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謝謝主席 主席辛苦 主席今天排這個案非常的棒也代表少子化事情我們都還有很多努力改善的空間所以請理事好不好"},{"start":21.127,"end":44.354,"text":"也是剛剛一句話很感動每一個都是我們的心肝寶貝那每一個竟然都是我們心肝寶貝那我們就面對這樣的少數化環境然後採用全世界各國比較優劣的政策套在我們台灣是否可行那其他的各國如果相關的政策是執行不當不好那我們當然就不能引用錯的"},{"start":45.374,"end":64.894,"text":"還是重蹈覆轍的這樣的政策在台灣實施嗎應該是怎麼說才對嗎那好我要講少子化的過程裡面我們先來討論剛剛就最後黃委員在詢問的這種劣童的事件是否只有加重其刑者的手段而已他可能是要還是要全面向來做討論應該最好就是要事先的預防"},{"start":68.477,"end":97.857,"text":"然後如果一旦發生之後就應該有相對應的這些措施來讓這樣傷害降到最低嘛那新北市跟台北市當時為了承接這個小朋友互踢皮球這個大家應該記得猶新嘛怎麼會發生這個事情然後這個事情到底公部門又站在衛生最高的主管機關還有教育的主管機關還有法務的這個主管機關到底三個單位做如何相關的應用措施不讓這樣的憾事持續在發生"},{"start":98.498,"end":101.506,"text":"有過共同檢討之後得出相對應的結論可以讓我們簡單扼要清楚一下嗎"},{"start":106.704,"end":128.577,"text":"報告委員 這個部分陳文剛我們市長剛剛有報告就是說這裡面有現在有我們那個兒少權利權利法裡面有加重刑責的規定另外在刑法裡面也有那這個部分是不是請是委員針對那兩岸的檢討我們都有一個重大的一個檢討機制那目前看起來說的確在橫向在地方"},{"start":129.337,"end":154.808,"text":"橫向聯繫上面還有一些環節可以再加強那我想這個部分已經目前透過不管監察院也好這個行政機關也好我們都加緊在這個部分做一些防範那另外對這個特別是性侵害的議題那將來在修正上面可能不能單純就單一事件甚至還有一些潛在被害人這個部分我想法務部他們也做了一些調整以上"},{"start":156.329,"end":183.882,"text":"好,是您自己提到了嘛,剛才講列統,你現在講到信心的部分的那你現在講的最後的結論是華為部現在在做相關調整那衛務部、那教育單位有做什麼樣的積極的因應的一些作為,有嗎?來,是不是請教育部,來來,請教育部跟華為部就上來好不好因為他剛剛特別提到嘛,信心的部分我們先提到列統致死,那現在提到信心,那我就來請教你們信心的事情"},{"start":185.001,"end":188.623,"text":"現在出現了一個新的名字叫劣童者各位聽過吧 劣童者他們在潛伏學童的周遭用自己師長、長輩的權勢去傷害幼童可能會做性侵 也可能會做暴力甚至以劣童相關的一個行為所以應該各位都還耳熟能詳"},{"start":209.755,"end":229.19,"text":"台北市幼兒園毛案 毛俊生案 都清楚嗎目前到底是累積幾名受害者我們現在就來檢視了啦 好不好你們所有相關的因應作為我們現在目前 我們的幾乎是39名39名 39名是自己掌握還是監察院的新聞稿"},{"start":232.564,"end":248.039,"text":"是在整個通報案件裡面掌握的通報案件掌握的從2022年最初最初是查獲6名血統累積2022年兩年過後現在累積到39名這是具體有查出來的會不會再有遺漏的"},{"start":249.332,"end":266.282,"text":"會不會還有潛在受到學童的數量會再爆出來我想潛在可能包括有聽聞或目睹這些都是那我想目前我知道北市政府他們有成立一個兒童的輔導專案叫幼童的輔導專案"},{"start":269.404,"end":288.399,"text":"針對這種潛在的被害人還是有機制可以去輔導好 那我們等一下就來討論輔導的機制在哪裡好不好判決書上有清楚記載證明狼屍仗著自己是負責任的孩子然後又有管理監視器的權限"},{"start":290.118,"end":315.844,"text":"華為部針對這樣有前科還是說有這樣跡象的情況之下怎麼去讓持有監視器權限的人有相關的規範嗎有嗎這個事件是他因為有監視器的權限才無地放矢到極致那這事情發生之後華為部有針對這部分跟衛護部跟教育部來做相關的研擬這部分要怎麼解決要怎麼處理要怎麼因應"},{"start":317.044,"end":342.733,"text":"報告委員那有關於監視器的部分是屬於教育部的權責那我們法務部的部分呢其實就是在當下我們是就是及早啟動相關的偵查機制然後盡早去做一個保全證據的動作我知道因為我的時間有限啦抱歉啦齁我說說這一個這一個這一個加害人他本身就是有掌握監視器的權限那我們知道這個案子是這樣那我們相關的單位有針對這個事件"},{"start":345.356,"end":372.295,"text":"的這個點有去做相關的未來的因應作為嗎有嗎因為他有掌握監視器的權限所以他才可以無敵放矢到極致嘛有嗎那報告委員因為在幼兒園裡面他並沒有強制一定得要設監視器但是如果他有設監視器的話那國教署是有一個注意事項引導縣市政府應該怎麼做後續的處理同時也要求縣市政府在我們的"},{"start":372.762,"end":390.324,"text":"注意事項後面再訂定相關的規範所以目前是有相關的引導機制是 相關的引導機制但是因為我們沒有強制他一定要架設這個監視系統所以我們也沒有辦法去規範這個有使用監視系統權限的人他必須要有什麼樣的條件"},{"start":391.519,"end":420.219,"text":"所以就沒有嘛這個事件就是這樣發生嘛所以我們針對這個事件我們沒有特別再去做相關的一些討論跟因應嘛簡單講就這樣嘛 有就有 沒有就沒有好不好我的時間有限齁所以我要表達說郵照法沒有強制要求一定要但是如果有設一定要有相關的處理機制包含他影像的保存怎麼去做調閱那教育部國教署是有一個注意事項給縣市政府來引導他們包含學校跟幼兒園"},{"start":421.608,"end":432.638,"text":"來遵循以上如果有事他就是要遵從相關的機制去做這樣的保存嘛對不對那我談的是保存的這個人就是加害者你們怎麼規範我的問題就很這麼簡單你應該是回答我這個點才對嘛"},{"start":437.383,"end":457.393,"text":"沒有 就是沒有嘛這個事件就是他嘛那這個事件你們就是沒有處理嘛簡單講就這樣 這第一件事情請次長聽看看啦所以這一個藍絲財政院犯案毫不掩飾嘛他可以利用小朋友午休時間還是等待家長接送時間就可以馬上上下其手速度之快"},{"start":460.692,"end":488.159,"text":"數字是變而且小朋友午休的時間是單獨的小朋友一張床嗎還是一個通鋪而且他是在通鋪裡面做對小朋友信心的事情你們有調查嗎在他做這個事情的過程裡面旁邊的小朋友有看到這些小朋友要怎麼處理他雖然沒有被直接侵害但是他有看到你們有掌握有如何做處理簡單回答我就好 簡單時間的關係好不好"},{"start":490.922,"end":516.636,"text":"有嗎就有關在幼兒園裡面他的睡鋪究竟是通鋪或床鋪目前在設施設備標準裡面他沒有建議一定得要做什麼處理但是要有相關的這個機制那另外就是說對幼兒部分來講我們是加強對孩子自身保護的部分一定會有那園內如果有任何人看到有這樣的事項來講目前的通報是要在24小時裡面一定要通報他如果沒有通報在幼照法裡面的罰則是"},{"start":517.917,"end":541.929,"text":"你怎麼一直講我們都沒有辦法對上話就很奇怪了偵查院調查報告你們剛才跟我講的受害的小朋友39位那我現在跟你講的已經有間接的小朋友你們有掌握嗎?有嗎?那我只把那個死警講給你聽他或許是在一個通風裡面做這樣的一個行為那也有小朋友看到你們有掌握嗎?你就簡單回答這樣就好了嘛有嗎?如果在這邊再延伸出來會有多少人?"},{"start":547.862,"end":562.386,"text":"會有多少人你們有實際坐下來好好去討論我簡單講一個例子就好嘛一個班級可能一個小朋友他因為家庭的因素他因為意外他因為車禍他因為因為家長殺傷自殺這個小朋友這一班可能全班都要接受輔導了現在是一個加害人在做性侵的行為的時候另外很多小朋友又看到了"},{"start":577.553,"end":604.802,"text":"這個部分你們有處理嗎你們有掌握嗎先講掌握再講應應再講處理啦有嗎報告委員所有的氣象都是教育局在做調查如果調查之後這個班級有目睹相關的我們目前會補助相關的輔導經費可以來協助這個幼兒園的運作怎麼叫做你們有相關的輔導經費現在在講什麼我在問你前置作業你再跟我講你有經費所以你們背三的還不夠就對了啦"},{"start":607.864,"end":612.626,"text":"你怎麼一直不針對我的問題來做回答呢?你怎麼一直不針對我的問題來做回答呢?你怎麼一直不針對我的問題來做回答呢?你怎麼一直不針對我的問題來做回答呢?"},{"start":624.741,"end":648.744,"text":"我只是說 他有直接影響的 直接侵害的現在跟你講到間接的 你們怎麼做舞蹈然後掌握迷路器這一個人 你們怎麼去做相關的一些營業再規範我現在聽起來這兩個面向幾乎都沒有啊你再跟我講所有相關的預算去做什麼你們就沒有去掌握你有預算邊站的地方 你也是一樣沒有辦法去申請啊沒有辦法去執行啊"},{"start":650.962,"end":661.845,"text":"你看喔 針對目睹的狀況你們有掌握嗎我就focus在這地方目睹的狀況的幼兒你們有掌握嗎沒有就講沒有嘛我剛跟委員報告因為所有細項是教育局在做查查但如果說他們真的有目睹的孩子我們在輔導的機制裡面是可以來做處理的"},{"start":680.097,"end":703.422,"text":"你有找過他們有沒有教育局跟你回報還是你主動去跟教育局了解說你們有針對這一塊去做處理嗎?有嗎?沒有就沒有嘛高院判決書上又寫的這是另外一個層次問題,你再聽一下判決書上又寫得很清楚其中受害的B童是因為以受害的A童跟自己的媽媽透露"},{"start":704.457,"end":728.612,"text":"有看到狼屍在捕摸米桶也因此才發現米桶也受害這是慢慢延伸出來的這些都是直接受害的喔那我剛剛講的是間接受害的我用了一個班級可能有其中一個小朋友他因為車禍死亡他因為家庭巨變他因為公共意外死亡全班都必須接受輔導喔對不對那這個間接的有目睹的你們怎麼處理"},{"start":733.939,"end":750.032,"text":"你們有掌握嗎人數是多少你簡單跟我回應一下就好嘛有處理嗎有掌握嗎跟委員報告分兩個層次一個是具體個案以台北市信義區那個案件因為案發之後他很快教育局就讓這個"},{"start":751.842,"end":764.979,"text":"這個機構停招然後解散那所以在這個案件上面的確那個孩子我們說的哀傷輔導這一部分的確在那個情境下面是沒有辦法進行但北市也發現這個問題因此他在幼兒部分他做"},{"start":768.744,"end":793.864,"text":"做了專業輔導的一個專案也就是說這些孩子可能到移到其他學校去上課如果有需要他還是可以申請這個部分是北市確實有掌握這個部分那我覺得委員監的那針對整個制度部分我們可以在判決書中其實你們如果有細看你們確實有做下來把相關的資料彙整完之後這個寫得清楚"},{"start":795.037,"end":809.431,"text":"既有性侵的同時 也有暴力的對待那我們要不要詢問一下兩個層次來談性侵的有幾位被暴力對待的有幾位間接看到性侵的有幾位被暴 間接看到暴力的對象有幾位你們有盤整出來嗎有嗎"},{"start":813.055,"end":841.052,"text":"你現在是面對多大的群體受害的情況之下直接跟間接的有相關的站在衛生主管機關、教育主管機關、保護主管機關去做好好的探討、調查、探討然後研究然後來做相關的一些因應嗎?有嗎?監察院在2月5號要求台北市政府保護部督促所屬的這些單位重啟行政調查及司法偵查"},{"start":842.898,"end":865.704,"text":"怎麼會搞到這樣所以我在這邊要求我要請召委我們一起要求衛福部、教育部、保護部除了繼續調查有沒有其他受害的血統必須針對110年10月一直到112年的7月這個幼兒的小朋友要存立的專案輔導因為不僅是受害者其他與狼屍接觸到的小朋友會不會因為其言行受到影響都要追蹤與關懷有嗎"},{"start":868.174,"end":894.892,"text":"如果沒有一個月一個月給我們完整的你們怎麼樣的應應的作為趕快去補強然後給委會做一個報告可以嗎可以嗎可以啦齁不只如此不是只有台北市這一案還有新北市還有這個台中某國小棒教練姓七學童那新北市的這個部分"},{"start":896.024,"end":922.361,"text":"在昨天的報紙就出來嘛對不對利用上為期時間侵犯學童目前發現有12名學童受害整個時間誇長達三年這個是誇兩年另外新北市誇三年喔會不會跟台北市一樣陸續爆發更多而且你知道報道中家長特別管理當主動學院校方伺服可以提供諮商資源時校方輔導是"},{"start":924.382,"end":946.01,"text":"請回答剛發生再觀察看看是不是事實對不對好不只如此不只如此事發一個月後家長意外得知校方輔導室借檔繁殖家長不願學校提供協助然後造成孩子在古董諮商支援時錯過黃金治療時間確診創傷壓力症候群這誰要負責這件事情誰要負責"},{"start":957.252,"end":976.164,"text":"然後新北市的加防中心回應是加防中心強調經過資源整合以安排孩子進行諮商輔導孩子要接受諮商輔導還要等到你們大人們去做資源整合之後才有辦法做這些事情一個凱凱案已經造成多大的"},{"start":977.721,"end":991.567,"text":"傷害然後讓整個公部門啊你們要疲於奔命的去做相關的回應跟修正啊對不對現在一下子台北市39位這是直接喔還有間接的喔現在又有新北市還有台中台灣如果是持續這樣的環境你的少子化再怎樣去加碼不要過去的456變成567你就變成789啦"},{"start":1008.277,"end":1019.267,"text":"小朋友生出來的是出生率的你還是一樣沒辦法往上啦小朋友出生之後他可能在幼兒園就必須要夭折了不可能只有看出生率不看成長率吧"},{"start":1025.697,"end":1038.796,"text":"所以我請次長好不好我剛剛提到這些問題是不是通通一個月相關單位嘛對不對 你會著急嘛大家如何來做因應的作為嘛然後實際上掌握的人數你們主動來跟我們報告嘛可以嗎 好不好"},{"start":1041.961,"end":1048.748,"text":"謝謝 委員真的非常感謝您的那個基礎我知道你剛才說的不是直接又間接啦那些又潛在 那些相關的輔導措施我們趕快來組成一個專案 還有包括相關的地方政府我們都拿出來 一個月以來"},{"start":1060.519,"end":1066.304,"text":"因為這個營運很大啦,小孩子雖然沒有穿穿到,小孩子沒有穿穿到,但是他看到他尊重老師,對這個孩子做這個行為,對這個孩子來營運,你看多厲害。所以很恐怖的事情啦,好不好?市長,謝謝趙偉,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時48分）謝謝主席，主席辛苦，主席今天排這個案非常棒，也代表少子化的事情，我們都還有很多努力改善的空間，所以請呂次，好不好？","呂次剛剛一句話讓人很感動，每一個孩子都是我們的心肝寶貝。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：每一個既然都是我們心肝寶貝，我們就面對這樣的少子化環境，然後比較全世界各國優劣的政策，研究套在我們臺灣是否可行，其他各國如果有相關的政策是執行不當、不好，那我們當然就不能引用錯的，還是重蹈覆轍地讓這樣的政策在臺灣實施，應該是這麼做才對嘛！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：好，我要講少子化的過程裡面，我們先來討論剛剛就是最後黃委員在詢問的這種虐童事件是否只有加重其刑責的手段而已？可能還是要全面向來做討論，應該最好就是要有事先的預防，一旦發生之後，就應該有相對應的措施來讓傷害降到最低。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：新北市跟臺北市當時為了承接這個小朋友，互踢皮球，大家應該都記憶猶新，怎麼會發生這樣的事情？對於這件事情，公部門不管是衛生最高的主管機關，還是教育的主管機關，還是法務的主管機關，到底三個單位應該做如何的相關因應措施，不讓這樣的憾事持續再發生，有過共同檢討之後得出相對應的結論，可以讓我們簡單扼要地了解一下嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個部分誠如剛剛我們司長報告的，在兒少權益法裡面有加重刑責的規定；另外，在刑法裡面也有。這個部分是不是請司長說明？"],["張司長秀鴛：是。委員，針對那兩案的檢討，我們都有重大的檢討機制，目前看起來，的確在地方的橫向聯繫上面還有一些環節可以再加強，我想這個部分目前已經透過不管是監察院也好、行政機關也好，我們都加緊在這個部分來做防範。另外，特別是對於性侵害的議題，將來在蒐證上可能不能單純就單一事件，甚至還有些潛在被害人的部分，我想法務部也做了一些調整。以上。"],["劉委員建國：好，您自己提到了嘛，剛才是講虐童，你現在講到性侵的部分了，你講的最後的結論是法務部現在也在做相關調整，那衛福部及教育單位有做什麼樣積極的因應作為，有嗎？"],["呂次長建德：是不是請教育部？"],["劉委員建國：請教育部跟法務部上來，好不好？因為他剛才特別提到性侵的部分，我們剛剛先提到虐童致死，現在提到性侵，我就來請教你們性侵的事情。現在出現了一個新名詞叫獵童者，各位聽過嗎？他們潛伏在學童的周遭，用自己師長、長輩的權勢去傷害幼童，可能會做性侵行為，也可能會做暴力行為，甚至於虐童的相關行為。各位應該都耳熟能詳臺北市幼兒園毛畯珅案，對不對？清楚嘛？目前到底是累積幾名受害者？我們現在就來檢視了啦，好不好？你們說有相關的因應作為嘛。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，目前我們的紀錄是39名。"],["劉委員建國：39名是自己掌握還是監察院的新聞稿？"],["張司長秀鴛：是在整個通報案件裡面掌握的。"],["劉委員建國：好，從2022年最初是查獲6名學童，兩年過後，現在累計到39名，這是具體有查出來的，會不會再有遺漏的？會不會還有潛在受害的學童數量再爆出來？"],["張司長秀鴛：我想潛在可能包括有聽聞或目睹這些都是，目前我知道北市政府有成立一個幼童的輔導專案，針對這種潛在被害人還是有機制可以去輔導。"],["劉委員建國：好，那我們等一下就來討論輔導的機制在哪裡，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["劉委員建國：判決書上有清楚記載這名狼師仗著自己是負責人的孩子，又有管理監視器的權限，法務部針對這樣有前科或有這樣跡象的情況之下，對於持有監視器權限的人有相關的規範？有嗎？這個事件是因為他有監視器的權限才無的放矢到極致，這件事情發生之後，法務部是否有針對這個部分跟衛福部及教育部來做相關的研擬，這個部分要怎麼解決、要怎麼處理、要怎麼因應？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：報告委員，有關於監視器的部分是屬於教育部的權責，我們法務部的部分其實就是在當下我們就是及早啟動相關的偵查機制，儘早去做一個保全證據的動作。"],["劉委員建國：我知道，因為我的時間有限，抱歉。我是說這一個加害人本身就是有掌握監視器的權限，我們知道這個案子是這樣，相關的單位有針對這個事件的這個點去研擬未來相關的因應作為嗎？因為他有掌握監視器的權限，所以他才可以無的放矢到極致嘛。"],["許副署長麗娟：報告委員，因為在幼兒園裡面並沒有強制一定要設監視器，但如果它有設監視器的話，國教署是有一個注意事項引導縣市政府應該怎麼做後續的處理，同時也要求縣市政府在我們的注意事項後面再訂定相關的規範，所以我們目前是有相關的引導機制。"],["劉委員建國：是，有相關的引導機制，但因為我們沒有強制它一定要架設監視系統，所以我們也沒有辦法去規範有使用監視系統權限的人必須要有什麼樣的條件，所以就沒有嘛。"],["許副署長麗娟：因為沒有……"],["劉委員建國：這個事件就是這樣發生的嘛，所以針對這個事件，你們有沒有特別再去做相關的一些討論跟因應？簡單講就是這樣嘛，有就有，沒有就沒有，好不好？我的時間有限。所以我要表達的就是說……"],["許副署長麗娟：跟委員報告，因為幼教法沒有強制要求一定要設，但是如果有設就一定要有相關的處理機制，包含影像的保存、怎麼去做調閱，教育部國教署是有一個注意事項給縣市政府來引導他們，包含學校跟幼兒園來遵循。"],["劉委員建國：如果有設，他就是要遵從相關的機制去做這樣的保存嘛，對不對？但我談的是保存的這個人就是加害者，你們怎麼規範？我的問題就這麼簡單，你應該是回答我這個點才對，沒有，就是沒有嘛，這個事件就是他嘛，這個事件你們就是沒有處理嘛！簡單講就是這樣，這是第一件事情，請次長聽看看。所以這一個狼師才在幼兒園犯案，毫不掩飾，他可以利用小朋友午休時間或是等待家長接送時間，就可以馬上上下其手，速度之快；另外，小朋友的午休時間是一個小朋友一張床嗎，還是一個通鋪？而且他是在通鋪裡面做對小朋友性侵的事情，你們有調查嗎？在他做這個事情的過程裡面，旁邊的小朋友有看到，這些小朋友要怎麼處理？他雖然沒有被直接侵害，但是他有看到，你們有掌握要如何做處理嗎？簡單回答我就好，時間的關係。"],["許副署長麗娟：有關在幼兒園裡面的睡鋪究竟是通鋪或床鋪，目前在設施設備標準裡面並沒有建議一定得要做什麼處理，但是要有相關的機制。另外，對於幼兒的部分，我們是加強對孩子自身保護的部分，這部分一定會有，園內如果有任何人看到這樣的事項，目前的通報是要在24小時內一定要通報，如果沒有通報，在幼教法裡面的罰則是還滿嚴的。以上。"],["劉委員建國：不是啦！不是、不是，你講的跟我問的一直都沒有辦法對上話，就很奇怪啦！監察院調查報告，你們剛才跟我講的受害的小朋友是39位，那我現在跟你講的是已經有間接的小朋友，你們有掌握嗎？我只是把實際的可能性講給你聽，他或許是one by one，他或許是在一個通鋪裡面做這樣的行為，也有小朋友看到，你們有掌握嗎？你就簡單回答，這樣就好了，有嗎？如果在這邊再延伸出來會有多少人？你們有沒有實際好好去討論？我簡單講一個例子就好，一個班級可能一個小朋友因為家庭的因素、因為意外、因為車禍、因為家長的燒炭自殺，這個小朋友的這一班可能全班都要接受輔導了。現在是一個加害人在做性侵行為的時候，另外有很多小朋友看到了，這個部分你們有處理嗎，你們有掌握嗎？先講掌握，再講因應，再講處理，有嗎？"],["許副署長麗娟：報告委員，所有的細項都是教育局在做調查，如果調查之後，這個班級有目睹相關的，目前……"],["劉委員建國：你們是督導單位耶。"],["許副署長麗娟：我們有相關的輔導經費可以來協助這個幼兒園的運作。"],["劉委員建國：什麼叫做你們有相關的輔導經費？現在在講什麼，我在問你前置作業，你在跟我講你有經費，所以你們被刪的還不夠就對了？"],["許副署長麗娟：委員剛剛提的是……"],["劉委員建國：你怎麼一直不針對我的問題來做回答呢？召委，你可能要再給我一點時間，我覺得這種事件再這樣下去，少子化的情況會越加劇嚴重，政府再編更多的預算，如果今天小朋友生出來的環境是如此……","前面是提到有直接影響的、直接侵害的，那我現在是跟你講到間接的部分你們怎麼做輔導，然後掌握監視器的這個人，你們怎麼去做相關的因應在規範裡面，我現在聽起來這兩個面向幾乎都沒有啊，你現在跟我講說有相關的預算去做什麼，你們就沒有去掌握，你有預算編列也是一樣沒有辦法去申請啊，沒有辦法去執行啊！你看喔……"],["許副署長麗娟：委員，我可以再補充一下嗎？"],["劉委員建國：你看喔，我這邊特別再強調一下，針對目睹的狀況，你們有掌握嗎？我就focus在這個地方，目睹狀況的幼兒，你們有掌握嗎？沒有就講沒有嘛！"],["許副署長麗娟：我剛剛跟委員報告，因為所有細項是教育局在做查察，但如果真的有目睹的孩子，我們在輔導的機制裡面是可以來做處理的。"],["劉委員建國：你有沒有掌握？是教育局跟你回報，還是你主動去跟教育局了解他們有沒有針對這一塊去做處理？有嗎？"],["許副署長麗娟：整起案件……"],["劉委員建國：你沒有就沒有嘛！高院判決書上寫的，次長，這是另外一個層次問題，你要聽一下，判決書上寫得很清楚，其中受害的B童是因為已受害的A童跟自己的媽媽透露有看到狼師在撫摸B童，也因此才發現B童也受害。這是慢慢這樣延伸出來的，這些都是直接受害的喔！那我剛剛講的是間接受害的，我舉例說假如一個班級其中有一個小朋友因為車禍死亡或家庭巨變或是因為公共意外死亡，全班都必須接受輔導，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：那這個間接的、有目睹的，你們怎麼處理？你們有掌握嗎？人數是多少？你簡單跟我回應一下就好，有處理嗎？有掌握嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：跟委員報告，分兩個層次，一個是具體個案，以臺北市信義區那個案件，因為案發之後，教育局很快就讓這個機構停招，然後解散，所以在這個案件上面，有關哀傷輔導這一部分，的確在那個情境下是沒有辦法進行，但北市也發現這個問題，因此它在幼兒部分做了一個專業輔導的專案，也就是說這些孩子可能移到其他學校去上課，如果有需要他還是可以申請，北市確實有掌握這個部分。那我覺得委員今天的……"],["劉委員建國：司長，你還是沒有回答我的問題。"],["張司長秀鴛：對，針對整個制度部分，我們可以在……"],["劉委員建國：判決書中，你們如果有細看、有確實坐下來把相關的資料彙整，這邊寫得很清楚「既有性侵的同時，也有暴力的對待」。那我們要不要區分一下兩個層次來談，性侵的有幾位？被暴力對待的有幾位？間接看到性侵的有幾位？間接看到暴力的對象有幾位？你們有盤整出來嗎？有嗎？你現在是面對多大群體受害的情況之下，直接跟間接有相關的，站在衛生主管機關、教育主管機關、法務主管機關去好好地調查、探討、研究，並且來做相關的一些因應嗎？有嗎？","監察院在2月5號要求臺北市政府、法務部督促所屬單位重啟行政調查及司法偵查。怎麼會搞到這樣？所以我在這邊要求，我也請召委，我們一起要求衛福部、教育部、法務部，除了繼續調查有沒有其他受害的學童，必須針對110年10月一直到112年7月這個幼兒園的小朋友，要成立專案輔導，因為不僅是受害者，其他與狼師接觸到的小朋友會不會因為其言行受到影響，都要追蹤與關懷，有嗎？如果沒有，一個月給我們完整的因應作為，趕快去補強，然後給委員會做一個報告，可以嗎？"],["呂次長建德：好，可以。"],["劉委員建國：可以啦！不只如此，不是只有臺北市這案，還有新北市，還有臺中某國小少棒教練性侵學童。新北市的部分昨天報紙就出來，利用上圍棋課的時間侵犯學童，目前發現有12名學童受害，整個時間長達三年。這個是跨兩年，另外新北市是跨三年，會不會跟臺北市一樣陸續爆發更多？"],["呂次長建德：是、是。"],["劉委員建國：而且你要知道，報導中家長都特別反映，當主動詢問校方是否可以提供諮商資源時，校方輔導室僅回答「剛發生，再觀察看看」，是不是事實？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，不只如此，事發一個月後家長意外得知，校方輔導室竟然反指「家長不願學校提供協助」，造成孩子在苦等諮商資源時，錯過黃金治療時間而確診創傷壓力症候群。這件事情誰要負責？然後新北市的家防中心回應是，家防中心強調經過資源整合後已安排孩子進行諮商輔導。孩子要接受諮商輔導，還要等到你們大人們去做資源整合之後，才有辦法做這件事情。一個剴剴案已經造成多大的傷害，讓整個公部門，你們要疲於奔命地去做相關的回應跟修正。現在一下子臺北市有39位，這是直接的喔！還有間接的，現在新北市又發生，還有臺中，臺灣如果是持續這樣的環境，少子化再怎樣去加碼，不要過去的456變成567，你就變成789，小朋友的出生率還是一樣沒辦法往上啦！小朋友出生之後，他可能在幼兒園就夭折了，不可能只有看出生率不看成長率吧！所以我請次長，我剛剛提到這些問題，是不是通通一個月？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["劉委員建國：相關單位你要召集嘛！"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["劉委員建國：大家如何來做因應的作為，然後實際上掌握的人數，你們主動來跟我們報告，可以嗎？好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：委員，真的非常感謝您的指導，我知道你剛才說的不是只有直接，還有間接、潛在的，以及相關的輔導措施，我們趕快來組成一個專案小組，還有包括相關的地方政府，我們都找來，一個月以內。"],["劉委員建國：是，因為這個影響很大啦！"],["呂次長建德：真的。"],["劉委員建國：小孩雖然沒有被侵犯到，小孩雖然沒有被怎麼樣，但是他看他尊重的老師……"],["呂次長建德：就是有目睹到。"],["劉委員建國：對小孩做這種行為，這對小孩未來的影響，你看會有多大？"],["呂次長建德：對，當然。"],["劉委員建國：這很恐怖的事情，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：是、是。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝次長、謝謝召委。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：我們請劉召委排個專案。"],["劉委員建國：好。"],["主席：我剛剛的感覺是這樣，劉建國委員是說目睹了這個行為的小孩，你們到底有沒有掌握、有沒有輔導，那你們的回答是把那個幼兒園關掉，好像一個是AM，一個是FM，不同頻率啦！這樣是不對的。","邱鎮軍委員說他有很重要的事，所以他質詢完我們再休息。你說5分鐘就好了。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-4","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","盧縣一","黃秀芳","劉建國","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","張雅琳","楊曜","李坤城","麥玉珍","陳瑩","鄭正鈐","黃捷","林德福","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造\n友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}