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不用吵架啦這是你們自己的委員啦第一 他覺得呢因為市場過於競爭 獲益分散所以現在的新聞台主要靠業配置入行銷跟政府標案其實我覺得有些適當的比例本來就這樣啦 OK啦可是當過度的時候它會逐步形成"},{"start":95.572,"end":110.039,"text":"台灣的政媒共生集團你覺得是會逐步形成還是已經形成頗久了你自己的感受跟我們報告依現行的衛廣法規定新聞節目是不能被置入的所以這邊的第一點部分是應該會有法規範的"},{"start":117.463,"end":132.852,"text":"那第二點部分它含色範圍其實涉及的部分有些是不在NCC的職權可以處理的範圍那第三點部分深色屏障換照要大翻新或怎麼樣我覺得這些都可以討論過檢討但是要廣泛聽取"},{"start":136.418,"end":152.228,"text":"這個正媒共生集團我不知道因為我問你這個問題你也沒回答嘛那就含混過去了其實就是現在進行是而且已經嚴重的發生了嘛他認為說現在新聞報導不公啦過度政治立場坦白講如果就藍綠白可能都有"},{"start":153.129,"end":177.167,"text":"都有只是誰多誰少大家也很清楚那最後一個是講今天要談的他也覺得現在的深色評鑑甚至換照制度的實質的效能他真的希望能夠更透明而且要建立公正的評鑑指標與評分這倒我有點擔心因為在這整個過程中他參與評鑑他最後的心得是這樣"},{"start":178.547,"end":197.477,"text":"那我們會覺得 哇靠 那你們在整個評鑑的時候 你自己覺得有一些不夠透明 或者標準有問題那我們回來看一下 在我們中天新聞台 這個幻照博會的一個整個的過程其中一個三大理由 第二個理由就是內控與自律機制失靈"},{"start":199.073,"end":224.627,"text":"我是覺得很好奇啦當然這個北高行他的這個就把你們的就行政這個行政處分啊把它打回來當然你說最高刑他有不同的一個見解這個我都知道可是問題我們要看內容發生了什麼事啊對不對也許法律的界線在那邊剛好沒有超過但是道德標準搞不好有超過嘛"},{"start":226.953,"end":250.265,"text":"這蠻可怕的我們先看一下後面好不好發生了什麼事你們換照的標準中天新聞台申請換照109年的6月8號送件了按照你們之前公布的標準107年你們就有公布一個標準什麼配分多 什麼配分少然後就送進去了"},{"start":251.519,"end":280.788,"text":"做好了然後咧你不到差不多三個月的時間五個月你們11月11號呢NCC突然要更改遊戲規則配分標準的比例不太一樣啊就簡單來講 欸不對啊你哪一個稍微舒適多一點我配分多一點的話你就死了啊我的感受是這樣嘛五天之後呢就運用新的換照這個分配表 生效"},{"start":281.869,"end":304.065,"text":"然後再來再兩天 開委員會哇 天衣無縫啊 你知道嗎我覺得棒球比賽啊 最關鍵的要三振的時候啊中天換照被你們三振了但是有一個魔鬼 他投出一個180K的變化球啊你知道嗎 怎麼變的就投手在那邊沒有投 球從哪裡投過來不知道"},{"start":305.151,"end":330.734,"text":"你是不是覺得莫名其妙嗎你知道嗎也許到那個法的邊界你們還要再去討論博威你們要怎麼樣去弄另外一回事可以這樣嗎一個電視台不要講中天現在準備6666一堆人來換照了一堆人來換照囉你們109年已經換了嘛更新這個標準了哇靠他們6月一送進來可不可以這樣搞法你7月8月"},{"start":333.036,"end":339.622,"text":"對現在最高刑事法院講說你可以這樣搞啊因為你們你們這個很專業你們可以這樣搞那有沒有可能"},{"start":341.17,"end":345.392,"text":"這個表格再來換了你說看幾點補充第一點呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"},{"start":369.5,"end":388.116,"text":"用新的換照部分的話即便用新的換照部分據當時現在的資料來看的話中天當時好像也是處於跟原來用的新換照的配分標準結果是沒有影響的現在主委你知道嗎有時候是一個時機因為你是一個獨立的機關要給人家一個平穩的一個感覺"},{"start":388.837,"end":407.645,"text":"一個一次性的一個比較公信力尤其你遭到重大的一個變革的一個處分你順順的過得都沒人講啦然後你用這樣的一個標準坦白講北高興也看到了嘛雖然這不是最終結果啦但是看到這個問題我覺得你們要去思考"},{"start":408.385,"end":424.365,"text":"一個制度的一個相對的穩定性啊你們想看喔以前早期啊我看以前考聯考啊你有考過聯考嗎大學是聯考嘛你知道嗎每一次我們評論表都出來準備我希望考哪個科系不同的"},{"start":425.026,"end":438.621,"text":"大學科系他有特別數學加50%有一些英文可以加40%我按照我的目標按照我的一個標準我準備了三年要去考的時候結果都已經考完了分數表拿出來如果你改"},{"start":439.91,"end":456.458,"text":"評分的話是真的我覺得很不OK啦那當然你改的這個的部分啦107年到109年我們就看右邊啦評分的標準就是中天最終內控7次跟自律從原本的8分增加了250%到20分"},{"start":460.307,"end":484.583,"text":"那這個部分也不是我說的因為我們至少看到你們在整個這個北高型那也是很多專業的專業的領域的人他提出了這一點我真的是給你建議啊這不是要在翻案什麼東西啊你們以後在處理這樣一個制度的時候我覺得應該要更穩健更慎重你覺得這建議可以接受嗎"},{"start":485.563,"end":495.633,"text":"文的建議是沒問題但是我剛剛跟你講說即便用107年舊的套回去換算的話其實他的分數大概也是很危險的"},{"start":497.469,"end":519.969,"text":"好啦 不要六月一堆電台 一堆人家來弄的時候 你們又弄一些很怪的規矩那最後我想跟你討論一下 這個主秘人黃主秘我看這邊你講了好多次啦 當然可能是跟立法院喊話啦這邊講說 知道啊 只是三位委員啊 沒辦法運作 都講了這麼多嘛然後到了11月20號 你可能周刊完 訪問你報導嘛 說你們"},{"start":524.191,"end":545.658,"text":"將啟動葉克摩條款所以現在NCC委員還是葉克摩躺在那裡嘛對不對所以你覺得這是一個非常嚴重的事情我感覺是這樣你講好多次影響非常大影響名聲非常大所以你做了什麼事情呢你做了就是影響這麼大這麼積極除了跟媒體放話之外你到底具體做了些什麼事情"},{"start":546.698,"end":575.748,"text":"我就請教一下 這個主秘先回答啦代理主委已經才剛上任不過代理主委之前也是NCG佔領都要職很久了你們NCG人事同意案剛剛有委員說對啊 去年4、5月就送進來了然後呢前一段第一學期沒有進度嘛但是連那個行政院長到11月執行的時候11月他還在程序委員會我的天啊"},{"start":576.994,"end":593.895,"text":"院長沒有掌握 你們沒有掌握嗎7月12號7月12號當然因為馬上休會不可能馬上處理7月12號已經過了程序委員會程序委員會還要送到院會第二關 覆委了那你知不知道 你當時清不清楚"},{"start":597.311,"end":611.702,"text":"你清不清楚這個流程已經復違了我們剛才主委已經報告這個其實是在行政院那邊的執掌我們不太可能去掌握這個所以我很緊張葉克摩了要死了到底立法院審議如何我不知道"},{"start":612.796,"end":637.467,"text":"我跟你講你不知道不要亂出去傳謠言那我就跟你講7月12號之後我們交通委員會跟教育委員會聯席就可以審查了那我就請教所以你不知道那個陳主委你在之前你是擔任什麼職務就一直是委員嗎委員之前擔任主秘主秘那你知不知道"},{"start":640.039,"end":655.494,"text":"這些訊息如果是在報章媒體公開的話我們大概都掌握情況不是啦 立法院的系統進去哇 我是趙偉好可怕 你NCC你這樣都叫尊重立法院啊你這案子到什麼部分我告訴你不要再騙人了"},{"start":656.587,"end":681.07,"text":"因為我做過幾屆的召委你們連一個凍結案需要的法案三不五時來拜託召委拜託這個先排那個先排你們完全掌握到你們現在還有一堆的案子現在已經在交委會在帶牌你明明就很清楚嘛我想這個組密我們交委會的組密組密我請教一下現在"},{"start":682.581,"end":708.867,"text":"7月12號已經排入委員會了嘛排入交付審查那副委那召委可不可以排來進行審查按照現在的法律可以還是不可以原則上是可以好就簡單來講那所以不管是陳主委黃祖密你們從去年的7月10號就副委不管你真不知道假不知道都是失職"},{"start":710.137,"end":727.544,"text":"七月休會九月下旬開會了開會了你有沒有拜託來兩位你有沒有拜託我是上會局的召委你有沒有拜託陳書業召委你有沒有拜託教文委會哪位召委拜託哪位召委幫你排案有還是沒有"},{"start":729.673,"end":751.1,"text":"我想應該是有溝通有反應啦跟誰反應啦來黃主席你最後一講過來講一下你拜託了哪一位哪一位召委四位召委嘛藍綠各一位啊我沒有被拜託剩三位你拜託了誰幫你排NCC委員審查因為進入夜客模了我很緊張你拜託了誰老實說啦"},{"start":753.607,"end":761.298,"text":"陳倫我們剛剛主委報告的我們真的有去了解但是你說拜託這件事情那個執掌頭真的是不在我們我們不知道怎麼去拜託"},{"start":762.875,"end":785.944,"text":"拜託排案 你們每次凍結案 這麼拜託召委的不要這樣騙啦 都許志定委員 這個都聽不下去啦不是啦 這個案子 你要拜託很急 大家來排案嘛反正公聽會嘛 大家來講啊 對不對那我是覺得 你們現在這樣的事 你們自己去施執包括現在 現在喔 6月3日要審查 根本來得及啊"},{"start":786.664,"end":796.39,"text":"來得及啊現在案子行政院院長自己不重視自己不重視他說的一快不一慢我認為這個事情一快不一慢因為從今年第一次立法院開議到現在9日開議到現在11月份你知道NCC的人士是哪個委員會來審查嗎那在審查過程中你知道嗎"},{"start":816.055,"end":821.921,"text":"卡在程序委員會復委了兩個月 行政院長還說卡在"},{"start":835.814,"end":863.52,"text":"好 希望再快一點 那12月也沒提12月也沒有提 1月也沒提 2月也沒提 現在3月了我就說不知道你們有什麼陽謀陰謀啊但是我今天直接講清楚你們要擺亂你們要擺亂你們不審就算了那我們是建議啦如果民進黨黨團有什麼樣的建議叫你們不要審那沒關係我們拜託林國成委員來吧 你可以 我今天跟你講囉你急你就拜託因為沒有新案所以過去這四個名單"},{"start":864.76,"end":881.189,"text":"有一個不合法規還有三個可以繼續來審如果你們急你們就這樣做如果你們沒有動作就表示你們不急未來換照產生任何東西來講行政院院長跟通常會你們要負全責現在牌都來得及喔好謝謝 走謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":743,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時29分）謝謝主席，有請陳代理主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：陳主委好。早上我注意你在整個詢答的過程中，感覺跟之前陳律師的風格有所不同，我也瞭解畢竟你比較實務、是整個電信相關的專業出身的，我們希望以就事論事的態度，不要來立法院吵架，你覺得呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：都是要依法行政，發揮自己所知的專業。"],["魯委員明哲：當然很多人期待新的代理主委能夠有新的態度、新的思維。我要請教一下，上一屆有兩位委員離開，當時你們都是經當時行政院長精挑細選，兩位蠻專業的，但是離開卸任的時候特別寫了一個公開的建言，不光是給我們看，最主要是對NCC的建言。其中主要有三點，我之前也問過陳前主委，就感覺吵架了，其實不用吵架，這是你們自己的委員寫的。第一，他覺得因為市場過於競爭，獲益分散，所以現在的新聞台主要靠業配、置入行銷跟政府標案，其實我覺得有些適當的比例本來就是這樣啦，OK啦，可是當過度的時候，這會逐步形成臺灣的政媒共生集團。你覺得是會逐步形成？還是已經形成頗久了？就你自己的感受。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，依現行的衛廣法規定，新聞節目是不能被置入的，所以這邊的第一點部分應該會有法規範。第二點部分，它涵攝範圍所涉及的部分有些是不在NCC的職權處理範圍。第三點部分，申設、評鑑、換照要大翻新或怎麼樣，我覺得這些都可以討論或檢討，但是要廣泛聽取外界的意見。"],["魯委員明哲：有關政媒共生集團，我不知道，因為我問你這個問題，你也沒回答嘛，就含混過去了，其實就是現在進行式，而且已經嚴重地發生了嘛，他也認為現在新聞報導不公，過度政治立場。坦白講，如果就藍、綠、白可能都有，只是誰多誰少，大家很清楚。最後一個是今天要談的，他也對現在申設、評鑑，甚至換照制度的實質效能希望能夠更透明，而且要建立公正的評鑑指標與評分，這我有點擔心，因為在這整個過程中，他參與評鑑，他最後的心得是這樣，那我們會覺得：哇靠！那你們在整個評鑑的時候，你自己覺得有一些不夠透明或者標準有問題。","我們回來看一下，對於中天新聞台換照駁回的整個過程，其中有三大理由，第二個理由就是內控與自律機制失靈，我是覺得很好奇，當然北高行就把你們的行政處分打回來，當然你說最高行有不同的見解，這個我都知道，可是問題是我們要看內容發生了什麼事啊，對不對？也許法律的界線在這邊剛好沒有超過，但是道德標準搞不好有超過嘛，這蠻可怕的。我們先看一下後面，發生了什麼事？你們換照的標準，中天新聞台申請換照，109年6月8日送件了，按照你們之前公布的標準，107年你們就有公布一個標準，什麼配分多、什麼配分少，然後就送進去了。做好了，然後差不多5個月，11月11日NCC突然要更改遊戲規則，配分標準的比例不太一樣，就簡單來講，欸？不對呀，哪一個稍微疏失多一點，要是配分多一點的話，你就死了啦！我的感受是這樣嘛！五天之後就運用新的換照分配表生效了，然後再兩天開委員會。哇！天衣無縫啊！你知道嗎？我覺得棒球比賽最關鍵的是要三振的時候，中天換照被你們三振了，但是有一個魔鬼，他投出一個180K的變化球，你知道怎麼變的嗎？結果投手在那邊沒有投，球從哪裡投過來不知道，你這不是會覺得莫名其妙嗎？你知道嗎？也許到那個法的邊界，你們還要再去討論駁回，你們要怎麼去弄是另外一回事，但是可以這樣嗎？一個電視台，不要講中天，現在6月準備有一堆人來換照了，一堆人來換照囉，你們在109年已經換了嘛，更新這個標準了。哇靠！他們6月一送進來，你可不可以這樣搞法？你7月、8月……對，現在最高行政法院講你可以這樣搞啊，因為你們很專業，你們可以這樣搞，那有沒有可能這個表格再來換啊？您說說看。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：幾點補充。第一點，目前呈現的這個甘特圖時間上部分，其實跟實務上大概會有一些落差，因為我們換照配分的部分，在中天換照案之前就有好幾台的頻道業者已經適用了，這是第一點補充。第二點補充，我們配分的基準項目沒有變，是配分的比例那邊，即使用新的換照部分，據當時的資料來看，中天當時好像也是處於跟原來用的新換照配分標準結果是沒有影響的。"],["魯委員明哲：主委，你知道嗎？有時候是一個時機啊，因為你是一個獨立的機關，要給人家平穩的感覺，要有一致性的公信力，尤其你遭到重大的一個變革處分，你順順地過的都沒人講啊，然後你用這樣的標準，坦白講，北高行也看到了嘛，雖然這不是最終結果啦，但是看到這個問題，我覺得你們要去思考制度的相對穩定性。我請教你，你有考過大學聯考吧？你知道嗎？每一次的評分表都出來了，我準備要考哪個科系，不同的大學科系有的特別數學加50%，有的英文可以加40%，我按照我的目標、按照我的標準，我準備了3年，當我都已經考完的時候，把分數表拿出來，如果你改評分的話，我真的覺得很不OK啦！當然你改的這個的部分，我們看右邊，107年到109年評分的標準，就是中天最終內控機制跟自律，從原本的8分，增加了250%，已經到20分，這個部分也不是我說的，因為我們至少看到你們在北高行，那也是很多專業領域的人提出了這一點。我真的是給你建議，這不是要再翻案什麼東西，你們以後在處理這樣制度的時候，我覺得應該要更穩健、更慎重，我這個建議你認為可以接受嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員的建議沒問題，但是我剛剛跟你講，即便用107年舊的套回去換算的話，其實它的分數大概也是很危險的。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦，不要6月一堆電台來換照的時候，你們又弄一些很怪的規矩。","最後，我想跟黃主秘討論一下，你已經講了好多次，當然可能是跟立法院喊話啦，你講只剩三位委員沒辦法運作，你都講了這麼多嘛，然後到了11月20日，周刊王訪問你的報導，你說你們將啟動「葉克膜條款」，所以現在NCC委員還是葉克膜躺在那裡嘛，對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["魯委員明哲：所以你覺得這是一個非常嚴重的事情，我感覺是這樣，你講了好多次，影響非常大，影響名聲非常大，所以你做了什麼事情呢？因為影響這麼大，你這麼積極，除了跟媒體放話之外，你到底具體做了些什麼事情？我就請教一下，請主秘先回答，代理主委才剛上任，不過代理主委之前也在NCC占領要職很久了。你們NCC人事同意案，剛剛也有委員說，是啊！在去年4、5月就送進來了，然後呢？前一段第一學期沒有進度嘛，但是連行政院長到11月質詢的時候，11月喔，它還在程序委員會，我的天啊！院長沒有掌握，你們沒有掌握嗎？7月12日，當然因為馬上休會，不可能馬上處理，7月12日已經過了程序委員會，程序委員會還要送到院會，第二關付委了，那你知不知道？你當時清不清楚？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告……"],["魯委員明哲：你清不清楚這個流程已經付委了？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們主委剛剛已經報告，這個其實是行政院的職掌，我們不太可能去掌握這個……"],["魯委員明哲：所以我很緊張，你說要啟動葉克膜了，快死了！但是到底立法院審議如何，你不知道。我跟你講，你不知道不要亂傳謠言啊！我就跟你講啊，7月12日之後，我們交通委員會跟教文委員會聯席就可以審查了。","繼續我請教陳代理主委，你之前是擔任什麼職務？就一直是委員嘛？有兼任什麼嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員之前擔任主秘。"],["魯委員明哲：擔任主秘，那你知不知道？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這些訊息如果是在報章媒體公開的話，我們大概都掌握了情況。"],["魯委員明哲：不是啦，立法院的系統……哇！我不知道耶，好可怕，你NCC這樣叫尊重立法院啊？你這案子到什麼部分？我告訴你，不要再騙人了，因為我做過幾屆的召委，你們連一個凍結案、需要的法案，三不五時來拜託召委，拜託這個先排、那個先排，你們完全掌握到，你們現在還有一堆的案子，現在已經在交委會在待排，你明明就很清楚嘛。","我現在請教交委會的主秘，現在7月12日已經排入委員會了，交付審查，那付委，那召委可不可以排來進行審查？按照現在的法律，可以還是不可以？"],["李主任秘書健行：原則上是可以。"],["魯委員明哲：好，就簡單來講，所以不管是陳主委、黃主秘，你們從去年的7月12日就付委，不管你真不知道還是假不知道，都是失職，7月休會，9月下旬開會了，開會了，你們兩位有沒有來拜託？我是上會期的召委，你們有沒有來拜託陳素月召委？有沒有拜託教文委會哪位召委？有沒有拜託哪位召委幫你排案子？有還是沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我想應該是有溝通、有反映。"],["魯委員明哲：跟誰反映？來，黃主秘，你最會講，你來講一下，你拜託了哪一位召委？有四位召委嘛，藍綠各一位啊，我沒有被拜託，那麼剩三位，你拜託了誰幫你排NCC委員審查？因為已經進入葉克膜了，你很緊張，所以你拜託了誰？老實說啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：誠如我們剛才主委報告的，我們真的有去瞭解，但是委員說拜託這件事情，那個職掌真的不在我們，我不知道怎麼去拜託。"],["魯委員明哲：拜託排案，你們每次對於凍結案不拜託召委的？不要這樣騙啦，許智傑委員都聽不下去啦！不是啦，這個案子你要拜託，很急，大家來排案嘛，反正公聽會嘛，大家來講啊，對不對？那我是覺得對於你們這樣是你們自己失職，包括現在，現在喔，6月30日審查，根本來得及啊，來得及啊，現在案子行政院院長自己不重視，自己不重視，他說的要宜快不宜慢。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：卡在程序委員會，付委了兩個月，行政院院長還說卡在……他說希望再快一點，但是12月沒提，1月也沒有提，2月也沒提，現在3月了，我就不知道你們有什麼陽謀陰謀啊，但是我今天直接講清楚，你們要擺爛，你們不審就算了。我是建議啦，如果民進黨黨團有什麼樣的建議，叫你們不要審，那沒關係，我們拜託林國成委員。我今天跟你講囉，你急你就拜託，因為沒有新案，所以過去這四個名單，有一個不合法規，還有三個可以繼續來審，如果你們急，你們就這樣做；如果你們沒有動作，就表示你們不急，未來換照產生任何亂象，行政院院長跟通傳會，你們要負全責，現在排都來得及喔！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請林國成委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-4","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","黃國昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳冠廷","魯明哲","林國成","翁曉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","何欣純","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1143201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143201_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}