042,"text":"我大概比較用企業的角度外觀來看它按照現在的法令走的話2025年一定是會停下來啦那停下來之後呢未來的5年也很難有所以我比較在意的是那我們能不能給民眾足夠的電那這個電我其實問過台電兩次台電的電力是足夠的"},{"start":4043.322,"end":4064.187,"text":"昨天議員在問台電的時候他就講到說上個月下大雨板橋停電然後台電回答說那不是停電沒有供電不是停電那是異常這台電現在在凹的一個態度我這邊也特別提到我們看一下目前整個的一個發電去年的一個發電的一個情況"},{"start":4066.027,"end":4092.224,"text":"整個毛發電量的部分燃煤、燃油、燃氣三個部分占比高達83.1%您剛剛提到說幾個狀態說實話你提到了一個低碳發電這件低碳的電夠不夠這件事情的時候我覺得這是一個很好的一件因為之前的官員當中也很少提到低碳電的問題我想問一下諸位這裡面有哪些是低碳電"},{"start":4094.602,"end":4107.83,"text":"這裡面再生能源、抽蓄跟核能是低碳的就下面三個是低碳電嘛 對不對上面三個都是高碳電所以目前低碳電當中所佔的比重大概只有16%"},{"start":4109.511,"end":4132.977,"text":"但16.7%大概就這麼多所以台灣如果說低碳電要夠顯然是有很大的努力的一個空間要去做所以我覺得整個能源政策肯定其實是需要去稍微做一些調整你剛剛報告當中你也提到一個AI產業對台灣對全球有非常大的貢獻那事實上台灣目前整個AI產業當中有一個很重要部分就是算力其實是不夠的"},{"start":4133.917,"end":4161.448,"text":"台灣沒有一個真的國家級的一個算力中心目前真的有在國網中心他要去投入3億元台幣要去做提升算力的一個動作主委這樣夠不夠這個我們跟台電開過會他確定是足夠的我得到訊息很確定足夠你說怎麼樣足夠我剛才問說3億元要做一個算力中心夠不夠我現在不再問電的問題對我的瞭解算力中心3億元國網中心去做這樣夠嗎"},{"start":4163.796,"end":4192.523,"text":"這個是跟台電談過的不是 我要問的是三億元要去成立一個算力中心超算中心不是電的問題電的問題是下一個issue三億元要去做一個算力中心顯然是不夠的主委這是一個很簡單的狀態我在問算力中心夠不夠不是電夠不夠電夠不夠是接下來的問題說實話台電跟我講說現在要成立算力中心他其實是非常擔心的所以你這邊也特別提到了"},{"start":4193.143,"end":4215.353,"text":"就是AI它要用的GPU當中比原本傳統的CPU當中至少用電超過10倍所以這個部分顯然是很緊繃的台新聞直接跟我講說臺灣成立算力中心的時候電是一個大的問題所以在北部基本上是不太可能去成立算力中心他直接講新竹以北都不可能"},{"start":4216.918,"end":4225.926,"text":"除非有國家重大建設這台電給我的答案那你現在講說台電跟你講說電完全沒有問題我們要成立算力中心都沒有問題是這樣子嗎這個我可能再去多了解但是好那個對這個部分因為我本來在想說你算是"},{"start":4237.83,"end":4262.375,"text":"民進黨部長當中第一個很清楚去講到對於核能狀態用一個更開放的態度我們覺得這個狀態是肯定的那如果說前提是電要夠的時候台灣現在在發展很多的產業企業已經從數位轉型轉到AI轉型這個情況用電量會大增所以用電的部分肯定也是我們"},{"start":4263.255,"end":4279.672,"text":"關注的一個問題然後我在這邊另外再附帶兩件事都是你報告裡面有提到的就是我們的少子化問題極為嚴重2020年之後就已經出現生不如死的一個情況那這個情況越來越加劇那我們要怎麼樣去"},{"start":4280.333,"end":4289.767,"text":"改變這樣的一個情況我覺得移民政策很重要因為這個部分已經不是我們花錢就可以去解決因為在過去這幾年政府總共花了將近5000億4949億結果沒有什麼成效"},{"start":4296.036,"end":4311.116,"text":"人口還是持續的一個減少所以我們希望說對於整個人口政策的部分有更好的一個相對應的一個部分去做一個調整包括對於整個人才移民的部分包括一個工作延長就是一般"},{"start":4312.057,"end":4327.135,"text":"就是就業工作延長的一個狀態然後如何運用科技的力量取代人力然後如何去面對人口衰退的這個事情我想這些部分是重要的在砸錢要去增加人口顯然已經過去這幾年證明是沒有成效的"},{"start":4327.455,"end":4327.475,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":4360.68,"end":4361.921,"text":"我們接下來請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席楊瓊英發言,邀請主委請主委"},{"start":4380.004,"end":4406.096,"text":"首先恭喜主委因為來自產業界包括我們的經濟部長郭部長來自產業界所以人民滿心的期待尤其你更是AI的教父最近最火熱的就是這個議題所以接下來我們實質討論也就是請教因為郭部長來拜訪的時候他說他上任之後第一個重要的工作就是去盤點"},{"start":4408.357,"end":4425.687,"text":"國內所需要的電量所以我非常的期待他的盤點結果那同樣的議題本席要請教因為我們在媒體上看到您說你不排斥核能因為郭部長也說喔郭部長說核能是乾淨的能源喔"},{"start":4426.767,"end":4453.624,"text":"您說的是不排斥核能當然您也提出必須要有三大原則所以本期要請教您這個不排斥2025年明年那麼我們的王前部長之前他也說了2025年的非核家園是打不到的是跳票了他也非常坦白的直白的說所以本期要請教那你何時能夠盤點這個結果出來"},{"start":4458.49,"end":4473.942,"text":"電的部分的確是郭部長在做我們也會從他這邊一起多協調看一下我這邊是有提供他一些資訊就是AI的運算需要多少電力現在是台電看起來已經納進來評估了"},{"start":4476.103,"end":4480.347,"text":"提醒台電說AI的這個部分或許會是再三層電力的需求,夠嗎?"},{"start":4496.357,"end":4498.38,"text":"三個percent跟三成是落差十倍!"},{"start":4512.15,"end":4519.518,"text":"市主委如果照林市長所說的是3%是3%而已但是現在產業界很緊張欸產業界認為絕對會超過需求電量的3成所以等於是落差10倍對"},{"start":4528.687,"end":4544.985,"text":"委員講的是的確需要去滾動式的調整那30%是指的是運算中心的電力的提升就是它跟傳統的server之間它運算電力要大幅提升可是在一般的非AI的用電它是持平的"},{"start":4545.625,"end":4569.083,"text":"所以你身為國發會的主委我們就理性來討論明明白白產業界需要這樣的電量所以我說我非常的期待我們的郭部長在下個禮拜三他會來做報告我希望他能夠拿出他所謂的國內所需的電力到底是多少但是我們回歸我們的本質也就是產業界認為需要30%"},{"start":4571.084,"end":4599.974,"text":"呃﹗"},{"start":4600.589,"end":4601.689,"text":"如果大家達成共識﹖法令可以修啊"},{"start":4617.917,"end":4634.056,"text":"我們先不要怕困難而是要先去釐清我們的目標到底是什麼你認同這個論點吧我無法否認但是我想委員講的也是謝謝你的無法否認但是您來本席再告訴你就是說"},{"start":4637.284,"end":4652.061,"text":"您曾經說了兩年前發生什麼事我們都很清楚那這個就是一指303的大停電那同時呢您在兩年前也提醒了賴副總統所以說賴副總統他很清楚"},{"start":4652.521,"end":4652.681,"text":"請教主委"},{"start":4669.948,"end":4698.685,"text":"非核家園我們不會討論啊,因為他有安全的問題,我們還是以非核家園為我們的終極目標啦那電的部分其實我從產業的要求我也很快的跟台電做了盤點因為我們必須考慮一個事,如果法令的東西沒有解決,我們一定要讓電足夠那台電的回應是他已經考慮完了,就即使核電停掉他還是有足夠的電所以基本上是台電的當時的跟我的回覆"},{"start":4698.865,"end":4717.626,"text":"現在是三三會理事長林柏鋒先生以及合宿董事長童子賢都是你的好朋友他們呼籲請正式核能發電可行性甚至主張核電成為機載電力你認同嗎?你會把他納入你的考慮嗎?"},{"start":4719.639,"end":4739.012,"text":"我的邏輯很簡單電夠就不需要去考慮這件事電不夠當然就需要考慮再一次請教他們兩位所呼籲的就是核能發電的可能性主張核電成為機載電力會在你的討論項目之內嗎以目前現在台電給我的回覆可能短暫不會因為法令的問題是無法解決的"},{"start":4749.366,"end":4762.478,"text":"以台電告訴你 但是你是國發會 我經常說國發會是什麼呢 是政府的心臟 是政府的頭腦 所以你要好好去檢視 好嗎 是 要好好去檢視 好嗎 謝謝委員 是 好 那你願意要檢視 我們就繼續來討論"},{"start":4766.821,"end":4792.089,"text":"說AI的部分呢,您們預計規劃在北部跟南部籌設AI的生態園區昨天我也接受了論壇但是我告訴社會大眾說招商引資全台第一名的台中請教主委會不會將台中也納入規劃將AI打造成台灣第二座的護國神山山群的地位"},{"start":4794.49,"end":4805.496,"text":"這是一定會的,台中會納入吧?會會會,我們今天有初步討論過台中一定要納入,因為我們台中不管是在地理位置、在我們的教育環境裡頭、交通體系"},{"start":4807.797,"end":4829.18,"text":"人文生活都是一等一的城市而且我們的科研區如火如土在建置同時呢我們的人才在教育方面也非常的充裕豐沛這是最佳的地點所以我謝謝你同意本席所說的台中務必要成為AI的最重要的基地之一"},{"start":4830.026,"end":4849.296,"text":"同意吧?同意,同意好,我們就一起繼續加油那本席再請教喔剛剛呢您說了電夠可是台電告訴我們你們是怎麼說呢?他說電如果不夠的時候他可以隨時增加機組他可以隨時增加機組在我的家鄉我們的火力發電廠我告訴主委我們已經用廢發電我們已經貢獻良多我們的生命誠可貴"},{"start":4859.929,"end":4860.109,"text":"你可以認同吧?"},{"start":4876.174,"end":4892.446,"text":"是的我順便跟委員報告我們會在臺中做一個實驗做一個零碳電的實驗就是用藍綠青在臺中他是零碳的第一個實驗點就會在這個也就是你在討論的綠能但是你沒回答剛剛本席不能加火力發電廠的基礎因為我們議會我們也有一個減碳的法令在那裡"},{"start":4898.738,"end":4899.598,"text":"是的,我會照顧他"},{"start":4917.913,"end":4922.239,"text":"是的所以我們非常的希望在你接軌國際這個淨零碳排的這個目標應該要將自然碳會包括了藍碳、綠碳以及黃碳做整合來作為滾動式的一個檢討是不是是"},{"start":4936.155,"end":4955.024,"text":"所以我們希望AI教護的你能夠好好的去完善了這一些事情最後一個議題我把功課給你也就是少子化的問題我們預估2022年開始內政部列管的一男人數今年首度跌破了10萬而且他們預估2031年會下滑"},{"start":4962.709,"end":4976.046,"text":"所以主委在人口的一個結構變遷衝擊未來的經濟、勞動、財政、教育、醫療等等所以主委本席要給你一個功課也就是你要"},{"start":4977.683,"end":4990.832,"text":"創新有效的方法來因應人口問題所帶來的挑戰所以我希望給你這個功課你詳細去盤點將方案給本席好嗎?好的 謝謝謝謝楊卓英委員接下來我們請李玉琳委員請做詢答 謝謝"},{"start":5009.326,"end":5010.67,"text":"謝謝主席 請留主委我們再請主委"},{"start":5024.648,"end":5035.671,"text":"委員長謝謝大家都知道你來自於產業而且你的擅長在於管理跟數位的轉型尤其是非常熟悉整個產業的趨勢那現在到了我們的國發會我相信國發會也整個對於我們"},{"start":5042.273,"end":5042.613,"text":"好,謝謝委員"},{"start":5066.872,"end":5093.057,"text":"因為主委那個經濟部長郭志輝他特別有提到這個核能是乾淨的能源那這就代表著我們的核能是否要處理的問題是非常的重要那尤其是也提到了這個AI產業還有我們的半導體它是極高的需要的用電所以這個電的夠不夠是非常的重要那剛剛提到主委你一直在講說台電告訴你電夠"},{"start":5095.197,"end":5107.943,"text":"他告訴你電夠,那我們桃園啊一直在停電跳電那這樣子主委你還認為電夠不夠你自己要有個判斷電夠不夠因為你知道產業很多產業都急需要用電的啊"},{"start":5110.379,"end":5127.258,"text":"是不是?電夠不夠?有沒有缺電?是的,我的確我跟產業我們其實常常密切的在接觸那現在因為整個用電的狀況是比兩年前改善非常多這是事實那為什麼桃園停電這麼多次呢?"},{"start":5127.558,"end":5128.878,"text":"主委,您認為有沒有缺點?"},{"start":5151.069,"end":5175.515,"text":"我目前從民間的反應跟臺電的強烈的兩次的...你不要只聽臺電說,你的判斷呢?我目前...你來自產業,你應該很清楚至少產業目前是沒有跟我反應過這件事情產業沒有?沒有,目前沒有所以主委,我們希望你在產業跟民生用電的角度來講我們的能源政策真的是有調整的空間那接下來"},{"start":5176.035,"end":5176.415,"text":"三月21日的國際能源會議"},{"start":5206.535,"end":5227.784,"text":"非核家園是這個目標是永不放棄的目標那這就代表著河山廠的一號二號機仍然在這個今年跟明年就是要除役了在這種情形之下2050年我們的淨零排放這個路徑這個策略是很難達到的因為再生能源就要達到60%以上了你認為做得到嗎"},{"start":5232.073,"end":5257.791,"text":"我如果是從長期的淨零碳排我認為做得到最主要的原因是氫能源的發展會在會越來越快速那現在過渡期我們有藍綠氫可以做過渡那這個藍綠氫的應用不只是我們在電廠應用現在有些企業在做他自己的備用電源也開始啟用了藍綠氫原因是他是一個綠電對他企業在外銷的時候是很有幫助的那他本來就要做備用系統那進行就會解決這個問題"},{"start":5261.374,"end":5261.554,"text":"2016ing"},{"start":5279.406,"end":5279.526,"text":"您認為可能嗎?"},{"start":5309.281,"end":5317.976,"text":"2035年大量運轉是濾清是完全透過水去電解所以你現在是混合清到了2035年的話是濾清濾清的2050年就達到整個是我們純淨的清"},{"start":5323.018,"end":5344.667,"text":"對,他是感激他就能夠解決完全沒有碳的排放而且他對台灣的保障更好因為他原料是水所以他來自水所以是你有信心嗎?我有信心好,我們期待你有的信心因為剩下26年的時間2035年就來這個濾清就開始大量的運轉的話他佔比再生能源就要達到"},{"start":5345.487,"end":5346.608,"text":"在這次我們賴政府他的宣言裡面"},{"start":5361.354,"end":5388.477,"text":"他有講說五大信賴產業五大的信賴產業跟蔡英文之前的六大這個戰略的這個產業這當中的差別性我們看到了我們的賴政府沒有談到這個整個再生能源跟綠能的產業為什麼沒有談到?難道他對這個再生能源綠能已經沒有信心了嗎?還是不是核心的重要的這個產業還是說已經碰到瓶頸了?"},{"start":5389.386,"end":5415.897,"text":"它是已經突破瓶頸了我舉個例子一開始我們做那個水下裝是9個月做一支因為我們的3D的焊接的精度不足、鋼構不足現在都克服了現在一個月可以做到9支所以它已經變成從過去比較艱困的部分已經克服到那個所以它已經是一個比較可以正式要商轉的環境了所以它不是一個等於是它不需要再它的輔導期是已經快結束了"},{"start":5416.584,"end":5434.788,"text":"主委本期在這邊還提醒您因為這個氫氣的發電這個整個技術還沒有夠成熟那我們有需要很多的時間去克服那何時可以正式的這個商轉也不是說你說的時間它就一定能夠商轉都是未定數所以在2050年要達到這個近年的排放這個目標這個願景還是我們要多多考慮是不是能夠將核能的重新納入考量"},{"start":5443.071,"end":5450.45,"text":"這是非常的重要我們也希望你能夠整合各方的意見你可以給我們的現在的賴政府賴總統什麼建議呢"},{"start":5453.225,"end":5477.255,"text":"我其實我給他建議也是在濾清因為我們其實我看了很多的paper過去我們在研究這方面琢磨很深因為以前我有一個永續公司大概有80幾個員工那全球的報告研究下來連那個空中巴士都宣稱他在2035年要做第一台的濾清的飛機那歐洲現在從垃圾車到交通工具都在做實驗包括渡輪"},{"start":5478.255,"end":5503.574,"text":"包括德國福斯特的工業區其實我們去看關西電力的備用電力也都是濾清那台灣現在很多科技也開始在推動輕能源的備用系統就不再是傳統發電機所以這個動作其實是已經進行式了所以它的成熟期會越來越貴都是在進行式當中所以你知道嗎2030年這個貿易出口就是要零碳排放的"},{"start":5504.455,"end":5504.795,"text":"接下來我們請任務委員請做詢答"},{"start":5536.527,"end":5540.775,"text":"好謝謝主席請留主委我們再請留主委"},{"start":5546.826,"end":5568.456,"text":"主委好 主委委員長首先先請教一下 因為立法院的職員刑事法跟刑法修正通過了那我先問一下 這個還是要請主委誠實來回答會不會擔心一些相關的包括一些企業或外商會不會擔心一些機密的一些外洩的問題 如果被立法院調來問的話 會不會"},{"start":5571.668,"end":5598.393,"text":"這個部分是我也有責任要去溝通那之前是有一些人是有電話跟我聯絡因為主要是媒體的訊息不夠完整所以大家對於這個訊息不夠完整的過程中產生了非常多的擔心跟這個影響那的確從條文來看的話它的確會有模糊的空間那我們可能要去多溝通之外當然如果院這邊有一個比較實時細則的話"},{"start":5599.993,"end":5619.54,"text":"他裡面很多都是很模糊的啦,包括可以被調來,包括所有東西,包括那個,那一旦被調來的話,其實他要求你提供資料,其實你也很難去界定到底什麼是能提供,什麼是不能提供,但是你不能提供的時候,其實就面對到相當的壓力。我問的是,因為你來自產業界,也有個待在外商公司待過,他們會不會擔心?他們會不會擔心?"},{"start":5622.362,"end":5643.416,"text":"實話實說即可我只問了少數的啦 那有人是主動打電話給我 他是比較擔心啦 但是我個人的問題我問你一下 如果他們 那另外是他們來的話 會擔心嘛 包括一些機密外線甚至擔心被罰款嘛 對不對 如果沒有照實的來講的話對 因為他們有內部營業秘密的問題啦 他講了就會被開除嘛"},{"start":5643.996,"end":5644.436,"text":"你怎麼溝通?你怎麼溝通?"},{"start":5670.663,"end":5694.677,"text":"我這邊可能會是告訴他就是我們如果遇到的困難的時候我們會盡量來幫忙協調然後第二個釐清當法律定的這樣這麼模糊而沒有一個明確的概念的時候任何都可能企業被調來或者是都有可能被調來的時候不好意思這個我們同仁有另外一個條文涉及營業秘密的部分他是可以那怎麼去做一個界定"},{"start":5695.097,"end":5695.938,"text":"對,我有跟我太太講要有心理準備"},{"start":5724.281,"end":5738.997,"text":"所以我說那不只你而也包括你的處長甚至你的科長科員都可能被叫上來他們問的立委問的問題如果認為你是虛偽陳述你認為你是誠實作答你如果認為你是虛偽陳述的話你有可能就被視為是藐視國會"},{"start":5741.159,"end":5759.017,"text":"這樣不會產生讓很多優秀的公務同仁在來到立法院示立法院為衛徒嗎?讓很多優秀人員是不是會擔心呢?我說這樣的法台灣是有一個完整的質詢制度的我相信99.9%的人沒有人敢輕易的對立委講的話有太多的這個挑戰跟質疑的"},{"start":5760.239,"end":5782.862,"text":"連立委都還可以叫官員直接叫他說叫你上來然後我的就是直接叫你你下去這樣子立委可以用這樣的方式對待官員的都不會被判所謂的藐視國會罪那官員我認為我看過99.9%的都不會你為了要去修理少數一兩位政務官然後把所有的公務員都抓進來我認為這個是會傷害到整個國家的體制的主委認同這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":5785.314,"end":5811.224,"text":"我有義務去化解我們同仁的疑慮啦那我們會法制制我們會把整個條文再看得仔細一點因為之前比較來自媒體現在通過了我們會內部會有一個要不斷的去保護同仁讓同仁有信心的能夠在自己的公職上來幫助台灣繼續往前走同時間也要去跟外界去做溝通啦有些確實會愉悅到的部分將來因為行政委員會再提"},{"start":5812.145,"end":5831.128,"text":"復議回來包括事件也都在提我們希望這樣的法會重新再去這個調整甚至於重新那個我們希望建立一個是長久的穩定的一個制度而不是一個我還是要強調台灣的立法院是有執行權的執行權其實就對於官員造成相當大的壓力我不認為立委對官員沒有辦法"},{"start":5831.488,"end":5847.67,"text":"我舉個例就好啦當年韓國瑜在選市長的時候不斷講說我選上市長我一定會查到很多的弊案幾大弊案幾大弊案上任擔任一年市長的任內查完全部查完之後沒有弊案沒有任何的弊案連送檢調都沒有連送什麼都沒有"},{"start":5848.75,"end":5860.955,"text":"這就是用口頭想像的那個你還是對司法的部分還是至少他的基本的一個權益的部分我們至少對司法還是要基本的一個尊重如果連這個東西能夠去逾越的時候我認為整個體制會整個混亂掉"},{"start":5862.878,"end":5891.406,"text":"好,我回來因為時間非常有限啦,再要請教一下啦,非核家園其實是臺灣追求的一個長遠的一個目標啦,也是院長再次的提醒那其實在未來我們講的R1-100的部分,其實也把核能它其實不視為再生能源啦那所以核能還有很多的包括這個核廢料的處理每個縣市裡面有人要核廢料,包括臺北市自己都不要核廢料新北市也不要核廢料,那包括核安的部分其實有很多的包括執照,包括安全的問題都要解決"},{"start":5892.526,"end":5908.937,"text":"主委怎麼看?其實核電還有很多程序要去做處理,主委怎麼看?核電那個媒體那個是有一點不是我的原意喔那我現在我的看法是很簡單的喔,其實我從企業的角度看那企業要的是一個安全穩定足夠的電源"},{"start":5909.958,"end":5931.42,"text":"目前臺電告訴我的是合電必須依法準時關掉,所以我們沒有理由去思考這件事,那得去思考電夠不夠,目前臺電的回復是電足夠的。我們也請他考慮到AI的變化,他也會放進來,他們現在也修正上調需求。"},{"start":5940.127,"end":5954.1,"text":"台灣最近齁 因為我也講過很多次燃煤大家不要嘛齁 核電當然有些疑慮上面啦 燃煤大家不要因為會空污影響嘛 那燃氣也持續在增加 高雄最近包括興達 這個包括大陵都還持續在增加電廠 全台灣"},{"start":5955.401,"end":5956.322,"text":"我們現在也在做碳捕捉也在做藍綠軍的推動"},{"start":5983.204,"end":6007.598,"text":"所以這些都是未來要發展的一些方向那因為核電還有很多的程序上的處理包括我剛剛講到核飛、核安甚至法令相關的部分都要做處理所以我覺得這一塊包括人民對這一塊也還有很多的疑慮我是覺得這一塊要妥善的思考跟妥善的溝通之後我認為這個才是一個那目前的部分電力確實即使有一些跳電等等的一些問題但是看來都是比較"},{"start":6008.359,"end":6008.68,"text":"是是"},{"start":6020.612,"end":6040.667,"text":"另外我要講的,剛剛講到的南北的部分其實有一個AI產業的生態系包括高雄現在整個在推動5G IoT包括智慧科技創新園區AI的聚落其實也不斷的在往這邊來推動其實也產生很好的一些效果"},{"start":6042.128,"end":6060.69,"text":"包括很重要的電力的部分,高雄持續在增加電力,即使我們有5成的電力是往中往北送,我們還在蓋新的電廠就是在支撐這些半導體產業鏈,支撐這些AI的產業鏈,我們希望主委持續支持高雄,不要讓高雄只有重工業,不要讓高雄只有"},{"start":6061.27,"end":6062.091,"text":"是的 是的"},{"start":6082.148,"end":6099.656,"text":"主委支持嗎?支持啦,速發部明天今天下午會來找我AI的部分在高雄已經開始產生聚落了包括亞灣新創園包括高覽二期等等全部在推動了所以整個包括現在的整個都在亞灣快速的來推動我也希望"},{"start":6100.416,"end":6118.859,"text":"主委,全力來支持AI的整個產業鏈,半導體產業鏈、AI相關的產業鏈,全力的在高雄來深耕發展。讓南北,中委不反對的,至少在這樣的狀況下的時候能夠有很好,因為南部其實已經有很好的一些,不管是生活機能、大眾運輸或者人才的部分其實都具備了。"},{"start":6119.36,"end":6139.189,"text":"﹚"},{"start":6139.549,"end":6139.569,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":6156.067,"end":6156.367,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6176.778,"end":6195.569,"text":"最歡喜你來做主委就是因為你是產業界是真的專業很多的政治話術點到為止就好了我們還是民眾希望以民為本是真正的專業你的特長 謝謝接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做巡討"},{"start":6207.464,"end":6234.186,"text":"主席、國會委員、有請主任委員我們再請主委主委好還不是很熟悉的資訊或是條文就是說我回去再好好看我們立法院執權行使法三讀通過"},{"start":6235.711,"end":6237.793,"text":"第15條 立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予之職權"},{"start":6258.341,"end":6270.292,"text":"然後經過行議法院院會的結議設調查委員會或是委員會的結議設專案小組然後調查委員或調查專案小組"},{"start":6272.335,"end":6297.137,"text":"得要求有關機關或特定案件事項提供參考的資料要求有關人員出席他有一定的程序有一定的條件而是要立法院有關的職遣憲法而且是這樣憲法賦予的職遣不是隨便可以一定是跟有關商郭傑的可能性"},{"start":6298.078,"end":6325.836,"text":"的彩會：台積電沒有：剛才有委員提的那些案例不會有：就沒有：所以立法院行使調查前：不得一夜調查的目的事項與範圍還要尊重相關的這些規定：所以他都有一些非常明確的：而且：主委這些條文不是國民黨民眾黨所創的："},{"start":6328.547,"end":6355.773,"text":"早期的我們的顧立雄國防部部長也提過現在的外交部部長林佳龍他也提過所以這個部分我知道主委已經一定沒有時間看這個啦所以不要輕易的回應啦我們回去再好好看向西委陳述向西委陳述"},{"start":6357.052,"end":6369.604,"text":"我先談這個了。調查委員或調查專案小組為行使調查權得要求朝政府機關部隊法人 這個條文是尤梅尼委員、林佳龍委員過去的條文"},{"start":6370.749,"end":6389.603,"text":"所以這個部分他都有一個非常嚴謹的不會隨便侵犯到人民的權利如果侵犯到人民的權利他也可以提出相關的另外一個相關的途徑所以這個都有另外就是"},{"start":6390.848,"end":6408.617,"text":"特別提到剛才賴委員提到稀微陳述稀微陳述在我們的中華民國刑法裡面就有什麼叫稀微陳述公務員本來就不能稀微陳述我相信我們的公務員都不會我是30年的公務員"},{"start":6410.757,"end":6433.604,"text":"來到立法院也很多為第4屆了我們的公務員99%甚至100%都不會稀微陳述只有極少數的政務官也很少啦所以會不會碰到這種事情也真的很少然後促進轉型正義條例也有啊對機關團體啊"},{"start":6437.826,"end":6453.152,"text":"對像那個救國團啊﹖對不對﹖一樣可以啊﹖所以都有啊﹖也不能稀微陳述啊﹖這是對人民都有啊﹖促進轉型這條例有啊﹖我們當初也沒有說怎麼樣啊﹖所以這個部分"},{"start":6454.721,"end":6456.642,"text":"我們就是要去避免尤其是我們的總統"},{"start":6482.26,"end":6504.931,"text":"你沒有機會,我們是很少有機會幾乎沒有機會碰到總統了你這個國會主委有機會碰到總統就要告訴他要避免台灣,要避免戰爭,要和平所以一個就職典禮的演說也是很重要的所以不只是美中,我們不要陷入這個美中競爭的地緣政治"},{"start":6506.262,"end":6519.835,"text":"這個是最重要是我們自己很重要的然後國會的報告裏面若使總統人民做主開放政府的政見所以這個部分這裏面你提到原住民主數不平等確實"},{"start":6521.482,"end":6540.05,"text":"原住民組數位不平等需要去協調NCC協調國那個速發部未來原住民有關相關的這些中長城計畫的時候也是請給支持這裡面提到因為時間的關係我就把一些重點跟原住民比較有關係的"},{"start":6541.531,"end":6565.703,"text":"完成所作國家檔案館的建設因為我過去從臺灣省政府服務過在臺灣省政府服務過很多的機關法規會、社會處、省府的秘書處到原住民行政的部門我也常常我到中央人民會服務也將近10年"},{"start":6566.974,"end":6591.813,"text":"那現在因為過去的檔案啊 原住民專責的行政單位後來才成立很多在民政廳 那很多在這其他的廳處 所以省政府的這些檔案我曾經去你們的檔案 你們現在檔案擠嘛我去了這個新莊檔案擠去調資料 有的調得到 有的調不到"},{"start":6592.928,"end":6609.735,"text":"所以這個部分這是一個非常珍貴的一個檔案資料所以我要請這個這個主委尤其是局長把原住民主的相關的這些重要的檔案能夠把它好好地整理那個有個專檔有一個專檔"},{"start":6612.406,"end":6640.623,"text":"而不是這樣找的會比較方便所以這個部分也請這個既然要成立就把它好好的不是只有一個大樓啦更重要的是裡面的資料還有哪裡呢?省議會過去政治的中心尤其是原住民的部分是在很多都在省議會的資料裡面過去省支議會還在的時候現在沒有省支議會了法律上還有啦"},{"start":6641.887,"end":6663.343,"text":"省執議會當初有曾經整理過﹖所以可能還沒有完成﹖所以繼續的來處理﹖可以嗎﹖可以。這個這裡面我剛講過了另外就是說這個綜合發展就是花東基金的花東基金這個綜合發展實施方案"},{"start":6664.926,"end":6691.251,"text":"花東第7發展條例是民國100年立法院三度通過民國101年開始有花東基金101年到現在已經十幾年了然後還是現在都還是一樣4年一起4年一起還是40億所以這個如果按照物價指數各方面應該調整應該調高"},{"start":6694.758,"end":6702.422,"text":"而且是可以按照現在的規定就可以滾動檢討但是這個額度應該要做調高所以這個部分也請這個滾動檢討相關的這些確實是有需要因為這個10年前就是40億"},{"start":6718.227,"end":6718.768,"text":"接下來我們請張家俊委員請做詢談"},{"start":6747.808,"end":6773.755,"text":"主席我想請主委我們再請主委劉主委您從業界出生與傳統的政治人物不同請問您在擔任國發會主委後您說您會重新讓大國發回來本期想了解您所期許的大國發會是要具備哪些功能或說什麼樣才叫做大國花費呢"},{"start":6775.423,"end":6797.613,"text":"我希望我們的團隊是具備主導性能夠為國家規劃一個比較好的未來所以我們在以經濟來講我們過去是發布經濟的報告但是我現在是帶著團隊我們進行數據的分析去找到裡面可以改善的空間所以然後我們來讓他的整個經濟成長能夠在控制範圍內"},{"start":6798.433,"end":6821.592,"text":"其實我們過去就是國發會是等於是一個小內閣那最簡單的看法每一次的這個委員會法定的出席名單應該是各部會的部長但國發會成立之後幾乎都是由次長甚至是署長來代替開會不曉得主委會不會希望以後來開會盡量還是由各部的部長親自來呢?"},{"start":6823.158,"end":6830.324,"text":"是的 這個院長已經有指示了會議要求各部的部長親自參加是 你看上一次的會議記錄"},{"start":6831.755,"end":6832.416,"text":"是的,因為院長已經支持了"},{"start":6860.301,"end":6860.641,"text":"國會無法．針對有"},{"start":6875.294,"end":6902.17,"text":"心虛有可能會說謊的官員像您這樣子認真的官員是不會受到影響的你知道嗎這國會無法是在讓行政院更透明化而且呢甚至行政院做得好我們也是給他拍拍手鼓勵啊這是一個預防性的措施而不是要拿來破壞政府官員或者是跟任何民間企業跟人民都無關您了解嗎"},{"start":6903.833,"end":6926.384,"text":"謝謝委員開導您個人認為擔任國發會主委後您優先推動的政策或者是最大的政策目標是什麼?我們最大的目標就是第一個是產業我們希望讓經濟更好第二個是均衡我們希望讓台灣能夠各地發展是均衡的包括產業"},{"start":6928.018,"end":6929.159,"text":"每年增加多少電力需求?主委瞭解嗎?"},{"start":6947.45,"end":6965.746,"text":"電力需求依據台電的評估他把他整個整體需求目前把AI算進來是每一年整個台灣會有3%的增加是那如果每年成長3%10年就是30%而我們的核一、核二都已經除異了主委知道下一座要除異的機組是什麼時候要除異嗎?"},{"start":6969.214,"end":6993.974,"text":"應該是2025年沒有是這個今年今年的7月今年的7月27號我們和珊的第一座居住就要除役了那所以不到兩個月以後就要停止商轉再過一年明年的5月17號和珊的二號機也要停止商轉到那個時候我們所有核能機組就已經完全停止運轉"},{"start":6994.935,"end":7013.307,"text":"那所以呢合三除一之後大約會有6%至7%的電力缺口請問主委對我們現在臺灣的電力供給有信心嗎目前來講是有信心因為兩個因素第一個他備載有16%第二個因素是我我針對這一點有跟臺電再三確認那他有他的計劃在增加機組"},{"start":7020.149,"end":7037.083,"text":"我建議主委,針對台灣電力的實際狀況你一定要用心去了解否則您說的口號就會真的變成口號而且會變成空談你說台積電甚至AI這一些說每年還要增加3%的用電量"},{"start":7038.144,"end":7038.324,"text":"我去查明"},{"start":7067.512,"end":7073.864,"text":"四千零一億你知道四千零一億可以再多蓋一座核電廠嗎?知道嗎?呃...應該是...呃...我不曉得核電廠的..."},{"start":7080.043,"end":7082.505,"text":"我是沒有反對不是支持這一定要講清楚就是我們對企業來講我們要的是有安全穩定的供電"},{"start":7103.843,"end":7104.304,"text":"我覺得你被騙了"},{"start":7124.776,"end":7140.623,"text":"你也要求他們不准騙你你不准騙我們,他也不准騙你知道嗎?回去要好好的查明這件事情到底他們有什麼依據覺得說他們覺得有信心、電力充足我覺得這一點你一定要追根究柢那另外呢我是"},{"start":7141.283,"end":7159.772,"text":"本席其實是支持您抱持著不排斥的看法我覺得這是相當理性務實的看法那我們的院長行政院卓院長他就說永不放棄追求非核家園雖然您先前稱讚我們的行政院長是非常有理想的但這個想法顯然跟你的想法跟你的規劃有所衝突"},{"start":7164.474,"end":7188.951,"text":"主委你是不是應該拿起要喚醒大國發會這樣子的氣魄去勸一下行政院長用更務實、更理性的態度來看待核能呢?我的看法是氫能源可以發展起來非核家園是做得到的那我們也不需要在這種事情上面去打轉因為人民要的是一個乾淨的電那氫能源可以提供乾淨的電加上風力等等"},{"start":7189.511,"end":7192.553,"text":"所以我們應該去努力你如果再說到那個新能源的部分你知道那還要多少年才跟得上嗎我覺得你這樣子是不是有一點點太過夢幻的心情啊主席我想要發表就是說"},{"start":7207.982,"end":7216.446,"text":"這個核能要回歸理性專業對國家最有利的方式而不是因為有人絕食或是寫在黨章裡面就成為不可碰觸或者不可討論的禁忌主委你要拿起你在產業的這些實戰經驗好好地來對行政院要求說我們一定要為了產業發展"},{"start":7230.632,"end":7246.163,"text":"要有充足的電力不要再把核能當作是不可碰觸的禁忌了那接下來本席問就是說國防會的主委需要堅定很多法定的職務請問你自己了解有哪幾個重要的法定職務嗎?"},{"start":7248.666,"end":7264.107,"text":"重要的法令職務我目前參與到的是花東離島條例其他的我可能還要再一點時間去瞭解您同時也是政委因為組織法明定政委兼主委然後也是國發基金的召集人"},{"start":7264.608,"end":7282.225,"text":"那國發基金的代表人就是您作為國發基金就是代表人臺積電最大的股東擁有一席的董事席次那過去慣例這個位置都是由主委擔任那臺積電今年4月才公佈新任的這個名單是董明星主委"},{"start":7282.625,"end":7288.427,"text":"那6月4日的董事選舉能會由董明星秘書長來擔任國發會的基金代表擔任台積電的董事還是會換陳寧?我們會更換到我會更換到你嗎?所以這是確定的那我在這裡也向這個台積電的董事來建議就是說我們雲林縣湖北中科園區已經通過了台塘土地的陳珠而且呢"},{"start":7311.496,"end":7330.663,"text":"也用水用電的同意函都已經具備甚至從湖尾土庫寶中東勢串起來高達1600公頃的這個台湯土地用水用電用地都市市都具備希望主委可以建議台積電能夠則子能夠順利的來選定湖尾作為他擴廠的基地是的我會找機會表達謝謝主委"},{"start":7341.408,"end":7359.76,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做詢答陳昌明委員詢答結束 我們休息三分鐘 謝謝首先要請劉竹偉我們再請劉竹偉陳委員長"},{"start":7371.158,"end":7400.429,"text":"好,劉哲瑋好劉哲瑋你從企業界來到政府的機關而且來到重要的內閣單位那我剛剛聽了大國發會的時代要回來了因為我們的賴總統有特別指示以後參加國發會部長都要參加你手指示了各部門的討論這個非常重要你一定要堅持下來"},{"start":7404.254,"end":7421.766,"text":"是的,謝謝委員不是謝謝我,要堅持,要做事情那你是從資層管理顧問公司過來的那我看了天下雜誌的一篇報導他說你常常看到別人看不到的問題大家稱讚你"},{"start":7422.899,"end":7449.27,"text":"支持會計事務所跟支持管理顧問公司可以說是在國際上是有名的一種聯手的會計事務當然看的層面非常多那今天我要請教你一個問題你說答應日格的一個主要原因是我對下一代感到憂心忡忡你為什麼會對下一代感到憂心忡忡"},{"start":7451.039,"end":7475.932,"text":"從民進黨執政八年那總統都把年輕人帶來非常有希望結果臺灣的青年非常優秀那你怎麼感到臺灣的下一代憂心忡忡你告訴我一點企業界要講實話不要像政治人物這樣講來講去那邊一套這邊一套來你跟我講為什麼你對下一代憂心忡忡"},{"start":7477.366,"end":7479.548,"text":"你也碰到很多我們下一代的問題"},{"start":7506.349,"end":7535.45,"text":"今天你站這個位置不敢講出來我為什麼特別提醒你這一句話下一代你憂心忡忡國安會執委講師這一代表示我對我們臺灣的整體環境非常擔憂這第一點我要提醒你政治現在已經示威不分了企業是以利潤為基礎經營管理支持政治是以選票為基礎你先要認清楚這一點第二點"},{"start":7536.837,"end":7565.167,"text":"你自己講說在業界打滾已經有具備我們產業的實務跟前瞻其視的條件那標題幫你寫成這樣你要把自己變成聯誼推動公部門的平靜池水你又講到你太太是高層公務文官出身了說我們文官裡面的人才非常多水準非常高"},{"start":7566.366,"end":7582.82,"text":"你怎麼說你進來要變成一個連儀把公務機關攪動它平靜的池水因為你手中我有重要事業要好好改善我認同你的觀點但是你站在這我愛跟你講一些事情你這句禪事給我聽"},{"start":7590.003,"end":7615.012,"text":"我是沒有看那篇報導啦我不知道他為什麼這樣寫喔但是從我過去每換一個職務的話我都希望這個職務跟過去不一樣那我們都希望去更進化嘛你這麼重要的人物他喜歡搞一定要給你公務阿媒體不會給你公務阿天下雜誌也不是媒體天下雜誌也不是隨隨便便的雜誌我現在跟職位講好好提拔你國發會的人才"},{"start":7617.114,"end":7631.369,"text":"這幾年他被壓制了很慘他們多做做錯多錯少做少錯他們已經不願意發言你上級指示我才來做你要了解他們心態大家都很優秀"},{"start":7632.31,"end":7655.972,"text":"但是大家都想為臺灣為這個國家建立一份的心理但是政治把他們搞得無所適同我相信在下的官員你們心有戚戚焉啊我都瞭解都談過我只要說你為企業幹的執行官就是歐元首所有大概瞭解你的觀念這裡面好好提拔優秀的人才"},{"start":7657.589,"end":7660.271,"text":"你再來談到賴總統所以我兩次跟你見面"},{"start":7680.706,"end":7691.904,"text":"在內閣會議要你開處方說我們不但要有頂線我們要全面你為我們國家經濟的發展你處方要如何開"},{"start":7697.386,"end":7711.597,"text":"這個處方我們現在就是在我剛剛的報告有特別提到了第一個我們要拉成長的核心主軸那我們現在拉兩個核心主軸是半導體跟AI那第二個部分我們從我們在台灣戰事戰略超過12%的15的企業裡面產業撈出來我們現在挑了6個產業"},{"start":7717.841,"end":7735.981,"text":"．"},{"start":7736.101,"end":7746.872,"text":"就是比較規模大的企業以後去讓臺灣得到更大的保障之外可以提供員工更好的薪水我有看到裡面在談你說臺灣的晶圓製造、封裝測試包括冷的這邊已經佔了整個世界60幾%"},{"start":7753.869,"end":7769.893,"text":"機械製造業占的是台灣的電子產業裏面你說要發展AI的一個設計能力現在24%占全世界可以寬鬆48%這個比較快但是你要知道除了這你講的AI"},{"start":7775.655,"end":7797.906,"text":"跟臺灣經營的製造業要持續維持一個領先的地位你知道現在其他的產業不怎麼好過因為你所接觸我不曉得你傳統產業、機械產業、一些的產業你有沒有深入了解現在大家都一汪汪追著趕會不會產生核燃病我請你特別注意這樣"},{"start":7799.481,"end":7808.271,"text":"是的 這個的確我這邊有在注意產業的均衡裡面我們有做過數據分析的確有不均衡的問題我們需要去改善看到你頭腦的思維是怎樣結果這點不錯"},{"start":7816.977,"end":7845.087,"text":"要站就要站世界的首要地位站了最起碼要30%你是在那邊這麼寫的啊?是的我講的你聽得清楚嗎?我聽得清楚我怕我國語不標準我聽得懂啦好最後一個問題那個主席你所有朋友跟你講說你當這個官叫做流水的官公務人員這些你手下叫做鐵塔的兵"},{"start":7846.192,"end":7867.831,"text":"我欣賞那一點大家都在捧台積電說他最棒最好其實我跟你講賺的錢都是外國人拿去我們只佔了24%但是你又講了一句話我欣賞你說啊台積電吸走我們台灣大量的人才和資源"},{"start":7870.335,"end":7896.334,"text":"業界怨書宰盜真的是怨書宰盜他薪水一高第一個抓蓮花客人到台積電蓮花客要抓其他產業的人到蓮花我都碰到但上一次我一直在講這問題大家馬爾東風只有有錢賺這個一直往前衝我不反對甚至我們也把人才設立的一個"},{"start":7898.626,"end":7900.149,"text":"是台灣維持命脈的一個方式還有一點我最不滿"},{"start":7913.151,"end":7938.597,"text":"我在立法院常常講我們高通的7億美金的罰款我們竟然用他來投資的名義把他弄掉結果他薪水特別高高通又把台積隊的人才拉到他那邊去7億裡面的設備我們台灣人都用不到7億美金咧咱台灣的政府不給我們這個"},{"start":7940.219,"end":7954.254,"text":"不給家農領以外人我就不知道說到什麼時候還怕美國你這個好好瞭解一下你產業界出身的你跟高通那7億錢台灣到底得到什麼能有貢獻出來"},{"start":7956.016,"end":7978.574,"text":"把滑板變成他的投資然若他去補貼薪水非常高頂多若怕咱台灣的產業我不知道政策在哪裡我希望你7月就來了講實話官場還有很多那個不要怕做對的事情為台灣的事情做出正確的一條路要7月這麼想"},{"start":7979.975,"end":8008.415,"text":"我是把你整個我需要了解你的邏輯啊好好的發揮一下好不好我講的這樣聽得到嗎?聽得到謝謝到底是有還是沒有呢?有啦有啦有啦雖然那個無法通過但是我們都不會這樣那時候有一些太誇張的事情在裡面我們才這樣做但是你來好好做我們會支持國發會很重要規劃國家未來的發展及前景我希望你好好努力是謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":8010.29,"end":8010.47,"text":"主席"},{"start":8049.749,"end":8052.532,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8229.91,"end":8250.663,"text":"為官員做好了沒有?好,現在我們繼續開會。我們請區住委委員執行。"},{"start":8264.001,"end":8266.892,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請國話會留主委"},{"start":8276.517,"end":8299.525,"text":"主委您好,因為您是國會主委也是行政院的政務委員是的你作為政務委員你督導包括經濟部包括相關的財經部門是的包括財政部、金管會大家都你督導那經濟部門底下也有台電所以對你相關的發言雖然你個人說這個你不排斥核電"},{"start":8301.649,"end":8312.876,"text":"你關心的次序應該是電夠不夠、低碳發電夠不夠、最後就是淨零所以這部分你不排斥核電是你個人意見"},{"start":8314.446,"end":8333.327,"text":"還是未來政策規劃的方向?我當時只是在表達這個就是我們願意接受公開的討論但是就我的了解就是現在就個人我當時跟總統談的2050的路徑裡面是沒有核能的"},{"start":8334.128,"end":8358.261,"text":"就是我在負責檢探這個部分是非核家園還是會要終極目標要實現他不僅是非常專業高度專業也是非常政治性這個議題所以您的發言當然我相信你的專業從產業界有你的看法但是你這個動見觀瞻你的一言一行因為你督導經濟部"},{"start":8359.622,"end":8360.503,"text":"是,這個我學到了"},{"start":8380.785,"end":8399.842,"text":"所以你不是主委而已,你是政委員,政委員你要協調各部會的政策那你知道你也說到這個未來綠青綠青有幾個階段,有灰青有藍青要綠青你說明年度你要投入這個去掉藍青的發電計畫是藍綠青藍綠青,事實上台電已經有了"},{"start":8406.542,"end":8415.887,"text":"昨年在新達電廠我們就用這個燃氣混清5%的這個示範電廠那今年2025大概就是發電這個計畫已經成熟終於有這個相關的成果那具體落實在新達電廠"},{"start":8425.032,"end":8442.675,"text":"是的那初步是混清5%再慢慢做一個示範如果成效好我們再繼續再推廣所以這個部分當然我希望說未來綠清可成為一個主要的發言方式但是這個部分還有待科學上更多的克服"},{"start":8443.7,"end":8444.3,"text":"新經濟移民法"},{"start":8471.357,"end":8487.904,"text":"我們總統賴總統在當行政院議長的時候曾經提出新經濟移民法也是在國會發會有一段時間成為國會發會主推的優先法案當時解決人才跟人力的雙缺口"},{"start":8488.604,"end":8488.624,"text":"〔記者註冊〕"},{"start":8509.864,"end":8537.46,"text":"現階段如果你現在當主委會不會把這個當時我們賴總統當行政院長所推的新濟民法重新來推動我覺得要整合一個好的法案而不是各部分各部會是各行其事那這個效果我覺得是事半功倍那如果有一個專法來整合各部會那由國會去主推您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":8540.227,"end":8551.752,"text":"這個我們可以研究一下啦因為就我了解我們現在是有人才專法是讓高階的人才可以快速的移民進來我覺得是治標但不治本你要有一個專法"},{"start":8552.722,"end":8559.128,"text":"這是在總統當行政院長主推的這個優先法案那行政院長換人之後當然就有不同思考這個給你做參考那你不提我會來提"},{"start":8573.692,"end":8589.342,"text":"是我覺得要有一個專法來推動這個我們人才跟能力不足的問題來解決這個問題是那另外您有跟那個數化部這個黃部長AI的生態園區AI生態園區"},{"start":8594.284,"end":8620.286,"text":"北部要設立一個生態園區,南部要設立一個生態園區大概就是您跟蘇發部,蘇發部是您督導的嗎?不是沒關係,你用主委跟蘇發部黃部長趕快討論一下趕快把這個AI生態園區能夠落實,落實先把找一個點出來北部當然這個陳昌明可能他願意在陳昌明委員在苗栗可能有希望"},{"start":8621.717,"end":8626.222,"text":"南部的話我當然希望是在橋頭科學園區。橋頭科學園區是S廊帶的一個中心點。北有南科,中間有陸科,還有橋科,還有南子考驗園區。"},{"start":8637.119,"end":8662.337,"text":"所以你把AI生態園區設在橋頭園區我期待能夠把這個AI的這個園區因為我們條件都非常適合IC設計、晶圓製造、封裝測試什麼都在北高雄所以未來是不是可以考慮把這個AI生態園區把它設置在北高雄"},{"start":8664.355,"end":8690.38,"text":"我下午會跟黃部長開會我會轉達委員的意見來討論不是轉達你要深入研究我可以幫你做簡報我會給你做簡報因為這個所有條件我都非常清楚我可以做簡報讓你更清楚整個圖像整個條件然後你選擇出一個最好的一個地點所以北高雄是最好的一個點"},{"start":8693.174,"end":8715.294,"text":"那另外針對這個所得分配的狀況所得分配的狀況這個先講一下那個女性的勞參率因為勞參率這個你看比起其他國家香港、日本、南韓我們女性的勞參率是比較低的"},{"start":8717.885,"end":8745.382,"text":"中老年的淫髮族的勞參率也是偏低不管是中老年或者是青壯人口或者是女性的勞參率相對其他鄰近國家還低必須把這個原因找出來提出解決方案又一來鼓勵台灣女性的勞參率可以提高"},{"start":8747.385,"end":8770.447,"text":"謝謝主委 這個應該是列為你們這個工作計畫之一吧謝謝委員提醒我們會登這個題目去研究那另外就是說未來這個你的報告裡面有AI在臨床上就是說醫療服務的部分你AI在臨床上落地運用我看你的報告有提到這一點"},{"start":8771.727,"end":8800.054,"text":"所以你要怎麼樣確保這個醫療AI的安全跟效益這很重要所以你要這安全性效益你要先建置一個相對應的這個倫理準則因為你報告有提到這一點是的那這也是你好像上一次的報告裡面沒有提到這一點我發現你有這個想法你要怎麼樣突破醫療資料的這個使用的困境這裡面去思考這個問題你的想法是怎麼樣是同意"},{"start":8802.14,"end":8803.863,"text":"同意這個需要改善這個需要改善這個"},{"start":8809.355,"end":8835.851,"text":"我們現在是跟其實跟外務這邊現在正在主導一塊健康台灣的政策裡面數位醫療是放在裡面很重要的一項我同意我的觀點當然過來是好事我很開心但是你要有你的想法你要國發會國發會有你的主張有你的政策有你實行的這個時程這部分會來這是我的專業我會提出一些我們的看法"},{"start":8837.454,"end":8849.38,"text":"主席站起來後面還有委員要發言以後還有很多機會跟主委討論就是說您又是主委又是政委所以您的發言是動見觀瞻"},{"start":8852.381,"end":8880.39,"text":"被顯微鏡擴大來檢視,也有可能被放大鏡來把你的這個話無限上綱的延伸。所以這個要提醒您,謝謝。是,謝謝,謝謝委員。嗨,謝謝邱志維委員。那個指揮啊,南部的AI生態延期就設在邱志維的選區,我支持贊成。但是北部的話,要設在苗栗大溪谷計畫,我們苗栗延期好不好?你同意他也要同意我。"},{"start":8884.693,"end":8897.782,"text":"現在中嘉賓委員替代農美聯委員先請執行,現在請中嘉賓委員執行"},{"start":8911.612,"end":8920.358,"text":"感謝主席、謝謝委員先進、六位政府機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體機關女士先生有請我們劉主任委員"},{"start":8928.946,"end":8956.545,"text":"總委好主委好最近大家都要密切注意你的發言有關於我們的產業跟能源政策我的標題是我們臺灣這些跨足國際供應鏈的產業要靠綠能而且要善用臺灣的優勢佈局、輕能儲運好那在您的很多訪談當中呢強調AI時代算力及國力對不對是的好那您提到了三個重點齁如果未來預估用電需求會增加那我們要考慮的這三個問題是第一總用電的需求我們滿足對不對電夠不夠"},{"start":8958.936,"end":8983.279,"text":"第二個是低碳的電夠不夠以及如何減碳這才是重點是不是這樣是的好那再來才是我們2050的淨零目標那麼根據我們很紅的最近的合作童子賢董事長他說AI運算、電動車、晶片都需要大量電力所以電力也是國力你同意嗎同意但是他後面說的核能可以幫助綠能這個我就要來請教一下你的意見企業需要的是不是穩定供電"},{"start":8984.58,"end":9010.558,"text":"但是呢風光發電有供電的建設有間歇性所以企業對於供電有焦慮所以因此考慮核能就你了解是不是這個原因我先解釋一下核能現在是這樣子核能是一個低碳電但是核廢料要得到妥善的儲存才有機會去探討它是不是綠電但是以歐盟現在來看它還不被認為綠電目前歐盟合乎這個標準只有芬蘭"},{"start":9011.138,"end":9013.241,"text":"對,所以我們現在的不是綠電,那不在我的檢探範圍裡面是不是這樣的意思?"},{"start":9029.461,"end":9050.776,"text":"在歐盟的話,這不是荷蘭,芬蘭這我可能要再理解一下,我之前聽到是歐盟到現在對核電能不能是綠電還是有,還在討論當中至少看起來好像勉強只有芬蘭,往下看所以他只是有機會,但機會是可能是5%,可能是50%,這個叫dependence那個討論的結果所以這要釐清,不然大家都以為歐盟認為呢,核能是,核電是綠電"},{"start":9051.897,"end":9078.725,"text":"那麼積極發展符合RE100的再生能源 這才是我們真正的重心 是不是這樣沒錯 企業的壓力在這裡RE100有沒有包括 它的再生能源總理有沒有包括核電目前是沒有 因為他沒有辦法 那目前我們再生能源的憑證能滿足業界的需求嗎我們現在正在評估 那目前我們 一些以我們最新的路徑來看還差一些些 那我們現在是準備這樣做 就第一個是做IREC 就是國際力電憑證"},{"start":9080.365,"end":9107.962,"text":"那第二個呢我們台電這邊也會加速在那個探捕桌地方的減碳還有汽車的減碳我們有一個路徑去往這條路走這些產業這個需求都是一些外銷的大產業嗎?國內的中小企業需不需要?中小企業有外銷的目前都有這個需求有需求嗎?所以總體來講需求一直在成長好往下看是的那我們看一下台積電台積電未來的佈局啊在台灣加重投資啊所以它3奈米的產能增加3倍它對綠電的需求是不是要增加很多?是的"},{"start":9108.598,"end":9115.266,"text":"有人在說目前臺灣1000度的綠電當中臺積電買掉9999啊民間中小企業只有搶得到一度綠電你覺得這樣說法客觀嗎?這個細節我可能還要再去理解啦但是大部分被人拿走了嘛現在應該"},{"start":9128.214,"end":9130.716,"text":"我的認知有些企業還是有買到他要的"},{"start":9157.934,"end":9181.156,"text":"是的好,那麼台灣的青能產業布局是不是太保守?如果只是用氫來替代進口的石化燃料來發電您覺得這樣的台灣的青能產業布局是不是太保守了呢?呃,我不認為因為它是一個決戰未來能源的國際競爭力但是它只用來取代發電我的看法跟您交換一下意見其實呢往下看其實基金發展、氫能的民生運用跟儲運產業很重要"},{"start":9182.737,"end":9212.177,"text":"因為我們民生端比如說燃料電池的電動車、氫能車或者運輸端我們港口的儲運設施包括阿姆斯特丹、漢堡這些歐盟的國家都在大力的推動因為要進口這些氫能他用安或者其他方式進口他都需要有儲能設施和運輸設施的轉變是不是這樣子是的現在整個歐盟都在做這個實驗所以請你們一定要聯合經濟部跟交通部因為交通部呢港口是交通部管的往下看全球排前11名的航商當中台灣占了幾個你知道嗎"},{"start":9214.118,"end":9221.283,"text":"我寫出來了嗎?前11名的占了3個啦前20名的占了4個我們總的運能啊占了全世界的一成"},{"start":9222.25,"end":9242.382,"text":"那未來的船舶也是不是要用低碳燃料?是的,因為歐盟已經開始徵收已經記錄了嘛對,已經徵收了所以不只我們的運輸的船隊要用低碳燃料連他載運的這些飛行機也是要改成類似像安這樣的一個氫能原料,是不是這樣子?是的好,我再往下看所以是不是能夠用台灣的航運優勢政府積極的來輔導發展氫能儲運的產業?"},{"start":9245.894,"end":9256.648,"text":"是的好,那就給我答案,所以請你研議呢政府利用臺灣航運優勢、積極發展及輔導輕能民生應用和儲存船的可行性一個月提出一個報告,可以嗎?可以好,謝謝"},{"start":9265.066,"end":9284.087,"text":"那個反核式民進黨的神主牌,副黨神山,那個神主牌你不能亂去給他擋他們現在已經在跟你講話是叫你不要對核能亂發言,小心一點好不好好,現在請老美聯委員發言"},{"start":9293.367,"end":9294.168,"text":"謝謝主席 有請劉主委"},{"start":9306.945,"end":9326.184,"text":"國發會在2022年的時候有定下一個目標就是在2030年我們要增加19萬的僑外生留在台灣工作我們來看過去10年從2014年到2023年確確實實僑外生每一年留台的這個留台率是逐年的提高可是呢要"},{"start":9326.664,"end":9346.92,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9347.54,"end":9369.769,"text":"在2023年這個目標年大概還有6年多的時間也就是說如果要達到這19萬強外生要留台的話大概每一年留在台灣的強外生人數必須要有3萬人左右我想請問國發會這不是喊一喊就有這個人數就出來了我想請教一下以目前的這個人數有可能"},{"start":9370.709,"end":9375.094,"text":"在未來的6年多就達標嗎?請問國發會有沒有跟相關單位像僑委會、勞動部來討論過相關的問題?這個細節我能不能請我們同仁先講我再補回答我再補充"},{"start":9391.87,"end":9413.055,"text":"謝謝委員關心有關喬外森流台的目標我們是優先是擴大我們前幾年是擴大了吸引喬外森來台我們擴增來源三倍的量能但這個部分將來他會陸續我們再提高他透過我們各項的一個流台的相關規定的放寬會提高他的流台的誘因"},{"start":9413.635,"end":9427.964,"text":"那這個部分我們希望從現成的48%會提高到6到7成那這樣子就有助於我們在2030年達到19萬這樣的目標所以你們對這個目標是有信心的對不對那當然我們這個"},{"start":9433.926,"end":9458.914,"text":"一般外專人是在台工作的這個辦法那再來就是喬外申的這個評點制那這兩個制度其實都有門檻比如說外專人才好了他有一個薪資門檻是47,971元所以有很多不符合想要走這一條的其實很多喬外申因為拿不到這個薪資只好轉而走這個"},{"start":9460.034,"end":9460.254,"text":"國發會主席"},{"start":9479.237,"end":9507.84,"text":"評點制的人數限制還有這個薪資的這個門檻我們會拿掉嗎?這點已經有共識會拿掉會拿掉?對所以以後沒有薪資沒有上限就對薪資門檻沒有上限對不對?配額沒有上限配額沒有配額機遷沒有上限那個薪資呢?薪資門檻呢?因為畢竟那以後呢那還有這個那個喬壞森的這評點制他還有產業別嘛他還有產業別的限制那產業的這部分有沒有要拿掉呢?"},{"start":9509.218,"end":9529.804,"text":"目前我們這些相關的都在檢討中包括勞動部也有在評估這個部分我們其實都有在納入研議中委員剛剛提到我想了解說勞動部目前他的這個他的這個想法他的這個未來想要走的方向是哪些你目前說已經有跟勞動部這邊做過討論了那請問勞動部這邊他的態度是什麼"},{"start":9534.915,"end":9535.596,"text":"目前有彈性來處理嗎?"},{"start":9553.409,"end":9553.449,"text":"對,有有"},{"start":9569.179,"end":9584.774,"text":"所以你們彈性的做法是怎樣的做法呢?對,因為是可以由那個廠商他提出申請,然後就是跨部會這樣的會商用個案許可的方式。過去就已經有在進行當中,可是你知道嗎?像你們之前的說法,僑外生很多都不知道。"},{"start":9585.294,"end":9591.678,"text":"他們只看到這個就是說公司資本額不足所以我就不符合資格了所以這個部分如果說過去有在做應該多加宣導可是我們所瞭解的是過去很多橋外生我們都不知道說你們有所謂的彈性的做法那我們這個會加強來宣導"},{"start":9602.304,"end":9619.326,"text":"那我在想說我也知道說像勞動部協會其實最近都有很密集的在討論橋外森的鬆綁的這個政策那我在想說國防會這邊有沒有了解說我們的進程我們大概是什麼時候會有一個進一步的這個政策的這個修訂請問"},{"start":9622.492,"end":9624.194,"text":"接下來我們請李坤誠委員請做詢問"},{"start":9655.891,"end":9660.796,"text":"謝謝主席主委在喝咖啡請主委我們請主委"},{"start":9669.571,"end":9692.465,"text":"主委好 主委好 其實也辛苦了 其實剛剛就是讓你先喝一下咖啡了 那請問一下 我相信也很多委員都請教你 因為最近你在跟媒體查序的時候提到說對於核能的看法 你有三個原則 第一個看電夠不夠 第二個是低碳電夠不夠 還有如何減碳 第三是2050的這個淨零目標 你這三個原則可不可以再花點時間再說清楚一點"},{"start":9693.405,"end":9715.581,"text":"我解釋一下,其實我是從企業來的,因為企業其實在意的是有沒有安全穩定的電,夠不夠電那其實為了這個其實我一開始我們有遇到台電的時候,大概我們都有提出來那台電其實告訴我的是他們的電力準備是非常完備的,那我也看到一些數據"},{"start":9717.162,"end":9730.572,"text":"所以它是夠的所以坦白講我在內部會議的時候我就有提出來那核電已經不是一個重要議題因為夠不夠才是一個重要議題那接下來我們要做的是我們做怎麼做淨零碳排的路徑的執行"},{"start":9731.257,"end":9757.819,"text":"因為你有提到就是說這個AI發展會增加到三成的電力的需求那個是對機房的部分不是總體電力總體電力的話應該不到1%將近現在是調到3%的總體增加我覺得這個要講清楚啦那是機房的部分對啊我想說這個我一看就說為什麼AI發展就需要這個3倍的電力所以是指機房的部分機房的部分全部的電力來講就增加1%全部電力從昨天經濟部出來的是總體會增加3%"},{"start":9759.701,"end":9784.258,"text":"議員．"},{"start":9784.338,"end":9784.538,"text":"是這樣的喔?"},{"start":9811.898,"end":9835.823,"text":"在歐盟來看的話第一個你的核廢料必須要有一個良好的儲存是良好的儲存那還是你要找到最終的這個處置的地方對最終處置場然後呢所以要講清楚喔你要儲存現在比如說現在核廢料也是有暫時的儲存啊比如放在新北啊跟找到這個最終的這個處置場是兩個不一樣的概念喔對對也因此其實歐盟到現在還沒有還沒有核准過綠能"},{"start":9837.612,"end":9855.585,"text":"對阿,因為現在這個核電還不算是綠電嗎?它不算綠電,它只是低碳,它不是綠電。對阿,我們的RE100裡面百分之百用再生能源也沒有包括核電嘛對不對?沒有包括,因為它不是再生能源。它不是再生能源。對。它也沒辦法找到最終的組織廠啦。對。好。那請教一下。它找到也不會是再生能源。好。"},{"start":9856.97,"end":9880.326,"text":"國民黨提出有關花東的三個法案這三個法案都沒有經過大家合理的討論兩分鐘之內就通過大概上兆的兩兆以上的法案包含花東快還有環島高速鐵路還有國六東延花蓮請問一下主委在國發會的規劃裡面"},{"start":9884.13,"end":9895.13,"text":"我看到你們花東有推動花東離島地區永續發展我問一下主委對於三大乾坑建設的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":9896.97,"end":9914.97,"text":"這個部份是交通的專業,我們沒有這個專業去評估,我們的做法是要它上的。但是它也是在國發會裡面對於花東的這個建設裡面,國民黨認為說如果沒有這三個交通建設,花東就沒辦法發展嘛,那我是問說這個國發會的態度啊。"},{"start":9917.694,"end":9920.575,"text":"目前至少他沒有可行性的研究沒有環境影響評估當然在委員會沒有實施討論"},{"start":9936.68,"end":9963.198,"text":"當然交通部會在做這個專業性評估那我只是就教這一個主委就是說在國發會的這一個這個施政的這一個方向裡面交通對於花東來講它不是唯一發展的必要性交通很重要但是對於花東有更多的一些資源投入進去可以促進花東的發展那如果像這一種這一個三大交通建設第一個"},{"start":9963.778,"end":9968.119,"text":"我還是覺得可惜性評估一定要專業的交通部來做以後然後也要有一個很完整的環境評估然後再經過討論然後才會有機會來"},{"start":9989.902,"end":9989.922,"text":"來探討"},{"start":10010.852,"end":10023.72,"text":"對我們來講花東的建設很重要但是這個第一個是淺坑法案第二個對於花東的這個環境自然人文都會造成影響那我請這個主委要多加考慮好不好是好謝謝謝謝謝謝接下來我們請陳廷飛委員請做詢談謝謝齁召委我們請主委我們再請主委"},{"start":10046.584,"end":10061.673,"text":"主委好主委好主委我想現在我們希望現在一直在期待有一個AI的研發中心是那這個有沒有可能在台南"},{"start":10063.566,"end":10087.811,"text":"來協助這樣的一個AI研發中心來帶動地方的產業鏈智慧化的升級轉型其實大家知道應該主委因為你產業界過來的你知道很多的隱形產業就是在台南對所以基本上他們從過去靠著自己然後一路走到現在現在都面臨一個必須轉型的時間關鍵點了"},{"start":10091.038,"end":10101.711,"text":"因為我們要跟世界接軌現在AI是非常重要的而且我們怎麼將傳統改變轉型也是一個大工程"},{"start":10102.785,"end":10121.473,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分如果能夠協助在台南爭取一個新建我們的AI研發中心協助這些傳產協助我們這些中小企業地方產業能夠把智慧化的升級我相信這非常重要"},{"start":10122.423,"end":10147.072,"text":"主委你認為呢?這個我想整個AI的發展覺得是我們重中之重那我這個設計整個我們現在是這樣會先設計裡面的內容然後之後我們至於它會變成虛擬化還是或是一個實際地點這個還要跟速發部的討論那我們今天下午會討論我想會把委員的看法也會也會轉達給那個部長"},{"start":10149.144,"end":10173.598,"text":"因為現在這個研發中心我想這個有這樣的傳言說我們的黃仁勛黃總裁這個等我們臺南之光這個江建瀨總統要希望在這個研發中心的地點可以從高雄跟臺南去二選一來打造臺灣的AI島是不是有這樣的傳言?"},{"start":10177.105,"end":10201.058,"text":"這個傳言我不清楚現在大家都很期待所以我會今天在這個質詢當中提出這樣的一個看法就是說如果真的在整個研發中心AI的研發中心如果要真的從高雄跟台南去二則一台南其實最適當因為他現在"},{"start":10204.377,"end":10204.597,"text":"主委你認為呢?"},{"start":10234.637,"end":10247.256,"text":"我想委員講得很有道理啦,我會轉達我們可能一起整體讓大家會特別也參考,我想台南一定是在選項之一啦,我們來努力看看"},{"start":10247.878,"end":10276.296,"text":"因為我相信土地一定沒有問題嘛 這個AI的研發中心土地一定是最首要之重嘛 沒土地就不用說了嘛 台南土地一定沒問題嘛 台南看你要選到哪一地我們一定全力支持嘛 然後再來我們也有一些所謂的相關的不斷電資訊的處理系統的一個電力供給 這也都是我們在進行當中 所以我認為"},{"start":10277.962,"end":10294.905,"text":"臺南有他適合的地理位置有他適合的條件而且在各方的一些產業資源當中一定我們能夠全力配合所以這個在拜託我們的主委希望能夠把我們的聲音"},{"start":10296.212,"end":10298.433,"text":"發言委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":10315.789,"end":10337.692,"text":"這才是重要所以我利用今天的質詢把我們地方的期待把我們地方的需求然後跟主委報告希望主委可以幫我們轉達能夠幫我們在討論如果真的有機會做這樣的一個AI研發中心的時候要把台南變成首要的"},{"start":10338.615,"end":10366.843,"text":"一些我們的決定的地理位置這個才是我們需要我們主委來幫忙那另外一個部分是我們現在有很多中小企業的智慧轉型的計畫由中央來協助可是這些其實主委你看過之後你是來行人你看過之後這都是在教育的部分"},{"start":10367.97,"end":10395.544,"text":"並沒有全面我們在協助中小企業智慧轉型不能只有focus在教育這個區塊我們應該的是全面性對不對對中小企業的智慧轉型不是只有教育所以我們在問的是我們到底國發會如果你要協助中小企業智慧轉型這個計畫你們是整合人"},{"start":10396.806,"end":10425.16,"text":"你們整合各部會你們是不是應該整合得更為精進更為提升而不是單向反正有在做就好了教育部有在做你也把他納入說這是我的智慧轉型不是那麼簡單啊中小企業的智慧轉型不是只有在教育這個區塊這兩個是差很多對不對主委是不是是的你剛看到這個計畫"},{"start":10426.837,"end":10450.815,"text":"我們去調了說臺南市協助就是我們中央的預算來協助臺南市那臺南市來協助中小企業智慧轉型的一些相關的計畫名稱計畫內容我們調出來的居然是這些居然是這些主委你看完你內行你看完之後有什麼想法"},{"start":10452.586,"end":10480.042,"text":"我們其實在我們的計畫裡面本來就有一段是要照顧傳產透過AI轉型那我想我們會在整個國家發展計畫裡面會把整體產業一起考慮進來那就不會產生這不平衡現象這個是我們用我們協助中小企業智慧轉型這樣的名稱下去調的資料就調到這幾個"},{"start":10483.403,"end":10510.979,"text":"這幾個幾乎都是在教育的區塊比較多所以這不是智慧轉型不是智慧轉型有很多方向可是你要把它區分什麼是教育什麼是中小企業什麼區塊每一個區塊其實是不一樣表示智慧轉型現在是已經是重中之重了可是你不能是好像反正有在做就好了"},{"start":10511.92,"end":10513.041,"text":"這個部分會讓大家覺得到底什麼是智慧轉型?"},{"start":10527.796,"end":10536.282,"text":"自衛轉型的精神是什麼會亂掉所以我是用這個來提醒再來就是說這個再請我們主委你這個會後再給我們一個報告就是說"},{"start":10544.128,"end":10567.987,"text":"我們國發會如何協助我們的賴總統打造五大信賴產業半導體產業、人工智慧產業、軍工產業、安控產業、通訊產業這五大信賴產業我們打算怎麼做國發會打算怎麼幫忙協助打造然後我的區塊在哪裡"},{"start":10568.848,"end":10570.489,"text":"我需要這些資料再麻煩一個月拜託一個月好謝謝"},{"start":10600.302,"end":10600.743,"text":"主席主委有請主委"},{"start":10628.167,"end":10651.776,"text":"委員早主委午安吶這個看了你的背景吼跟剛剛聽了一些委員的質詢吼還有看了你們今天這一本業務報告吼本期要做幾點提醒也做一些政策的對話這我們當然知道賴清德總統上任之後新的內閣希望帶動AI啦這個科技啦國防啦等等的這些信賴產業那您過去也有在外商服務的經驗但是吼"},{"start":10652.316,"end":10653.277,"text":"目前我的了解是只有在附加價值率占了58.5%"},{"start":10672.233,"end":10694.048,"text":"那就業人口數我現在手上沒有資料就業人口數大概是兩成左右啦那請問主委知不知道臺灣的服務業的就業人口數占全國人口多少大概百分之六十二百分之六十嘛對不對所以我看了這本報告之後我是有點擔心啦因為我們把很多的重點國家發展的重要的資源投入以及政策的規劃都放在這些高上大的產業上面但相對來講我看到我為這60%的服務業從業人員感到很擔憂啊"},{"start":10697.93,"end":10727.083,"text":"因為最近不管是通貨膨脹也好或是怎麼樣也好即便景氣回溫但顯然這些60%的這一群相對多數的服務業、從業人口薪水是沒有提升的然後造成了一個惡性循環因為我的工作待遇不好工作待遇不好的時候當然就變成缺工的狀況更嚴重缺工狀況更嚴重的時候對於商家來講要推動轉型或是走出新的路他難度跟門檻就變高了請問針對服務業現在的缺工跟低薪的困境啊國發會有沒有任何的政策配套跟政策方向"},{"start":10728.69,"end":10748.895,"text":"在我們新的規劃裡面因為這個62%的這個就業人口數他必須被充分的照顧到那我們這裡面我們其實做了一個圖表的分析大部分的附加價格率是比較偏低的那我們這裡面拉兩塊一塊是為了未來AI需要的人才我們會希望大幅的拉動資訊服務業"},{"start":10750.715,"end":10769.277,"text":"剩下的產業我們現在的做法是這樣我們目前的規劃是希望透過自衛化的方式增強他在市場行銷跟管理上的競爭力還有供應鏈競爭力之外我們可能會鼓勵他們去做結盟就是產業控股公司的結盟方式"},{"start":10770.017,"end":10793.33,"text":"讓他的資本變大以後呢可以前進國外那原因是說我們在製造業可以看到很多國際級的台灣產業在國際競爭但服務業沒有那要走出去的話當然我們資訊服務業拉起來之後另外還有一塊就是要這個產業要有能力走出去變成一個比較大的企業那產業控股是一個可能的方式所以我們目前大概朝這幾個方向在規劃"},{"start":10794.591,"end":10819.168,"text":"我希望下一次再看到這個國發會的業務報告裡面針對台灣服務業的轉型跟提升要有更加具體的一個說法那您剛剛報告的這些東西我希望會後提供一份書面資料可以嗎我想了解一下國發會這一部分的政策規劃第二個問題是過去我們看到2020年國發會其實有推動國發會包山包海主委應該很清楚有推動叫做穩定房地產對策請問主委上台之後國發會要不要繼續做穩定房地產的對策"},{"start":10820.469,"end":10824.832,"text":"這個跟主委講句比較不客氣的話很諷刺的就是在2020的穩定房地產對策上推動之後基本上就迎來了台灣就迎來了"},{"start":10840.524,"end":10859.236,"text":"房價再次飛漲的一個階段所以你越打房價越漲最近本期選區歸山還有那個預售屋排隊搭帳棚在那邊排隊的他們真的是資助客嗎還是投資客我們政府的這一段時間的對於房地產市場的平穩跟相關的一些措施真的有見效嗎我是希望主委對這一塊也要多加來琢磨"},{"start":10860.517,"end":10886.038,"text":"因為我剛剛講的60%相對來講辛苦的服務業、從業人員除了一般通貨膨脹的衝擊之外另外最大的衝擊都來自於房價我們希望台灣未來的經濟發展走的是一個健康的模式也就是說它有高科技產業在前面做龍頭讓這群人先可以賺到所得的利潤但相對來講其他也要跟上來分配要有更公平正義那有關居住正義的這部分請問國發會有沒有一些想法簡單的說明就好了"},{"start":10887.279,"end":10907.234,"text":"目前有一些初步的想法我們正在評估中那我們希望協助蓋更多的社會宅那另外一部分我們現在正在協調的是採用財務工程的方式希望引投資的資金進來做這件事目前才在規劃中還沒有很成熟那大概多久時間內會有一個比較具體的政策方向"},{"start":10907.962,"end":10932.277,"text":"我們是希望三個月左右因為牽扯的細節比較多還有牽扯到法令的問題那如果有這個資助的話他整個建的速度會增快好,我希望可以看到具體的方向我希望國防會把這部分也作為重點就是除了經濟發展之外公平正義也非常重要這是本席一直以來關注的焦點希望諸位新官商人好好努力,可以嗎?可以可以,謝謝辛苦了"},{"start":10937.782,"end":10953.354,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請王紅薇委員請做詢答謝謝主席麻煩我們劉主委另外我們幾位處長綜合規劃處、經濟發展處、產業發展處麻煩也隨著主委一起上好我們請三位處長也一併上主委請上"},{"start":10966.426,"end":10976.512,"text":"主委好,我呼籲一下剛才牛許廷委員他所諮詢的內容其實在這次新政府裡面,包含主委還有我們的數法部部長跟經濟部的部長,被外界認為是有亮點的一個隔緣的安排"},{"start":10982.296,"end":10994.103,"text":"但是呢不可諱言的我們幾位現在新的閣員基本上你們的資歷非常的好非常亮眼但是確實都屬於高大上的產業感覺呢沒有什麼庶民經濟的相關的一些經驗那所以呢我把它具體而為的特別為什麼也請三位處長一起來聽一下"},{"start":11008.331,"end":11014.696,"text":"昨天主計處發布了一個訊息統計資料我個人認為這是對於很多的我們講數名經濟非常重要一個資料因為他們是固定的去調查台灣的攤販數還有他的交易金額以及他的利潤出現了一個地下經濟的震痛期我不曉得震痛還是會變成長痛期"},{"start":11034.711,"end":11050.821,"text":"我們台灣的攤販數35年來出現了加數下降最多而且利潤也下降最多的一個狀況這個我們是可以理解因為包含我們現在不管是網購啦、電子支付啦、外賣等等一定會衝擊這些攤販"},{"start":11053.743,"end":11072.639,"text":"那所以我們今天除了我們在講AI產業科技產業我們的淨零排放等等之類但是對於這這麼多的一個就業人口的攤販數的急劇下降我們政府可不可以想辦法有一些協助好我直接講"},{"start":11073.78,"end":11092.605,"text":"在我在擔任臺北市議員的時候其實我們在臺北市做了一個非常大的努力就是讓傳統的市場攤販能夠做電子支付所以像在臺北市所有公有市場現在電子支付的普及率已經超過90%"},{"start":11094.045,"end":11094.465,"text":"我看你再點頭哈"},{"start":11123.934,"end":11148.733,"text":"那我要講就說除了臺北市之外很多的縣市可能也有在做可是做了一些時間因為攤販他可能非常的反彈或者是說基本上大家都可以想到了一個他付手續費他覺得我成本增加另外一個他很怕國稅局來幫他查稅等等之類的所以他會有一些反彈或者抗拒所以呢"},{"start":11149.794,"end":11157.702,"text":"現在除了台北市之外其實他推行的並不是很好可是呢我覺得這些的攤販轉型必須要做的比如說現在外賣也好或者網購也好越來越多好我舉例來講"},{"start":11165.109,"end":11182.627,"text":"台北市就是因為有大力的推動攤販的電子支付所以別說包含在台北市的我們中山市場還有松江市場這都是我的選區啊他有傳統的市場但是呢他在外賣他全部都上架所以並不是只有全聯上架你要買生鮮食品並不是只有在全聯哦"},{"start":11183.388,"end":11186.209,"text":"你可以在我們這些很好的市場買到更好的生鮮食品好別說南門市場當然這也很有名所以如果未來我們能夠推動這樣的市場攤販能夠成功轉型的話這樣的一個大浪潮會使得我們非常好的服務業非常好的攤販他繼續能夠在市場存活"},{"start":11204.716,"end":11211.24,"text":"所以這一點非常重要所以我在這邊也拜託主委除了高大上的產業之外也能夠來關心我們這樣的一個傳統產業怎麼樣讓他搭上這樣的便車轉型勢在必行當然這個要請經濟部經濟部有些輔導辦法但是看起來輔導不利啊因為可能有一些攤商他還在抗拒中"},{"start":11226.929,"end":11231.013,"text":"另外花一點點時間不好意思我要跟主委講因為主委接受媒體採訪談到就是你談到核電的重要性你也談到說清電的重要性但是也想跟主委讓主委了解"},{"start":11244.06,"end":11261.477,"text":"國際能源署他的預估2050年全球的清電的占比是1%而國發會做出來的也根據為了要符合我們2050的淨零排放的目標做出來的清電的占比 諸位知道是多少嗎"},{"start":11265.492,"end":11289.862,"text":"9到12%9到12% 主委你覺得這數字有沒有怪怪的?如果全球 因為全球都要淨零排放不是只有台灣才要嗎?如果全球做出來是1%但是我們國發會當然為了要配合 因為不能做核電了 怎麼來補充呢?所以做出9到12%你有沒有感覺1%跟9到12%台灣會不會怪怪的 我們會不會太過的高估?好 因為你要去中研院去找廖院長"},{"start":11291.002,"end":11314.116,"text":"中研院的,它也是針對淨零排放的科技的政策建議書你知道2050年它的建議是多少嗎?清電的百分比要多少嗎?您知道嗎?好,我來告訴你,因為我時間我不要...達到四分之一可能嗎?達到四分之一國際百分之一我們..."},{"start":11316.759,"end":11338.312,"text":"國發會預估9%到12%我以10%好了10倍然後中研院的建議是達到4分之1所以你就知道我希望讓那個諸位有一些概念如果我們做一個完全高於而且超出世界趨勢的預期你就會知道我們的這樣的規劃會是怪怪的"},{"start":11340.914,"end":11340.934,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":11371.178,"end":11379.246,"text":"王珊珊委員請作詢答"},{"start":11400.219,"end":11421.979,"text":"主委長我想我們在看到您對雜誌的這個專訪裡面我看到的一句話是你希望大的國發會可以回來這句話是什麼意思你可以再說一遍嗎我是希望我是對我們同仁的勉勵我們希望能夠多一點主導性來把國家的未來的規劃做得比較完整"},{"start":11422.319,"end":11447.138,"text":"沒錯,應該是回到我們台灣在經濟發展之前有經建會當時的經建會它為國家破壞了未來長期建設的進度跟計畫可是自從相關的總統職選之後這些計畫很多都跟著任期被打亂我想如果您的願景是這樣我希望真正能夠落實所以今天有一個很重要的我也認為說"},{"start":11449.34,"end":11471.475,"text":"賴總統請您從業界從企業界來這個對國家來說可能也是另外一個新的攪動我所謂的長期的所謂的官僚體系那去年也就是第10屆的第8會期臺灣民眾黨的吳信義委員要求行政院指派成立主權基金的主責單位當時的行政院長陳建仁當場承諾交由國發會來規劃"},{"start":11475.39,"end":11502.175,"text":"我想問一下現在後來國發會也開了很多跨部會的會議來討論但是後來進入看守討論就不了了之但是我們的案子台灣民眾黨在這一屆的國會我們也提出了主權基金的法案所以我現在要問主委國發會目前還有沒有這個規劃還是說陳建元院長卸任了所以這個案子就胎死腹中了主委你的看法呢"},{"start":11505.27,"end":11534.659,"text":"您來自業界我希望你來幫國家賺錢我們同仁的說法是現在在部會的討論中您自己的看法您現在這樣講說你要當大國發會如果現在我們現在各種地方都在討論財政收支劃分法的問題財劃法地方都說沒錢中央也說我要管我要做很多事所以我也沒有錢分給你我們的問題是這些錢就這麼多另外一個方法就是"},{"start":11536.044,"end":11564.942,"text":"政府去多賺點錢回來所以主權基金是基於這樣的方式不是讓大家一直在同一塊餅裡面分餅而是去把餅再怎麼樣做大所以您來這個業界您也做過非常多企業的顧問一樣的方法我只是希望能不能夠帶進到政府裡面把這個觀念比照包括接下去很多的國家都有主權基金在應付所謂的高齡化的社會所以主委您不能沒有想法"},{"start":11565.903,"end":11566.606,"text":"你的想法是什麼?"},{"start":11567.774,"end":11595.541,"text":"這個部分我們還是要去研究因為坦白講我比較希望是我們同仁我們去看一下各國的一些執行狀態因為有些國家其實執行的效果就我的瞭解並沒有預期的那麼好所以我們可能要把這些經驗吸取進來然後做一個比較完整的規劃會比較好帶入業界的概念是臺灣不會只是一直不斷的在這塊餅裡面炒來炒去如果我們可以我們的外匯存底很多"},{"start":11596.121,"end":11623.851,"text":"現在只是說誰來做怎麼做而且怎麼樣做到可以達到我們預期的效益而不是只是單純的把一筆錢拿出去亂花而已我想這個是需要長期規劃但是我需要我希望知道的是您接任之後陳建仁院長的承諾這個政策能不能夠持續的延續我們會繼續還是繼續把它演繹出來好第二個部分就是我看到你也說我們的"},{"start":11625.865,"end":11647.493,"text":"外國的外商不太容易進來的原因是外資留不住因為我們的英文環境很差雙語國家政策也是國發會的重要政策之一然後賴總統在這上面也講了很多但是在去年的大選大家也看到了第一線的教師其實受到很大的衝擊而且有非常多反彈的意見所以我想問一下主委沒錯"},{"start":11648.598,"end":11665.549,"text":"台灣要繼續發展人工智慧AI我們英語環境可能也是我們英語能力很重要的一環所以我想問一下雙語國家的政策你有什麼想法還是會延續2030年高中以下所有英文要全英文教然後三分之一的學校都要有英文教學"},{"start":11666.369,"end":11666.889,"text":"主委,您的看法"},{"start":11683.387,"end":11713.387,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":11713.787,"end":11713.807,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":11736.414,"end":11761.542,"text":"接下來我們請黃旺凱委員請做詢答那我們中午不休息延長開會時間至議程處理完畢謝謝主席謝謝麻煩請留主委我們再請留主委主委好委員好主委好本席今天特別看了一下業務報告"},{"start":11762.898,"end":11773.603,"text":"第一點就是創新經濟其中五大信賴產業但我想也跟昨天我在交易文化委員會來討論的這個用電的概念人員的部分"},{"start":11774.629,"end":11800.13,"text":"經濟部自己親口講說因為現在考量到半導體跟AI用電的需求大也因此預估2023年到2029年整體用電需求年均成長率已經上修到3%一年成長率3%2023年到2029年我們不算複利的概念它至少6年的時間要上升18%"},{"start":11801.511,"end":11818.02,"text":"那18%的部分我們就說到目前為止即便是賴清德總統到2028年的一個任期你都要有15%的用電成長這是第一個第二今年7月和三廠的一號機要停止運轉"},{"start":11820.539,"end":11844.66,"text":"和三廠二號機明年要停止運轉到目前為止此時此刻台灣的和電發電量占全體台灣的用電6.2%所以我們剛講到2028年要上升15%的用電量我們現在又要降低6.2%的用電所以加起來20%的缺口還有"},{"start":11845.854,"end":11846.154,"text":"我們要達到24-1啊"},{"start":11869.328,"end":11895.447,"text":"24加減125%嘛 對不對23至25%是那現在我們全國的發電排碳大宗其中就是藍莓燃氣發電也就是我們台電那現在2025年的非核家園的規劃有高達八成是用火力發電所以到了2030你要再下修四分之一的排電量、排碳量"},{"start":11896.967,"end":11919.453,"text":"我們現在又是火力發電、火力全開我想請教一來一往之際這樣的一個數字沒有任何政治因素完全都是數學、完全都是數據我做夢我都會驚恐因為這代表說未來的五年內台灣面臨到非常大的能源缺口卓偉你怎麼看?"},{"start":11921.347,"end":11945.743,"text":"分兩個階段,第一個是電的部分其實我在幾次會議我都有詳細問過你有講三方面嘛第一電夠不夠第二低碳電夠不夠第三淨零的目標目前台電的規劃他很肯定是一定夠的那這個其實包括院長當時也問過那電是夠的那我那因為我本身不是主管機關我是覺得所以你是相信台電的講法"},{"start":11946.644,"end":11948.626,"text":"蔡英文政府時代4次5次大跳電都來了,台電沒有跳票嗎?"},{"start":11968.787,"end":11979.412,"text":"電網的問題吧,我至少聽到的是這樣的那我比較有在負責的是這個路徑的問題那路徑問題其實我們現在正在盤點那盤點完的差異我們現在有幾條路徑在走第一個路徑是我們會實驗那個藍綠青的發電我們現在只是填充而已那藍綠青的發電它是一個零碳排的發電"},{"start":11993.379,"end":12014.506,"text":"本席都理解,你也講到是說6月6日的時候你要跟中研院這邊再去做進一步的討論嘛對但是現在藍綠青的部分兩個部分啦第一技術成不成熟還要商榷第二它的發電成本高不高目前看起來它的發電成本是跟再生能源、太陽能的發電差不多也就平均1.5電差不多4塊5左右"},{"start":12017.373,"end":12041.745,"text":"對比其他的發電模式都來著成本高所以我們才會想到是說如果即便藍綠青的發電是技術能夠在短時間內成熟當然這非常的困難因為國際趨勢目前還沒有即便是日本是青年發展最前面的大國到目前為止日本的青年發電也都沒有占到他們的十分之一"},{"start":12043.106,"end":12067.672,"text":"所以主委我現在很務實的要請教其實講到那麼多我都務實的要請教如果你們今天的報告或說你在至少為賴清德總統四年任內規劃國家發展策略要做國家希望工程第一個首要是創新經濟而創新經濟裡面半導體人工智慧你又把它變成是五大信賴產業的其中兩大項"},{"start":12068.812,"end":12097.395,"text":"他是如此需要能源的但能源的缺口現在每年的成長還有我們現在在河山場的一號機、二號機也要在今年、明年來停止那我們到底有哪裡有這些底氣可以來做到本席當然希望我們的產業要發展但重點在於是如果到目前為止我們國發會都還沒有辦法去主導或說建議賴清德政府要不要捨去非核家園這個神主牌的話我們有其他的管道可以做到嗎"},{"start":12099.058,"end":12099.959,"text":"您會不會建議政府部門提出修法的要求?"},{"start":12118.486,"end":12135.486,"text":"因為我們現在是電視,以台電的規劃是夠,夠的話就沒有提出修法有把它算入未來5年每年成長3%成長15%的需求嗎?依台電開會的說法是有的。也有?是有的。您相信嗎?"},{"start":12140.52,"end":12166.59,"text":"你產業的經驗主委本席非常尊重專業所以如果說你只是丟給台電說他認為15%我們常講一句話眼見為憑嘛他的15%哪裡來尤其是過去確實我們不管是電網的韌性不足以及相關的國人會懷疑是說我們到底電夠不夠或是捉襟見肘否則怎麼會一個小小的跳電或事件就變成是全台電網的一個停擺"},{"start":12167.861,"end":12178.937,"text":"那如果說未來5年要成長15%今年明年又少了6%的核電一來一往是20%你認為5年內台電有準備多出20%的發電量嗎?"},{"start":12182.35,"end":12207.325,"text":"按照他的說法,他其實準備的量是...是夠的,就是火力發電、火力全開所以我們沒有辦法減碳減碳另外跟委員報告,現在還有一個就是現在已經有一些廠商也開始裝藍綠青的這個除能做備援那這個東西也是另外一種綠電的發展那如果我們將來在鼓勵上面走的話他會讓我們的金融路徑應該是有機會達到"},{"start":12209.826,"end":12226.463,"text":"現在已經有安裝了,已經在用了那個比例有多少?我都不好意思戳破了各位,我很務實的提,我只想請教因為您在這幾次的媒體報導都已經講得非常好我也認同你務實的想法看起來你是沒有擁抱非核家園這樣的神主牌"},{"start":12228.542,"end":12247.513,"text":"還是你有?粉絲不要誤會你會不會堅持非核家園?按照2025年的計畫其實2025年shut down之後其實就沒有核電廠了以目前現實的面子所以你也不會建議以國發會主委的高度你來自產業你也不會建議這4年要重啓核電?"},{"start":12249.013,"end":12274.827,"text":"他決定在於我們的電準備夠不夠是啊,所以我剛剛講啦我剛剛講的是說你相不相信台電說他們準備是夠的嘛如果說要有兩成的用電缺口第一你相信台電那就代表是說你覺得準備夠所以你這四年的任期假設你可以做滿四年這四年的任期你不會建議重啟核電但如果說你認為說這兩成的電力缺口是有疑慮的是不夠的"},{"start":12275.447,"end":12298.495,"text":"或是說您再進一步去了解台電的狀況發覺可能會有缺口那可能你就會建議重啟核電但是政府現在是你們在當家你們在執政啊所以你一定要讓而且最重要是什麼最重要的是不管你用再生能用其他能源來講產業能不能相信這個能源是穩定的進一步來說服產業投資在台灣"},{"start":12300.458,"end":12317.239,"text":"您來自產業,您一定更了解產業的想法嗎?有,其實我們不斷都有在溝通是,所以您到底您現在今年的供電狀況是大家知道你不要講今年嘛,我們現在講到2028年至少賴清德總統第一任的任期嘛對,我們得面對一個實際的現實是就是說"},{"start":12319.962,"end":12345.306,"text":"如果今天假設缺電的話其實要重啟核電那按照整個法令程序他起碼要在5年他絕對是緩不及急所以我如果是我我不會建議你不會建議重啟核電因為我們要建議的會是一個怎麼樣盡快達到先達到供電穩定那基本上我從台電的計畫來看他是有他一直有在monitor這段"},{"start":12349.062,"end":12363.073,"text":"本席今天只是想要確認我們國發會主委的態度我不帶任何預設立場因為有些個人都有各自的預設立場但是如果說您今天這是您的態度的話"},{"start":12363.874,"end":12364.574,"text":"是的是的"},{"start":12380.97,"end":12406.033,"text":"好,我們期待你剛剛講的我希望啦還是可以諸位如果說之後有機會可以再跟台電進一步的瞭解因為您是國家發展的火車頭所以說產業的部分、能源的部分以及您過去講到這三方面我覺得都希望你站在產業的角度來好好的思考做整體的評估好不好好謝謝,謝謝諸位謝謝"},{"start":12412.315,"end":12437.891,"text":"接下來我們請謝一芬委員請做詢答謝謝主席我想要請我們劉金青主委我們再請主委謝委員早主委早安"},{"start":12439.827,"end":12463.218,"text":"我其實很想要瞭解當我們把就是氫能的發展然後把它設定成國家能源的這個目標之一但是你有沒有什麼具體的專法或者是你認為在政府部門裡面應該有就是說有什麼部會共同來推動"},{"start":12464.699,"end":12492.72,"text":"你們國發會有沒有做相關的規劃那以及有沒有訂出相關的期成額例如好像中研院他們的濾清的發展那到底什麼時候我們能夠就是說有一個訂定的目標我們在幾年後要就是說可以生產出多少的清能或者是那要能夠有加清站能夠蓋出多少座的加清站有沒有這樣具體的規劃"},{"start":12495.171,"end":12520.738,"text":"目前是沒有但是有一個有一個大的工程的計劃確定是在明年會推動那就是在電廠裡面去裝設濾清的轉換的實驗工程那這個工程出來以後他實驗效果不錯之後就會進行到其他的機組去那達到零碳排的路徑在台電的部分嗎對在台電那這個案子已經申請上來了"},{"start":12521.978,"end":12536.043,"text":"我們還沒有合定我們還是希望再做一個細部的檢討跟規劃那就會往下走那這個話這個是一個零碳排的一個做法那另外就是在民間企業開始現在也過去每一家都會有備援電力"},{"start":12536.923,"end":12562.049,"text":"那大家開始也在也有一些廠商開始在在拋棄傳統的這個這個柴油發電機改用這個藍綠青的方式在做在桃園現在這些都有些廠商在做那這個這個部分他的備用電力也是一個綠綠電的部分他是藍綠青的綠電那這個這個如果也同時有我們如果能夠同時推廣下去的話那他會讓我們的淨零碳排的路徑是應該是有機會達到的"},{"start":12563.669,"end":12580.559,"text":"那如果就是說你都沒有定定一個目標的時候我們就沒有辦法知道說我們的電力成長的就是說電力的成長有沒有藉由濾清的方式那如果不是藉由清能的方式我們還有什麼其他的方式"},{"start":12582.994,"end":12600.988,"text":"我們現在的目標是用近鄰的角度去定的在2030年要降24%的降低24%加減1的降低那這個目標是存在的我們是以這個目標反推回來來看碳必須減少多少的"},{"start":12601.728,"end":12627.493,"text":"對,可是我們青城的發展有辦法就是達到就是我們電力的缺口嗎?跟委員報告一下以前我的公司我們有一個永續發展公司那其實我們全球一直有在做這種濾清的研究那這個研究呢其實在歐洲目前來講在德國的Fost的這個工業區也好法國的那個渡輪也好在阿姆斯特丹的垃圾車也好在歐洲現在在做一個實驗室一個貨運"},{"start":12629.053,"end":12650.505,"text":"那連空中巴士都定了2035年他要達到氫能源的飛機的發展那這整個都在走的時候我們當時整個全球的研究那下來是2030年會開始進入技術成熟的推動那到2035年會商轉的成熟期商轉的成熟期"},{"start":12651.125,"end":12670.24,"text":"可是你現在沒有辦法預估?對,那這個過渡期我們用的是藍綠青藍綠青現在是已經在運作了就是有民間廠商在用了然後有我們在準備在法利亞電廠也做類似的實驗但是我是說那如果未來萬一電力的成長有缺口的時候怎麼處理?"},{"start":12672.506,"end":12692.352,"text":"那個是我們會滾動式的去去去去挖取他嗎對那何能的那何能會不會成為就是我們在這個缺口外的選擇好像沒有排除我說新的新的呃行政院那個團隊沒有排除是不是呃他是"},{"start":12693.217,"end":12701.382,"text":"他是一個來不及喔就是當我們發現他不足的時候一定會來不及那如果是我們當時是用比較用瓦斯的話那天然氣的話我們可能會採取這個購買國際綠電憑證來彌補"},{"start":12708.598,"end":12712.04,"text":"當要重啟的時候臺電要寫一本非常厚的一個報告書 這個報告書他們大概是要寫一年半"},{"start":12725.248,"end":12753.688,"text":"然後進到河岸會之後河岸會審核大概是一年半以後回復改善那回復改善要多久就要看台電改多久那這個來回的過程裡面應該會在可能會到5年的時間然後之後要得到PA review要找國際電廠來檢核它是不是安全可以開啟所以現在目前的相關的修法是不是趕不及演繹的時間目前來看是趕不及那是不是要修專法"},{"start":12755.353,"end":12779.403,"text":"我對專法不是那麼理解但是就河安會的說法是從現在來看的話他們是認為是來不及那來不及的話可能我們從我們得解決產業的問題的話所以現在就是台電用他現在的方法在做解決那他的方法是什麼就是如果有需要會增加機組那包括幾個那會不會增加碳排"},{"start":12781.548,"end":12785.351,"text":"您們都用購買綠電憑證?沒有,不只綠電憑證,還有碳捕捉技術,還有我們現在實驗藍綠氫的發電。這個計畫其實是比較大的計畫,因為它還有要買藍綠氫的機組。"},{"start":12798.901,"end":12814.762,"text":"可是你們就是說用這樣子藍綠青的機組有辦法降碳排嗎?就是能降多少?因為你們目前規劃是要降多少?藍綠青是零碳排他是零碳排的那我們目標在2030年是要降24%"},{"start":12816.625,"end":12818.726,"text":"是因為你沒有辦法預布嗎?還是你沒有確切的目標?沒有"},{"start":12833.72,"end":12845.747,"text":"還是你這個目標沒有辦法跟我們說?不是沒有喔,我們其實我們已經算了我們已經算了那目前從各種我們的路徑減下來的話呢我們目前呢大概還有7%的缺口那會由這個藍綠青來補足這一塊我們目前是這樣還有綠電憑證的購買來補足這一塊"},{"start":12851.892,"end":12857.196,"text":"就是7個那這樣的話目前來看是有機會但是因為這是一個比較大的實驗所以我們還是要看協助他實驗是實驗還是事辦計畫他是一個事辦計畫他實驗兩年了抱歉我講錯了他實驗結束了現在是要進入大量商轉的一個計畫他不是實驗吧因為我們的電力發展是經不起實驗的"},{"start":12880.674,"end":12895.121,"text":"他是一個示範的計畫吧?是不是?示範計畫還有再來就是AI的部分喔那AI是不是就是說在國際上AI都是一個高耗能的這樣子的一個產業喔"},{"start":12896.161,"end":12921.087,"text":"那未來在跨部會的檢討裡面會不會要求AI的資料中心以及AI的整個就是運算的部分必須要使用綠電那如果AI的運算中心要使用綠電的話那到底對於我們綠電的需求會增加多少嗯"},{"start":12925.865,"end":12952.839,"text":"AI中心要不要綠電還是要看廠商所面對的客戶需求然後這個是還是要看廠商的需求那我們政府部門會不會要求就是AI資料中心以及運算他的運算的部分是不是應該要用綠電?這個就我了解目前不然他如果是高耗能的情況下"},{"start":12954.264,"end":12955.444,"text":"接下來我們請李博毅委員請做詢答"},{"start":12991.023,"end":12992.624,"text":"委員會主席劉靜清主委"},{"start":13008.397,"end":13034.503,"text":"過去我曾經在高雄市政府服務過那對於研考對於整個市政府的方向大腦其實我知道這是非常重要的職位那到現在國發會到過去我也看了主委的相關的這些過去的資歷過去為企業領航那現在要為台灣領航我覺得這是非常關鍵的"},{"start":13035.663,"end":13063.648,"text":"那賴總統當然行政院左院長當然用人跳脫框架不是只有人跳脫框架這個人在現在政府的運作的思考應該也要跳脫框架但是又不能跳太開整個領航的過程裡面跳脫框架對於台灣現在主要的產業的需求對於剛剛很多委員垂詢用電到底"},{"start":13065.566,"end":13087.451,"text":"主委的想法看法這幾天很熱鬧你的說法都上了媒體版面到今天的這些回應的過程越來越小心越來越小心的用語當然是好的但是跳脫框架的思考我覺得還是目前臺灣的產業包含電子產業包含半導體產業包含AI未來"},{"start":13088.331,"end":13111.199,"text":"都需要像主委這樣子來為臺灣的這些主要的產業的命脈來帶領幾個問題想要簡單的就叫主委包含黃仁勳現在仍在臺灣他來臺灣絕對不是來吃小吃絕對不是來玩樂他來臺灣一定有相關的想法跟製程想要找臺灣的半導體產業臺積電包括臺積電等等的做一些討論"},{"start":13115.72,"end":13127.588,"text":"那這一些我相信主委也會做相關的掌握之外對於最近的國際情勢包含美國的電動車跟特斯拉跟中國電動車的競爭之間未來台灣有這些關稅的問題未來這些車"},{"start":13133.732,"end":13154.343,"text":"可能進來台灣有可能會影響到台灣相關的產業等等的這些也請主委可以做一些評論跟分析讓我們未來的我們其他的部會有一些想法最重要我曾經在上個月我做了我們男子產業園區的"},{"start":13155.384,"end":13171.476,"text":"議員．"},{"start":13171.656,"end":13193.744,"text":"再多的電都不夠企業沒有節制的用電但是企業需要用電再怎麼想辦法我們也要把電生出來這是我在處理這個男子產業園區的用電之後的想法但是隨著過去的產業布局都半導體產業布局都在新竹那現在南台灣包含台南高雄嘉義"},{"start":13194.524,"end":13222.309,"text":"目前的整個台積電的布局也已經逐漸的形成所以有很多相關周邊的這些配置的交通建設在陳建銘院長之前都已經包含國發會都已經開完會的包含高雄的男子交流道引道捷運子線還有台鐵立體化等等的這些也都請主委一併的要對於產業發展之外的這些交通建設一併的做合理的布局來主委請你做一個簡單的回應就我剛剛幾個問題OK"},{"start":13223.649,"end":13249.38,"text":"好第一個電動車的部分其實可以看到美國現在的政策是保護國內的電動車產業那台灣現在也正在開始那我不知道現在因為我不是這個全責範圍但是我講國家的整個產業的整體考量還是要必須做一個總檢討的考量那這個是電車的部分那屬於電網的部分目前當然我是"},{"start":13253.189,"end":13267.174,"text":"對於民生用電跟供應用電看起來是可以有有一定的切割所以他的整個管理目前來講我沒有看到特別有很大的問題"},{"start":13268.274,"end":13293.65,"text":"那至於工業區的整體發展目前如果整個交通單位整體單位送上規劃有送上來的話我們在工件上面的重點我們都會陳建仁院長之前合併包含國發會合併的相關的建設也請主委一併的繼續來高雄看一下那也對於周邊的交通產業建設一併的做一些關心那我們同仁寺回報是幾乎都合併的好謝謝好"},{"start":13298.235,"end":13315.671,"text":"現在請舒巧惠委員做詢答舒巧惠委員舒巧惠委員不在現在請陳培宇委員做詢答好謝謝主席那有請主委謝謝國發會主委"},{"start":13326.292,"end":13343.19,"text":"主委辛苦了真的如同剛剛委員說的你願意跳入火坑但是我更要說有來自業界的聲音我相信大家會更樂於有看見像這樣子的主委怎麼說呢因為等一下跟主委討論的相信主委您在過去業界工作經驗當中一定有遇到類似的問題來下一頁"},{"start":13345.012,"end":13348.594,"text":"在國發會的業務報告裡面我們看到國發會說要積極優化投資策略審議還有投資決策的過程然後搭配總統新創地方創生的投資政見要把125億元往後帶到250億未來4年評估增列投資預算目標4年後達到1500億投資量能我們非常樂見這個願景但是我們要跟主委報告一個我們辦公室從過去一年我地補上任之後一直在追蹤的一個議題相信主委您過去的業界經驗"},{"start":13374.568,"end":13374.768,"text":"法規障礙法規障礙"},{"start":13396.067,"end":13417.054,"text":"被罰錢也好、被開罰、或者是被檢舉、同業之間的討論跟競爭甚至是公部門之間對於這些新創事業的不理解導致很多法規確實對於新創事業有很大的障礙尤其在地方創生議題從都市計畫、建管、消防、食品加工、觀光、導覽它都很有可能落入國發會所要輔導"},{"start":13418.254,"end":13419.636,"text":"主委您來自業界你過去在創業或者是在從事產業工作歷程當中你一定有經歷過所謂的法規障礙對不對"},{"start":13429.949,"end":13454.377,"text":"我是我是我們大部分其實都是會盡量閃避法規就是不要去碰它了因為修法都很困難嘛我們有時候會選擇不做或者是做一些比較不觸動法規的事情好但是您現在身為主委我想這個話我們就不要再說我們是不是就想辦法來協助更多地方創生的團隊我來跟主委分享我們遇到哪些問題來下一頁"},{"start":13456.658,"end":13484.813,"text":"我們從去年10月就一直拜託國發會當你們在花很多的經費跟補助給很多地方創生團隊的時候他們所面臨的法規障礙到底國發會了不了解國發會不能只發錢必須要協助這些新創事業進行跨部會法規障礙的溝通結果呢國發會給我們到今年1月為止給我們的資料告訴我們說經營地方小旅行相關事業就會被規定要成立合法的旅行社"},{"start":13485.914,"end":13514.439,"text":"老屋的部分有老屋的問題原住民傳統飲食有原住民傳統飲食跟食品安全衛生法規的問題主委當我們的年輕人帶著熱情帶著熱誠帶著愛故鄉的心回到故鄉做中小型地方創生的時候做地方創生創業的時候我們難道告訴他們就迴避法規嗎所以我相信主委是不是可以從今天開始我們一起來關心這些地方創生事業他們面臨的法規障礙"},{"start":13516.547,"end":13534.858,"text":"好的,我們願意去了解看看有沒有什麼可以改善的有很多很多主委我手上有非常非常多案例可是因為我時間有限可是我們通常都會希望不要只解決個案我們一定有機會透過法規的盤點通案來討論這些事情好不好"},{"start":13535.759,"end":13535.799,"text":"是的。"},{"start":13563.154,"end":13590.791,"text":"好 那我們辦公室最後因為我們辦公室也會積極協助這些地方法規遇到的困境跟障礙可是真的需要你們跨部會協助他們那更多更多詳細的問題跟到底這些問題有哪些面向需要國發會的力量我們之後會再找時間跟國發會積極討論那今天呢因為是主委您第一次業務報告我們就先跟您分享在地方創生也許是過去您比較不熟悉的中小型的、微型的、地方年輕人的是您過去的大型企業所沒有接觸過的對象"},{"start":13592.152,"end":13614.079,"text":"拜託主委您上任之後我們一起來關心這些願意回到地方的年輕人好嗎好的謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝我們現在請陳冠廷委員做發言陳冠廷委員在陳冠廷委員不在現在請羅明財委員做發言羅明財委員不在羅明財委員不在現在請張祺凱委員做詢答"},{"start":13638.737,"end":13638.838,"text":"主席"},{"start":13648.471,"end":13672.887,"text":"主委你第一遍來,先幫你加油,幫幫你打氣。因為你是AI專家,產業界風評不錯啦。我今天聽你的簡報,過水準。是值得啟齊的國外會主委。謝謝委員。不過,我要提醒,不要背那些背離事實、危言聳聽甚至邏輯不通的話,特別是政治語言的影響。"},{"start":13675.793,"end":13688.196,"text":"大家想像一個畫面現在13位有誰敢試探台積電的商業機密核心價值台積電是我們的護國神山啊怎麼會有立委說我們要去試探把台積電找來試探他的商業機密"},{"start":13703.311,"end":13729.628,"text":"試探他的核心的這個技術那有什麼問題?他一定被罷免嘛對不對?這個政黨要被唾棄嘛所以主委你以後有立委問你政治性的原因不要隨便點頭喔對啊!邱議員邱委員講到立法院之前刑事法第59條15他說這個是侵犯人權嗎?事實是什麼?"},{"start":13731.345,"end":13751.54,"text":"立法院之前刑事法第95條講的是什麼?出席人員有下列情形者你是可以拒絕證言的或者你根本就不要講話你可以不要表達意見有下面四項 看這個第一個 涉及到國家安全、國防跟外交之國家機密事項"},{"start":13752.659,"end":13777.531,"text":"第2個,若是辦聽證會．你來出席一列的聽證會調查的目的．跟所提出的結論．或者要對質．你可以拒絕證言．也可以不要表達意見第三個,依照《刑事訴訟法》規定．你可以拒絕的事項第4個放中了,你看涉及受到法律明定．保障之個人隱私或其他秘密事項"},{"start":13780.37,"end":13791.519,"text":"這四個不就是在保障個人跟企業嗎?台積電第一個不會被找來啊!第一個找來所有的企業跟個人都收到保障啊!這給邱委員講的95條59條之5的真相第二個我們看看59條之1什麼東西都要講給立委聽嗎?NO!"},{"start":13802.827,"end":13822.544,"text":"有7萬人選嗎?尤其是涉及外交跟國防或者其他法令應該遵守秘密的要開什麼?秘密會議耶!秘密會議任何人在這邊喔!包括立法院聽出來他如果洩密是要法辦的!聽證會一定要公開嗎?也NO喔!不是喔!"},{"start":13823.991,"end":13845.079,"text":"如果有以下的條件要開這個聽證會．他可以不公開用秘密的方式來做聽證．第一,如果牽涉到個人的隱私遭受到不當的侵害之餘．第二,個人的生命或身體或其他自由遭受到威脅．第三個重點,就是說台積電或任何企業邀請到我們的地方"},{"start":13846.701,"end":13860.752,"text":"我先強調平常立法院要辦要企業來幾乎是非常非常不可能的所以你牽涉到的是非常大的公眾這個利益台積電沒有犯法為什麼要找台積電來呢我們去統計了第4屆到第10屆所有辦的這個調查委員會"},{"start":13866.756,"end":13889.131,"text":"第4屆到第10每一屆你未繫尼才辦4次的調查委員會等於1年才一次很嚴格而且有這麼多的規定你看這個條文的第三條有牽扯到營業秘密遭受到不當侵害之餘你可以不要講話而且開秘密會議所以台積電的know-how怎麼會流出去呢?"},{"start":13893.168,"end":13911.223,"text":"好,剛剛邱委員委員又提到一個很嚴重的這個事情這個事情歐洲商務已經澄清了好幾次了嘛他引述了,現在已經傳的東西這個文章,這個文章也作者方英格印出來澄清啊他說他那個講過什麼台灣的國會改革是什麼荒謬他說這個荒謬的詞是誰講的?"},{"start":13915.342,"end":13938.221,"text":"林晉棟、立法院的好專員林智傑他特別澄清喔 這個不代表他的立場也不代表歐洲商會的立場 重點還不會過位他完全 他說我的文章 你們引述我的文章我的文章裡面寫得清清楚楚 沒有寫到會影響到跨國企業投資台灣的意願所以 主委你是很壯硬的 大家對你是有期許的"},{"start":13939.673,"end":13960.59,"text":"你來這邊當然會碰到一些政治的語言可是政治語言你不要隨便點頭我剛剛這樣一路解釋清楚沒有侵犯到人權沒有侵犯到企業而且你看歐洲商會澳洲我們這次這個修法很重要就跟美國學啊調查權跟聽證會不就是跟美國學跟歐洲重要的國家學啊包括帝國、法國、英國啊"},{"start":13962.147,"end":13983.16,"text":"澳洲的國家怎麼會反對呢?所以對於政治性的語言我們今天把它解釋清楚好 主委我們來談一下用電的問題你是AI的專家你為了理想要落實AI的產業化但是現在大家都問一個同樣的問題我們台灣的發電你看下一張台灣的發電在你積極要推動的這個AI"},{"start":13988.803,"end":13998.365,"text":"在市區的公車電動化、電動車的興起、在市的半導體、精密晶片的這個發展這都很耗電對不對?"},{"start":14000.308,"end":14028.102,"text":"這都非常耗電嘛,所以你現在的重責大任是什麼?要供應一個非常充裕而且便宜的這個電我知道早上已經很多人問過你核電的事情,我們看一下,簡單看一下三位經濟部長到童子賢跟你的上一任拱明星都提過,我們一直跳下來我今天只有問一個最重要的事情,我請教你連D7,七個主要的工業國他都講了,不再反對核能,我們再往下看"},{"start":14030.782,"end":14034.661,"text":"你說你不排斥嘛可是有三個原則啦當然你今天已經解釋很多個了"},{"start":14036.121,"end":14063.123,"text":"我最關心的是什麼AI又增加了三成以上的這個電力今天人經濟部的處長他也是很專業嘛對不對他都出來講了至少一年要增加3%嘛那我要問喔用這個很簡單的數學問題你要增加3%的這個用電你要講AI產業增加三成可是我們今年7月27可是三成醫藥機就停了明年的517又停了"},{"start":14064.343,"end":14064.583,"text":"三天一次會議"},{"start":14079.863,"end":14102.177,"text":"這個台電是有準備機組啦但是他現在的準備機組還是在以天然氣為主啦我就台電的說明以廢發電嘛對不對因為台電一定跳起來啊一定跳起來嘛所以不好意思因為今天我比較激動因為我要澄清很多的真相這對錢比跟對企業都很重要的我最後做一個最後的一個要求來"},{"start":14104.593,"end":14120.602,"text":"民進黨進步能夠打破八年這個魔咒代表他們要承擔更大的這個責任現在不能只有臺灣民眾黨像我在經濟委員會我不得提案我們要解決核電廠、核三廠能不能業力這個問題國民黨已經提案了可是更需要承擔的是誰執政黨啊包括你國發會的主委"},{"start":14122.677,"end":14148.413,"text":"你現在不是只有聽台電的講話或是說你數學的問題你用電量一直在增加對不對包括AI的產業要發展半導體你看台積電一直在新的擴廠嘛對不對像我家裡人他要來嘉義設廠我都很高興啊問你電到底夠不夠所以我做一個具體的一個建議請你要可能至少這三點要很注意的核電到底要不要用你們可以考慮可是相對的至少這三個目的要轉去改觀"},{"start":14149.033,"end":14173.998,"text":"第一個新北市跟台電那個干涉雛雲草這個爭議不要擺在那邊互相踢皮球我對中央政府有責任去給它處理得好一點第二個合同如果嚴厲就是你剛才講的有碰到法規問題要五年嘛可是不能夠等停電跳電大停電的時候還說不會有啊你要把它準備好嘛所以這個法定到底有沒有可能解得開你像美國的例子美國加州啊"},{"start":14174.895,"end":14192.626,"text":"他就突然發現電池不夠了啊他本來核電廠也是這樣沿的對不對他就同時一邊檢查他是安全一邊就沿用啊德國在碰到烏合戰爭的時候也是這樣子啊他本來要停了緊急修法經過安全之後又用了一段時間嘛這個有潛力可行啊美國加州的歷史"},{"start":14193.882,"end":14193.902,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":14215.402,"end":14241.922,"text":"現在請王美惠委員做詢答王美惠委員王美惠委員不在現在請徐欣盈委員做詢答徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在現在請蔡易瑜委員做詢答謝謝主席那我們是不是有請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":14253.197,"end":14266.374,"text":"主委,我想跟您請教一下,因為現在我們看到很多的企業,包括台積電,包括聯電,包括鴻海,他們都宣誓要加入RE100"},{"start":14267.825,"end":14292.101,"text":"所以加入R100的台灣企業可以說是越來越多那甚至有些企業他還自我要求包括台積電他認為說他本來預計是2050年達到R100那還說要提早10年那如果以這樣來說的話為什麼這些企業都要積極的要進入R100的一個自我要求呢?"},{"start":14294.438,"end":14318.852,"text":"我的前公司也是R100的企業主要都是基於企業社會責任那第二個大家認為對地球暖化必須扮演一部分重要的責任所以大家就加入就大家會加入那請教主委這個R100它包括的其中一個叫做說承諾100%的使用再生能源那這個再生能源到底包括不包括核電"},{"start":14320.453,"end":14335.955,"text":"再生能源不包括核電那也就是說這一些企業他們要未來他們使用核電就是不使用核電他們會100%的使用再生能源那這再生能源不包括核電也不包括火力發電"},{"start":14336.596,"end":14362.244,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":14362.604,"end":14381.534,"text":"那就是說這樣就好多企業啊、台積電啊﹖未來他要用的電他也要達到RE100﹖他就是100分之100﹖我就是要太陽能或是風電﹖或者是有其他更新更環保的能源出來﹖是的﹖沒有錯吧﹖好這是第一個﹖第二個就是說﹖好那你現在核電"},{"start":14382.962,"end":14396.971,"text":"在歐盟已經陸續把核電認為說他是屬於綠電的一種綠電沒有還沒有他是要得到最終儲存的才可以提出來就是說前提就是要最終儲存"},{"start":14398.152,"end":14399.412,"text":"這個我不是那麼理解可能要再問"},{"start":14429.916,"end":14441.924,"text":"我們沒有辦法處理因為這個最終儲存也不可以到國外他必須在國內目前我們只能做乾式儲存我們目前都是乾式儲存我們沒有一個地方是最終儲存場所以在這個前提之下"},{"start":14447.088,"end":14468.681,"text":"我們的核電他也沒有進入到歐盟他認為說已經有最終儲存的一個核電有辦法最終這個東西可以處理得更好所以你看起來就是說台灣目前的核電除非又有更先進的核融合的技術的產生不然以現在這樣的核電然後沒有辦法最終儲存的話"},{"start":14469.201,"end":14487.09,"text":"基本上又不符合歐盟定義的綠電也不屬於RE100要求企業要100%的再生能源的電力沒有錯吧是的那以這樣的前提之下我覺得我們台灣的整個用電的發展目前走的這條路就是正確的"},{"start":14489.549,"end":14511.12,"text":"注意,我是覺得我們要對大家的腳步,我們要有信心。我們不能說大家,就是說很多事業的發展,你說風電、綠電的發展,也許在開發的過程中,有些生意人他已經用了一些比較不乾淨的手段,然後他必須要被繩之以法,這個我們都主張這個要嚴辦。"},{"start":14513.571,"end":14522.916,"text":"他用不乾淨的手段去取得到發電的資格,這要他頒,這要他發電資格,要他拿回去,這我們都支持啊。但是你不能因為這幾個老鼠屎,你知道我們整個醫療都沒得吃嗎?"},{"start":14532.38,"end":14559.516,"text":"我都不吃肉,他有吃肉可能就有老鼠屎,怎麼可以變這樣呢?所以我是覺得說我們的產業、我們的用電的一個政策,我們還是要把它抓緊方向,然後不能夠這樣一直調進、一直調進,然後又找不到最好的方法,這樣反而是讓我們好不容易跨出了這一步,而且已經走到了整個再生能源的比例一直在翻高的時候,我們現在如果說這樣起來是不對的,我覺得不能這樣,好不好?"},{"start":14563.658,"end":14584.032,"text":"謝謝第二個就是我想要跟主委聊一下因為我們國發會畢竟是掌管我們國家的整個 那就不會輸 整台車你算發很多入的啦 整個風雄主委你要去聽那我一直覺得台灣有一個單位特別保守 就是食藥署"},{"start":14585.886,"end":14614.775,"text":"食藥署的保守就是說事實上我們看到有好多齁所謂我們先不要說藥品還是保健食品這些都讓他們未來去定義可是我們看到台灣人很多會到國外去買藥品回來包括說現在有很多人說因為不要說療效我們就說像退黑激素像現在有很有名的叫做NNN這個叫做什麼燕瘤這名字我不會唸NNN療法喔好多人去國外買"},{"start":14616.537,"end":14626.448,"text":"去國外然後去買回來為什麼呢?就是我們食藥署不允許在國內銷售那又因為不允許在國內銷售就創造了很多騙局"},{"start":14628.609,"end":14655.66,"text":"你只要主委你可以去網路你去google一下你打這三個字NNN他就會出現的叫做NNN騙局這個騙局是怎樣?因為台灣沒辦法合法銷售所以就有很多不肖的廠商他就在裡面的身份有沒有也沒有他就在那個標籤在你logo這樣打起來就很多人趨之若鶩因為這個東西現在要去國外買回來然後如果水貨回來再轉手賣都好貴"},{"start":14657.769,"end":14683.508,"text":"就好多人會趨之若鶩說有這種可以買的比較便宜我去買,結果後來發現說它的療效又沒有符合應該要有的標準就變成說我們的食藥署把很多東西聚資一些比較先進的一些科學的一些技術我們都把它聚資千里之外都不讓它進來然後後來就會變成說有一些不孝的廠商"},{"start":14684.656,"end":14684.676,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":14717.385,"end":14741.791,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請賴會員、賴會員、賴會員、賴會員、委員不在現場好,報告委員會我們發言的登記範圍的委員除了不在場之外其餘都已經發言完畢、詢答結束我們由委員林黛樺委員、陳冠廷委員所提的書面執行列入記錄刊登公報那書面執行以及未及答覆的部分請相關單位一周之內"},{"start":14742.611,"end":14765.487,"text":"以書面答覆並複製本會本日所列的議程處理完畢我們要謝謝劉朱偉以及列席的官員媒體朋友以及各位同仁大家辛苦了我相信經過早上一整個早上劉朱偉應該會很快適應好我們現在謝謝一次主任委員謝謝散會"},{"start":14792.291,"end":14792.652,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":14821.661,"end":14821.921,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14844.833,"end":14845.653,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":14873.66,"end":14874.321,"text":"多謝您的收看。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}