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環境部"},{"start":1801.759,"end":1820.136,"text":"繼後便簽署組長溫玉勇主席科教級委員致恩。5月27日報告時響應宣讀上次會議事錄決定事務確定。而教育部部長鄭英耀練習報告又概況並備質詢。本議程由委員萬美琳等24人提出質詢。軍醫教育部部長鄭英耀及相關人員及習達夫說明"},{"start":1820.656,"end":1837.767,"text":"另由委員牛許廷等二人提出書面質詢．決定一報告及詢答完畢．二委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報．三對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分．請相關機關監訴以書面答覆．通過臨時提案六項．5月29日報告事項．"},{"start":1838.527,"end":1859.74,"text":"核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就展望全球核能發電趨勢我國核電廠研議推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源次規劃進行專題報告．並備質詢本日已曾由委員洪孟凱等18人提出質詢軍機核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部常務次長林全能"},{"start":1860.16,"end":1876.568,"text":"及相關人員及答覆說明．並由吳委員吳春成等三人提出書面質詢．決定一報告及詢答完畢．二委員首提書面質詢或相關資料6日進入並刊登公報．三隊委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分．及相關機關技術與書面答覆宣布完畢"},{"start":1880.083,"end":1904.249,"text":"在場委員由於未達議決人數3人所以我們議事路暫不確定那今天的議程是邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就人工智慧、AI推動現況與未來方向進行專題報告並備質詢首先我們來介紹我們在場的委員洪孟楷委員"},{"start":1908.635,"end":1936.815,"text":"讓我們來介紹我們與會的官員我們國科會主委吳誠文吳主委國科會副主任委員陳秉宇陳副主委還有我們數位發展部的常務次長葉寧葉次長還有數位發展部數位產業署的副署長林俊秀林副署長好謝謝"},{"start":1942.072,"end":1948.554,"text":"我們首先就來請國科會的吳主任委員進行報告報告時間8分鐘主席、各位委員、各位先進大家早安"},{"start":1969.844,"end":1987.223,"text":"今天成門大院教育及文化委員會安排國科會就人工智慧、AI推動現況與未來發展方向進行報告感謝各位委員關注AI科技發展也請各位委員會議指導"},{"start":1990.973,"end":2011.892,"text":"自2022年CHAT-GPT發布以來AI已成為新一波工業革命的重要引擎國際大廠如Google、Meta、OpenAI均推出多模態AI模型相關應用服務也推陳出新帶來廣泛且巨大的影響同時"},{"start":2014.571,"end":2034.714,"text":"各國依其獨特、歷史文化、社會習性等．紛紛推動AI基礎設施建置．以確保各自的數位主權．除投入運算資源外．也致力於資料演算法的透明與可用性．"},{"start":2037.589,"end":2053.734,"text":"並打造完善的AI法治環境．以因應AI對社會經濟帶來的影響．為全面推動AI普及與產業升級．行政院於2023年合併台灣AI行動計畫2.0．"},{"start":2058.837,"end":2084.866,"text":"主軸重點包括優化AI人才培育及就業培訓深耕AI核心技術加速相關產業發展完善運作環境促進資料流通及法治建構提升國際影響力拓展AI國際合作回應人文社會議題延期AI影響及解決方案"},{"start":2085.95,"end":2100.375,"text":"另外為即時運營快速興起的深層式AI本會推動深層式AI兌換引擎及精創台灣方案結合深層式AI與我國晶片製造優勢帶動全產業創新轉型接下來報告本會近期AI推動重點"},{"start":2116.994,"end":2134.565,"text":"首先本會自去年4月啟動TATE計畫為開發符合台灣文化價值觀的大型語言模型TATE以繁體中文及在地內容進行基本的訓練"},{"start":2136.36,"end":2150.966,"text":"今年4月15日已公開釋出商用版及學員版兩款模型均表現優異。4月29日再發布升級版模型以快速因應外界期待。"},{"start":2152.031,"end":2172.907,"text":"在TED開發過程中持續與產學研團隊發展多元應用．包括農業知識檢索系統、神農TED、中小學生台語教學等共7個領域．該模型的釋出有助促進國內生成式AI發展．"},{"start":2174.964,"end":2200.87,"text":"對技術能量者可藉維調或檢索增強生成技術開發符合其需求的服務在技術能量不足的使用者方面可以選用我們產業界系統整合業者以TED打造的解決方案來協助使TED成為台灣指標性的基礎模型"},{"start":2202.062,"end":2226.722,"text":"未來將持續精進這個模型．催生多元落地的創新應用第二,擴建AI算力超級電腦為稱成是AI開發不可或缺的關鍵資源為迎接AI等新興科技導引產業革命性創新本會分期佈建算力資源"},{"start":2228.632,"end":2234.406,"text":"我們打算由目前台灣三二號九個PetaFlops的算力逐步發展"},{"start":2235.716,"end":2256.673,"text":"預計在2028年完成200個Petaflops以上的這個算力並致力與產官學員合作以具規模運算資源提供產學員完善AI模型開發環境加速AI開發與應用提升我國整體經濟發展動能第三"},{"start":2264.878,"end":2279.047,"text":"推動AI科研本會從科研人才治理三大面向聚焦國際優勢AI核心能力強化台灣在全球AI發展關鍵地位"},{"start":2280.263,"end":2298.191,"text":"對外在本會與美國、德國、法國等AI先進國家的科技合作協議框架下持續補助雙邊研究、人才交流舉辦聯合研討會等對內補助33個學院機構共200多位的學者致力開發AI前端技術並應用半導體與製造"},{"start":2312.249,"end":2330.255,"text":"醫療與健康、環境、智慧程式與服務等全球關注且台灣具優勢之重大議題提升AI技術能量及應用擴散最後是完備AI法制"},{"start":2331.212,"end":2350.593,"text":"行政院於112年4月設立數位政策法治協調專案會議由三位政委共同主持跨部會會診延期協調處理數位法治議題其中AI法治議題分組由本會主責"},{"start":2351.554,"end":2359.93,"text":"至今陸續由本會、經管會、交通部、數位發展部就其業管範圍提出法規條式規劃並釋出公部門指引"},{"start":2364.793,"end":2391.341,"text":"目前本會正在規劃AI基本法作為我國AI發展的基本行政方針以鼓勵各行各業安全應用AI為目的強化人類自主維護隱私與制裁權透明不歧視等原則本會將發揮跨部會、跨領域的協調角色充分溝通協調我國產業與社會需求"},{"start":2394.397,"end":2417.672,"text":"配合行政院數位政策法制協調專案會議引領各部會推動AI發展所必要的促進措施及法規修正期望在今年10月底前提出草案加速營造友善AI發展及民眾可信賴之AI發展環境未來本會將透過台灣AI行動計畫2.0與精創台灣方案協作"},{"start":2422.775,"end":2444.205,"text":"結合生成式AI與晶片技術．帶動產業創新升級．並運用我國半導體優勢以民生應用為導向．激發百工百業創新動能．構建台灣科技實力以上報告謝謝委員聆聽敬祝各位委員健康平安萬事如意"},{"start":2448.663,"end":2451.428,"text":"好 謝謝吳主委的口頭報告那我們接下來請數位發展部葉次長進行報告報告時間10分鐘"},{"start":2462.912,"end":2485.485,"text":"主席、各位委員今天非常榮幸數位發展部應邀到委員會來這邊針對人工智慧AI的推動現況未來方向進行專題報告請各位委員不吝指教目前AI的發展是已經從早期的演算法到現在的大型語言模型的生成式AI同時會特別著重AI治理數位發展部是依循著台灣AI行動計畫2.0以及晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案等國家政策以及涵蓋"},{"start":2490.168,"end":2504.405,"text":"AI的五大信賴產業的發展以AI產業化跟產業AI化為目標持續地來推動AI應用的發展與管理並打造AI的生態系我們的推動策略可以分為兩個部分第一個部分是AI產業化與產業AI化"},{"start":2506.227,"end":2521.967,"text":"根據台灣AI行動方案的2.0與AI來帶動產業的轉型分級協助增進社會福祉讓台灣成為全球AI的新銳本部將會從人才培育、技術深耕、產業發展及評測等四項措施落實AI產業化及產業AI化"},{"start":2523.829,"end":2544.4,"text":"第二個策略是生成式AI的應用與發展。我們將會以軟體基盤化、應用規模化、生態商業化、合作、國際化等四大策略協助各行各業來導入AI並強化資輔以新創業者、開發AI能力、提升產業競爭力以及軟硬整合的服務能量。"},{"start":2545.39,"end":2569.456,"text":"具體的推動措施可以分為幾個方面以現況來講第一部分是AI的人才培育除了培育AI的應用成人才之外本部會跟國際的大廠合作向下扎根在高中值開設AI的課程更重要的是在企業培訓單位的合作之下開設符合產業需求的課程針對企業實際的問題痛點專案產生實作的AI解題方案"},{"start":2574.597,"end":2598.539,"text":"可以同時達到培育人才同時又能夠促進產業發展的雙重效果。第二個部分是AI的技術工具首先第一個是AI的算力的資源分享我們會建置AI的算力池提供產業高速而且可靠的GPU算力平台環境規劃是在今年的7月開始提供給資服業者來申請使用"},{"start":2599.119,"end":2620.025,"text":"希望可以降低業者在生成式AI以及大型運算模型上的開發成本提升國內AI模型的開發能力第二我們也會開發易於上手的AI工具推膽AI應用實際上是需要非常大的資源以及實踐的投入包括資料收集模型的建立跟應用場景等等那對中小企業來講"},{"start":2621.105,"end":2644.99,"text":"通常會面臨缺資料也缺人力缺資金的問題會不利於AI的普及應用因此本部會投入開發一站式的軟體系統提供企業可以在少量的資料狀況之下也可以發展出AI的解決方案幫助企業節省大量人力時間也降低企業應用AI的門檻快速導入AI的應用第三個部分是AI的應用擴展"},{"start":2646.69,"end":2671.226,"text":"第一個措施是輔導及補助產業AI的應用。我們會成立產業輔導服務團,領選工協會成立產業推動小組,同時推動AI軟硬整合的解決方案,媒合資服業者跟各行各業導入AI技術,同時會進行場域的實證的應用,加速它的落地。第二,"},{"start":2671.866,"end":2700.295,"text":"DigitalPlus的數位創新補助方案．針對AI相關的應用研發及產業擴散．我們會推動AI領航計畫．同時鼓勵企業投入．不管是機器學習．深度學習或是AI等等．開發人工智慧的創新應用方案．導入AI應用促進產業升級轉型．同時我們也希望由企業自主的提案．加入數位服務創新的補助計畫．鼓勵企業來投入．"},{"start":2701.515,"end":2719.062,"text":"第4個是AI評測依循去年剛才主委有提到的行政院數位政策法制協調專案會議的分工在AI法制議題部分由國科會負責在通用的領域部分會由本部來負責AI的評測本部已經參考國際的標準及產業需求"},{"start":2722.924,"end":2726.966,"text":"建構AI的評測工具．成立AI的評測中心．以及訂定AI評測的草案．將陸續成立驗證機構跟實驗室．並針對大型語言模型．包括TEDS．評測項目會涵蓋準確可靠隱私資安等等項目．來完善AI的評測．"},{"start":2742.091,"end":2758.822,"text":"未來的推動措施包括幾個方面第一個方面是生成式AI的應用發展我們會在國科會支持之下針對軟體基盤化、應用規模化、生態商業化及合作國際化等等策略來對應生成式AI的相關的發展"},{"start":2760.323,"end":2780.697,"text":"軟體及基盤化指的是說﹐我們會橋接軟體及各領域的業者﹐同時集結同樣領域的設計經驗的know-how﹐運用國內外的大型元模型的生成式AI﹐協助資服業者開發適用於各行業的AI工具﹐來提升資服產業生成式AI的發展能量﹐"},{"start":2781.477,"end":2805.174,"text":"第二是應用規模化．我們會攜手產業的工協會．挖掘企業痛點跟產業需求．同時為媒合資服業者及新創業者生成是AI的能量．以共同培育產業應用的人才．同時我們會舉辦初解體的競賽機制與落地應用試煉等等推動方案．"},{"start":2806.134,"end":2819.641,"text":"進而研提產業生成式AI應用解決方案跟發展藍圖協助我們產業在生成式AI上面進行數位轉型第三個部分是生態的商業化我們會從培育產業的"},{"start":2821.222,"end":2841.974,"text":"生成式AI應用人才開始．也包括剛剛所提到的出解題競賽及落地應用等等．在這些推動之後．我們會將生成式AI及軟硬整合的解決方案．落地應用於場域．建構成示範的模式．擴散到其他場業商轉推廣．來促進生成式AI生態系的商業化"},{"start":2843.12,"end":2868.569,"text":"第四是合作的國際化．我們會透過與國際大廠的合作．與串聯國際大廠平臺資源跟新興的開發工具．也提升生成是AI開發者的技術能量．並舉辦AI臺灣等等大型的展會．來建立我國跟國際交流合作機會．提升我國AI產業應用的曝光度．協助我們的AI產業成果能夠拓展到海外市場．創造AI產業的產值跟商機"},{"start":2874.95,"end":2890.859,"text":"第二大部分,我們會規劃成立AI生態園區。那AI生態園區的概念,它重點是創建AI的生態系。對於產業而言,實體落地多半是因為市場跟顧客需求的市場導向。例如國外的"},{"start":2891.82,"end":2892.06,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2916.767,"end":2931.12,"text":"不管是資料也好或是剛才所提到的AI應用工具等等也好來促進相關產業的生態的成型生態系的成型那具體的內容以及操作方式我們現在還在跟國家發展委員會來做進一步的討論來定案"},{"start":2933.37,"end":2956.159,"text":"人工智慧發展已經是我國重點發展的這個產業的範疇之一我們現在在半導體跟晶片硬體設備已經造就了AI強大的發展那我本部將會依循我國AI的重大政策強化在軟體應用方面的投入並協助AI的相關產業發展以及我國各行各業的這個AI推動轉型"},{"start":2957.319,"end":2970.183,"text":"在另外一方面在發展AI應用及應用發展的同時也要兼顧可信任的AI發展我們現在輔導產業導入AI的具體個案多半是商業應用等低風險產業"},{"start":2972.344,"end":2994.426,"text":"在這個情況下我們會兼顧產業發展原則之下建構AI評測機構與指引發展評測工具希望也在這個科會所推動的AI基本法框架下跟各目的事業主管機關訂定個別理念應用AI的規範與指引等跨部會的合作共同建構可信任的AI發展環境以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3001.547,"end":3012.47,"text":"好 謝謝葉次長的口頭報告那我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10時30分那委員如果有臨時提案也請於上午10時30分前提出並與本會委員吳春成委員質詢結束後及"},{"start":3029.295,"end":3040.284,"text":"進行處理。處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場,原例不予處理。好,我們首先就請發言登記第一位,彭孟楷委員質詢。主席謝謝,麻煩請吳主委跟次長。葉次長。好,有請吳主委葉次長。"},{"start":3057.495,"end":3084.077,"text":"主委好 主委 次長剛剛本席來聆聽兩位對於這個AI產業的發展跟方向那我想這是一個非常大的命題 所以今天有幾個部分一定要先跟大家來就教我先請教 看到AI啦 台灣最近有這個AI樂 那我們也看到這個輝達的執行長黃仁勳他也在台大有發表專題演講 科技巨頭都到 經濟部長、速發部長也有到場 阿主委你怎麼沒有到"},{"start":3085.734,"end":3107.214,"text":"我因為會議排得滿滿的禮拜天晚上也有會議是是好那你也有全程觀看了對不對我有觀看也有了解他的一些趨勢跟方向我想共同大家都聚焦在這個項目上其中不管是數法部或是國科會都有講到人才的部分那現在本席也看到"},{"start":3108.115,"end":3135.052,"text":"主委唸的這個台大電機系一系翻紅很多人說氣醫科要唸電機啊光台中一中今年上台大電機就比以往的人才暴增了三倍那代表是說現在大家都有看到這個但是本席還是要請教因為我們在教育文化委員會要來了解是說到底我們對於未來假設五年內評估AI這個產業我們需要多少人才有沒有說一個估算過"},{"start":3137.859,"end":3157.538,"text":"AI的產業當然有非常多元的人才的需求當然核心的人才就是在發展AI的基本的理論演算法以及當它要實現的時候背後的半導體硬體架構等等這些都含在裡面"},{"start":3158.759,"end":3182.675,"text":"我想電機系有涵蓋這些範圍是沒錯但是還有第二個非常重要的人才需求是各行各業在使用AI的時候你必須要去熟悉然後了解怎麼去應用這些AI的工具讓我們在各行各業的發展會更有效率會更省人力表現會更好所以有需求多少"},{"start":3184.167,"end":3206.572,"text":"需求是無止境的啊因為我們現在AI的發展只有受限於我們的人類我們地球的資源主委本席跟著您的話您剛講是說AI我們看到你這兩個報導都講是說人才培育很重要本席認同啊但你總是要有一個方向譬如說我們要多少五年內要培育多少的人才那是不是能夠滿足現在一個現況嗎"},{"start":3209.332,"end":3234.585,"text":"即便是現在這個行業非常夯也不可能全部人全都投入到這個行業裡面所以說本席剛才講是說我認同現在所有學校也都需要導入AI的相關的教學那但是到底我們需求有多少我們的需求是如果是在AI的這個基礎的研究我們當然也是受限於現在我們各大學的招生有沒有去評估過啦"},{"start":3237.163,"end":3254.771,"text":"現在招生人數就是我們的人數但是運用的這個領域是沒有限制的主委我們拉回來好不好今天在教育及文化委員會第一我們看任何的問題一定是看到這個產業五年內有什麼樣的狀況缺口有多少"},{"start":3255.311,"end":3269.107,"text":"我們現在也包括說有17所大專業校也都希望有合作夥伴跟這個黃仁勳然後也很多的學校開始開班授課但是這5年我為什麼會講5年就是大學從畢業"},{"start":3270.608,"end":3297.831,"text":"從現在大一新生一直到大四說不定再加入在研究所的部分這五年內可能有產出多少人力來滿足這個缺口那如果說不夠的地方是不是也應該找教育部是不是速發部這邊來去討論是不是有一些學校能夠增設科系還是怎麼樣的一個管理而不是說跟我講說雙手一攤講說有啊就學校現在有在生產啊反正有畢業生啊畢業生來之後就可以滿足那缺口有沒有滿足"},{"start":3299.572,"end":3315.859,"text":"絕口永遠沒有辦法滿足我跟委員報告那永遠沒有辦法 那我們解決辦法是什麼我們就是盡力做阿事實就是如此主委 那這樣子 抱歉我們受限於這個議長我今天這樣子 主委你這答案我真的沒有辦法接受欸"},{"start":3317.284,"end":3344.182,"text":"我是現在我很心平氣和在跟大家請教因為這個AI的議題會是我們未來5年10年所有人都講是說這很重要那如果說我們國科會主委是這個態度我們就盡力做啊我沒有辦法知道我有多少需求啊那這樣大家都不用談了你的計畫出來要立法院來通過應該要有目標、計期程、方向、預計培養多少人才"},{"start":3345.143,"end":3364.291,"text":"甚至本席還要再討論是說學校端我現在看到都屬於學校端的部分那有沒有一般我們已經畢業了社會新鮮人我可能之前我沒有來不及學習到AI但是我現在對於說這樣的一個行業我覺得說有興趣我也希望能夠二度就業轉職我們有沒有相關的計畫去培育人才來去做轉變"},{"start":3369.246,"end":3379.043,"text":"有報告委員那這樣子會有多少人?我們的計畫是什麼?我們的計畫依照經費編列大概4到5千人但是這個是絕對沒有辦法"},{"start":3381.84,"end":3382.04,"text":"您的計畫在哪邊?"},{"start":3405.947,"end":3407.408,"text":"整合的單位是誰?是文國科會?若是科技預算的部分會是"},{"start":3434.878,"end":3438.74,"text":"請問您是?我們科技辦的執密。我不客氣地講,執密你了解的業務都比我們主委來得清楚。謝謝。"},{"start":3456.38,"end":3469.702,"text":"所以本席再來講說實在話我今天其實感到非常遺憾竟然我們是這樣子的一個質詢接下來的這個計畫是不是方便再給本席辦公室一份好不好"},{"start":3475.772,"end":3493.767,"text":"主委我想請教賴金德總統去年競選的時候曾經在新北有提到123的政見不知道您是否了解其中有一個就是針對淡海科學城希望能夠把淡海新市鎮二期的部分土地做開發那這個案件現在是中央主導目前"},{"start":3497.156,"end":3506.936,"text":"經濟部說是跟國科會經濟部有在評估科學園區跟產業園區的可行性現在進度如何?抱歉 這個我還不清楚"},{"start":3508.945,"end":3509.105,"text":"請出場說明"},{"start":3538.004,"end":3559.805,"text":"其實從2020年的時候我們就在講新北淡海新市鎮二期現在有總共差不多135公頃的土地而且它對於2025年淡江大橋完工之後的交通淡海新市鎮來淡通過淡江大橋來巴黎直接105市道到不管是到台北港能夠直接貨運出去或者是說到桃園機場"},{"start":3560.706,"end":3572.26,"text":"也只要短短半個小時的時間所以我們一直在想是說其實這個地方對於不管是產業研究或科技研究都很有幫助但因為主要都是這個是一二期這個是內政部在做主導的這個開發計畫那內政部現在找你說找"},{"start":3577.506,"end":3599.686,"text":"國科會找經濟部那希望是說能夠有明確的一個定位嗎是因為那個剛剛這樣委員提到他的交通位置很重要那未來產業的發展跟新北整個發展是息息相關的所以目前開過很多次會在討論未來產業的定位跟什麼樣的形態開發對這個地方發展是最好的那目前我們有持續在開會討論那我們自己國科會有沒有想法"},{"start":3600.592,"end":3624.569,"text":"因為一樣土地在那邊定位在那邊如果說我們也認為說淡海新市鎮那個地方對於我們整體不管是資源水的部分土地的部分人才的部分都是有所幫助的那我們國科會是不是尤其現在有想就是說中央希望能夠朝綠能跟高科技製造業的方向來進行國科會有沒有想法或是能不能支持"},{"start":3628.004,"end":3643.484,"text":"我必須要回去瞭解一下,國會的想法當然就是...什麼時候可以瞭解?主委給你一個禮拜時間瞭解可以嗎?你給我一個禮拜我就用一個禮拜的這個程度瞭解,你給我一個月我會...那你要多久時間來瞭解?一個月啦,給我一個月啦"},{"start":3644.737,"end":3645.378,"text":"一個月的時間"},{"start":3661.107,"end":3686.713,"text":"一個月的時間你可以給我們地方這是對於地方政府來講或是我們當地的民眾以及整體台灣的產業都是非常有幫助的我了解我們在整個國家各個縣市都需要發展自己特色的產業好 一個月給我們本席及教育文化委員會書面報告可以嗎是 可以好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝洪孟楷委員"},{"start":3690.981,"end":3691.041,"text":"請吳主委"},{"start":3718.127,"end":3737.521,"text":"主委早安委員早主委我想這兩天的新聞你都非常了解但我想問一下剛剛莫凱委員已經問了您還沒有跟黃仁勳碰面那後續會有碰面的計畫嗎因為國科會其實深負責推動台灣AI產業這件事情是非常非常非常重要政策地位那目前國科會有任何規劃嗎"},{"start":3739.498,"end":3754.747,"text":"我沒有跟黃�勳先生碰過面因為他是在美光燈下所有的人都在追求的明星我沒有機會跟他碰面但是Amedia的主要的主管在台灣"},{"start":3755.928,"end":3756.609,"text":"主委您對這件事情有什麼看法?"},{"start":3784.4,"end":3798.94,"text":"我感覺非常光榮對對那你有去了解實務上是即將跟NVIDIA或者是在這個AI產業鏈當中南台科大或是其他大學會扮演什麼樣的角色那國科會在相關議題上又會扮演什麼樣的角色積極跟教育部合作或者是跨部會的討論"},{"start":3800.589,"end":3826.971,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想NVIDIA大家也知道他已經宣布在台灣還要再投資算力甚至會可能會捐贈一部分的算力給我們的學術界所以我們會積極來協助NVIDIA跟我們學術界所有的學校其實也不只是列在這個他投影片上面的啦因為大部分的學校都有學者在使用NVIDIA的這個設備"},{"start":3828.712,"end":3843.946,"text":"在進行相關的不管是AI的研究或它的應用的研究現在都有所以我們會公平的去支持我們的學界積極的來跟NVIDIA合作利用它未來再建設更多的酸液來協助我們的這個科研的發展"},{"start":3844.226,"end":3859.669,"text":"好,到目前為止依然讓人放心也就是說主委我們一般人每光燈確實就看到這14所大學或是16所可是主委你剛剛講到一個非常重要的事情其他的大學有相關算力的需求或者是學術研發的需求國科會當然"},{"start":3860.51,"end":3880.525,"text":"我們同樣都會支持是太好了那我們來看一下你又講到算力了黃仁勳之前呢在相關的訪談上在一個國外的媒體訪談上他提到每個國家我想就不再多念了他提到AI主權但是他在談一件事情也就是他這一次來台灣大力促進的一件事情就是每個國家都需要他們自己的AI工廠瓜胡講的是算力"},{"start":3881.065,"end":3902.212,"text":"算力這件事情其實我覺得是整個AI產業當中最大最大目前我自己盤點完各部會的工作狀態之後我覺得沒有被好好照顧到怎麼說我們來看一下目前從數法部你們跟我們的資料裡面提到你們要建置AI算力池所以數法部你們確實有想到算力這件事情國科會一樣講到算力"},{"start":3904.173,"end":3909.437,"text":"我們來看一下經濟部如同你剛說的他們建了台北ONE已經說要捐贈25%的算力給台灣的中小企業透過經濟部的角度所以已經有三個部會在談算力囉看起來已經有三個部會要投入算力的資源"},{"start":3920.586,"end":3937.559,"text":"除了公部門的資源來我們來看一下民間資源正位集團相關的新聞稿說在年底這個跟日本幼必達合資一樣要蓋一個算力中心前兩天黃仁勳來之後高雄積極爭取鴻海揮打要不要去高雄建制算力中心"},{"start":3938.28,"end":3952.476,"text":"主委有沒有發現民間的力量公部門的力量大家都要投資算力中心我當然現在不會烏鴉嘴的說有沒有可能有一天算力中心變文字館我不知道可是我擔心的是一旦算力及國力"},{"start":3953.257,"end":3961.583,"text":"那我們如何我們公部門政府資源如何看待算力及國力這件事情到底是國科會來主導還是經濟部還是數法部我們來看一下目前我很好奇問國科會你們有沒有認真盤點過往下後續開始規劃有哪些單位有多少單位他們需要算力而這些算力又會被放在哪些層面是產業開發"},{"start":3975.754,"end":3976.034,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":4005.674,"end":4007.095,"text":"國科會負責政府投資建置的算力中心我們會引導民間投資"},{"start":4034.815,"end":4063.247,"text":"引導民間投資可是看起來民間投資如果補助是來自經濟部嘛像我剛剛說的那個鴻海前一個台北灣經濟部就補助了百分之多少的一個比例的金額去投資揮打蓋那個台北灣那個算力中心那如果經濟部負責投資新建廠跟相關的補助那國科會如何引導那如果國科會如何協助學術端他們有相關算力的需求國科會如何協助或者是數發部這邊如何協助因為我覺得在整體的分工看起來"},{"start":4063.727,"end":4064.307,"text":"委員講得非常的好"},{"start":4080.197,"end":4103.893,"text":"國科會一定要結合教育部因為國科會跟教育部是面對我們全國的大學的人力所以在研發在應用發展如果沒有人力你建再多的超級電腦資料中心都沒有用一定要有人力去應用這樣才會展現出國力出來這個我把它定位學術研究的發展學術研究還有應用研究都要做"},{"start":4104.053,"end":4108.495,"text":"學術研究與應用研究在學術界做出來的成果一定要結合到產業,才有辦法落地所以我們會資助經濟部編列相關預算來協助產業能夠接受這些技術把應用把它拓展到各行各業"},{"start":4133.083,"end":4157.823,"text":"聽起來主委您非常有概念也就是您的角色必須要主動發起跨部會的討論對不對好太好了我聽到這個承諾我們辦公室會持續追蹤因為算力這件事情它真的不能就只是放著或是告訴我們買了多少晶片用了多少電我覺得國人最後更關注或者是可能會產生相對剝奪感就是算力這件事情所以我辦公室積極的建議未來針對算力的需求國科會必須要主動盤點剛剛主委您也說了可是盤點必須要系統化科學化的方法"},{"start":4162.447,"end":4189.803,"text":"還有在不同的產業不同的學術研究不同的產業應用研究最後一個我要先提醒目前台灣由公部門投資興建的算力中心相關的應用是不是可以優先滿足台灣國內學術研究跟產業發展為主而不要有變相補貼業者轉賣獲取利益剛剛主委你說了你會跟經濟部跨部會討論這個部分我要拜託主委先行幫忙注意這件事情"},{"start":4190.043,"end":4207.572,"text":"我非常同意委員,我會努力來做這件事好,那我們辦公室會持續追蹤那剛剛洪孟凱委員有一件事情說一個禮拜你說太趕目前這個相關的規劃跟研議我說一個月時間上是可行的嗎?你看一下頭影片我寫很多事情齁好,這個要兩個月好,沒問題"},{"start":4209.613,"end":4227.14,"text":"所以我們幾乎可以認識一件很重要的事情就是在剛剛討論完之後就是算力這件事情不管是學術研究相關盤點後續的規劃您會協同速發部教育部經濟部跟其他相關部會由您國科會來開啟主動相關討論對嗎"},{"start":4230.241,"end":4254.974,"text":"對好謝謝主委謝謝你勇於認識那我們來看一個卓院長說了要以臺灣文化為基底做臺灣自己的語言模型這件事情我們完全認同在多年前臺灣有非常多專家學者也已經提出這個建議目前我們在國科會你們的TIDE模型裡面看到你們用了這些資料合作單位有公部門的也有私部門的像金周刊是私部門公部門很多我不再贅述還有這麼多那我要問一下"},{"start":4256.523,"end":4277.903,"text":"還有很多所謂民間資源主委你有沒有看過這個在北港武德宮財神開祭祖廟他們買了一台人工智慧機器你有沒有看過這個新聞我跟你說他們買來做什麼有人就問說以後是要問神還是要問AI他說沒有啦我們要拿來解經還要解卵文那意思就是說有很多民間衣錦委員笑了這樣"},{"start":4278.704,"end":4299.941,"text":"解禁就是他們有讀那個吳德公有推廣一個叫財神經吳德真經讀起來很能懂他們讓AI去幫忙翻譯解釋給一般人聽還有那個卵文大家知道什麼是卵文他說一般人寫一寫一般人看不懂他們很多師兄師姐解釋花很多力氣他們發現導入AI解讀很有幫助這個是非常台灣在地的文化"},{"start":4301.183,"end":4327.508,"text":"如果我們要發展台灣自己具有在地文化人文關懷精神那這個只是我舉一個例子我沒有真的要叫主委去做這件事情因為您剛剛的這個網頁上放了這些很正式的很官方的資料這個大家完全都可以理解可是我必須要一個更民間的文化來跟主委分享我們如何在台灣這個TED模型當中持續引入台灣本地的關懷跟本地的文化這件事情您是否認同認同"},{"start":4329.048,"end":4329.669,"text":"資料合作單位目前沒有策展概念公務門可以先撈過來"},{"start":4348.988,"end":4372.41,"text":"合作單位可以談的先談過來可是這些資料的用法它到底是在pre-trend階段來用還是SFT階段來用我覺得主委我不知道目前您的幕僚嗎跟你報告目前這些資料的使用還有如果在你們國科會的報告裡面你們提到要進入更專門領域的語言模型對嗎也就是例如說法律經濟或者是教育學"},{"start":4372.79,"end":4398.558,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4398.752,"end":4412.426,"text":"目前的狀況是因為我們第一年是我們要先把沒有那個版權爭議的我們都先抓過來先抓過來對然後維護隱私權等等不能侵犯是這些資料我們先做但是未來我們接下來會進入推廣的階段"},{"start":4414.168,"end":4434.579,"text":"推廣階段我們就會廣泛的在各行各業各個應用領域我們會有更多的訓練資料就會進來做各個別的不同的專業用途所以委員講的是非常對這個會非常非常花時間而且也很需要專業的人力來協助所以我才會寫SFT Data這件事情我相信主委你一定非常清楚所以我積極的建議"},{"start":4435.68,"end":4449.786,"text":"目前在選定資料提供的合作單位拜託有更全面的規劃不管是專業性的或是通用性的甚至在國科會的報告裡面你們自己提到還要做多模態AI這件事情他非常非常持資料量對嗎?"},{"start":4450.706,"end":4474.514,"text":"好那這件事情我們如何採用本地的資料有效迅速而且可信度高這件事情我相信是重要還有相關的授權法規但聽起來主委您已經知道了相關智慧產權的授權相關的權益還有跟各個專業領域合作因為國科會絕對可以找到非常多專業的學術單位積極的願意提供資料為進我們的目前這個台灣Data這個模型當中對嗎是"},{"start":4475.854,"end":4493.525,"text":"好,但是必須要積極的規劃而不是給資料採集小組他們只是隨機的去做最後拜託資料品質的確保這件事情我們目前有沒有投入資源去規劃有資料品質我們非常注重我們不會用假資料那相關的資源跟規劃是什麼如何再一次確保那個資料品質欸這個我們是透過瑞格嗎還是"},{"start":4498.664,"end":4499.525,"text":"主席吳祖偉及林次長"},{"start":4526.971,"end":4528.973,"text":"好,有請吳朱偉業次長委員好"},{"start":4537.802,"end":4558.371,"text":"主委好主委我想這個任何的事情一定都是一體兩面的那我們現在AI這麼高速的一個發展誠如上一次吳組委我們在這個質詢的過程當中您有舉了一個例子說就像這個刀可以用來做菜也許也可以做其他的那我們看到其實在這一次我們民進黨政策會的執行長王一川有說他說"},{"start":4559.831,"end":4589.131,"text":"這個可以用GT台的訊號來查看民眾是否有這個足跡堆疊的一個大數據那這個新聞家一出來我想不知道這個主委有沒有follow但是會弄得這個全國人心惶惶大家都很擔心是不是有遭到監控那但是今天要討論的不是這件事情因為本期更加擔心的是如果AI的發展假設被有心人來利用恐怕會侵犯這個個資還有個人的隱私的情況他其實會更加的嚴重這樣的一個說法我的這個看法我不曉得兩位同意嗎"},{"start":4590.532,"end":4597.839,"text":"您知道現在其實已經可以透過AI來監控電腦或者是應用軟體而且可以獲得了個人的資料跟隱私了嗎?主委您的意思是說現在無法透過AI來監控?"},{"start":4615.192,"end":4615.372,"text":"市長市長"},{"start":4623.464,"end":4644.685,"text":"就我的了解就是所謂的個人資料的跟個人資料儲存環境有關那他資訊系統通常會設定一些權限那從我們部的立場來看的話所謂的從資安的角度來看個人資料的儲存跟他的整個沒有我本身問題很簡單阿現在您認為是可以還是不可以就您所知要看他在應用的做得到還是做不到"},{"start":4645.825,"end":4665.299,"text":"如果這個資料庫是開放的 那不用AI也搜尋得到 那如果這個資料有設定良好的儲存權限以及它的這個加密的措施 不見得可以搜尋得到我想兩位一起 根據媒體的報導 我們看到全球有22%的企業是以AI來監控員工的活動數據"},{"start":4666.64,"end":4681.358,"text":"有17%可以監控員工的電腦使用16%則可以記錄員工的電郵所以連全球最大電商亞馬遜、星巴克、達美航空、雀巢等等這些大企業都可以透過AI新創公司來監控員工"},{"start":4683.139,"end":4701.605,"text":"不管是監控他們的動態、聊天記錄或是計算績效等等有不同的一個監控的方向但是雖然AI的新創公司都說它這個分析它是一個匿名的數據但是用以上這樣來看我想主委先請教您一下您認為這樣的監控有沒有侵犯隱私權或是違反個資法"},{"start":4703.599,"end":4706.541,"text":"市長,您的看法呢?就如剛才蘇薇所說的,這其實如果涉及到勞動條件的部分,那這恐怕要看勞動條件法規而定"},{"start":4726.296,"end":4742.685,"text":"所以現在二位的意思是說只要內規有內規這個自己規定我們就可以無上去去監控員工是這樣嗎這個當然是所以要說清楚嘛是雇主跟員工簽訂的所以這個我們應該可以理解"},{"start":4744.086,"end":4757.023,"text":"主委、次長,我想再請教一下所以台灣的企業我們是不是一樣可以在您剛剛所上述的條件之下可以用AI來監控員工這第一個問題第二個部分我們工部門是不是也可以這樣來做用AI來監控我們公務人員的電腦,可以嗎?"},{"start":4759.056,"end":4775.042,"text":"我們首先要說明的就是說剛才這邊所看到的資料所謂的監控或是針對員工的活動都是指他在職場場域使用公用的系統跟電腦那他所從事他職務上的行為並不包括他私人生活在裡面"},{"start":4776.102,"end":4796.948,"text":"市長,我想您剛剛所說的,它是公務上的一個公務使用,然後再來電腦雖然是企業或是公務的一個機關資產,但我們知道其實有很多的網頁或的程式,它其實都是需要去登入一些個人的資料,所以在AI監控員工的電腦,不管您認為這個監控能不能接受,但是它已經是一個全面性的一個蒐集這個數據,"},{"start":4799.15,"end":4812.182,"text":"如果是在一個沒有告知或者同意的情況之下根據我國個人資料保護法的規定其實已經有觸法的疑慮了所以我是想目前你們看到的可能是比較淺層面但是未來發展之後"},{"start":4815.044,"end":4821.011,"text":"會怎樣去在監控上面去觸法的疑慮或者是說將來有視空的狀態我想國科會跟訴發部是不是應該都要就本席今天提醒能夠再回去做一些研究那同時"},{"start":4830.482,"end":4846.765,"text":"我們都在講說有很多地方他其實可能匿名啊都有保護啊可是根據美國紐約大學AI NOW的研究所的報告顯示這個資訊給讓你看一下即使數據是彙整在一起或者是一個匿名的可是在保護的這個隱私上面他們認為仍然是有缺陷的"},{"start":4847.685,"end":4875.119,"text":"在1990年美國人口普查數據做的研究AI只有透過由地區號、出生日期跟性別它就可以辨識出87%的美國人而且歐美企業使用AI監控員工其實也引發了相關對於AI侵犯隱私權的疑慮所以我想這樣的疑慮我們也不能輕忽它也不能太胸有成竹跟自信我們除了擔憂AI會侵害人權之外我們也擔心未來AI技術的"},{"start":4875.879,"end":4877.66,"text":"我們有沒有跟國科會做橫向的一個溝通跟合作?"},{"start":4901.537,"end":4920.204,"text":"我們一直當然都跟國科會保持密切合作首先我們非常同意剛才委員的說法即便企業要對員工的職務上的行為作為有所了解的話他也要完全符合各自法的規定譬如說他必須充分的告知跟同意第二AI剛剛我們所提到的"},{"start":4920.384,"end":4920.864,"text":"吳主委,我想您有說"},{"start":4942.112,"end":4956.047,"text":"您希望在10月就會想辦法把AI基本法草案送進行政院嗎?是上次有講但是我想這個AI不管是在我剛剛本席所講的詐騙上面監控上面甚至於將來有可能侵害到民眾的個資、隱私我想未來只會有更加嚴重的狀況所以針對AI的濫用我想國科會在AI基本法當中"},{"start":4963.015,"end":4975.144,"text":"是不是應該要做一些清楚的歸辦跟納入這一點我想提醒吳主委在這個草案送上來之前我想要強加研究好不好那接下來我再一提一樣是請教一下吳主委我想這個黃仁勛來台這個旋風那當然您還沒跟他見面了也在想辦法應該要跟他見一見"},{"start":4981.93,"end":5000.31,"text":"但是不管是他啦或者是這個超維啦等等都有要在台灣來做更多的一些研發中心的設立啦等等啦那不曉得您認為這一些這一連串這些旋風有助於這個AI的這個科技成果但是有沒有辦法運用在民生讓全民共享"},{"start":5001.209,"end":5028.107,"text":"我們正在努力做這件事剛剛前面委員也有問到這個問題所以除了在算力的建置人才培育上面我們要努力之外我本期有感受到您正在努力但是我們來討論一下上一週本期質詢的時候主委說當前的AI應用仍然有相當的距離那我們要循序漸進那我們看到107年我們推動四年期的台灣AI行動計畫全面要啟動AI產業化您應該清楚對不對"},{"start":5031.329,"end":5045.196,"text":"好那根據112年國家數位發展研究報告指出我國採用智慧居家相關服務有很多的部分很多的項目不升反降如智慧家電109年15%降到112年剩下11%那智慧照顧的部分也從109年的14%往下降一樣來到這個112年13%所以為什麼"},{"start":5054.301,"end":5083.297,"text":"我們看到這個AI科技的應用上面其實越推其實越退步這第一個第二個在一到國科會2022年台灣AI國力的調查那這一點比較重要公部門的AI成熟度的等級竟然只有3.3排名排序在倒數第三所以其實賴總統說要推這個AI之道那我們看到公部門其實還跟不上所以不管是我們剛剛說的應用在民生上面還有公部門看起來我們都沒有跟上腳步這兩個部分能不能請主委回答一下"},{"start":5085.879,"end":5093.678,"text":"我們會努力做就這麼簡單一句話能不能告訴我一下為什麼我們在科技應用上面會越退越退步 什麼原因"},{"start":5095.066,"end":5121.376,"text":"我們整個公部門全國的公務機關的其實那個預算也相當的沉重我們將來希望按照委員的建議我們希望增加能夠推動不是只有產業AI化在政府AI化的部分我們也希望能夠開啟一些新的方案來協助他們"},{"start":5123.357,"end":5138.105,"text":"主席,我想我可以接受因為我看你講這兩題講得真的好勉強喔那這個也不要再為難你喔但是呢我希望會後針對我們剛剛說的AI科技的應用這個不升反降比例不升反降還有我們公部門的這個狀況會後還是給我一個報告好不好"},{"start":5140.466,"end":5146.747,"text":"最後我想行政院在今年推動AI的這個我們剛說的AI行動方案2.0期程是要在2023到2026那這整個願景是希望能夠帶動產業升級還有增進社會福祉讓台灣成為全球AI的一個新銳可是你看我們從107年我們開始推動AI然後我們在所有報告當中看到所有的數據不升反降請問一下這樣的一個計畫我們是要怎麼去"},{"start":5168.173,"end":5171.185,"text":"去增進社會福祉這一條這你能跟我簡單說明一下嗎?"},{"start":5173.431,"end":5198.818,"text":"我們要增進社會福祉的部分就是希望不是只有在AI的我們現在是主要是在AI的硬體的產業不是只有這個產業一直往前衝那我們希望說第一建置台灣自己的算力可以擴展AI在台灣的應用不是只有在幫國外幫國際來貢獻而已所以這個政策我們現在正在扭轉然後慢慢會把"},{"start":5199.558,"end":5216.113,"text":"應用到各行各業的這樣的這個算力以及人力會把它增加主委我想有一些資料您會後提供給我但是本期最後提醒我想科技發展跟科技應用一樣重要我們希望齊同並進一起加油是同意謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝萬美玲委員主委請回好我們接下來請葉淵芝委員"},{"start":5231.732,"end":5234.934,"text":"麻煩請國會主委,謝謝好,有請吳主委委員好主委好,今天主委我們討論AI嘛那因為這個AI旋風當然就是黃榮勳引起嘛不曉得主委,國會最近有沒有跟黃榮勳接觸有沒有我本來沒有跟他接觸過那國會有嘛國會有那大概是怎麼樣的接觸,談什麼議題"},{"start":5255.123,"end":5265.715,"text":"國會當然是透過環環星的公司就是輝達他們在台灣的總經理有拜訪國科會所以我們有討論過那你們討論什麼議題討論輝達在台灣的這個投資可能未來的發展"},{"start":5273.204,"end":5293.872,"text":"他們在台灣的投資他自己有宣布了就是目前的這個研發中心他會再擴大那可能會捐贈部分的這個算力來協助台灣的學術研究那大概可以會在台灣增加多少投資因為我看那個研發中心是會超過243億那其他的投資大概多少"},{"start":5294.212,"end":5323.259,"text":"他現在初步的這個講法是還在規劃當中我們在討論的過程當中本來是要了解到他要捐贈的設備的這個規格但是因為這個發展太快速了所以他們現在還在衡量應該用什麼樣的規格那個時間點也許會落在明年那還要再找適當的地點那現在有幾個地方他在考慮當中目前就是"},{"start":5324.219,"end":5341.842,"text":"對,我也想要問主委這個問題他是說在台灣是第二座研發中心那目前我看新聞是說九個縣市都在爭取包括我所在新北市也有相關的優勢因為惠達有43個供應廉的廠商大概有十幾家都在新北,算是最多"},{"start":5343.344,"end":5357.699,"text":"新竹也說自己很有優勢,它有竹科,也在台積電附近,高雄好像也有優勢主委以國科會的角度,你覺得臺灣這些縣市要爭取第二座研發中心哪一個條件你覺得比較適合?"},{"start":5359.317,"end":5382.746,"text":"賴總統有提過說臺灣均衡發展這個事情所以各縣市在發展特色的產業有足夠的這個基礎的有提供很好的這個條件我們從國會的角度來看我們都會盡量來協助他們所以你沒有特別去判定說誰比較有條件就對了目前還沒有我們會尊重揮打他的選擇因為跟他的這個產業發展也有關係"},{"start":5385.067,"end":5402.166,"text":"主委其實我問這個問題當然另外也是想要表達一件事情就是說我們要發展AI啦我們盡量跟這些比較成就的產業合作會事半功倍啦我現在就想要舉一個我們國科會自己研發的一個所謂的深層式AI叫TAIDE嘛"},{"start":5402.807,"end":5406.089,"text":"為何當時要做本土深層式AI呢?有兩個目的,一個目的是要保護本土文化"},{"start":5420.36,"end":5449.48,"text":"因為覺得現在坊間的或是其他產業所做的深層式AI好像會太多簡體字會侵害到我們的本土的文化價值觀這是其中一個目的第二個目的當然就是發展我們自主人才啦兩個目的但是這個花了3億元做的我們的深層式AI其實有很多問題首先全世界沒有其他國家有以國家為主體發展的深層式AI"},{"start":5450.541,"end":5463.761,"text":"日本也是用CHAP GPT再來就是第二你們現在這個深圳市AI說已經可以跟CHAP GPT 3.5相當"},{"start":5465.663,"end":5487.273,"text":"但CHAP GPT現在已經到4歐了啦已經有點跟不上了那還有一個問題就是它的使用率使用率呢你們國會會有把它放在工程師開放的平台讓人家下載喔大概下載的量是3萬下載不代表它有用喔有的只是下載來看一看才3萬"},{"start":5488.868,"end":5510.669,"text":"那你們內部的使用大概可能國會內部的相關單位用大概才600餘次而已那甚至於連民進黨地方政府台南市市長黃偉哲也是民進黨籍的他都說他要用CHAP GPT深層式AI來做輔助的學習平台結果連他都不捧場"},{"start":5511.67,"end":5535.652,"text":"所以我現在的問題就是我們現在國科會還需要繼續做這件事嗎?因為感覺上它的使用率普及率也很低然後它的所謂的標準現在也不如CHAP GPT那如果標準越差越大的話那當然大家就要用CHAP GPT啊誰要回過頭來用國科會做的東西那現在已經花3億元了"},{"start":5536.551,"end":5560.303,"text":"接下來如果要迎頭趕上其他國家或其他的企業所做的這種AI的話你勢必要花更多的錢所以我不曉得說主委你的態度是怎樣我們其實目標並不是在跟現在通用型的這些AI的model來競爭我們的目標其實是把既有的既有的這些AI的model把它"},{"start":5561.531,"end":5589.599,"text":"在地化的意思就是說我們應用在台灣各行各業的時候那個資料必須要準確要能夠把模型在優化所以在地的訓練可以讓我們在台灣各行各業發展的時候可以做得更有效率然後在運算的時候更省電因為我們不用使用那個非常大型的通用型的模型所以這個工作我們接下來在應用的時候我們會注重"},{"start":5590.379,"end":5606.586,"text":"去把它擴散出去所以目前的展示的幾個項目只是一個例子而已只是一些例子而已我們的目標倒不是要去取代不是取代問題是現在使用率很低嘛而且花了很多錢嘛因為我們剛剛建設完接下來預計還要花多少錢做這個東西接下來我們的計畫現在的規劃還要預計要花多少錢做這個東西"},{"start":5615.743,"end":5643.539,"text":"我想預算的項目我們再確認一次大概3億左右還要再花3億希望達到什麼樣的目標我跟委員解釋一下他們所謂的使用CHAT GPT他們是使用雲端的當我們需要資料是有隱私保護的時候我們是沒有辦法上雲那我們發展台的目的就是希望能夠協助台灣的企業能夠保護他們自己的企業的隱私所以我們協助這個產業來發展"},{"start":5644.94,"end":5647.703,"text":"主委,您知道我們國科會在史丹佛大學有成立一個Taiwan Science and Technologyology Hub?"},{"start":5667.711,"end":5694.703,"text":"花了1億元,數位知道這個事嗎?我知道這個事那你知道這個1億元是用在什麼地方嗎?我看了你們給我的資料,非常的簡單那我就看到你們去參加了兩場的國際研討會然後去參加了一個展覽然後其他的費用就用在史丹佛的這個HUB辦公室以及就是獎學金就花了1億元,一年就花了1億元請問一下這個HUB的效益是什麼啊?"},{"start":5695.646,"end":5717.038,"text":"我可以請我們柯國處長 來羅處長 我有個問題想問羅處長因為我們每一次跟國科會要資料都給的非常簡單 愛寫不寫的 就像我問說這1億元用在哪裡 只有給我三行字 子偉你覺得國科會給委員資料1億元三行字這樣OK嗎"},{"start":5719.83,"end":5746.241,"text":"包括委員,這可能有誤會的地方,到時候我們再進行報告什麼叫到時候,每次都是在委員會那邊敷衍然後處長我給你請教一下當我在要資料的時候你人在台灣嗎?你人在台灣嗎?包括委員因為上一次剛好人在矽谷你人在矽谷,跟你的科長在矽谷嗎?對不對?主教一下處長跟科長在矽谷幹嘛?培前任的國會主委去嘛"},{"start":5747.569,"end":5773.166,"text":"是出席一個那個胡佛研究所的一個有關於研討好那是不是就跟這個Stanford這個什麼Hub有關是有關係有關是不是是請你我今天因為時間不夠請你補一份完整的資料給我到底這一億元是用在哪裡我會很有錢我知道但這錢不是這樣亂花的你這一億元到底有沒有達到效益是另外你這個Hub裡面你有一些獎學金對吧"},{"start":5774.298,"end":5791.426,"text":"獎學金一個人是7萬美金對不對結果這個7萬美金的獎學金的這個學生呢你是補助他到史丹佛做工作對不對做研究有沒有要求他做完研究之後一定要回國服務有沒有"},{"start":5793.052,"end":5819.518,"text":"做完研究的時候學員的話我們會追蹤你會追蹤他不回來沒關係嘛然後我們辦公室跟你要資料就是說到底你的權利義務你補助的獎學金的權利義務是什麼你不給我你說那個合約是學生跟史丹佛簽的所以今天我們給錢給學生學生去跟史丹佛簽約所有權務義務都由史丹佛來決定那我們國會會是很有錢喔"},{"start":5822.469,"end":5847.508,"text":"我們都不能追蹤欸我們都不能夠了解我們納稅人的錢到底花在哪裡欸國會會議是有這麼多錢是這樣子亂用的喔連一個效益評估都講不出來我也非常好奇處長你一直出國你到底效益是什麼啦你的處長跟科長一天到晚出國假國際研討會之名到底做了什麼事你要不要一併把報告給我"},{"start":5849.775,"end":5875.996,"text":"有關於這個預算的使用以及那個成效這一部分我們會後會提供報告供委員參考會後提供報告不要會後又是幾行字我們都拿太多次每次在這邊問會後提供報告幾行字敷衍主委因為您剛來新人新氣象過去我們幾個月跟國會互動就是這樣每次都這樣委員會質詢什麼東西都講不清楚會後提供資料會後提供資料就是三言兩語然後再下一次再來委員會問"},{"start":5877.713,"end":5877.973,"text":"吳佩奕委員"},{"start":5914.029,"end":5933.079,"text":"謝謝主席,我請國科會主委好,有請吳處委,謝謝委員好主委,每次因為委會諮詢時間相對短今天像只有8分鐘有時候委員會需要你們提供資料有沒有委員跟你們要資料不提供的情況?"},{"start":5935.186,"end":5944.975,"text":"應該沒有啦只要跟公務相關的不分黨派我們都要來說明清楚但是非屬公務相關的資料也不要隨便提供這是你們的職責那這個今天我們國科會跟數法部這個AI的專題報告"},{"start":5951.801,"end":5969.38,"text":"其實對我來說非常的重要它不只是一次的專題報告因為AI已經是我們人類發展的未來而台灣是AI發展當中非常重要的國家也就是說我們國科會所負責的人工智慧未來的發展其實是我們台灣未來關鍵的國力是"},{"start":5972.443,"end":5992.13,"text":"所以希望你們要非常慎重來看待那這也是賴清德總統非常重視的政策那這幾天呢我們在台灣正在舉辦Computex所以有很多的大廠可以說是大咖雲集在台灣那我在你們的報告當中也看到了AI行動計畫裡面有提到我們要來提升國際的影響力具體來說我們怎麼樣來提升國際影響力"},{"start":5999.829,"end":6025.466,"text":"大家也看得到我們這次Computex全世界重要的AI相關的國際大廠全部都來了那代表台灣現在是在AI的核心的一個國家我們的AI硬體的製造從半導體一直在到這個雲端資料中心的機房到超級電腦所有這些設備大部分都是台灣製造的所以我們在國際化的這個製造"},{"start":6028.948,"end":6057.018,"text":"產業鏈已經是變成是一個中心點接下來我們要做的事情就是要把這個非常寶貴的這個資源把它擴散到其他的行業擴散到其他行業幫助我們其他的行業各行各業也能夠創造出未來在全球化在應用服務上面各個傳統產業更為升級變成智慧產業變成是一個全球在供應鏈上面更為成熟的一個國家"},{"start":6057.498,"end":6063.499,"text":"是,所以呢我們當然也會希望吸引這些大廠來台灣設廠那最近就是輝達已經表明了要在台灣再設一個擴大的研發中心包括了台北、高雄、台南都在爭取那雖然高雄黃捷委員是我好朋友但是呢我們台北市長蔣萬安市長也開口爭取了那以我們剛剛講到的這個國際影響力其實我認為台北是一個非常適合的城市因為台北當然是我們台灣對國際最重要的一個窗口"},{"start":6086.184,"end":6093.767,"text":"人才也是非常重要的要件黃仁勳執行長也說了要有夜市講到夜市我們台北也不會輸所以我希望國科會的角色你們當然不是第一線每一個縣市都要憑自己的條件努力的去爭取一旦未來如果輝達研發中心在台北落腳我希望我們國科會要給予最大的協助可不可以"},{"start":6111.719,"end":6129.121,"text":"我賴總統有講過就是均衡台灣我們各個縣市我們都會支持只要是在發展特色特別是應用的產業特色的產業各縣市都有那國科會秉持我們中央政府協助地方的角色我們一定都會來協助大家"},{"start":6130.502,"end":6141.01,"text":"接下來要非常關心也就是我們的AI基本法那很高興的看到我們報告當中我們有一個很大的進展目前我們的AI基本法是預計10月就要來提出來"},{"start":6143.667,"end":6165.92,"text":"目前有沒有一個方向?我們在這個AI基本法的部分我們有一個有一個初步的版本已經出來了我們今天下午就會開第一場的跟產業的專家的這個諮詢大家一起來討論說這個內容是不是合適那我們在這個月我們會辦三場包含產業界包含學術界"},{"start":6168.001,"end":6188.874,"text":"包括各部會、各部會的溝通還有法人、機構還有甚至到我們的人權團體我們也都會邀請來制定一個比較平衡的兼顧人權也兼顧我們產業發展的是因為AI禁辦法其實討論許久其中一個重點就是它的相關規範跟指引尤其是我們對於風險的管理"},{"start":6190.695,"end":6202.745,"text":"如何管理風險但不能扼殺到產業所以我看我們政院其實過去國家智慧小組也開了好幾次的會也跟民間有諮詢的會議其中有給我們建議說應該要可以來參考國際AI安全峰會其中的布萊切利宣言裡面的一些基本的原則有沒有也在我們這次基本法的內容當中有 這個我們都有參考"},{"start":6214.674,"end":6233.054,"text":"因為風險管理是其中一個非常重要的成分都在我們基本法的這個設計中我想這非常的重要尤其是我們剛剛有講到是我們自己政府部門相關的機關我們會不會參考美國聯邦政府新的AI指引就是要求各機關要有指定的專責人AI的人員來協助"},{"start":6236.037,"end":6255.645,"text":"謝謝委員 這部分我們也把它納進來也在我們的基本法內容當中好 那我們非常的期待AI的基本法在今年就可以來提出我們也非常的支持那接下來是兩天前有一個新聞也就是我們在講AI的風險不知道主委有沒有注意到英國正在進行大選那BBC有一個報導他們發現在TikTok上面有利用AI來進行的這個影片"},{"start":6263.388,"end":6277.445,"text":"的內容是是利用真人看起來是這個政治人物講的話裡面可能涉及到對了移工跨性別的權利等等非常錯誤偏差式的評論而這是完全是虛假的訊息"},{"start":6278.466,"end":6306.08,"text":"甚至還有利用這個真人的影像政黨的領袖來讓他唱一首歌也是先涉及到主題是關於青年來從事軍事軍隊這樣的主題所以可以說是在英國正在發生的是AI的虛假訊息正在介入選舉所以我們對於這樣子的AI的虛假訊息也沒有相對應的這個技術來反制例如說我們怎麼樣來辨識這些影片"},{"start":6308.254,"end":6328.074,"text":"是,我們數位發展部剛剛有提到他們也在發展相關的反制的這個技術利用AI來反制這種假訊息或者是這個詐騙所以我們目前是有這樣的技術有這樣的技術正在研究當中還是已經完成正在建制當中"},{"start":6329.575,"end":6349.053,"text":"我們在AI基本法也會希望能夠把這一類的基本的人權因為這是民眾是生物痛覺的這些事情希望在AI基本法也有適當的宣示黃線在什麼地方防治AI生神已變的假訊息我想這未來會是一個跨部會"},{"start":6350.234,"end":6366.185,"text":"的工作是涉及到法務部警政署訴訟發布相關的所以請你們務必這是一個正在發生當中的事情尤其我們現在基本法也要來提出了請我們務必要有相關的行政工作準備是謝謝委員好那最後我非常想要關心在報告當中是我們的AI教育我們也要向下扎根其中有提到"},{"start":6371.889,"end":6386.171,"text":"不只是高等教育要有能夠來協助學生有未來相關產業的這個培訓我們的國民教育現在你們AI第一期高中時你們已經有在進行AI扎根了嘛那未來國中國小我們預計來怎麼樣來做"},{"start":6388.61,"end":6413.541,"text":"國中小這一部分我還沒有跟教育部討論但是我有預計要跟教育部來討論這個事情我們當然也是希望說能夠讓我們的小朋友從小就認識到AI的正面的這個對我們的幫助以及它可能會造成的威脅讓我們的小朋友從小就了解它的正負面的這個狀況然後在教育上來引導他們將來往好的地方去發展"},{"start":6414.481,"end":6427.745,"text":"主委,我覺得非常重要第一期我們已經有在高等教育有很不錯的成果那第二期我們要更加的向下扎根高中職、國中、國小我們趕快來跟教育部討論把這個規劃把它準備出來好不好謝謝委員,我們會照做好,謝謝主席好,謝謝吳佩奕委員主委請坐那我們再來請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":6442.217,"end":6448.723,"text":"主席 請國科會吳主委及書房部葉次長好 有請吳主委葉次長委員好"},{"start":6452.921,"end":6473.291,"text":"早安,諸位行政院在2018到2021有推出了一個台灣AI的行動計畫那在這個同時呢我們國科會的前身科技部呢也擬定了以AI小國大戰略來推了個五個推展的策略從2017到2021也投入了160億的經費那其中有50億呢是有建置一個國家級的AI雲端服務及高速算的這個平台"},{"start":6483.036,"end":6485.139,"text":"在2018年我們啟用的台灣山2號那在當時是排名全球第20強也是能源效率第10高的超級電腦但是在5年後的今天台灣山的這個排名已經滑落到第72"},{"start":6500.46,"end":6516.249,"text":"現役的超級電腦設備已經比較老舊了 這個算力也急需的擴充對於算力的需求 其實我們數法部這邊也說會提供AI技術共享來建立一個AI的算力池那對於這個算力提升及設備的升級 國會會現在有什麼新的規劃"},{"start":6518.942,"end":6540.209,"text":"我們逐步會提升這個算力的建制就是在公部門我們政府的投資的部分我們現在的這個算力大概只有9個Pedal Flops我們預計逐步提升到4年以後4年以後我們希望提升到200個Pedal Flops所以我們要提升到200的這個峰秒速度每秒的峰值速度那預計是要4年的時間嗎?"},{"start":6545.74,"end":6550.859,"text":"是因為我們預算還是有限是礙於預算還是因為技術"},{"start":6552.766,"end":6580.103,"text":"其實裡面也有風險因為AI的這個進步非常的快今天這麼大的這個算力的這個需求是來自於生成式AI但是我們了解的是生成式AI的這個做法其實是非常沒有效率的它可以利用算力展現出很好的成果但是它其實是耗費非常非常多的能源所以我們還有很多其他的限制包含我們的基礎建設要同步搭配還有我們的人才的培育也要跟著上來"},{"start":6581.363,"end":6599.054,"text":"人才培育這是另外一個部分,現在本席是針對說我們這個設備的升級,那本來剛才卓文林講了說要用4年的時間來升級到200的這個每秒峰值速度提升到200,要用4年,那如果可以有更快的"},{"start":6601.256,"end":6617.269,"text":"提升嗎?四年時間會不會太長?因為這個四年的時間可能發生很多的變化。是,報告委員像輝達他剛剛宣布的新的這個晶片其實它的效能就提升很多所以我們預計每年因為台灣的協助台灣半導體的這個進步"},{"start":6619.07,"end":6643.462,"text":"以及電子設備製造廠的能力我們每年都會把硬體運算的能力大幅提升所以我們現在在估計未來的投資的時候也不能夠太為大膽因為技術的變化很快所以我們會逐步的來檢討我們台灣不論是進一步的發展AI的技術還是要確保說我們能夠逐步的跟上AI的浪潮"},{"start":6644.383,"end":6658.623,"text":"我們提供這個足夠的資源提供這個足夠的這樣子演算的這個能力都需要有這樣的算力來支撐那剛才其實也有委員像裴委員也非常關心說到底這個算力我們自己本身的估算跟我們的技術能不能跟上來"},{"start":6660.565,"end":6671.248,"text":"要建構這個AI的研發平台有效的整合國內資源這個部分我們希望提供能夠共享共用的這個高運算的這個環境讓整個產業跟整個研究的這個量能夠提升上來所以這個部分也請說我們既然已經有定了這個目標往這個目標再前進的也希望說是不是能夠在自己能夠再評估說到底要多少的這個算力才能夠足夠支撐我們整個這個現在科研所需要的這個持續的發展"},{"start":6689.514,"end":6690.595,"text":"除了說政府公部門之外其實民間的力量也要加進來接下來我要請教隨著AI技術的發展"},{"start":6707.588,"end":6707.928,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6723.524,"end":6742.026,"text":"那在AI應用來處理個人的數據的時候尤其是說是人臉辨識或是行為預測這個領域也不自覺的會侵犯到個人的隱私喔那在這個部分我要請教次長喔如何在創新跟隱私的保護中找到平衡點我們現在對這些的規範我們已經有沒有一開始在著手規劃"},{"start":6744.372,"end":6771.917,"text":"謝謝委員給我們回答的機會首先我們非常同意委員指出的這一點就是說在深層式AI之下的確內容的真偽越來越難辨識那我們基本上有兩個方法來進行第一個我們要確保它的來源的真實性包括我們的簡訊的短碼也好或是短網址也好或是將來我們會推動社群平台上的廣告它必須採取實名制也就確保它的來源的真實性"},{"start":6772.737,"end":6797.635,"text":"第二,部長提出我們會在近期之內運用AI及機器學習的數據方式來建立一個詐騙的通報查詢網讓民眾有更多的資源能夠去辨別真偽最快的時間拿到正確的資訊那這樣的情況下即便還是有偽造的內容但是不容易造成他"},{"start":6798.575,"end":6815.126,"text":"所以我們在這個整個辨識的這個技術上還有相關的法規上我們都已經有這樣子在著手研議嗎?對 有些已經做好了比如說政府機關所使用的一一的這個簡訊平台已經建置完畢而且現在各個機關都開始使用了"},{"start":6816.579,"end":6827.811,"text":"我請教一下我們主委我們國科會這邊有發布了行政院跟所屬機關的這個生成式AI的參考指引"},{"start":6828.888,"end":6846.337,"text":"那我們是發布了指引之後就跟你們無關還是我們其實有在做查核?各機關在使用這些所謂的這些深層式AI的這些相關的這個有沒有照著我們的指引還是說我們發布之後就跟我們無關?"},{"start":6846.857,"end":6871.96,"text":"我們現在是提供參考各部會會因為應急啦現在是民眾的需求但是現在我們開始要制定一些作用法的時候我們現在AI基本法也同部會跟各部會一起來溝通形成一個比較完整的這個法制式那我的意思就是說我們有在做查核嗎查核目前還沒有還沒有沒有相關人力還是說本身還沒有做到這個部分"},{"start":6874.259,"end":6891.691,"text":"跟委員報告實際上來講話我們指引是一個就是行政院通用給所有各機關他們根據這個指引來做他內部的一些要用甚至是AI的時候的依據對所以現在來講話很多機關呢像監管會"},{"start":6892.432,"end":6914.36,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":6914.36,"end":6915,"text":"主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席"},{"start":6933.855,"end":6949.164,"text":"其實在我們的質疑裡面有規定說各機關使用生成式AI作為執行業務或提供服務的輔助工具的時候應該要適當的揭露那主委您知道有哪些機關有在使用生成式AI?您知道嗎?"},{"start":6952.107,"end":6970.262,"text":"我沒有盤點過那像現在有在推廣的像有特定功能的AR機器人包括口試機器人、教案撰寫機器人或是教師評語撰寫機器人是這樣機器人能使用主委您支持嗎?我們要如何確保公正跟無誤呢?對這一部分應該公部門還沒有正式使用"},{"start":6973.19,"end":6992.025,"text":"這個不是正式使用是說他這樣子使用我下次問說您的想法跟您的態度您支持嗎報告委員我個人的了解AI是沒有辦法準確度到百分之百任何的AI沒有辦法百分之百所以他只能當作一個協助的工具人還是最重要"},{"start":6994.107,"end":7011.573,"text":"大眾都非常關心到底使用這些AI的這些設備使用在各種的領域之內如何確保它是無誤的如果是公正的還有就是說民眾很關心的隱私權的這個部分那AI如何使用如何規範相關的這些法規規範也希望說我們國科會跟我們數法部這邊用你們的專業可以盡快的來研議相關的讓民眾在使用這一些AI的這些設備方便之餘"},{"start":7023.437,"end":7025.298,"text":"主席早安 有請諸位"},{"start":7052.289,"end":7053.672,"text":"有請吳主委委員好"},{"start":7058.612,"end":7082.908,"text":"各位早安我想這一次黃仁勳執行長特別來到台灣那到目前為止其實大家都還是把這樣子的一個風潮那當然也視為這個台灣其實真的就是科技產業當中的無名英雄當然也是全世界的支柱這是對台灣很大的一個鼓舞那當然其實最有關係的包含我們的這個國客會的部分"},{"start":7084.208,"end":7100.953,"text":"其實黃榮勛執行長他有在6月2日晚上的演講當中他有特別提到一個就是NVIDIA的Earth2氣候數位暖身雲端平台我想這個部分主委應該也是相當的清楚知道"},{"start":7101.934,"end":7117.076,"text":"它是利用一個所謂的這個物理的一個模擬跟電腦的一個圖形的技術來預測全球的氣候它數位燃身的一個計畫那可以更精準的包含就是天氣上的預測或者是在我們的所謂的這個天候"},{"start":7118.097,"end":7118.437,"text":"議員吳誠文、數位發展部列席"},{"start":7137.05,"end":7144.113,"text":"這個合作呢是我們中央氣象署有提供它是2018到2021的一個整個所有的這個氣象的一個數據也提供給這個Earth2來作為一個參考那從2021一直到現在其實在中間的一個模擬等於是台灣是獨步全球然後來做這一塊的一個模擬然後跟這個整個所有的實驗跟合作的部分"},{"start":7162.04,"end":7178.48,"text":"所以他的數據上的一個掌握的精準度我相信應該是凌駕在其他的國家之上那這個部分其實我也還想要再問一下下的就是說那目前我們所知道的像之前我有特別去我們的再訪中心"},{"start":7179.24,"end":7193.334,"text":"也特別去看了一下就是我們在放中心雖然有我們自己本身的這個目前已經在做使用的一些所謂的在放中心的一些作業的一些系統那但是呢再加上如果我剛剛所說的這個Earth2他們的這個數位軟身的一個源端的一個平台"},{"start":7198.799,"end":7214.292,"text":"的確他也有可能在這個部分也發揮到一些其他的一個功能目前在整個合作的進程或者是說在將來的一個近期的目標他可以運用在我們的防災中心當中的哪一個環節這個部分是不是想請教一下我們主委好沒問題謝謝"},{"start":7217.194,"end":7246.454,"text":"委員你好就如同委員所提到的NVIDIA確實像中央氣象署拿了許多資料然後它現在有一個模式 Earth2它把所有的資料然後用AI去把它運算算力說實在多了好幾百倍我們看到所有資料不過這也是其中的一個預測模式也就是說把過去的25公里的比例尺降到2公里的比例尺說實在精準度多了很多"},{"start":7247.294,"end":7266.429,"text":"我們也是所有的各部會包括我們在防中心也就是把這個精準度拿來應用到所有的這些風險評估的這些衝擊的分析我想非常有用那現在NVIDIA在跟我們談更進一步的事情那我想有一些成果的話我想會跟委員報告"},{"start":7267.236,"end":7289.273,"text":"因為接下來其實臺灣面臨的就是每次的五六月可能就會有所謂的梅雨季那七八月甚至到九月十月因為氣候在轉變我想臺灣的訊息就是從五月到十月就是一個訊息的期間所以我們非常注意這些事情是好那我們也期待就是進一步合作之後有什麼樣的一個進程或什麼樣的一個發展其實再提供給我們這樣子是是是沒有問題"},{"start":7289.833,"end":7307.125,"text":"好,那另外其實剛剛有特別提到這個Earth2的一個這個計畫那當中其實還有一個數位孿生就是Digital Twin它其實不是只有運用在這個部分它其實也運用在其他很多的不同的一個產業比方說像是一些文化遺址的一個修復"},{"start":7307.585,"end":7308.105,"text":"進程又是怎麼樣?有沒有這個計畫?"},{"start":7329.494,"end":7358.714,"text":"Digital Twin的技術是已經很久的它需要的確是很大的算力那它可以應用到很多不同的領域那黃文勳演講也有提到一些例子我們當然不管是在政府部門在這個產業推動各行各業的這個應用我們也會把這個技術也會把它納進來因為這個也是AI其中一項可以使用到的這個應用的這個領域那特別是在智慧製造"},{"start":7359.894,"end":7387.925,"text":"特別是對人來講很危險的環境不太容易接觸的這些Digital Twin都是非常重要的領域我們也期待這個可以大規模的運用然後帶給我們更多的幫助謝謝委員指教另外其實剛剛也有一些委員有特別提到就是我們的Tide的部分我想先前在質詢的時候關於台灣第一個本土可信任深層式的AI對話的一個引擎"},{"start":7391.207,"end":7407.581,"text":"提出了一些我的一些看法那當然我們知道他的繁體中文的一個資料庫還要顧及很多的面向包含他的這個文本、數據、合法授權的一些來源所以其實在這個繁體中文的這個泰德的開發其實也是"},{"start":7408.622,"end":7424.737,"text":"過程其實是很辛苦的但是其實這個成效其實目前來講其實我們這是覺得還是不錯的喔因為我記得這個5月份的時候其實國科會也針對這份的這個成果有特別做報告那也有特別說了在4月份其實我有一個7B的一個model"},{"start":7425.878,"end":7443.291,"text":"另外將來如果簽署的所謂還是已經有簽署的一些MOU然後一些13B的一個模型那這兩個其實它在表現上其實都還算是非常的不錯那幾乎已經可以就是跟這個CHAP GPT的3.5其實不分宣誓了那這個部分我比較想要再詢問的是說將來再擴大"},{"start":7451.637,"end":7480.952,"text":"中文資料庫的一些數據是不是有什麼樣的更多的一些機會或者是發展來解決目前在所謂的資料來源不足的這樣子的一個困境是委員問得很好我們現在在發展的時候因為經費有限而且要照顧到這個資料的公平性其實我們收集的資料還是要不能夠侵犯隱私不能夠有一些商業資料被我們誤用的"},{"start":7481.612,"end":7510.495,"text":"未來的發展就完全不一樣未來發展是我們利用建構起來這個平台能夠協助各行各業來使用TED這個平台來訓練它專業的資料有隱私的資料特定應用的資料讓它模型還可以再優化效率更高準確度更高所以接下來這種資料的擴散是要依照我們各種不同的應用來協助我們把它擴散出去"},{"start":7511.178,"end":7516.723,"text":"其實我們對這個部分也相當的一個期待了那另外其實在這個去年年底我們特別啟動了這個AI產品跟系統的評測中心然後這個涵蓋了所謂的這個目的主要是在建立所謂的這個AI評測制度跟制定這個AI產品的一個系統的評測的一個指引"},{"start":7533.836,"end":7553.63,"text":"會是以所謂的這個文字語言的模型為優先那我們知道其實像Meta或者是像這個OpenAI他們其實也願意將他們的語言的模型接受來做這個部分的一個評測那我們的太子有沒有機會也一樣可以來做這方面的一個評測這個部分是不是"},{"start":7554.35,"end":7578.055,"text":"這部分的技術現在數位發展部正在進行目前已經正在進行是是是所以評測的部分將來跟TED來合作這一點是沒有問題的那什麼時候會有一個比較確定的一個進程有沒有這樣的計畫跟委員報告其實我們測試的語言模型的第一個大概就是TED所以我們只要開始進行測試的第一個首先選擇就是我們這個國科會開發的這個TED是好"},{"start":7580.535,"end":7584.516,"text":"那我想今天因為時間的問題在這邊也謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝郭玉琴委員 主委請回那我們現在休息5分鐘不好意思 剛好宣告"},{"start":7902.213,"end":7906.115,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會 我們接下來請羅廷威委員接訊謝謝 有請主席 幫我邀請吳主委數位部的葉長赤好 有請主委跟葉次長"},{"start":7929.724,"end":7950.151,"text":"委員好主委好主委不好意思我還是要提到一下前主委齁那個人工智慧基本法預計在今年年底推出那這是他說的齁那這個上個月主委您更是直接承諾要力拼今年10月底送進行政院請問目前草案研擬的進度有沒有方向有哪些方向什麼時候進行預告"},{"start":7951.994,"end":7970.448,"text":"我們這個月就在進行各界的溝通我們會開三場的諮詢會議包含跟產業界跟政府的各單位還有法輪學術界要做溝通10月要送進行政院8月可以預告吧8月可以預告"},{"start":7971.39,"end":7993.436,"text":"社會大眾不只是關注這個人工智慧基本法是因為今年3月13日歐盟已經通過了人工智慧法案我想這個等於未來要跟歐盟做生意AI的相關產業都需要遵守相關的規定否則無法進入市場本期就想先請問一下主委是否了解AI相關產業的產值有多少會輸出到歐盟的又佔多少"},{"start":7994.748,"end":8020.548,"text":"AI相關產業的產值是很難估計啦因為各種不同的應用你要把它的產值都加進來它其實相當的高那輸出到歐盟的占比呢你是講委員是講這個光是講硬體的部分還是因為台灣的輸出主要台灣的輸出主要是以硬體為主啦對到歐盟的有多少大概但是硬體其實我們直接供應的還是以美國的廠商為主美國廠商為主"},{"start":8021.789,"end":8048.667,"text":"以廠商為主,所以這一部分直接到歐盟的數量是比較少的但是確實的數字可能經濟部才會比較清楚沒關係沒關係我現在想要跟你探討的是另外一個層面本席因為會這樣子問的原因是國際上針對AI治理本來就有兩種做法一種是歐盟這種嚴格治理的模式提出監管的一個立法法案另外一種是美國、日本、英國鼓勵創新、鼓勵企業自主"},{"start":8051.909,"end":8079.163,"text":"與技術標準吳前主委有表示台灣不會走歐盟的路線而是朝日本、美國、英國的鼓勵創新的一個模式來做一個規劃但上個月有委員問您的立場您的回答是AI像一把菜刀非常重要且有用但也有可能被拿來做壞事所以要將其控制好的一個使用範圍本席可不可以理解為看起來您跟上一位的主委的態度不太一樣"},{"start":8080.103,"end":8098.218,"text":"是主張有可能要走歐盟模式而非日本美國英國的鼓勵創新模式而是您要主張是走中間路線控制的剛剛好那這樣子的算是控制的剛剛好的話那是不是一半符合歐盟一半不符合歐盟您可以給本席回答一下嗎"},{"start":8099.059,"end":8117.417,"text":"是 這個問題很好 我想我們前主委的態度非常清楚是因為台灣的產業其實跟美國這些主要的產商這個禮拜的委員也看得到主要往來是 主要往來 所以我們的產業發展為主的話就是以這個美國所"},{"start":8118.098,"end":8143.124,"text":"所訂定的這些法規的方向為參考的對象但是剛剛委員要提醒說在歐盟非常重視人權的這種法規的這種制定的方向其實我們的民眾也是非常期待我們也了解到說現在利用AI來做這個不好的事情詐騙、假訊息等等這些也是民眾深入痛覺的所以我們也會兼顧這部分"},{"start":8144.963,"end":8160.903,"text":"所以我想沒有對錯啦前主委跟現在您主委的一個態度我覺得沒有對錯只有好用跟更好用我們只是要善加提醒任何一個方案都可以但是就是要以最大台灣利益為考量"},{"start":8161.644,"end":8179.182,"text":"我想如果要走歐盟的模式大家都知道那個非常嚴格的一個限定而且AI法案將人工智慧又把技術上分成不可接受風險的等級然後還有需額外遵守安全規範的高風險等級承受的一個透明度義務有限或低風險的一個等級我想國科會是否有盤點目前台灣AI產業"},{"start":8184.967,"end":8200.639,"text":"發展有哪些屬於不可接受風險的等級高風險的等級以及有限或低風險的等級因為一旦踩到這一個罰款的紅線可能是從3500萬歐元跟全球營業額的7%到750萬歐元或營業額1.5%不等有沒有掌握這一類"},{"start":8208.382,"end":8212.768,"text":"這部分的業務我想我們將來我們數位發展部會依照委員這樣的這個意見我們會來進行就是盤點我們的產業數位發展部也是牽涉到我們的AI產業發展所以我們會來盤點"},{"start":8223.424,"end":8247.091,"text":"我們就是善意提醒沒有要拷倒你們只是希望一定要多加注意啦好不好請問規劃中的人工智慧基本法是否也有針對政府部分來做規範像目前行政院所屬機關使用深層式AI的參考指引就只有針對深層式AI的內容進行規範而沒有針對利用人工智慧系統來進行的社會評分預防犯罪以及行為操控的相關規定"},{"start":8248.944,"end":8268.353,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們在政府部門在AI基本法我們會做一些這個很重要的這個所以目前還沒做目前目前還好對都是提醒的那幾點我想我今天所提醒的剛好都是沒有做的部分那沒關係您的笑容非常燦爛也展現出誠意"},{"start":8270.954,"end":8298.328,"text":"沒有做我們趕緊補上我們會補上好不好這個部分可以嗎謝謝委員謝謝你好那另外呢歐盟以一般資料保護規則GDPR為例他不只規範企業也規範政府台灣個資法的主管機關原本是國發會為了因應GDPR所以成立了個人資料保護委員會的籌備處如果按照相同的道理我們是否也應該設立一個人工智慧治理保護委員會的方向思考"},{"start":8300.011,"end":8315.703,"text":"我們會來演繹一下委員的這個意見相當有深度好 這也是一個建議啦但是我想都是有脈絡的所以我們才會做這樣子的一個探討那 主委您應該有聽過數位落差"},{"start":8317.785,"end":8340.411,"text":"有聽過當然AI也會面臨相對應的一個問題我們的孩子是否擁有或者是會使用AI我覺得這會是未來一個新的課題也會成為新的不平等所以以後也會有一個AI落差以後可能會有會AI跟不會AI的兩個群體的差距要怎麼改善這之間的一個差距未來有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":8341.089,"end":8362.86,"text":"未來我們會跟教育部來合作希望能夠從教育端包含從大中小學能夠盡量把AI這種比較屬於科普的這種課程能夠拿到教育那對於這個民眾我們在產業推廣的時候我們會進行各行各業的這個產業推廣希望能夠減少這個數位落差"},{"start":8366.567,"end":8382.094,"text":"AI的落差以及高職以及國中他們能不能重視AI這是我未來非常關注重要的一個課題我要先跟你講那我先請問一下次長次長那個部長上任的時候有規劃說要設立AI生態園區目前規劃為何?"},{"start":8383.693,"end":8403.216,"text":"跟委員報告首先當然AI生態園區這個概念當然還是在提出的階段我們在跟國發會有沒有考慮在台中設立那我們不想強調主要是生態而不是園區因為對於這個AI產業來講大多數的產業都是在線上進行的所以它需要的是資料、算力跟演算法"},{"start":8404.036,"end":8419.709,"text":"我們會優先從這方面來投資而不是投資土地或廠房所以就我們的觀點來看的話我們會對全台灣跟AI有相關的產業都盡量把它串聯起來好 那我還是要說台中有土地水南園區以及它有一個創研用地"},{"start":8421.09,"end":8437.976,"text":"交通方便、位置適中、居住人口也年輕、相關產業人才皆有也希望你能夠考量為使AI的一個應用發展可信任度、安全且可靠所以規劃必須通過數位部的一個AI評測業者才能販售或使用AI系統請問國內制度是否參考國際相關的規範目前規劃的評測類型項目又是哪些?"},{"start":8443.038,"end":8445.719,"text":"最後我想數位部在今天的報告有提到在高中值開設AI課程請問辦理的狀況為何?整體開設的比例有多高?"},{"start":8469.392,"end":8473.413,"text":"目前這些課程我想這個偏鄉還有高中值的開設狀況這都是我們所關注的那與哪些企業及培訓單位合作我們也很想知道是不是會後能夠提供相關的資料給我們"},{"start":8495.541,"end":8513.173,"text":"我們更希望能夠讓所有的孩子都有機會能夠參與到加強宣傳所以資料給我我也來幫忙宣傳嘛是是是謝謝委員好不好我們一起為教育努力謝謝謝謝好謝謝羅廷偉委員好主委請回我們接下來請張雅玲委員謝謝主席我們有請主委有請吳主委"},{"start":8527.54,"end":8545.143,"text":"委員好主委好因為剛剛有委員問到就是有關於兒童教育在AI這一段那我就想我就先延伸來提醒一下就其實在2016年世界經濟論壇就一路出報告來提醒大家面對AI孩子需要具備的能力是什麼"},{"start":8546.204,"end":8564.818,"text":"在AI世代如何還是成為世界上極具有競爭力的人才其實是透過遊戲因為遊戲之中其實有充分的創造力的練習這個是AI現在沒有辦法取代的所以我希望就是說我們雖然要關注兒童的教育面的話我們可能還是要非常的謹慎"},{"start":8566.179,"end":8594.359,"text":"不要就是投入太多的AI的課程反而剝奪了兒童遊戲的時間那反而是讓我們沒有辦法在AI時代可以存活下來這個是從2016年開始世界經濟論壇就一個很大的提醒那接下來我就進入今天的重點那我想大家這幾天應該都非常了解就是黃仁勳的演講其實他一直不停的去強調就是說台灣是無名英雄是世界的支柱那感染也鼓舞了所有的台灣人"},{"start":8595.974,"end":8624.682,"text":"同時接下來也有一系列不管是AMD或是超微他們都宣布要投資台灣一瞬間台灣變成了世界的中心台北市電腦工會理事長有提到有三個重點需要面對第一個就是算力第二個是電力第三個是人力上次我在諮詢經濟部的時候有提到說我們有沒有把AI需要的電力來把它算進去"},{"start":8625.482,"end":8641.745,"text":"因為現在大家都大幅的加碼投資剛剛也是一堆算力中心要進來了那我想跟主委請教就是說因為算力就是非常需要電力那我們之前在做這些估算的時候有沒有把這些電力的規劃都放進去呢?"},{"start":8643.403,"end":8665.382,"text":"有沒有協助經濟部來做這些規劃呢?有,抱歉。報告委員,我們跟經濟部是一直密切在溝通。在經濟部提出來的這個規劃裡面,其實未來幾年,我們依照現在AI的需求以及半導體製造的需求,這個電力是一直,需求是一直在成長。"},{"start":8666.443,"end":8672.046,"text":"在成長的過程當中我們會盡力去開發我們的綠電這個綠電目前規劃當中是希望將來短期內"},{"start":8677.574,"end":8706.883,"text":"我們現在預計要增建這些算力這個超級電腦能夠符合現在經濟部的規劃所以目前經濟部的報告是沒有問題好那這部分因為其實因為這個AI的進步是成長迅速啦所以而且雖然說好像我們算力大幅的增加我們效能增加電力也沒用到這麼多但是我覺得這邊我們還是要實時的去保持我們要去計算出相對的一些電力需求讓我們確保我們的這些產業還有AI算力中心都可以持續的有好好的運作"},{"start":8707.703,"end":8731.761,"text":"謝謝委員再來就是說因為其實我們在112年有提供提出一個晶片驅動台灣創新產業的一個方案也投入了3000多億要來挹注這個生成式AI的關鍵技術那也有說我們要跟百工百業來去調查他們的AI需求並且已經以機械業為示範的案例建立了資料共享機制那我想要了解在這一段"},{"start":8732.341,"end":8755.409,"text":"我們目前針對百工百業雖然是112年開始那我們接下來的一個規劃目前的進度是什麼有沒有詳細的一個推廣我們大概要到什麼時候推廣到多少的產業這樣子我在上個月接任的時候有跟媒體宣布過我們在三個月內要規劃出一個方案出來三個月內是嗎三個月內那之後可以規劃出方案的時候可不可以也提供給我們"},{"start":8756.966,"end":8768.516,"text":"當然一定也會在這邊報告跟委員報告那接下來我想要再提醒我不知道主委有沒有看過這一份就是AI產業化去年一個新的大調查的報告不知道主委看過這份報告嗎"},{"start":8771.33,"end":8798.922,"text":"這份報告我個人沒有看過好喔沒關係那我之後也希望說主委可能也可以看一下因為我們剛剛講百工百業他其實就講到了他們去調查了四種不同的產業這樣子製造業啦然後還有專業服務業啊然後還有ICP產業等等的那他就有講到去了解說到底有多少企業導入了AI那這樣看起來算有近半數好像有導入但是也有近半數過半數已經導入但是也有近半數完全沒有"},{"start":8799.942,"end":8821.11,"text":"還沒有導入這樣子所以這邊說我們要如何的來協助大家做使用會是一個很重要的重點尤其是台灣其實有非常多的中小企業那你可以看一下這張圖我們台灣製造業的AI化指數差異是很大的我們可能在資訊流通業ICT產業很高黑色的虛點線是平均值"},{"start":8822.19,"end":8830.196,"text":"但是我們的製造業政府機關以及零售貿易服務業都是低於平均的所以這一塊非常需要主委的協助"},{"start":8831.807,"end":8861.127,"text":"我自己看了一些報導他們說製造業是可以導入AI模型來輔助增進產線的生產效率提升良率、預防性維修所以這些都是好處但是我也看到了這個人工智慧學校的校長孔祥忠院士他提到說我們現在的政府資料其實是有問題的我們的原始資料不明是什麼樣的資料何時收集是否經過整理都不清楚第二個也不知道資料到底放在哪裡伺服器經常壞許多實驗產出數據寫了兩篇論文之後資料就不知道在哪裡了"},{"start":8861.907,"end":8879.131,"text":"第三個授權的規格不明是否定期維護所以就變成說政府都說有資料但是沒有整理成AI模型可以使用的都不算真的資料所以如果以這個標準來看可用的資料其實非常少那就會很難做出AI模型"},{"start":8881.55,"end":8893.259,"text":"他說他有三個建議就是說我們是不是可以把這個資料整理清楚建立產業模型來養技職人才那是不是可以在像是如果是通用的通用資料就用通用模型給一般人專業領域如製造業醫療業"},{"start":8897.022,"end":8897.422,"text":"可以請數位部來回答"},{"start":8917.027,"end":8945.357,"text":"跟委員報告本部的資料治理的部分是由我們多元創新司來負責委員剛剛指出的非常正確目前政府資料的狀況是屬於一個還在比較初階的階段我們會爭取一個公共建設計畫做所謂的資料圖譜讓各個政府的資料它的整個圖像變得比較清楚相對來講不管是要進行資料創接應用服務也好"},{"start":8945.737,"end":8946.738,"text":"議員吳誠文、數位發展部列席"},{"start":8972.056,"end":8986.091,"text":"規劃現在是有的對不對我們現在在進行規劃中在進行規劃那進行規劃之後是不是也可以提供給我我們可以來做一些討論好不好沒有問題那再來就是說我想我就因為時間有點不太夠我來講一個重點就是說其實今天委員也都有提到就是說"},{"start":8987.172,"end":9008.312,"text":"到底我們要不要持續的去對台德做投資那我自己看這個圖靈獎得主主導Meta AI研究的科學家楊立坤他就有講不要研究大型語言模型這上次我有跟主委講我們應該要來專精於本土語言模型這才是我們最具有競爭優勢的地方那我其實看了剛剛那一份AI產業化的報告我也發現資訊業"},{"start":9010.674,"end":9013.277,"text":"提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒"},{"start":9030.152,"end":9048.812,"text":"金融時報在5月22日報導了中國近期透過的一些官方訓練他們自己的CHAT GPT叫做CHAT CPT這是金融時報說的因為它主要訓練素材是習近平新時代中國特色社會主義思想資料庫"},{"start":9050.133,"end":9070.586,"text":"習思想是由14條原則來組成的包括保證中國共產黨絕對掌權加強國家安全和社會主義價值觀所以他今天闡述的內容其實是會造成一些很大的偏頗的問題有不中立的問題那剛剛好今天國語日報他也講到了這一點"},{"start":9072.309,"end":9082.938,"text":"所以這一點我想請主委或是誰可以來回答我就說當世界都在發展AI的時候我們今天是我們的本土語言模型的時候我們要如何來確保我們的資料不是偏頗的"},{"start":9084.679,"end":9111.548,"text":"我非常同意委員的觀點其實大型元模型不是萬靈丹它是非常耗資源、耗能源的一種做法它是一種統計性的方式需要大量的資料、非常大的模型用耗大量的電力、算力才有辦法做出答案但是它的答案卻又不是百分之百準確它其實不是所有的應用都適合"},{"start":9112.268,"end":9136.764,"text":"我們現在放講AI,AI有很多種方式所以我們要混合其他的方式不一定全部都是用這種大型語言模型所以委員的觀點非常好所以我們要兼顧說能源的有效使用人才的有效使用模型的優化資料的準確度將來在各行各業的應用我們會去協助他們做比較有效率的這個發展很同意委員的觀點"},{"start":9137.785,"end":9159.799,"text":"對,但是我想要知道就是說剛剛其實有講嘛就是說我也非常認同啦就是說我們應該要做出一些差異化而且是真正適合台灣的產業使用的那當然就是說延伸這一點我先延伸一下就是說我們應該要來跟企業來合作開發更多的應用情境來協助企業來使用這個深層式AI這樣子那但是齁"},{"start":9161.18,"end":9184.38,"text":"這是要坦白說啦,也是要一定開發能力的企業才有辦法自己開發出來那所以是說是不是因為目前台德還是一整包資料啦,未來也希望就是說是不是可以開放出來這是可能可以來討論但是還是回到我們的偏頗我們要如何確保我們現在訓練的資料沒有偏頗性的問題對這個部分就是有現在是怎麼可以再做一些說明嗎"},{"start":9185,"end":9206.557,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我們所謂的這個TIDE因為Trustworthy缺的資料不偏頗是我們一個蠻重要的任務那未來這個在數位部列的評測中心其實他們也會做這方面的檢測所以這是我們很注意的一個重點在發生TIDE的時候這檢測性是頻率是多久呢我們資料對就資料進來的時候要經過評測中心來檢測這個資料有沒有偏頗這樣子好所以這個那個114年的公建計畫應該也非常有關係對不對會會是好了解謝謝喔"},{"start":9215.662,"end":9224.604,"text":"謝謝委員好謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員還出了請回我們接下來請AI博士可如君委員"},{"start":9239.104,"end":9241.991,"text":"謝謝主席。有請國科會吳誠文主委與數發部葉寧常務次長配訓。謝謝。好。有請吳主委葉次長。"},{"start":9249.909,"end":9274.51,"text":"委員好謝謝主委今天的報告真的是很高興可以看到您上次投出一顆好球我們接住了我們丟回去您也接住了十月提出AI基本法的目標在這個報告裡面提了兩次不過你們前面留了期望兩個字那我們就一起期望但是我認為今天這份報告還是有一些地方希望能夠來跟主委探討一下首先"},{"start":9276.007,"end":9302.123,"text":"我們發現這整份報告裡面對於對接國際的這個部分真的是有所缺憾我們很擔心我們的AI變成閉門造局今天你是國科會是在做未來方向的報告我們不用講裡面有一半以上都是在講現況未來是最重要的但是結果未來竟然只在最後的一夜跟一夜半那裡面有很多的細節以前也許有一些立委可能不是像我這麼宅不太懂"},{"start":9302.583,"end":9320.947,"text":"但是今天因為底下有兩位都是我以前的老師他們都教得很好所以我懂所以我今天真的是要來討論一下首先以第8頁為例你們說因應AI發展算力的需求你們的這個方案預定在2024年底完成16 petaflops2025超越100 petaflops2028年完成200 petaflops"},{"start":9328.939,"end":9354.339,"text":"老實說,隨便Google一下連GDP都不用問這個一比較起來是真的會流眼淚的我們到2024年才16現在印度的已經是410我還查過了他們的國民生產毛額或者是總體的這個所謂的全部累計的GDP我們也頂多就是四分之一啦七分之一啦除一下我覺得這個數字也真的有點可憐"},{"start":9355.96,"end":9368.055,"text":"更不用講現在國外已經開始在用exaflops來做單位了我們這樣子真的是算力非常堪憂我想報告的第13頁開始總算未來佈局了但覺得有點單薄"},{"start":9369.71,"end":9392.492,"text":"只有一頁的內容然後我們看到前面說我們要推動AI創新看到的案例只有三個例子當然有一個農業我覺得是不錯但提到這個所謂Computer Vision辨識的地方我們覺得有點作為阿宅因為我是那個中研院廖所長的粉絲他們做了一個這個YOLO這個非常非常受歡迎的開發套件"},{"start":9394.313,"end":9415.024,"text":"結果呢5月26號已經出了最新版這一份6月5號的報告竟然說YOLO是V7啦我就直接講啦現在已經第10代了V9已經是全球轟動了這個上個禮拜是出到第10代了我們這份最新的報告說我們台灣的中研院自己參與主導開發的YOLO是第7代"},{"start":9418.393,"end":9434.699,"text":"真的是有點志向矛盾更不用講啦說什麼參數比較啦算力都沒有去缺這個所謂的跨國的訊息的同步跟比較然後呢我們這去了解各部會AI的成果好像溝通協調回來也就零零總總兩三樣"},{"start":9436.34,"end":9453.073,"text":"我們真的很擔心到底各部會有沒有接您的球啊您發出去的這個訊息各部會有沒有回應啊陳建仁院長曾經說未來要推AI行動計畫3.0未來一定是由您來統籌規劃您投出去的球各個單位會接嗎?你作為這個投撲手作為這個打擊者也好都應該是瞻仰這個全世界各地的狀況你有在看嗎?各位稍微回應一下"},{"start":9465.19,"end":9486.645,"text":"謝謝委員的指教因為我這個才第三個禮拜啦那其實還沒有時間去拜訪各部會這真的是很遺憾不過我會努力做這個事有需要我們幫忙的地方我們一起來協作好不好謝謝您的誠意啦這個既然這個但是喔三個禮拜AI已經要跳帶囉我們每天在睡覺"},{"start":9488.786,"end":9492.369,"text":"所以我們不能把我們現在的時間當成以前的時間來看再來還有一點我看了非常憂心這一份報告很可能是我們接下來台灣6個月甚至是6年的發展方向其中關於AI的行政命令在美國"},{"start":9508.283,"end":9520.72,"text":"或者是AI基本法在歐盟都非常重視利用AI打詐以及禁止AI被運用於詐騙請問這份報告裡面有沒有提到這個部分我有沒有看錯沒有啊我有沒有看錯"},{"start":9524.315,"end":9550.587,"text":"主委,我有沒有看錯?我們數位發展部的報告裡面有所以國科會不需要管這個事情科研不需要來協作嗎?所以我們希望速發部的研發能力比國科會強嗎?國科會當然學界研發能力比較強但是我們在各部位的分工上面我們有一些工作是速發部那我想未來我們報告改一下與打詐無關的人工智慧推動現況與未來方向好不好?"},{"start":9552.128,"end":9567.561,"text":"再來我們看2023年的4月份OpenAI的執行長Sam Altman跟日本首相岸田文雄會面會後Sam Altman表達對日本市場的重視並且考慮跟日本合作的可能結果呢?"},{"start":9567.561,"end":9571.324,"text":"結果呢?今年的2024年是要更正嗎?時間暫停一下這邊有沒有?我剛剛講錯了是不是?現在要更正可以喔?沒有嗎?好OK那我們繼續喔"},{"start":9579.278,"end":9597.804,"text":"跟日本合作的可能 OpenAI 在官網宣布4月14日在日本設立亞洲第一個辦事處我們可以看到日本我們的鄰居日本好朋友對引進先進產業的企圖跟決心還有誠意主委那你們呢我就問一個問題你們執政團隊有沒有跟Sam Altman提出過邀約"},{"start":9599.885,"end":9621.082,"text":"我們再來看上個星期黃仁勳去逛夜市16%的GDP跟他吃晚餐黃仁勳基於產業要求的人都來到台灣了政府有沒有動作有沒有邀約相關產業的巨頭來聊有沒有跟黃仁勳聯繫我們平常就有在聯繫平常就有在聯繫有開會有討論我們的與打炸無關的人工智慧發展現況嗎"},{"start":9623.052,"end":9623.532,"text":"這一部分沒有"},{"start":9653.193,"end":9653.555,"text":"有沒有?目前沒有"},{"start":9658.286,"end":9672.173,"text":"希望我想您的角色真的非常重要希望您可以做到專業的協助讓我們的AI內閣真的是AI內閣那我們再來持續的來看我們樂見產業發展但是我們的規劃政策規劃要考慮到不是只有產業還有我們的所有的這個社會的發展文化的提升這些都是我們考慮的社會的發展文化的提升就是詐騙的防治"},{"start":9684.7,"end":9685.121,"text":"主權AI是我們剛剛提出來的"},{"start":9701.496,"end":9722.389,"text":"然後呢之前也很感謝啦我們之前執政黨說算力及國力接下來我們還要面臨到一個挑戰電力及國力這個今天我們暫時不討論前面有很多委員都討論了但是我們來看我們的算力是怎麼做的呢我們的算力是速發部要打造算力池我們國科會也有高速電腦網路中心我們來看速發部要買什麼32片H100"},{"start":9727.503,"end":9741.275,"text":"我是真的齁大家去google一下就可以看到了齁一間Tesla公司的一個工廠德州的製造廠就要買5萬片的H100他的一個社群網站要買30萬片的B200請問"},{"start":9744.278,"end":9753.04,"text":"相關的計畫接下來還有好幾年後續有沒有要採購新的晶片我們之前質詢已經講了人家H100已經都量產了你再來買H100再來訂預算買到的時候人家已經是B200了我們現在再去編B200預算買到的時候人家已經不知道飛去哪裡了我們有沒有提前規劃提前規劃去購買下一個世代的算力來供業界運用有嗎"},{"start":9770.543,"end":9789.185,"text":"我們現在規劃的預算等到我們真正採購的時候一定當然會要針對最新的的那個設備那現在有沒有在編列B系列的預算?我們所編的預算那個楊老師好像有嗎?好像想幫忙解釋不好意思那個主席讓我因為他這個訊息很重要"},{"start":9790.282,"end":9816.315,"text":"我們國防中心在編列這邊的時候都會考慮未來新出來的那個計算機的那個型號是這樣子所以就是說我們先編列預算然後框預算到時候購買的時候但是用最新的機器的為主這個委員不用擔心好我們剛剛其實是非一體沒有關係希望真的是以最新的來講同時因為你去買這些東西真的緩不濟急現在有一些雲端的服務其實我自己很清楚"},{"start":9816.755,"end":9820.637,"text":"主委您覺得到底以前我們說世界各國想到晶圓代工想到台灣那未來呢?主委您覺得未來想到AI的什麼會直覺想到台灣?到底是什麼?我們在這本裡沒有辦法看到"},{"start":9841.823,"end":9842.303,"text":"軟硬整合我想在座兩位老師都很清楚"},{"start":9872.348,"end":9881.715,"text":"臺灣也有臺灣的實驗室做影像辨識的臺灣也有研發實驗室也有某個水果公司做那個最新產品同時我們這個YOLO的這個系統在全世界都非常受歡迎我們軟體很強的我們應該要一起來最後最後一個點我們要作為產業跟科研的種子頭"},{"start":9895.486,"end":9916.147,"text":"因為您是主委也兼任政委所以所有關於台灣AI的推動小組、行動計畫、參考指引我上次已經朗讀過我就不再朗讀了還有台灣AICOE、應用專題中心、研究中心、A家、DigitalPlus、DigitalPlus 2.0我還是忍不住朗讀起來讓您知道真的有多麼琳瑯滿目跟豐富"},{"start":9918.349,"end":9921.873,"text":"同時我也想要問這裡面還有很多東西細節是我們作為科研作為學研作為產業研發是沒有辦法了解的我4月份向各位提出建議到底有沒有要做我們一個Yellow Page一站式的"},{"start":9933.146,"end":9961.901,"text":"列出科研學研我們有台灣LOM我們有台德我們還有這個機器狗這個機器人我們今天就不討論但是呢我們到底這個接下來您有回覆啦說要成立一個一站式的查詢頁面通查網可不可以請一下簡要說明啦說明一下第一這上面有沒有相關的這些計畫會名列第二後續的規劃如何第三什麼時候會建置完成"},{"start":9964.557,"end":9984.661,"text":"有沒有時間表這是誰寫的請他報告一下專業分工說明一下跟委員報告一下我們目前相關的跨部會的協調透過智慧國家方案在推動我們近期因為新的內閣的成員上來我們正在做那個"},{"start":9991.983,"end":10014.174,"text":"簽成簽完之後我們就會開第一次的工作會議那工作會議上面就會把這個事情放到工作會議裡面來討論到時候才會有各部會的那個相關的那個資料的彙整那預計第三季就會那個網站的內容就會上去第三季嗎好非常期待拜託一定要非常清楚一定要讓國外的人士可以很清楚知道"},{"start":10015.214,"end":10040.403,"text":"臺灣真的是AI的世界的中心真的是有非常強大的軟硬整合的實力我們作為這個種子頭啦我們一定要讓大家循線追查可以知道臺灣有多少優秀的種子可以來幫助AI產業持續發展我們也期待國會這邊扮演到非常重要的角色三個禮拜很長了AI每天在睡覺的時候我們每天在質詢的時候都在變聰明再拜託我們再繼續努力謝謝"},{"start":10044.324,"end":10046.645,"text":"好,謝謝葛如君委員,主委請回。那我們現在有請林一錦委員質詢,有請主委。聽我請了,謝謝。還有葉次長,數發部。還有葉次長跟數發部,謝謝。"},{"start":10075.307,"end":10101.605,"text":"主委好主委好我想會定這個題目最主要是真的是AI的應用的浪潮正在席捲全世界特別是2022年11月這個OpenAI將這個CHAP GPT開放給大眾使用之後帶出了這個生成式AI的新序幕那我想用"},{"start":10102.125,"end":10107.01,"text":"更配合這個揮打的執行長黃仁勛來台﹖加起一陣旋風當然我想他的演講也讓我們台灣有很多的啟發特別他也強調人工智慧和加速運算將重新定義未來"},{"start":10122.506,"end":10139.335,"text":"科技飛速帶來那麼的便利可是這個同時我們要注意的是什麼因為它會相伴著很多的風險跟使用上的疑慮還有我們各種法制作業所需的建構首先想要用這個新聞來跟你探討生成式AI應用過程中合理使用的界限"},{"start":10147.299,"end":10153.464,"text":"還有這個智慧財產權保護的問題這個就是那個今年4月復興商工的校內的美術展覽的競賽然後首獎的作品遭事後發現說他是AI生成的有這個新聞那很多的學者都有出面表示說AI的使用已經是勢在必行那重點應該放在說怎麼教育學生如何正確的使用AI"},{"start":10175.78,"end":10194.893,"text":"所以創作屬於自己的作品而且具備所謂的財產智慧權的概念可是從這個事件來我們可以看出說AI的應用會改變創作的原創性的定義就是說我們可以把AI視作一種工具可是當然也可以同時把它視作是直接的產出"},{"start":10198.855,"end":10218.819,"text":"但無論是寫作業也好競賽創作也好或真是作品AI的應用過程跟結果就應該如何規範或者應該如何對人民進到基本的素養教育我想國科會跟數位發展部責無旁貸"},{"start":10222.819,"end":10243.925,"text":"想要就教主委跟次長就是說除了國科會在今年我們要10月嘛剛剛很多委員都有就教就是要提出AI基本法的草案進行這個大方向性的規範那在那個之前我們寫作業也好或者競賽創作真實作品的面向我們如何通案性的界定"},{"start":10244.565,"end":10248.087,"text":"在10月發表AI使用法的基本法的時候在這之前我們怎麼樣去規範或怎麼樣去定義那個合理使用的界線"},{"start":10274.545,"end":10299.315,"text":"目前我們是各部會依照這個指引我們這個AI的指引希望大家盡快先在法律還沒有制定之前先有一些指引可以依循然後我們的產業界我們的這個所有的AI的使用者能夠有這個指引他就不會去太濫用這個AI的能力去做一些不合適的事情"},{"start":10299.955,"end":10328.77,"text":"好,那也請次長回答我這個問題就是說我們要怎麼樣去界定這個界限首先跟委員報告有關智慧財產權的部分那它經濟部有所謂智慧財產局那他們來主管著作權、專利法以及商標法所以有關於它是不是著作權的問題可能最後要以這個智慧財產局的說法為準那的確委員所說的沒有錯在這部分有一些法律上的爭議譬如說AI所生成的算不算是一種著作物"},{"start":10329.15,"end":10341.895,"text":"以及他著作人是不是這個應用AI的人這是有爭議的那而且很多的學者也都說以AI生成不太能夠把它當作著作人來看待或著作物來看待那這個當然國際上還在討論據我所知那智慧局也在根據國際的歧視在做進一步的研究"},{"start":10347.737,"end":10377.175,"text":"如果有需要的話他會修改這個著作權法的規定來做更詳細或是由智慧局來發布解釋函令才會更精確當然也要看法院的見解因為智慧財產局其實在去年6月他就表示說AI是利用人如戲單純下指令他覺得並未投入精神的創作那由生成AI模型獨立自助運算而生成的所謂的全新的內容他覺得該AI的生成內容"},{"start":10377.415,"end":10378.495,"text":"主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席"},{"start":10403.622,"end":10423.037,"text":"當然這部分剛剛次長跟部長跟主委也有提到一些想法但我還是期待說在這部分要更完備的去做一些周延的規劃另外我想再提幾個就是說美國人工的智慧研究實驗室"},{"start":10424.537,"end":10444.826,"text":"他在上個月底有發布一個報告他就探討說人工智慧工具如何被用於秘密影響力的這個行動那這份報告有指出說中國、伊朗、俄羅斯、以色列他們的組織都利用open AI工具創造假訊息剛剛有很多委員有提及"},{"start":10445.066,"end":10468.171,"text":"提及並在社群媒體上發布另外瑞典的大學也有研究說臺灣已經是連續11年受境外假訊息攻擊最嚴重的國家所以可見AI假訊息的資訊攻擊會是我們全球各國特別是臺灣我們要提升防衛意識的很重要的一個目標"},{"start":10470.543,"end":10478.71,"text":"本席知道說我們速發布在上個月我們就有說要規劃設立所謂剛剛也有很多委員說就是所謂的打詐通報查詢網那利用這個AI對抗AI假訊息那可是在台灣嚴重受到假訊息嚴重的侵擾之下這個有關於AI假訊息的對抗的這個問題不曉得你們目前有什麼具體的解決手段"},{"start":10497.706,"end":10513.242,"text":"還有就是說國科會如何跟訴發部合作就是說除了力抗這個假訊息這個詐騙以外對於所謂的國安不死的訊息有什麼樣防範的這種做法"},{"start":10516.042,"end":10533.275,"text":"跟委員報告,如委員所說的就是我們現在AI技術所產生的不管是詐騙訊息或假訊息的確在技術上面會越來越難辯證為那數法部有兩個方案來進行第一個是溯源那我們要讓民眾非常能夠簡單的知道說這個來源是可靠的"},{"start":10533.815,"end":10552.769,"text":"包括簡訊的部分我們政府部門已經使用11如果看到政府部門的來的訊息不是這個11那可能就是有問題那將來我們會進一步推所謂商用檢碼在檢碼上面來源我們跟電信公司合作基本上面沒有詐騙集團使用檢碼的可能性這是第一件事情"},{"start":10553.309,"end":10569.706,"text":"第二件事情就是說剛剛委員也提到就是我們會努力來建立所謂的詐騙的查詢通報網讓民眾能夠將相關資訊能夠很快的能夠再找到答案說它是不是一個詐騙的案例那這個當然要透過AI技術來掃描以及這個辨識那這個我們會努力來做"},{"start":10573.649,"end":10573.669,"text":"好"},{"start":10603.69,"end":10618.808,"text":"最後我想說提醒一下我們國科會會開發這個Tide生成性的AI對話引擎當然現在我們要灌入很多的素材給它用繁體中文的資料我想"},{"start":10620.49,"end":10628.373,"text":"要如何讓它符合台灣文化跟所謂台灣的價值觀的內容我想這個變成很重要那重點是不能讓歧視跟具有偏見的回答內容出現在對話引擎的應用上"},{"start":10638.418,"end":10652.288,"text":"當然現在台灣社會還是很有很多歧視跟具有偏見的言論層出不窮我們不希望這樣的情形出現在這個人工智慧的對話引擎中我們也要建議說這個歧視的內容要完全杜絕"},{"start":10653.129,"end":10663.432,"text":"如果出現文化上的差異至少要並程回答或交代脈絡我舉例來說假設我們要使用一個AI的對話引擎想要生成一張具台灣婚禮特色的圖片可是什麼叫做具台灣婚禮的特色光援助民族就有很大的差異所以你如果只讓AI生成一張或一種的這種"},{"start":10684.218,"end":10708.397,"text":"臺灣特色的婚禮那我想這個可能就不夠所以我的意思說那某個程度也代表我們對於臺灣本土文化的一種偏見所以我想說這個提醒你因為時間的關係就要多加留意那對於我們的這個多元文化跟具有偏見跟歧視的這種內容是不是要有一些關照"},{"start":10708.937,"end":10725.862,"text":"是,謝謝委員往這個方面來修正就是我們在做這個態度的時候是,避免歧視與偏見這也是我們非常努力要做的事好,OK謝謝委員謝謝主委謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝主委主委請回謝謝好,下一位我們請柯志恩召委"},{"start":10744.09,"end":10748.551,"text":"主委,請主委主委好因為AI目前是台灣最熱門的一個關鍵字但我想想看這個我們有關於全國的科技的這個會議最近開的話應該是在109年也是三年半前所以有關全國的科技會議當中也特別提到了那時候就提到如何育才、留才跟攬才"},{"start":10772.675,"end":10778.077,"text":"他們希望能夠取出具體的一個政策但是數字會說話我們來看看到底有沒有什麼成效上次我已經提過了我們的數位競爭力每一年都在下降然後呢我們就這個STEM大家知道嘛這個STEM的人才這個科學、科技、工程、數學領域10年當中大概少了也將近10萬人"},{"start":10794.582,"end":10819.517,"text":"而且呢有關於這個STEM領域的博士的人數也少了4000多人這個減幅是在26%以上主委你應該知道這個警訊吧雖然我們每個人都知道台灣是AI人才的創造中心每個人就是看重台灣的人才可是當我們這麼多的人才不斷在流失的時候這也是一個我今天我們看下面這圖我想每個人今天幾乎所有的委員都來"},{"start":10819.957,"end":10839.137,"text":"但是我討論的不是因為這是無名的英雄那被列舉的這17個大學大家都非常的高興但是這17個大學怎麼被挑選出來呢因為他們都設有AI的學程或是跟AI的學院有相關聯所以就被調列出來但是主委我們都來自學校你認為以我們現在大學的師資"},{"start":10841.019,"end":10844.021,"text":"你覺得我們現在的學校,因為國科會是負責在學術裡面當中做很多的分配你覺得我們現在大學的師子有辦法來培育頂尖未來產業所需要的人才嗎?"},{"start":10858.463,"end":10876.133,"text":"現在是有能力啦就是我們有頂尖的研究型的大學那我們也有一些計時體系的學校是可以培養產業需求的人才是啊 但是我看了一下台青教跟AI有關係的這些教授學者們大概"},{"start":10877.213,"end":10883.378,"text":"不是那麼多都是在英特爾頂多是在英特爾有做過幾年的經驗那很多都還是來做本土的一個訓練我並沒有說本土訓練不行但是呢我覺得這個面臨一個跟產業間一個很大的間接所以你國科會未來在做這個academic oriented的過程當中是不是有一些不同的審核的標準過去靠paper來現在你如果完全只靠paper來取向基礎科學來說這不符合我們人才需求的"},{"start":10905.336,"end":10910.319,"text":"所以你們未來對於這個AI計畫的審核的標準有沒有不一樣還是我只要畫一個整核心計畫寫一個AI你都給它過關有不一樣嗎委員提出來這個觀點非常的好將來我們在屬於學術研究的前瞻研究這個領域跟我們在AI的應用推廣我們需要人才能夠連結到產業界這一類的這個研究計畫實務型的研究計畫我們會做一些不同的這個"},{"start":10932.312,"end":10955.344,"text":"你一定要的,因為你現在完全是基礎科學你完全沒有辦法,因為現在就算我告訴你你上去上網去看嘛老師唯有在產業界當中他如果沒有透過產業界來跟他做一個間接的話光是靠現在基礎科學這些老師我們都知道我們離開博士學完之後二十幾年來我們也是弄過去也是不斷自己study但是那是跟產業的一個關聯所以說AI這個部分在你審核標準以後一定要面臨不一樣"},{"start":10956.264,"end":10956.645,"text":"．綜合AI的學術論理"},{"start":10971.021,"end":10996.274,"text":"他們就做得比你人腦收集資料更好我們是基植於CHAP GPT幫我們收集資料之後往上去發展我們的腦袋瓜 對不對這是他們的觀點這是產業界但是學業界學界你怎麼來如果我今天學生透過CHAP GPT幫我整理一套的訊息那你這個部分你的國科會的論文當中他的學術倫理你怎麼樣來界定你們現在所界定的學術倫理違反是只有八大項那請問用CHAP GPT"},{"start":10998.755,"end":11015.681,"text":"來幫助我做很多資料的收集這個部分我的引用什麼樣的標準這一部分的確像委員講的因為CHAT GPT它最厲害的能力就是它可以生成生成一些本來就不存在的東西那你怎麼辦你現在要不要改你的這個樣態所以將來我們的確要減少你不要將來現在馬上就命令"},{"start":11021.383,"end":11028.289,"text":"現在馬上就明你現在只有這八大項完全沒有辦法符合他的這樣的這算你會造成學校老師跟學生非常大的落差而且你還要去比對現在那個比對之前因為碩士造假比對大家覺得好像好像一句話現在CHECKGBT我當你承認他可以幫你來做很多資料搜尋的時候整個的樣態又不一樣了不是未來現在馬上好不好現在馬上"},{"start":11047.905,"end":11066.297,"text":"馬上就必須要立即做出來,否則我們現在指導的學生我都不知道該怎麼辦。我都不想他指導我出來的學生我怎麼樣跟他做比對,現在已經不是比對的問題。當你承認checkGPT可以幫學生做那個文獻探討的部分,可以幫他做收集的時候,我的citation我要怎麼弄?我要怎麼弄?"},{"start":11068.138,"end":11074.48,"text":"現在6月是碩士論文的旺季好不好 這個東西很重要 然後接下來我還是要問一下嘛 對不對 那你現在原計畫我要請問一下這是你們國科會內部的一個問題當初有個原計畫就是推動可信任生成的AI計畫 112年你們編列了2億多 主委知道這件事吧"},{"start":11095.929,"end":11105.732,"text":"接下來 對不起 你們的前任政委要下台之前也不過在一個禮拜時間馬上編列了7900近8000萬的一個經費過去國科會如果大型的計畫上億的話通常要半年的審核起碼很少數只有一個月的審核你現在是一個禮拜為什麼有這麼急你一個禮拜之內就要求你認賬而且還是沒有經過這樣的一個程序馬上編列8000萬"},{"start":11120.655,"end":11131.26,"text":"你不覺得有這麼急嗎?這個對他說是不是你的挑戰?你不需要一個禮拜之內認定這八千萬的這樣子的一個所謂的計畫這不符合你們過去的一個流程喔你知道這件事嗎?回去查一下吧"},{"start":11137.196,"end":11149.806,"text":"我還是跟委員報告一下齁,因為那個台的,我們一開始發台的是用跨部會屬科法接近是一年的計劃,到今年4月截止,那麼我只告訴你你112、110,你這個流程上面就在我們的新主委上任之前的一個禮拜就核准了這個8000萬的短期計劃,這個流程基本上跟你們過去國會是不一樣的"},{"start":11159.173,"end":11165.74,"text":"所以我必須要很清楚的知道接下來嘛你看嘛你們現在做這個計畫當中你百分之五十要預算說模型經驗我沒有問題百分之八千多萬百分之二十要再收集資料你卻這樣的配比還有你的素養你有百分之二十的經費發在素養上面這個素養的應用你要不要解釋一下還有包括哪些的語言有台語、客語等等之類的"},{"start":11181.536,"end":11183.799,"text":"他是有哪些產業我要求一個禮拜之內把這一個最新在你上任之前一個禮拜就核定的八千萬還有包括你這些的經費的分配給我一個非常完整的報告可以嗎"},{"start":11194.151,"end":11203.682,"text":"可以可以一個禮拜之內請給我還有我剛就特別提到嘛國會負責很多學術界的一個分配好那我要問一下嘛你們現在有這麼大筆經費欸你們真的很像是過手過手的財神一樣啊你們經費完畢之後就給這些地方那我接下來要問這幾個經費當中下面一頁因為時間有關"},{"start":11212.812,"end":11231.708,"text":"這麼多的幾項功我只是隨便舉出幾個你們在很多的各部門當中他們本身就可以做計畫了卻來跟我們國科會申請錢你不覺得這個資源有點重複嗎?數法部本身下面你們所屬的這些機構裡面本身就可以申請你們自己的一個經費為什麼還要來跟國科會?你們這樣資源難道不會有重疊的一個問題嗎?"},{"start":11236.292,"end":11260.742,"text":"不會有資源的部會發包給部會你的資源到底會不會重疊不是依照現在的體制你們合法但是基本上面這個部分就是我所強調的重疊更不要說下面一個還有包括你們的委員會裡面的你們的最下面最後最後的部分你們的這個很多人不對再往下面看到再往下面最後"},{"start":11262.626,"end":11273.92,"text":"還有一個在最後的裡面我們還提到你們的很多子計劃很多單位因為我們都是屬於學校不是這一張我們很多的學校裡面就告訴我們你們的科技辦公室裡面的計劃先給你們的這個科證中心同樣是計劃主持人"},{"start":11278.726,"end":11282.909,"text":"從學校借調然後掌管的這樣一個計畫當中再發包回去給很多時候的子計畫是給一些相關的單位我只認為我為什麼要特別提出來因為國科會我們都在國科會申請計畫計畫的分配計畫的公平性還有一個也擁有大型的計畫當中又分包下去給原來的學校甚至給自己的徒子徒孫這樣的一個系統就是我們說的學法的系統這是學術界覺得非常需要改進的"},{"start":11308.248,"end":11333.083,"text":"所以我認為如果國科會下面所屬的計畫主持人是來自於你們國科會本身然後呢他下面如何把這樣的總計畫發包給下去的子計畫的這一些部分我都要有一段完整的報告讓我們了解是不是我們的資源分配是符合公平透明跟公正的一個原則可以嗎謝謝委員我也不喜歡這個樣子對私生關係應該要迴避國科會內部如果有這種事情我絕對要禁止"},{"start":11337.639,"end":11338.883,"text":"聽到了齁?大家都聽到了齁?對不要養成這種學法"},{"start":11344.821,"end":11350.044,"text":"主委,這就是我們在學術界裡面在申請經費當中每個人就要往總計畫裡面去做那總計畫那個頭是誰?你要師承於那個總計畫你就覺得你可以得到一些子計畫我因為有很多子計畫完畢之後我不管在升等在未來的這個聲望上面我可以但是就只有掌握在幾個子計畫你們下面裡面有非常多從學校借調過來的這裡面整個的系統我希望主委能夠給我一個完整的報告"},{"start":11375.301,"end":11375.321,"text":"吳祖偉"},{"start":11403.076,"end":11405.819,"text":"數位經濟產值預估兩年內要破新台幣一兆元國發會宣布打造軟硬體一條龍的產業鏈並籌備"},{"start":11418.692,"end":11442.688,"text":"AI的生態園區目前AI的生態園區朝北部朝南部本席在前天在經濟委員會質詢了國發會主委的時候我們談到台中市是積極在推動我們高科技的科研區的一個規劃目前大家都如火如荼而且非常的加油"},{"start":11443.328,"end":11466.746,"text":"所以也請國發會將台中納入設置AI的這個生態園區那國發會主委在前天他也一併答應一定會將台中納入規劃那所以本席要請教國科會主委您的看法呢那AI的園區是不是應當要落子在我們的台中請說明"},{"start":11467.967,"end":11481.981,"text":"我們全國各地方政府其實都是在積極在爭取我們會依據各地方的產業特色只要是符合發展的條件的我們在規劃當中都會納入絕對不會偏薄"},{"start":11485.124,"end":11501.393,"text":"對 所以國發委主委認為臺中的條件非常的優那麼我們也看到黃創辦人他昨天在發表AI主題演講的時候他提到16所大學其中的名單裡頭就有我的母校我非常的光榮我們的東海大學"},{"start":11504.155,"end":11506.456,"text":"東海大學也是中部地區唯一一所"},{"start":11533.654,"end":11534.635,"text":"我們一定會協助的"},{"start":11558.378,"end":11586.295,"text":"同時最近包括了輝達的總部大家都如火如荼在爭取在我們這樣子的條件我相信臺中也是最好的選擇地點我們也希望能夠提案的時候也能夠完成落子在我們的臺中我相信臺中有這個條件也有這個能力去發揚光大主委你的看法呢"},{"start":11586.935,"end":11607.421,"text":"主要是回答他認為適合設置他研發總部的地點我們都一定會盡量協助地方來完成對,台中你也是協助我們盡量會協助所以我們也希望得到美好的一個成果那接下來本期要針對我們今天的主題也就是詐騙"},{"start":11608.641,"end":11609.241,"text":"我們看到末端就很緊張"},{"start":11638.098,"end":11658.851,"text":"檢察官、法官也被詐騙搞的案件就多得不得了在這樣的情況之下我想在根源最重要請教主委跟訴發部針對於AI以及反詐騙的工作結合你政府要怎麼樣來協助在技術上面你可以怎麼樣來協助打詐請做說明"},{"start":11660.239,"end":11660.899,"text":"數位發展部列席"},{"start":11686.224,"end":11687.285,"text":"你讓他有一個標的物非常清楚吧?"},{"start":11709.055,"end":11735.948,"text":"同樣也是我們現在在內政委員會在審查的這個打詐專法那針對於網路的這個社群媒體的這個廣告那將來也會要求這個網路社群平台不管是Meta也好Google也好採取類似實名制的要經過一定的認證之後他才能放廣告換句話說他的廣告來源是可以追尋的也可以清楚來源他辨別他的真偽那這個是速發部不管在法規方面或在技術方面會盡力的朝這個方向來做"},{"start":11736.948,"end":11760.003,"text":"謝謝你的回答你針對這三項也是我們之前討論過我也希望你將你們的這個相識的書面資料給本席他的進程怎麼做方案怎麼做書面資料給本席我們一起希望民眾可以得到安心那最後一個議題就是諸位本席要請教AI的時代來臨剛剛我跟郭部長經濟部長討論他說他上任後要盤點電力"},{"start":11764.085,"end":11792.15,"text":"但他今天說如果AI加入他還要重新盤點他的時間點在7月中旬7月15日這個會期結束前他會告訴社會大眾我們的電力夠不夠我們的能源配比要怎麼做所以一樣的議題要請教主委也就是目前我們看到我們的電力的部分平均用電平均我們是增長大概會每年大概2.7%"},{"start":11793.67,"end":11810.661,"text":"但是經濟部有告訴我們如果加入AI是會超過3%以上在這樣的情況之下電力跟能源是我們最重要的主軸所以本席要請教吳主委也就是我們推動的AI的園區那裡的電力的穩定"},{"start":11812.722,"end":11816.885,"text":"這非常重要所以你們整個橫向的組織當然也不是只有你國防會經濟部、環境部如果有要檢討非核家園包括修法等我把這個議題提出因為電力等於是國力你可以贊同這個議題嗎"},{"start":11831.346,"end":11831.386,"text":"同意"},{"start":11845.871,"end":11849.892,"text":"所以在橫向的時候他們在研議因為本席告訴你這個時間點也就是郭部長剛剛回答7月15號以前他會將這個能源配比跟將這個電力的需求量要告訴社會大眾所以這個一個多月的時間是非常重要我也希望您扮演一個重要的角色 好嗎"},{"start":11869.699,"end":11871.201,"text":"是 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝楊瓊英委員 呃 諸位請回 我們接下來請林楚英委員"},{"start":11887.875,"end":11892.517,"text":"謝謝美麗的主席有請我們國科會吳朱偉以及我們數發部葉長賜請吳朱偉葉次長"},{"start":11902.711,"end":11908.255,"text":"主委好我想其實對於AI的世代來臨全球都在面臨準備剛剛包括我們主席有特別提到世界各國現在都針對AI在制定相關的法令但是我們都知道在AI的這個過程當中包括像日本他2024年要推智慧財產權的推進計畫"},{"start":11922.503,"end":11929.304,"text":"主要的原因就是AI的過程當中到底哪些部分是AI生成而這些生成的過程當中有沒有牽涉到所謂剛剛也有前面一些委員講到的抄襲那麼在這個部分到底我們怎麼樣來保護智慧財產那麼您在報告當中也寫了但是怎麼樣的來制定尤其是我現在知道蠻多不只是論文有些學生現在是直接用ChatGPT來寫作業我想這個大概很多家長都知道"},{"start":11952.028,"end":11968.273,"text":"甚至於老師也知道那這樣的東西到底還有沒有著作權他先去爬梳了別人的東西之後畫畫成他自己的我先一併問完因為我認為他也許沒有答案但是現在我們接下來的下一個世代的時候我們如何來制定這恐怕也不是只有郭"},{"start":11969.053,"end":11973.837,"text":"國發會、國科會、書發部甚至於經濟部這可能是一個大災問但是有一個我們現在面臨的問題是什麼最近這幾天在炒說行動基地台的增設是不是在監控全民我現在就一個大家每天都會用到的Google MapGoogle Map為什麼可以告訴我們哪邊是藍線哪邊是黃線哪邊是紅線主委你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":11996.294,"end":12014.546,"text":"因為我們所有的使用Google Map的人都同意他收集你的那個位置資料所以他就可以算出你的移動的速度是這是因為你同意的對所以你就可以得到他的服務是這是商業運作的模式好所以一定要當事人同意他才可以"},{"start":12015.951,"end":12033.122,"text":"這個原則大家都非常清楚但是如果沒有知道這個過程的時候大家就會說我被Google監控了嗎可是你可能不知道你在使用這個APP之前坦白說不管你要不要啦你要用他就跟你說來請打勾有幾個人真正的去看過"},{"start":12036.664,"end":12041.306,"text":"沒有你說不同意他就不讓你用就這樣對沒錯同樣的就像我們在使用很多的電信還有網路的時候都是同樣一個狀況你同意給他用用完之後他怎麼用你不知道那麼接下來我們在運用AI技術的時候同樣的也會面臨這樣的問題那就是我在訓練你AI到底是訓練還是監控這條紅線踩在哪裡我不知道在場的不論是"},{"start":12066.479,"end":12084.908,"text":"主委又或者數位部有想好了嗎?有方向了嗎?因為我們知道的是前一任的吳主委他說要慢慢來但是今天主委您說10月份我們就要來處理距離10月份現在只剩下不到三個多月"},{"start":12087.369,"end":12104.336,"text":"這個部分如何來化解疑慮但是又如何不會被無限上綱其實本席的意思是現在因為監控的題目剛好被拿出來是監控還是被做科技運用科技使用你說"},{"start":12105.436,"end":12120.416,"text":"人民如果同意就沒有這個問題但是現在我們都知道很多應用業者的潛規則其實某種程度上我們已經先同意他使用了他不會再來問我第二次我要拿去做其他事"},{"start":12120.896,"end":12142.043,"text":"甚至於很多方間的通訊、通信、網路、科技的業者他們在使用我們的這些通訊的資料的時候我們都知道如果是大數據去識別化它其實是一個寶藏那在這樣的過程當中到底科技運用跟資訊監控的那一條線在哪裡?"},{"start":12143.571,"end":12162.244,"text":"報告委員,委員舉的這個Google Map的確是非常好的例子也就是說在產業發展以及人權的保障上面我們要取得一個平衡因為這個是很好用的一個軟體很好用的服務所以我們如果限制他不准收集我們的資料那他就不可能會有GoogleMap這種導航還有入礦的這個服務"},{"start":12165.126,"end":12192.174,"text":"但是我們要允許他使用你的資料的時候我們法律上一定要規範他不能夠拿去做非法的用途其他我們還有很多其他法律也不是只有AI基本法那些法律就是你濫用個資的時候我們要有辦法去制裁把他繩之以法所以讓Google他就不會去做他不會去洩漏這些個資所以我們就是同步的希望能夠規範在運用這些的時候要遵守我們所有的法律"},{"start":12192.614,"end":12205.797,"text":"除了遵守法律法規之外另外的我也提醒主委就是我們現在全球化的情況底下我們各行各業使用AI或是未來使用AI或者是接下來這一半我們現在使用到網際網路的部分很多的產業都在運用這些大數據也要跟產業來做座談瞭解產業真正的需求而不是因為最近在野黨在打監控一個話倒下下來"},{"start":12219.741,"end":12220.021,"text":"主委請回"},{"start":12250.503,"end":12250.663,"text":"范雲委員"},{"start":12266.138,"end":12278.206,"text":"委員好主委應該是快午安了我想今天早上大家的主題都非常的就是集中了那就是從黃仁勳然後AI產業的革新那想知道就是國科會在這裡扮演的角色以及準備的程度那因為剛剛有委員好像質疑說我們國科會這個泰德計畫是不是有什麼弊端或者是是不是什麼徒子徒孫"},{"start":12295.217,"end":12312.604,"text":"我是想釐清一下因為我理解我們之前的前主委講到泰德計畫的時候他的發動是科技匯報這個部分就是說相關的國科會是扮演一定的角色是因為我們前主委的身份重疊所以他是一個國家隊的概念這樣沒錯吧"},{"start":12317.744,"end":12336.682,"text":"國家隊我不知道它的定義是什麼您還沒有了解這個部分喔 那個主委您功課要再加強喔因為我想要澄清一下至少我知道我們那個前主委講的部分的時候是一個國家隊的概念所以它基本上跟國科會一般的計畫申請的方式是不大一樣的"},{"start":12337.383,"end":12362.146,"text":"因為一般請請方式我也申請過國科會超過10次的研究案初審、複審各方面其實是非常嚴謹的就是主計畫、子計畫這部分都有相關的規定所以任何學術領域、政治領域可能都有學霸、政霸但是國科會的整個審查公開透明沒有得到計畫的人還可以申訴等等這應該都是非常嚴謹的吧是"},{"start":12362.867,"end":12364.348,"text":"我那時候回答就是說有這種私生關係給計畫這個是不好的"},{"start":12381.323,"end":12383.445,"text":"主計劃本來就可以自己找子計劃的人那他被審查的話本來就是都要經過初審、複審這樣沒錯吧?"},{"start":12398.937,"end":12425.131,"text":"是 那個一定程序一定都有所以如果主計畫他要找跟他一個很熟的就是教授剛好是他學生這不在你們規範的範圍嘛重點就是說審查的過程是公開、透明、初審、複審是這樣沒錯吧這個應該都有可是我剛剛坐在那邊聽就是會冒出冷汗想說好像怪怪的哪裡好啦 那剛剛重點是在講泰德那泰德是國家隊沒錯吧"},{"start":12428.215,"end":12431.701,"text":"所以他又跟我們一般國歌會的計畫申請的方式不一樣嗎?這樣沒錯吧?"},{"start":12434.255,"end":12462.861,"text":"應該是不一樣請主委多了解一下這整個泰德的這個國家隊的這個過程那你們的網頁其實都有說得非常清楚之前我們前主委也都有跟大家解釋過那我今天想問的是其實剛剛很多人問過這個 AI 基本法那因為你已經公開提出說是10月底前嘛可是那個部分應該是你們國會會提出還沒有到行政院通過吧還沒有就是要提到行政院"},{"start":12463.541,"end":12472.591,"text":"那我了解喔那我想今天因為前面的委員都問過了我也是想提醒的事情是其實歐盟的這個AI Act花了4年的時間那我們台灣從發想到就是您要提出的這個時間準備了多久可以跟我們大家講一下嗎"},{"start":12484.462,"end":12499.669,"text":"所以一年之內我們能不能夠趕上歐盟而且剛剛很多委員講過其實AI的發展也是日新月異我一方面期待也希望盡快可是一方面其實也會擔心就是說到底準備好了沒有那先回來講那您認為這個如果台灣要有一個AI最核心要處理的是什麼"},{"start":12509.753,"end":12521.84,"text":"有一個法就是要規範您認為最核心要規範的是什麼東西最核心要規範的就是能夠盡量去防止假訊息詐騙這些防止假訊息詐騙是然後能夠同時促進現在台灣AI產業的發展"},{"start":12528.204,"end":12530.466,"text":"我自己的看法就是歐盟的AI的重點是在風險分級管理"},{"start":12549.94,"end":12559.107,"text":"您們現在是用指引的方式處理我覺得是非常好可是這裡面滿最重要的就是要區分風險低的AI相關的部分跟風險高的不知道主委您覺得風險高的AI相關的應用是在哪個領域"},{"start":12571.68,"end":12600.138,"text":"風險最高的?風險最高的就是我剛剛提到能夠會侵犯人權會侵犯人權也是啊會造成傷害在根據歐盟的這個風險就是最高的其實就是嚴重威脅人民的生命生活等基本權利不能接受的風險那包含就是可能抓取個人臉部影像像我們知道對岸就有做這種那這種就是被需要被禁止使用的等等"},{"start":12600.618,"end":12626.5,"text":"那風險低的最低的您認為風險最低的AI的應用是什麼?那個就是大家不喜歡的一大堆的垃圾郵件、廣告等等然後在什麼藝術表現上面做假這些這個風險也許不高就是沒有侵犯到造成人的傷害但是它也是不應該的事情"},{"start":12626.94,"end":12652.1,"text":"了解齁那在這個歐盟的這個部分齁時間到了風險低的就像聊天機器人比如說跟消費者互動的這其實就是資訊提供但是喔這個裡面也要公開透明喔要讓互動的人知道這是跟一個機器人在互動然後如果是deepfake的話那就必須要揭露這是deepfake比如這兩天我們有看到習近平告訴大家要記得六四齁這個就是齁就是說"},{"start":12656.543,"end":12682.038,"text":"講話的聲音就像他在講那這種就要揭露他是低風險的所以我想風險分級管理是重要的啦那歐盟的AI有個重點就是剛剛講到的禁止使用的部分是最嚴重那還有一個就是創建沙盒鼓勵創新產業需要創新可是又有一個人工智慧監管沙盒可以在可控的環境中減輕任何的風險識別風險"},{"start":12683.719,"end":12710.465,"text":"這也是歐盟的AI就是基本法裡面的一個重點那我想這部分大家的期待都有那另外一個剛剛林一金委員跟林楚瑩委員都有問到的我也非常關心的就是他跟我們民主任性跟新聞的關係因為新聞如果在AI這裡面被侵權的話那他沒有辦法維持產業的健康的話我們就只剩下假訊息了"},{"start":12710.905,"end":12738.408,"text":"因為新聞至少還有專業的篩選過有編輯內部的流程所以這都是需要資源的投入那如果新聞的產業受到傷害然後沒有辦法保護自己的不管是叫做著作權或等等的話那其實會對台灣的民主任性有很大的傷害那我剛剛我們講到的泰德那我不知道您曉不曉得紐約的美國八家報紙向OpenAI跟微軟提告"},{"start":12738.848,"end":12739.329,"text":"主委您知道嗎?"},{"start":12750.667,"end":12770.552,"text":"這個特定的事件我不知道那您可以多了解一下顯然主委在AI這題上還可以很多事那我想我們的泰德因為您剛剛不大知道如果您不會回答可以請您的部署回答我們的泰德訓練過程中網站都有寫有用中央社ETtoday、光華雜誌、金週刊有沒有付費授權呢?"},{"start":12772.3,"end":12801.126,"text":"對,我們剛剛談如果需要付費我們都有付費對,非常好其實我跟你們所知的我知道你們有處理我覺得這是一個非常好的一個示範就是你們非常的告訴大家你的訓練資料中只要是商業的你們有處理相關的議題我覺得這個部分是最佳示範所以主委可以肯定一下你們下面這個泰德團隊目前有做一個最佳示範那歐盟的AI Act也要求要遵守歐盟著作權相關的"},{"start":12801.886,"end":12801.946,"text":"翁曉琳委員"},{"start":12841.874,"end":12843.625,"text":"主席好,有請主委好,有請吳主委"},{"start":12849.11,"end":12869.957,"text":"委員好是吳主委好很高興我們在立法院這個場合碰面那過去我都稱您吳副校長然後也很敬佩您在這個在資通電機方面的這個成就那今天您擔任國科會主委那想必責任非常重大尤其是針對現在大家談的這個AI"},{"start":12873.118,"end":12873.158,"text":"是嗎?是。"},{"start":12889.068,"end":12903.211,"text":"對,因為我看了這個現在的委託國科會來研擬AI基本法然後當成是AI法制的主要負責的機關應該是在112年4月份的時候當時有召開一個協調會議跨部會的會議然後當時就訂定了就是說是由國科會來負責AI法制分組"},{"start":12914.413,"end":12929.481,"text":"我必須說這個決定應該是在舊政府的時候的決定那對於新政府的這個現在你們新政府剛上台那對於像這樣子的一個分工不知道您是否覺得是適合的適合的"},{"start":12932.594,"end":12942.117,"text":"是適合的可是吳主委坦白說我剛剛進來我聽到您跟前委員的質詢對話其實我很擔心因為我認為其實國科會在過去這麼多年來其實並沒有主管像AI基本法這麼重要的法也就是你們目前主管的法律有哪些可以告訴我嗎以前應該我們有協助過科技基本法還有呢"},{"start":12961.926,"end":12987.659,"text":"科技基本法的架構其實跟AI基本法還是不一樣你看這個人工智慧基本法草案現在幾個委員的提出然後乃至於這個日後行政院要提出來的相關版本坦白說我很懷疑就是國科會到底有沒有這個能力可以去承擔這個法制的重責大任以目前國科會的法制你們叫法制處嗎還是叫法制組"},{"start":12989.462,"end":13016.904,"text":"你們是法規會還是就是你們現國科會裡面負責法制的單位是叫什麼單位我們是前瞻處前瞻處是前瞻處裡面有多少個法律專業的科學各位報告那國科會裡面內部有法規會然後我們前瞻處裡面呢我們的一科負責相關的法規的一些嚴禮所以呢目前來講的話有關基本法或太空法"},{"start":13017.54,"end":13039.087,"text":"那現在最近要推動的相關的這個AI基本法那都是在前瞻處裡面的我們一科的這個同仁一科裡面有幾位是真的法律專業的同仁那目前來講話所以我們科長的話以外呢我本身來講話在這方面也有一些策略那我們會結合相關的我們內部的法規會還有我們國會的相關因為我來之前我大概上網"},{"start":13045.509,"end":13064.792,"text":"你們國科會的法規會裡面只有一個應該是一個科長吧一個科長而且還今天執行秘書然後再一個專任助理好像頂多只有三位同仁那麼這個法你剛剛講的那個前瞻處我想大概裡面真的學法律的專業的同仁也不多"},{"start":13065.353,"end":13083.2,"text":"但像這樣的一個重要的法案尤其它未來它是跟整個產業的發展緊密相關的其實我真的是認為說比較適合的主管機關可能還是放在經濟部會比較適合甚至我真覺得數位發展部大概也沒有那個能力可以未來做統整這個去督促各個機關來訂定相關法案的這樣的一個任務你們看在這個"},{"start":13095.185,"end":13097.267,"text":"你們報告第12頁裡面有講說未來國科會會後續持續追蹤各部會的法規修訂進度"},{"start":13102.765,"end":13121.243,"text":"我真的很懷疑國科會之後會有這個能力可以去追蹤其他部會的法規修訂進度嗎這個層級難道不應該拉到行政院的層級至少政務委員吧由政務委員來督導看看各部會有沒有配合AI基本法來制定相關法規我會認為比較適合"},{"start":13126.548,"end":13144.9,"text":"我們在行政院現在有三位政委其實是一起在負責相關的一些法規的制定所以還有那個林明鑫政委他是法律專長然後我們還有國發會的劉靜卿吳主委這麼說好了我基本上我是希望能夠減輕國科會的負擔"},{"start":13146.681,"end":13150.784,"text":"國科會應該是要把你們的這個任務放在更重要怎麼樣去規劃國家的前瞻技術科學的研究發展而不應該放在去制定這個AI基本法當成AI基本法的這個主管機關因為這不是你們的擅長這也不是你們的專業但是我覺得放在數發部也不適合"},{"start":13171.018,"end":13171.078,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13186.3,"end":13186.32,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13204.502,"end":13220.017,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝翁曉琳委員主委請回好 我們接下來請高金素美委員高金素美高金素美委員不在我們請鄭振前鄭振前鄭振前委員不在我們請邱志偉委員"},{"start":13231.942,"end":13235.312,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國科會吳朱偉好 有請吳朱偉好 葉次長"},{"start":13241.141,"end":13262.671,"text":"委員好吳主委你好從報告來看人才的衝勢在你們在2018、2021臺灣AI行動計畫裡推動成果臺清教程AI創新研究中心那除了這四所大學之外還沒有在未來比如說中山或其他國立大學有設立AI創新研究中心的計畫"},{"start":13264.7,"end":13284.612,"text":"那個計畫是在好幾年前啊現在我們就是經過那段時期的發展以後其實現在我們國會資助的全國的這個AI的研究各個學校都已經有了應該每一個國立大學、世紀大學都要普設所謂的這個AI創新研究中心你們這個經費你們來協助或這個中央來協助那你們在"},{"start":13289.375,"end":13290.758,"text":"從2023到2026的這個發展主軸裡面也提倡人才的優化跟擴增嘛 對不對"},{"start":13297.913,"end":13299.574,"text":"你另外在職跟就業培訓的這個面向你幫他拿走"},{"start":13320.083,"end":13321.365,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":13339.418,"end":13353.804,"text":"總統小企業導入AI轉型其實是需要我們的科技產業來協助你怎麼做你要講齁我有講過我在上任時的那個記者會我已經宣布我在三個月內要提出這個方案"},{"start":13355.245,"end":13355.465,"text":"蘇發部 葉市長"},{"start":13377.884,"end":13403.125,"text":"你們報告裡面AI生態園區這很好我瞭解是在北又一座南一座對不對我們大概不會用我們的概念就是我們這個當然第一個是部長提出的概念我還在跟國發會在商量國發會有提出這個概念在他們這個工作報告裡面有提到所以這個未來你們急速要進速去推動我沒有意見"},{"start":13404.346,"end":13429.662,"text":"那南我是強力希望設在高雄是首先跟委員報告就是我們現在這個園區的規劃會著重在生態而不是園區當然是生態啦生態意思就是說這些產業它不管在哪裡我們希望能夠投注資源讓它能夠串接在一起所以可能重要的地方不是選址而是說這些產業要提供給它足夠的算力足夠的資料跟足夠的但是你要有相關的產業都在周邊嘛"},{"start":13431.489,"end":13458.565,"text":"對當然產業的聚落的實體發展因為特別是AI產業它跟國際的廠大概都會有很大的連結我們不會強制要求這個某一個廠家他搬到哪一個地方去我瞭解但是你要現狀有AI聚落已經成形了或未來會有很多的對它就是會為我們重點投資的對象招商能力對這個AI或者是這個半導體招商最積極最有效率就是陳其邁市長嘛"},{"start":13460.266,"end":13473.921,"text":"對嗎?你在這個軟體園區,然後在我這個角落科學園區都積極招商嘛。事業大廠你說輝達有可能在這個設預算中心,未來這個Super Michael也可能嘛,對不對?"},{"start":13474.942,"end":13477.123,"text":"全體委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":13502.828,"end":13521.874,"text":"只要有AI的…天理就是說我們要知道天理變幻莫測但是可超出在我的我們要積極努力所以我一而再再而三希望說你們慎重考慮設在這個高雄最好的條件"},{"start":13523.058,"end":13541.266,"text":"我們不會設立一個實體的園區但是只要有AI產業的地方那高雄市我們非常重要的一個部分我們副市長羅達是有點清楚啊對 那另外我們這個前任的這個次長也在當高雄的副市長所以我們都有非常的好的聯繫沒有問題所以這個再一分鐘齁你那個VPN的問題啊"},{"start":13543.82,"end":13562.018,"text":"VPN的問題這個怎麼樣去防止這個比如說你要怎麼樣導入AI預防性通報下架你們都有這個情況現在很多都是用VPN繼續在使用這個論壇那你們對VPN這部分還有很多的廣告這變成監管的漏洞這個你們怎麼去處理"},{"start":13563.689,"end":13588.262,"text":"首先跟委員報告我們的理解就是VPN它並不是一個產業那很多產業那它都有可以產出VPN那你們辦法沒有不是產業就不能管制嗎?它沒有辦法就任何大家對於這個資訊系統大概有一定的能力的人它都可以產出VPN那只是說我們不管是從兒少角度來看的話重點是說我們要找到如果是這個兒少主管機關發現的錯誤或是有害的資訊"},{"start":13592.043,"end":13608.21,"text":"第8條就是說你們可以主動去出席調查那個是從ISP來做阻斷那不是VPN的問題相同的概念啦我希望你們積極可以主動出席去調查啦而少的性剝削的專業認定是在衛福部你們跟衛福部再去討論一下怎麼樣把這個做到最好的效果"},{"start":13617.914,"end":13636.9,"text":"其實就它預防通報下降在最快時間之內完成對 我們會盡快加快這個行政程序沒有問題另外你這個訴發部你現在要通報這個打詐打詐的這個通報網對不對上個月建制打爆通報網通報查詢網那你跟這警政署的這個這個全民詐騙 全民防騙網哪裡不一樣"},{"start":13639.761,"end":13639.981,"text":"議員吳誠文、數位發展部"},{"start":13659.368,"end":13659.688,"text":"謝謝邱志偉委員"},{"start":13680.923,"end":13681.784,"text":"蘇清泉委員徐欣穎委員蘇發部"},{"start":13702.006,"end":13719.128,"text":"委員好市長好本期本來這個可能沒有要找您但剛剛聽到我們邱委員的質詢我想招商第一名連續三年五年我可以先請教你全台灣招商第一名是哪個縣市"},{"start":13720.209,"end":13731.856,"text":"這是有統計的新竹縣新竹的科學園區我想這也是全國知名的剛剛講到輝達黃仁勳總裁昨天才一個新聞他要來新竹縣落腳所以AI園區最重要"},{"start":13746.104,"end":13773.514,"text":"有先天後天的條件跟資源的新竹縣所以我請您您是剛上任嗎?不是本來就一直在數位部那很好啊那您應該可以了解新竹科學園區的資源那邊的廠商加上我們那邊的腹地所以我花一點點時間也希望次長可以來了解你們在做整個的規劃的時候新竹縣"},{"start":13774.494,"end":13780.241,"text":"我們新竹地區呢也請你們慎重考慮我們所有的規劃都不會漏掉新竹對對對對對好謝謝請您回座本席請這個國科會吳主委好有請吳主委"},{"start":13790.424,"end":13807.637,"text":"委員好吳主委好本期看到你們的報告裡面有講到我們國科會從去年4月開始推動了一個叫可信任深層式的AI對話引擎這個是要念泰德嗎?"},{"start":13808.867,"end":13810.529,"text":"提經獲得初步成果,它已經可以與CHAT GPT-3.5相當。"},{"start":13831.247,"end":13850.373,"text":"哇 這個我要了解怎麼評估的還有現在我問了很多人好像沒有人知道那你已經說可以與確的GPT3.5相當你回答一下好不好主委剛上任還不知道這個可能前期研發的是不是這是副主委嗎我們執密科技辦的執行秘書"},{"start":13855.985,"end":13856.686,"text":"那我請教一下"},{"start":13881.886,"end":13895.871,"text":"哪些人用過?有哪些人用過?還在研發階段?我們現在在4月15日公開之後應該是有快18000個下載所以現在可以給我們大家去下載試用是不是?不過目前的使用用法您先確認是不是可以給大家下載我們在軟體都找得到嗎?"},{"start":13906.474,"end":13908.255,"text":"本席想請教主委,我們如果要發展AI"},{"start":13924.682,"end":13941.445,"text":"我們需要很大型的data center但是我們在整個計畫中大家我們對於這個資料中心運算中心好像沒有很大的琢磨像我們發展這個我們不需要很大的這些資料中心跟運算中心嗎"},{"start":13941.986,"end":13968.933,"text":"有,我們其實在新竹國網中心已經有了那是不是不好意思主席再給我30秒那所以我們如果資料中心需要有龐大的這個計算力呢相對也要有非常龐大穩定的電力所以台灣缺電嚴重呢這個對未來AI的發展是一大隱憂但這應該不是你們的事情所以我們會協調經濟部來做這個事"},{"start":13971.854,"end":13991.142,"text":"對 這個部分我想我在這邊也是提醒那所以你們的這個資料中心跟運算中心整個在國網中心國網中心是我們國研院下面的一個研發中心那它會建置資料中心資料中心裡面會有運算設備就是我們講的超級電腦會放在資料中心好 OK 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":14000.167,"end":14016.723,"text":"謝謝徐欣盈委員 謝謝好 主委請回我們接下來請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在我們請蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在我們請吳春成 吳春成 吳春成委員不在"},{"start":14018.462,"end":14035.17,"text":"今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另外有吳春成委員、李博毅委員、鍾嘉斌委員、林倩琦委員、牛許廷委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議做如下決定報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":14036.531,"end":14054.697,"text":"委員所提的書面質詢及相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及為其答覆的部分請相關機關盡速書面答覆報文會兼議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝各位"},{"start":14072.662,"end":14076.109,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14079.855,"end":14109.855,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":14109.916,"end":14110.081,"text":"主席。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}