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對還要輪值啊對對中科了解南科的這個這個繁紅的狀況嗎"},{"start":144.096,"end":172.85,"text":"了解了解因為我們都彙整到我們的那個國科會我們都是一起去討論的那如果南科發生這個自災性的這個洪災的時候我要打電話去中科請中科來支援啊不是不是我們是規劃的時候一起彙整而已這個你們要檢討一下我現在才知道說為什麼是中科負責全國科學園區未來科學園區越來越多連高雄屏東嘉義都有沒有跟委員報告是輪值可能明明就會換到那個"},{"start":175.47,"end":200.071,"text":"你應該是一個獨立的由南科有一個抗災防洪小組中科有一個小組然後竹科有一個小組他不可能輪值去管全國的科學園區的防洪或者這個防洪的規劃是跟我們報告他是輪值彙整其實是各個園區自行規劃是這個你們自錄再檢討一下是好那個今天的報告請教一下經濟部副大次長"},{"start":203.217,"end":227.673,"text":"四月份北中南東各區召開防汛準備會議我認為應該是各縣市你應該落實到各縣市比如說南區來說南區裡面包括澎湖、嘉義、南對不對到屏東這個各縣市的防洪狀況不一樣我認為你應該落實到各縣市多幾次的會議而已要說得很清楚"},{"start":229.544,"end":243.082,"text":"比方說這個高雄你有點寶溪治水防洪那個還有這個後津溪治水防洪屏東還有屏東的問題 嘉義的問題 台南的問題啊你不能一個區分市場你就把它辦完了沒有"},{"start":244.054,"end":268.866,"text":"跟委員所說明的我們每一個縣市會從核酸分屬先檢討如委員所說的方式每一個流域每一個風險點都盤點出來那至於說四個分區的部分是把每一個縣市檢討出來可改善的部分在當地馬上就要處理了我認為應該是這樣擴大到各區分散到各區然後縣市所長都要列席"},{"start":270.359,"end":275.873,"text":"因為縣市首長是第一線的指揮官所以我希望說要落實到各縣市"},{"start":276.755,"end":303.146,"text":"是 我們現在看到的話各縣市的首長大部分都會在訊息之前召開當地的縣市的黃訊的會議那是地方型的 那是縣市主管的但你跟中央地方在訊息之中要怎麼合作我希望要落實以縣市為主好 謝謝委員建議 再往內進進另外啊 對抽水站跟這個水門跟抽水機的管理你現在都委外對不對"},{"start":304.825,"end":332.833,"text":"基本上我們有自己的所謂的自己可以動用的這個抽水機很大部分是委外我知道嘛每一個抽水站大部分它有它這個委外的公司委外有管理員在那邊管理這個抽水站那個有時候開這個閘門要打開的時候沒打該關的時候沒關會造成自災所以這部分你要怎麼去檢討這個廠商的責任第一個所有的設施包括移動式的抽水機我們有一個QR code"},{"start":333.513,"end":359.305,"text":"他現在在哪個地方 他的妥善率怎麼樣他這個馬上可以回傳 聯繫的機制一定要很完整讓里長 讓區長能夠迅速能夠掌握到這個水閘門的狀況什麼時候開 什麼時候關 什麼時候閉所以這部分是不是可以落實一下這個對水閘門或者這個戳水站 戳水機相關的管理可以嗎這個我們已經有在 但是委員所說的我們在盡興"},{"start":360.834,"end":373.071,"text":"另外這個再生水廠原本是在高雄是沒有在北高雄是沒有是臨海跟鳳山嘛那我這邊不曉得講了幾次之後才多了這個鋼橋那請內政部來好了鋼橋跟這個楠梓"},{"start":377.236,"end":391.073,"text":"好 那目前這兩個再生水廠當然是使你有這個汙水下水道 雨水下水道你才能有再生水廠對不對對好 再生水廠在這個市中心或者是在都會區市商隊可以的"},{"start":392.222,"end":418.502,"text":"所以才有這個條件可以設立這個南子戰車水場跟鋼橋戰車水場那也是我的大力爭取才有的這戰車水場是日後要提供於產業園區的廠商所使用對不對目前相關的辦法 比如說你們修正的戰車水辦法這個只要兩萬度以上的工業大戶 對不對要五成以上的這個戰車水的使用是不是有這個規定"},{"start":420.206,"end":448.631,"text":"好 如果這樣的規定的話 未來越來越多廠商進駐 而且都是大廠它每年一定超過兩萬度 你舊廠要新擴 或者你要蓋新廠比如台積電 未來可能有一廠 二廠 三廠 四廠 五廠還有相當的 相關其他的供應鏈也會進駐那你都要求到兩萬噸以上 他們都符合這個條件那你會不會供不應求 戰士水目前以剛巧的狀況來看 跟男子"},{"start":452.587,"end":477.039,"text":"如果全部的廠商用水通常用戰生水目前有這個供不應求的狀況是存在的我是特別針對這個所謂男子產業園區跟路族跟這個橋樓科學園區跟白浦未來白浦產業園區那麼多大型廠商的進駐你現在用這個條例以每年每三年來檢討一次而且還有五成的戰生水但你未來沒有辦法供應他如果違法怎麼辦"},{"start":480.302,"end":501.938,"text":"跟委員說明 就再生水的部分目前如果產業有這個需求我們會重新來加大再生水的一個供水的一個能量那你的能量就有限啊你剛才教男子我們努力原本是沒有原本是零我至於說才有7萬噸那7萬噸你可以符合未來他需求符合你法律規定的需求嗎的要求嗎對 要用5成以上"},{"start":506.03,"end":533.925,"text":"現在它的價格 我請教你再生水的每度大概多少錢那個以那個鳳山來講它大概是18塊18港橋大概是會到35塊35塊那很多的大廠都在港橋橋頭科學園區以及男子產業園區好 要30塊那你現在一般的供應用水一度多少錢一般的供應用水水價差不多12塊好"},{"start":535.031,"end":538.698,"text":"加上耗水費的14 零五個場上你會選擇什麼"},{"start":544.226,"end":573.411,"text":"那基本上這個耗水費是有針對於說不同的這個用戶的級距若是它回收率太低的話它的費率會更高有一千七百家用水大戶都是工業大戶對不對所以耗水費它對工業大戶也有產生去輸出力另外的它這個再生水的比例也符合這個也要按照這個規定那他們怎麼辦基本上你的供不應求啊市長"},{"start":574.608,"end":591.357,"text":"我們會第一個會請內政部加速那剛剛所提到的那個16座的這個再生水廠的建置之外除此之外因為他不是廠建完他就可以供水因為他要收集到都市的所謂的集中性 據我了解再生水廠的進度遠比他們設廠的進度還慢"},{"start":594.278,"end":610.264,"text":"他們用再生水的時候還沒有供水啊你們給他用未雨綢繆這個狀況如果不是因為我爭取才多了7萬噸否則你這個沒有辦法完成這個達成這個對高科技廠商或者這個用水大戶的這個再生水的供應"},{"start":611.801,"end":637.398,"text":"這部分我想請市長你協調一下這個這個內政部國路署協調一下這個園區管理局那個科學園區管理局相關於園區的治水防洪的作為應該有一個統一的主管機關由經濟部來督導來協調另外因為你們是治水專家嘛國科會不見得治水專家但是國科會"},{"start":638.138,"end":659.608,"text":"那所管的科學園區裡面的這個罰紅制也至關重要啊科學園區不能有淹水的問題啊所以你應該拉高層級由經濟部的這個水利專家經濟部水利署來針對各園區管理局科學園區另外針對這個再淹水的部分怎麼去檢討他的這個供應的問題另外這個"},{"start":662.981,"end":691.073,"text":"污水這個下水道啊污水下水道在內政部我也想請教一下過去都會區啊六都的都會區沒有問題但是六都裡面非都會區啊比方說我的選區是六都裡面高雄市裡面非都會區比方說從這個橋頭以北入竹永安這個彌陀子關比較海線的地方都沒有任何污水下水道的規劃啦這部分這個內政部有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":692.233,"end":717.802,"text":"都計區內我們大概就是依照那個各縣政府提報的計畫來配合來協助來以補助執行至於非都地區目前我們行政院也在討論如何對非都地區的這些聚落室來做一個處理這個目前行政院在研議當中你知道我也想在鹿竹有一個蓋一個這個再生水場但是他沒有污水跟雨水下水道系統他就沒有辦法蓋再生水場"},{"start":720.394,"end":749.193,"text":"這個部分我們回去再來檢討一下啦那當然這個有跟量的問題啦如果那個沾水場實在量很少的時候其實它是完全不符成本的它可能後來算在水價廠商用不起來那你要先建構好污水、雨水、下水道系統才能有足夠的量嘛那你看我的選區全部都是沒有任何污水、下水道的建設規劃甚至沒有開辦這部分中央要協調地方來提出計畫所以我們再跟高雄市我們再來討論好 謝謝"},{"start":751.106,"end":751.127,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時20分）謝謝，請經濟部賴常務次長、國科會林副主委。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：請賴次長、林副主委。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：次長，今天的議題是抗旱和防洪，基本上這是兩個極端的議題，大家都希望風調雨順，但是事實上是天有不測風雲，旱災和水災並不是現在才有，並不是完全因為極端氣候造成的，以前當然有水災也有旱災，但是因為極端氣候造成發生的頻率會增加或規模會擴大，或是它的不可測性會增加，所以以我的觀察，目前抗旱和防洪不可能同時成立，這兩個災害不可能同時發生，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：水太多、水太少有時候一夕之間就反轉，過去很多的紀錄是……"],["邱委員志偉：以long term來看，兩個致災性或是巨大致災不可能同時發生，一定是有間歇性。以發生的頻率來看，我覺得近幾年來有了百年大旱，因為那幾年颱風都沒進來，如果正常性一年有5、6個颱風入境臺灣，那麼帶來的雨會造成致災性水患，反而頻率比較大。","請教國科會副主委，科學園區的防洪是你們負責，還是水利署負責？"],["林副主任委員法正：園區是我們負責。"],["邱委員志偉：是你們負責，但是看你們的報告完全沒有關於園區的防洪計畫，不要說它抗災，防洪計畫就好了，今天你們只請中科列席，為什麼南科沒有來？南科就沒有問題嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：不是，是中科統一負責所有的業務，基本上，我們都是按照輪值的……"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得這個有問題。"],["林副主任委員法正：我們是輪值。"],["邱委員志偉：還要輪值啊！"],["林副主任委員法正：對。"],["邱委員志偉：中科瞭解南科的防洪狀況嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：瞭解？"],["林副主任委員法正：因為我們都是彙整到國科會一起去討論的。"],["邱委員志偉：如果南科發生致災性洪災的時候，我還要打電話去中科，請中科來支援嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：不是，我們是規劃的時候一起彙整而已。"],["邱委員志偉：這個你們要檢討一下，我現在才知道為什麼是中科負責全國的科學園區，未來科學園區會越來越多，連高雄、屏東、嘉義都有。"],["林副主任委員法正：跟委員報告，我們是輪值，可能明年就會換到……我們是半年輪值一次。"],["邱委員志偉：你們應該是獨立的，比如南科有一個抗災防洪小組，中科有一個小組，竹科有一個小組，不可能輪值去管全國科學園區的防洪或者防洪規劃。"],["林副主任委員法正：跟委員報告，它是輪值彙整，其實還是各個園區自行規劃。"],["邱委員志偉：你們的制度再檢討一下。"],["林副主任委員法正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：關於今天的報告請教經濟部賴次長，4月份北、中、南、東各區召開防汛整備會議，我認為你應該要落實到各縣市，比如，以南區來講，南區包括澎湖、嘉義以南到屏東，因為各縣市的防洪狀況不一樣，我認為你應該落實到各縣市，多開幾次會議而已，而且要講得很細，比方，高雄有典寶溪治水防洪，還有後勁溪治水防洪，屏東還有屏東的問題，嘉義有嘉義的問題，臺南有臺南的問題，你不能一個區分四場就要把它辦完。"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，我們每一個縣市會從河川分署先檢討，誠如委員所說的方式，把每一個流域、每一個風險點都盤點出來，至於四個分區的部分是把每一個縣市檢討出來，可改善的部分在當地馬上就要處理了。"],["邱委員志偉：我認為應該是要擴大到各區、分散到各區，而且縣市首長都要列席，因為縣市首長是第一線的指揮官，所以我希望要落實到各縣市。"],["賴次長建信：我們現在看到各縣市首長大部分都會在汛期之前召開當地縣市的防汛會議。"],["邱委員志偉：那是地方型的，那是縣市主管的，跟中央地方之間在汛期中要怎麼合作，我希望要落實以縣市為主。"],["賴次長建信：好，謝謝委員的建議，這個我們再來精進。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，抽水站、水門及抽水機的管理，你們現在都委外，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，我們有自己可以動用的抽水機。"],["邱委員志偉：我知道大部分都是委外，每一個抽水站大部分有委外的公司，委外有管理員在那邊管理抽水站，有時候閘門要打開的時候沒打開，該關的時候沒關，就會致災，所以你要怎麼去檢討這個廠商的責任？"],["賴次長建信：第一個，所有的設施包括移動式的抽水機，我們有一個QR code，它現在在哪個地方、妥善率如何馬上可以回傳。"],["邱委員志偉：現在聯繫的機制一定要很完整，讓里長、區長能夠迅速掌握到水閘門的狀況，什麼時候開、什麼時候關、什麼時候閉，所以是不是可以落實對水閘門或者抽水站、抽水機相關的管理，可以嗎？"],["賴次長建信：這個我們已經有在做，但是針對委員所說的，我們再精進。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，再生水廠原本在北高雄是沒有的，只有臨海和鳳山，我這邊不曉得講了幾次之後才多了岡橋和楠梓，請教內政部，因為有污水下水道、雨水下水道才能有再生水廠，對不對？"],["於副署長望聖：對。"],["邱委員志偉：再生水廠在市中心或是都會區是相對可以的，所以才有這個條件可以設立楠梓再生水廠及岡橋再生水廠，也是我大力爭取才有的，再生水廠是日後要提供給產業園區的廠商所使用。依據目前相關的辦法，比如，你們修正的再生水辦法，只要兩萬度以上的工業大戶要有五成以上的再生水使用，是不是有這個規定？"],["於副署長望聖：有。"],["邱委員志偉：如果有這樣規定的話，未來越來越多廠商進駐，而且都是大廠，它每年一定超過兩萬度，不管舊廠要新擴或是要蓋新廠，比如，台積電未來可能有一廠、二廠、三廠、四廠、五廠，還有其他相關的供應鏈也會進駐，你要求兩萬噸以上，他們都符合這個條件，以目前岡橋和楠梓的狀況來看，你的再生水會不會供不應求？"],["於副署長望聖：跟委員報告，如果全部的廠商用水統統要用再生水，目前供不應求的狀況是存在的。"],["邱委員志偉：我特別針對楠梓產業園區、橋頭科學園區及未來的白埔產業園區，那麼多大型廠商進駐，現在依照這個條例的規定，每三年要檢討一次，而且還要有五成使用再生水，但你未來沒有辦法供應，它如果違法怎麼辦？"],["於副署長望聖：跟委員說明，就再生水的部分，目前如果產業有這個需求，我們會重新加大再生水供水的能量。"],["邱委員志偉：但你的能量就有限啊！岡橋、楠梓原本是沒有、是零，我爭取之後才有7萬噸，7萬噸可以符合未來需求、符合法令規定的要求嗎？要用五成以上。關於價格部分，請問再生水每度大概多少錢？"],["於副署長望聖：以鳳山來講，大概是18塊，岡橋大概會到35塊。"],["邱委員志偉：35塊！很多大廠都在岡橋、橋頭科學園區以及楠梓產業園區，好，要30塊，現在一般的工業用水每度多少錢？"],["賴次長建信：現在的水價差不多12塊。"],["邱委員志偉：加上耗水費呢？"],["賴次長建信：14塊。"],["邱委員志偉：你如果是廠商，你會選擇什麼？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，耗水費有針對不同的用戶級距，若是回收率太低的話，它的費率會更高。"],["邱委員志偉：有1,700家用水大戶都是工業大戶，對不對？"],["賴次長建信：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以耗水費對工業大戶也有產生一定的約束力，另外，再生水的比例也要符合規定，那他們要怎麼辦？你會供不應求啊！次長。"],["賴次長建信：第一個，我們會請內政部加速剛剛所提到的16座再生水廠的建置，除此之外，它不是廠建完就可以供水，因為它要收集到都市集中性的系統再生水，它要接管……"],["邱委員志偉：據我瞭解，再生水廠建廠的進度，遠比他們設廠的進度還慢，他們要用再生水的時候，還沒有供水，你們要讓它未雨綢繆、知道這個狀況，如果不是因為我爭取才多了7萬噸，否則，你沒有辦法達成對高科技廠商或者用水大戶再生水的供應，這部分我想次長，是不是你協調一下內政部國土署、科學園區管理局，對園區治水、防洪的相關作為，應該有統一的主管機關，由經濟部來督導、來協調，因為你們是治水專家嘛！國科會不見得是治水專家，但是國科會所管的科學園區裡面的防洪、治水也至關重要，科學園區不能有淹水的問題，所以你應該是拉高層級，由經濟部的水利專家、經濟部水利署針對各園區管理局、科學園區及針對再生水的部分，整體去檢討其供應的問題。","另外，對於污水下水道，我想請教一下內政部，過去六都的都會區沒有問題，但是六都裡面的非都會區，例如我的選區是高雄市裡面的非都會區，從橋頭以北、路竹、永安、彌陀、梓官，比較海線的地方，都沒有任何污水下水道的規劃，這部分內政部有沒有什麼想法？"],["於副署長望聖：在都計區內，我們大概就是依照各縣政府提報的計畫，配合來協助、予以補助及執行，至於非都地區，目前行政院也在討論如何來對非都地區的這些聚落式進行處理，目前行政院已經在研議當中。"],["邱委員志偉：你知道我也想在路竹蓋一個再生水廠，但是它沒有污水跟雨水下水道系統，就沒有辦法蓋再生水廠。"],["於副署長望聖：這個部分我們回去再來檢討一下啦……"],["邱委員志偉：中央要有經費。"],["於副署長望聖：當然這有量的問題啦！如果那個再生水廠實在量很少的時候，其實它是完全不符成本的，可能它後來算出來的水價，廠商根本用不起。"],["邱委員志偉：你要先建構好污水、雨水下水道系統，才能有足夠的量嘛！你看我的選區全部都是零，沒有任何污水下水道的建設規劃，甚至沒有開辦，這部分中央應該要協調地方來提出計畫。"],["於副署長望聖：我們跟高雄市政府再來討論。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請鄭正鈐委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","陳超明","鍾佳濱","蔡易餘","葉元之","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就「2025年防洪抗旱計\n畫」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}