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數據的情況之下帶動資訊通訊傳播產業的發展以上報告謝謝好謝謝陳志偉下面那個請法務部黃次長報告簡短一點好不好我看你那個簡報資料蠻長的"},{"start":2497.612,"end":2513.977,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先生、女士今天奉邀就本件專案報告請代表本部列席並備質詢通報法規定的通訊紀錄是使電信的使用人在使用電信服務後所產生的一些相關的紀錄這些紀錄本身並沒有相關通訊的內容"},{"start":2516.858,"end":2516.978,"text":"稍後會議"},{"start":2546.698,"end":2554.005,"text":"通訊記錄必須採取法官保留原則換句話說檢察官或司法檢察官在偵查犯罪的時候如果符合通訪法的規定他必須要經過法院的核發"},{"start":2572.501,"end":2596.355,"text":"調取票之後才能夠調取而且法官在核發調取票的時候他也應該考量相關案件的必要性及本案關聯性以及比例原則至於有關違法調取通訊紀錄相關的違法刑責的部分請各位參考本部的報告相關的規定以上報告謝謝好謝謝法務部黃次長請各支委員會籌備處政府主任報告"},{"start":2610.95,"end":2632.698,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生先本籌備處奉邀來委員會報告深感榮幸那以下就這一次的報告主題來跟大家做說明那請各位委員來指教那首先是針對那個個資法跟相關行政法規定依據的部分因為個資法的性質是一個普通法那如果其他法規對於個人資料的收集處於利用是有規定的話"},{"start":2633.638,"end":2657.628,"text":"那依照中央法規標準法第16條特別法會優先於普通法也就是會適用這些特別法的規定那電信管理法第17條這邊其實在裡面已經有規範到電信用戶在對於個人資料收集處理利用的限制跟條件的規定那主要是要由電信的事業訂定定型化的服務的7月的條款來報送主管機關"},{"start":2659.289,"end":2687.764,"text":"NCC來核准後實施那相對於這些個資法的這些一般的規定電信管理法它是一個特別規定會優先適用那其次我再就電信法規跟這些的契約的規範來做簡要的說明我們現在三大的電信業者依照電信管理法第17條第二項第7款的規定已經都有報請通傳會來核准實施行動寬頻服務契約那其中的第37條裡面都有規定相關的一些規範"},{"start":2689.424,"end":2706.73,"text":"簡單來說就是電信業者如果要把這些涉及個人資料的這些手機的信令提供第三人使用之前那依照這個電信管理法第17條跟剛剛的7月的相關規定必須要先取得當事的同意或者處理並確認第三人是無從識別當事人"},{"start":2708.191,"end":2709.972,"text":"現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項"},{"start":2737.802,"end":2762.427,"text":"發言時間初期委員5加1分鐘,列舉委員4加1分鐘。委員發言登記於10點30分截止。各委員如果有提案,請於10點前提出,以便議事人員會等。暫定10點30分,休息10分鐘。中午原則上不休息。現在請第一位發言的林佩祥委員。謝謝。"},{"start":2785.866,"end":2799.21,"text":"五一七的時候其實我在立法院裡面我看著外面立法院的標語寫的是民主已死五一九的時候我在看到那個我們民眾黨外面的集會的標語叫做打倒新黨國"},{"start":2801.072,"end":2825.963,"text":"521的時候我看到外面的標語叫做反黑箱反擴權但實質上這個案子我個人覺得非常非常的遺憾非常非常的吃驚因為這是一個很明顯侵犯個人隱私踐踏基本人權的一個案子我一直認為說台灣是個民主法治國家像美國、好萊塢、蘇聯這樣的情節不應該發生在台灣但是我們現在看到的狀況這等於是跟全民攻敵"},{"start":2827.325,"end":2852.571,"text":"這是快20年前的電影 《全民公敵》還是《Board Identity》《神鬼認證》一樣好萊塢的電影才會看到的情節用國家機器來去監控我們全體的人民 在一個大型的活動的時候那我想只想請問部長 因為部長您是治安的專家您在就職速發部部長之前 我那時候有提醒過說我會問這些事情 請問一下目前這個技術是否可行"},{"start":2854.511,"end":2878.859,"text":"報告委員那個技術上我剛剛講過資料的串接是都有在散佈在各系統當然可行但是會相當的困難所以這個技術是可行的可行但是會相當困難因為要串接很多系統那事實上每個系統是獨立的那一定要各個系統都要得到允許所以這個方面在行政流程上技術上可行在行政流程上是很困難因為讓我們知道說我們現在確認有這個技術是可行的"},{"start":2881.32,"end":2898.425,"text":"因為我們一直是報道聽途說說可能我們用美國的WhatsApp會有這個問題可能我們用Line會有日本的問題可能我們用Telegram會有俄國的問題甚至可能我們用微信會有大陸的問題可是沒想到我們自己的手機在台灣就會有這樣的技術謝謝部長那在下一位我想請黃次長"},{"start":2909.461,"end":2925.493,"text":"市長你好那時候王益川先生說有些是小草有些是太陽花的占了整個活動的六成我們用手機去看他們的年齡差不多六成二十歲以下差不多占一成二巴拉巴拉講了一堆最重要的是說這些人在519樓下的也不一樣517跟519不一樣跟1月13也不一樣請問一下像這樣的資訊透露之後這樣的說法這樣的行為是否違法"},{"start":2934.441,"end":2953.678,"text":"公開報告本部所掌管是通訊保障監察法就通訪法他只能就犯罪的個案上才調起通信機對可是像如果這樣他你剛才講過他沒有辦法這樣全面性的來調全面性的這樣是否違法如果有人做出這樣活這樣行動是否違法那涉及到這是不是違反個人資料保護法的問題那就不是違法如果大大大規模的"},{"start":2954.978,"end":2979.511,"text":"對於大規模的監控個人資訊是否違法?個人資料保護法就非本部主管的業務了本部主管業務是通訊保障及監察法所以你無法跟我講是否違法?對 沒有錯那請問是哪個部位可以講是否違法?目前有他的目的主管機關哪一位?個人資料保護法的目的主管機關好 那我還想請問一下如果說您認為以你的辦案經驗您是前任檢察官對"},{"start":2980.552,"end":2997.846,"text":"那嚴格講起來王先生理論上來講他不應該得到質問他應該不是主管的人來得到這方面的資訊對吧那各位報告這個已經涉及到個案個案的事實法律要適用要偵辦不是說你以前的先例對因為我們講辦案講先例以你的慣例先例之外"},{"start":2998.186,"end":3012.022,"text":"那現在是一個政策會執行長做到這樣的事情因為我會很好奇啦因為是整個系統這樣看起來整個run起來我們在4月20號的時候就有人預告說5月17號、5月21號、5月28號、5月28號這個就有318在就已經有人在媒體上面直接先預告了"},{"start":3017.728,"end":3044.291,"text":"所以已經知道那我剛剛也請教了我們那個林國成委員說什麼時候一五一九的活動暫定的他說是五月是兩個禮拜前差不多五月初所以這些時間都很明確的時候那以我們剛剛知道這個技術是可行的那怎麼樣去弄當然有困難性那當然你說現在是把這邊變成個案好我給你這個講法但是對於這件事情來講我們都知道什麼時間發生什麼事情了那這邊資訊後來也拿到了"},{"start":3046.584,"end":3067.43,"text":"然後你說這是個案好我給你但是說實在話本席會認為說你單單純純以一個政策會執行長就拿到這麼高級的資料如果你說個案是刑事責任對吧可是如果是通案如果是這麼大大規模的話這只有兩個人講起來這只能做不能說這應該是國安才能國安局長才能拿到資訊可是怎麼一個政黨的政策會執行長會拿這些資訊呢"},{"start":3069.222,"end":3090.662,"text":"請你解釋一下跟委員報告如果是個案的話臺北地檢署就個案事實上他在2月19號已經分案在偵辦但委員所提出的通案性的問題的話就不是我們檢察機關辦個案時能夠謝謝市長那我最後面想請問一下那個我們中華電信董事長來請中華電信請郭董"},{"start":3097.799,"end":3105.561,"text":"董事長如果說以你們當然你們現在是全面否認不過我是很好奇如果說以你們在去辦業務的話這樣資料是如何取得的"},{"start":3106.847,"end":3131.416,"text":"我們不知道他的資料如果2013年英國倫敦就可以這樣去做的時候英國倫敦用一家有MAC address的這個垃圾桶在網路垃圾桶就可以去做出這樣的東西我不相信11年之後中華電信連這樣的資訊都沒有拿到我相信黃部長在AT&T認識過也知道這東西其實是很心中平常只是願不願意做而已那我想請問一下這個資料是如何取得的"},{"start":3136.399,"end":3151.951,"text":"中華電信處理任何個人資料包括人潮分析我們一切都是依照法定規定來辦理剛才所提到的相關的功能我們沒有任何去識別化會給一般人他們的MAC address跟他們的年紀嗎?"},{"start":3156.548,"end":3173.723,"text":"王先生在媒體上面講的上面是有說這些是不同人而且甚至繫到說連年齡都有是他透露訊息我想本身那份資料應該更完整而且速度很快我記得這個他講的時候是5月22他5月22的話變成是5月19號、5月17號甚至521資料很快就出來怎麼會有這麼快這麼迅速的作業呢"},{"start":3180.899,"end":3209.031,"text":"本公司沒有提供任何有關到從517到524之間任何的資料我們沒有提供任何人潮這方面的人潮分析資料那我想請問一下如果有的話那通常是一個如果是企業體要購買像這方面的資料因為本席會認為說如果這些資料可以拿出來在這個政論節目上面隨便亂講的話那基本上我們詐騙集團問題就很大啦那難怪我們詐騙這麼多因為我們什麼資料都可以給人家耶"},{"start":3210.546,"end":3213.127,"text":"報告委員中華電信的資料都在公司內部不會外流不會外流對不會外流"},{"start":3229.673,"end":3244.245,"text":"我會覺得這次的質詢還是一句話聽軍醫習話如聽醫習話其實對我們來講對我們國會議員來講是非常非常非常失望的那老實講我們期待因為這件事情你說什麼叫做毀線亂政這個就是毀線亂政"},{"start":3249.582,"end":3251.283,"text":"我個人覺得說我們對我們現在的體制非常失望以上"},{"start":3277.52,"end":3303.28,"text":"好,謝謝林培祥委員的發言下一位請李崑澤召委發言謝謝陳雪生召委,請一下陳耀祥主委還有黃部長好,耀祥主委還有黃部長請郭水義董事長郭董請好"},{"start":3306.684,"end":3325.279,"text":"我先請教一下陳主委我想我個人的立場非常清楚不管藍綠誰執政對於國家機器如果侵犯人民的這樣一個個資保護我們是絕對不能接受那我請教一下陳主委你針對電信三雄這是三大業者"},{"start":3326.636,"end":3348.981,"text":"針對這一次的清了行動有沒有進行所謂的這樣的一個相關數據的一個掌握來請說明一下我們5月3日有請三大電信業者到會做行政調查因為這個事情來講的話我們覺得是非常嚴重就是說如果有涉及到違法個人資料使用的話那這個是會涉及到可能還有行者的問題"},{"start":3349.941,"end":3365.991,"text":"那所以我們有很慎重其實是請三大業者到會調查而且請他們提供相關的資料那三大業者到會做行政調查的時候就表明他們並沒有提供給任何的這些所謂特定人士政黨也好或是企業也好這些相關的資料"},{"start":3366.952,"end":3383.079,"text":"那也有部分的媒體或者是群眾有質疑說相關的這些強迫車就是我們所知道的行動基地台那認為說這些是在收集相關的群眾的數據跟資料是不是有這樣的情形"},{"start":3383.999,"end":3384.019,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":3414.339,"end":3439.832,"text":"就是我請教一下陳主委我們在過去現在民眾有時候會搞混掉因為我們在疫情期間有相關的疫情的一個調查的一個平台疫情的平台它有分成幾種方式因為它要掌握疫情這也是疾管局當初的一個相關的行政程序來要求的"},{"start":3441.004,"end":3453.315,"text":"我們在當初的這個疫情的調查平台其實就有QR Code、電子圍籬以及相關的疫情的輔助平台還有相關的簡訊系統"},{"start":3455.816,"end":3480.652,"text":"跟我們的人潮分析平台又是一個不同的平台人潮分析平台大部分都用於交通的疏解或是觀光人潮或是特定的城市的這樣的人潮的一個調查這樣的調查他是去識別化的跟疫情的調查有這樣的一個個資的問題是不一樣的那疫情的這個平台"},{"start":3481.733,"end":3510.439,"text":"在2022年在NCC的監督之下都已經下架而且資料完全的銷毀是不是這樣來清楚的說明這關於疫情平台因為它是有特定目的使用所以當時依照這個所謂的特別法還有傳染病防治法等相關包括有電子圍籬、疫調系統還有所謂的簡訊實聯制那這些相關的資料收集還有後來的刪除我們NCC還有衛福部都就這個部分有去進行相關的檢查這些相關的資料都已經刪除了"},{"start":3510.939,"end":3532.151,"text":"那他這個是因為基於防疫目的所以的確會對比如說會連結到個人資料但是這個是是限於政府使用這個所謂的防疫目的所使用並沒有提供給第三者去處理那這個我們剛才所講這大數據分析是另外一種剛才所講人流的分析這種大數據分析是說個人資料去識別化以後"},{"start":3532.731,"end":3558.996,"text":"它很多的電信業者或者很多資訊服務業者它會提供這個大數據分析這個數據分析裡面呢第一個最重要的前提就是去識別化而且不可回溯所以剛才我也提到這個部分比如年紀、性別這些東西來講的話這個大數據分析裡面可以看得出來他們很多都是一種所謂輪廓性的資料相關疫情的這個調查的平台確實都已經下降而且全部資料都銷毀 是不是啦?是"},{"start":3560.596,"end":3583.473,"text":"這個部分我們已經下降而且全部銷毀了好最後更嚴肅的問你所謂的去識別化是做到什麼程度叫去識別化去識別化簡單來講的話就是說任何技術上第一個是匿名第二個是不可回溯不可回溯包括說你從這個資料沒有辦法回溯到這個特定的個人那這個是技術上的所以不管是直接也好、間接也好都不可以回溯到個人這樣的技術方式"},{"start":3584.173,"end":3597.106,"text":"最後時間我簡短的請教一下陳主委是有關於景廣的問題景廣是在駕駛或是民眾非常重要的一個收聽的電台其實你知不知道"},{"start":3598.206,"end":3598.406,"text":"因為它立體聲嘛"},{"start":3614.634,"end":3641.158,"text":"而且在目前有AM的這樣一個台南跟新竹這個造成民眾在駕駛的時候不管是行車的安全、資訊的取得或者是相關收聽的品質就會變得比較差我們能不能讓儘管這兩個電台提升到FM有沒有頻道的空間這個部分來講的話我們有跟衛福部討論過這個部分目前來講頻道上是還有空間但是我們已經依照相關的程序在處理當中"},{"start":3641.898,"end":3668.197,"text":"我想第一個先讓儘管這兩個AM跟FN的這樣的台南跟新竹從AM能夠提升到FN讓整個收聽的品質能夠穩定全國都能夠一致然後我們接下來還有其實還有其他的公家的電台還是有問題吧漁業電台還有這個教育電台也是有這樣的一個使用AM的這樣的一個部分的"},{"start":3668.897,"end":3670.318,"text":"目前是有嗎?"},{"start":3688.372,"end":3713.477,"text":"來說明一下那個報告委員對應該那個認證信私我想那個應該是有的應該是有應該是有啦我們來進行相關的這樣的這是為民眾服務相關的交通安全交通疏解那京廣電台是有很大的一個幫助的作用我們再把資料再跟我們報告好謝謝好謝謝李坤澤召委好謝謝三位"},{"start":3723.231,"end":3737.465,"text":"先做宣告本日有委員提出臨時提案我們預計11點鐘左右處理讓各位有所準備現在下一位請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":3749.855,"end":3762.503,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們先請數位部黃部長黃部長NCC陳主委陳主委跟個人資料保護委員會的副主任、正副主任副主任請還有中華電信國董事長國董事長請好"},{"start":3776.454,"end":3789.205,"text":"謝謝,謝謝各位這個Big Brother is watching you這個是1949年一個知名的小說老大哥在看著你啊讓我想沒想到2024年可能的這個事件當年的小說變成預言"},{"start":3791.891,"end":3805.525,"text":"這個上週政論節目裡面這個王一川曾經講過說民進黨政策會執行長王一川講他們去比對了這個相關的517跟民進黨樓下的訊號比起來不同人那他的說法是依據所謂的電信心理人口統計的資料"},{"start":3806.866,"end":3832.819,"text":"那我想內政部110年的這個電信資料當然各地方政府為了發展觀光、交通等等的都有去統計但是這些資料理論上都是去識別化的統計數字我想問一下我們陳主委以上的敘述對不對沒有錯 這個是大數據分析要去識別化那換句話說理論上來講不同的場合、不同的人群理論上是沒辦法做比對的是嗎"},{"start":3835.23,"end":3860.145,"text":"這個資料基本上來講比如說如果你說做兩個場合來講的話如果大數據分析有一些比如說性別或年紀有些東西輪廓性的資料來講的話還是有可能的比如說這個是學生的活動還是比如說一般成年的活動還是有一些年紀上或性別上還是有區別的好所以主委說有可能去做比對那沒關係如果有可能做比對的話我再確認一件事情誰可以去申請電信心靈資料"},{"start":3863.704,"end":3875.48,"text":"電信信息資料基本上來講的話是在電信公司這邊嘛那基本上如果說他已經去識別化了這個東西來講就變成所謂的數據在使用當中好 謝謝主委 那我問一下郭董事長"},{"start":3878.362,"end":3897.927,"text":"郭董事長從這個今年總統大選的造勢晚會然後到今年519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行有沒有任何單位來跟中華電信申請了手機的這個電信信用資料沒有都沒有那誰可以申請電信資料剛剛主委說"},{"start":3901.548,"end":3926.466,"text":"主委有沒有回答?我想問一下這個實務面的話誰可以來跟中華電信申請這樣的手機信用資料?我們電信信用資料是不會外流的,剛才有報告那剛才提到的任何跟政黨相關的集會遊行相關的活動我們沒有這樣的一個分析主委,對不起,董事長你說電信信用資料是不能外流的,但是"},{"start":3927.54,"end":3944.404,"text":"地方政府他們就有掌握到他們就是能夠利用電信資料來做對比啊?報告委員那個是所謂的人潮分析的大數據的分析應用所以它是另外再另外給你買這個東西嗎?是嗎?就是人潮分析平台上面所產製的大數據的這個分析資料"},{"start":3947.604,"end":3963.469,"text":"這是公開資訊還是要另外加價購買?這個需要購買的讓我重新再問一次問題今年的總統大選造勢晚會跟519、521、524、528這幾場大型集會遊行有沒有任何單位或個人可以跟中華電信來購買這幾場集會遊行的大數據資料?報告委員沒有都沒有"},{"start":3968.471,"end":3997.871,"text":"所以誰可以買?任何人都可以買嗎?任何人都不能購買這個部分的資料大數據資料呢?如果是屬於剛才委員所提到的關關應用或疏解交通等等這些人潮分析的資料呢我們會應這個主管單位的一些比如地方的這個縣市政府的需求然後在最重要的是在合法合規的一個前提下而且重要是要去識別化"},{"start":3998.752,"end":4001.674,"text":"主管機關針對了所謂的這個觀光或者是交通問題他們可以來購買去做分析比對"},{"start":4019.512,"end":4034.936,"text":"對,就去識別化之後在分析之前先去識別化好,郭董謝謝那換句話說齁這郭董沒事齁換句話說齁這個這個政策會執行長王岳川在電視上講的這段看起來理論上來不是從你們這邊來購買的啦對吧不是"},{"start":4044.156,"end":4062.813,"text":"接下來下一段我想問一下我們這個我們數位部我們黃部長部長你在今天的報告裡面提到說除非同時取得基地台服務號碼跟帳戶客戶資料才能夠進行交叉比對否則無法連上特定區域某個基地台的手機使用者的年齡分布是嗎?"},{"start":4063.353,"end":4065.174,"text":"所以技術上可行但是這個資料比對起來非常的複雜"},{"start":4085.595,"end":4112.176,"text":"那如果王逸川講說他取得的話你覺得這句話有沒有可行性沒有沒有報告委員因為我沒有在這個就是說我不能判斷因為我沒有這個資料就是好沒關係那最後因為時間不夠我來問一下我們這個個人資料保護委員會籌備處你在今天報告裡面提到一件事情第二頁的部分然後後面提到的在這個合約裡面我們都很在意我們個人資料保護但是在這個"},{"start":4113.715,"end":4122.367,"text":"合約裡面有提到說經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別乙方本人的資料可以提供第三人使用嗎?"},{"start":4123.716,"end":4146.056,"text":"這個是你們給我們看到的這個合約的內容經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別的這句話我想請問一下誰來確認經甲方處理並確認是 黃委員好跟委員報告那因為現在電信事業電信管理法的主管機關還是通傳會包含到電信事業在個人資料保護的這個個案的監視機關也是通傳會所以之後也是會有通傳會這邊來確認以上"},{"start":4148.075,"end":4169.976,"text":"所以消費者有沒有機會選擇我不要提供這個金甲方族與冰圈第三人物種識別的乙方資料給電信公司合約上可以這樣做嗎這邊的話如果是通傳會這邊解釋合約這邊如果可以的話那當然這個是去識別化以後的資料那當然就是依照這個合約去處理不是我已經說我可不可以我連去識別化之後我都不提供"},{"start":4171.545,"end":4171.645,"text":"主席"},{"start":4192.685,"end":4205.993,"text":"有當然你如果要變更的話你就要通知就是說我原來來講的話比如說接著契約裡面來講的話當然這個是所謂的個人資料自主權的問題嘛他如果覺得他的個人資料有這個疑慮他可以要求這個電信公司他可以退出的問題"},{"start":4207.414,"end":4221.739,"text":"最後一個時間我知道這個是誰主管機關過去疫情的時候有統計到有這個所謂電子城牆的問題那當然依法理論上你們是消除了那我想問一下到底誰能夠確認這個資料的消除"},{"start":4225.407,"end":4244.169,"text":"在哪裡?這個執行過程在哪裡?我請我們的同仁來,我們先去檢查報告委員,那個我們是配合那個疫情結束後12年5月因為降階以後就是這套監控系統都全部停止那我們都是配合那個衛福部的"},{"start":4245.07,"end":4266.71,"text":"因應衛福部的要求我們還分別了我們NCC分別去了五趟電信業者來確保他們所有在疫情期間的資料都已經完全刪除以上所以疫情期間收集的、處理的、利用的這些個人資料還有他們去過的任何地方的相關資料在現階段都已經消除了"},{"start":4268.611,"end":4289.517,"text":"疫情期間也曾經大家也看到了不管是這個天下雜誌還是我們這個以色列總理納坦雅胡講的話也好就是說台灣實際上能夠做到監控這個人流監控手機的這個透過手機來監控人的這個流向這件事情我想問一下我們NCC我們陳主委現階段技術上到底做不做得到這件事情"},{"start":4290.622,"end":4311.564,"text":"不曉得委員你問的是個人還是說人流個人個人基本上來講的話你要手機當然有啊因為基本上比如說你要救災要救人或者是說比如說歧視犯罪可能有通報的這個問題技術上來講是有可行的但是說你如果沒有有沒有所謂的法律規定嘛你如果違反法律規定的話就違反各自法或者是相關的法律"},{"start":4312.245,"end":4335.697,"text":"所以只要有人取得了這樣非透過正當要有法律的依據還有法律的程序法定程序才可以所以如果沒有通過法律程序取得了這些個人的資料的話他就是違法對吧對如果沒有依照法律規定跟法定程序取得那就會受會可能侵害到個人的資料各自好主委謝謝部長謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝黃建豪委員下一位請林國正委員發言"},{"start":4350.441,"end":4350.941,"text":"明明知道"},{"start":4380.987,"end":4404.927,"text":"你人數人流這些懶懶逆逆去做控制這商業之行為當然是在範疇之內可是交叉比對這是非常嚴重的就是監視人民的行動自由跟到哪邊他就有辦法監控現在問題發生的是這個問題啊"},{"start":4409.625,"end":4434.993,"text":"可是我看到你們三個單位來守走報告你跟所有委員來做這些報告各位首長這是可以看得出來人民不信任是來自於政府不認真啦我說實在的我最喜歡退人家的報告但是我今天看你們這些報告我真的心裡面很難過我要請問"},{"start":4438.297,"end":4466.036,"text":"人民這麼在乎他不是個資法的問題而是非常恐怖變成現在綠色在執政的時候這是綠色恐怖耶人民的行動他都有辦法去把它監控出來這是一個恐怖的社會所以你們是主管機關我第一個要請教四位主管第一請問"},{"start":4467.321,"end":4490.046,"text":"除了NCC以外你們有沒有做什麼非常嚴厲積極的去做調查來陳主委你說有沒有我們基本上第一時間來講的話就請三大電信所做行政調查而且請他們提供相關的資料去處理那這個他有沒有提供來主委有沒有提供他"},{"start":4490.686,"end":4503.414,"text":"他們有到會進行行政調查但是相關的資料還沒提到你們行政調查嘛他還沒有提供資料他們說沒有你們就說沒有嘛資料還有在處理當中有嘛好來那個黃部長你們有沒有做什麼調查那個"},{"start":4505.53,"end":4520.303,"text":"這件事情我們主要管的是技術面啦那技術面我只想說對啦你技術面有沒有什麼查出什麼破綻嘛這個技術面還是要根據我個人過去在電信多年經驗我只能說技術面那個系統是存在的是有可能的"},{"start":4522.145,"end":4524.746,"text":"好 那個黃市長你們現在有在調查嘛來 那個郭董事長來好 你們一直說沒有嘛三大電信業說沒有嘛"},{"start":4551.223,"end":4580.767,"text":"打死你 你們也說沒有啦我必須要提醒全黨挺議人情有可言但是整個政府挺議人會把台灣的人權把它當掉這必須我要提醒各位來 郭董事長我請教你一下國安局、調查局還有警政署有沒有曾經跟你們調過這些資料 有沒有"},{"start":4582.419,"end":4604.426,"text":"委員指的是哪一段時間的資料不是哪一段時間啦 有沒有啦過去如果有根據剛才像次長說明的他依照這個通保法相關的規定來調取有沒有提供你不要講那麼多當然是要依照最先一個就是正式的合法一個是徽法嘛"},{"start":4605.146,"end":4617.86,"text":"那我現在問你們非法你也不會講嘛真的有你也不會講我問的是合法的有沒有合法的我們要配合提供有沒有嘛有多少件這要統計要統計齁這個合法的應該可以提供給本院啦"},{"start":4626.226,"end":4635.876,"text":"多少件就好了不需要針對多少件那我也要拜託我們陳主委像這種合法要不要召會你們"},{"start":4638.539,"end":4639.159,"text":"另外一個"},{"start":4666.172,"end":4689.982,"text":"那看起來似乎啊 來主委不好意思那個資料來講的話我們可以問一下那個統計因為剛剛委員所講應該有個時間點我們才有辦法調啦比如說是這一年還是怎麼樣我們會去問問看他們這三年好不好這三年好不好這三年我們來看他們有沒有相關資料好不好這個來提供一下來現在主委我特別要問那看起來似乎"},{"start":4691.002,"end":4709.348,"text":"你們都沒有嘛 包括法務部 法務部就是個案在偵辦嘛 那你們三個電信公司都沒有嘛 那你們兩個監督單位還有那個主管單位 你們通通都是沒有 那見鬼啦"},{"start":4710.966,"end":4737.708,"text":"為什麼王先生、王一川先生他有這些資料可以去分析這個分析人流都OK這個都可以掌握也可以有商業之行為現在是交叉比對可以把人員分辨出來也就是說有些參加小草的有些參加319的都不一樣的人可以去分析出來"},{"start":4738.628,"end":4752.894,"text":"問題在這裡所以我要拜託主委這個部分不是今天你來報告一下說這個沒有問題就不是這樣牽涉到人民的被監控的問題是非常嚴重的這個會贏效國際的"},{"start":4755.795,"end":4781.372,"text":"現在民主國家沒有人在這樣除了我們的賴總統說我不是民主國家他如果敢這樣講那我們沒話講還是在戒嚴時代那沒話講可是現在我們是民主國家這個事情是不容許最後一個我要請教諸位如果假設這些通通沒有那很簡單就是假新聞"},{"start":4783.001,"end":4809.562,"text":"我正式跟你檢舉以現在的情況看起來現在那個黃次長他們已經在偵辦但是假新聞現在沒有我正式跟你檢舉這個假新聞你要怎麼處理可以不可以處理我們已法定程序處理齁這個如果說委員已經檢舉我們本身我正式檢舉喔有沒有落實事實查證這個部分我去處理好不好我正式跟你檢舉好不好好謝謝"},{"start":4815.254,"end":4831.993,"text":"好下一位請林俊憲委員發言好現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":4837.216,"end":4863.854,"text":"好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們NCC陳主委我們速發部黃部長好陳主委黃部長好謝謝陳主委主委我看你的那個報告裡面你又寫到前幾天五月三十號你有請三大行動業者大會了解"},{"start":4865.011,"end":4881.446,"text":"我就重複一下你寫的那個報告裡面他說這三大行動通信業者就是中華電信嘛、台哥大、遠傳嘛這三家對不對沒錯他們三家的業者到會都說明"},{"start":4882.711,"end":4898.009,"text":"在侵擾行動的那段期間沒有任何私人企業政府機關或特定黨籍人士向該等公司跟他們三家公司接洽或請求有關侵擾行動相關人流資訊"},{"start":4899.417,"end":4919.763,"text":"那三家公司也表示啦 從來沒有提供任何相關資料或資訊給予其他的單位或人士 是不是這樣 是 我們在報告第二頁寫得很清楚 所以他們三間公司都認為 都說沒有嘛 對不對 是那過去啦 他們三大電信公司對於這種所謂人流上用手機訊號"},{"start":4921.571,"end":4947.583,"text":"去做的那種數據啦他們有在做商業販售嗎跟委員報告一下我們這裡討論說個資跟數據這兩個概念是不太一樣個資去識別化以後不可逆以後它就成為一個數據那數據是可以做商業發展有些公關公司有些數據公司他會去買啦但是重點是你要合法那合法就是你要去識別化"},{"start":4948.8,"end":4969.467,"text":"你這些資料裡面不可以讓它回溯去查到每一個人啦沒錯只要這樣的話它就是合法那過去誰會去買這些資料除了我剛講的數據公司啦一些行銷公司啦地方政府也會買啦是沒錯過去的各個政黨都買過啦你就把他們的商量公司調出來"},{"start":4970.543,"end":4998.703,"text":"你看民進黨、國民黨有買過嗎?民眾黨有沒有買過?以前買這個是合法可以買但是你必須要去識別化要合法必須要遵守這樣的一個規範是不是這樣?但重點是清了行動期間這三家電信公司都說沒有販送沒有人去買那他們也沒有提供資料是不是這樣子?沒錯這三家電信公司會不會說謊?"},{"start":5000.424,"end":5028.555,"text":"我想這個是說反對,台中大陸幕後老街蔡明忠耶深藍的大金主耶他怎麼說不出來這有法律責任的問題有法律責任的問題嘛遠傳電信怎麼會說不出來中華電信在這裡怎麼會說不出來都沒有人跟你們說不出來你們有沒有提過我們那有沒有說謊誰查得到法務部查得到啦檢察官查得到啦因為這個案子有人去搞了啦他已經是他治案了他治案就是偵辦"},{"start":5030.711,"end":5057.928,"text":"那我也要求我們司法單位檢察官這邊要去查明是不是在那段時間請到行動那幾天沒有任何的資料漏出來沒有人去買啦不管合法就算合法買的都沒有啦對不對他現在是說連合法購買的都沒有那我這三家資訊公司會不會非法提供"},{"start":5060.018,"end":5065.022,"text":"人權維護是每一個政黨都要做的事情誰都可能當執政黨誰都可能在野"},{"start":5089.912,"end":5113.043,"text":"能不能都有可能輪流執政輪流在野這是我們台灣民主國家這是我們一個最基本的一個理念一個價值所以必須要維護法、人權、保障人民這是我們大家要做的絕不允許有這種事情所以這個事情你們當然要查清楚那如果三家電信公司都沒有資料流出去那可不可能會產生所謂監控的問題你手機身上沒有貼水是要監控什麼"},{"start":5118.447,"end":5119.027,"text":"接下來我請教一下那個蘇華部黃部長"},{"start":5144.625,"end":5150.116,"text":"您有沒有跟昨天可以說演說非常受到全世界注目的"},{"start":5151.84,"end":5152.821,"text":"那部長有提過嗎?"},{"start":5181.27,"end":5192.446,"text":"國家政策啦 政府要設立AI生態園區是不是這樣子這是我們跟國發會還有國客會在努力的目標我認為啊 你有提到啦 第一個當然要土地嘛"},{"start":5193.899,"end":5220.489,"text":"對不對土地一定要有嘛第二個你說交通便利嘛部長AI生態園區啊最適合設立的就在台南高鐵特區啦就在台南沙崙我對沙崙還蠻熟的因為我個人有辦公室在那裡對你為什麼會熟因為我們台灣很多最重要的高等研究機構都設在這個地方所以沙崙周邊相關互相支援的"},{"start":5221.704,"end":5223.888,"text":"已經非常的完整了"},{"start":5224.966,"end":5251.525,"text":"所以國家如果未來要設立AI生態園區我們台南高鐵高鐵特區的沙崙是最適合的部長你的看法我這個我還在先跟國會跟國科會開會不過我個人是對沙崙還蠻熟悉的我覺得那個生態應該是符合你所提出的幾項條件因為我注意到你有提到一點嘛交通要便利最好高鐵出來就到了這裡就是啦對"},{"start":5253.206,"end":5274.793,"text":"是不是應該優先列入考量?有在考量,對,沒錯有在考量齁?我們私底下再談啦OK,好 這個最適合的啦我們待會兒沒必要再寫下去啦你南部要找一個沒有比這個地方更好的啦再跟委員請教,好那個AI生態營區一定要考慮設在我們台南台南那個高鐵的沙崙好不好?好,謝謝部長謝謝,謝謝委員好,謝謝林俊健市長"},{"start":5280.476,"end":5292.226,"text":"這麼早就在布局了是不是?AI設在沙倫啊?政見啊?好,謝謝了。下一位請蔡其山副院長謝謝主席、雪生兄"},{"start":5306.153,"end":5316.319,"text":"請陳耀祥主委、請中華電信今天只有三家,只有一家嗎?國董另外兩家有來嗎?沒有沒有來,那就中華電信當代表另外請個人資料保護委員會的鄭副主任鄭副主任委員"},{"start":5334.794,"end":5347.469,"text":"今天主席做的這個題目我的理解上我並不希望把它理解成王逸川先生的個人事件但是這個事件的背後有很重要的價值"},{"start":5348.51,"end":5376.011,"text":"我覺得人權是民進黨這個從政黨員非常重要的價值是很多我們這個黨很重要的DNA所以過去我在立法院將近20年的時間我每一次我都對於科技發展科技發展也就是說我十幾年前還在還必須要每天質詢在交通委員會的時候那時候ETEC剛通ETEC剛開始做我也問了一個問題就是"},{"start":5378.989,"end":5402.977,"text":"當時的院長叫王金平,王院長的坐車經過哪幾個交流道誰可以去調這個資訊當時那個交通部回答我那個員警就可以調資訊了所以這個都是各自的保護啦所以對我而言這個題目很重要是因為我一直在強調一個觀念如果人權的保障跟不上黃仁勳"},{"start":5404.537,"end":5433.433,"text":"那AI是福是禍AI有可能是災難AI有可能是災難我想這幾天所有黃仁勳的新聞站滿了各個版面不只是只有經濟的版面甚至政治的版面因為對岸也在對岸的小粉紅對黃仁勳的講話也很感冒他說台灣是重要的國家是AI產業的支柱所以對方也很抓狂那體育版也站滿了"},{"start":5434.073,"end":5452.69,"text":"因為黃仁勳到我們中華職棒的這個大巨蛋啊在衛泉的主場去開球所以他幾乎占據了黃仁勳為什麼會得到那麼關注是因為黃仁勳這個NVIDIA的這個GPU帶動的整個AI產業在全球的發展那AI產業帶動的發展改變了人類的生活"},{"start":5453.888,"end":5465.498,"text":"所以換言之我們面對科技的趨勢我們其實相對的因為在未來AI的時代裡面透過大數據的收集分析教會AI讓這個電腦機器人學習人類的所有的這個行為所以"},{"start":5471.641,"end":5495.569,"text":"教導他的能夠教導這些電腦其實就是很簡單就是我們的大數據所以大數據的運用在這幾年在就算AI還沒有成形數據的經濟數據的科技早就已經運用包括在醫療未來醫療的判讀到底你的X光照完之後生了什麼病已經醫生都可能被取代所以這個就是發展的趨勢"},{"start":5496.581,"end":5524.169,"text":"那回過頭來這些大數據的data如果我們的法規跟不上如果我們對法規對人權的保障、隱私權的保障跟不上那各位想想這到底是福還是禍這是不是災難所以我一直在講這個強調這一點為什麼我對這個各自保護啊我們的籌備委員會非常在乎是這個好那我們先回過來這個主題"},{"start":5526.035,"end":5553.284,"text":"我們看一下現在我們對於電信公司所提供的這些數據目前被運用的狀況我只舉幾個縣市政府台中市政府他的網站裡面你可以去找到這些資料他對於觀光景點的分析我想請問一下那個陳主委公布性別、人次、年齡"},{"start":5555.647,"end":5572.405,"text":"請問一下這個以目前的法規裡面去跟三大電信業者買了大數據的資料透過手機買了大數據的資料分析完之後裡面有性別、人質、年齡請問一下這個是合法還是非法"},{"start":5573.638,"end":5576.841,"text":"所以換言之台中市政府新北市政府這個都是合法的"},{"start":5594.938,"end":5613.199,"text":"就是不管他們是縣市政府自己去買到這個大數據跟電信公司買嘛買這個數據資料然後進行分析或者他們在委託這個數據公司公共公司進行這個數據的分析以目前的法規來講這個都是合法的"},{"start":5614.011,"end":5632.271,"text":"換言之公佈人數、公佈性別、公佈年齡這個只要在去識別化的前提下不知道幾歲這個人是誰去識別化的意思就是這樣不知道這個人蔡啟昌當天在現場這個不行對不對但是我的年紀比如說我55歲裡面有一個55歲的"},{"start":5635.074,"end":5662.541,"text":"那這個是合法的對不對所以我們先釐清嘛案子要處理一定要先釐清數據的買賣隨著科技的發展電信公司三大電信公司都有提供這樣的服務郭董事長這樣對不對對報告委員只要是輪廓性的去識別化輪廓性的這個分析資料是合法的是合法你們都有在買賣對我也可以買有提供任何一個人都可以去買賣去買你們的資料對不對"},{"start":5666.395,"end":5684.031,"text":"我們針對那個活動的主辦單位只要他不非跟這個政黨政治性的議題的我們都會提供人潮分析的資料對換言之我要問的是說這個是這個是三大電信業者的business對不對是是你們的商業活動嗎"},{"start":5684.791,"end":5710.498,"text":"對是我們的商業活動的我們的業務項目之一所以你們商業活動提供出來的這些data這些數據基本上就已經去識別化了對不對對我們在進行分析之前都去識別化好那個我想請問副主任為三大我沒有針對因為只有今天只有中華電信來啦是三大電信業者未來所販售的資料裡面如果有可能"},{"start":5711.809,"end":5719.693,"text":"沒有辦法去識別化或者去識別化之後還可回溯那我們未來我們這個籌備會這個個人資料保護的這個籌備會未來你們有什麼因應措施"},{"start":5726.183,"end":5727.564,"text":"我們如果發現有人有三大電信業者違規的時候我們的處理機制是什麼"},{"start":5750.092,"end":5768.71,"text":"委員目前現在個資法目前就電信業者基本上已經可以由NCE這邊來去處理那將來以後委員會成立還是會繼續處理好那你覺得站在你個人資料保護的主管單位的立場你覺得現在的處罰跟防保護個人資料的機制夠不夠法規或者處罰的金額"},{"start":5771.604,"end":5793.769,"text":"委員當然這個在111年憲判第13套解釋之後其實我們大概已經理解很多的機制我們大概都會重新再來去檢視那將來我們還會再去提出更好的你現在是籌備處啦其實我對於你們這個單位我寄予無限的期待謝謝委員你很簡單我剛剛講所有的法規"},{"start":5795.209,"end":5810.75,"text":"這裡面因為時間很有限我沒有辦法一一告訴你這裡面隨著科技的發展你所要防範的相關的可能洩漏個資或者可能在這個這個對人權保障上面其實你責任重大"},{"start":5811.755,"end":5832.876,"text":"所以你必須要走在你要跟著黃仁勳啊你不能落後黃仁勳啊你要跟著他知道說現在整個AI發展到什麼程度這一個科技的運用可能對人權對個資的保護產生什麼樣重大影響對岸已經在展現實力給你看嘛對岸從所有的消費行為"},{"start":5833.942,"end":5859.125,"text":"你一天你這一輩子你買了什麼東西資料Data清清楚楚你走在路上所有的資訊照著你人眼辨識清清楚楚所以如果不把這些個資保護做好如果今天啊這個個資保護的這個委員會這個籌備會不趕快來成立然後同時透過法規的建制AI齁運用不好齁他是極權主義的溫床"},{"start":5861.36,"end":5877.997,"text":"他是極權主義的問題那更多的想像是到底是人類用機器人還是未來機器人統治人類他都不再是科幻電影裡面的情節他可能會在真實世界裡面上演所以這個就是我對於"},{"start":5879.844,"end":5895.98,"text":"你們這個單位身兼對於人權保護對於個資的保護對到底科技的運用對人類帶來方便的同時我們應該要背後去想著人作為一個人的價值是什麼這個才是今天這個問題的關鍵"},{"start":5899.023,"end":5914.338,"text":"副主任你知道我所要表達的意思很清楚吧謝謝委員非常清楚那也非常感謝委員關心這個議題那我們其實目前也持續有在關注包含AI、KL、新興科技那我們其實有一些平台其實會跟各部會合作那另外我看了NCC的報告"},{"start":5915.259,"end":5937.417,"text":"如果你有報告裡面有提到三大電信業者你們馬上進行了行政調查三大電信業者對於這一次的輕鳥行動沒有任何的民間公司或個人跟三大電信業者購買這一次的數據對不對沒錯這個確定嘛除非三大業者說法對不對否則你的調查是這樣子沒錯"},{"start":5938.858,"end":5954.57,"text":"所以換言之不管任何人在運用我看到你的報告的結論就任何人在講述這一次的侵略行動在我看來只要業者沒有販售任何資料看起來都是自我想像的"},{"start":5955.43,"end":5983.967,"text":"對不對應該是這樣嘛就自己不管要上電視上廣播自己寫臉書基本上都是他自己的推論跟想像應該是這樣來理解沒錯所以我還是回到主題啦勿妄勿重啦就是不可以對於個資的保護人權的保障我們不應該隨著科技或者是哪一個政黨在執政我們要有所差別這個是捍衛台灣人的這個人權的價值跟"},{"start":5985.249,"end":6003.324,"text":"我們對於每一個人各自該有的保護其實它也是國家安全我們應該要不分黨派來把這件事情嚴格的把守好那最後剩下一個小小的問題那個副主任我們的籌備會到底要籌備到什麼時候才可以正式掛牌"},{"start":6003.925,"end":6031.742,"text":"是 跟那個蔡委員報告我們其實正在努力的持續因為這中間還會有一些研議的修法包含到個資法可能中間的一些跟組織職權的一些配套那我們大概是那個努力在明眼好 你要快一點喔修法齁 這個時候你提出來因為藍綠現在看起來都重視這個個資保護嘛不然今天主席就不會排這個題目嘛那既然大家都重視風都來了你還不揚帆你就是蠢蛋了嘛"},{"start":6032.338,"end":6056.289,"text":"所以趕快這些相關的修法這個院長也說嘛像這個就是大家有共識的藍綠有共識的這個修法應該要加速進行你的籌備時間也因為大家朝野立委支持對人權保護對於個資保護的支持所以你的速度應該要加快這樣可不可以是 謝謝我們盡快提出草案好 謝謝主席 謝謝大家好 謝謝副院長"},{"start":6057.991,"end":6071.889,"text":"副院長對今天這個議題持保留態度當然副院長有他的高度但是畢竟大數據這件事情已經發生在清了行動其實我跟副院長報告"},{"start":6073.391,"end":6092.192,"text":"我在上一次蔡英文總統選舉的時候我就看過這種東西了所以合法的流出與合法的不合法的流出這是一回事大數據的這個承辦同仁啊這個領導啊有沒有把東西不一定是買賣啊私底下流出去那才可怕"},{"start":6094.007,"end":6111.418,"text":"既然有這樣的一個王玉川執行長吐露出來,尤其他這樣重要職務吐露出來一個訊息這真是有問題所以我才設計把今天的議題定位到國家機器這一點我跟副院長報告下一位請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":6123.683,"end":6136.713,"text":"好 謝謝各位有請我們速發部黃部長、NCC我們陳主委以及我們這個法務部黃次長還有中華電信的郭董這個剛剛很多委員也講過了齁"},{"start":6143.37,"end":6172.149,"text":"這個本來一個劇本設計在1984年的一個劇本老大哥在watching他的人民啊結果40年之後啊奇怪我們現在也不知道到底是真的還是假的但是確定啊人民開始有一個懷疑了包括我們立法院也好我相信在座的主管嘛包括你們問了半天從早上到昨天的新聞前天的新聞大家基本基本上都是不是否認啦都說沒有嘛資料沒有這個沒有沒有全部都沒有齁"},{"start":6173.13,"end":6177.133,"text":"那現在的一個情況是他到底說了什麼?"},{"start":6193.814,"end":6219.03,"text":"第一個他正式講的就是王玉川民進黨政策會黨部的主管是主管不是隨便的黨工他講什麼呢他就把三個活動做對比嘛三個活動做對比很簡單嘛那這三個活動要怎麼做對比有些是在五六個月前五個月前的以113的選前之夜那就請問一下中華電信還是大數據中心有來嗎"},{"start":6220.131,"end":6233.788,"text":"你們現在如果今天我給你要資料要112當天在某個地方誰有去誰沒去你現在在你們的電腦裡面可以查到嗎就我現在現在假設合法給你要你有沒有這個數據"},{"start":6235.069,"end":6237.932,"text":"所以你們人潮分析有一個關鍵點是不是都要事前申請?"},{"start":6253.331,"end":6253.751,"text":"沒有辦法真的還假的"},{"start":6269.411,"end":6271.232,"text":"第二個關鍵字就是手機的訊號嘛來再看下一個"},{"start":6289.573,"end":6302.302,"text":"平常大型的活動都有這些市場調查公司在做包括最近的這些活動也都有在做那當然去對應到的是手機的門號那門號有沒有重疊門號有沒有出現停留多久大概都可以通這些資訊能夠得到所以這個是業界很經常用的一個方法"},{"start":6303.786,"end":6330.491,"text":"這是他第二個說法而且包括民進黨黨部的發言人也在幫他說了這個新北市、台北市都在做台南市也在做了做了這個人潮分析嘛你說過了嘛沒有辦法這個完全去識別性的有多少人去或魯明哲沒有去過你不能知道喔對不對那這個部分所以他講的兩件事情都是透過手機的訊號而且他在佐政他講的是對的那你看最新的發展是什麼昨天的發展是什麼"},{"start":6331.94,"end":6355.473,"text":"你看這麼多人幫他說話耶我看到我們這個民進黨的吳思耀委員昨天也幫他說話說我們幹嘛要開今年的會議啊這也是新北市台北市都在做的一般的人潮分析啊昨天才說完今天王一川昨天晚上就把他打臉啊怎麼打臉沒有看到昨天他又上節目啦他說我沒有資料啦我沒有資料啦"},{"start":6357.173,"end":6378.248,"text":"我只要看人、看直播、看影片我到現場用膝蓋想就知道了我告訴你這不是打電話我們之前幫他所有擋子彈的那些他的同志我覺得這真的非常非常扯所以我是現在我覺得很奇怪所以中華電信剛剛問你你大數據到底可不可以追溯那你現在你說"},{"start":6379.742,"end":6380.863,"text":"大約我沒有特別去統計"},{"start":6410.04,"end":6433.911,"text":"我建議你齁因為這個事情剛剛法務部也說了嘛會正在查你有很多這個訊息我建議你要跟你所有的廠商確認喔他們有沒有這方面的一個數據我也建議你再下一個層級跟你簽約的一個廠商做一個確認有沒有任何人提供類似的資料好不好給王先生這個部分我是建議你過來去做那法務部法務部黃市長"},{"start":6435.418,"end":6436.499,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6454.162,"end":6473.553,"text":"所以你們在31條還定義要徵修了網路上是什麼講得很清楚然後呢重點如果可以通過修法怎麼要調閱這些資料呢還要經過法院要法院同意耶所以這很嚴重但我是建議你們太辛苦了直接問王大哥你知道嗎"},{"start":6473.993,"end":6476.695,"text":"檢察官在5月29日犯案之後他就已經在積極的進行偵查了證據保全了沒有"},{"start":6498.246,"end":6524.202,"text":"報告委員這證據保全這個是社交檢查官的偵查步驟我這邊就第一個我也不知道我也不可能在這邊透露他的不是啊不要到最後這個什麼他自然是一個等於說車修部而已弄完之後什麼也沒有就簡單來講嘛這在手機這些資訊大數據都是可能刪除瞬間去處理的他到底跟誰通訊我因為我現在是推論這有可能是事實喔我有可能是事實喔"},{"start":6524.702,"end":6551.192,"text":"在這種事實之下有民眾檢舉了我覺得證據保全包括中華電信啊他大數據中心到底有沒有跟他來來往往啊相關的一些單位我覺得你們要去做一個證據保全不然到最後你們等最要啟動的時候事實上什麼東西都不見了所以我就給你建議啦我希望證據保全事實上查一個案子的最基本那接下來訴法"},{"start":6554.944,"end":6570.533,"text":"其實那天你有拜會我也跟你談過這件事嘛你覺得現在在技術上可不可以做到我們王大哥啦以前老大哥嘛王大哥他所說的這種情況三個活動誰有去誰被去是不是同樣的人這個你覺得在技術上可以做到嗎"},{"start":6571.033,"end":6572.434,"text":"副部長,說真的啦,這個技術的含量非常低啦"},{"start":6592.728,"end":6617.363,"text":"好不好,只要你資料給我啦,個人資料全部給我,我只要索引一下就知道誰幾歲了所以關鍵點這技術的,就是說當他沒有提供這些資料,完全沒有這些資料那現在的技術可以發展到哪一個活動去哪個活動沒去,這是蠻可怕的表示在四五個月前在凱道的時候就已經做了完整的紀錄有明確的紀錄才可以跟後面來比較的"},{"start":6618.484,"end":6643.133,"text":"我以為那個細部的那個系統的資料我想那個我們郭董事長比較清楚我目前報告中華電信的系統上的一切合法合遵我們在系統上沒有這樣的一個所謂的三個不同的時間點交叉比對這種功能沒有嗎那第二最重要的是它是一個去識別化而且是輪廓性分析所以沒有辦法去比對說某一天今天立法院我有來沒有來"},{"start":6644.389,"end":6655.595,"text":"所以你就一個中華電信的立場你是三大業者那有人在節目上說他用手機訊號去比對你覺得他的說法是什麼你說給個評價我不方便評論那是不是胡說八道不好意思講"},{"start":6667.301,"end":6690.38,"text":"其實這個事情發展到現在如果這個是真的我現在是保留是這樣我覺得萬一是真的真的很恐怖這不光是一個這個人民遭到可能的一個監控第二個勒還對政黨的活動這是政黨的一個增防政治增防這是一個說真的比想像還要嚴重非常多的一個情況那我覺得今天那NCC這個"},{"start":6692.532,"end":6721.035,"text":"陳主委我覺得一個機關一個機構我們是首長其實很多責任都要負但我們自己做錯事情我們自己要負我們下屬假設你的處長在外面亂說亂講或做錯一些事情你也難免跑不掉一些責任你就說對不對剛剛我們這個新的我們速發部部長如果你的次長在外面亂說或是犯錯你覺得你要不要負一點責任可能也要嘛對不對那我就要請教一下"},{"start":6722.318,"end":6738.235,"text":"我就請教一下這個因為其實現在應該是除了這些機關之外我就覺得很奇怪我們賴總統剛上任那他對這件事的立場到底說法"},{"start":6739.176,"end":6760.459,"text":"到底是什麼?因為我們只看到他5月25日針對於青鳥活動發了一個很感動的文我特別注意其中洪志最重要的他說更重要的是人民的基本權利需要受到保護不能任意侵犯人民的基本權利需要受到保護不能任意侵犯"},{"start":6761.516,"end":6788.408,"text":"他在525發文欸就一天之後王大哥就上台去講了所以賴總統出來講講話嘛因為你最關心的人的基本權利已經正在被監控正在欺販所以我覺得這個部分很奇怪啊再來今天我也沒到的另外你們剛剛講說如果你的下屬你的主管如果出了什麼錯你們都難逃一些的不管是政治責任也好"},{"start":6790.394,"end":6816.962,"text":"欸這奇怪啊王玉川不是路人甲欸他是民進黨政策會的執行長是一級的主管他是黨務的主管他上面除了秘書長就是主席啊我的天啊你們各個機關我們的員工可能犯錯你都會覺得有點不好意思我們的主管犯錯你要出來幫忙去做一個說明就是這樣嘛到現在賴總統請你出來說說話"},{"start":6819.686,"end":6833.593,"text":"賴主席你的黨務主管在節目上講這樣的讓人民憂心的事情請你出來面對黨務主管做這樣的事情如果都不用面對胡亂吞早就過去的話那怎麼去弄"},{"start":6834.824,"end":6835.064,"text":"今天是6月幾號?"},{"start":6856.107,"end":6884.921,"text":"今天是6月3日6月3日,所以是6月3日早上第一次接到這個案子的檢舉嗎?沒有,我們...6件,有6件了主委說真的啦,不管你是7月走不走或怎麼樣我是不知道啦,拜託一下好不好不要在這邊亂扯嘛我說,我只問一下,你幹嘛跟林國城委員說委員你要不要現在檢舉,你檢舉我就辦找錯人檢舉了,同樣的案子你還叫他檢舉嗎?是剛才林國城委員當場具名檢舉我知道嘛,之前有沒有人檢舉,來"},{"start":6886.101,"end":6887.222,"text":"最早幾月幾號選舉?來,最早的?最早的?對嘛"},{"start":6896.539,"end":6922.759,"text":"所以今天跟李國成委員檢不檢舉已經有人檢舉了好不好我覺得立委有人說立委也沒有多大我也認為嘛我們平常就是大家就要檢舉一般的民眾檢舉就是檢舉了你到底辦到怎麼樣你現在現在了解清楚嗎我覺得所有的身份都很清楚所以我們第一時間第一個先調查這個通訊這個資料的部分我們請上到電視業者來嘛那第二個來講的話這個有沒有落實事實查證的部分我們會請那個所謂的那個"},{"start":6925.595,"end":6942.064,"text":"我們吊債來處理然後意見陳述去處理這個議題依照法定程序去處理我希望齁這個罰60萬嘛齁你罰中天龍雀雄在上面講說是不是有監控的你當時的理由我最後念完就算了齁他說這邊你主要的理由齁"},{"start":6943.204,"end":6966.917,"text":"主持人為進一步詢問跟進行事實查證嚴重誤導民眾因參與政治活動致通訊資料遭收集造成個人資料外洩的恐慌損及民眾對於國家保障人民秘密通訊自由等等這是你在那一年"},{"start":6969.217,"end":6989.604,"text":"給中天的60萬的罰單內容我在看起來現在有過之而無不及我們希望查案的速度快一點我們希望你這個針對媒體類似情況的時候能夠快速了解能夠解決問題謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝魯明哲委員的發言"},{"start":6995.638,"end":7017.236,"text":"下一位請許富奎委員發言好,謝謝主席。我們有請書法部黃部長好,部長請"},{"start":7027.467,"end":7054.162,"text":"部長早安部長剛剛本席就您在剛剛的專案報告裡面有提到一個結語的部分就是說就技術層面來講的確可能運用手機的訊號分析個人的資料但除非同時取得所謂基地台的號碼跟帳戶客戶資料庫的資料進行交叉比對否則無法得知特定的一個年齡的分布是不是有這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":7056.519,"end":7081.486,"text":"對,對。但是重點是就是要做去識別化,沒有錯。部長,那我請教一般我們在什麼狀況之下會做這樣的處理?那個資料的應用,因為剛剛講說我們數位經濟需要資料使用嘛。那基本上資料是可以有它的價值。那做完去識別化以後,在法規的允許之下是可以做一些統計的分析跟處理。"},{"start":7082.886,"end":7100.004,"text":"對部長因為我們現在目前我們許多的縣市他們所謂辦一個大型的活動或一些商業的行為都需要一個大數據分析那他們可以照相關規定來跟我們的業者提出申請嗎但是我想個資保護的部分也是我們這個捍衛人權很重要的一個關鍵那目前"},{"start":7101.245,"end":7120.691,"text":"為止我想我們從各部會首長到我們的公務同仁系統我想大家都在依法行政那所以這部分我們另外再請教一下陳主委的部分請教主委那我們NCC就現行的一個機制如何去查驗電信驗者提供給外界的資料是否有去識別化怎樣做驗證"},{"start":7121.671,"end":7148.007,"text":"我們基本上來講依法規定來講的話電信業者都有這個所謂的個人資料安全維護計畫這個維護計畫裡面那我們會定期的去檢查而且那個電信業者也必須去內控去處理還有我們的這個定型化企業裡面都有相關的規定對主委因為現在對這大的爭議就是大家一直在質疑我們到底這個整個集合的一個制度這個對業者的一個管控的部分到底有沒有落實"},{"start":7148.948,"end":7160.749,"text":"是不是有私底下洩密的一個狀況這部分能不能再做一個具體說明我請我通常把我們那個集合的那個流程還有那個他們電信業者得到那個國際認證的部分跟委員前面說明一下"},{"start":7162.846,"end":7185.84,"text":"報告委員,因為我們三大電信業者都上市公司,而且是國際級的公司目前三大業者,我們ACC除了push他們朝向ISO認證以外目前三大業者都有通過國際相關機構的ISO或英國的BSI就是國際標準的一些認證,比如說ISO27001等等等"},{"start":7186.861,"end":7215.748,"text":"這些東西都是遵循國際的規範將這個制度建立在他們整體的公司文化和內控機制上面以上所以我想我們的電信業者應該不會自打嘴巴不會破壞他們自己的商譽因為這個要有相關法律責任的議題對所以這部分因為我們現在是數位的時代所以我們也是希望我們諸位包含我們數位部大家要來審慎面對這樣的一個議題我想這個議題不會今天在委員會問就結束了"},{"start":7216.308,"end":7216.528,"text":"我們請一下我們次長"},{"start":7248.224,"end":7267.938,"text":"公務員報告．法務部所主管的檢察官只有就個案的電信紀錄他就個案上才有就個案偵辦經過法官允許的調取票之後才可以調取相關的電信紀錄沒有通盤性的相關通信紀錄的分析跟資料庫沒有對阿所以不是外傳這樣子啦齁 大家都弄什麼歐洲料在那裡"},{"start":7270.418,"end":7294.395,"text":"好那另外我想除了這個監控的部分那另外我想針對打造的部分我目前科徵法裡面並沒有納入所謂一個設備端的一個通信監察所謂一個俗稱的一個小木馬進行這個犯罪嫌疑人監控那請教我們的數位部還是NCC目前是我們台灣沒有能力開發這個設備端的一個通信監察技術嗎未來是不是有辦法來做一個改善"},{"start":7296.188,"end":7316.082,"text":"各位報告那設備端監控的部分那涉及到這個技術本身要有第三方來驗證跟技術成熟的部分所以在國家還沒有這個這方技術第三方驗證的機制還沒起被狀況之下法務部的就是科技政策法就是木馬植入的木馬監控這部分我們新的這個科技政策法並沒有把修法進去"},{"start":7317.463,"end":7343.769,"text":"但是這個部分我想我們還是一樣要跟外界說明清楚這畢竟這個大家都在關心這個議題還有另外一個針對我們非外界的公共機關這個洩漏各自的情形不斷包含像我們一些的大型的一個企業的公司都有這樣一個訊息像華航、中華電信即使在修法仍然產生各自外界的情形那這部分我們相關的對應單位我們有沒有什麼樣一個方法、一個措施"},{"start":7346.335,"end":7362.307,"text":"報告委員關於這個比如說以電信事業來講的話如果有涉及到非公務機關洩漏個資我們都會進行相關的裁罰這個是電信公司必須要負責如果說他所掌握的個資被非法使用或洩漏的話這個必須依法去裁罰我們有相關的案例"},{"start":7363.456,"end":7387.787,"text":"好 謝謝那最後我再請教一下我們數位部黃部長部長上次本席在質詢的時候一直有提到我們屏東的這個數位發展落後的一個狀況那根據本席調查的資料我們在112年的部分像我們屏東縣完全都沒有所謂一個數位發展的一個成熟區那數位發展一個懵懂區有17個是全台最多的那另外就是"},{"start":7389.264,"end":7406.861,"text":"平東的那個發展的一個盲洞區有103個平東就占了六分之一那針對我們這樣一個資訊落後的部分我們有沒有什麼樣的一個盡情的作為我們一直在這邊就做這個平衡這個所謂數位落差還有用這個電信普及基金來做補助我是不是請那個是"},{"start":7409.053,"end":7409.273,"text":"事後再補資料給委員"},{"start":7438.558,"end":7445.923,"text":"好,謝謝許富奎委員的發言,休息十分鐘。待會等陳素月委員質詢完畢,我們處理臨時提案,謝謝。"},{"start":7471.755,"end":7471.815,"text":"本集完"},{"start":7476.73,"end":7476.75,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":7497.52,"end":7500.404,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7529.378,"end":7545.022,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7547.381,"end":7548.101,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7583.406,"end":7585.266,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7638.371,"end":7645.637,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7662.142,"end":7679.497,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":7682.312,"end":7708.882,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":7723.178,"end":7737.726,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7743.114,"end":7772.858,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7795.362,"end":7795.682,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7801.054,"end":7801.955,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7816.289,"end":7830.398,"text":"等下等下 我要去看那個 今天哥倆為什麼要去看 現在那個柳毅委員會議我要上節目啊 我今天上我剛剛上的節目你要找人家 你不找人家 我要上照康啊 我今天要上的節目"},{"start":7837.603,"end":7838.404,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7851.876,"end":7857.698,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7874.172,"end":7893.439,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7898.277,"end":7911.582,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7928.08,"end":7957.585,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7962.154,"end":7977.533,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7981.219,"end":7994.068,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8002.099,"end":8002.279,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8030.63,"end":8031.534,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8048.845,"end":8049.345,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8066.817,"end":8081.067,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8084.871,"end":8095.34,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8116.557,"end":8120.661,"text":"好,下一位請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":8148.012,"end":8153.356,"text":"謝謝主席我們請那個NCCNCC陳主委好那主委請教你就是說現在針對個人的"},{"start":8171.699,"end":8186.54,"text":"不是官方的其實我是認為請個人的不適合啦那不過就是說我們要整體去思考就是官方在處理事情的時候到底有什麼原則那符不符合社會的期待"},{"start":8187.952,"end":8215.265,"text":"所以就針對這一個用大數據去了解整個社群的動態是這個在法上是合法的話對不對對就是說跟委員報告一下其實我們在討論上個資還有數據其實應該說明有點區別了對個資去識別化以後不可回溯以後它就會變Big Data的一種那Big Data就是我們數位經濟數位產業在運用的一個非常重要的基礎資料"},{"start":8216.405,"end":8241.826,"text":"好,那這個在個人資料保護法這個我們都有提到是那另外就是說其實電信公司在跟個人簽約的時候這裡有一條是說用戶個人資料收集在底下那一條處理或利用的限制跟條件對也就是說你在簽這個電信的契約的時候通常都會簽嘛對不對有"},{"start":8242.927,"end":8256.062,"text":"那你可以用來做資料收集處理跟利用他有他的限制跟條件那這個也是合法啦那不過這一次像青鳥行動那有一些年輕人會覺得說哇我會被"},{"start":8259.341,"end":8279.797,"text":"會被調查那會不會洩漏到我的個資那在以我們的官方或者是電信公司的講法是說我都會跟你去世別犯你放心啦但是事實上人民就是不放心嘛當然所以我的主張是說可不可以要求在簽這個契約的時候比如說在這個第7條"},{"start":8281.198,"end":8307.837,"text":"用戶個人資料收集處理及利用之限制條件這個是我們都懂但是人民可能會擔心那你可不可以把這個識別去識別化把它加進去如果要修改因為第一個委員所講是電信管理第17條這個規定那如果有必要的話我們在未來這種行動寬頻的服務契約把它要求得更清楚應該是可以去處理所以我的意思就是NCC能夠跟各大電信公司聯絡就是說"},{"start":8310.509,"end":8336.392,"text":"我使用你這個資料如果做大數據是合法的我們都會口頭講說你放心我們都會去世別化但是這個口頭講的有時候人民在擔心的情況之下如果你把它去世別化就把它標明在上面嘛你放心嘛我就不可能個別資料給你寫下去這樣那這個部分如果有加注這些在條文裡面在契約裡面我相信人民的那一個"},{"start":8337.782,"end":8357.663,"text":"我覺得不信任感或覺得有可能個人資料被侵害的心態就可以減少所以這個部分是不是請主委能夠我們NCC能夠跟這些電信公司做一個整體的溝通然後把這個去識別化的字白紙黑字把它寫到裡面去"},{"start":8358.968,"end":8359.208,"text":"這個應該不用兩個月嗎?"},{"start":8381.708,"end":8401.258,"text":"不用一個半月我希望你卸任前把它完成現在是6月初嘛主委7月底卸任嘛7月底替人民再做一件有意義的事我們是馬上去處理我們盡快來處理還是給我們兩個月的時間好不好我們就去處理了兩個月你就卸任啦"},{"start":8408.342,"end":8434.879,"text":"先任前讓人民說我在處理所有大數據的時候電信公司也有白紙黑字證明說我們一定會趨勢變化所以這一部分人民以後你就可以少掉這些疑慮對啊你看我們可以看這些例子像台灣燈會在台中"},{"start":8435.96,"end":8448.814,"text":"盧秀燕他們也會去統計嘛我來這邊的人所有的來參加燈會包括新北耶誕城包括台北跨年晚會這個人流分析都很正常 對不對我的背景資料"},{"start":8450.137,"end":8475.267,"text":"整體的來這邊的背景、來這邊的年齡層、來這邊的狀況他們都可以提供大數據做分析我們稱之為叫輪廓性的資料就是說比如說20到40、40到60年紀、性別或是一個背景的輪廓性的資料是可以這個其實都是合法可以做分析、合法可以去買的沒錯"},{"start":8476.327,"end":8492.72,"text":"所以就是說我今天如果我個人有興趣我許志杰個人有興趣我也可以去跟電信公司說我要買你們這一部分的大數據的資料不過現在電信公司就了解來講他們通常還是商業用途的如果比較有正式性的他們比較會有疑慮的"},{"start":8494.611,"end":8505.856,"text":"商業用途完全沒有疑慮政治性的他們會考量他們會考量這個數據要不要那個其實如果是你去識別化去識別化我是覺得"},{"start":8507.472,"end":8525.853,"text":"不管誰去買都是屬於商業嘛對所以說比如說我個人想要了解台灣燈會我個人想要了解台北市跨年晚會的人流的分析是是是所以他們很難做區別對這沒有什麼政治性嘛這是我個人想要了解嘛那你有做這個大數據的分析我就花錢買嘛"},{"start":8526.814,"end":8543.444,"text":"沒錯,這個做公共政策上是很大的用途所以應該這個讓國人很清楚就是說你只要是大數據的部分只要是你用商業的角度誰都可以去買而且誰去買的資料都完全100%去識別化你放心"},{"start":8544.504,"end":8571.55,"text":"這樣子大家就很清楚啦所以這個部分希望說主委就是7月底前能夠把這件事情完成你7月底前那個是不是不管是如果再有質詢的機會如果沒有的話也把那個結果給我辦公室我們會用書面來跟委員會就是說這一個部分我們已經很確實白石英是改過了我覺得這個真的是一件功德讓人民不用擔心嘛"},{"start":8572.15,"end":8593.809,"text":"好不好?好,謝謝謝謝委員,謝謝好,謝謝許智傑委員的發言下一位請陳素月委員發言陳素月委員發言完畢以後我們處理臨時提案謝謝主席,請主席邀請陳主委還有黃部長好,黃部長請"},{"start":8603.008,"end":8606.634,"text":"王毅川先生在5月27日上政論節目的時候針對青鳥行動還有519民眾黨的活動"},{"start":8623.353,"end":8643.622,"text":"發言的內容引發了大家對於電信數據分析的使用的一些爭議事實上我們看到有關電信大數據的分析的運用是有利可循的而且是目前科技時代我們應該是我們在數據使用上的一部分"},{"start":8644.202,"end":8658.812,"text":"那我們看到包括就是新北也好臺北也好有關這個耶誕城的活動快年晚會或者是有關這個交通部對於這個智慧道路交通擁塞路段的一個大數據的一個分析或者是說有關"},{"start":8660.213,"end":8680.11,"text":"內政部對於全國電信信任人口的統計資料等等都是會運用電信數據的分析不過我想今天大家的爭議點可能就是說對於電信資料分析的使用有沒有去侵犯到個人人民的權益"},{"start":8682.112,"end":8699.126,"text":"事實上我想對於個人資料保護這樣子的是一個重要的人權這是不容侵犯的所以我們也希望就是說政府機關或者是一般我們的人民對這樣子的觀念都一定要這樣觀念而且我們政府機關也一定要"},{"start":8699.846,"end":8700.086,"text":"．首席"},{"start":8713.79,"end":8741.775,"text":"報告委員基本上依照我們電管法的第17條還有我們的要求我們有一個叫做那個個人資料維護辦法我們要求電信業者這個他們本來就是有所謂個人資料的維護計畫那我們依照這個計畫會定期去集合要求他們落實那個內控另外一個在這個行動寬屏的服務契約裡面對這個部分我們業者也要規範清楚而且要明確告知當事人"},{"start":8743.539,"end":8759.299,"text":"我們一定有一定的規範所以這樣子的規範下的數據資料就是說剛剛主委在回答其他委員的質詢的時候有提到這個是可以透過申請購買的管道取得如果已經變成數據的話"},{"start":8768.508,"end":8780.459,"text":"對,就是一定要去識別化。那我在這邊再請教一下就是說,針對王逸川他這樣子的發言啊,他曾經跟我們就是相關的電信公司取得相關的資料嘛,就您的了解。"},{"start":8780.885,"end":8799.992,"text":"就我們在5月30日調查三大電信業者都表示並沒有有這種情況出現所以說王宇春先生並沒有跟他們去說取得或是購買這些相關的資料是沒有跟我們三大電信業者取得那如果說有可能透過民間業者來取得這些資料嗎"},{"start":8800.84,"end":8815.497,"text":"這個可能要問王佑川先生才知道因為做大數據分析的基本上來說電信公司以外還有很多的民間比如說資訊服務公司、服務業或市場調查或者辦活動的這種他們可能都有做這些大數據的分析"},{"start":8816.178,"end":8816.578,"text":"短短的兩天25、26號我們"},{"start":8832.527,"end":8849.268,"text":"有辦法去做出這樣子的一個分析嗎?就那個黃部長您瞭解的話,我們民間業者有這個能力做這些相關的一個分析嗎?就是說資料散佈在不同系統,那你要使用資料一定要經過一些許可,那會有行政的流程"},{"start":8849.949,"end":8875.646,"text":"那我個人啦我個人覺得這個時間而且剛剛講幾萬筆資料要去做去識別的話而且要再做這些統計分析應該沒辦法那麼快做得到應該沒有辦法對技術上可行但時間上包括行政流程包括拿到許可包括技術上再去運作幾萬筆資料的而且是從這個很大的數據裡面去找出這幾萬筆再去比對我覺得這個"},{"start":8877.347,"end":8905.756,"text":"應該會有它的困難度這是我的從技術面判斷就我們NCC陳竺耳跟黃部長這邊所回覆的就是說就我們管理單位那個相關的這個三大業者也沒有提供那我們就技術層面來說在短短的幾天之內兩天之內要做這樣子而且這個還要經過管理機關的一個同意包括這個基地台服務的用戶號等等這些取得不是那麼容易"},{"start":8906.556,"end":8931.696,"text":"所以就這個部分來說真的還是一個羅生門不過因為這件案子目前也已經進入了這個司法調查的一個程序我們就留待這個司法單位去做進一步的一個偵查跟了解那在這邊本席要針對就是說事實上有關這個資安的問題不管是個人資料的一個保護這個是不變的一個原則然後"},{"start":8932.737,"end":8950.334,"text":"其實國家資安也是非常的一個重要那我們也希望就是說我們不分朝野啦我們對這個個人資料保護的一個重視還有這個資安的一個重視我們應該都是要一致的啦那我們也知道就是說有關這個抖音、TikTok或者小紅書的一個使用"},{"start":8950.894,"end":8969.843,"text":"目前就我們看到了美國媒體也有揭露就是說證實這個TikTok大約就是每14天就會向中國北京公司傳送數十萬美國用戶的個資包括這些資料包括就是美國用戶的姓名、電子郵件還有IP地址及地理人口的統計"},{"start":8971.283,"end":8993.236,"text":"的訊息。然後抖音的前員工也有證實就是說這些他們會把用戶的個資傳回這個中共所以這個對於我們的這個個資的一個侵害是非常的一個嚴重所以我們也希望我們我們國內不分朝野不分政府人民都要去共同面對跟重視這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":8994.577,"end":9018.419,"text":"那這個對TikTok因為在我們臺灣沒有落地那未來不曉得就是說在這樣子的一個狀況下他如果未來也不可能配合落地那目前這樣子的狀況之下我們書畫部對於TikTok的就是說相關的就是訊息的一個使用我們有沒有什麼強制的手段去做一個維護"},{"start":9020.559,"end":9048.037,"text":"報告委員就是當然就是說我們這個我們的打就是說我們現在打造法通過之後會要求他們落地那如果不落地我們就根據打造法來來處置那但這個處置方法可以包括就是包括可能就是反正就是用電信管理的方法來管制他這樣子所以我想這個我們還是期待先用法律先要求他們落地那再從落地不配合我們再來處置這樣根據處罰辦法"},{"start":9050.098,"end":9053.021,"text":"好,謝謝陳素月委員的發言我們現在處理臨時提案本日共有二案,請議事人員一併宣讀"},{"start":9083.342,"end":9098.742,"text":"臨時提案一再無正當法律授權自前提下取得未具識別化自群眾資料用於政治偵訪與群眾運動之數據分析恐違反通訊保障及監察法、個人資料保護法等相關規定時有限"},{"start":9099.262,"end":9127.163,"text":"此有為我國人權保障之意旨更有損我國自由民主之國家形象原始未釐清爭議請國家通訊傳播委員會於一個月內清查近三屆總統、副總統之下市長及縣市長選舉期間國內政治活動之群眾各自是否遭不當使用或有外洩之予向交通委員會提交書面報告提案人委員盧明哲等"},{"start":9128.445,"end":9147.106,"text":"臨時提案2我國雖通過個人資料保護法但人權缺對個資運用資監管制度與明確規範亦未規定去識別化及合理運用個資之範圍不但造成民眾個資外洩引誘政府或"},{"start":9148.85,"end":9166.931,"text":"業者運用相關資料實役無所是從中上提案要求個人資料保護委員會籌備處會同國家通訊傳播委員會數位發展部及相關機關就政府機關與民間業者之各自運用規定去識別化"},{"start":9168.254,"end":9197.251,"text":"合理運用範圍及監管機制等四項建立完整制度並每三個月以書面向立法院交通委員會提出進度報告以利國家數位發展與個資保護提案人委員林國成等宣布完畢好,請問各位委員第一案有沒有意見?沒有啊?有嗎?沒有就通過啦"},{"start":9199.724,"end":9227.793,"text":"好通訊會來說明主席各位委員大家好關於那個臨時提案第一案裡面我們那個修正建議的部分已經請各位委員著參了那我們是建議第一個因為這個要這個相關資料其實那個數目字來講的話是放的蠻廣的那所以我們建議說這個時間可不可以給我們是三個月而且我們剛才也請教過這些相關的"},{"start":9228.633,"end":9242.527,"text":"電信業者裡面來講的話他們的資料呢大概是以最近才一年內的為主了那另外剛才這個提案裡面後面有個國內政治活動是群眾個資因為個資的範圍非常非常的大那我們本會呢"},{"start":9243.848,"end":9244.968,"text":"你這個要三個月幹什麼啊我告訴你15天就弄好了"},{"start":9270.27,"end":9285.073,"text":"我沒有向你要什麼東西,向你要什麼嗎?我有跟你講說要清查以前總統、副總統什麼職家市長選舉的什麼東西嗎?那已經過去的事情了,你也講你也查不到資料了嘛,是不是?"},{"start":9286.013,"end":9301.984,"text":"那就是說這裡面就講說你有沒有去介入這裡面的問題有就有沒有就沒有嘛你就打死不認賬啊你會承認嗎你會承認嗎你報告還沒寫我就已經知道你報告要寫什麼了我告訴你啦這要三個月喔"},{"start":9306.767,"end":9333.06,"text":"我跟你講15天就夠了報告召委他這個資料他還是要向三大業者來索取嘛那你跟公家機關公家機關你可以要他15天內一個月內要交出我跟妳報告齁三大業者會承認啦那承認的話準備明天去坐牢啦我跟你講啦他不會承認打死不認賬嘛就跟你去外面偷女人一樣的道理你回去跟老婆會講嗎"},{"start":9334.517,"end":9335.037,"text":"李昆哲委員"},{"start":9366.826,"end":9382.701,"text":"啊?你講過魯敏哲委員報告主席好,你先講沒關係他說三個月嘛,折衷兩個月就好了啦等一下,發言完畢再說來,魯敏哲委員先講"},{"start":9386.353,"end":9406.956,"text":"謝謝主席其實這個其他的文字修正我覺得我們都可以接受啦除了三屆這個總統副總統你說一年之內我覺得這個我們可以接受啦然後就針對各自的範圍就三家行動這個電信事業這個部分我覺得也OK啦但是你這個多久提這個報告"},{"start":9408.297,"end":9437.388,"text":"我覺得你改成三個月要不要改成就是提供報告在陳耀祥卸任之後兩個月之後卸任以後啊卸任之後不是三個月因為現在目前看起來不知道任期只要你陳主委你已經走人了啊對所以一個月的意思就是說你又推喔我們希望在這一個任期之內因為現在六月了一個月之內能夠提供給我們這樣的一個報告7月底以前好不好不要然後"},{"start":9439.025,"end":9453.284,"text":"不是他7月31號提出來他8月1號走人啊還不一樣呢報告委員NCC我只是一個過客而已啊我走後面還有NCC還是在啊什麼過客你是主任委員一個過客對啦那我7月31你早一點講嘛你早一點講我們早一點把你幹掉啊"},{"start":9454.045,"end":9460.75,"text":"那個行政機關要兩個月、三個月本席沒有什麼特別意見但是我是覺得竟然要叫他們寫報告我是覺得只有針對政治活動選舉活動的這個這種個資等等我是覺得這樣不夠"},{"start":9483.274,"end":9511.988,"text":"我覺得應該要直接就像本席剛剛質詢也特別去提到資料的運用地方政府也在用公司行號也在用然後到底什麼東西是可以用什麼東西是不可以用我覺得這個報告裡面應該含括除了魯明哲委員所提的這些資料以外竟然給他比較多的時間所以本席建議應該要把那個太陽把它弄出來"},{"start":9513.545,"end":9535.054,"text":"讓立法院瞭解也讓社會去瞭解說現在這些資訊的販售它的運用裡面我看到太多的包括地方政府全台灣各地的地方政府不論是藍執政、綠執政大家都在運用這些大數據的資訊然後公司行號我看也在運用這個大數據所以應該這個報告裡面詳細來署名"},{"start":9539.187,"end":9557.516,"text":"什麼叫做大數據可運用的範圍那什麼是不可以被運用的我覺得這個太陽也請在這個報告裡面一併讓立法院跟社會大眾去了解這樣對個資的保護才全面不是我們我們談這個不是只有限於政治的活動"},{"start":9558.852,"end":9573.292,"text":"或選舉我認為這樣不是太充足不過副縣長他主要在突選這一次侵犯人權所涉及到的政治活動主要是這個你如果把其他的太陽啦其他的資料全都放進來的話"},{"start":9574.614,"end":9595.968,"text":"反而無法凸顯這個政治活動的這裡面我們所提的主題會偏離了當然會寫一本書但其中可能只有一兩頁是牽涉到這裡面主席這個我沒有意見因為你有個人各朝野政黨各委員有各自的立場我都尊重那本席提要把我的意見講清楚"},{"start":9596.368,"end":9611.689,"text":"我知道人權的侵犯問題我們今天很簡單嘛今天大家談的是什麼大家談的是希望各自保護人權不要有侵犯對人權的保障那我認為這個題目中我剛剛的質詢我也再一次強調我不把主席的格局做小嘛"},{"start":9612.19,"end":9628.636,"text":"我認為主席是一個很有格局、大格局的人所以我想主席應該是對於整體國家人權的保障、個資的保護我想應該站在這個角度我們來做一個全面性的檢討當然你要檢討這個案我本席也不反對我剛剛已經講過了好 謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝副院長羅志強委員"},{"start":9633.186,"end":9657.396,"text":"大家都知道我對我們陳耀祥主委向來沒有什麼正面評價今天我第一次正式的肯定你為什麼呢你赤裸裸的陽謀很簡單嘛三個月後你就拍拍屁股走人嘛那為什麼要肯定你因為你也知道不要幫王逸川背書嘛你也不想穿透這個混水可能也跟你沒有關係可是我要特別講今天王逸川"},{"start":9658.456,"end":9678.994,"text":"他今天變身為天眼局對人民做政治爭訪這是直接侵害民主的核心也侵害人民的權益所以我覺得雖然我們陳主委可能不想要幫王逸川擔但是人民等得起這三個月嗎"},{"start":9680.342,"end":9695.316,"text":"人民其實想要的是一個盡快的答案抱歉我覺得不只是人民喔這個提案我非常贊成我覺得我們檢察機關也應該要動起來了吧現在我們的王一川已經在改口在串供啦已經在改口啦"},{"start":9696.577,"end":9723.599,"text":"從天眼局變成膝蓋局啊現在已經說是用膝蓋想我說三大電信可以廢了啦三大電信公司你們比不過王逸川的膝蓋啦你們還要一堆程序去才能夠申請到這一台資料然後去比對這個手機訊號才能夠做所謂的那個識別化的一個訊息或去識別化的訊息王逸川不用啦他用膝蓋就可以了啦他用膝蓋就可以了這邊我也要跟民進黨呼籲一下"},{"start":9724.827,"end":9734.847,"text":"你們不要忘了王逸川不是王逸川啊王逸川是民進黨政策會執行長也是民進黨不分區的立委的名單上接下來排行就是他啦"},{"start":9736.596,"end":9736.736,"text":"徐志杰委員"},{"start":9767.106,"end":9778.383,"text":"主席大家好我還是呼應一下剛才那個蔡其昌委員提到的就是說我們希望說什麼是可以合法去買"},{"start":9779.95,"end":9807.707,"text":"什麼事要去識別化你要把整體的資料這樣子一個方向大數據的狀況很清楚的告訴國人就像我剛才質詢的一樣也就是你今天我不管是不是政治是不是商業你今天任何人要去買的大數據的資料你就是有權利可以去買這就是商業嘛那你今天你在我人民會覺得恐慌你要如何去識別化"},{"start":9808.686,"end":9824.051,"text":"你把它定在條約裡面或者是你把它定在契約裡面或者是你把它很清楚地讓人民知道我所作所為完全就是大數據的提供任何的個人的資料如果有被洩漏的我們就法律處理"},{"start":9825.251,"end":9847.45,"text":"很清楚 這個不是 這個就是一個正常的一個行為嘛但是要要求 我要怎麼樣讓人民不擔心 讓合法的可以去購買我是覺得應該是整體考量所以剛剛蔡吉昌委員提到了 我是認為說你就是整體中華電信 三大電信要給我們一個這樣子的交代嘛好 謝謝許志堅委員 陳樹委員發言下面游浩委員 翁曉霖委員"},{"start":9853.461,"end":9869.17,"text":"謝謝主席就是這個對個人資料保護是基本的人權我想這個都是不容侵犯的所以我也呼應我們蔡啟昌副院長的他的一個主張就是我們對於這個資料的一個保護我們就是要有一致性"},{"start":9870.271,"end":9870.591,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9890.967,"end":9891.207,"text":"謝謝何主委員 下面有號委員"},{"start":9917.588,"end":9930.783,"text":"主席你給我改信啊你給我改信啊主席還沒睡醒啊睡完對不起啊我沒有睡覺我沒有睡覺好 有沒有人"},{"start":9932.708,"end":9955.755,"text":"謝謝三位那我其實認為目前來講黃玉川的這案其實社會大家都在關注那搶救玉川天兵這個大家都在關注那所以說其實在大概大家不管是藍綠的委員都提到個資很重要嘛人權不用侵犯嘛那其實在目前來講NCC這個三個月兩個月其實都太久了"},{"start":9956.515,"end":9972.291,"text":"其實大家都在共同矚目這個案子到底他是如何取得這些去世文化的資料所以其實是建議說也要讓我們不管是中華電信或是三大電信業者能夠趕快證明清白應該是要在兩個禮拜之內的話就要公布這個報告跟數據了謝謝"},{"start":9979.873,"end":10002.466,"text":"是在這邊跟各位委員報告因為其實NCC他主管的是電信管理法所以在這裡的提案裡面只有說這個數據分析恐違反通訊保障監察法、個資法等等相關法規我建議還再加上電信管理法恐違反電信管理法然後並且也要要求就是這三家電信業者那麼"},{"start":10003.612,"end":10026.826,"text":"他們在這個就是要調查的這段期間裡面然後所販售給其他這個私人公司的所有的這些資料都應該要提報這以上建議這裡面就是執政黨反對黨嘛執政黨講的是人權嘛公開等等"},{"start":10027.745,"end":10053.985,"text":"那反正講的就是看不見的那隻手啦你如果說大數據去買賣OK啦問題就不是搞買賣嘛私底下提供嘛問題出在這裡那你現在要大數據你要中華電信要業者三大業者去提供你打死他他也不會認賬啊所以這個時間為什麼要三個月我真搞不懂所以陳主委你要退休了你看你把時間就如同那個羅德強委員講的好來"},{"start":10057.493,"end":10081.114,"text":"謝主席我想這樣子大家只卡在時間啦齁時間我想折衷一下啦齁三個月不是會期中間你突然提個報告我們也沒開會我覺得這樣子實在不好那最多最多就7月16號我們現在演會演到7月16號那正好一個半月的時間剛好今天2號嘛齁就一個半月的時間好不好7月16你也不會來啊我知道但至少是在他送來了嗎已經5點了"},{"start":10083.171,"end":10103.172,"text":"我是建議啦最多最多我們是希望一個月但是我想最多就一個半月至少我們在會期的期間能夠拿到這個報告剩下看主席能夠裁示至於說如果有其他的公司甚至政府的大數據資料我們看到我們副院長剛剛有提到的我個人也支持啦可能另外邀請"},{"start":10103.933,"end":10103.993,"text":"7月15日"},{"start":10120.195,"end":10149.218,"text":"7月15日你不要再講了啦你再講的話就變成7月3日等一下現在才6月3日這個很快嘛我告訴你我當你的下面10天就提供給你的啦你知道嗎你下面打死不認帳的啦你放心啦你把打死他都不會認帳啦7月15好不好郭正雄這你提到案子嗎"},{"start":10151.283,"end":10159.21,"text":"我這魯明哲提的嘛,魯明哲委員提的7月15好不好?7月15啦齁?那個蔡副院長勒?就這個問題啦,很單純"},{"start":10166.311,"end":10192.812,"text":"那蔡委員長所提的齁,那可以啦,我們譽為反犯的話,那個可以弄一本出來?報告主席,蔡委員長所提的那個事在第二案裡面是可以處理的,第二案裡面有這個部分是可以處理的好不好好不好,蔡委員長我們很尊重他啦好不好齁而且他在這邊講話都直立有聲啦齁,我們也不得不尊重好不好,這樣好不好阿兄,可以齁?好好謝謝,好第一案齁"},{"start":10196.224,"end":10213.235,"text":"什麼還念一下?誰改了下面?就一個月半嘛,就7月15日以前嘛,就這樣就好了,修正這幾個字,其他不動啦。誰改的?下面是誰改的?"},{"start":10215.008,"end":10243.897,"text":"有那個後面,因為我們提供的是行動通訊器所持有的個資,所以這要改,因為我們是三大事...那你們念一遍嘛,我沒改啊,是誰改的?是盧委員改的嗎?那現在把這個最後修正的請同仁念一下同仁念一下好了盧委員他下面有改喔?他下面有改?盧委員認真?拿給盧委員看一下"},{"start":10245.031,"end":10247.036,"text":"後面是NCC改的"},{"start":10253.315,"end":10275.973,"text":"臨時提案一倒數倒數第四行開始原此為釐清爭議請國家通訊傳播委員會於7月15日前清查最近清查最近一年內之總統副總統之下市長及縣市長選舉期間國內政治活動之群眾各自"},{"start":10277.392,"end":10289.539,"text":"三家行動電信事業系統所持有之個資是否遭不當使用或有外洩之餘向交通委員會提交書面報告。宣布完畢"},{"start":10321.633,"end":10335.323,"text":"修正通過修正通過可以啊,第二案沒聽清楚就算啦,誰叫他不聽第二案提案說明嘛"},{"start":10337.643,"end":10338.306,"text":"有沒有委員有意見?"},{"start":10341.243,"end":10366.644,"text":"來 我跟各位報告一下我不同意他們提出這個修改要6個月還有什麼只有針對電信業以及手機姓名我提案的這個主要是建議我們資料個人資料保護籌備處這裡要積極去做要做的問題就是它涵蓋除了電信之外"},{"start":10367.584,"end":10384.481,"text":"還包括APP啊LINE啊或這些東西要如何去做保障我要他是在三個月以內做這些但是這裡我同意也就是出自的提案要求行政院敬邀"},{"start":10385.302,"end":10398.446,"text":"也就是因為資料保護委員會籌備處他人員比較少所以我們把他加在競邀行政院以個人資料保護籌備處這裡會同國家安全還有數位部及有關單位這個部分我那個他原來的這個籌備籌備處這個修改這個原則性我是不同意我是同意"},{"start":10412.13,"end":10434.159,"text":"他們人不夠,我們就拜請我們行政院這裡啊,金腰行政院,這裡來做一個籌措,把各有關單位去做那個,原則性我還是保持三個人。郭董委員,你改的版本我們看不到啊。有啊。每個人都有嗎?有啊,每一個人都有啊。你那老半天我一個字都找不到。哪裡啊?"},{"start":10443.883,"end":10450.548,"text":"不是,你們沒有交出來,我們沒有看到好啦,他們又是在...倒數第七行有沒有"},{"start":10451.502,"end":10473.456,"text":"提案要求提案要求這邊勾進去行政院邀集,提案要求行政院邀集個人資料保護是行政院來邀集行政院邀集很奇怪,行政院誰啊?院長啊?他怎麼可以邀集這個?"},{"start":10476.178,"end":10500.031,"text":"不過關財兄你說提案要求行政院邀集,行政院那就秘書長齁我這個特別跟主席報告,原來我是要求個人資料保護籌備處他們來做我知道我知道我知道那如果是這樣行政院可以拿掉個人資料保護委員會籌備處去年成立的嘛是不是"},{"start":10501.891,"end":10525.112,"text":"對 是的掛牌是那叫你們單位幹什麼主席我可以說明一下你們就要繼續負責溝通協調的工作啊是是是好你講跟主席報告一下我們這邊應該是不用行政院應該是我們籌備出來就可以了這個先說明一下齁那不用到你說什麼你說什麼這個部分就是維持原提案就是由我們來會同相關的機關其實就可以了所以建議是可以不用到行政院不要行政院"},{"start":10525.632,"end":10528.174,"text":"等一下通訊傳播委員沒問題他會同你們啊還有數位發展部有沒有問題"},{"start":10555.148,"end":10584.307,"text":"沒問題?那這張都沒問題嗎?誰想有問題?他這邊還有改,他這邊要改改什麼?又改什麼?他要改一些有?副院長來郭誠胸的提案齁基本上沒有什麼問題但是裡面的問題在哪裡?就是郭誠胸如果按照他的原提案這個今天這些部會恐怕不夠因為個資的保護等等這些問題只要他有蒐集過你的資訊的行業通通要保護嘛"},{"start":10585.396,"end":10596.504,"text":"所以我看那個行政單位的建議他把他在所謂電信跟手機的信號對不對因為你談這些個資保護365行各行業他都有個資保護"},{"start":10603.12,"end":10618.75,"text":"你只要申請任何一個東西你都有可能個資的問題嘛所以你要把它你不當然會同國家通訊你連會同經濟部會同所有各等於所有各部會你都要了嘛所以我的意思就是說如果針對"},{"start":10620.23,"end":10621.571,"text":"郭忠雄,會員也是好意"},{"start":10643.888,"end":10658.393,"text":"因為你的牽涉太廣了,你不如就寫倒數一二三四五舊政府的部分,舊政府機關與民間業者的部分改為優先優先舊電信業者這樣就單純了嘛優先舊電信業者之手機信令信什麼令啊?"},{"start":10674.898,"end":10681.869,"text":"信號啦吼?這手機信號?這樣就好了嗎?"},{"start":10684.605,"end":10710.574,"text":"那6個月不要啦,3個月啦這個主席我再度建議啦個人資料保護委員會的籌備處他要做的是很廣大的這些個資的問題他現在要求我去把它改為只有電信這裡面沒有APP也沒有什麼其他包含啦,包含啦"},{"start":10710.974,"end":10735.273,"text":"所以這個部分我說實在的就變成NCC跟數位部他們只做他們那其他都不要做嗎所以我的意思就你可以優先去做什麼但是你還是要有個資保護所以我提這個案當然會很大很廣但是是你個人資料保護籌備處的責任嘛"},{"start":10740.605,"end":10758.104,"text":"主席我來幫國城兄再修正一下啦應該是這樣說啦其中有一段就不要了啦就數位發展部及相關機關沒有就是不用講那個政府機關跟民間業者啦你就直接他要的就是那個架構嘛就是"},{"start":10759.572,"end":10785.729,"text":"會同國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部及相關機關就各自運用規定去識別化合理與運用範圍及監管機制等事項這樣對嗎?好,就這樣那還是三個月喔?不是六個月喔?可以喔?好這個要表決嗎?"},{"start":10787.762,"end":10802.89,"text":"你們既然雙方都假動了,表決一下好了嘛送走啊,通通都假動了,來這邊不表決舉手一下不好玩啊好啦,就修正文字通過"},{"start":10808.468,"end":10833.348,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢,如果有委員對上述提案補簽的話,列入記錄並刊登公報。好,繼續我們請翁曉琳委員。所有委員對不起啊,我明明要喊陳素玉委員啊,怎麼弄錯啦?我說什麼?合啊?對不起啊,對不起。"},{"start":10838.262,"end":10840.848,"text":"謝謝主席主席辛苦了有請陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":10849.382,"end":10850.263,"text":"這是行之有你的事情"},{"start":10878.305,"end":10903.292,"text":"好行之永年的事情很好那人流分析的服務包含哪些項目基本上包含了用戶的基本資料數位通路足跡傳統電信數據和行動通信足跡以及還可以幫這個有需求的企業可以做客製化的提供特定的資訊大家看看這個用戶的基本資料包含什麼"},{"start":10903.792,"end":10932.606,"text":"年齡、性別、興趣、手機型號、信用的程度、數位、通路足跡、包含所有瀏覽過的網頁、行動通信足跡等等所停留的地點甚至還可以克制化業者的要求那麼我們到底現在的電信三大電信業者有沒有在做事實上當然是有而且他們可能已經做了好幾年了來請下一頁看看中華電信他們在他們自己的網頁上面所"},{"start":10934.295,"end":10944.532,"text":"提供的這個相關的資訊中華電信AI大數據的應用產品然後裡面有人潮客群分析平台他告訴你他可以收集了有多少的這個數據資料來下一頁"},{"start":10948.294,"end":10965.788,"text":"接下來大家看一看中華電信可以做到什麼程度他可以去進行客群分析包含現在的這個族群他是本國人還是大陸人還是外國人他的人潮分析的區域是在哪一個區域他都可以做到的非常精準"},{"start":10967.233,"end":10995.605,"text":"不僅如此我們再看看這個遠傳遠傳呢他也提供相關的人潮的這個大數據分析他還可以精準到他喜歡什麼樣的這個手機的品牌那麼他的年齡層他是屬於什麼樣的這個階級等等這樣的大數據分析依照現在電信管理法的角度來講這樣的做法合理嗎"},{"start":10996.479,"end":10997.501,"text":"是,所以NCC都沒有責任"},{"start":11008.783,"end":11027.997,"text":"而不是說沒有責任,而是說我們這個部分來講的話所以我們為什麼說我們管的就是說各自的保護這一塊這是一定要落實的那大數據這個部分來講的話當然比如說業者這邊來講的話他如果有肯逾越的這些比如說去識別化的這些要求或是不可迴逆的這個要求來講的話當然要注意"},{"start":11030.078,"end":11048.755,"text":"來我們看一下不僅是業者有這個需求內政部也是好他們做了電信性力的人口統計資料這都是運用基地台訊號可以進行非常廣泛的各式各樣的資訊的分析民間組織也可以依自身的需求彈性調整指標的權重在下頁大家知道嗎電信"},{"start":11050.636,"end":11067.659,"text":"內政部的電信信令人口統計資料還可以對外收費也就是說當時這些電信信令他是基於公共利益或是公共政策而做的這些統計資料還可以對外販售請問被收集資料的電信用戶知道這件事情嗎?"},{"start":11068.587,"end":11097.506,"text":"我們這個相關的這些規定來講的話比如說我們的電信化企業裡面都有要求比如說在處理醫藥的部分這個我們現在看到在我們電信用戶的各自保護條款裡面最主要的法律就是電信管理法的第9條電信事業它必須要保存電信用戶的這個所產生的通信記錄以及賬戶記錄並且要給予一定的保密違反的話還有重罰好那下一頁那麼在相關的各自保護條款裡面我必須要說"},{"start":11098.727,"end":11112.431,"text":"NCC怠惰嚴重的違法失職大家看看我們在消保會101年這個當時修正的行動通信網路業務服務契約版本裡面有清楚的講就是這個電信業者"},{"start":11114.312,"end":11131.45,"text":"他所掌握的電信用戶的相關資料附有保密義務而且不得對第三人揭露這個條文到現在為止也沒有修所以呢我們現在看到所有的電信公司的相關的服務契約裡面的保密條款寫得非常非常簡單"},{"start":11132.791,"end":11155.151,"text":"對於所謂的去識別化這件事情是誰來認定去識別化的資訊是否已經達標是否符合我們的各自保護法以及我們的這個世界以及我們的GDPR等等相關法規是由業者自己說的算嗎?報告委員基本上來講的話我們有要求業者依照他們的所謂各自維護計畫去處理"},{"start":11157.264,"end":11174.625,"text":"我要講這就是NCC怠惰電信業者是你們所監理你們所要求這個他們要善盡保護電信用戶的個資這相關權益可是在過去這段時間裡面你們根本沒有修"},{"start":11177.046,"end":11203.281,"text":"這個相關的服務契約那麼以及對於民眾到底是不是知道他們自己的資料已經被用來分析以及民眾是不是應該要有相關的權利可以選擇退出這些數據分析計劃你們無作為在這個相關的電信化企業裡面來講話主體利用收集這個都有應該當時有告知那是非常抽象模糊請問在座的各位你們知道你們的"},{"start":11204.844,"end":11218.769,"text":"有哪些資訊是被電信事業所使用嗎以及他們所收集資料之後他們是怎麼樣的去再利用嗎我們一般的老百姓一般的電信用戶是完全無所知而您擔任了NCC主委6年委員8年"},{"start":11220.31,"end":11227.953,"text":"整個的NCC看起來在這方面是沒有作為的本席感到非常的遺憾了不要把這些事情不要把這些問題都丟到個資法你們是電信管理法的電信事業的主管機關電信管理法裡面就有要求而你們沒有根據個資法"},{"start":11240.857,"end":11245.904,"text":"去要求電信事業要善加做到要去識別化這去識別化不是由電信業者自己單方來認定什麼樣的這個資訊去識別化報告委員我們現在補充一下就是我們現在因為電信管理法實施以後我們都已經有督導電信業者來"},{"start":11260.161,"end":11278.368,"text":"修訂相關的消費者保護契約還有定型化契約的規範我們最新版本大概是在37條我們都有要求要請電信業課金而格遵各自保護法相關規定還有剛剛委員有提到所以他們認為他們有遵守了規定你們就認為他們做到了嗎沒有一個查核的機制電信業者就是球員兼裁判認為哪些資訊是軍事別話他們說了算嗎"},{"start":11289.733,"end":11296.801,"text":"沒有沒有,我們本來就每一年都有外部集合機制存在,對是,我有看到你們的集合機制的那個計畫之抽象之模糊根本沒有把我們剛剛講的那些現在電信業者所進行的人流分析的數據列為是查核的"},{"start":11306.271,"end":11307.072,"text":"下一位請何清淳委員發言"},{"start":11342.219,"end":11346.583,"text":"謝謝陳雪生召委我們是不是先請訴發部黃部長訴發部黃部長黃部長好我想我們今天都在談我們人民的個資的保護這是一定要的這是我們一定政府要去維護的人民的權益"},{"start":11366.397,"end":11374.87,"text":"今天談的不管是電信業者或者是我接下來要談的第三方支付我覺得保護人民的個資維護人民的權益"},{"start":11378.001,"end":11404.437,"text":"不僅僅是政府甚至所有的民間企業都必須要做到對不對好那我現在就來談問題出在哪裡我們到現在都在談打詐打詐我們還是發現即使到現在政府各單位動起來了要組一個打詐國家隊結果呢詐騙仍然橫行那橫行的最重要的一個金流的來源是在哪裡"},{"start":11405.658,"end":11430.979,"text":"其中一個環節在第三方支付我們到現在我這個是搜尋的最近的這些媒體有報出來的個案都看到這個詐騙集團的金流一樣是透過第三方支付變成是他的工具那我們現在雖然有說要強化監管那部長就你認為第三方支付現在是我們數位發展部"},{"start":11431.98,"end":11459.834,"text":"要管理的你自己認為來你督導現在你的認知態度那個跟委員報告我們當然第三置戶是一個的確啦是詐騙的一個管道那我們在做已經在做管理包括能量登錄啦從過去有一萬多家的所謂第三方置戶業者現在只有剩下五十幾家那五十幾家的好處就是說我們就可以對他比較強度監管那他們如果要生你的強度監管等一下我就問你來我跟你講"},{"start":11460.774,"end":11478.665,"text":"第三方支付我說淪為詐騙的溫床對不對你剛剛也講是可能是詐騙工具的一個項目而且幾乎是橫行喔那你們說呢對你們有源頭管理現在有需要他登錄但是我在提醒喔你們還是被動的接受登錄"},{"start":11480.126,"end":11503.183,"text":"這個服務量能的登錄制度雖然是因應洗錢防治法我們去年修法還有數位發展部有給予所謂的法尊指引但是你們的量能我覺得不夠為什麼不夠源頭管理阻斷詐騙你們還做不到你們的查核量能效率很慢"},{"start":11504.619,"end":11523.139,"text":"我舉一個例子這個是你們給我的資料我調出來的剛剛部長有講一萬多家可以做第三方支付服務業的有一萬多家那現在登錄的你們給我的資料原來是說54家54家裡面其中有一家"},{"start":11524.867,"end":11552.49,"text":"現在被廢止了那這個被廢止了我要跟你講這個時間差透露出我們數位發展部的這個效率慢量能不夠這個這一家叫做楊盛楊盛呢原來在112年呢8月左右你們就讓他通過登錄你們讓他通過登錄了之後你們到什麼時候才去實地查核你知道嗎隔一年的1月"},{"start":11554.539,"end":11576.534,"text":"從8月到隔一年的1月總共將近5個月你們實地查核才發現他有異樣他搬離了縣子也沒有辦法再來補件也沒有辦法再來說明你們一直到這是你們自己發的這個新聞稿一直到今年的3月才說廢止他的登錄"},{"start":11578.14,"end":11586.991,"text":"那部長從你們給他通過的112年8月到今年的3月才廢止這中間經過幾個月?8月到3月就已經有"},{"start":11594.752,"end":11611.257,"text":"對嘛你都答不出來了半年多啦這半年多七個月的空窗期那請問一下如果他繼續淪為詐騙集團所利用的第三方支付那發生了多少件了騙了多少錢了你知道嗎"},{"start":11613.142,"end":11638.858,"text":"你根本沒有辦法控管阿對,那個委員這個我們要改進阿但是那個細節我是不是請署長、副署長報告你們要改進問題是你們改進到現在是怎麼樣改進法你們的監管的量能到哪裡?監管的強度到哪裡?來是,跟委員報告就是陽勝這個案子是因為他有我們不是要針對個案我要講的是你們的效率對對對我們一年大概會查20幾家"},{"start":11640.461,"end":11640.481,"text":"議員報告"},{"start":11664.312,"end":11684.084,"text":"這個數字落差你自己講出來的現在實際上有在做大概100交120交那有來登錄的是80幾交已經通過申請的大概是50幾交那這三個數字之間你總是要給人民一個交代吧其他沒有來登錄的還可以再繼續進行第三方支付嗎?"},{"start":11686.037,"end":11712.748,"text":"不行啦 不行嘛對不對銀行他去申請銀行不會給來來我現在就跟你講銀行的事情了來部長我希望你身為數位發展部的部長在管理第三方支付你源頭管理是重點但是你的效率不彰你的量能不夠你現在看喔我幫你爬書出來數位發展部在管第三方支付管業者那消費者被詐騙的是"},{"start":11714.449,"end":11715.79,"text":"請問事務發布在什麼時候在哪一個環節可以馬上阻斷"},{"start":11742.062,"end":11746.224,"text":"現在平均可以在第三方支付業者這個虛擬帳號的一個阻斷的效率如何?你平均每通到一個案件你花多少時間去做阻斷的動作?"},{"start":11763.196,"end":11786.103,"text":"你現在這個聯防平台也沒有一下子喔都有時間上的落差喔從警政署、警政單位接收到報案報案再接收到去通報通報之後你們要求第三方支付斷"},{"start":11788.012,"end":11790.953,"text":"你告訴我時間差多少啊?你現在講出來錄影錄影喔!"},{"start":11811.841,"end":11818.631,"text":"欸因為這個都是檢警調查了之後去通知銀行這我們可能要跟他們 你看你現在講的又跟剛剛回答我的不一樣了啊沒有不一樣"},{"start":11822.315,"end":11823.636,"text":"但是我跟你講﹖"},{"start":11845.735,"end":11871.347,"text":"第三方支付轉出去之後到銀行端警政署數萬件的通報案件到銀行端的時候銀行端凍結帳號這中間就有時間差很多都是透過第三方支付給銀行銀行就馬上轉匯出去了這中間就是我們認為說人民要求我們的數位聯防平台是不是能夠更強化能夠更及時"},{"start":11873.666,"end":11901.675,"text":"你數位發展部有沒有權利要求第三方支付一收到這個消費者一次被詐騙的金額的時候他就可以系統阻斷可不可以不可以啦我現在都跟你講啦所以你應該跟金管會跟銀行端我覺得這是要跨部會合作因為你們現在這個聯防平台就是漏了你們這一關啦"},{"start":11902.816,"end":11932.32,"text":"就是少了你們這個把關啊你不能整個都推給銀行啊推給金管會啊因為第三方支付業者現在是數位發展部在管的啊是不是所以我拜託你去好好的去研擬出一套你可以回答我問題真正可以運行的我的要求人民的要求就是第三方支付監管還必須強化你的聯防也必須要強化你的"},{"start":11932.78,"end":11933.721,"text":"下一位請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":11963.263,"end":11983.624,"text":"主席有請速發部、NCC、法務部還有中華電信施施有兩種王逸川有兩個"},{"start":11985.014,"end":12007.864,"text":"一個是天眼局的王逸川非常厲害可以透過手機比對太陽花、小草、民進黨選前之夜跟青鳥活動裡面的年齡跟重複度跟他的移動非常厲害天眼局一流的第二個是膝蓋局局長就是王逸川他說這些所有的東西都是要膝蓋響的"},{"start":12010.999,"end":12037.168,"text":"這兩個天眼局跟膝蓋局的王逸川其中一個在說謊我想請教一下法務部次長我想請教您今天如果說天眼局我們王逸川假設沒有正當法律授權取得未識別化的群眾資料用於政治偵訪跟群眾運動的數據分析請問這樣是不是構成所謂通訊監察保障法以及個人資料保護法的法規的違反"},{"start":12038.925,"end":12057.567,"text":"我們這個疑慮我不要講個案上通案上從法律上來講他如果違反我們這個通保法相關的規定或者各自法規定的話當然會構成相關的刑責所以現在已經在計案辦查偵查了嗎對不對這個案已經在偵查什麼時候開始辦的各位報告他529才分案529分案嗎今天第幾天了"},{"start":12058.496,"end":12076.6,"text":"第5天好如果說今天真的涉及這些所謂的未識別化資訊就違法的疑慮你不講個案講通案那我想問你如果王一川是用膝蓋響的有沒有違法我膝蓋響的啊我膝蓋很厲害啊我膝蓋響的有沒有違法"},{"start":12077.725,"end":12087.515,"text":"各位報告這個其實就個案了你已經講到個人那就是個案那稀罕我想不出為什麼法啦可是你知道我要問的問題是什麼嗎第5天我想請問我們現在檢查機關證據保全的行動在哪裡"},{"start":12091.361,"end":12115.018,"text":"官員報告剛剛有委員提到類似的問題其實個案上講要偵辦他證據的保全我在這邊我也不便問我直接告訴你啦你不便問我曾經也被檢方約談過啦所以約談本身就是一個新聞啦請問有沒有王一川約談了沒官員報告我目前沒有這方面的訊息沒有這方面的訊息我也沒看到啦"},{"start":12116.038,"end":12135.746,"text":"那更不要講說今天王逸川身上是不是有相關的資料進行資料保全必要的一些法律行動有沒有做你也不知道我告訴你啊根本沒做啦至少到目前為止沒看到啦王逸川活蹦亂跳啦我要問一下市長啊我想請教你啊"},{"start":12136.738,"end":12154.873,"text":"王玉川現在從所謂的天眼局改口變成膝蓋局這不是空中串供嗎他現在開始串說法啦改說法後面膝蓋局又膝蓋想的他又迴避他法律責任可是今天我沒有看到檢察機關有任何積極行動"},{"start":12156.974,"end":12177.86,"text":"各位報告檢察官在收證公訴證據當然是重要證據但非公訴證據的收集也是公訴證據跟非公訴證據如果遇到羅志強都辦啦遇到王毅川就會有分別啦我懂啦為什麼因為他今天是民進黨中央政策會執行長他今天是民進黨不分區立委的候補人選"},{"start":12179.963,"end":12181.084,"text":"我現在請教我們中華電信的董事長"},{"start":12193.763,"end":12220.384,"text":"我想請教您喔委員好請問齁我們王毅川他到底要如何用手機去辨別太陽花還有所謂的小草還有民進黨選前之夜跟青鳥活動裡面的人的重疊度跟年齡跟性別如何比對報告委員我們不清楚他怎麼做的欸不清楚欸我們主委你們在報告裡面已經寫了啊是"},{"start":12221.414,"end":12249.785,"text":"一定要取得電信業者基地台服務的用戶號碼以及帳戶客戶的資料庫的資料進行交叉比對嘛 對不對如果要確認一個人的話一定要這樣去處理答對了所以呢是有方法可以做 對不對但是你們不肯做而已嘛 對不對你的說法是這樣嘛 對不對技術上可以法規上可不可以的問題好那我就要問董事長我告訴你啊你可能中華電信要慚愧了啦"},{"start":12251.001,"end":12275.479,"text":"因為我們現在有新科技工具不用這些方法你知道用什麼方法就可以做到嗎不用什麼賬戶客戶資料庫不用基地台服務的用戶號不需要你知道用什麼超級無敵的AI武器就可以做到你知道什麼東西嗎你知道嗎你當然不知道啦我告訴你好不好趕快去找王逸川他的膝蓋做得到啦他的膝蓋做得到啦"},{"start":12277.506,"end":12302.557,"text":"今天我要特別講我還是肯定我們我今天是難得肯定我們陳耀祥主委到目前為止沒有護航王逸川但是你也不願意好好地把資料交出來現在民進黨政府包括國安局、調查局、NCC你們全部都不肯做這種事情嘛你們會做嗎?會不會做主委?你會去政治偵訪、群眾資料、交叉比對今天"},{"start":12303.427,"end":12316.454,"text":"我們依法不可以做我們就不會做阿對了嘛我就是要你這句話嘛顯然就是違法依法就是不能做我也問過法務部阿也是依法不能做阿不是嗎沒錯阿有沒有要改口法務部當然要依法處理阿對啊國安局也切割啦可到現在為止我要跟民進黨喊話全部都切割了啦"},{"start":12330.509,"end":12348.929,"text":"今天王逸川到底是膝蓋局局長還是天眼局局長你明明這樣耐心的出來給個交代吧不管哪一個都是說謊我今天問我們的主委你在這個地方會說謊嗎當然要據實陳述啊對啊 據實陳述啊所以為什麼今天我們的聽證調查今天規範官員要有誠實"},{"start":12353.591,"end":12355.212,"text":"我希望請問民進黨你的執政怎麼說服公眾啊以上"},{"start":12379.195,"end":12384.4,"text":"好,羅志強,謝謝羅志強委員執行。現在請王紅薇委員執行。好,謝謝主席。我請數發部的黃部長,還有我們NCC的陳耀祥主委。"},{"start":12405.002,"end":12425.631,"text":"市長好 各位好 今天王逸川說他在媒體所講的話是他用膝蓋想出來的 然後也有媒體問你 你說你尊重名嘴他們講話的權利 是不是是 那個人都有他的言論自由"},{"start":12426.391,"end":12453.337,"text":"但是這是我們NCC應該主管的範圍啊因為在 沒有錯我在這邊就要用句名檢舉這是王一川自己說的他說了這麼一堆的數據他說他是用膝蓋自己想出來的所以他當然違反我們相關的規定所以我在這邊我已經做好檢舉函了"},{"start":12455.177,"end":12471.896,"text":"直接我檢舉在5月27號三立新聞政論節目新台灣加油裡面王一參當任這個他的評論員然後講了一堆話他說他全部都是用膝蓋想出來的"},{"start":12472.777,"end":12492.559,"text":"所以這個當然會違反相關的規定既然政論節目新聞台可以用膝蓋來想出來講一大堆數據嗎所以我待會就會提供給你我具名檢舉所以我也要求我們NCC主委我們可以立刻去函給三立新聞的新台灣加油要求他說明嗎"},{"start":12493.34,"end":12508.101,"text":"我們現在目前已經依照程序在處理當中因為委員你在檢舉以前已經有6個案那今天林國成委員也有檢舉總共現在我們手上有8個案子沒有錯立刻檢舉什麼叫做他可以隨便講一講就如同之前民視也是民視的這個"},{"start":12511.505,"end":12529.043,"text":"臺灣第一勇全國第一勇的節目也是造謠說我在5月24號在那個臺大兒童醫院接受採訪這也是完全無中生有我們在這段時間我們看到太多的政論節目裡面大家信口開河那我覺得我們NCC該怎麼辦就應該怎麼辦好不好好"},{"start":12534.348,"end":12558.028,"text":"我想請教一下我們那個部長黃部長在你們的這個報告裡面特別提到就是說可以同時拿到基地台的這個用戶號碼以及又同時可以拿到電信事業的客戶資料庫同時取得可能性極低這是你們的報告可能性極低那我想請問部長"},{"start":12559.269,"end":12581.292,"text":"如果同時取得的可能性有多少呢?雖然極低還是代表完全不能排除啊,是不是?技術上可行,但是行政流程,第一個它是被保護的,那你需要有法規我請問你,那麼王逸川或者是民進黨的政策會拿到這個資料的可能性你認為有多少?"},{"start":12581.732,"end":12587.714,"text":"主委您也講說現在這些相關的資訊包含這個電信信令的大數據提供對象主要為政府機關所以主要為政府機關代表還有其他的私人企業或者團體機關"},{"start":12611.344,"end":12615.13,"text":"電信業者在這大數據分析包括人流的部分包括不包括政黨政黨目前來講的話你不是都找他們來問過了嗎對對對他們沒有提供給政黨"},{"start":12626.266,"end":12650.215,"text":"5月30日他們的回答是說他們沒有提供給政府機關、政黨或是特定個人那我想請問一下現在的王逸川因為被各單位都切割那他現在的問題是他現在看起來也要切割自己王逸川自己也要切割自己把自己的頭腦切割掉然後就說是他的膝蓋所以主委我請問一下"},{"start":12651.135,"end":12677.246,"text":"王毅川到底是監控王還是唬爛王?你認為兩者哪一個是?這可能要具體跟調查完以後才有辦法判斷因為按照你們的調查你已經做行政調查看起來你都說沒有啊三大電信公司都沒有提供給他啊那他總不會是怎麼樣是空中把他直接把他抓下來吧 對不對所以他到底是監控王還是唬爛王?"},{"start":12678.703,"end":12688.223,"text":"基本上來講我們從三大電信業所調查的資料來講目前並沒有資料比如說給這個王一川先生所以你看起來覺得他比較像後者是胡亂王嗎?"},{"start":12689.727,"end":12711.138,"text":"是不是這種情況來講我們後面查因為我們還要進行一個調查跟電信業者一起查那你待多久可以告訴我們大家他到底是監控王還是火爛王我們會請那個業者還有請當事人來講就這個兩個禮拜內可不可以我們已經我們一直流程上來講不好意思我請我們的內務處處長跟委員報告一下可以趕快告訴我們一下時間齁因為我不要耽誤"},{"start":12712.458,"end":12712.618,"text":"幾個月嗎?幾個月?"},{"start":12729.917,"end":12730.258,"text":"謝謝王洪"},{"start":12753.834,"end":12770.128,"text":"好,謝謝王煌威委員。現在我們請陳雪生委員召委發言好,謝謝主席。是不是請NCC陳主委、法務部黃次長、中華電信郭董"},{"start":12781.138,"end":12802.158,"text":"各位早本期今天這個會議把它定為國家機器有它的道理副院長說這個定中了一點因為這個王毅川執行長是民進黨很重要的一個幹部那麼跟整個選舉的國家機器扯在一起所以我定為國家機器"},{"start":12803.908,"end":12821.196,"text":"其實這一個我想請問一下我們法務部黃市長檢察官已經主動分案辦調查嘛那他這個社會那麼重視的一個案子一個大張旗鼓啊是不是一個兵分三路兵分四路嘛"},{"start":12822.571,"end":12845.225,"text":"請問三大業者有沒有做這樣的一個行為?各位報告,那這涉及到我們偵查不公開做最重要的原則了我知道啊,你們常常都在公開講的是偵查不公開,電視裡面你看看哪一樣不公開是不是?每一樣都公開啊偵查不公開是檢察官最基本的要求啦最基本的,最不基本的要求,哪一件不公開你講"},{"start":12846.345,"end":12863.385,"text":"每一件媒體有不公開的案子嗎?你舉例說明每一件都公開,公開的乾乾淨淨那我是覺得他應該兵分三路、兵分八路應該去包抄嘛那王玉川執行長你們傳訊過他嗎?我看電視報導也沒有"},{"start":12866.378,"end":12894.077,"text":"這麼重要一個人傳訊的話電視一定很大的字幕啊是不是各新聞媒體都頭板頭都出來了沒有啊沒看到啊各位報告他目前進行的什麼樣的偵查作為老實講我不清楚那除非該地檢署他主動發布新聞稿要不然外界那當然以你執掌的範圍你可以這麼講我想我對地檢署啊查到現在沒有任何的訊息很像真的是偵查不公開我看也不了了之啦這一件事情啊"},{"start":12895.902,"end":12899.524,"text":"目前國際分公司的副總陳建志是從哪裡調來的?副總欸,國際分公司副總"},{"start":12924.804,"end":12950.366,"text":"他是從我們立法院過去的助理政治任命的企通處擔任協理到現在是國際分公司的副總經理也是廣域的公務員你知道我們立法院柯總召的助理還有很多的助理跑到你們中華電信去都是高官任用你們知道嗎?董事長你知道嗎?甚至包含你本人都有可能是這樣"},{"start":12952.475,"end":12960.209,"text":"我是覺得這非常可怕因為政黨屬性不同就會做其他各種的服務那大數據有買賣嗎?"},{"start":12965.22,"end":12987.094,"text":"報告委員那個大數據人潮分析的部分在去識別化之後依照個人資料保護法、電信管理法等相關法令在這個遵循之下那這個合法的去進行這個數據的分析他分公司的副總退休了嗎?"},{"start":12988.325,"end":12994.344,"text":"在職你認了沒有在職因為我在4年以前不只4年以前總統選舉齁"},{"start":12996.175,"end":13017.372,"text":"我看過這樣的一個大數據的東西,也是從電信業者,也是找我們立委說你要不要分析你的票有多少?上布在台灣整個島,點點點,綠的點藍的點,分布的很密我看過這個東西,有人來跟我推銷,因為我的選區不需要這個東西"},{"start":13018.493,"end":13043.474,"text":"我的選區的選票都在我的腦袋裡面藍的在哪裡綠的在哪裡不是我的票在哪裡我通通都知道我自己知道我不是你們的大數據我的腦袋是我的大數據所以我是說你大數據這個東西可以買賣是不是可以買賣在我們法規的這個允許下所進行的商業的服務最可怕的是什麼呢"},{"start":13048.632,"end":13074.241,"text":"我是執政長的某一個人,我要個資料,你能夠不給嗎?一定給嘛,是不是?郭董我跟你熟的話,你什麼資料偷偷給我一下,我怎麼講是國家機器,今天講到王一川執行長,柯建民總召我也相信也是國家機器,是不是?他向你們要東西有什麼困難嗎?沒有困難的勒,既然都可以買賣了,我們也可以不買賣嘛,是不是這樣?"},{"start":13075.994,"end":13096.44,"text":"委員不會跟我索取這些不合法的我們不能依法不能提供的錢我向你索取都是合法的你能夠給我的東西也是合法的啊你會講不合法嗎那不可能嘛所以我剛才才在講啊打死你也不會招供啦是不是那還有就是這個事情發生以後你有去向你的下屬單位"},{"start":13097.967,"end":13124.509,"text":"去調查到底有沒有發生這個事嗎?有沒有?報告委員我有調查調查的資料在哪裡?我們這個請同仁調查結果調查結果怎麼樣?這個大數據的人潮分析的平台在5月17日到24日之間沒有任何的異常的使用跟存取他一定講報告董事長我們底下都是依法行政絕對不會有這種狗屁倒倒的事情是不是這樣報告?"},{"start":13126.272,"end":13147,"text":"報告委員我是請我們個人資料保護的這個單位去調查大數據單位陳主委底下一定跟你一樣嘛我們都依法行政當然本來就要落實依法行政是不是這樣報告所以我講雲淡風輕嘛沒事啊委員我們真的還是要經過調查才有辦法去下決論嘛"},{"start":13148.973,"end":13177.522,"text":"我是覺得齁你把這個大數據這樣子你可以講買賣有買賣也可以不買賣啊是不是買賣有公開的有私底下的有公的有私的什麼方式都有啊我確認王玉川執行長他不是詐騙集團喔我確認他不是詐騙集團他是真的我告訴你他的數據是有本的他的數據一定有來源的這個來源我高度的懷疑"},{"start":13178.191,"end":13204.671,"text":"就是由你們中華電信的大數據出去的我懷疑是這樣我懷疑啦,我不敢肯定啦因為我今天懷疑,我如果有資料的話我早就拿出來了但查到現在很像根本都沒有查出什麼東西黃一川執行長也老陳在在你問我,我是用膝蓋想的就跟我剛才講很像我用大腦想的這個道理是一樣的所以這怎麼查?"},{"start":13207.014,"end":13221.586,"text":"報告委員再次強調我們5月17日到24日之間我們大數據的人潮分析的平台資料庫裡面沒有任何異常的一個存取跟使用所以剛才我們這個蔡經營副院長講說我們執政黨講的是人權"},{"start":13226.107,"end":13255.073,"text":"嘴巴是講人權肚子裡面是講人權嗎不是這麼回事啊你們現在去打開NCC你把那個電視打開藍的電視台就是藍的電視台藍的電視台不會去講綠的一句好話綠的所有電視台絕對不會去讚美藍的政治人物一句好話一句都沒有不要講半句啦一句都沒有就是壞這個台灣的人民那麼的善良"},{"start":13256.48,"end":13277.822,"text":"這個台灣你們要,我最近想移民,我從來沒有這個想法在這裡晚上可以吃米粉湯,找瓜井,多愉快啊,穿個拖鞋出去,治安也很好為什麼想移民?不怕死的年輕人一堆啊,跟老公要打仗,是不是?那個電視每天報導的,你們沒有責任嗎?211沒有責任嗎?"},{"start":13281.299,"end":13305.931,"text":"這電視台叫關門嘛關這幾家嘛不准再講什麼藍的壞話也不准講綠的壞話電視節目水準稍微高一點好不好好我們盡力來提升啦不是盡力啊你去那邊就要走人啊怎麼盡力這個本來NCC就是一個制度嘛鐵塔的衙門流水的關嘛關上後要去但是我們還是會去處理NCC的官員這邊也很多在這邊齁我拜託大家我們共同努力啊真的"},{"start":13306.591,"end":13327.56,"text":"台灣不是這個樣子啊台灣沒有那麼善良的啊台灣真的已經很邪惡很罪惡感了立法院在開會讓立法院出去害怕能不能走出這個立法院這什麼話嘛你說說看這是個民主國家嗎你到大陸去看看你到大陸去看看有這樣的事嗎"},{"start":13328.527,"end":13328.827,"text":"現在請習曉清委員發言"},{"start":13367.176,"end":13368.156,"text":"陳主委,請問一下您的膝蓋還好嗎?"},{"start":13389.128,"end":13413.315,"text":"那你可以透過你的膝蓋算得出大數據、人流比例以及賴清德總統的造勢晚會跟519跟527三場活動的小草跟青鳥的分析嗎?這應該是要用客觀的數據去處理膝蓋算得出來嗎?膝蓋應該是算不出來那等於說王逸川最近在唬爛嘛在電視台上面唬爛NCC有沒有相關的一些罰則?"},{"start":13414.495,"end":13439.142,"text":"我們如果說有違反事實查證那當然會有罰則好,所以我們看一下PowerPoint好不好這個呢他當時一開始說他從分析的資料來看而且他講到幾個關鍵字他有講到呢基地台、訊號、資料、分析、比對而且他是比對三場不同的活動就如同我剛剛所說的那樣子我想請問陳主委他這樣的說法有可能性存在對吧"},{"start":13439.642,"end":13454.341,"text":"因為包含是我問過國安局長包含是這個當時疫情期間的建制系統還有包含是幾位書發部都說這樣子是有可行性只是很難取得請問主委是這樣嗎"},{"start":13455.302,"end":13459.244,"text":"2020年的時候因為疫情NCC跟電信三雄一起建立了一個系統那那個系統照來說只能保存資料28天而且我問過你們現在也已經沒有再使用了"},{"start":13474.833,"end":13496.51,"text":"那我要怎麼樣排除說已經建制的系統他沒有被拿去其他的地方重新的去做濫用我們當時在疫情時有三個第一個就是疫調輔助系統第二個是電子維理第三個是簡訊系統這我都知道我想要問的是濫用的部分要怎麼樣去這個資料我們全部刪除所以未來如果需要整個重建才行是嗎"},{"start":13497.33,"end":13526,"text":"還是系統仍然存在只是我們現在停止傳輸如果未來來講的話如果有大型的那個可能要重建可能要重建你要跟我講確定的不是可能就是這個系統是否還在因為舉例來說像當時數位身分證已經取消這個政策的時候它的整個系統是保留之外它還持續必須運作但是計劃已經停止了我想要詢問這個系統是已經完全銷毀還是我們現在已經不再使用這是兩件事資料銷毀了"},{"start":13528.561,"end":13532.223,"text":"系統停止還是銷毀?系統怎麼樣?系統我們已經下架下架是指說銷毀還是暫時就是下架?"},{"start":13548.331,"end":13576.269,"text":"下架是什麼意思?可以給我們一個清楚的定義什麼叫下架?就我們已經沒有在我們的公司沒有在傳輸還什麼是下架啦你講清楚一點下架定義是什麼?你這麼說法就跟那個王一川那個膝蓋沒什麼兩樣下架是什麼意思?我們系統已經下線公司已經沒有這個系統公司沒有這個系統所以如果今天又有疫情來的話要全數重建重建好那我再問一下我們看下一張投影片"},{"start":13577.56,"end":13605.511,"text":"我想要請問一下NCC主委還有貓眼中華電信請問在521當天你們有沒有協助在這個公民運動裡面幫忙他們去吊雞地台報告委員那天因為陳情的民眾比較多我們有接到包括這個委員還有這個什麼委員立法委員立法委員對民進黨的立法委員"},{"start":13607.023,"end":13627.931,"text":"是的是的然後要求你們協助增加基地台還有包括一些我們得到的一些外部單位外部單位是誰我是說我們在現得到一些希望說我們能夠加強訊號誰希望剛剛有講民進黨的立委嗎還有誰希望你們加強訊號"},{"start":13632.042,"end":13658.928,"text":"這個主辦單位那邊主辦單位可以要求中華電信加強訊號我們就要去配合加強訊號那個所有大型活動包括燈會或是像這種集會因為他的人多所以他的電話訊號都會比較用塞所以電信業者也不是只有中華電信不是只有中華電信我知道啊上面有寫嘛那所以說誰可以去要求誰可以去提出要求用戶都可以去提出要求需不需要申請"},{"start":13661.95,"end":13688.007,"text":"有沒有申請單沒有那我今天如果辦一個集會遊行那我需不需要向你填申請單我作為一個普通民眾不是立法委員的話不需要我們通常對於人潮聚集自己自發性的會去人潮聚集比較多的地方我們會為了服務民眾方便的話服務民眾方便所以不需要所以你只要就是隨機看電視看到說那裡在辦集會遊行人很多你們就會自己跑過去幫他增加訊號"},{"start":13689.208,"end":13718.037,"text":"如果因為這個是客戶用戶的問題我們會要求他的提比如說他提供這個所謂行動通訊要有一定的品質什麼一定的品質我的問題不是這個嘛我問題是你是否看電視只要看到有一個地方集會遊行人很多你們自己就會跑過去開基地台幫他增加訊號嗎其實不需要申請嗎剛委員報告像這個媽祖遶境白沙屯媽祖遶境還有燈會的活動他們有沒有申請他們有沒有提前跟你們溝通"},{"start":13718.917,"end":13720.699,"text":"我們確實有這個增加這個基地台的部件讓整個這個好我們再看上一張"},{"start":13745.177,"end":13774.073,"text":"所以大家才會懷疑嘛所以大家才會懷疑說這跟基地台有沒有關係嘛前面那個是5月2...我知道這是兩件事前面那是5月24號就有人講的現在他講這個在電視上講不是膝蓋喔是5月27號講的所以大家才會懷疑說是不是有被濫用是不是有國家監控的問題嘛最後我只問一下這個法務部好我...等一下等一下不好意思主席再給我30秒好不好我問一下那個NCC齁"},{"start":13774.873,"end":13791.672,"text":"就是說你們剛剛講說業者跟網紅會委員在問答的時候說業者沒有電信業者沒有販售資料給這個所謂的政治人物或政黨是不是就是說這個事情裡面不是這個事情我是說電信業者有沒有販售資料給政治人物"},{"start":13792.293,"end":13804.163,"text":"一般來講的話你剛剛說沒有沒有沒有我說我們5月30號那時候查他們說沒有放給發賣給政黨或特定個人不是是說所有的喔就是不是針對這個21號的行動來中華電信講因為不一定是中華電信嘛所以我不想請中華電信回來因為說不定他沒有啊來我直接唸給你聽好不好"},{"start":13813.51,"end":13834.042,"text":"我在選舉的時候就有收到某一家的資料庫他可以篩選選區戶集地發簡訊價錢多少我就不說了而且我跟國安局質詢的時候他們有回復我說電信業者確實有做package去賣給包含是政黨或個人但這樣子的情況請問主委是可以的嗎"},{"start":13835.123,"end":13835.403,"text":"好,以上謝謝"},{"start":13864.704,"end":13881.966,"text":"好謝謝齊小新委員接下來我們邱若驊委員執行謝謝主席主席請中華電信郭董事長好中華電信郭董事長"},{"start":13889.42,"end":13889.74,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13908.9,"end":13923.533,"text":"中華電信是關股背景那近年也投入大數據的分析過去有協助建制防疫監控平台請說明清楚當面對中央政府或是政黨有需求的時候能不能抗拒拒絕提供資料作為政治目的使用"},{"start":13925.459,"end":13945.481,"text":"報告委員,我們有關防疫的平台是在疾管局以及NCC依照相關法令規範的遵守下委託中華電信來建置跟維護的防疫平台那基本上這些都是合乎法令相關規定來辦理"},{"start":13947.023,"end":13960.002,"text":"至於您剛才所提的人潮分析這個部分我們是我們沒有提到人潮分析那直接回答能不能抗拒提供資料作為政治目的使用我們不會提供政治目的使用的這個相關的服務"},{"start":13960.902,"end":13982.211,"text":"那王一川先生在節目上面提到手機定位還有分析那這資料從何而來有沒有涉及不法我毫無所惜這資料不是我們提供的不是提供那董事長也一直說到絕對不會外流不是外流外流是被動式的還是這是主動式的提供我們沒有主動提供也沒有被動的提供"},{"start":13982.85,"end":14008.736,"text":"也沒有被動的提供那據了解手機IP來判定足跡重複就代表未去識別化那NCC是在講外行話因為國人的質疑是王逸川先生用這個資料我們都在想這資料到底是從何而來那依照電信業者的看法只有可能是急於國安危安用途還有陳抗情資收集那可見這份資料遭到不法使用那也可能會引發國安問題董事長您怎麼看"},{"start":14010.918,"end":14035.814,"text":"我中華電信所提供的人潮分析都是依照個人資料保護法電信管理法相關規定來在合法前提下所提供的商業性的分析應用目的是促進地方經濟還有觀光需求還有交通疏解等等這些有利於地方政府"},{"start":14036.394,"end":14039.476,"text":"我們完全遵照法定規定來辦理個人資料保護還有這個相關的措施"},{"start":14057.096,"end":14077.984,"text":"那可不可以解釋為什麼對應到的手機號碼號碼有沒有重疊這些都可以?剛委員報告中華電信的人潮分析相關的應用平台沒有違反任何相關法令我們沒有在這上面設定任何功能我們沒有設定這樣的一個交叉比對的功能"},{"start":14082.198,"end":14105.334,"text":"主委好那這邊5月30有請到三大的行動業者到進行了解嘛那行動業者都表示不曾參與輕量行動的群眾進行相關的資訊了解那請問NCC判定業者有沒有提供資料的依據為何那當然是要第一個要他們我們這個是做成正式的行政調查第二個我們請他有相關的資料來事後補充啊這個才是做判斷"},{"start":14106.65,"end":14133.548,"text":"因為三大通訊業者都說沒有提供那對於王一船先生在節目上的透露主意您怎麼看這個坦白說我很好奇他的資料是怎麼來的這個時候我也是看電視才知道說怎麼會有出現這種狀況所以我們當時一發生的時候馬上要求業者到會去接受調查去處理因為王一船先生現在是說用膝蓋想的也太也未免太太汙辱國人的智慧了"},{"start":14134.229,"end":14155.918,"text":"那這樣子的話那個資保護是否不足發生爭議那這一次因為自爆監控群眾事件才公開那NCC處理個資保護的問題能不能公開透明我們個資保護本來就有公開透明而且我們是依照法定程序去處理就剛剛跟委員報告講包括我們電信管理法第17條還有我們個資法的相關規定我們要求業者來講的話必須訂定這個個資保護"},{"start":14158.399,"end":14180.674,"text":"的那個維護計畫而且這個有經過國際那個認證並且我們是定期去稽查而且他們也必須落實內控機制比如說萬一他的個資如果外洩的話我們就依予裁罰所以我們的電信業者的確也曾經出現過有個資外洩這個議題後來被我們裁罰的情況是出現的那我這邊先這邊請那個我們的事務發布黃部長"},{"start":14188.439,"end":14212.612,"text":"蘇發部成立後行政院資通安全處有將他的業務移撥至蘇發部部長您上任之後有沒有確認接手的電子圍籬作業系統有銷毀我們目前沒有看到這個系統完全沒有完全沒有看到這個系統應該已經銷毀你們完全沒有看到應該已經銷毀就是說我上任以後沒有人跟我做這個報告那可以再提供相關的書面報告嗎可以我們再提供那個再確認一下可以沒問題"},{"start":14213.012,"end":14213.332,"text":"現在請吳宗憲委員執行"},{"start":14250.949,"end":14274.79,"text":"我們現在想麻煩陳耀祥主委還有鄭齊君副主任以及郭董事長郭董事長、鄭副處長三位午安我現在先請教一下"},{"start":14277.754,"end":14293.481,"text":"陳主委就有關NCC的主秘黃文哲他之前有說他說所定到他的基地台使用的人他究竟是男是女假設只是這樣的話那這樣沒辦法辨識個人那就不在各自法的範圍內你這句話你認同嗎?"},{"start":14294.912,"end":14295.953,"text":"你的前提就是去識別化之後嗎?"},{"start":14314.087,"end":14315.248,"text":"請問你手機定位他到底是不是個資法保護範圍內?"},{"start":14343.806,"end":14371.552,"text":"如果是手機的號碼來講當然是如果是信令來講相關訊息來講的話應該也是如果可以直接或間接認定到識別到個人身份的話他就會變成個資了好那我現在跟你講一下就是我上次在執行法務部長的時候我有提到其實國發會的函式包括那個行政院資通安全處處長他曾經寫過的報告以及當天法務部長、政部長他所說的其實他們都認為手機定位他應該是屬於個資法保護的範圍內"},{"start":14373.592,"end":14393.932,"text":"因為我再提一個在103年的時候曾經有海巡署的官員他去裝GPS後來在卡車上面裝GPS結果後來被法院判決拘獄59天我想主委一定知道這個案子所以即便裝GPS知道你這個車子到哪裡都被認定是有妨害秘密了"},{"start":14394.292,"end":14416.861,"text":"更何況今天我們涉及手機的定位因為手機的定位他甚至綁的是個人那像車子的話可能是誰開的我們也不知道那另外我要再提一個點在司法上面的調查的合法的監控不會對人群只會對個人或特定的某些犯罪的人那在國安局他這次也說了他並沒有把一些資料流出來"},{"start":14417.461,"end":14430.16,"text":"那剛剛主委你也有說過啦你說你不知道王逸川的這個這個資料到底是哪裡來你剛跟那個邱委員有這樣講嘛對不對那所以如果這樣子推論下來的話那我想請教一下"},{"start":14431.318,"end":14460.217,"text":"國董事長那這樣子是不是中華電信應該要大義滅親去對王一川提告啊因為你看喔沒有任何人可以拿到這些資料從司法體系來說司法體系不會拿到人群的資料他只會拿到個案的資料雖然非常的詳細這我很清楚第二個國安局也說他不會把資料給給這個特定人或特定政黨使用所以今天他莫名其妙的拿到這些資料的話是不是應該"},{"start":14461.919,"end":14463,"text":"我們不清楚王先生的資料來源是如何"},{"start":14483.897,"end":14511.567,"text":"中華電信已經在上禮拜有發出新聞稿也在這邊鄭重跟委員報告中華電信跟王先生沒有任何接觸也沒有任何業務洽談那我們也沒有提供任何資料給他我知道我知道我相信你說的我姑且相信你說的但是是不是說如果他今天有用不祥的方式去取得貴公司的資料那貴公司其實該提告就要提告我想這個應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":14514.366,"end":14538.836,"text":"我們沒有任何相關的事證說他是使用中華電信的資料我是說如果之後經過檢察官因為檢察官現在已經分他資料在調查如果今天檢察官查出來這確實跟貴公司資料有關的話我想貴公司會不會提出告提到中華電信嚴守個人資料保護法跟電信管理法我們沒有提供任何資料給他"},{"start":14539.773,"end":14557.182,"text":"好不好 那有答跟沒有答一樣啦 不然我跟你講 你要是不懂得立法院怎麼運作 你去問一下你們那個法律事務處的副總經理啦 魏惠珍他以前是柯總召的助理嘛 他應該很了解立法院的運作啦 那我們希望你還是能夠表示啦 不然你不懂就去問他好了 好不好"},{"start":14560.759,"end":14583.352,"text":"那既然你這麼講的話那再來我請教我跟那個個資保護委員會的那個正副處長我將請問一下這些手機流量定位服務這些個資的再利用是用什麼合法的方式釋出你們有什麼合法的方式可以把這些資料給外面的人"},{"start":14584.048,"end":14585.269,"text":"電信管理法的法規是有多規範?"},{"start":14611.588,"end":14637.66,"text":"這個部分可能要麻煩你們要適宜或是還有補充一些資料給我們一下那我想請教你就是那你有沒有主動告訴這些民眾申請這些手機門號這些民眾你的資料可能會被這樣的運用拿去販賣我們不要說流出去啦你會不會拿去做正常的販賣商業的使用你有沒有在他們來申辦門號的時候有跟他們講這個風險"},{"start":14639.615,"end":14661.822,"text":"瓜哥委員這可能就要再問一下電信的主管機關各位委員報告我們這個行動寬頻服務企業裡面來講的話對於這個在跟當事人比如說他要申請使用這個電信服務的時候包括他的處理利用還有這些相關的條件在定型化企業裡面都會告知那你定型化企業有時候叫我們勾選一些東西嗎對不對通常我的我都是勾不要請那個"},{"start":14663.922,"end":14685.668,"text":"報告委員如果您勾選不要的話就不會納入剛才所講類似人草分析的這個條文這問題非常好但我跟各位報告一下今天我運氣好因為我念法律的我還有耐心去細看每個法律的條文契約的條文但是民眾呢你一個定義化契約丟在那邊厚厚一本你就叫他簽名"},{"start":14686.548,"end":14698.779,"text":"我個人認為這對民眾的保障其實是不足更何況你把他們的資料拿去販賣那這樣子他根本搞不清楚啊你的說明有沒有說明清楚"},{"start":14699.741,"end":14725.648,"text":"他到電信公司去或是那個通訊行去辦了一個門號就這個定型化企業一本丟給他請他簽名都拿幾個位置叫他簽名實務上都是這樣啦問題是你能期待他們能夠把定型化企業搞清楚嗎所以我不認為說我講一個這定型化企業我已經跟人民講過了那就算數就沒我的事我不認同這樣啦好那最後我跟各位講一個"},{"start":14726.946,"end":14754.24,"text":"如果你們真的對於個資這麼喜歡研究其實你們去看一下那個111年憲判制13號他在討論健保資料的時候他其實有討論到很多東西啦所以呢你們去先釐清一下那個法官他們對於健保資料他是怎麼認定的他是怎麼樣要求要去識別化要完全切斷資料內容跟特定主題之間的關聯線索這個這個"},{"start":14756.161,"end":14772.61,"text":"你就麻煩你們了解一下另外在憲判制13號他有提到如果這些資料被濫用比如說這王逸川的事件我想提到我的救濟管道在哪裡麻煩你們去研議一下參考一下健保資料被濫用的話"},{"start":14773.57,"end":14797.477,"text":"被侵害的人是怎麼救濟你們是不是應該要去思考一個救濟的管道來告訴人民尤其是這一次假設最後檢察官調查受害人是200萬民眾呢那我們是不是要來搞一個團體疏通來告中華電信告國家所以這部分麻煩你們釐清一下我們覺得事情發生就發生了但是我很需要的是一個救濟的方式你把救濟方式告訴我那我們來告訴"},{"start":14798.683,"end":14814.757,"text":"民眾你們都有這個權利如果你今天對於我的電信公司或者是對於國家的管理有意見的話我甚至有可能要求國賠好不好再麻煩你們能夠研議一下很快補充報告個人資料跟數據應用分析是兩件事"},{"start":14815.257,"end":14831.164,"text":"個人資料一定要根據國家的法令所以絕對不會外流數據應用分析是要去識別化之後而且是得到輪廓分析絕對沒有個人化資料但即使是這樣個人可以選擇不提供"},{"start":14832.284,"end":14851.537,"text":"加入人潮分析相關的一個數據應用我們請郭董事長會後再向我們吳宗憲委員你要照做啊你不能這樣子搞啦另外我補充一個這個世界沒有絕對你說絕對不會流出去我跟你講沒那種事情我辦過多少案子駭客進去就把東西偷出來"},{"start":14852.888,"end":14853.869,"text":"請陳耀祥主委、中華電信股董事長"},{"start":14890.53,"end":14917.592,"text":"主委、國董事長其實到現在那麼多的委員關心以及人民炸鍋最主要就是兩個部分第一這件事情透過一個民進黨的現在執政黨的政策會執行長在節目上講出來我覺得這是非常令人這個毛骨悚然我們來看一下他當時怎麼講他說資料分析有些人是小草有些是太陽花太陽花什麼時候"},{"start":14918.913,"end":14946.006,"text":"10年前換言之他掌握的資料是現在跟10年前的資料對比再來說用手機看他的年齡他有辦法用手機看到年齡還有這些人跟原來的小草比對過517民進黨樓下跟小草訊號比起來是不同人這一批人跟上一次選舉1月13號選前之夜對比也沒關係所以他掌握的是有"},{"start":14947.325,"end":14962.158,"text":"這個小草有517有1月13號的選前之夜的對比然後主持人問說你去對這個記憶體來訊號啊你就可以知道啊所以王逸川王先生講的是透過手機訊號能分析啊"},{"start":14963.1,"end":14985.425,"text":"好我知道到目前為止不管是主委也講說5月30號馬上找三大電信公司來講也都說沒有沒有外流中華電信國董事長更是從一開始到現在都講說個人資料都有保護嘛那我們想知道到底這一些電信公司的資料除了在中華電信手上以外除了在電信公司手上以外還有哪一些公司有可能取得"},{"start":14987.253,"end":15008.6,"text":"那個委員這可能第一個如果是個人資料來講的話就是電信公司就是三家三大電信業者嘛那如果是已經被去識別化以後的這個數據看起來他是沒有去識別化如果有去識別化數據的話說電信業者來講的話最大數據分析的公司包括所謂的資訊公司市場調查都有可能有這些數據但是目前看起來他一開始講的原文嘛對我們"},{"start":15009.58,"end":15033.794,"text":"手中都是他一開始最一開始所講的嘛他所講的是沒有去識別化我們也很好奇說他這個說法來講他資料到底是怎麼去取得好那到目前為止今天NCC的資料在第三頁的時候就講是說三大電信業者都說沒有任何私人企業政府機關特定黨政人士跟政府跟公司來洽購相關的資料公司也都沒有提供相關的資訊"},{"start":15035.447,"end":15051.845,"text":"所以公司沒有主動提供然後也沒有被動提供那到底他的資料從哪裡來?還有可能從哪裡來?這個可能要問王一川先生才了解所以說這個案子為什麼說那個檢調單位在調查就是這樣因為很多的資料你如果想去調查來講的話那可能要犯罪身上才有辦法去處理"},{"start":15052.626,"end":15079.973,"text":"是來郭董事長你們這樣子的一個沒有去識別化的資料有可能被其他公司掌握嗎中華電信提供的人潮分析等這個數據應用分析的資料都是經過去識別化合乎法令規定來辦理的那你們現在跟如果說跟一般的這個民調公司現在有跟幾家民調公司合作是可以提供去識別化的資料外部的很多的公司的反而是我們的競爭業者"},{"start":15082.827,"end":15103.38,"text":"我們會針對這個個案然後針對例如剛才所講的商業的這個振興觀光或者是這個交通疏解等等這些目的然後協助有部分的縣市政府來提供這些相關的資料這個沒有問題你要聽懂本席的問題"},{"start":15104.801,"end":15129.239,"text":"我在NCC的第5月的報告裡面有看到嘛就是說這個也是一開始我們質疑這一個執政黨的政策會執政黨的時候執政黨的說法執政黨說沒有啊這個外面公司都有賣啊你看有什麼台中市政府辦的活動有新北市政府辦的活動都有這個資料啊那本席現在想要問的是他各資料就是完全不同啊那還有"},{"start":15130.12,"end":15157.996,"text":"更重要的是你們現在信誓旦旦都講是說三大行動業者都沒有提供當天親鳥行動的資料嘛對我們確實沒有對確實沒有好本席姑且相信三大行動業者到目前為止NCC的調查都沒有提供親鳥行動的資料主動或被動提供嘛對不對那他又怎麼能夠來跟這個其他的這個各縣市的這樣的資料來去做比對是相同"},{"start":15159.52,"end":15174.58,"text":"報告委員我們不清楚他的這個資料但我們剛才報告就是中華電信這個遵守個人資料保護法電信管理法的相關規範所以個人資料絕對沒有外流一定是留在公司是嗎?譬如說數據分析的輪廓分析"},{"start":15177.043,"end":15199.477,"text":"NCC主委你第5月的簡報是不是講是說三大電信業者有配合內政部有配合新北市政府觀光局有配合金門縣政府有辦相關活動那是數據是數據嘛對不對但到目前為止我剛剛請教的是說你三大電信業者沒有提供青鳥行動給任何人那這樣子他怎麼有辦法說在節目上27號講的這樣鉅細謎理"},{"start":15202.741,"end":15211.016,"text":"換言之到目前為止就我們的理解跟你今天的簡報來講的話是青鳥行動到底有沒有任何數據去給任何民間的公司去做分析"},{"start":15213.769,"end":15236.286,"text":"報告委員我們沒有提這個再次強調這個我們在我有下去請同仁查5月17號到24號之間我們的大數據的這個人潮分析平台沒有異常的存取跟這個使用本席的問題在哪裡你知道就是說是不是自始至終這個王先生他節目上就都是唬爛啊因為"},{"start":15239.591,"end":15266.586,"text":"你現在NCC給我們的數據第三頁的簡報是現在三大電信業者都沒有主動或被動提供輕鳥行動的資訊對不對那你又看到第五頁是說如果說真的有提供資訊要有這樣子的一個數據分析一定要有政府或是相關機關來去申請你才有辦法取得這種去識別化的分析嗎他們有一些契約啦有一些上來使用也要有契約"},{"start":15267.887,"end":15284.556,"text":"那我現在講的是說如果說到目前為止三大電信業者講的是說在這次清了行動沒有主動或被動提供相關資料的話那27號他有辦法在節目裡面講的那居信迷你他已經不是識別化或去識別化的問題了是不是自始至終他根本都是在唬爛"},{"start":15286.858,"end":15308.494,"text":"這恐怕你要請教王逸川先生這不是我請教王逸川先生的NCC是主管機關他是在節目裡面講的三立新聞台是不是自始至終播出一個唬爛的節目委員已經有好幾個檢舉說我們現在是否有違反事實調查去處理是來主委你在咳嗽啊來主委我請教如果說真的自始至終在唬爛的話這個衛廣法可以開罰多少錢"},{"start":15312.757,"end":15329.223,"text":"那個是事實查證的問題是事實查證的問題因為到目前你講就是說他事實中可能都是在都是不實的嘛我不知道他怎麼天馬行空但他講的好像是煞有其事但實際上他是新聞台那事實查證如果說這個新聞台他播出這種完全沒有事實根據的"},{"start":15330.003,"end":15345.957,"text":"他還可以講的太陽花、小草、五一七、民進黨樓下、交叉分析、基地台分析難怪人家講說名嘴可以從外太空講到內子宮如果違反事實查證的話從20萬到200萬是可以查出的"},{"start":15348.9,"end":15376.94,"text":"最高可以從20萬罰到200萬最低20萬什麼時候可以調查出來因為我剛剛聽到委員有講好像是3個月到6個月會不會太久沒有 我們一般說案件程序都是這樣處理好 那什麼時候會請三立新聞台來說明我們這個禮拜會先請他們意見陳述這個禮拜會先請三立新聞台意見陳述什麼時候他們必須要回覆原則上因為他要提輪委會所以以我們的慣例就是14天內他要提輪委會"},{"start":15378.066,"end":15385.275,"text":"提什麼會 提他們的倫理委員會 倫委會所以14天內他們要提他們的倫委會所以現在看起來"},{"start":15387.125,"end":15412.808,"text":"我們之前是14到21啦那因為這個案子都很關切社會矚目盡量趕快提對其實本席對於任何人都沒有意見但本席對於如果說今天是執政黨的一個高級黨工能夠在節目上講這樣的事情當然大家會心裡會毛骨悚然啊這也是為什麼今天召委會排說國家機器來做相關的事情因為我們很怕說國家機器介入太深啊"},{"start":15414.073,"end":15432.563,"text":"我估計還是相信大家今天的講法但如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是說這中間一定有環節有差錯那到底是誰的問題我想NCC身為主管機關一定要查明清楚謝謝再請張報告NCC再請張報告提供給洪孟凱委員謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言下一位我們請張祺凱委員"},{"start":15458.475,"end":15465.082,"text":"請下黃部長還有陳主委黃部的黃次長跟中華電信的郭董事長"},{"start":15474.673,"end":15495.693,"text":"不好意思一次要四位重量級上來因為這個事情很嚴重這是老大哥正在看著你你跟我的這個足跡都被看光光了全民現在是很關注這個案子所以我請四位主管一定要非常注意這個事情這個事情有兩個面向第一個 凡走過必留下痕跡"},{"start":15497.677,"end":15521.11,"text":"現在是數位時代啊有的人說什麼王一川、魏豪倫還是說什麼他叫新明、富森現在說誰該想到的現在這個數位時代到底他的資料哪裡來山大電信公司有做這個事情嗎這個摩薩德調嗎只要有做這一定查得出來對不對"},{"start":15522.874,"end":15535.381,"text":"陳志偉這邊．法務部這邊一定查得出來這樣事情閃不出去這是第一個點第二個他是一個客觀的事實所以我從一早到現在我聽到的都是"},{"start":15536.622,"end":15560.213,"text":"欸 大家先幫三大電信公司先把背書 啊 主委你找他來 問一下 他說沒有 這樣就 這人民相信嗎 他是個客觀的事實啊 所以法務部跟NCC NCC是主管機關啊 法務部要捍衛人民的權益啊 人民在怕主機被看光光啊 你們有責任欸 是個客觀的事實 你們要去幫他查清楚 你們才對得起人民啊 是不是這樣"},{"start":15561.554,"end":15587.808,"text":"所以拜託四位喔包括保定好不好我們把這兩個前提先講了好那本席既然是客觀的事實我們就進去追進去追追追我給大家看一個我們辦公室啊在第一個時間點就擋了一種很重要的點位王一川不管你是維吾爾人還是他剛才講他在他的槌上面"},{"start":15589.377,"end":15600.221,"text":"他說他要介紹一種用了很久的手機信用資料分析方法右下角他說一間公司數據公司他說這間公司怎麼做?我說怎麼維護人?"},{"start":15605.779,"end":15633.556,"text":"好 那最真相啊 客觀的事實啊我們辦公室就打個電話給王逸川這個脆三面分享的數據公司跟數據公司通話 問一問答得到三個很重要的資訊來 那這位看一看他講啊 資訊公司會得到一組代表這個個人代號的cookie第二 可以透過這一組代碼去分析這個人在這段時間的足跡第三個同胸部"},{"start":15634.878,"end":15662.567,"text":"他說一百兩折啊,一個數據公司而已喔他說他在比對不同的時間活動的不寵物人士的比例這是不是跟王一川說的一樣主委、市長、部長王一川怎麼說他可以查得出來民進黨112選前之夜跟民眾黨519小草活動跟524的清涼活動人流組成不同他說的是不是跟這間數位公司說的是一樣"},{"start":15664.807,"end":15691.227,"text":"好 我再給大家看下一張我的辦公室對話是這樣因為王毅川公有這間公司會做得到嘛 對不對這個大家進他的槌 查這個公司還查得到我的辦公室助力卡了他說啦 我問他我要辦一個五月辦一檔多年如果五月要再辦一檔多年那我能不能知道五月的活動跟六月的活動裡面的人有沒有重複你看這間公司怎麼說他說可以啊"},{"start":15693.035,"end":15718.242,"text":"因為他那個會有一個詞 這個類似就是廣告ID那個詞 其實他說會cookie啦 他說你透過這樣去做比對 你就可以知道出席者到底有沒有重複這個事情 我的助理繼續跟他對 助理阿們 他說這樣 你這東西會不會有個資的問題啊 我沒辦法理解啊 你如果是用電信的數據的話 怎麼會有cookie這個東西"},{"start":15719.229,"end":15746.05,"text":"我們今天可以到現在嗎?從王玉川開始說這個事情到現在,通常一個觀念是什麼?你們提供的到底是數據還是個資?目前看起來,照這個公司說的,拿到是個資喔!是不是?這問題嚴重嗎?市長,一個數位公司拿得到這樣的資料嗎?這是王玉川說的公司啊!"},{"start":15747.554,"end":15775.943,"text":"要說的所有東西跟王先生一樣啊所以好啊查好不好部長跟諸位先回去先去查一下那提這個還有一個非常重要的重點就是在這三家數據公司不是口抽無憑啦不是說你說沒有提供就沒有啊我們請法務部跟NCC要去一邊查現在民眾都檢舉了嘛對不對要查嘛給人民一個安心的答案就是包括中華電信公司的當事人在這裡"},{"start":15778.503,"end":15797.259,"text":"現在會勝會贏啊 包括你進行什麼大數據的總監啊 這個人民到現在都沒有答案拜託一下 你如果讓人民真的要安心 你們一定要去把它查清楚好不好來 我們再看畫面的 現在我們來講到底違法違在哪裡 你從各支法的第二條去看"},{"start":15798.578,"end":15825.037,"text":"他個資法定義很清楚啊其他得以直接或間接方式識別該人的這個資料剛才那個公司說的王一山說的就是嘛我跟你講個資法第一條 對不對再來他違反了哪一個法我們看一下下一個上一張看一下上一張個資法違反了對不對來再下一張下來來再下來好所以我們現在要查的是什麼"},{"start":15826.588,"end":15848.739,"text":"數位保定交資料．他的資料到底是哪裡來的?大家知不知他的資料有沒有來?如果三家電信公司都沒有做到這個東西不可能嘛是不是?那現在更恐怖的我再給大家看連一個數據的公司民間的他都說他都拿得到那這要查的是兩個方向囉"},{"start":15850.33,"end":15878.632,"text":"三家電信公司包括中華電信你讓數據公司以前主流有拿出來嗎你是不是真的做到你講的個資不出來你已經去了這個四倍化這個都要查啊是不是這樣所以不是只有你直接跟王逸川或者跟民進黨那個中間那個中介到底是什麼這要查得清楚第一我們民眾黨已經去函給中華電信了對不對我們就說這段時間只要是王逸川"},{"start":15880.481,"end":15903.667,"text":"你都沒有嗎?還沒有收到沒有?其實同情會是什麼?有兩種可能吧?有兩種可能就是你們要去做自己客觀的事情自己要證實說你沒有中華電信沒有做過這樣的一個所謂的統計跟分析啦到目前都是口說無憑嘛這其實有法務部有NCC要查好不好?好"},{"start":15904.817,"end":15927.661,"text":"那剛剛有做了一個結議了嘛就是這段時間資料會進來那我今天質詢很重要的一個點就是不是只有針對三家電信公司客觀的事實要呈現有沒有中間、中距的這個數位公司一定要查詢這個好不好最後我做個簡單的這個總結不要浪費大家的時間來我們再看下一張目前發言人問題是什麼就是個人唯一的那個識別碼那個coupon或是MAC"},{"start":15928.803,"end":15940.642,"text":"IMEC這個有沒有可能被電信業者是外洩的這是一個很重要的這個侵害尤其他如果拿到之後他做一個交叉他就可以確認你的身份地位你的這個個人的身份"},{"start":15941.527,"end":15948.991,"text":"那我們的個資老實講現在我們來碰到一個很大問題我們的個資法規範不夠重視啦主委都應該同我了解嘛歐盟他這個通用資訊的這個保護規則GDPR他早就納入這個保護的範圍啊全世界已經有50多個國家用這種規範包括日本、韓國都有我們為什麼沒有所以拜託主委你要回頭進行啊"},{"start":15965.58,"end":15967.541,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員的發言也再請中華電信這邊再回覆張祺凱委員的"},{"start":15995.132,"end":16021.146,"text":"發文,謝謝下一位我們請鄭天才委員主席各位委員有請數位發展部部長還有"},{"start":16022.543,"end":16050.712,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會陳竺偉防務部常務次長還有中華電信股份有限公司中華電信郭董事長各位好各位好這個王一川民進黨的政策會的執行長公然在媒體"},{"start":16053.727,"end":16081.668,"text":"講得非常的清楚用手機訊號比對青鳥行動519民眾黨的集會參與者2024大選選前之夜參與者年齡、身份、政黨傾向這是一個非常非常嚴重的今天要特別要拜託我們所有的公務員我是老公務員"},{"start":16083.018,"end":16110.487,"text":"看到這樣的一個我們就要主動到底我們的法有沒有足那尤其是今天這個檢察事務司檢察司也在所以這個部分我認為應該主動要去偵辦剛才張其凱委員講得非常清楚"},{"start":16113.399,"end":16141.204,"text":"所以這個到底這個怎麼樣能夠我認為他是真的王玉川不是胡亂的他講的是真的我認為是真的所以法務部、檢察司積極的要偵辦然後怎麼樣透過這樣的一個事實在法律上"},{"start":16143.103,"end":16163.737,"text":"在執行上要怎麼樣去檢討去防範我們就先談這個中華電信寫得很清楚啊克群分析特定族群你是國籍大陸你看都可以知道"},{"start":16166.471,"end":16192.396,"text":"剛才中華電信我們的董事長 董事長 你剛才一再的答覆我們的委員說王一川沒有申請 不是他 絕對不是他個人去跟你們申請你們也沒有提供給他 你們可能提供到別的地方去他透過其他的管道 剛才你一直講說那個我們的那個"},{"start":16195.498,"end":16208.664,"text":"相關這些科技防疫的這些你說你的用詞是什麼下架還是叫什麼平台下架平台下架資料銷毀銷毀了嗎對資料銷毀剛才因為我有聽你的答詢那時候沒有講銷毀資料銷毀了資料銷毀報告委員是銷毀之前呢"},{"start":16218.618,"end":16220.599,"text":"所以剛才張熙楷委員講的那個不清楚啊 對不對"},{"start":16246.178,"end":16252.48,"text":"請問一下這個要怎麼去處理?NCC嗎?還是蘇華部?這個不管哪一個部會,現在就要通力合作"},{"start":16272.912,"end":16287.335,"text":"這個會涉及到什麼﹖你打﹖你﹖徐貞燕最近送出來的四個打詐的你再訂的怎麼好 這個沒有那麼好全部都空的了 對不對人民常常 我也常常聽到接到電話詐騙的電話 怎麼連我的名字都知道呢"},{"start":16300.47,"end":16329.353,"text":"對不對也許我是立法院知道一般一般民眾也告訴我他怎麼知道我的電話也知道我的名字一般民眾這樣講啊也許他知道我是我是政治人物啊但是一般民眾告訴我他怎麼知道這個顯然就是毫無防範已經到這種地步啊所以你在打詐釋法釋法嗎你在定了在怎麼遮掩這個沒有弄好"},{"start":16332.082,"end":16358.287,"text":"一切都是突然的所以這個部分這個作為一個現在個資法現在是你還是誰現在我們現在已經有成立那個個資保護委員會的籌備處當然還沒有成立以前我們現在還是分散式的各個部會就它主管所以這個主管機關目前還是法務部嗎不是你們現在是誰籌備委員會"},{"start":16363.257,"end":16364.037,"text":"當然還是你法務部"},{"start":16390.854,"end":16393.758,"text":"法修了嗎?各自法修了嗎?各自法現在怎麼修的?主管機關?寫籌備處嗎?不會吧?"},{"start":16406.589,"end":16407.07,"text":"不管怎樣因為時間的關係"},{"start":16427.136,"end":16429.518,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員的發言,下一位我們請賴世保委員"},{"start":16465.4,"end":16490.77,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進有請NCC的陳主委、事務發部的黃部長法務部的黃次長、中華電信的郭董事長請陳主委、黃部長、黃次長、郭董事長我請教郭董事長你早上回答其他委員說國安局要跟你調資料媒體這樣寫啊"},{"start":16494.178,"end":16503.188,"text":"那個媒體剛早上回答就是提到說相關單位如果有來調資料就依照通保法的相關規定來調閱"},{"start":16506.699,"end":16509.04,"text":"我上個禮拜上爭論節目我的對面就是執政黨的一個公主人員"},{"start":16528.454,"end":16550.405,"text":"他就這麼大的一個看板一個手板啦中華電信他就是替王一川講話啦說中華電信提供這些資料手機定位清清楚楚三個配置是你們公開的資料中華電信"},{"start":16552.889,"end":16578.557,"text":"這裡面來講的話這一次來講的話王毓川說你們沒有他沒有跟你們要問題有沒有政黨人士跟你要報告委員沒有你確定嗎你確定嗎你董事長知道底下的人在誰跟人家要資料這資料怎麼來的這資料有啊在電視節目上都我的親眼看到啊就你們中華電信提供的啊中華電信"},{"start":16581.53,"end":16600.278,"text":"請您出座委員如果那個委員您提到是這節目上的人潮分析資料嗎他就是你們的不是人潮啊就什麼什麼這裡面就接近個資啊接近個資啊就中華電信提供的啊什麼就這樣的資料來我先請教"},{"start":16603.695,"end":16631.21,"text":"有什麼你再講一遍沒有我說委員如果有任何資料方便提供給我們我忘了copy啦我忘了給他照相啦我就節目製作單位弄給你節目法務部的次長這個案子現在立案沒有這個個案現在台北地檢署已經立案了已經立案現在是他治案對沒有錯他治案他現在就有點耍賴了說這個膝蓋響就等於是說他某種程度講是他亂講一通"},{"start":16633.243,"end":16655.274,"text":"可是這事情很嚴重他講出來就讓人家覺得台灣是一個警察孤家雷毫無隱私隨時天眼天聽天眼天耳都在你講什麼話都聽得到你做什麼事都看得見很可怕請問你他的如果有行者最高可以住幾年"},{"start":16656.206,"end":16668.592,"text":"國務部長,看它涉及什麼樣的犯罪?最高啦,我就通報法,違反通報法通報法它是五年以下的違反個資法呢?個資法也是五年以下請問手機的IP定位是不是個資?手機的IP當然是個資啊當然是個資,好,那個次長請回啦,中華電信留著齁,中華電信留著"},{"start":16683.643,"end":16697.273,"text":"這個請教NCC主委啊你們剛剛一直講我現在就來看一個請看一個資料喔審計部的公開審計報告講了非公務機關實名制完全沒有監督機合那個"},{"start":16698.496,"end":16720.436,"text":"那個要中華電信的國董還在你注意看喔你們跟他一直講來來來我就請教主委是不是都銷毀了都刪除了有沒有好你講的不對這是審計部的一個資料審計部資料講的是什麼第一個非公務器官中華電信是非公務器官7全家"},{"start":16721.809,"end":16739.554,"text":"以及全聯都是非公務機關委員來你聽我講等一下你們講的是你們講的是簡訊我講的是before你講的是After你簡訊的十連字這個你們消毀了沒有錯但是之前"},{"start":16741.132,"end":16744.938,"text":"之前 簡訊之前 進去啊 進去這個全聯啊 進去全接啊 進去7都有這個銷毀沒有"},{"start":16754.028,"end":16776.639,"text":"報告委員那個簡訊十連字的平台也都資料銷毀我跟妳講簡訊是用銷毀的嗎以前不是簡訊以前是直接用QR code進去來進去小QR code我進去7-11了我進去全家了我進去全聯了報告委員您提的那個QR code跟那個簡訊十連字就是同一件事"},{"start":16777.799,"end":16778.46,"text":"為什麼審計部指出沒有啊?"},{"start":16805.991,"end":16813.804,"text":"非公務機關指的就是中華電信指的就是全聯指的就是全家沒完全沒有監督機合"},{"start":16816.703,"end":16843.372,"text":"審計部啊審計部的報告啊審計部的報告啊報告委員那個應該是因為當時防疫的時候這種檢訊實驗室在推廣初期還有就是用手寫的不曉得委員還記不記得就是用手寫的那這部分應該是回饋到每個目的事業主管機關譬如說全聯他是經濟部的一些零售商那經濟部要督導全聯把那些手寫的"},{"start":16843.792,"end":16861.156,"text":"所以你們不敢保護嘛我現在告訴你那個資料現在都還在那個地方沒有消除沒有銷毀這個NCC可以再follow up一下嗎因為這個是衛福部的職權啦因為我們管的是那個電信的部分這個部分我們來處理來請教那個蘇華部的黃部長"},{"start":16866.697,"end":16894.268,"text":"過去唐鳳的時候是規定他所有的會議紀錄都是公開透明而且是逐字稿你看齁我寫齁速發布第19次部會議逐字稿結果5月8日之後就沒有了你上台以後就沒有了你是怎麼樣不要趕快透明了是不是不是我們會在我們不會有逐字稿但是我們的一些那個決策還是公開透明"},{"start":16896.009,"end":16913.067,"text":"人家都有組織稿的所以唐鳳的你不要了就對了講這樣也可以啦你說唐鳳的做得不好你不要也可以啦組織稿的做法對我來講是比較奇怪的做法那我們會有不同的做法來公開透明"},{"start":16914.247,"end":16933.277,"text":"我們會把就是我們的一些政策會很公開透明跟民眾你去考慮一下啦那個感覺齁唐鳳這個做法很好啊結果你怎麼會把這個不錯的政策把它砍掉啊你去思考一下最後一個問題數位部黃部長你知道嗎創意私房你知道吧"},{"start":16935.676,"end":16941.901,"text":"為什麼有啊?還有啊!這個網站在這裡啊!你看到!Metalfan這個本組是...盟主是老馬我把它蓋掉了這立法院的"},{"start":16966.64,"end":16985.934,"text":"對,我們有個那個...你封網確定嗎?對,對,我們應該是把它封了,而且我得到報告是已經封了,那我再回去...封了不徹底喔!封了不徹底喔!再回去檢查一下你...你...再不check一下喔!為什麼漏網之語喔!我去...我再去了解,不過我知道...來來來,你的方便目來跟你講說..."},{"start":16987.815,"end":17015.053,"text":"對 我們再跟委員部討論一下 這個上次我們這個 我們有從我們的TWNIC那個DNS你可以不可以答應一個禮拜以內重新check一遍封的結果怎麼樣 然後對外宣布對外宣布 發一個新聞稿所以我們根本查過了 絕對封網 絕對沒有死角我們剛剛講通訊機制就是TWNIC的DNSDNS設了以後 為什麼一個禮拜以內對外發新聞稿 可以吧我再給委員報告 好"},{"start":17019.418,"end":17033.697,"text":"再請數法部部長數法部了解後提供資料給賴氏寶委員下一位我們請廖先祥委員"},{"start":17047.506,"end":17056.111,"text":"好謝謝主席麻煩幫我邀請我們這個NCC的陳朱偉還有中華電信郭董事長請陳朱偉郭董事長好兩位好原則上在我們一個民主國家一個執政黨的高層在一個公正的一個政論節目中所講的話我們原則上是可以相信的嘛對不對"},{"start":17074.997,"end":17075.137,"text":"我先確認一下"},{"start":17103.078,"end":17115.052,"text":"在不管他們有沒有提供資料的情況下針對不同的活動去比對出席的人員有沒有重複這件事情是我們中華電信一些去識別化只給輪廓的一些數據所能夠調查出來的事情嗎"},{"start":17122.08,"end":17143.985,"text":"報告委員我們功能上沒有設定因為去識別化之後你就沒辦法回溯所以沒有辦法做不同所以就算有提供這份資料應該也是沒有辦法做這樣的判斷嗎是的是所以這份資料的來源那絕對也不應該就算他是真的的話也不會是正常的正式的管道來獲得嗎是不是應該可以這麼來理解"},{"start":17145.385,"end":17163.204,"text":"本公司沒有提供中華電信沒有提供這樣的資料好那所以說在這樣子的情況下我們中華電信有講說我們並沒有針對清掉活動或是之前講的特別活動提供特別的訊息的資料那我想確認一下有沒有"},{"start":17164.301,"end":17189.684,"text":"政府的單位長期以來有跟我們中華電信的機器房來做串接也就是說我們他們沒有跟你們提出申請但是我們是在無時無刻的把我們相關的通訊的一些資料傳輸給特定的單位有沒有委員沒有沒有中華電信一切都遵照國家的法令來辦理不可能做這樣的事包括國安單位任何的單位沒有也不可能無時無刻的去串接我們的資料獲取資訊"},{"start":17191.246,"end":17204.306,"text":"在假設王一川先生講的是事實的情況下 那我們目前可能 我的推論就只有一個可能了嘛 就是我們電信公司的系統被害了嘛 才有可能有這樣子的情況嘛"},{"start":17205.492,"end":17226.887,"text":"不然你們有想得出來其他的情況王一千先生手上拿的資料他是怎麼取得的嗎我們不清楚你不清楚嘛 對不對你們不清楚那唯一的可能就是但是他就是有資料嘛唯一的可能就是我們中華電信的網路資訊或是三大電信業者的資訊被某個單位駭進去了嘛我們之後有沒有被駭過有沒有辦法做事後的調查"},{"start":17228.496,"end":17253.342,"text":"報告委員,上禮拜我們有請專業的個人資料保護的單位主管跟團隊同仁調查我們燃潮分析的平台從5月17日到5月14日之間,這裡面沒有任何的異常的存取或使用這個平台應該也是整理過的一個平台嗎?對不對?那原始的資料呢?"},{"start":17254.366,"end":17282.795,"text":"有整理過了嗎?有去確認過了嗎?我們的這個原始的資料電信的信念資料呢都只在中華電信內部不可能這個外流剛才有報告其他委員有詢問個人資料跟數據分析是兩件事對個人資料一定是留在中華電信對你們數據分析確認沒有資料沒有沒有被盜過嗎?對那原始的最基本的資料在我們中華電信的內部嗎?是那這個東西有沒有被竊取過?或是長期來你們就會被竊取你們不知道啊"},{"start":17283.775,"end":17302.967,"text":"報告委員我們清查的過程是沒有發現有清查過嗎最原始的資料就剛才提到5月17日到24日之間我們相關的資料有這個整個平台有那是人流的平台嘛人流數據的平台嘛我現在講的是最原始的數據最原本的data你們有確認過了嗎這個資料我們有可能"},{"start":17304.298,"end":17325.696,"text":"大家都在講國家機器嘛有沒有可能某個單位長期來就是沒有經過你們的同意去調取去竊取你們的資料報告委員不可能發生這樣的事情我們會定期做這個治安相關的防護的檢查所以如果有任何這個異常的行為都會被我們發現所以你們確認你們最原始的資料以及你們整理過的人流資料在"},{"start":17327.476,"end":17340.516,"text":"長期以來或者是針對青鳥的活動都沒有任何資料外洩的可能性不可能發生委員剛才講的這樣的一個狀況所以現在目前就是一個很大的羅生門那你們有猜想的出來有可能是怎樣的情況嗎?"},{"start":17342.611,"end":17368.068,"text":"我們沒有這個時間去想這個好那目前唯一可能唯一可能的那就可能在政論頻道上面有他的說法有可能是唬爛嘛目前也有這種說法嘛那剛剛也有委員問的就是說我們現在NCC已經在調查了嘛那其實政論節目在最後都會有幾行字啦寫說來賓的發言就可能"},{"start":17369.389,"end":17394.696,"text":"我們來賓發言不代表本台立場我想這樣子的文字敘述有辦法規範到電視台嗎還是說誰講的誰負責我們還是會依照我們的若實事實查證原則並不表示說他貼在那一張文字以後就免責所以說就算是來賓如果說未來的來賓在這段節目上面有一些虛也不實的說法那電視台應該也是要有相關的一個責任"},{"start":17395.776,"end":17422.212,"text":"這個主持人在主持整個節目過程裡面來講的話對於這個比如說這個有涉及到可能事實查證的部分這還是要他有一個維持的義務好那我就尊重我們後續的調查那最後一點因為目前這個案子還是羅生門嘛對不對那剛剛包括我們的吳宗憲委員還有我們的黃建浩委員都有提到我們在跟電信公司簽契約的時候都會有定型化契約嘛那裡面可能就是有提到這個資料要不要提供我們會去勾選嘛對不對"},{"start":17423.112,"end":17440.109,"text":"那我想但是其實很多的民眾根本不知道我們當初勾了什麼包括其實我個人我已經忘記我上次在簽門號的時候我勾了什麼嘛那現在既然已經變成一個是全國性的一個矚目的資安事件我們可不可以我們NCC可不可以請我們的三大"},{"start":17441.329,"end":17457.229,"text":"電信業者每個人去發簡訊給每個用戶告知你這個用戶當初在個資的定型化契約你是勾哪一個選項如果我們要調整我們可以透過什麼樣子的管道去做更改這部分可不可以"},{"start":17458.01,"end":17460.591,"text":"報告委員我們在個人資料提供的過程當中我們設定我們的D4是如果沒有勾就表示不同意是當然"},{"start":17483.86,"end":17501.952,"text":"好那但是我剛剛就講很多人就說這個東西大概就只是簽而已嘛大家不會去看那有時候可能也是這個服務人員引導啊就勾勾勾也有很多這樣的情形嘛對不對就是服務人員會引導嘛啊就勾勾勾那沒關係我們可不可以既然已經發生這樣的事情了很多人想要保護自己的個資"},{"start":17503.253,"end":17517.204,"text":"我也沒有說一定要我們電信業者去發簡訊給所有的用戶但是至少我們NCC或者是三大電信業者應該要有一個公開的說明如果說我們的用戶想要取消相關的電信足跡的追蹤的話我們用戶可以怎麼做"},{"start":17518.084,"end":17521.045,"text":"謝謝6先生委員的發言下一位登記的委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在尤浩委員尤浩委員請"},{"start":17562.42,"end":17574.889,"text":"謝謝會議主席還有請NCC主委、陳耀祥、陳主委還有法務部、還有長賜、黃次長那今天就沒有特別問蘇法務部部長請陳主委、黃次長"},{"start":17579.285,"end":17603.163,"text":"主席好、長官好那在這裡本席要直接就教剛才許多的委員他都非常關心關注的在這次的議題那其實在這次王逸川他所提到的這個所謂的相關個資洩漏大家其實都其實心裡都非常的擔心擔憂啊服務處也接下了不下二三十通的電話"},{"start":17604.144,"end":17630.289,"text":"他很擔心的這個個資外洩啊所以網路甚至有一個梗圖啊就像這一則的這個圖片一樣當你發一則笑話的時候可能連王逸川都看到可能你發訊息給你太太的時候整個笑話可能王逸川都在笑那我們接著看下一頁那我想要先請教一下這個我們的主委那對於這個目前來講一個民進黨的政策會執行長那是不是因為他的這個不當發言啊"},{"start":17631.469,"end":17650.386,"text":"還造成了這個整個社會媒體的報導之下還大家的討論之下引起了軒然大波大家對於個資保護人心惶惶你認同嗎這個事情讓大家對於個資的保護更加重視那是會擔心吧擔心當然也會啦那所以說一個政策會執行長民進黨政策會執行長講這樣子的言論是正確的嗎"},{"start":17653.826,"end":17673.011,"text":"我們第一個我們現在不曉得他的狀況這個案的最終的資料情況是怎麼來但是如果是因為這樣的原因而引起個人資料的疑慮來解的話我們當然我們覺得應該有哪些地方沒有做好那我們繼續努力沒關係我直接請教一下市長就是對於這個就是兩種情況可能嘛"},{"start":17677.313,"end":17696.842,"text":"他在切割這個王逸川的發言我們都看到因為他那個發言明顯不當其實也是非常不適任作為一個政黨的偵測會執行長我想請教一下次長您是法律專家又是非常具有實務經驗以目前來講通保法第24條包括在資料上面所提出的以及說各自法41條"},{"start":17698.243,"end":17706.72,"text":"他包括詐欺他今天講的話如果說他是一個欺騙欺瞞在欺騙社會大眾的話哪一個的罪責比較重"},{"start":17709.222,"end":17731.93,"text":"這看到他具體的犯罪情節是什麼?如果說是詐欺罪他有可能處到一年以上、幾年以下的犯罪那如果說違反個資法41條的話個資法可能就五年以下五年以下嘛那所以說他今天他所這樣子去揭露大家的這個資料或是個資以及包括大家在這個目前他講說這些所謂的大家的定位還可以作為交叉分析的話這樣子是不是違反個資法?"},{"start":17733.11,"end":17739.294,"text":"更為報告你這已經涉及到這個個案了事實我們不明確所以我們沒有辦法就但是如果你這個太樣的話是違反國資法的嗎?"},{"start":17742.401,"end":17771.199,"text":"如果說以他這個部分他在這個手機定位的交叉分析他是充分擁有這些數據資料如他所講的話那他就是違反個資法的一個狀況各位報告我們不要講這個個案我們抽離這個個案前提就是說如果有沒有違反個資法必須要前提是他是不是我們個資法上所保護的個資啦前提是這一關反正他現在來講他只有承認他資料哪裡來或者是說他今天的話他沒有這個資料就是譬如說一年以下或五年以下之一嘛"},{"start":17772.159,"end":17777.402,"text":"那在手機定位的交叉分析手機定位的這件事情那請問主委這次收到各自把保護沒有錯"},{"start":17790.47,"end":17810.64,"text":"如果是數據來講的話就不是個資如果是個資比如說這樣的話當然是就會有個資法的適用的問題那其實跟主委直接提到了王逸川他所講的這些人跟原人的小草有去比對過當然王逸川他說這個跟伍儀奇在民進黨樓下那些小草訊號比起來也不同人"},{"start":17811.3,"end":17822.44,"text":"所以說小草也沒跑但是這一批人跟那一批人上次選舉1月13日之前選前職業人去對也沒有關係那請問主委這叫做有趣識別化嗎?"},{"start":17824.576,"end":17843.781,"text":"從他的個資看起來來講的話他沒有涉及到所謂的特定的個人但是就他這如何其實這個案件裡面最我個人也比較好奇是他如何去比對這個問題因為一般來講的話我們如果是數據應用分析來講的話比如說這個這段時間跟以前那段時間以前那段時間來講這個資料到底還在不在或這個"},{"start":17845.902,"end":17866.268,"text":"所以主委我直接講啦就是說這種來講就是沒有去識別化所以你回答的你也很很為難很無力啊因為你要幫王逸川編你也點頭了我沒有幫他編我只是說你也點頭了沒有錯各自侵害的問題對這是各自侵害的問題所以就其實他這個就是很明顯的就叫做沒有去識別化那依照歐盟第29條資料保護工作小組來講其實在王逸川在政論時間上所講的"},{"start":17871.269,"end":17887.915,"text":"他是絕對已經可以清楚讓社會大眾聽到他所提的言語已經可以辨識那些人出席什麼樣的政治活動所以說這個部分用去識別化來帶過包括當初祖密的回覆啊那查得出東西嗎?這樣回覆是很難的"},{"start":17888.835,"end":17905.428,"text":"所以說其實還是要跟主委講今天剛才在審查這個提案的時候其實如果說3個月2個月這個沒有辦法讓大家社會幸福因為這件事情來講它嚴重的影響到未來訴發部以及行政要通過這個就是我們打詐專法的部分"},{"start":17905.968,"end":17907.51,"text":"最後我還是要請中華電信這邊在有人跟我們辦公室爆料"},{"start":17925.428,"end":17942.786,"text":"說在這個中華電信大數據分析服務方案來講那大家應該找中華電信當問責的對象那我在這裡我直接因為時間階段提出那有人有明確跟本席辦公室提到中華電信法律事務處副處長副總經理魏惠珍是以前柯建銘的助理"},{"start":17943.487,"end":17964.899,"text":"所以說這個是也是很玄的那所以說手機定位不同場次不同群體的交叉分析中華電信這個部分如何做好一個資料的保密啊那因為時間到了我想請這件事情因為有人跟我爆料所以我想說還是請您會後再跟我這邊做回覆好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝有號委員的發言請會後再向有號委員"},{"start":17970.496,"end":17984.004,"text":"報告下一位登記的委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在請張志文委員張志文委員張志文委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在請黃國昌委員"},{"start":18002.306,"end":18017.237,"text":"謝謝主席。是不是麻煩有請通傳會陳柱惠以及中華電信的郭董事長。請陳柱惠、請郭董事長。委員好。"},{"start":18021.059,"end":18036.934,"text":"主委好 董事長主委我先針對我上一次提出來的問題繼續往下追因為前面有個NCC主委蕭啟宏他留了詐團的門聖這件事情人神共憤我相信NCC也發出譴責的聲明"},{"start":18039.605,"end":18056.315,"text":"那上一次我說針對第二類電信的部分被詐騙集團濫用那我問你說NCC有沒有行政裁處你說要等到檢察官偵查結束你要進行行政調查才會裁處我相信應該主委還記得吧"},{"start":18057.358,"end":18083.525,"text":"我們已經有採取相關的案件來那2024年1月起訴了嘛那從我上次詢問到現在經過一段時間現在採取的結果是什麼針對飛速移動台灣卓域跟25電信那個平台數什麼時候採取的?採取的結果是什麼?因為我一直在查NCCR相關的委員會議新聞稿我都沒找到"},{"start":18085.169,"end":18107.311,"text":"現在採取的結果是什麼我們採取的是海峽電信還有那個那個是之前另外一個案子去年的案子啊早就處理完了啦我上次在問你的就是針對這個蕭祺鴻擔任顧問這個飛速移動台灣卓越跟25電信嘛我上次在問主委的時候講得很清楚了你說你要時間嘛那現在採取的結果是什麼是"},{"start":18107.551,"end":18108.292,"text":"主委你還需要多久還需要多久"},{"start":18137.079,"end":18164.614,"text":"跟委員報告25電信跟台灣卓伊他並非電信事業那25電信他提供的服務並因為下面的這個資訊是黑莓卡那25電信他並沒有是提供這種黑莓他提供的是黑莓卡並會提供電信服務所以變成的是說這都不是屬於NCC採取的範圍是嗎目前為止我們看到的訊息25電信跟台灣卓伊是如此你們那個行政調查報告還要多久"},{"start":18165.933,"end":18189.353,"text":"我們看過這個起訴書上面的這個訊息目前的為止是二五電訊他現在已經來宗旨跟我們匯值他的電信服務的重點對不起這不是我的問題啊你有兩種可能的答案第一個我沒有要做行政調查但這顯然不是主委上次給我的答案嘛主委上次跟我說你要做行政調查嘛那我現在的問題很具體行政調查什麼時候會出來"},{"start":18191.363,"end":18217.32,"text":"我們現在所了解的資料就是臺灣卓伊他並不是他沒有提供電信服務所以他不是電信事業所以在如果說調查完應該是目前這樣的一個情形所以你們沒有要做行政調查嗎請數位這個行政調查來講是說比如說這兩家還有沒有其他的比如說像黑莓卡跟比特幣這個部分那這個會涉及到相關的法律是什麼那我們要比如說是行政調查沒有沒有這還是在處理當中所以還要處理多久"},{"start":18221.425,"end":18244.983,"text":"不是 要看處理什麼事情如果說比如說像那個行政調查裡面來講的話沒有啦 我請主委齁再回去看一下我們上次詢答的那個我們打詐司法裡面來講的話比如針對黑媒現在我不是在講打詐司法這件事情你有沒有要做行政調查跟委員報告我們現在已經針對二五電信去調查過他提供的服務行政調查報告什麼時候可以做出來"},{"start":18246.414,"end":18275.304,"text":"我們目前並沒有發現二五電訊在這一件事情上有違反我們電網法上面的規定所以他被起訴了但是沒有違法是這樣嗎沒有沒有他起訴違法但是違反相關的刑法的規定嘛那行政調查來講他們只是說我們當時有調查沒有關係嘛如果你今天行政調查的結果是他沒有違反相關的法律那也是一個調查的結論嘛那我的意思就是我現在不要聽你們講的白紙黑字的行政調查結果什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":18276.758,"end":18285.566,"text":"還需要多久?你說現在調查完了,那你等一下可能回去就可以寫行政調查報告嗎?那你的行政調查報告經不經典型檢驗站來講嗎?行政調查報告順便說明一下檢察官上面所點出來的事情蕭啟宏他協助"},{"start":18299.059,"end":18324.753,"text":"二五電信公司跟通傳會負責電信營運管理及中華電信股份有限公司人員接洽跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?在行政調查報告當中一併說明可以嗎?好來請中華電信董事長中華電信這個案子事後有沒有去了解這個詐騙的門神蕭啟宏後來跟中華電信的誰聯繫?"},{"start":18329.365,"end":18343.357,"text":"本人有了解有跟主管聯繫但後面我們都沒有進行任何的合作沒有關係齁他跟誰聯繫聯繫的事項是什麼中華電信這邊可不可以提供一個書面說明"},{"start":18345.227,"end":18359.486,"text":"可以嗎?可以嘛,好那針對大家今天很關心的事情也就是說涉及到在不同的時間跟空間使用這一些電信使用人"},{"start":18360.547,"end":18379.134,"text":"不管是不是有去識別化因為你即使有去識別化如果有ID做連結還是要回溯才能做比對嘛我想這個基本的common sense大家都有來請中華電信董事長5月19號的時候我發函給中華電信所以我要跟你們購買2024年5月19號在"},{"start":18385.595,"end":18414.529,"text":"北平東路的大型集會2024年5月24日臺北市濟南路、青島東路、中山南路大型集會你們產品裡面的人潮客群分析的這個產品那請問針對這兩場集會中華電信有沒有做過人潮客群分析我們沒有從來就沒有做過好那如果我今天要跟你們買你們會出售嗎我們沒有的話就無從出售第二你們可以回去做啊"},{"start":18415.137,"end":18442.434,"text":"第二 這個我們公司基本上基於這個行政中立政治中立的一個立場還有在政策上我們不承接這個政黨還有這個涉及到包括選舉或者是有所以政黨沒有選舉沒有好 那我就進一步要具體的請教就是說因為你們講得很清楚了啦你東西都沒有提供給王玉川嘛我們姑且相信"},{"start":18443.194,"end":18463.513,"text":"我們姑且相信但我現在要進一步的問是說不管是在北平東路的519還是我們在討論國會改革法案的時候周遭所聚集的人群到目前為止中華電信從來沒有做過人群客氣分析我們沒有從來沒有做過嘛好那第二個"},{"start":18464.997,"end":18494.176,"text":"今天如果有政黨或政治人物主動跟你們中華電信要買的話你們也不會出手我們拒絕提供這方面的服務你們拒絕提供這方面的服務那我現在要問一個比較關鍵的問題就是說中華電信裡面過去這段時間當中被媒體披露有非常多的綠油友有非常多的綠油友當然他們是按照自己的專業還是按照"},{"start":18495.492,"end":18517.51,"text":"政治關係到中華電信去認知我相信這社會會公平我現在具體的問題是從2018年以後到現在中華電信有沒有針對譬如說像選舉的時候選前之夜這種人群的聚集做過任何的分析"},{"start":18518.157,"end":18519.419,"text":"從2018年到現在如果有人手上拿到"},{"start":18531.833,"end":18550.055,"text":"針對這一個客群進行分析因為今天董事長說中華電信從來沒做過嘛就我的了解沒有好如果有人手上有這樣子的人群客群分析他一定是偷偷的非法的使用你們的data去進行分析我這樣子的理解對嗎"},{"start":18553.629,"end":18563.041,"text":"因為你說你們從來沒做過嘛就正常的管道公開的從來沒做過嘛現在大家在質疑的是什麼有沒有私底下"},{"start":18564.164,"end":18585.864,"text":"用這個data去做私底下的分析所以我的問題很簡單中華電信的董事長今天在國會告訴全體國人中華電信從來沒有針對這一種政治性的集會進行人潮分析我的理解沒有錯吧如果有人手上拿到這個東西一定是非法使用對不對"},{"start":18588.01,"end":18599.029,"text":"我們中華電信沒有提供這方面的資料對啦你說你沒有提供這方面的資料我姑且信之嘛但我的意思就是說如果有人手上有的話那一定是非法使用對不對"},{"start":18600.441,"end":18629.801,"text":"中華電信要有個立場啊我們沒有做過這個事啊如果有人背著中華電信的高層董總不知道私下偷偷用中華電信的data幹這種事情中華電信絕不容許一定是非法的追究法律責任到底董事長可不可以展現這個態度這個如果有這個剛才委員所提的相關的個案我們一定會查明役處究責好下一個來最後請主委不好意思再一分鐘就好"},{"start":18630.981,"end":18647.829,"text":"依照個人資料保護法22條的規定中央目的主管機關或是其實地方政府他為了要去確保有關於個人資料保護認為有必要的話是不是可以進行行政調查如果依照個人資料保護法22條的規定如果對於"},{"start":18653.24,"end":18677.676,"text":"本法所規定第一項第二項他可以做什麼他可以進入那個場所他可以檢查或者是處分喔他可以要求你提出資料喔還可以直接把那些資料予以扣留或者是複製這個都是我們給行政調查賦予的權限嘛我的理解應該沒有錯吧主委是我們就是基本上是用機場的手段去處理好"},{"start":18678.556,"end":18696.999,"text":"到目前為止,你們過去這一年對於五大電信業者辦過幾次個資的行政檢查?報告委員,其實我們非常重視個資,NCC成立以後至少我了解108年就開始每一年都要求"},{"start":18698.041,"end":18719.161,"text":"108年開始每一年通通都有檢查舉例來說像去年大概在七八月完成那我們今年也排定在八九月也陸陸續續也要去進行看業者有沒有落實他的個資維護計畫我先確定一下啦你們從108年就有做行政檢查到目前為止沒有發現有任何違反的狀況對不對"},{"start":18720.916,"end":18723.258,"text":"對嘛 所以我說依照法律效果來講可以罰多少錢"},{"start":18749.214,"end":18774.529,"text":"2萬元到20萬元以下 2萬以上20萬以下嘛還有第25條的各項處分嘛好最後一個最關鍵的問題來請中華電信董事長還有NCC主委一併回答最後的問題齁剛剛NCC說了嘛從108年到現在每一年他們都有針對各支進行行政檢查這個行政檢查的檢查報告NCC可不可以提供"},{"start":18778.073,"end":18805.481,"text":"需要多久每一年喔從你們開始做到現在喔每一年的行政檢查的報告可不可以提供報告委員我們大概給我們三個禮拜確定一下因為我剛才108年是我任職啦那我回去再確定我們倒過來從比如說從2011年我們回去沒有關係啊你就從現在開始往前回溯嘛看你做幾年所有的行政檢查報告都交出來可以嗎"},{"start":18806.021,"end":18806.702,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員的發言登記"},{"start":18828.871,"end":18856.75,"text":"登記質詢委員均與發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員中嘉賓張志倫所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請列席相關部會及中華電信競速以書面答覆本日議程處理完畢現在休息6月6日星期四上午9點繼續開會"},{"start":18884.387,"end":18884.407,"text":"感謝謝謝謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}