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麻煩請李遠部長"},{"start":12.449,"end":39.859,"text":"好有請李部長部長 黃委員你好我想延續因為今天一早上大家都很關心央廣這件事件您剛剛也再一次重申身為文化人不能接受有這樣子被詐領的一個案件嘛 是不是好 但是我覺得不要高高舉起輕輕放下這件事情為什麼感覺到那麼的嚴重我覺得還是幾個部分我們看一下現在新聞已經揭露出來的狀況"},{"start":41.311,"end":70.852,"text":"檢報 有嗎來 下一張 下一張好 2000多筆異常這是現在廉政署暴露出來的嘛那當時是有委由來 我們上一張當時是文化部有要求央廣要委外調查但調查報告沒有公開那我想請教當時的委外調查報告結案了沒有結案嘛 有沒有送到文化部"},{"start":72.708,"end":74.27,"text":"文化部有任何一個長官有看到嗎這個要問一下他的報告送過來之後當時的都有足跡成河什麼事"},{"start":85.621,"end":106.468,"text":"當時都有逐級成合都有成合 有成合到部長嗎是的 那成合之後也因為我們會針對中間其實有些比較缺失的太陽我們也在111年的時候就進行了移送檢調的動作那目前就是在偵查當中所以過去三年多已從111年的時候送檢調到現在才再次來做處理 是不是這樣當時這個報告列為不公開是誰的決定是文化部還是央廣"},{"start":116.383,"end":125.531,"text":"因為這一份查核報告是央廣進行委外的部分是文化部要求央廣委外調查那但是到最後調查報告不公開這是誰的決定"},{"start":128.493,"end":147.378,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個案子他這個會計師裡頭的資料有非常多的個資而且有些人並不見得違法所以當時董事會是有除了向文化部向商城還有董事會報告之外並沒有對外公開好來部長來我們再看下一張"},{"start":153.862,"end":174.615,"text":"當時的行政報告其實行政調查其實就是高高舉起輕輕放下錢沒有落入到任何一個口袋但是認定沒有弊端這是現在這邊秀出來的那結果時任的職員還都有留在原職有人退休還有人高升我想請教部長"},{"start":176.676,"end":199.245,"text":"經過上禮拜到這禮拜這樣紛紛擾擾已經你今天早上我想你今天來備詢一定是有備而來嘛有沒有了解到底有多少涉案的人如今還高升有沒有了解並沒有人高升啦並沒有人高升所以說這個新聞寫錯我不知道他寫一人升任組密一人退休"},{"start":200.662,"end":205.217,"text":"這個是我要請教單事人他有沒有生竹蜜有沒有退休我真的不知道"},{"start":206.058,"end":235.164,"text":"你真的不知道還是你不了解還是從頭到尾沒有想要去關心這件事情部長這是你的態度問題欸本席剛剛很認同或說很尊重你的態度也認為是說有弊案那個時候你不是當部長所以你不了解不怪你但是從上禮拜五出來這件事件央廣昨天發了新聞稿央廣新聞稿當然寫得很漂亮冠冕堂皇改了多少改了多少但重點在於是2015年到2021年七年多"},{"start":236.104,"end":261.978,"text":"的時間裡面高達兩三千筆的錯誤單據那還有這些錯誤單據不是只是央廣的部分喔它裡面甚至有提到是說也有跟其他的公家機關互相的賬物的往來不清也因此才會有廉政署出手嘛廉政 為什麼是有廉政署出手就是因為是公務體系內部的不管是支出 不管是收入廉政署來處理啊部長"},{"start":267.54,"end":279.513,"text":"您覺得這都沒您的事還是好官我自為之反正有啊那時候有行政調查報告啊有簽到文化部啊沒錯啊央廣的董事長剛剛有講了但那個時候的部長不是我啊"},{"start":280.503,"end":300.75,"text":"不是這樣子好官我自為之也不是這樣子其實我剛才一直跟你們講我幹了五十年幹過多少機構這種事情當然是有我完全不能忍受當然不能忍受我也不能忍受但是我不能夠忘下我更沒有辦法接受事實上發生事情之後還沒有辦法公開透明為什麼不能忘下結論因為這裡面一定很複雜嘛人為的 結構的"},{"start":305.351,"end":328.161,"text":"財務的 會計的 法律的我看起來喔非常複雜複雜是人搞出來的因為當時文化部已經要求委外調查為什麼要委外為什麼不是我們部內調查就是怕部內調查可能官官相護嘛那我既然已經委外調查了結果調查出來的結果之後以一個錢沒有進任何人口袋然後就結案了事"},{"start":332.383,"end":350.578,"text":"那部長我還是尊重喔我尊重你要看不慣路見不平拔刀相助要來調查要來要求用你的態度讓所有文化部下面的單位或者是至少我們讓我們的公務體系知道未來不會有這樣的狀況您要怎麼做"},{"start":353.18,"end":367.936,"text":"再找另外一個委外單位來調查不會不會 我們目前剛剛已經講過公管集團的董事會已經要求成立一個專案小組那這個部分我會責成專案小組的負責人會是誰我不曉得 誰"},{"start":375.682,"end":390.068,"text":"這個就是央廣的事情我們現在釐清到現在了就是央廣內部的問題四年前為什麼文化部要求委外調查就是認為說不要公關相護那結果做出來的調查報告是這個樣子你現在再過來四年後"},{"start":391.195,"end":407.127,"text":"廉政署在處理廉政署的工作但你自己有內部調查的作業那我現在請教內部調查的作業到底是部長宣誓來說我來帶領這個專案小組來查弊案來檢視到底有沒有不合理還是你責成哪一個市長"},{"start":409.267,"end":424.183,"text":"這跟處理霸凌案的事件我覺得類似啊霸凌案的事件絕對不能讓那個單位自己主管自己調查如果說那個單位主管自己調查的話那抱歉一定是大事化小 小事化無嘛那我現在已經有出來這樣的狀況而且"},{"start":426.286,"end":444.372,"text":"上禮拜新聞你也有表示檢調調查中文化部的態度是完全透明好嘛 那檢調調查 廉政署調查的歸廉政署調查但你文化部到目前為止你之前 今天早上我有聽到喔你說一個月裡面也要給我們相關資料"},{"start":445.692,"end":456.177,"text":"那我們可以期待什麼一個月如果你到現在都不知道說誰來負責做這件事情我怎麼期待我一個月之後收到什麼樣的資料會不會又是兩頁三頁部長"},{"start":461.857,"end":487.916,"text":"我想我在這邊跟你保證我請次長我們一個次長層級的次長來盯整件事因為他比較負責全部的因為本身我想請王次他本身也是在我們部裡面負責這種霸凌性平的他剛好也是負責這個單位可以嗎我在這裡跟你保證因為我也不希望這種事情一直拖下去王實施次長"},{"start":488.696,"end":515.651,"text":"負責整個專案報告來把這件事情從過去四年的機密文件機密報告沒有公開的也做一個釐清以及現在的狀況一個月後可以給我們立法院可以讓國人知道到底這個事情的經過是怎麼樣去標籤化沒有要個資但去標籤化釐清事實真相是嗎"},{"start":516.84,"end":543.431,"text":"我跟委員報告我們自己在我們文化部部內律己慎言對那個姓平英隆人我相信百分之九十九點九會說有靈丸當然真的很有信任也都絕對不會通常枉法但是既然已經出現了我們就把它給釐清 好嗎是不是部長是會後再跟紅委員報告好不好不好意思"},{"start":547.369,"end":551.461,"text":"好 部長辛苦請回好 我們接下來請伍麗華委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":750,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時22分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請李遠部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["李部長遠：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席想延續剛才的問題，因為今天早上大家都很關心央廣這個事件。您剛剛也再次重申，身為文化人不能接受這種被詐領的案件，對不對？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席希望不要高高舉起、輕輕放下。這件事情為什麼會那麼嚴重？本席覺得和幾個部分有關，我們看一下現在新聞揭露的狀況，其中有二千多筆異常，這是現在廉政署暴露出來的，當時文化部有要求央廣委外調查，但調查報告並沒有公開。本席想請教，當時的委外調查報告結案了嗎？有結案嗎？有沒有送到文化部？文化部有任何長官看到嗎？"],["李部長遠：這個要問一下。"],["吳司長宜璇：報告送過來之後，當時都有逐級呈核。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼意思？有呈核給部長嗎？"],["吳司長宜璇：是的。呈核之後，因為有些態樣有問題，所以我們111年就進行移送檢調的動作，目前是在偵查當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以過去這三年多時間，你們是111年送檢調，現在才再次處理，是不是這樣？當時這個報告列為不公開是誰的決定？是文化部還是央廣？"],["吳司長宜璇：因為這一份查核報告是由央廣委外調查，它和……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！是文化部要求央廣委外調查，但是到最後調查報告卻不公開，這是誰的決定？"],["吳司長宜璇：他們有受一些會計師……"],["賴董事長秀如：因為在這個案子當中，會計師查核的資料裡面有非常多個資，而且有些人並不見得有違法，所以當時董事會除了向文化部呈核，還有在董事會報告之外，並沒有對外公開。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，其實當時的行政調查就是高高舉起、輕輕放下，錢沒有落入任何一個人的口袋，所以認定沒有弊端，這就是調查的內容，結果時任的職員都留在原職，有人退休，還有人高升。本席想請教部長，經過上個禮拜到這個禮拜這樣的紛紛擾擾，以及你今天早上、我想你今天來備詢一定是有備而來的嘛！你有沒有瞭解，到底有多少涉案的人如今還高升？有沒有瞭解？"],["李部長遠：並沒有人高升，我覺得我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：並沒有人高升，所以這個新聞寫錯？"],["李部長遠：我不知道它……"],["洪委員孟楷：一人升任主秘、一人退休。"],["李部長遠：這個我要請教當事人，他有沒有升主秘？有沒有人退休？我真的不知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：你真的不知道？還是你不瞭解？還是你從頭到尾都沒有想要去關心這件事情？部長，這是你的態度問題欸！"],["賴董事長秀如：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席剛剛很認同、也很尊重你的態度，也認為有弊案，雖然那個時候不是你當部長，所以你不瞭解，不怪你，但是從上個禮拜五這個事件出來之後，央廣昨天發了新聞稿，央廣的新聞稿當然寫得很漂亮，冠冕堂皇、改了多少、改了多少，但重點是2015年到2021年這7年多的時間裡面，高達二、三千筆的錯誤單據。還有這些錯誤單據不是只有央廣的部分，它裡面甚至有提到和其他的公家機關往來帳務不清，也因此才會由廉政署出手嘛！為什麼是由廉政署出手？就是因為這是公務體系內部的，不管是支出或收入，都是由廉政署來處理啊！","部長，你覺得這都沒您的事？還是好官我自為之，反正那個時候有行政調查報告簽到文化部，沒錯，央廣的董事長剛才也有講，但是那個時候的部長不是我。"],["李部長遠：不是這樣子，好官我自為之也不是這樣子，其實我剛才一直跟你們講，我幹了50年、幹過多少的機構，這種事情當然是有，我完全不能忍受。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然不能忍受，我也不能忍受。"],["李部長遠：但是我不能夠妄下結論。"],["洪委員孟楷：我更沒有辦法接受的是，事情發生之後還是沒有辦法公開透明。"],["李部長遠：我為什麼不能妄下結論？因為這裡面一定很複雜嘛！人為的、結構的、財務的、會計的、法律的，它非常複雜，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：我看起來，複雜是人搞出來的，因為當時文化部已經要求委外調查，為什麼要委外？為什麼不是我們部內調查？就是怕部內調查可能官官相護嘛！既然我已經委外調查了，結果調查出來的結果是以一個錢都沒有進任何人口袋，然後就結案了事。部長，我還是尊重喔！我尊重你看不慣要路見不平、拔刀相助的來調查，你要用你的態度讓文化部下面所有的單位，至少要讓我們的公務體系知道，未來不能有這樣的狀況，你要怎麼做？"],["李部長遠：目前，我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：再找另外一個委外單位來調查？"],["李部長遠：不會、不會，我們剛才已經講過，就是公廣集團的董事會已經要求成立一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：專案小組？"],["李部長遠：對，這個部分我會責成……"],["洪委員孟楷：專案小組的負責人會是誰？"],["李部長遠：我不曉得。"],["賴董事長秀如：跟委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，來，部長，這是央廣的事情，我們釐清到現在，這就是央廣內部的問題，為什麼4年前文化部會要求要委外調查？就是認為不要官官相護，結果做出來的調查報告是這個樣子，你現在再過來，4年後，廉政署在處理廉政署的工作，但是你自己有內部的調查作業，我現在請教，你們內部的調查作業是由部長宣示的來說，這會由我來帶領這個專案小組來查弊案，來檢視到底有沒有不合理？還是你會責成哪一個次長？我覺得這跟處理霸凌案事件類似，霸凌案的事件絕對不能讓那個單位的主管自己調查，如果是由那個單位的主管自己調查，那歹勢！這一定是大事化小、小事化無嘛！現在已經有出來這樣的狀況，而且上個禮拜新聞出來時你也有表示，該事件檢調正在調查中，文化部的態度完全透明。好嘛！檢調調查，廉政署調查的歸廉政署調查，但你文化部到目前為止，今天早上我有聽到你說1個月內也要給我們相關的資料，那1個月後我們可以期待什麼？如果你到現在都還不知道要由誰來負責做這件事情，那我要怎麼期待1個月後我會收到什麼樣的資料？會不會又是2頁、3頁？部長，你的態度是？"],["李部長遠：我在這邊跟你保證，我會請次長層級的來盯整件事，他會負責全部，我想請王次，他本身在我們部裡面就是負責霸凌和性平的，他剛好也是負責這個單位，可以嗎？我在這裡跟你保證，因為我也不希望這種事情一直拖下去。"],["洪委員孟楷：王時思次長負責整個專案報告？"],["李部長遠：對，他現在不在現場。"],["洪委員孟楷：會由他來把這件事情，從過去4年的機密文件、機密報告、沒有公開的也做一個釐清，以及現在的狀況，1個月後可以給我們立法院、可以讓國人知道這件事情的經過是怎麼樣。我們沒有要個資，去標籤化的釐清事實真相，是嗎？"],["李部長遠：我跟委員報告，我們文化部部內律已甚嚴，對性平零容忍，所以我跟你保證……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我相信99.9%的公務人員真的都很優秀，也絕對不會貪贓枉法。"],["李部長遠：這點請你放心。"],["洪委員孟楷：但既然問題已經出現了，我們就把它釐清，好嗎？謝謝。"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題，我剛才已經承諾你了。"],["主席：是不是時間超過太久？不好意思，是不是請部長會後再跟洪委員報告，好不好？不好意思。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，部長辛苦，請回。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-4","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","劉書彬","葛如鈞","林月琴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","范雲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","葉元之","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}