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國發會主委劉敬卿暨相關人員主席楊昭杰委員瓊音113年5月27日星期一報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定"},{"start":1796.834,"end":1824.486,"text":"討論事項繼續審查一本院委員黃仁等18人已據離島建設條例第13條條文修正草案案決議另定其繼續審查二本院委員陳玉珍等18人已據離島建設條例第3條第7條及第7條之一條文修正草案案決議另定其繼續審查三本院委員陳玉珍等18人已據離島建設條例第5條條文修正草案案決議第5條條文修正通過除第10款修正為警政頓耗消防建設"},{"start":1825.746,"end":1833.64,"text":"第12款至第16款．款序修正為第11款至15款．並將第12款文字修正為災害防救及濫藏、遁號濫墾、遁號濫建之改善。"},{"start":1838.499,"end":1858.605,"text":"外區均詔案通過本院委員陳玉珍等17人履具離島建設條例第10條條文修正草案案決議令定期繼續審查五本院委員蔡玉儀等21人履具離島建設條例第10條之一條文修正草案案決議一委員蔡玉儀等人所提第10條之一條文不予通過為之現行法條文"},{"start":1859.726,"end":1879.725,"text":"為了討論事項所列第3案及第5案必按審查完畢．據審查報告提報委員會討論不需交由黨團協商．並推請楊昭吉委員求因委員會討論時做補充說明主席宣告通過之條文相關法制用於授權主席及議事人員整理5月29日星期三報告事項．邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。．農業部部長曾"},{"start":1883.488,"end":1899.833,"text":"．報告後委員陳亭飛等23人提出質詢．經濟農業部陳部長．相關人即席答覆．決定．登記發言委員．處不在場所外決議．經濟發言完畢．詢答結束．回應林國成．劉建國．林俊憲及陳萬庭．所提書面質詢．列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":1901.013,"end":1929.168,"text":"3.書面質詢和未及答覆部分,請相關單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會。5月30日星期四,報告事項,邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席業務報告業務概況．並備質詢。國發會主委劉金青報告後,委員邱益穎等22人提出質詢,均由國發會劉主委及相關人即席答覆。決定一,登記發言委員,除不帶賞者外,其餘均與發言完畢,詢答結束。二,委員名單的話及整個案題,所提書面質詢,列入記錄刊登公報。"},{"start":1929.908,"end":1941.601,"text":"三 書面執行和未及答覆部分請相當單元一周內書面答覆並附資本會 散會 宣讀完畢好 由於在場委員不足三人我們議事錄就暫不處理繼續進行報告事項請宣讀 邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1952.605,"end":1972.38,"text":"好,我們本日議程排定是經濟部的業務報告那我想首先要恭喜郭之輝部長來接任這個我們的經濟部部長那今天是郭部長第一次到經濟委員會來接受委員的質詢我們是不是鼓掌表達歡迎一下那接下來我們就請郭之輝部長進行報告"},{"start":1998.618,"end":2023.764,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好 自會應邀到貴委員會提出業務報告 深感榮幸以下緊究當前經濟環境及本部施政重點 作額要說明 敬請各位委員不吝視教一 當前的經濟環境 今年全球經濟情勢"},{"start":2025.535,"end":2049.689,"text":"持續釋出正向的訊息美國與大型新興經濟體如巴西、印度等都強勁的復甦克服中國、歐洲等內需疲軟等負面因素4月以來IMF、OECD等國際組織陸續上修今年全球經濟成長預測"},{"start":2053.587,"end":2077.242,"text":"從2.7%上升到3.2%不等儘管今年全球經濟保持穩定成長態勢不過俄烏中東等地緣政治衝突加上歐盟美國對中國發動反傾銷調查以及關稅壁壘以及中國近期祭出的反制措施"},{"start":2078.427,"end":2100.433,"text":"均增添全球經濟走向的不確定性另一方面美中為首的集團對抗正在重塑全球政治及經貿版圖角力戰場也觸及目前若不可當的AI應用市場波士頓顧問公司曾經分析"},{"start":2101.701,"end":2124.064,"text":"AI不只可以提升企業20%的生產效率也能幫助全球減少5%到10%的溫室氣體排放那麼這個相當於歐盟2022年排放的規模另據調研機構OMIDI研究顯示到2028年"},{"start":2127.051,"end":2137.717,"text":"深層式AI市場每一年年複合成長率將高達56%臺灣的半導體優勢再加上資通訊產業成熟的發展都讓臺灣在AI時代極具競爭力隨AI商機持續發酵不僅帶動臺灣出口強勁復甦"},{"start":2151.31,"end":2177.744,"text":"國內外各大預測機構皆看好臺灣今年經濟成長重回3%以上我們行政院主計總署最新預測更高達3.9%二、經濟施政方向及作為面對日益動盪的國際局勢本部遵循總統揭示創新驅動的經濟模式發展五大信賴產業"},{"start":2179.639,"end":2192.684,"text":"在半導體系導的基礎上﹐加速促成AI產業創新﹐產業AI應用﹐推動臺灣成為人工智慧之島﹐並透過數位淨零雙軸轉型力量﹐協助中小企業升級﹐同時細緻處理供電穩定等民生關切議題﹐堅定落實2050淨零轉型的目標﹐"},{"start":2209.558,"end":2221.304,"text":"臺灣已在世界中心站穩腳步本部將在境內關外境外關內的創新經濟發展模式下讓世界走進臺灣的同時延伸臺灣的經濟國力透過供應鏈以大代小"},{"start":2227.591,"end":2245.196,"text":"：附海外設立科技產業園區．帶領中小企業．共同拓展國際市場．加速實現．立足臺灣布局全球．打造臺灣經濟日不落國的願景．針對內需的部分．以臺灣美食"},{"start":2247.13,"end":2261.643,"text":"大健康產業引發養生為主要訴求．帶動服務業附加價值提升．並擴大吸引日本、菲律賓、越南等亞林國家來臺消費．將臨近的經濟體擴大為內需市場的範疇。這裡面一、活絡半導體AI次世代通信信賴產業的發展"},{"start":2274.195,"end":2294.133,"text":"在算力等同國力的年代﹐半導體攸關國家安全﹐經濟安全﹐為鞏固臺灣半導體技術領先地位本部依據《產業創新條例》第10條之二提供前瞻技術研發投資遞減之外將積極促成國際半導體AI大廠"},{"start":2300.134,"end":2320.364,"text":"在臺研發投資與國內廠商共同技術合作同時要求引進國際人才來臺駐點產學合作培育我國高階技術人才隨著先進製程及封裝需求不斷擴大將協助國內業者開發半導體關鍵設備零組件及材料"},{"start":2325.919,"end":2354.707,"text":"目標於117年先進封裝設備自主率產值能夠達到25%半導體材料的自主率產值能夠達到35%另外透過跨部會合作推動精創臺灣方案引導國內IC設計業者投入AI高效能運算車用等新興應用領域擴大臺灣半導體生態系的完整性"},{"start":2356.9,"end":2366.724,"text":"臺灣是少數搭上第一波AI熱潮的國家未來5年AI進入成長的爆發期必須加速臺灣AI產業創新、產業AI應用"},{"start":2369.966,"end":2392.155,"text":"本部爭取國際大廠免費提供AI超級電腦部分篡力資源加速建構臺灣專屬深層式AI核心技術同時協助業者開發深層式AI應用示範案例藉此建立深層式AI自主技術實現AI產業化的目標同時攜手"},{"start":2398.726,"end":2419.339,"text":"產業工協會、國際大廠、學校以及培訓機構公司協力建構產業AI課程預計至117年能夠培育出20萬名AI人才並整合補助、租稅抵減等工具、輔導企業導入AI應用"},{"start":2422.796,"end":2447.883,"text":"提升包括傳統產業以及中小企業在內的製造業AI應用普及率至少達50%5G以及太空產業是未來通往智慧生活應用的主動脈本部將補助業者投入發展國產5G與次世代通訊系統自主技術"},{"start":2449.266,"end":2478.487,"text":"在臺灣打造5G開放網絡、國際電測環境並透過實證場域推動5G應用與次世代通訊系統的商用化同時協助發展低軌衛星、中端地面設備通訊模組以及大型相位陣列天線技術爭取切入國際次世代通訊以及中低軌衛星的供應鏈"},{"start":2480.677,"end":2508.994,"text":"第二部分投資臺灣布局全球打造經濟日不落國本部以境內關外以及境外關內兩大主軸對內擴大投資及消費市場規模對外帶著臺灣製造園區走向世界活絡臺灣經濟發展在境內關外方面我們具備半導體精密機械等完整產業聚落"},{"start":2510.394,"end":2536.584,"text":"國際半導體以及AI指標大廠接來臺灣尋求供應鏈合作機會未來將重點鎖定五大信賴以及大健康產業加強對外招商引資針對外資重大投資案件規劃建立預審以及快速審查機制提供更便捷的投資環境同時"},{"start":2539.69,"end":2563.852,"text":"投資臺灣三大方案這個規劃延長實施到116年其中歡迎臺商回臺投資方案將擴大適用至全球臺商回臺投資方案持續擴大臺灣經濟成長的動能另外為吸引更多的外國觀光商務人士來臺灣消費駐足"},{"start":2566.926,"end":2581.319,"text":"本部著眼生活文化習性與臺灣相近的日本、菲律賓、越南等雅鄰國家形塑4億人口的文化生活圈形成內需市場"},{"start":2583.35,"end":2598.62,"text":"規劃邀請國際百大知名品牌進入臺灣,透過免稅條件吸引在臺消費,同時行銷臺灣的品牌,以美食、大健康以及營法養生產業為主要賣點,輔導國內潛力新級餐廳,4年內希望能增加到500顆"},{"start":2610.234,"end":2626.625,"text":"打造優質服務業 進而提高服務人員的薪資水準 面對全球經貿走向集團化區域化的大格局 企業一定要走出去爭取市場的能力"},{"start":2627.799,"end":2654.886,"text":"本部推動境外關內﹐延伸臺灣的經濟國力﹐以供應以大帶小的模式﹐結合臺灣半導體﹐AI等優勢產業﹐規劃於重點國家區域設立科技產業園區公司合資﹐成立開發服務公司﹐與當地洽談合作﹐爭取租稅優惠措施﹐並建置海外單一服務窗口"},{"start":2656.024,"end":2681.376,"text":"掌握當地法規投資訊息提供企業建廠到營運的全程服務給予臺商海外佈局更多的支持此外前往CPTPP或是有恰雙邊FTA協定的國家佈局更可以讓臺商享受低關稅或者零關稅的優惠等同加入區域經濟整合的效果"},{"start":2682.253,"end":2707.078,"text":"延伸臺灣經濟版圖．邁向經濟日不落果的目標。公電穩定為重要任務．持續推動綠能與節能本部對於公電穩定相當重視．隨著AI的投資．雲端的運算．半導體設廠持續增加之下．務實寬估電力成長"},{"start":2709.864,"end":2710.104,"text":"：一共"},{"start":2724.844,"end":2727.124,"text":"以後可因應今年夏季尖峰用的高峰"},{"start":2754.557,"end":2756.319,"text":"臺電優先救用就會用電戶用電量成長遠超過匱限成長以及設備較舊的"},{"start":2776.468,"end":2781.93,"text":"並且透過智慧電網掌握再生能源並往的運轉情形未來持續投入電網強化韌性建設推動電網系統全面升級"},{"start":2802.544,"end":2830.929,"text":"確保臺灣產業以及民眾用電的穩定無虞為推動深度節能、擴大節能規模本部加強節能服務業 的發展規劃專案貸款信保制度以50億元信保的額度增加單一最高3億元貸款的信保額度引導金融業資金投入節能的工作"},{"start":2832.082,"end":2847.827,"text":"搭配節能績效保證的專案的補助以及節能服務團的輔導加速企業落實節能行動住宅方面家電太舊換新補助推動期金已經補助了147萬台冷氣54萬台冰箱促成節電12億度"},{"start":2855.339,"end":2874.07,"text":"本部將向行政院爭取114年到117年4年的經費﹐擴大太舊換新補助措施﹐加速老舊低效率的設備退場。臺灣風光發展的成熟﹐透過離岸風電區塊開發第二期選商﹐協助解決風電業者面臨的挑戰。"},{"start":2882.608,"end":2886.566,"text":"太陽光電屋頂以及複合利用加速光電的部件"},{"start":2888.851,"end":2907.56,"text":"同時將加速氫能、地熱、海洋能等前瞻能源發揮尤其氫能是未來邁向淨零轉型的重要橋接能源技術之一本部將打算氫能區域中心由國營企業帶領進行技術驗證擴大產業運輸以及發電領域的氫能應用"},{"start":2915.267,"end":2924.576,"text":"因應全球2050近零轉型的浪潮以及臺灣業者加入國際綠色供應鏈R1-100的承諾綠電已經成為臺灣產業發展以及出口的關鍵生產要素預計2030年國內業者將迎來第一波重要的綠電需求"},{"start":2939.813,"end":2949.997,"text":"本部會持續擴大綠能發展降低開發成本同時透過統購分銷機制滿足企業購買綠電的需求並持續向社會說明發展綠電對產業的重要性以及創造就業機會的效益"},{"start":2960.103,"end":2974.501,"text":"非核家園是目前法定目標本部全面發展綠電的腳步不變維持安全穩定供電是莊嚴的承諾至於核電是否原意涉及修法的議題"},{"start":2975.851,"end":3000.836,"text":"目前國內對核電廠的使用期限：何時除役等步驟均與法律有明確規範本部尊重大院審議以及討論可確保核安能處理核廢料以及有社會共識是重要的前提本部也會持續關注全球各項核能新技術的發展"},{"start":3004.106,"end":3030.22,"text":"中小企業低碳數位雙軸轉型活絡新創投資中小企業是臺灣經濟穩定發展的重要基石為協助中小企業應應全球供應鏈的重組AI以及淨零浪潮的挑戰本部持續提供綠色永續優惠貸款協助中小微企業"},{"start":3031.654,"end":3051.491,"text":"導入雲端解決方案或生成AI工具至112年起以易後特別預算支持傳統產業以及中小企業﹐低碳化智慧化發展﹐發展人賠再充電提升員工專業技能專家團隊副廠諮詢、診斷以及輔導"},{"start":3057.455,"end":3086.104,"text":"供應鏈以大帶小合作建構減碳與智慧的製造能力或許搭配產業創新條例第10條之一的修法納入AI以及高效能設備投資筆檢帶動個別廠商以及供應鏈製程朝向低碳化數位化的發展建立碳管理能力加速中小企業開啟第二期限"},{"start":3088.308,"end":3105.422,"text":"未來我們會持續培育更多的潛力新創藉由國發基金匡列100億元搭配創投公司加速器策略性投資人以及中大型企業創投等"},{"start":3106.837,"end":3125.823,"text":"共同協助新創以及中小企業於成長過程中取得充分營運資金並依新創不同的發展階段協助籌組團隊優化商業模式取得企業合作時機提供完整培訓輔導發掘臺灣下世代的隱形冠軍結語經濟部"},{"start":3134.352,"end":3143.615,"text":"最重要的任務就是活絡臺灣經濟與產業發展我們會持續壯大臺灣半導體生態系以此為利基擴散產業AI應用讓臺灣在全球AI浪潮下站穩領先的地位並藉由"},{"start":3157.793,"end":3186.471,"text":"以大帶小的模式擴大臺灣供應鏈向海外延伸同時在滿足未來產業發展的需求下確保穩定供電加速綠能多元化發展形塑臺灣良好的投資環境進而吸引國外人才國外的資金來臺灣提升企業競爭力讓臺灣走出去世界走進來"},{"start":3188.403,"end":3207.213,"text":"．盼各位委員．對於本部施政指正事教．本會期送請大院審議的相關議案．亦懇請委員們鼎力支持．敬祝各位委員身體健康．萬事如意以上報告 敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3209.855,"end":3211.196,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":3224.022,"end":3224.222,"text":"有請部長來請郭部長"},{"start":3256.991,"end":3278.822,"text":"好部長首先感謝你那你願意從這個角色的轉換從這個公司治理的領導人變成國家治理的在產業面當中的帶領者所以也期待你成先起後展望未來本期這個質詢的重點在人員提升跟產業升級"},{"start":3280.763,"end":3290.321,"text":"在您報告中當然第一個有提到節能那第二個呢你也提到天然氣在這個人員配比上也即將有50%是由天然氣來做發電彈"},{"start":3294.503,"end":3320.758,"text":"臺灣沒有產天然氣所以如何降低它的成本在國企國營的部分本席從前年開始主張到現在那想演一些細節再跟您得到您的這個明確的主張也就是我具體建議中油跟台電要兩大事業體來合作這樣的國企國營最後你如何面對紅色供應鏈滲透全球我從最後這個議題先開始跟您做個討論"},{"start":3322.819,"end":3333.807,"text":"在紅色供應鏈您剛才花了很大的篇幅去講到了我們的半導體他確實在2024年的產值目前已經成長13.6%達新台幣4.17我們昨天高雄市市長陳其邁市長晚上的時候發出了這個臉書"},{"start":3344.634,"end":3355.093,"text":"期待回答他在這個高雄的同時他的這個運算中心落腳在高雄那我不曉得部長你怎麼看這件事你能夠做什麼"},{"start":3356.536,"end":3361.339,"text":"重點你能夠為這件事做什麼我再給你幾個背景資料為了在5月6號的時候我們行政院陳建仁部長他特別拿下視察男子園區年外道路為了就是強化我國半導體的競爭優勢及南台灣區域的經濟韌性"},{"start":3374.488,"end":3374.528,"text":"臺灣S南帶"},{"start":3404.548,"end":3431.677,"text":"教育部補助了1.8億既有人才既有行政院支持我不知道在回答現在就兩大區域在做這個選擇那我當然認為回答在整個臺灣的半島地來講第二個園區不是在新竹科學園區而是就在高雄我不講南臺灣就在高雄包括我的石化產業在他前端的基底"},{"start":3432.458,"end":3449.335,"text":"負財的部分我們有一條龍的石化產業鏈部長您能夠為這件事情回答能夠他在選擇的最佳地點您認為您個人的評估是什麼那如果是在南台灣的高雄的話您經濟部要做什麼事情"},{"start":3450.444,"end":3452.465,"text":"所以你認為高雄的優勢比中部差嗎?"},{"start":3466.863,"end":3482.73,"text":"是,沒有,您的指教,我的意思是,他會選擇,會打會自己選擇,但是以剛才委員您的這個指教,他應該會選擇你想要他去的地方好,這個是很有一個"},{"start":3484.871,"end":3501.978,"text":"已經有非常暗示性也明示性的一個答案我們就期待回答就落在我高雄投資也建立起台灣第二的半導體的產業群聚聚落第二個您也發了很大的篇幅去講到這個半導體另外我給你一個"},{"start":3509.941,"end":3515.083,"text":"中小企業跟半導體,中小企業的家數現在163萬家,半導體的家數470家,就業人口中小企業是910萬人,半導體的就業人口是29萬人"},{"start":3528.047,"end":3543.213,"text":"年營業額中小企業是3.6兆,半導體是4.17兆,所以您在這個中小企業當中他也穿起了3.6兆跟4.17兆,坦白講我中小企業也穿起台灣經濟體的半邊天"},{"start":3545.054,"end":3560.88,"text":"好但是您看看您的這個報告講得很好我有注意聽你的最後也講得很漂亮我們中小企業怎麼輔助他我爬梳了一下你讓部長知道這個您未來怎麼落實我覺得是非常有難度的因為從預算"},{"start":3563.442,"end":3573.869,"text":"從預算的角度我就隨便爬出 你說智慧機械好 你們的編列1億7千萬然後呢 中小企業 製造業 供應業導入AI應用 你們編多少"},{"start":3577.791,"end":3606.173,"text":"百萬千萬億一億四千多萬好再過去呢你們呢這個合算的啦我就舉一個就好智慧機械產業智慧製造你們合調的喔你們的計畫講得很清楚喔喔你的這個你只要研發的機器一定要往國外輸上限我可以補助到九千萬或者五千萬但是你們知道光是這個智慧機器升級你才補助多少真的合出去四百萬除了你預算小"},{"start":3607.094,"end":3607.555,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3628.198,"end":3647.813,"text":"中油全部都聚焦十大這個蔣經國時代的一個十大十大十大建設全部都落腳大部分都落在我高雄所以我的傳統產業跟金屬構建業石化業跟塑化業我不知道您針對這樣的產業是你講我講這個東西是好多的中小企業喔"},{"start":3648.673,"end":3668.49,"text":"全部我的大岡山地區包括本席的選區整個南高雄所有的中小企業都是在支援鋼鐵金屬構建石化跟塑化業所以部長你怎麼對於這樣的預算規模而且你補助的門檻這麼的高那你怎麼達成傳統產業的升級呢?您的主張是什麼?"},{"start":3674.997,"end":3686.373,"text":"我的想法是要把這些企業都帶到他的客戶旁邊如果他的客戶是在海外就會有我的這個"},{"start":3689.423,"end":3704.093,"text":"進外關內的方式來帶領他的成長部長我時間有限所以我還是點一下你講到這個概念本席也同意但是做法上還是需要這些預算支持你人才的培訓你設備的採購調整"},{"start":3706.994,"end":3726.799,"text":"那包括你廠房相關的一個都要跟著這個調整包括你產品的研發都可能要跟著這些通通都需要國家預算的支持這樣的預算你要不要做個檢討了今年我不曉得來不來得及因為已經邁入6月了在您現在未到下會期你會預算預算的一個審查"},{"start":3727.619,"end":3728.64,"text":"是的,這個在下一次會期"},{"start":3750.801,"end":3766.466,"text":"部長最後這個在WTO下中國扮演的全球工廠的這個角色非常的明顯紅色供應鏈除了治安之外其實在國家大型政策衝擊是非常大的剛才講到的離岸風電"},{"start":3768.146,"end":3771.768,"text":"復合材料的使用：就將面對對岸產品的傾向：水下結構的鋼鐵也將透過第三地利用國內無產製的規則漏洞來打擊我國的金屬產業"},{"start":3786.616,"end":3805.247,"text":"經濟部長,你身為國內產業的大掌門人,協助各產業立足台灣,放眼全球,面對紅色供應鏈的滲透。你的主張是什麼?如何在國家安全的前提下,帶領國家產業走進新藍海,厚植國家競爭力?部長,你要注意您現在的回答。"},{"start":3806.147,"end":3824.393,"text":"你可以是一個主張性的紅色供應鏈如果你是堅決的反對那我各組師以及下面的我的法人就會整個照著做了包括剛才我提的離岸風電的複合材料相關的包括你產發署的署長現在在你旁邊他相關的審查計畫的審查他整個供應鏈的審查他就會繃緊神經所以您對紅色供應鏈的主張是什麼請您明確表態"},{"start":3836.741,"end":3839.108,"text":"我是不允許紅色供應鏈的產品進到臺灣"},{"start":3841.628,"end":3869.791,"text":"那我們我想也跟我們政府現在做的所以我想我們各單位現在目前在執行的計畫也就會繼續這樣執行了好另外我在針對我們兩大國營事業在這個天然氣的國氣國運當中我也非常感謝經濟部有採納本期的建議所以在從2022年的第一次的質詢之後到現在2024年2023年的時候經濟部做了兩件事情第一個你們正式的回應"},{"start":3871.233,"end":3888.909,"text":"交通部航港局說好我既然國企國運那你一定要把它納入大眾物資所以非常感謝經濟部你們也回覆了這個航港局是的我們可以把這個天然氣等同米麥石油石油煤大眾物資變成可以國企國運國企國運"},{"start":3893.573,"end":3919.819,"text":"好那現在呢我要一個這個獨家給你這個訊息我們因為為什麼本席一直主張我天然氣一定要能夠掌握在自己的手中的運輸因為在今年的軍演5月23、24你看這張表這個我永安的表連著三天我的軍事的封鎖我三天沒有一台天然氣入港平均都會有一天入港來卸貨連三天"},{"start":3920.939,"end":3925.846,"text":"部長您身為企業的領導人,你能夠允許你的廠有3天斷料的危機嗎?你能夠允許你的廠沒有備料嗎?你知道我們天然氣國家的備料的天數是幾天?7天欸!才7天欸!我現在就有3天不進來了!"},{"start":3938.422,"end":3965.398,"text":"所以為什麼我要國氣國運好再來這個包括去年這是我現在2024年講的前年2024年的公視我左下角這個新聞好在公視有追到這個新聞中國軍援引斷氣危機好我先在這邊主張這個我第二個你們經濟部有推進的就是你台電也出來說話了好我們台電可以跟中油一樣可以來自購這個天然氣"},{"start":3968.019,"end":3970.902,"text":"本期主張我希望中油現在是這個DS現貨採購的30%全部改由台電來採購但中油擔心什麼中油公會在反對什麼他在反對說哇台電6啊也買天然氣之後啊"},{"start":3986.215,"end":3996.118,"text":"那你會跟我搶生意,國內的天然氣的銷售,你也會跟我中油搶,好,我這邊就把他阻斷了,我具體建議,除了這30%的現貨由台電來採購,自負盈虧,限制他的行為,他的30%的自由採購,採FOP的運輸方式,完全用在發電"},{"start":4007.082,"end":4023.895,"text":"不可以去給我搶中油他現在在天然氣的銷售市場那在中油的部分他在資產的活化他就提供什麼他也是跟台電收錢提供港口租用以及重點人才高雄永安跟台中天然氣人員一起共訓部長您針對天然氣的這個國際國運的議題你怎麼表態"},{"start":4029.076,"end":4031.097,"text":"我還是希望委員能夠精準的掌握一下時間"},{"start":4056.889,"end":4073.738,"text":"好 接下來我們請邱英英委員質詢好 謝謝主席 部長你慢慢來 我請一下郭部長好 請郭部長"},{"start":4082.008,"end":4110.338,"text":"部長早,我剛在臺上一直在觀察您的首次備詢那當然前面第一位委員到接下來到我我發現您的發言非常的簡短但是只回答重點不囉嗦所以我們待會的這個詢答大概也希望能夠幾點就教於這個郭部長您從產業界來說您大概是非常清楚業界的需求"},{"start":4111.999,"end":4130.736,"text":"這兩天大概全台灣的媒體全台灣的這個最關心的大概就是輝達要在台灣這個進行設立台灣所謂的台灣總部等等這些加速在台灣的投資甚至增加台灣的投資當然很多人可能不知道其實過去在2021年的時候輝達就參加了經濟部的大Aplus的計畫"},{"start":4135.26,"end":4152.879,"text":"經濟部其實政府曾經補助過67億這個相較於他在台北的投資在內湖的投資243億元其實是非常的少那未來的整個大台灣的AI研發中心或者是大台灣的總部我相信那個投資是非常多那"},{"start":4154.521,"end":4170.552,"text":"這不懂我們會有一點私心啦因為您知道在經濟委員會裡頭其實來自高雄的委員就有四個所以我相信等一下我們四個高雄的委員應該都會跟您提到這個輝達要設立在高雄這個當然我們會有一點私心但我們像我們舉的這個圖這個雅灣2.0的智慧科技創新園區這個是在瑞隆委員的選區裡頭"},{"start":4177.637,"end":4203.044,"text":"那包括我們的陳其邁市長一直在談到他的第二任任期之內一直在談到AI跟5G AIoT所以我們大概都認為其實設立在輝達的未來的台灣總部如果能夠設立在高雄把整個高雄的科技園區的這個廊帶串聯起來這是一個非常重要的一個產業經營的觀念部長您同意我這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":4204.498,"end":4226.165,"text":"非常同意好 謝謝部長您的同意那這個當然也是黃文勳執行長在前兩天在臺大的演講裡頭就列出了這樣的一張表這大概是他的整個臺灣的輝達在臺灣的供應鏈除了產業界以外當然也有官方也有學界產官學的這樣的一個供應鏈"},{"start":4227.165,"end":4246.554,"text":"其實看到這張圖之後我內心一則以喜一則以憂喜的是說臺灣的供應鏈其實非常的足夠讓輝達或者是其他的這一些AI的產業在臺灣的這個產業鏈上面其實是非常的充足另外一個隱憂就是說其實現在臺灣在5月28號通過了"},{"start":4252.176,"end":4252.476,"text":"外資賣超1041億元"},{"start":4279.954,"end":4299.374,"text":"從5月28號之後所以我想要聽部長您怎麼談如何創造或者是說如何增加外資對於投資台灣的信心這會是您很重要的一個工作部長可不可以請您說明發表一下您的看法"},{"start":4301.666,"end":4329.177,"text":"外資離開臺灣我想他有他的這個考量可能是就他的這個股票他在獲利的部分他想他獲利了結他可能下一波再會進來不過我們從昨天的這個Computex的這個臺北電腦展非常多的這個AI的這個老大跟大佬都到臺灣來都齊聚在臺灣分別來"},{"start":4331.562,"end":4354.802,"text":"臺灣然後要跟我們臺灣的AI供應鏈做一些整合跟合作我相信在這個未來科技的第三個大轉變我想這個AI的時代來臨臺灣的這個擁有的這個實力是令人稱不擇舍的那這些世界的頂尖的廠商都願意來臺灣跟我們臺灣的廠商合作我相信在未來的投資"},{"start":4356.343,"end":4377.754,"text":"一定會更大更有力如果是這樣的話部長那您怎麼樣來更精準的詮釋一下您在口頭報告裡頭談到的這個境外關內跟境內關外這兩個所謂的投資環境跟您未來想要創造的這個整個投資架構的大藍圖我想聽一下您更細部的說明好不好"},{"start":4378.174,"end":4378.515,"text":"經濟部部長列席"},{"start":4391.912,"end":4420.432,"text":"就跟著他走所以我們可以想像的應該現在台積電在美國日本那將來的德國這個也就是我們首先會把半導體供應鏈帶往當地國然後由他們在那邊當地落地生產然後服務台積電以外的客戶幫他們開創新的這個生意機會然後可以接近客戶那麼第二個他也因為現在的地緣政治"},{"start":4421.473,"end":4423.421,"text":"關稀阿跟這個氣候變遷的關稀上現在的這個"},{"start":4426.524,"end":4452.259,"text":"運輸都拉得很長所以他可以接近客戶所以對他來講降低成本然後增加了他的這個競爭力這個是境外關內的部分然後關內的意思是說我們一條龍的幫他服務因為大部分都是中小企業所以我們幫他帶出去的時候不會讓他單打獨鬥在海外那邊自生自滅所以我們就是用這樣的一個觀念然後把它群聚起來"},{"start":4452.839,"end":4479.732,"text":"那由我們經濟部來服務他們這是境外觀念部長我想這個部分可能還需要許多細節細部的這個操作模式可能還需要去討論另外我想要再跟您討論最後一個議題就是說我看到您的這個報告裡頭當然談到非常多是關於AI的產業但是其實經濟部我們曾經在100等一下"},{"start":4480.802,"end":4499.158,"text":"去年5月4號的時候其實經濟部成立了一個叫做TBMC的這樣的一個公司這是跟我們的生技產業是有相關的TBMC就是台灣生物醫藥製造股份有限公司但是部長"},{"start":4499.898,"end":4524.331,"text":"您剛講很多是跟AI有關的但是我沒有聽到您講跟生技產業有關的現在大家其實是在關注生技業會不會成為下一個護國神山那昨天在立法院裡頭其實我們也通過了再生醫療雙法包括治劑的條例很多的生技業者因為這樣的法令通過其實包括我們過去的對於生技產業的這些創新條例的這個"},{"start":4526.732,"end":4526.992,"text":"完全同意"},{"start":4555.647,"end":4582.578,"text":"所以生技產業將是AI應用產業最棒的地方所以我覺得未來不只是在單純的所謂的半導體不單純只是在晶片我覺得在生物科技的研究發展上面我想兩個如果能夠相輔相成的話對於台灣不只是半導體的供應鏈甚至連生技的供應鏈台灣都應該能夠在世界上佔有一個重要的地位"},{"start":4582.958,"end":4583.498,"text":"政政前委員發言"},{"start":4612.089,"end":4613.092,"text":"謝謝主席,我想請一下郭部長來,請郭部長"},{"start":4623.717,"end":4649.196,"text":"部長好第一次在立法院跟您詢答事實上說您一開始被點名變成經濟部長的時候我就接到很多關心你的電話因為在產業界人脈非常非常的多尤其在新竹科學園區很多人都抱持著正面的狀態看你來接這個位置因為大家覺得你從產業界出來可能會更務實去面對一些問題"},{"start":4650.737,"end":4658.657,"text":"那我在想說最近大家都在關心NVIDIA的部分嘛你剛剛是不是有暗示說他可能會落腳高雄是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":4660.236,"end":4684.349,"text":"我是沒有直接聽到他說落腳高雄但是我大概感覺是這個樣子因為現在很多地方也都在爭取包括我們新竹縣因為楊文科縣長也表示NVIDIA其實有跟新竹縣這邊來做聯繫包括雙北、台南其實大家都在爭取所以我在想說這表示其實整個台灣其實在整個"},{"start":4685.089,"end":4690.475,"text":"提到說AI這個部分還有server的部分台灣可以再持50年那這個部分畫出這個餅其實大家都非常的開心那我這邊其實也要特別提到因為"},{"start":4705.633,"end":4730.616,"text":"MVTR如果說要在台灣設他們的台灣總部然後包括算力中心包括他們的一個研發中心等等不管在哪一個地方他都會用到電需要有更多的人然後部長你也特別提到說你希望台灣在未來五年的時候台灣的IC設計產業能夠變全球第二這個目標應該是很清楚嗎"},{"start":4731.637,"end":4745.673,"text":"現在我們已經是第二了我們是說因為這個中國追得很厲害我想我們要更努力所以說這個部分已經是全球第二了對不對我們要如何去維持這個部分"},{"start":4746.954,"end":4766.769,"text":"加上這麼多AI的國際大廠他們可能會繼續在台灣投資包括NVIDIA、AMD甚至於INTEL他們可能都會在台灣這邊那我在想說你提到說整個AI的人才在未來在2028年之前的時候可能要產官學員要增加20萬人"},{"start":4769.011,"end":4769.712,"text":"我們建議公私協會大家一起來"},{"start":4787.825,"end":4812.919,"text":"那除了學校機構以外呢最重要就是透過這個公協會這個以及外面的這個團體那麼全力大家來開課人培培養這方面的這個工程師那如果20萬代表就是如果以我們國內來講我想這個每一個每一個都這個六都啊"},{"start":4813.319,"end":4834.821,"text":"臺灣國會議員"},{"start":4837.024,"end":4864.022,"text":"產業界的一些規劃的時候對於這樣的一個目標覺得達成可能性其實有一點擔心所以他們認為是不是有可能擴大從國外去引進人才這個部分是不是也是經濟部考量的點跟委員報告國外引進人才這個是我們有要求國外來投資的這個業者他要有一半的這個工程師是來自於國外然後能夠跟我們國內工程師形成高階的這個研究人員"},{"start":4865.043,"end":4868.824,"text":"人才肯定是我們在發展AI產業過程當中都最關鍵的一個資源除了人之外就是電"},{"start":4889.329,"end":4912.754,"text":"那電我發現你的回答其實坦白說比其他的格言來得更務實具體因為我發現你之前曾經提到過就是說以目前來說2030年之前供電是夠的可是你也提到2025到2028年AI如果爆發的時候呢可能用電的情況就要再重新評估然後你也提到說必要的時候你覺得核酸也可以用來做backup"},{"start":4913.354,"end":4915.056,"text":"你之前也特別提到說就是世界一定要做"},{"start":4932.731,"end":4958.283,"text":"世界一定要做可是我發現現在整個經濟部跟能源政策當中提到用電的部分的時候全部都是用天然氣發電除了部分的一個綠能一個部分其他幾乎都是天然氣發電然後天然氣發電當中我就發現在整個您的報告當中提到個推動能源轉型的時候提到個低碳天然氣我很疑惑天然氣為什麼什麼時候變低碳了"},{"start":4959.65,"end":4985.523,"text":"天然氣跟這個我們現在的這個煤發電呢它是比較的嘛對不對它是比較低碳的可是事實上我覺得因為事實上天然氣事實上在整個文字效應當中事實上是一個非常不友善的一種能源的一個模式所以我們希望就是整個就是台灣在供電這個過程當中像你剛剛提到說世界的部分一定要做因為沒有做可能對台灣的供電會有影響可是世界的目前的進度到哪裡"},{"start":4991.164,"end":5015.873,"text":"現在正在環評中環評中都還沒有完成嘛 對不對所以對於這個部分的時候我想說之後再請部長這邊到本辦公室來做一個很細部的說明因為我們對整個供電的需求我們是擔心的因為國發會表示其實我們整個AI的一個發展當中的時候我們用電可能會暴增30%三成這樣的一個量那台電是不是能夠因應得了我覺得我們需要有答案"},{"start":5016.773,"end":5033.653,"text":"是的這是很多支持你的科學園區的朋友其實也擔心的問題確實是如此包括很多科學園區的朋友他們都覺得說如果能夠的時候他們可以用SMR的部分來發行小型核電是不是有可行他們擔心台灣的供電是不足的"},{"start":5033.993,"end":5048.984,"text":"部長您可不可以在這部分做一個簡單的回應謝謝委員指教SMR的部分我們會持續的關注如果沒有核廢料或者是核廢料可以安全的處理我們會把它列入考慮"},{"start":5055.23,"end":5064.258,"text":"提到一個相對開放的方式說如果說真的有可能你覺得河山可以back up我覺得這是我聽到對於整個所有"},{"start":5065.459,"end":5068.241,"text":"我們現在首要的就是讓所有用電戶都能夠滿足然後能夠使用"},{"start":5087.438,"end":5114.528,"text":"那這個我過去所說的這個河山的部分就是說因為這個AI的這個投資會比較沒有辦法掌握到是所以我們是做一個推論是所以部長所以這個部分就是您期待的AI的產業跟著用電的部分我們可以再做一個進一步的需求怎麼樣子能夠讓它能夠平衡滿足那最後我要提一個點就是說您可能也是所有的閣員當中最了解大陸的"},{"start":5115.248,"end":5115.448,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5134.751,"end":5156.207,"text":"對立兵等等都點到了那我想要問一下就是你認為上海深圳北京會不會在你規劃的這個擴大內需市場的範圍當中我內需的市場裡面大概分為這個日常民生日常民生的這一部分如果在科技的部分呢不在這個內需的部分"},{"start":5157.338,"end":5184.316,"text":"所以我們歡迎他來台灣來旅遊歡迎他們來台灣享受台灣的美食享受台灣的養生台灣的復健等等這些設施部長因為你既然希望他們能夠來享受台灣的美食來享受台灣相關的好的部分的時候我覺得你可能也要跟交通部在整個行政院的會議當中的時候提早"},{"start":5185.517,"end":5209.865,"text":"開放就是讓大陸的旅遊團能夠到台灣來然後讓台灣的旅遊團能夠過去交流我覺得是必須才是擴大市場的一個部分然後另外最後我再補一個狀態就是您剛剛有在回答我們張偉的時候你提到說我們在境內關外跟境外關內的部分的時候對於整個境外關內的部分你有提到說你之前有點到說要到日本去"},{"start":5211.545,"end":5238.22,"text":"美國德州的提到部分你提到說這跟整個臺積電的全球布局有關所以等於是整個經濟部這邊是被臺積電拉著跑的對不對那我這邊要特別提到一點說坦白說在這個部分當中你也提到說要把中小企業帶出去嘛對不對那麼希望能夠就地服務不過這個地方我覺得可能對於我們的一個產業外移如何跟入臺灣這邊也要同時去平衡好不好好的"},{"start":5239.321,"end":5239.481,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":5268.42,"end":5270.761,"text":"我們10點30分的時候會先休息5分鐘。"},{"start":5303.658,"end":5328.506,"text":"主席發布到現在看起來各界對你期待還蠻高的目前評價不錯不過今天要談你的三大挑戰這應該也是賴清德賴總統當初給你的三大挑戰第一電到底有夠嗎?而且不只要過它要是一個穩定的電而且是低碳的電我們看剛才我們的主席趙薇在說這幾天"},{"start":5332.017,"end":5352.368,"text":"黃仁鑫IC的這個巨頭都現在在台灣嘛這看起來你剛才報告也特別提到了整個AI的這個AI跟這個半導體的發展是你重中之重可是它耗電都非常重喔所以我現在要跟你討論的它你有沒有辦法做到一個穩定的電跟低碳的電來我們看一下看一下第三章的這個問題來"},{"start":5356.006,"end":5368.236,"text":"你現在看你的螢幕,你看螢幕裡面右下角我們先討論我們台灣的電到底足夠之外穩不穩定你看右下角這個圖這是每一個月風力發電的發電量對哪四個月發電,發電量最少"},{"start":5380.336,"end":5406.162,"text":"你這個圖看起來,比較高的發電量就高嘛對不對?那這個比較矮的發電量最少嗎?對西光灰發電量最小?這四個月,這是夏天的時候對啊,那現在嘛,六七八九六七八九不是我們用電統結的時候,最需要電的時候,結果風地發電又是最少"},{"start":5408.185,"end":5416.667,"text":"這裏面從這個圖還看出來一個問題你看12個月裏面高低起伏非常的大而且1到3月跟10到12月"},{"start":5419.092,"end":5440.619,"text":"發電是最多的,其他,特別是我們要電的時候,非常的低,電池鐵,電力重量,對不對?所以它不穩定嘛,第二個點,它有先天的切線,天氣越來越少,發電越少,所以它不見得是一個穩定的電,是不是這樣?對不對?這個結論可以嗎?第二個,不只是風電而已,太陽能也是。"},{"start":5445.543,"end":5472.371,"text":"太陽能也是嘛對不對太陽能不要講說太陽下山就沒有發電了有時候天空飄過一朵雲電力就開始有波動嘛對不對所以這兩個都是不夠穩定的電這老實講國際媒體跟專家也都提出這樣的一個提醒第一你要的是一個低碳的電對不對是一個低碳的電嘛結果你看山內份連亞馬遜都扛不住啦"},{"start":5473.742,"end":5500.187,"text":"亞馬遜花了多少?207.5億去買核電所以你現在克服了兩個很重要的問題第一 再生能源風電跟太陽能我們是要發展沒有錯可是它是一個不穩定的電 今天你剛才在說的你要發展AI半導體它要非常非常穩定的電 對不對?看起來你的挑戰很大第二 核電到底怎麼辦?我們再看下一個連亞馬遜都要花這麼多錢了"},{"start":5503.28,"end":5528.812,"text":"清大河工所的教授 葉教授 葉宗光 他說他特別要提起你剛才鄭鄭前政委員說你有把這個有把這個河山廠當成這個備用的對不對 備援的電力 我是比較高興的你有覺得你的想法好像那個 已經快渴死還沒挖井你有這種感覺嗎 來我分析給你聽喔 我用葉教授的方法分析給你聽 他說你如果要當成一個"},{"start":5530.197,"end":5553.775,"text":"備援的電力 第一核三廠馬上一號機727馬上就要停了要處理你要做幾個動作第一個你先提出你的執照更新的申請第二你要進行必要的安檢跟測試第三你要取得管制機關的原意的許可第四你這個基礎才能夠保持待機隨時可以用你這個動作如果都沒做你怎麼會是備援的電力停了"},{"start":5559.895,"end":5559.955,"text":"報告委員："},{"start":5578.857,"end":5592.794,"text":"這個目前的法還在存在我現在這個法是在這個法的這個框架之下我必須要依法行事所以這個部分那或修掉我就會按照這個程序去進行"},{"start":5594.559,"end":5599.301,"text":"現在是因為依法我是不能夠進行這個程序的所以這一點給委員報告"},{"start":5624.54,"end":5634.726,"text":"最能解決的就是賴清德賴總統嗎?現在是這樣,我考慮在這個法的架構之下,我還有其他的方法嗎?我有其他的方法可以解決現在目前欠電的問題,如果有可能發生欠電,這個要怎麼解決?這因為有法律的問題,我比較難處理,但是我可以利用風跟光的部分來解決這個問題。"},{"start":5650.748,"end":5655.113,"text":"我查台電的這個數據,增加差不多只有4%而已,被你7%你都增加多少,又不穩定了,我們看下一個啦,我知道你在講的是那個天然氣啦,來,你4J到5J接得上嗎?"},{"start":5670.174,"end":5691.179,"text":"四階五階你到底接不接得上?現在三階到明年落軌這個能不能完工老實講有化力的問號當然我們期待可以如期完工影響比較大的四階到五階四階到五階到目前為止都還在還貧阿你告訴人家你用用勒你看一下喔四階現在回到三福三福的這個生態漁業經濟的爭議五階影響更大了"},{"start":5697.441,"end":5715.399,"text":"有白海豚的這個生態的這個爭議他從2021年3月開的第一次的這個環評之後相隔21個月那把現在時間加上去可能有30幾個月都不夠幾個啊你的四接跟五接真的接得上來嗎你如果接不上來真的出了一個差錯"},{"start":5716.62,"end":5740.688,"text":"有天然氣你還沒辦法一轉是沒有錯我們現在是把各種的這個狀況開始在做這個精密的這個評估那剛才委員所指教的這個不穩定的事情現在已經有這個比較智慧整合智慧調度這個不穩定包括AI也是可以禮拜來調什麼樣智慧調度不要調去調到那個"},{"start":5743.249,"end":5771.133,"text":"調到像桃園 桃園一下子停電事件姿勢好不好對好這個也很重要是是是所以剛剛提的老蔣這幾個都是很重要的事謝謝委員執導我來提醒一個重要事情風電這間風電我們是說出了一些事情風電現在已經賣一台賣到六塊了六塊錢對不對結果現在啊買不到買主所以整幾天包括財政部部長接受確定包括財政部部長接受"},{"start":5773.058,"end":5799.371,"text":"執行的時候都說 現在工股的聯貸銀行 剛才都評估可能都有風險 現在兩個問題 工股銀行要不要貸款給他這是一個 因為價錢太高 第二你一套六口都沒人買所以在風電的推動上 又是另外一個問題另外我特別提醒一件事 我們看一下風電當然是要推動國產化可是部長你前陣子有看到 幾個國外媒體的提醒"},{"start":5800.39,"end":5801.891,"text":"我們這個這一部分會接受這個委員的指導這個部分我們會深入評估"},{"start":5826.308,"end":5826.909,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":5856.408,"end":5859.209,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員也謝謝郭部長我們接下來請楊瓊英委員發言來請郭部長"},{"start":5885.868,"end":5886.469,"text":"2030年前不確定嗎?"},{"start":5896.188,"end":5918.555,"text":"本席記得您來拜訪的時候您告訴我一句話我滿心的期待您說你上任之後要盤點臺灣所需的電力所以目前情況究竟是如何請做說明跟委員報告我去拜訪您的時候我曾經確實這麼說我會馬上盤點目前的供電跟需求的狀況"},{"start":5919.155,"end":5919.715,"text":"昨天前天的AI的這個"},{"start":5937.045,"end":5964.584,"text":"對這個需求出來以後變化很大變化很大所以我們要重新再估計好你預計什麼時候重新再估計因為AI的速度並不是1加1加1這個速度很快所以在這樣的情況之下您預估你重新盤點臺灣的電你什麼時候可以給社會大眾來說明清楚我跟這個委員報告如果說這個AI的這個數據中心投資"},{"start":5965.865,"end":5989.917,"text":"我想如您所說的他可能一次就好幾家出來了那以我們目前的估計如果在今年他就是明年要設置完因為他不會是一開始就要這個店但是明年底之前要設店我大概支持5家到6家的數據中心但是如果超過比如說一次來10家那麼我們可能就是"},{"start":5991.238,"end":6012.026,"text":"在考慮我用什麼最快的方法可以增加他們需要的電來支應他們需要的電所以換句話說政府是全力協助對那全力協助之餘我們的來源怎麼來我們的來源現在目前是這樣就是說可以的就是我所了解的蓋一座電廠大概要6年"},{"start":6013.422,"end":6019.066,"text":"你要蓋什麼樣的電廠?請說這個是一個新的論點喔再蓋一座電廠請問那個電廠是什麼樣的電廠?你所謂的6年是什麼樣的電廠?基本上火力的電廠大概要6年天然氣的電廠要6年"},{"start":6037.561,"end":6045.769,"text":"臺中火力發電廠已經貢獻很多,我們不可能再用廢發電。臺中火力發電廠已經貢獻很多,我們不可能再用廢發電。臺中火力發電廠已經貢獻很多,我們不可能再用廢發電。"},{"start":6060.069,"end":6064.774,"text":"您說的綠電,您之前也說核電是一個乾淨的能源,這句話還存在嗎?存在那會延逸嗎?核電會不會延逸?RE100是不承認核電是綠電的"},{"start":6078.428,"end":6078.748,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6099.522,"end":6101.284,"text":"臺中的不管臺中是他本來就要更新的"},{"start":6124.105,"end":6149.277,"text":"我們現在要補這個AI如果超過我們預期的我會先從光開始做從太陽能先從光開始做對 這個還沒有發布啦但是我們優先考慮回答委員您的這個問題我優先考慮的先從光因為太陽光發電是最快的方式"},{"start":6150.954,"end":6151.114,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":6168.53,"end":6191.74,"text":"同時原先生說電力這句話非常非常的重要他有說電力及國力你贊不贊成還有彭松龍理事長也說了算力的領域在臺灣是我們是能力很強所以我們有很好的發展但是要確保電力系統"},{"start":6193.041,"end":6193.181,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6212.797,"end":6238.491,"text":"那這樣的一個情況之下跟你原先所規劃我們不缺電是有所不足的那不足剛剛部長你也提出第一個你希望要蓋一個電廠來充足6年後那會不會緩不濟急當然緩不濟急當然緩不濟急所以你提出來的是救不了你目前的缺電啊不是我剛才是跟委員報告說如果再蓋新的電廠要6年一定來不及"},{"start":6240.112,"end":6267.746,"text":"所以我的意思就是說我要做太陽能發電比較快能夠補這個可能不足的部分你用太陽能要來補AI不足這個會足嗎?會足嗎?部長?可以啦可以?我們有長期規劃有其他的電廠會在這個2027年2028年來接啦因為AI的成長速度目前是不是可以"},{"start":6268.962,"end":6289.43,"text":"準確的來預估似乎我們沒有辦法去定案因為AI是以爆炸式的方式在跳升認同這個觀念嗎認同所以我們的壓力會更大所以本席再一次請教要穩定供電原先我們所規劃的"},{"start":6290.871,"end":6316.622,"text":"我們所規劃的2025年是已經跳票那我們的環境部的彭部長也說了2050年競靈目標也沒有辦法達成今天媒體很大片沒有辦法達成那你要怎麼樣去解決部長我們的問題第一個請問請問2025年再生能源配比的目標你的燃氣50%"},{"start":6320.253,"end":6322.294,"text":"我目前會根據新的需求重新再來調整"},{"start":6348.863,"end":6349.464,"text":"你怎麼去分配?"},{"start":6361.26,"end":6390.222,"text":"我們因為有這個過去呢在沒有這個AI的這個是你告訴我時間好嗎你們去盤點大概多久時間可以告訴我們也請你講王總部長因為這個是重大的政策請教部長你們大概盤點多久的時間可以告訴社會大眾第一個你到底能不能應對這個AI因為電力及國力那第二個你的能源配比什麼時候可以告訴社會大眾是"},{"start":6390.862,"end":6414.9,"text":"我要準確的跟這個委員報告我想在這個這個會期結束之前我一定會想辦法跟你報告具體的這個會期結束是我們現在預估是在7月15號所以換句話說就是下個月中經濟部長你可以告訴我們國內的電力到底夠不夠那不夠"},{"start":6415.68,"end":6415.7,"text":"臺電虧損怎麼辦?"},{"start":6441.545,"end":6466.062,"text":"你會繼續撥補嗎?臺電現在虧損3800億除了政府我們今年拍板定案再補工預算的1000億去年的1500億前年的500億現在是增資3000億那未來部長下次本席也跟你討論到這個問題那我們要怎麼辦?尤其立法院已經通過在院會通過9月的電價"},{"start":6468.023,"end":6488.438,"text":"是緩漲的是動漲的你支持嗎請教部長你支持嗎9月電價因為4月1號已經漲了9月不能再漲了再漲了人民很痛苦啊我想這個電價的部分這個建價工會他會來做決定電價委員會立法院已經做出決議我請你來看到這個問題好不好這個非常重要所以因此本席要請教"},{"start":6498.621,"end":6517.467,"text":"未來臺電如果你不改變他臺電的員工太辛苦了本席也告訴你說你必須要將臺電要怎麼樣處理請你專案來處理你也答應本席所以如果他繼續的虧損你還是會繼續的用公費算來撥補資嗎向行政院來求資源嗎"},{"start":6523.053,"end":6523.953,"text":"臺電的財務必須要靠自己的努力去讓他賺錢"},{"start":6553.151,"end":6577.512,"text":"同樣我們就是國家要補助給這個弱勢的這個團體或者居民的話那個是國家補助這個是屬於國家的社會福利一部分不屬於我台電的這個電費來降你這樣子的說法讓我們是很讚配又很驚訝很讚配又很驚訝那這怎麼辦呢所以我還是給功課好嗎"},{"start":6580.154,"end":6589.08,"text":"臺電的員工很辛苦我們臺灣不能沒有臺電而且你從公司要一分為三研究了幾年又說不分了還是以臺電為基準市場可以自由競價你是以這個論點告訴我們喔所以我還是給一個功課針對臺電的財務請部長解決我們臺電的虧損好的好嗎可以可以喔那你多久時間可以告訴我們方案"},{"start":6609.707,"end":6638.49,"text":"我要了解全盤以後才能夠跟你報告所以我我盡量在會期結束前也是在7月中旬以前告訴我們臺電的財務要怎麼處理那我要拜託你同時跟油一樣喔中油也一樣喔中油已經求助於你喔平穩措施喔他甚至要將啞鈴最低價要拿掉喔你們行政院經濟部拍板的是啞鈴最低價"},{"start":6639.551,"end":6648.194,"text":"這件要拿掉但是你們說要以啞鈴要怎麼樣軍價喔哇那啞鈴最低價跟啞鈴軍價這個有玄機有貓咪喔因為啞鈴裡面包括到日本"},{"start":6657.697,"end":6662.262,"text":"因為前任的王部長答應我,我們的瓦斯一定不能漲,所以我拜託你。"},{"start":6673.835,"end":6673.975,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6691.237,"end":6707.543,"text":"這個部長您可能要多花一點時間,又不能漲價,然後又不能撥補,然後又不能倒閉,這個考量,考驗您的經營,企業經營的能力,這個我也想不到這要怎麼經營下去,不能撥補,不能企業,不能倒閉,這也是厲害,接下來請曾天才委員發言"},{"start":6715.589,"end":6715.749,"text":"部長好好這個"},{"start":6744.117,"end":6764.846,"text":"運酬帷幄之中﹐決勝千里之外﹐這個非常好的一個﹐所以因為你來自這個企業界、產業界﹐所以包括這個國發會的主委﹐所以你們兩個要共同的去努力"},{"start":6766.872,"end":6788.936,"text":"今天你的報告裡面當前經濟環境特別提到維俄烏中東區域等地緣政治衝突事實上是包含了我們臺灣中華民國跟大陸的一個非常重要的一個衝突怎麼樣去減緩這個是"},{"start":6794.062,"end":6794.943,"text":"因為賴總統就職演說提到兩國互不隸屬"},{"start":6810.888,"end":6832.383,"text":"不只是軍演：軍演就一再的擴大然後又宣布ECFA停止134項的產品今天的報告沒有提到到底影響怎麼樣沒有提到應該要做一個補充的說明這個機械工會很感嘆"},{"start":6834.129,"end":6861.892,"text":"寫上加雙出國影響對入市下滑下滑4%到5%所以這個部分作為一個經濟部部長又是來自企業界跟國發會主委就靠你們兩位要去說服行政院長說服總統好我們看這個今天我們談這個核電"},{"start":6864.552,"end":6892.479,"text":"這裏面這是報導這個是不是能源政策的轉向要勇敢的去以專業用專業你的報告裏面提到核安核電議題三大前提核安要確保核廢墟處理社會有共識持續關注全球各項核能新技術的發展這個才是最重要"},{"start":6895.051,"end":6921.042,"text":"全球各項核能新技術的發展然後去說明去說服政府的官員說服各方面這才是重點所以不是最小的要放最大的放第一個尊重國會審議及討論那就是要透過這個世界觀"},{"start":6923.508,"end":6949.716,"text":"實際上的何能的狀況來去說服去說明所以這個部分是這樣我自己是30年公務員常常要透過怎麼樣的自己的瞭解自己的專業去說服甚至要說服過去說服我的政務官都常常去做這種事情包括我們今天也講給我們的很多的事務官包括台電的同仁"},{"start":6951.078,"end":6968.072,"text":"所以這個部分這裡提到本部尊重大院的審議及討論你要拿出你的專業才能夠去說明到底要不是全部的尊重因為是涉及到專業涉及到專業這個部分請部長這邊包括我們的政府的官員來去這是一個大議題"},{"start":6978.568,"end":7006.392,"text":"所以這個部分是一個而且是全球的問題我們是不是還要守住這個過去的一個政策已經執行這麼多年一直要去撥補幾千億給台電對不對所以這個部分要給部長做參考好台灣半導體這個就是當初李國鼎對不對"},{"start":7007.984,"end":7033.194,"text":"李國鼎他用他的專業去說服了蔣經國蔣經國院長他他不清楚這個的那個多先進的對不對科技對不對當然是李國鼎那個說服然後從美國專請這個專業的人回來台灣是不是這樣部長稍微回應一下"},{"start":7036.801,"end":7060.854,"text":"是這一題?不是,包括前面,簡要的說好了。好的,您剛才講說這個核電的問題,我想這個是大家比較關注的。那我們還是一樣,因為現在有這個法的這個框架在,那我一定要在這個法的框架之下,這個想辦法來解決目前可能的,但是不一定會發生的問題。"},{"start":7063.917,"end":7082.476,"text":"對我來講,我們會把最糟糕的狀況考慮進來,來考慮整個國力的發展。電力絕對不可缺,所以穩定供電絕對是我們最重要的一個指標。那用不用核電?"},{"start":7084.264,"end":7107.893,"text":"目前我是不需要用到核電但是未來誰都不知道因為經濟要成長所以會不會用所以我們會持續關注全球的這個科技的進步就像您剛剛所指導的我想對科技的部分對新進的科技的部分我們都不斷的在學習跟不斷的在在這個考慮那如果我們可以達到"},{"start":7109.053,"end":7137.788,"text":"安全無力完全安全無力這個是我們最重要的指標不會產生這個遺害這個後代子孫的這些廢料那這個沒有這個前提我們當然一定會考慮去使用好這個部長立法院不只是立法院行政院也常常提修法的草案到立法院立法院一天到每天在審法案"},{"start":7139.491,"end":7168.715,"text":"所以不要說這是法律的框架只要你把你的專業拿出來不能說再過幾年所以這個部分馬上要去處理了馬上要把你的專業不只是你的專業不一定有這個專業怎麼去收集這些專業世界各國都在推動的東西所以這個部分要重啟也不是那麼快"},{"start":7171.42,"end":7196.636,"text":"也不是那麼快,所以不能等啊,要趕快啊,要趕快去做決定。你要繼續飛和加油,我們也沒意見啦,因為那個是涉及到專業,我也沒辦法有意見啦。這個部分是這樣。好,這個半導體,我就回到這個原住民的部分了。我們原住民是非常欠缺這方面的。"},{"start":7198.083,"end":7225.309,"text":"好 這個原住民學生因為我是原住民我還是要談一下原住民的部分原住民學生大專校院就讀比例這個相關跟這個企業在半導體這方面或是其他的科技的我們就讀的比例很低但是如果已經有還是有還是不少人如果能夠去禁用"},{"start":7226.345,"end":7248.396,"text":"原住民就業也會去鼓勵大家去經驗會有這樣的一個這個趨勢所以這個部分怎麼樣輔導這個協助AI企業因同步保障原住民青年工作權益這個部分給足為一個課題那另外就是說"},{"start":7250.115,"end":7256.98,"text":"這裏面提到自來水的比例,這裏面你提到112年底達到95.67%,113年底預計可達95.83%,這個是自來水的一個普及率。部長你看一下我們原住民的部分。"},{"start":7274.793,"end":7289.52,"text":"一般第7跟原住民部落我的資料111年了所以要請水利署再提供到112年的一個比例所以原住民部落的比例差了20%"},{"start":7291.75,"end":7291.77,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":7316.961,"end":7317.121,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7662.149,"end":7682.622,"text":"好來謝謝 謝謝各位媒體朋友"},{"start":7691.504,"end":7692.005,"text":"張家俊委員發言"},{"start":7717.521,"end":7727.427,"text":"主席我想請郭部長來請郭部長郭部長您的上任對產業界來說是非常振奮的消息過去8年來臺灣主管經濟的兩個部長都是從經濟部文官體系所上來的"},{"start":7733.53,"end":7745.142,"text":"所以您的上任可以說是讓整個經濟部都有耳目一新的感覺大家都期待你有一個更務實更貼近民意的作為那上任到現在已經兩個禮拜了從產業界到政務官有什麼特別的感想嗎"},{"start":7754.18,"end":7771.898,"text":"謝謝委員,這個時間可以說這個嗎?可以啊,可以啊謝謝你,當然感想很多啦感想很多,很累嗎?有感覺累嗎?累是不會啦,但是平時我在公司是我問人家,然後我現在當公務人員是別人問我"},{"start":7774.06,"end":7801.593,"text":"您辛苦了但是本席特別要提醒您就是一定要注意一個東西那就是小動物你知道蛇、松鼠、鳥你知道為什麼要注意這些東西嗎因為這些小動物就是造成我們停電的主要原因未來部長一定要詳細的查明那對於台灣未來經濟的破壞您是少數能夠明確具體的提出一個方向的部長"},{"start":7802.253,"end":7810.657,"text":"那您說未來靠AI伺服器跟AI晶片可以讓臺灣經濟再發展50年那加上這幾天有這個AI教父回答的創辦人黃仁勛引來旋風讓臺灣的AI產業可以說是一時成為最熱門的議題那對於AI產業的發展部長認為我們臺灣現在目前面臨最大的挑戰是什麼呢?"},{"start":7827.446,"end":7852.071,"text":"我們現在面臨最大的挑戰就是熟悉AI這個領域的工程師太少我們只會生產AI晶片我們只會做這個AI伺服器但是如何利用AI的這個能力那麼這一方面的這個工程師太少所以他沒有辦法幫助我們百工百業我剛才在講說AI如果做得好"},{"start":7852.771,"end":7852.931,"text":"好,那"},{"start":7872.613,"end":7894.681,"text":"據本席所瞭解除了人才不足之外我們的用水用電的能源供應問題也非常的迫切需要解決那根據統計AI伺服器的耗電量大約是傳統伺服器的3至20倍那在美國CHAT GPT每天要耗"},{"start":7895.461,"end":7896.202,"text":"請問部長目前AI在台灣的用電量大嗎?"},{"start":7914.011,"end":7938.567,"text":"目前還不大目前還不大就是代表未來如果我們要大力發展AI產業就會面臨供電不一定跟得上的情況是嗎委員所說的是對的是那我想要請問部長每年假設這AI訓練跟AI資料中心的用電包括AI晶片的製造依照部長的規劃這兩項產業都蓬勃發展的話台灣每年耗電要增加幾個百分比"},{"start":7947.854,"end":7949.175,"text":"用電是未來最大的變數就是未來"},{"start":7967.21,"end":7969.312,"text":"這3%的預估值到底準不準確因為你看一下這是過去11年來的用電增加的數據"},{"start":7987.265,"end":8000.834,"text":"那其實增加2.9%增加4.7%增加2.8%其實喔這個用電說3%的預估我覺得有可能低估了有可能遠遠超過3%您覺得呢是不是有可能如果蓬勃發展的話那"},{"start":8008.742,"end":8021.75,"text":"3%的預估是根據過去的歷史記錄平均1.8%增加到3%所以有可能其實是會超過3%的對不對這個委員所指教的可能會超過"},{"start":8022.935,"end":8038.255,"text":"那部長知道說我們下一座要除役的機組是什麼時候要除役嗎就是核電的機組都知道今年7月27號就不到兩個月以後我們的核三廠的第1號機就要停止商轉了"},{"start":8039.116,"end":8063.605,"text":"那再過一年明年的5月17號二號機也要停止商轉了這個核三廠除役之後大約會有6%至7%的用電缺口再加上你每年要最基本保守估計3%我們從明年開始每年會有10%的用電缺口那目前我們都是在努力要這個"},{"start":8065.146,"end":8066.628,"text":"部長,您知道我們總共這三年來撥補了台電多少錢嗎?"},{"start":8079.502,"end":8080.062,"text":"您有沒有什麼看法要解決這個問題呢?"},{"start":8109.191,"end":8124.708,"text":"這個目前我因為剛到台第18天所以我還沒有那麼多的時間可以去思考這個部分可能要拜託部長省慎的思考評估有沒有一個新的作為要來突破這個困難因為目前核能每度電是1.1元天然氣發電是他的3倍3.09元那這個"},{"start":8129.873,"end":8139.657,"text":"再生能源的話更貴是5.47元那所以我也很好奇說為什麼我們不用便宜的乾淨的能源呢部長也會不會覺得很納悶呢這個問題我還在思考就是等於是說有沒有可能爭取核三研議呢如果核三研議可以為台灣再爭取兩次三年的空間部長有考慮過嗎"},{"start":8158.207,"end":8179.727,"text":"現在河山的問題是我們都有考慮不過因為河山基於這個法令的規範他一定要這個停議是可以修法其實經濟部也可以主動提修法經濟部有考慮說主動來提出修法嗎跟委員報告就是說他停下來再付大概要三年"},{"start":8181.647,"end":8200.914,"text":"所以你現在還有時間喔!7月27號才要第一座機組停止喔!你現在趕快來提出的還有機會喔!現在是你最關鍵的寶貴時間了!所以根據程序來講的話,那麼他一定要停3年以後才可以再上案"},{"start":8201.873,"end":8224.885,"text":"這個是有機會可以討論的我真心希望說部長您現在好好的跟您的幕僚人員討論這個問題因為在歐洲在美國其實他的核電機組是可以運營到40至60年的那我們其實運營的時間只有他的一半所以我覺得這是值得討論的那另外喔台電產賠4千億是因為天然氣的價格提高這是他們所說的那"},{"start":8229.807,"end":8257.166,"text":"但是我們在一年前就已經回落到戰前的這個價格水平了但我們台電到目前為止還在繼續賠到底我們買了什麼樣子的天然氣合約是不是可以請部長調閱相關資料並公佈合約過去台電也被曾經傳出說購煤的弊案那經濟部就曾經公佈這是有潛力的所以也請部長是不是能夠提供給本委員會相關的資料"},{"start":8260.066,"end":8260.866,"text":"資料一定可以提供給委員"},{"start":8290.707,"end":8317.661,"text":"部長好 部長好想請教一下因為我們看到最近中國又在這個5月31號公告說要終止ECFA部分產品的關稅減讓然後這一次這個終止的部分總共有134項在第一次終止關稅減讓的部分是在去年12月21號他終止的部分是12項"},{"start":8318.942,"end":8318.962,"text":"實劃事項"},{"start":8349.062,"end":8352.905,"text":"那在這個部分有很多都是我們的傳產那要請問一下這個衝擊我們準備好了嗎要怎麼去應對"},{"start":8361.825,"end":8382.712,"text":"這個ECFA的問題我想這個不是第一次所以因為是第二次所以在之前我們都有所準備所以我們盤點過了以後這134項的部分其實它的影響我們在看起來整體出口的影響並不是很大但是就如同委員您所指教的它是傳統產業我們認為就是應該要幫助它趕快轉移市場脫離這一個比較不是那麼"},{"start":8391.015,"end":8391.055,"text":"經濟部部長"},{"start":8406.032,"end":8406.172,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8422.702,"end":8423.923,"text":"全世界出口的2%"},{"start":8443.524,"end":8443.584,"text":"主席"},{"start":8456.499,"end":8481.013,"text":"因為這些面對的是傳產所以我們傳產其實我知道臺南有很多隱形產業他們早就把市場都轉移了他們並沒有把雞蛋放在中國所以對於這些產業我們更應該全力支持所以我們今天所看到的訊息跟資料雖然在6月15號"},{"start":8482.814,"end":8485.5,"text":"他們將終止第二次的一個關稅減讓"},{"start":8487.95,"end":8488.81,"text":"我們已經有一套辦法"},{"start":8515.495,"end":8516.216,"text":"怎麼去協助?"},{"start":8526.826,"end":8530.289,"text":"所以你們有盤點出來說這2%受影響的是哪些產業而且是哪些項目跟目標這些都有了嗎"},{"start":8552.23,"end":8571.886,"text":"所以這個部分你們都有掌控再來我們總共其實ECFA的找收清單總共是有521項那他一次砍兩次砍第三次他要再砍多少不知道那請問對於這後面的部分我們也有準備好了嗎"},{"start":8572.786,"end":8599.651,"text":"我們會開始來準備趕快來計算一下子然後先跟這些業者能夠做一些溝通然後請他們提升他自己的這個商品轉型對轉型然後幫他因為這個市場不會說只有中國啦是所以任何一個商品我們大概就可以離開中國還可以找到新的市場我想這個在全球上面不會說只有在中國的市場"},{"start":8600.111,"end":8600.832,"text":"謝謝委員因為競爭力就是敏感"},{"start":8623.598,"end":8623.798,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8644.071,"end":8658.623,"text":"我們已經有掌控了他第二次就是這2%受影響的那我們要趕快積極協助讓他們有感而不是現在手足無措這是重點好那我們要再去看"},{"start":8659.804,"end":8687.207,"text":"預防因為中國他要做什麼動作你真的不知道而且我說的我們是一個遇到惡鄰居這個惡鄰居隨時就會干擾那我們要面對說他的干擾我們還可以立於不敗之地也就是要協助我們產業轉型我們不預期說他第三次會有多少又去終止關稅減讓可是我們先針對這些後續"},{"start":8689.844,"end":8716.123,"text":"我們要怎麼幫他轉型盤整一下那部長請問這個盤整需要多久的時間我想我們會透過這一次AI的這個整頓這個AI可以幫助百工百業我想提更效率降低節能減碳的這個效能這個是大家很清楚的所以我們會快速的特別是對中小企業跟這個傳產"},{"start":8718.178,"end":8739.162,"text":"我們希望透過這個機構的力量然後來幫助他們先提升他的競爭力我認為只有提升他的競爭力他路才走得更遠所以我要離開中國這個市場那他必須要有競爭力進到第二個市場所以提升競爭力我個人認為這個是我們勢在必行"},{"start":8742.003,"end":8742.384,"text":"﹚立法院第11會議"},{"start":8759.266,"end":8784.095,"text":"我們可來幫忙他們來做我們先盤整我們是不是利用三個月把這些後續我們要未雨綢繆就是說有可能我們預期好他第三次整個這個都把我們減讓的部分全部都終止掉了我們還可以利於不敗之地三個月把這些有可能受影響的把它盤整出來然後再針對這些盤整的產業"},{"start":8786.536,"end":8789.898,"text":"每一個產業他所需要協助的AI的方向是不一樣的我們要怎麼樣去協助個別否個別的案子否個別的專案我覺得這樣子"},{"start":8812.745,"end":8829.14,"text":"整個企業才會往上提升,他們才會有感,他們才不會擔心害怕,他們什麼時候成為下一波被終止關稅減讓的對象,好不好?是的,我想3個月內我們一定會提出一份報告給委員,謝謝委員。好,謝謝陳廷飛委員,謝謝部長。來接下來我們請謝伊鳳委員發言。"},{"start":8849.054,"end":8850.403,"text":"謝謝主席,我想要請郭部長"},{"start":8861.155,"end":8883.928,"text":"副部長早委員好你故事擅長的是在科技在半導體產業那的確我們其他的傳產向機械公務會也在討論就是這一次的ECFA的早抽清單裡面其中就是在機械項目裡面大部分都被種植"},{"start":8885.109,"end":8899.434,"text":"關稅可能由0%變成8%到10%這樣的情況在今年度我們的出口又下降的情況下4月它是月減7%年減11.8%"},{"start":8902.935,"end":8902.955,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":8921.083,"end":8936.431,"text":"這個對中國的市場來講的話因為他今年的景氣也很差所以他其實對這些工具機這些需求其實也是相對的減少一方面中國自己本土的廠商也都上來了"},{"start":8937.271,"end":8957.285,"text":"中國在做這個逆向工程是非常的厲害所以我們如果不是有很高深的這個這個這裡面的特殊的技術存在那有保護的話其實很快都會被copy那中國對逆向工程的使用我想大家都非常的清楚我們剛從這個Tesla"},{"start":8958.766,"end":8961.649,"text":"對我們來講臺灣來講我們應該讓我們國內的廠商去發展其他的這個市場那他可不可以切入半導體的"},{"start":8981.781,"end":8988.976,"text":"我們自己的機械工會可不可以切入我們台灣的半導體的這個設備的"},{"start":8991.803,"end":9021,"text":"一部分是不是你有辦法協助他們嗎我們當然這個臺灣如果說在這個半導體你現在就已經是臺灣的經濟部長啦是不是你不是半導體產業的那個你是要怎麼樣子協助我們的機械工會切入半導體產業啊是不是如果不要往外那是不是怎麼樣子切入我們臺灣的半導體的設備裡面啊這個部分怎麼做"},{"start":9021.873,"end":9038.172,"text":"這部分我想這個很重要就是他們的本身的這個自己學習的能力跟自我成長的能力啦這個做這個一般的這個機械工具機跟做半導體的設備精密設備差非常的多"},{"start":9039.192,"end":9062.851,"text":"這裡面要有非常多物理、光學、化學材料的這些工程師那台灣所做的這個機械大部分都只有機械工程師就可以做出來這裡面有非常大的差異所以我們台灣的這個機械要進入半導體的話只能做一些比較粗淺的就是二極體、電晶體這樣的一個領域不過從這個地方學習"},{"start":9068.296,"end":9077.028,"text":"實際上未來的電動車所用的半導體跟宇宙衛星所用的半導體是不一樣的。台灣可以從這些電動車的設備還是可以的"},{"start":9084.658,"end":9109.778,"text":"你認為是有機會發展?因為現在面臨的,你有辦法影響匯率嗎?經濟部長有辦法影響匯率嗎?恐怕沒辦法吧?是不是?那日幣也大幅的貶值,韓幣也是。那對於他們機械產業的外銷,那當然就是注意就相當的大嘛。那我們在沒有這樣子的情況下,怎麼樣子提升我們這些機械產業的"},{"start":9111.28,"end":9112.12,"text":"那你什麼時候可以定位出來?"},{"start":9134.963,"end":9137.264,"text":"那你認為就是如果我們往東南亞往印度市場那他們預計可以達到就是說"},{"start":9161.876,"end":9166.498,"text":"外商、美商、歐洲商會都提出了對於台灣電力韌性的疑慮,你怎麼解決?"},{"start":9191.335,"end":9211.218,"text":"電氣韌性的部分我們會優先來處理目前比較人多的地方或者用電需求比較大的地方或者是設備老舊的地方這個地方可能會比較容易產生因為老舊而造成一些事件那有沒有缺電的問題缺電不缺電缺電這個事件是不缺電的"},{"start":9211.678,"end":9215.86,"text":"未來如果就如同大家估計的預估如果沒有AI部分AI產業沒有爆炸性的發展就是沒有辦法達到爆炸性發展我們就預估是3%左右"},{"start":9231.445,"end":9237.051,"text":"3%左右,每年都要增加3%用電的情況下,我預計2025年是不是有用電的缺口?"},{"start":9249.315,"end":9258.711,"text":"我們現在增加的部分這個我想我必須要重新再確認一下就是2%到3%怎麼會這樣子你剛才說"},{"start":9263.103,"end":9263.363,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9283.922,"end":9311.761,"text":"更多也可能不只有這樣子所以我必須要再重新再確認過一一的確認過以後因為這個增加的部分就是數據中心的部分如果是普通的因為server使用而增加的部分確實是會落在我們預估的這個3%之內但是數據中心它的數據中心有大有小就我所訪問出來的數據中心一個數據中心它可能增加的那研發中心呢"},{"start":9312.361,"end":9318.147,"text":"AI的研發中心要不要用綠電?要用綠電他這個部門跟委員報告他用綠電神哥關心的說核電可不可用?不能用"},{"start":9335.959,"end":9336.44,"text":"在醫院的發展呢?"},{"start":9348.806,"end":9349.346,"text":"我們會遵守法律規定"},{"start":9374.141,"end":9402.7,"text":"那法規所以你們就是要按照法規的規定我想這個公務系統一切依法行事那如果有自然難行的地方我們就提修法好所以目前就是按照法律的規定按照法律規定那如果未來AI的機器人跟病人產生相關異議的時候怎麼樣處理還是依法律規定的進行沒有法律了現在就沒有法律了"},{"start":9404.039,"end":9404.579,"text":"李玉琳委員發言"},{"start":9434.456,"end":9461.806,"text":"謝謝主席 請郭部長謝謝部長部長您辛苦了第一次來到我們這邊做個詢答在那個早上你的感覺怎麼樣在企業在跟來到我們立法院的感覺呢"},{"start":9462.659,"end":9462.819,"text":"主席"},{"start":9477.819,"end":9483.562,"text":"在現在我們台灣的產業的整個策略上您提到說今年的經濟榮景是歸功於半導體的發展未來這50年除了繼續發揮著半導體的趨勢優勢之外現在的AI科技產業也會醞釀更大的潛力跟商機那而AI的晶片跟伺服器有9成就在台灣生產"},{"start":9499.531,"end":9514.548,"text":"：議員"},{"start":9514.548,"end":9539.531,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":9540.563,"end":9569.031,"text":"我們還是會全力充斥這個綠能的部分在綠能部分而且你剛剛也提到說你會先著手在光的部分也就是太陽能也就是太陽能那部長你知道太陽啊晚上就沒有太陽了這不穩定啊所以你這麼有信心說用光來補足這個再生能源而且再生能源在2030年你就要達到30%的這個中期的目標你有信心喔"},{"start":9570.012,"end":9580.574,"text":"我跟委員報告一下稍微稍微 容我稍微說明一下子剛才是說 我在說光是在創立電最快的方式"},{"start":9581.601,"end":9607.208,"text":"就是我們創這個電我們可能來自於火力、水力然後太陽能、風力所以本是要提醒你它不穩定對我們不像一些那個東南亞國家的那個太陽照射的那個光能可以儲存這麼多所有的這個光能或者是風能的話我們有儲能跟這個智慧電網可以來調度所以基本上它來滿足這個用電戶24小時用電這個是沒有問題的"},{"start":9610.209,"end":9617.173,"text":"雖然他創電的這個如你所說的不穩定但是透過我們的除電系統透過我們的這個智慧電網的調度"},{"start":9619.302,"end":9645.433,"text":"公電是可以穩定的所以你們一定要努力的達到2030年的目標30%那本席為什麼會這麼說就是因為我們在世界各國的科技公司像是蘋果啦Google或者是微軟他們2030年都有訂出來淨零碳排的這個問題未來要爭取國際的訂單是非常重要的就必須要淨零排放才能達到這目標那現在只剩下6年的時間"},{"start":9646.593,"end":9661.187,"text":"本席替你們有點緊張了所以你們要加緊腳步去達到這個目標不然的話你如果沒有達到這個目標的話所有的企業會被逼迫去尋找能夠穩定供電的國家"},{"start":9662.627,"end":9676.073,"text":"委員指教,我們也需要委員來支持臺電在風力跟太陽能這方面的創電,因為這裡面我們目前大概碰到一些小小的阻礙,也希望大家共同來支持臺電在這方面創電。"},{"start":9677.073,"end":9677.153,"text":"主席"},{"start":9702.662,"end":9702.742,"text":"副市長"},{"start":9720.771,"end":9742.365,"text":"謝謝委員的指教確實是有放進去但是事實上我們現在台電人力也不足維修的人力也不足所以你現在要趕快的把這計畫方要做新的計畫新的預算來做但是這整個配電這個管線更新的系統不是一蹴而成的所以需要時間"},{"start":9743.326,"end":9743.346,"text":"韓山廠"},{"start":9766.009,"end":9776.782,"text":"一號機七月份就要除役了二號機明年也要除役了所以你要說要河山廠要做備援的電力那怎麼樣去做備援"},{"start":9778.913,"end":9794.629,"text":"這個可能這個委員有一點誤會我所說的這個7月份不擔心這個電的問題是因為我們有其他的這個備載的這個機組都上來所以都上來都有到位嗎對會到位部長"},{"start":9796.391,"end":9807.997,"text":"在這今年的信達廠一號二號機除役還有民營的麥寮一號機二號機的合約也到期再加上合商廠的一號機七月就要除役了這會不會短少315萬瓦的這個電力這少了五個機組喔雖然說你說在新的機組裡面像是這個"},{"start":9816.841,"end":9840.299,"text":"封得3號機跟大潭的7號9號機跟這個新達新的這一號機會補足443萬瓦的電好像新的電有多於大於這個這個機組這個減少的電但是部長這些電的商轉都要測試都要點火萬一不順利失敗的話你這個缺電的這個缺口"},{"start":9841.617,"end":9861.357,"text":"這缺口你怎麼樣去補助 這空窗期是怎麼辦呢我們不會讓它產生空窗期啦 因為我們測試最近在走他測試 還沒有測試啊因為在你111年的全國電力資源供需的報告裡面這些我剛剛講的這些新的機組 6月就要投入使用"},{"start":9862.017,"end":9862.237,"text":"請問測試完成順利?"},{"start":9876.425,"end":9876.485,"text":"主席"},{"start":9895.049,"end":9895.209,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9924.889,"end":9924.969,"text":"經濟部部長"},{"start":9944.62,"end":9944.76,"text":"人力培養"},{"start":9959.824,"end":9959.964,"text":"主席"},{"start":9985.592,"end":9986.653,"text":"主席,現在有請我們郭部長來,請郭部長"},{"start":10022.881,"end":10051.472,"text":"郭部長委員好你從企業界出身非常注重那個公司治理那你來了我相信你從從業集團不大的公司在手裡一直茁壯長大表示公司的治理非常好那我很少對國營事業提示一些執行那今天我要跟部長報告我們的台廠裡面"},{"start":10053.46,"end":10058.705,"text":"關於我們的西木養殖場到現在一直都還沒有完成"},{"start":10059.676,"end":10085.518,"text":"而且接受到查現在還有未報端你不要緊張部長好好切實了解一下我們這個公司在競爭要公平不要被人為的因素所影響民間的公司他有資訊有能力大家去調整這第一點請台黨委屈有必要來問我我會跟你講我們要如何合理公平的答應"},{"start":10087.452,"end":10105.703,"text":"第一位,大家談到飛塔、營運化中心,高雄要哪裡也要。我不知道郭部長,你做企業期間要去廟宁走過嗎?還是走到新竹科學院就沒有過了我們廟宁?有啦,我廟宁也是很重要的客人。我知道。"},{"start":10107.321,"end":10119.067,"text":"我美國我命令好山好水,我水庫有五座,現在準備蓋一座,我還有通宵綠化電廠,所以不缺水不缺電。"},{"start":10120.543,"end":10145.84,"text":"第二,好山好水,緣泉非常沉穩,勞動力非常直掛,尤其他在新職科學園區一變。不能只往立的執政或是大都市走,我問苗栗市中心點,他北聯的新職科學園區,南列的台中科學園區只缺了這一段,你把輝達"},{"start":10147.321,"end":10148.042,"text":"委員我幫你報告"},{"start":10160.572,"end":10165.874,"text":"我早就台積電叫我在竹蘭設一個半導體產業鏈聯席就是大溪谷計畫考慮在那個地方不要偏袒"},{"start":10182.802,"end":10183.082,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10204.995,"end":10222.91,"text":"什麼立法院執行刑事馬上讓外資賣掉,哎喲,國際的勝利,差來也吵來吵去,不要被這個影響,有起有伏,不能說賣掉就好,好不好?以前好,但是我待會再給它額落一點點,這一點沒什麼好啦。再來啊,部長,我看你這個經濟部長的這四年多,你真的很好。"},{"start":10233.553,"end":10257.089,"text":"尤其現在AI的那個產業裏面世界所有的九大巨頭都全部在臺灣的U條碼卡跟我們選舉一樣把他拉過來 拉過來算我的靠山所以請問但是這一點你要注意這個問題你會不會問這個部長水電勞工你一定要好好準備那水的話"},{"start":10262.694,"end":10280.473,"text":"水利市最近天下了很多雨你可以坐下來可以坐在那邊很少人吃電我們的曾次長曾董事長要加油現在大家都講你見不過但是我跟臺電那麼久我也全力的在支持臺電通銷各種建設"},{"start":10282.753,"end":10305.635,"text":"通宵、電廠、離岸婚禮第一座都是我在跟你們主持成功的。施亂就好了,你們要努力,不要給部長擔憂。我相信窮則變,變則通,你把電鍋給我好,自己的勞工很欠缺,我跟你們講。所以這一點你就溫溫啦,但是我教你一個,你不要亂講話。"},{"start":10308.551,"end":10326.386,"text":"反核,核電你不要講,說我覺得有必要,反核是執政黨的神指牌,是執政黨的赫黨神山啦!我會說你們亂講話,不然你講話馬上不保,我和朋友我才跟你講啦!"},{"start":10327.742,"end":10351.435,"text":"我告訴你你不要只有帶著微笑這個深刻體驗我們不要去把人家孫子爬台上不然官位不老黨運不容好不好謝謝 謝謝委員再來一點你講到AI的產業你有講到一個重點現在所有AI的產業都在講伺服器"},{"start":10353.646,"end":10376.853,"text":"好幾家都會做但是部長你要有一個能力喔我們不是廉價的勞工啊優秀廉價勞工那會不會紅海市長啥來上去都沒有利潤跟我們的電腦一樣你不要感到只有3%的利潤這個可以預取得到你看一些大咖來抓莊角他也是要來砍下閣啦"},{"start":10378.82,"end":10406.123,"text":"因為只有臺積電能做出來我們才有這樣我希望你有深深的體會到我們不能讓臺灣的廠商自相的殘差另外我特別提到AI是它的運算桌邊的能力創新能力最重要這一點要加強把臺灣在AI應用邊緣應用的那個能力一定要加強我今天早上看了一個說"},{"start":10407.85,"end":10432.654,"text":"你在五年內要領IC設計廠起身前排,這個好,軟禮賺錢,硬體是載來載去,載到最後我們台灣很可憐,非常漂亮,但是沒有真的賺到錢,這點我相信你有深深的感受,因為你賣財經營的營業比較不會感受到,我講了沒得力了,你跟我回答一下。"},{"start":10433.988,"end":10448.922,"text":"我想這個臺灣來講的話未來我們要全力發展的就是AI的這個應用人才因為這個如同這個委員所指導的這個硬體是賺不了什麼錢這個AI社會比較有實力的大家都發動做"},{"start":10452.961,"end":10454.182,"text":"這世界大公司來"},{"start":10471.789,"end":10487.123,"text":"我以前高通在這邊設研發中心,他有一個7億美金的本來要來做我們賠償,結果做投資提前用,他這7億拿去省市壓管去叫台積電的人,台積電的人去叫研發課的人,研發課的人去叫學科的人"},{"start":10490.986,"end":10515.058,"text":"臺灣今年就是這麼人在地啊李慧榮來遭遇到這樣我一直在強調這一點但是我們的形勢一直安若無鐵管美國可以印鈔票我們臺灣不能印鈔票因為他管的形勢你老拜帶動臺灣所以你保管老公這個是環環相扣的啊對臺灣是很有幫忙的啊是不是你要注意這個問題啊"},{"start":10516.599,"end":10516.759,"text":"主席"},{"start":10541.363,"end":10542.303,"text":"我們的那個那個什麼三話那個什麼剛剛通過了"},{"start":10570.612,"end":10571.497,"text":"必須要再深化"},{"start":10572.526,"end":10598.926,"text":"要好好治癒啊這大健康產業啊我跟我們的部長報告可能有一個護國損傷會出現但是我覺得你們在生技產業裡面經濟部的編制太小太小既然大產業也是你們在負責不是衛福部他只有負責整體試驗在那個生技產業的試驗之中"},{"start":10601.247,"end":10628.746,"text":"麻煩,這個要加強。但是最後一個問題,我們那麼好結果多講幾分鐘,你站起來再一兩分鐘。那裡面有談到,我剛剛你五大產業,半導體產業,人工智慧產業看起來可以了。那安控產業就是跟資安軟體有關係。那通信產業5G、6G,包括你低軌衛星,這個都在發展,世界都在拼。"},{"start":10630.55,"end":10652.904,"text":"現在有一個軍工產業阿你怎麼不來報告我剛剛到立法院看了很多阿那個做買賣武器阿做飛機在這邊繞來繞去阿這有什麼關係我也看你的那個業務報告你說你指導的只有三個軍工產業不在那邊我只講一句話"},{"start":10654.264,"end":10664.51,"text":"不要把台灣當作武器庫我們可以做代工做加工我們要監視其間因為你講的一句話很重要今天有一篇報導"},{"start":10666.158,"end":10685.909,"text":"你部長可能就要接受地緣政治的考驗剛剛講說大陸的表演,改天我給你討論ECFAECFA其實很嚴重,你們講的輕盲亂寫尤其那幾個機械我碰到很多成衣的布料進去本來是台商在那都買台灣的布料,現在他們不敢買,8%的關稅"},{"start":10688.928,"end":10705.634,"text":"我相信十月屆的人出來要面對問題解決問題不要說人家好聽現在是你好果硬的除了我們的AI電腦展這樣舒適很大百花燦爛台灣最有前途其實要求法把要求法閹掉"},{"start":10706.714,"end":10721.1,"text":"蓋掉了,但是要好好研究,中小企業是本人,隱形企業的冠軍很多在那邊,不要充滿造型,把它忽視掉好不好,改天再跟你討論中小企業就會很危險,你說的一關齁,什麼企業館叫什麼禮物客來,"},{"start":10725.942,"end":10726.202,"text":"來 請郭部長"},{"start":10755.912,"end":10771.327,"text":"主席先趁這個時間宣告一下我們中午就不休息延長開會時間到登記發言的委員都質詢完畢為止我們再休息那就請各位同仁如果有需要上洗手間的就請自己自行處理"},{"start":10773.367,"end":10797.666,"text":"好 謝謝部長辛苦了首先要肯定部長願意從產業界來到政府部門來出任部長來為台灣一起打拼那我先秀第一張圖這個AI的時代來臨部長也說過那台灣跟AI其實是共勝共榮的關係那也確實台灣也搭上了AI這個時代的一個腳步部長怎麼看AI跟台灣未來的關係"},{"start":10798.936,"end":10823.701,"text":"AI跟臺灣的關係我想就是這個AI跟世界這個連結的開始那個昨天這個Intel的老闆就講這個IT等於Intel加上臺灣所以大家可以瞭解啦過去我們在講IC是講這個India跟這個China不過現在AI的時代"},{"start":10824.923,"end":10853.808,"text":"確實是這個AI server跟從AI chip做到AI server到AI的application我想這個臺灣是最有條件所以臺灣未來也會跟著AI一起來更躍上世界的一個腳步世界會連結到臺灣來我看了一下部長的口頭報告你裡面八頁裡面你光AI就談到了30次大概也是有史以來我看到AI最多的一個次數那也看出部長對AI這塊也有深大的一些期許跟期待"},{"start":10856.77,"end":10868.442,"text":"包括部長也提到了未來IC設計業能夠5年內拚到全球前2部長怎麼來做?我們現在的IC設計業事實上已經是全球第2美國第一佔68台灣第二佔18中國第三佔16"},{"start":10874.407,"end":10896.33,"text":"我的意思就是說我們必須要保持在第二的位置穩定這個位置我們希望能夠佔全球大概超過20%這個是我自我期許的目標那因為中國他在發展也非常的快中國過去在軟體的這個時代在Cloudy他們做的其實他是世界第二的"},{"start":10897.253,"end":10923.886,"text":"那到AI這個時代大家都歸零重新開始在發展的時候我認為台灣因為AI的chip只有台灣能做AI的server台灣做了九成所以這個AI application應該從台灣開始散開所以台灣如果說能夠讓百工百業都有很多在這個運用的工程師的話那麼從台灣散出去我想這個就是台灣未來可以影響全球的部分"},{"start":10924.226,"end":10939.667,"text":"部長你早上也有提到就是說整個包括接下來幾個研發中心的部分在不管是輝達甚至AMD的部分其他的未來有機會在台灣有更多的一些投資的部分那裡面有提到高雄亞灣那高雄亞灣其實"},{"start":10941.489,"end":10968.409,"text":"過去來這個地方其實是加工出口區50年前創造台灣奇蹟的地方但是這一段時間以來不管亞洲新灣區甚至在8年前以後開始在推動也是進一步主導推動5G IoT投入106億到後來亞灣2.0這個智慧科技創新園區投入170億其實都是在做這些的佈局所以現在的佈局慢慢也看到更多的成果也就是說做好的準備之後也迎接了"},{"start":10973.534,"end":10980.56,"text":"部長,回答投資在高雄這件事情,特別是在亞灣這件事情應該大致上已經有一個眉目出來了,是吧?"},{"start":10981.776,"end":11000.691,"text":"以我所了解的我還是一樣感覺我沒有人告訴我他會到高雄也沒有人指示我說他會到高雄不過我個人的感覺這個經濟委員會有四位委員是來自於高雄就可以想到這個影響力應該是非常的大"},{"start":11001.391,"end":11022.673,"text":"恐怕也不是經濟委員會的影響力啦我認為從企業界的嗅覺跟整個高雄的這個布局的狀況我認為高雄其實已經做好了相關的一些準備整個整體上的一些布局包括電的部分來講就好啦其實但未來的這些不管半導體或是AI都需要大量的電力高雄的電有40%往中往北送"},{"start":11023.334,"end":11038.382,"text":"而高雄即使做這麼多充足的電力的時候高雄還繼續在興達電廠在大陵電廠持續在增加燃氣的電廠高雄就完全的充分的做這些準備包括人才的部分也做了相關的一些準備不管是中山大學、清大"},{"start":11038.982,"end":11041.063,"text":"是的,我非常同意委員所說的,花若盛開,蝴蝶自來所以沒有這麼好的準備"},{"start":11065.598,"end":11091.543,"text":"這些數據中心一定會去那也期待部長就你能夠協助的範圍讓整個臺灣能夠區域均衡發展就當然我們知道在臺北已經有一個了那在高雄未來這個如果輝達能夠在高雄設計設置第二座的這個研發中心的時候他會形成更強的一個區域上的效果部長你看一下這個亞灣明天你也會到亞灣去他其實就是一個非常棒的一個港灣城市"},{"start":11092.383,"end":11094.445,"text":"曾經邁市長邀請你來說 給你三個博位 給那個回答三個博位就講這樣"},{"start":11111.664,"end":11130.335,"text":"所以我認為他是一個充分的具備把人才吸引來的一個充分優勢的一個地方我也希望部長跟整個包括司長處長能夠大力來促成啦謝謝委員我想那個三個博位給這個這個MVDR不是給我啦對對對"},{"start":11132.109,"end":11150.669,"text":"我們再講一下啦齁 這各位看一下 包括日月光 包括台積電 仁寶 偉創 鴻海 森忍 甚至這個微軟的這個鴻海大樓啦齁 等等的齁 這個超級電腦 Type 1 的部分 包括甚至生態園區等等 全部都已經群聚過到高雄來了齁 所以我認為這個"},{"start":11151.63,"end":11170.828,"text":"：議員"},{"start":11170.948,"end":11191.548,"text":"持續來支持 不只是這個輝達甚至AMD等等甚至其他的有機會多鼓勵他們到一個用電充足地方政府友善同時間水也具備了同時間土地也具備了一個地點同時有空港海港的一些優勢的時候讓南部的優秀人才能夠在南部有好的發展好不好"},{"start":11192.148,"end":11219.874,"text":"是的 謝謝委員謝謝部長接下來我要再講的是除了這個它的旁邊而已啦其實有一個前鎮的原來的加工出口區這是前鎮的園區啦那經過過去沈榮金部長包括毛部長的大力支持我們做了一個前瞻的這個計畫241來改造把一些舊的大樓改造跟部長提到以前我第一次當立委的時候還有那個建築長一棵榕樹長在上面的"},{"start":11220.314,"end":11239.886,"text":"後來我們找了經費之後把它給拆掉現在蓋成嶄新的科技的大樓現在新的產業都進駐我認為這個都是未來高雄發展亞灣發展一個重要的願景我也希望部長繼續支持在前瞻園區的這個風華再現的計畫繼續投入更多的一些建設讓老舊的大樓更新同時間"},{"start":11240.666,"end":11241.006,"text":"請部長也持續來重視"},{"start":11258.058,"end":11276.963,"text":"在我看部長的報告裡面其實你提到了幾個重點不管是半導體AI甚至於投資全球的佈局供電的部分我剛才也提到了我想供電的部分持續來推動相關的不管是燃氣電廠我們來支持以外我想綠電也是一個非常重要產業而且是全世界不管是我們在這個"},{"start":11279.203,"end":11294.56,"text":"剪碳的部分我們的一些長遠的目標這也是國際的各企業所重視的那我們看到其實這個不管是光電離岸風電甚至於整個一些地熱等等的部長未來會持續來大力推動整個綠電吧"},{"start":11296.095,"end":11310.283,"text":"未來我們是全力推動綠電我認為綠電其實是更具有國人的高度共識核電其實遇到核廢料的問題遇到安全的問題還有人民的溝通的問題其實那都需要相當的時間還有法令的問題"},{"start":11311.323,"end":11330.67,"text":"我覺得那個都需要相當時間,恐怕也緩不及急,但是綠電是可以加快它的速度的,讓我們過去用這個短購費率的方式去支持,我也希望未來部長這一塊來大力支持,讓我們的電力更加多元化,同時綠電也是國際的趨勢,同時台灣在離岸風電在太陽光電都有非常好的優勢"},{"start":11331.59,"end":11332.271,"text":"謝謝賴瑞榮委員 謝謝郭部長接下來我們請邱志維委員發言"},{"start":11368.291,"end":11397.243,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請經濟部的郭部長來,請郭部長部長昨天我夜觀天象整個AI整個風是往南方吹整個AI的雲系都集中在高雄上空"},{"start":11399.725,"end":11423.317,"text":"這個我也深暗天理你要觀天象也要知道天理天理變幻無常不要拘泥於特定地方條件好的地方優先考量當然那個人說是雅灣不見得是雅灣只要在高雄就好我的工具比較大夜觀天象跟我深暗天理"},{"start":11424.687,"end":11451.963,"text":"我們千里要遵從天象他給我們一個指引所以這個最近這個陽明交大在高雄設立分校這個聯談會館那個基地我沒有說要設在橋頭只要是在高雄對整個AI生態系能夠培養不限制揮打其他的AI相關的這個國際的重要廠商"},{"start":11455.815,"end":11458.236,"text":"這部長你同意嗎?"},{"start":11483.73,"end":11504.394,"text":"我想是這樣子就是說所有的地方就是那個條件應該是他們業者所選擇的那您剛才在講說在南部嘛我想這個風向吹到那裡大概他們也會走到那裡南部的高雄高雄那因為高雄非常的大高雄非常的大就是在中心嘛就是說聯談會館那個地方"},{"start":11508.247,"end":11510.669,"text":"會不會有缺電問題?我請董事長,董事長最了解,會不會有缺電問題?"},{"start":11538.277,"end":11556.47,"text":"高雄有3個店長4個店長所以沒有缺點問題水公司會不會缺水的問題各位報告水公司我們會全力以赴全力以赴就代表沒有問題萬事皆被只欠東風東風又由部長這邊吹出來"},{"start":11560.99,"end":11575.694,"text":"我向這個委員報告,就是選擇高雄或者是選擇南部,我想對這個業者來講,他們有充分的這個核算。這個您剛才講的,您舉的那幾個條件,應該都是他們考量的這個範疇。"},{"start":11580.956,"end":11588.862,"text":"所以我剛才有舉這個花若盛開,蝴蝶自來,如果你的條件剛好,他們就會進來。來,那個水利署,署長。這個水利署的專業我想,這個我星期一剛一考察,這個113年應急啊,你把我駁回很多啊。"},{"start":11607.3,"end":11626.007,"text":"這部分我希望說這個我都親自去看過一原水地區你要加強補助啊你只核定我4000萬那我昨天去看比修排水第一至一期第二期缺口也是大概1.4億這個部分這個有關於生命財產安全啊那橋頭科技園區關係到產業的發展組長這個1.4億橋科的排水比修排水這個優先來補助可以嗎"},{"start":11634.09,"end":11659.401,"text":"阿對 如委員所說的筆秀排水臨近於橋頭園區阿那我們第三期的部分已經優先在做我知道我知道那你禮拜一去看那個二期的部分我們在前瞻的五期的部分阿這個會在優先依照評比的次序來做考量另外協定湖內鹿竹岡山這一淹水地區我每一案子有親自去看過阿你們沒有支持那我希望說今年能夠納入應急工程"},{"start":11660.68,"end":11661.1,"text":"經濟部副次長"},{"start":11691.142,"end":11712.347,"text":"新創!新創你們在這個國際創業聚落,你們在林口設立新創區,然後在這個高雄要設立亞灣新創區,上一回我諮詢這個王部長的時候,你們也答應在北高雄也籌備一個北高雄新創區,目前進度為何?"},{"start":11713.287,"end":11721.791,"text":"跟委員報告北高雄我們當然了解就是南科要在橋頭設遠區這塊會跟南科管理局那邊做了解那台電"},{"start":11731.856,"end":11738.569,"text":"新達電廠的這些相關的運轉一延再延 特別是燃氣機組燃氣的正式商轉的時間會不會再往後延"},{"start":11744.586,"end":11767.835,"text":"我們目前就是規劃他12月就他應該是在第三季就會點火第四季就會完成可以接受調控所以一延再延本來是今年2月延到今年12月他就這一個部分是因為我想委員都有清楚因為你長期都在關心嘛因為那個地方我們在鹽灘地上面興建其實地址的部分花了比較多時間那中間也遇到了疫情不過"},{"start":11768.815,"end":11788.823,"text":"我們現在的工程進度就扣面了幾步就會稍微就可以加速往前你們要盡量不要拖太久趕快銜接上來那第三號四號的這個藍莓機組你明年除役之後他會轉備用還是就徹底除役跟委員報告就是我們在環評的承諾上面"},{"start":11789.909,"end":11812.947,"text":"明確的寫到就是到今年之後就明年開始他會變成備用機組就是在8%備轉8%以下才會啟動所以他是算是這個火火山的概念應該是說他他就是一個熱機備援的概念那我了解那另外再請部長"},{"start":11814.304,"end":11836.094,"text":"部長你這個境外關內境外關內是過去部長沒有提到的境外關內境外就是非國內嘛一定在國外那有哪些這個國家重點地區已經有成型了或者裡面有目標的區域或目標國家你要在這些國家或這些區域"},{"start":11836.654,"end":11837.555,"text":"九州美國德州歐洲捷克"},{"start":11857.372,"end":11872.428,"text":"所以你在這些捷克美國跟九州這三個是你們未來所要推動的三個境外關內的這個概念嘛對不對關內就是說他的所有的稅是比照於國內待遇喔是不是這樣子"},{"start":11873.129,"end":11901.621,"text":"基本上我們讓他在外面主要幫助他就是他在國外發展的過程裡面我們幫他在當地國可以談到一些這個稅賦的這個減免那他能夠接受因為他在當地國的生產銷售可以連結回來臺灣的這個業績那麼當然是完全關內的待遇對是關內的概念就是他的待遇條件就等於你在國內投資一樣嗎對說你的設廠基地是在九州"},{"start":11902.961,"end":11924.369,"text":"是雄本嗎?還是九州哪裡?不在雄本在九州的摩線然後捷克會在哪裡?在布拉格美國會在哪裡?德州這個是暫定的地方這是成型之後大概會什麼時候?"},{"start":11926.12,"end":11954.537,"text":"陳型應該是我講我們會在這幾個月裡面把它完全這個定型化另外最後一題這sharp line這個是投審師或者是這個市長我問一下這個這個恐怕部長你不是那麼瞭解我直接問一下市長這sharp line的中資的相關的大家的疑問目前有沒有違反我們外資管理規定"},{"start":11956.126,"end":11978.675,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個案子它的上層結構的部分我們還在了解還在行政調查當中還在行政調查所以還有潛在的風險你們要注意喔隱私外資的風險這些你們可能要注意好謝謝委員提醒我們知道所有的外資都要中資都要透過嚴格的這個這個的檢視或是審查所以還在什麼時候會出來呢"},{"start":11980.79,"end":12005.751,"text":"我們盡量努力好 謝謝我很遵守時間我知道我正要稱讚您而已來 部長請回座休息 謝謝邱志偉委員接下來我們請洪森翰委員發言部長也請阿伯請你起立"},{"start":12008.029,"end":12008.87,"text":"主席謝謝請國務部長我不是故意的"},{"start":12026.355,"end":12040.432,"text":"部長好,部長今天是你應該是第一次到經濟委員會來備詢那我剛剛看了一下其實前面有很多不分朝野的委員其實都非常聚焦在電力跟能源的問題"},{"start":12041.994,"end":12066.485,"text":"那我剛才看了我聽了一下大家基本上都是從供給面的方向來給經濟部各種的建議那我覺得這些建議我猜接下來經濟部也都會參考那接下來我要跟部長討論的事情是我們其實在整體的電力供需裡面除了供應一端以外另外也很多人在討論甚至國際上面都在討論的是需求面的解方下一張"},{"start":12068.435,"end":12094.141,"text":"這是前幾天其實在5月底的時候這個IAEA國際能源總署他們第9次的這個年度的全球會議上面其實很清楚其實就講到接下來能不能夠實現升溫1.5度C包括氣候目標甚至電力供應的關鍵點是在於這10年內能源效率能不能夠翻倍這樣子的目標"},{"start":12095.021,"end":12111.86,"text":"事實上能源效率的提升翻倍其實也是去年其實聯合國的氣候變遷大會裡面最重要的結論之一那我們花了很多時間討論核電等等的問題可是大家更大的共識其實是關於能源效率的共識再往下"},{"start":12115.058,"end":12138.628,"text":"事實上其實在這個去年的選舉裡面我們看到賴英德總統其實在他競選的政見裡面也很清楚提到深度節能其實這是一個很完整的相關的深度節能的計畫我想問一下部長部長你對於去年賴總統深度節能的政見現在你開始掌舵經濟部你打算怎麼往下做"},{"start":12139.704,"end":12159.05,"text":"這個exco的部分是我們要強化的部分比過去上一次做exco的部分我們再強化在未來的一直到117年為止我想我們會放大過去的預算然後要求"},{"start":12159.85,"end":12161.091,"text":"我認為我們節能服務產業還是很需要政府的協助的"},{"start":12188.166,"end":12212.437,"text":"尤其是現在我們談到各種智慧化甚至是AI上面的重要的應用跟輔助其實恐怕在ESCO裡面也有很大其實可以應用的空間但這部分因為我們過去ESCO的規模其實坦白說是比較小的大型的沒那麼多那他們很需要政府來協助輔導包括一些技術上面的引進可是我們一直以來其實在節能或者是深度節能最重要的問題"},{"start":12213.698,"end":12242.186,"text":"除了我們要把Xcode生態鏈給建立起來後下一張我們更大的一個點是其實過去在行政部門我們在節能的計畫上面我覺得在計畫的規劃上面是存在著一些問題的我們過去有很多我們政府不是沒有花錢我們花錢做了很多節能設備器具的補助可是通常我們的KPI都是以說補助的件數為KPI結果很多的廠商把這些補助"},{"start":12242.526,"end":12242.826,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12267.42,"end":12292.371,"text":"實質的節電量,節電的績效作為KPI,部長你同不同意?完全同意,我來了以後也發現這個問題。部長我甚至都覺得我們應該,其實政府不是不能在節能上面花錢啊,可是我更覺得我們是不是能夠讓產業界更知道,你節的越多,你可以得到政府的幫助越多,你可以拿到的補助越多,你可以受到的支持越多,但重點是你要節的多,這概念部長也是同意的吧?"},{"start":12292.731,"end":12319.22,"text":"完全同意部長那往下我們當然如果這個同意的話那往下就好多件事情必須想因為節能的績效要怎麼計算這當然是一個技術的問題所以這裡面牽扯到部長來自產業一定很清楚我們的EMIS我們的節能我們的能源的資訊管理的這個呈現的系統其實是能不能夠把節能的績效清楚而科學的計算出來的關鍵所以接下來在這部分我們推進的計畫是什麼部長"},{"start":12321.901,"end":12345.859,"text":"現在你執掌經濟部兩個禮拜的時間兩三個禮拜的時間現在的規劃是什麼節能的部分我們就是如剛才我想委員所指教的這個部分在進行對我自己是希望說部長我對部長期待很深我們是不是能夠在深入節能的上面能夠推出一個從經濟部甚至結合其他部會的一個旗艦型的計畫可以"},{"start":12346.88,"end":12368.191,"text":"在這個旗艦型的計畫上面包括經費包括我們新的在要求上面的規範包括剛剛說KPI上面的改變甚至有包括剛剛說節能產業的生態系的帶動重點但重點是規範部長你知道我們在節能最重要的法規是哪一個"},{"start":12369.813,"end":12370.654,"text":"這我問了很多次了"},{"start":12399.333,"end":12415.159,"text":"現在部內還沒有討論定案不過我想我會加速來整合如果我們剛才照部長說其實接下來經濟部會提出一個深度節能的旗艦型的計畫的話大家一定會問那我們法規上面要怎麼去強化"},{"start":12416.049,"end":12416.209,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":12435.976,"end":12458.362,"text":"兩月以內希望得到委員的協助,能夠讓我們內部整合更快速部長沒有問題,但我們長期跟很多,包括EXCO產業在合作是他們相關的會議,我也很樂意來扮演跟部長之間的橋樑甚至大家可以來做一個座談,讓這些相關的工作可以更順利,得到產業更大的支持這部長,如果我們來辦一個座談"},{"start":12459.022,"end":12459.263,"text":"牛許廷委員發言"},{"start":12487.398,"end":12503.312,"text":"謝謝主席,郭部長有請來請郭部長好,部長午安"},{"start":12505.473,"end":12530.554,"text":"這個2050淨零排放跟轉型基本上是蔡總統這個2022年就推出的能源轉型政策那麼2024年賴清德總統就任之後卓院長也把2050的淨零排放跟轉型納入施政方針之中部長您是來自於民間的部長您在擔任崇越集團董事長的時候有沒有說過化石燃料將逐漸從我們習以為常的生活中淡出靈探趨勢則將迎面而來你有沒有講過這樣的話"},{"start":12534.738,"end":12535.88,"text":"不太記得,我講過很多話"},{"start":12539.875,"end":12566.157,"text":"有啦,這是你幫人家寫書,這個天下雜誌的書推裡面寫的齁當然嘛,你在崇越集團治理的時候,其實你是身體力行地去實踐檢探這件事,這個你總有印象吧?嗯,是是嘛對不對?那你甚至有講過,這個不要等到明天喔,檢探這件事從今天就開始行動本期要特別講這件事是提醒,就是說這個事情即便你今天,現在身為經濟部長這樣子的一個概念,我們希望你把從企業界的概念跟經驗,帶到這個公部門"},{"start":12568.598,"end":12595.458,"text":"來帶領國家社會來共同推動這樣子的一個事情現在部長知不知道我們減碳最大的挑戰是什麼你覺得我們政府這幾年減碳左右成果嗎還是遇到了很大的障礙跟瓶頸我現在對於委員這個問題不是非常的了解我會快速的來了解這些問題其實這兩張圖表希望部長可以好好了解一下也就是說這個"},{"start":12597.851,"end":12627.214,"text":"圖表裡面其實你可以看到國家溫室氣體的排放清澈其實你可以發現其實下降的有限1990到2021年的二氧化碳的排放趨勢沒有顯著的在增加不像說90年代增加的非常快速但相對來講在全世界開始要求要下降的時候我們並沒有做到碳排下降這件事情甚至還是微幅的增加部長遇到這樣的大的挑戰我們的做法是什麼"},{"start":12629.824,"end":12647.769,"text":"我想這個目標我們是非常清楚就是能夠節能減碳那因為這個如果排放的部分沒有減少這個節能減碳還是要非常的努力所以我們大概可以考慮是兩個方向一個就是讓排碳減少一個就是加強這個節能減碳"},{"start":12649.649,"end":12667.01,"text":"今天很簡單對不對所以你可以看到能源部門在這裡面其實扮演非常重要的一個角色所以今天其實有非常多的委員跟你討論國家的能源政策這一件事情那本席今天也是要討論這樣的事情但是我想喔大的方向我們就不用多談了談一下本席選區的事情"},{"start":12668.34,"end":12682.718,"text":"這個在民進黨政府領導的國家的能源轉型的政策的領導之下桃園其實是最大的受害者為什麼桃園是最大的受害者呢現在我覺得蠻遺憾的部長在業界的時候其實對核能的心態是相對開放的"},{"start":12683.078,"end":12703.464,"text":"但是近來擔任部長之後好像多了很多的拘束多了很多的包袱本席是認為非常可惜我是希望看到業界這樣子靈活的思維來改變公部門的邏輯這個希望部長可以好好努力為什麼我這樣說呢因為本席的選區桃園第一選區是火力發電的最大的受災戶"},{"start":12705.384,"end":12730.721,"text":"在大桃園周邊有十幾個火力發電的機組團團包圍當然桃園是產業重鎮桃園要用電這我們很清楚但是桃園的發電幾乎全部都是火力發電而且不只是有發電這其中很多的發電廠還都有擴大的計畫一個盧竹的海湖長生一個龜山的國光火力兩個電廠都在本席的選區偷偷摸摸的在進行擴建本席認為期期以為不可"},{"start":12731.261,"end":12746.856,"text":"為什麼不可能?倒也不是講說一定是要用核能嘛而是關鍵是我們剛剛講到這張圖表大家都希望二氧化碳的碳排能夠往下降而能源部門火力發電又剛剛好是這個二氧化碳碳排的大宗"},{"start":12747.617,"end":12769.137,"text":"如果我們的部長我們的經濟部希望未來走向淨零轉型但是卻放任火力電廠在各地繼續擴建不只是對區域的不公平跟不正義不只是有空污的危害其實對於國家總體淨零轉型其實它也是很大的一個障礙部長這樣子的狀況這樣子的矛盾經濟部現在有沒有什麼解決的方式"},{"start":12770.818,"end":12787.687,"text":"報告委員,我們對於這一步的話,原來的規劃就是以綠能權力來發展,那麼綠能才是符合建立這個目標的,那這個目前所規劃的這一部分是在"},{"start":12788.487,"end":12791.389,"text":"臺電會根據這個用電的這個預估啊然後去推估這個6年以後這個或者10年以後大概我們用電多少來"},{"start":12818.928,"end":12819.709,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12838.352,"end":12859.967,"text":"這個國家的重要的發展方針火力電廠的擴建大可不必本席竟表反對第二個是本席的選區不只有火力電廠還有桃園煉油廠您剛剛有講說石化燃料要慢慢慢慢的退場這個本席的選區這個煉油廠周邊的鄰里過去都有跟經濟部長座談交流的這個經驗大家都很關心以前大家講要牽廠要牽廠但我們知道你講要牽廠知識體大國家發展也困難"},{"start":12863.67,"end":12888.308,"text":"現在大家觀念願意改變希望用轉型的方式來取代遷廠這個轉型的計畫我們跟前任經濟部長已經做過政策對話我也希望新任的經濟部把煉油廠的轉型啊當成一個重要的發展方針符合減碳的趨勢場區利用的活化並且充分尊重地方的意見部長願不願意撥出一點點時間跟地方跟桃園市政府來做一些政策的溝通跟討論"},{"start":12889.686,"end":12912.451,"text":"我個人非常願意個人非常願意好不好那我們就後面來安排時間希望有更多的時間可以做深入的探討可以嗎是謝謝委員好期待這個經濟部在部長的領導之下可以走出一條新的道路謝謝加油謝謝委員謝謝牛許廷委員來部長請回座休息接下來請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":12919.15,"end":12920.737,"text":"謝謝主席,我請郭部長"},{"start":12930.775,"end":12954.634,"text":"部長好 剛才在回答前面委員的答覆的時候你有特別提到為了要迎接AI的這個大爆發所以如果電不夠的時候你是支持來蓋新的電廠那麼蓋新的電廠我想應該是包括核電廠吧因為以現有的政策還是說核電廠也會列入考量之一"},{"start":12956.636,"end":12972.727,"text":"長遠來說如果核電廠符合我們蓋電廠蓋核電廠的條件我認為這是不排除的一個選項所以你在講蓋新電廠裡面其實在你的腦子裡面沒有完全排除核電廠我個人是沒有"},{"start":12973.197,"end":12973.237,"text":"主席"},{"start":12996.727,"end":12997.107,"text":"目前臺灣的電是夠的"},{"start":13014.059,"end":13031.031,"text":"我們只是在擔心未來AI大爆發的時候它會突然間增加很多的電因為你剛剛講一個新電廠起碼要6年對不對所以你現在就要規劃嘛對不對你不能等到AI大爆發然後我們電不夠我們再來想電廠"},{"start":13032.992,"end":13054.638,"text":"我們現在正是在因應這兩三天的大的變化我們已經開始在調整自己的腳步了所以我們現在在做很多的simulation就是當這個臺灣的數據中心會增加多少當有一天臺灣導入超級電腦的時候我們需要非常大的電力的時候我們目前所規劃的電廠"},{"start":13056.878,"end":13065.589,"text":"到底是不是能夠因應這些需求報告委員我後來我講了說我們最快能夠滿足到2028年的這個規劃所以我們只能用太陽光能"},{"start":13074.571,"end":13076.012,"text":"所以你現在不是蓋新電廠,因為光電是遍地開花啊,對不對?"},{"start":13091.991,"end":13095.856,"text":"我時間有限因為你今天投出來應該算是一個很大的變化願意蓋新的電廠然後在新的電廠裡面其實你沒有預設立場我覺得這是務實的因為沒有錯"},{"start":13107.372,"end":13118.774,"text":"我們一定要未雨綢繆我們不能等到說這個產業需要的時候結果我們供電不急那另外我想請教就是談到這個AI產業其實現在呢臺灣現在非常非常的熱鬧臺北的這個AI產業圈非常熱鬧你應該知道包含輝達的這個黃仁勛先生還有超維的蘇之鋒都在臺北那我想請問一下你有見到他們嗎"},{"start":13136.319,"end":13136.619,"text":"沒有沒有沒有辦法確認"},{"start":13157.051,"end":13176.131,"text":"那我再用一些時間再回到這個電力的問題因為您來自業界我覺得來自業界最主要的就是你知道企業的真正的需求剛才講說我們希望發展綠電但是呢綠電也一定要控制成本對不對對於企業界來說 是的"},{"start":13179.054,"end":13187.567,"text":"就您一個CEO的角色來講那麼綠電的成本一度電多少錢是你認為企業界可以接受的?"},{"start":13195.528,"end":13205.581,"text":"6塊錢所以如果超過6塊錢的話業界也沒有辦法接受是的那我想請問一下這個可能你就要去盤整一下我們現在的綠電尤其現在這個離岸風電的第3期"},{"start":13210.067,"end":13220.79,"text":"現在面臨了一個狀況就是呢連我們的公股銀行都不願意進去連帶就是因為呢綠電的價格太高那麼因為現在傳出呢你剛講是6塊錢可是問題是離岸風電開出了第三期開出了6塊錢台積電都認為太貴因為他要大量的去買電那所以現在他的財務報告沒有辦法做出來所以現在連我們八大"},{"start":13238.234,"end":13240.835,"text":"在4月底的時候 包含當時的你的前任王美華部長 國發會還有財政部全部的拜託八大航庫能夠連帶給離岸風電的三期的業者可是他們不願意 因為他們覺得財務的風險太高"},{"start":13257.719,"end":13258.499,"text":"我們會在另外把綠能的部分做一個一個"},{"start":13284.824,"end":13295.021,"text":"關股關明的這個一個整合然後把這個綠能的部分綠電的來賣給這些中小的公司所以重點就是"},{"start":13296.078,"end":13322.678,"text":"在這個綠電的部分我覺得一定要控制成本而不是那個價格高到包含台積電都覺得受不了的時候那個時候我覺得其實臺灣99%的產業都受不了這一點非常重要好不好謝謝委員我們一定會讓這個電力讓所有的用戶有競爭力好謝謝謝謝你好謝謝王宏威委員也謝謝郭部長郭部長請回座接下來請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":13327.537,"end":13328.118,"text":"主席郭志輝部長"},{"start":13346.972,"end":13365.427,"text":"部長您好您來自產業界那有一些中小企業的聲音我想要直接跟部長您討論那在上個月我們在質詢經濟部前部長的時候我們也跟部長反映台灣的中小企業有163萬家占全國的98.9%我相信部長您一定非常清楚"},{"start":13366.328,"end":13366.368,"text":"主席"},{"start":13397.308,"end":13402.391,"text":"關於中小企業,因為我們現在想要幫中小企業跟部長您討論有沒有機會提高研發誘因,進一步評估放寬中小企業的研發租稅優惠門檻"},{"start":13425.2,"end":13427.183,"text":"有機會有機會跟財政部討論這件事情讓相關中小企業可以在有意願的情況下提高租稅優惠門檻"},{"start":13438.959,"end":13466.207,"text":"租稅的部分就是導入AI的應用我想這些獎勵是有的但是現行的獎勵會不會對某一些中小企業來說它的機制還是不夠積極的如果有這部分的話我想我們會重新再來討論那這個部分我們辦公室也會持續再跟經濟部討論因為台灣這麼高比例的中小企業這件事情我相信走在數位轉型的路上我們不希望整個台灣有一些隊友被辣掉了好嗎"},{"start":13466.647,"end":13467.187,"text":"大部分都是給小企業的"},{"start":13481.98,"end":13505.614,"text":"還有剛剛我提到關於人才培訓的部分如果有些員工願意去上課而且中小企業也願意支付某些費用去支持自己的員工提升專業能力而這樣子企業投入的員工訓練的成本是不是也可以作為租稅優惠這都需要找財政部討論那因為我們今天時間有限就沒有辦法做這麼積極的討論但是不是有機會請經濟部跟財政部我們一起來討論"},{"start":13506.594,"end":13530.465,"text":"是的謝謝委員根據我們這個同仁的這個表示啊就是這些費用是沒有上限沒有上限好所以相關的細節或是怎麼協助中小企業做相關的租稅檢體我們會再跟經濟部還有財政部討論謝謝部長我們來看下一個部長你知道嗎這個比較輕鬆一點部長今天壓力很大部長你知道嗎你是臺灣史上第一個在棒球危機上面有條目的經濟部長"},{"start":13532.213,"end":13532.253,"text":"主席"},{"start":13554.485,"end":13556.946,"text":"請問部長你是不是認為您的球隊的球員有球隊來幫忙保老保是理所當然的"},{"start":13568.643,"end":13572.026,"text":"國營事業如果不願意幫自己的球員加保勞健保甚至威脅可能不排除解散部長你怎麼看"},{"start":13584.679,"end":13584.839,"text":"報告委員應該不是這樣子"},{"start":13601.934,"end":13627.843,"text":"這個委員可能有點誤會他們是練習生所以不是正式的員工所以沒有辦法幫他們講這個是名義上這個細節我們會再跟部長討論之後更多臺電球員的狀況我們會再跟你討論可是之前我們也去跟勞動部問過囉勞動部也說不應該迴避雇主責任這件事情好那時間有限我們之後會再跟經濟部討論也希望部長您站在您原本就有球隊這個角度來協助這些球員好最後一個"},{"start":13628.703,"end":13636.109,"text":"部長在PTT上喔輕鬆一點我們來看一下轉經長郭志輝參與職棒跳票這件事情"},{"start":13637.527,"end":13659.088,"text":"這個事情是這樣子啊,就是我其實有很多的願望都沒有辦法達成好沒關係,那你現在是部長部長你現在是部長了,我們有沒有機會用經濟部的角度來支持國內的體育跟運動發展我昨天,因為我是以前是棒鞋的副理事長所以我想讓我的經濟部啊,我所屬的這個公司啊,都有球隊"},{"start":13661.124,"end":13662.425,"text":"我相信有更多的委員也會支持這樣的命題"},{"start":13690.988,"end":13691.428,"text":"主席,謝謝,麻煩請郭部長"},{"start":13720.477,"end":13722.779,"text":"身為30年的棒球迷,剛聽到你這邊一席話"},{"start":13725.134,"end":13748.693,"text":"未完成的夢想但是如果說能夠在這個公部門做事不管公司部門一起為我們所有不管是產業或者是運動行業來努力我想這是必要的尤其是我們現在都一直努力本期2020年的時候就開始要求倡議說能夠成立運動發展部最主要運動發展其實不只是體育項目還有產業"},{"start":13749.694,"end":13771.943,"text":"所以也希望說未來運動發展部如果說真的能夠成立的時候產業端的部分能夠跟經濟部多一些配合跟合作是的部長不過還是跟您就教AI的議題是非常火熱那本席早上有跟國科會這邊請教到底我們未來五年內短暫的時間因為之前你也有提過說可能2025到2028"},{"start":13775.935,"end":13799.271,"text":"2025到2028這個會是一個第一波的一個AI浪潮那台灣一定要跑在領先群對不對那我們預估到底我們的人才需求有多少我們的人才看我們展延到什麼樣的一個程度我想在這個LAM的部分其實這個非常專業這個一定是要透過國外的這個大的數據中心他們帶進來"},{"start":13800.714,"end":13822.899,"text":"那至於說在做應該是分兩塊啦,核心技術人才跟一般普遍行業人才對,一般普遍人才我立下了一個到117年為止希望替台灣訓練20萬20萬名,對不對,這在您的報告第三頁裡面有提到但這20萬名裡面是包括說民間一般以及學校大學端的養成"},{"start":13824.281,"end":13849.491,"text":"學校還有這個公司的學會那麼企業還有這個縣市政府所以總共在117年裡面希望能夠培養20萬名是能夠投入到民間一般行業都可以運用AI那相關的計畫呢因為本期今天早上請教國科會的主委喔國科會主委是答不出說需求有多少"},{"start":13850.211,"end":13872.811,"text":"因為我還沒有跟他討論這一部分我認為在經濟部我們有很大的中小企業在中小企業的部分我們要趕快提升他的競爭力導入AI的應用對中小企業來講是非常有好的幫助的"},{"start":13873.131,"end":13874.692,"text":"AI的部分我們大概就在發展在應用"},{"start":13901.647,"end":13902.148,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13920.37,"end":13920.39,"text":"部長："},{"start":13938.047,"end":13959.483,"text":"所以現在是做實事的部分因為你已經講到是說117年等於2028年要培養20萬名的人才嘛那這個不管是學校不管是民間培養不管是可能社會新鮮人我已經出了畢業但我都還可以獲得一些課程來去增進我AI知識然後來去投入這樣的產業所以看起來這是多部會喔"},{"start":13960.263,"end":13984.576,"text":"這不是只是單一部會當然當然經濟部、國科會、教育部、大學端會納進來所以這樣子的一個計畫由誰哪一個部會來做主導實施上面一定是經濟部走在前面規劃的話一定會跟其他的部門共同大家來什麼時候能夠把這完整的計畫讓國人知道因為我覺得這個目標非常好這也是本席今天早上在教育委員會問不到的答案"},{"start":13985.436,"end":14010.972,"text":"我又想說我們政府既然訂了一個目標我們一定知道說有多少需求那我們怎麼樣透過各部會的努力來達成這個需求所以您既然已經點出了一個20萬名本席也認為說這是一個可預期的目標但是各部會因為不太可能說你經濟部要下去跟大學端溝通不太可能經濟部要去跟這個其他這個單位負責的溝通所以"},{"start":14012.612,"end":14040.127,"text":"謝謝這個委員的實證這一部分因為賴總統有特別交代由他自己來這個協調這件事情所以之後是賴清德總統會自己來開會找經濟部教育部搭來對沒錯賴總統自己會開會對他要求我們來這個把這件事情做好所以不是他開會是他會找我們幾個這個這個主委或者是部長去協調溝通"},{"start":14042.386,"end":14059.104,"text":"那開會是我們自己會開會我的意思是說這個事情是他關注的是部長請容許本席提醒我國都還是內閣制的國家所以其實最高的行政首長是行政院長那總統負責的是外交國防兩岸對不起不用對不起啦這個"},{"start":14061.887,"end":14087.877,"text":"總統我們也為什麼會一直講是說國會希望總統能夠來國情報告其實因為他憲政體制的關係所以當然希望說總統他想做的事情尤其是從1996年之後民選了我們當然希望總統有權也有責所以不管你這邊剛講出來你會定期的跟總統來報告或者是說總統很關注我覺得這當然就是要負起相關的責任"},{"start":14089.192,"end":14090.993,"text":"一個半月內就可以完成一個半月內"},{"start":14106.124,"end":14106.564,"text":"接下來我們請王定宇委員發言"},{"start":14136.207,"end":14146.152,"text":"今天應該是你第一次業務報告嗎?"},{"start":14163.206,"end":14186.328,"text":"沒錯我今天帶了一個很長的卷軸我會增加你很長的份量請你見諒部長是從南部到北部打拼的從台灣的最南端那你在科技業在運動方面都有涉獵所以我今天只問一個主題這個AI現在很熱的是NVIDIA跟AMD他們人都在台灣"},{"start":14187.813,"end":14206.764,"text":"我請教第一個問題是NVIDIA跟AMD投資台灣的意義是什麼對我們在經濟上的意義在地緣政治上的意義因你在業界這麼久的話你的分析這代表的價值跟意義是什麼這兩家公司來投資台灣我想最重要的是我們台灣擁有這方面的這個資源"},{"start":14208.783,"end":14215.95,"text":"那天電電工會有分析說全球AI有四分之一是made in Taiwan"},{"start":14229.021,"end":14256.14,"text":"這個數據確不確實不只不只應該更高對應該更高因為現在在戰孤就是說目前AI全球產值可能會從1000億美金到2030年會達到一兆將近6000億美金會成長16倍所以NVIDIA也好AMD也好如果他們選擇投資台灣不管做企業總部或做什麼的對台灣來講是一個肯定更是一門大生意那"},{"start":14258.041,"end":14279.609,"text":"就部長的了解現在NVIDIA跟AMD他們在台灣的投資是定案了只是在選址還是在考慮中基本上我所了解的程度是這樣都在考慮中還沒有確定所以我們應該要提供更多的誘因讓他落腳在我們這裡"},{"start":14280.765,"end":14296.675,"text":"對,因為我昨天有看到郭部長有表達說你會去等於是說服他們投資台灣,因為這也是經濟部長的工作,因為在經濟上的話他來的話不管是產值、聚落或者各方面技術的提升這是第一個價值"},{"start":14297.967,"end":14323.394,"text":"第二個價值是在地緣政治上像黃仁勳講臺灣是值得投資的地方臺灣是安全的地方其實這對國際的投資者不管是資金或者是不管是這個直接投資或經濟投資都是很重要的意義跟價值所以部長目前為止有沒有跟他們兩位接觸到我有接觸到兩個都有了所以你認為落腳臺灣的機會大還是小"},{"start":14326.82,"end":14345.493,"text":"MVDA來講的話我想從他前幾天的表現一旦一直在Promote臺灣我認為他不能夜市吃一吃到時候不投資也不好幹他喜歡吃夜市應該就是會對我們臺灣有很好他在那天所秀的那個影片其實最後那一段"},{"start":14346.334,"end":14367.495,"text":"通通是在介紹台灣他把所有的廠商另外列出17家大學都跟台灣有關係他都感謝台灣因為台灣能夠提供他這個資源我想所有的投資就是不管他的這個情懷怎樣子這個心理距離是非常重要的我現在接下來要進入我的政體了我今天還我剛才打電話給黃偉哲市長"},{"start":14369.477,"end":14390.514,"text":"所以我身上還背一個黃偉哲市長台南是值得投資的地方我有準備台南的優點列了一個這麼長的卷帳我剛才看到有其他委員有寫那個太短了我們台南優點太多了曾文森市長我們台南尤其沙崙這邊的水跟電他一手在那邊不管是盤點綠推辦那時候做了很多事情所以"},{"start":14391.673,"end":14409.233,"text":"當然作為一個部長你左眼點是全台灣但是你對科技業的熟悉你來自於南台灣我們希望這個可以落腳在南台灣特別是台南那台南有哪些利基可以吸引黃仁勳我們第一個我來講的是有關"},{"start":14411.255,"end":14426.454,"text":"歸人目前沙崙我們的我們經濟部也好科技部在那邊都有琢磨很多沙崙周邊光陽明交大就有10公頃的閒置土地成大也有10公頃的閒置土地距離高鐵只有3分鐘"},{"start":14427.575,"end":14454.282,"text":"最高點就三分鐘未來臺南捷運的終點站也在那個地方目前有兩條高速公路一條快速道路所以這一個旁邊還有200多公頃臺唐可以開發的閒置的國有土地所以第一個優點我們那邊地準備好了第二個呢水電這個基礎建設無虞這個就曾文森這個次長當時做的事情你看我們"},{"start":14455.242,"end":14483.956,"text":"台灣的水庫最多在我們台南我們光這三座水庫就有66800萬噸的儲水另外我們還有再生水廠總共有四座再生水可以提供使用那另外電的部分我們海淡廠也做了電的部分我們目前已經在2024年突破4GW也就是說綠電也很內行很多高科技公司必須再生能源"},{"start":14484.696,"end":14508.355,"text":"所以臺南的綠電充足臺南的水電基礎設施沒有問題交通沒有問題那第三個南科是全球最大的三奈米五奈米基地就在這個地方南科然後呢第四個呢我們旁邊有陽明交大成大我們的這方面的人才庫培養充足這第四個第五個呢"},{"start":14509.156,"end":14534.726,"text":"中研院、工研院、國研院、量子所等等等等包含成大醫院沙崙園區都在高鐵三分鐘的圈子裡面再加上中央政府我相信部長會支持過去這是國家重要政策黃偉哲特別請我帶來這句就是臺南市會全力配合中央我們希望能夠讓他落腳在我們那邊第7個剛才講交通都完備了那"},{"start":14536.246,"end":14564.681,"text":"最後最後來講一個就是我們雙語學校一些基礎設施都完成以外我們那邊東西很好吃喜歡吃夜市的人會特別喜歡台南台南的東西最好吃那加上黃南勳跟蘇之鋒他們跟羅家都是我們台南人以上這10點還寫不完啦我這卷軸待會送給部長我是不是最後可以拜託部長NVIDIA跟AMD在可以的範圍內能不能鼓勵他們善用"},{"start":14566.102,"end":14578.119,"text":"這個從蔡總統到賴清德總統都跟大南方計畫的旗艦就是在臺南歸人沙崙能不能鼓勵他們往這邊來落腳部長我剛才念完了現在換你回應"},{"start":14580.066,"end":14602.772,"text":"謝謝委員,我想這個花若盛開,蝴蝶自然,心理距離比較短,應該我想我若是他,心理距離這麼短,應該會有選擇心理距離好像是你博士論文有寫的東西對,心理距離是我博士論文的東西我印象心理距離是你博士論文的東西我剛才講的優點都是真的"},{"start":14604.827,"end":14614.425,"text":"都是假的啦你不能因為你高雄人這樣子你剛剛那個水庫三個水庫留兩個水庫的水是從我們高雄來的沒關係那個水管有通我們都可以接過來所以"},{"start":14616.12,"end":14637.572,"text":"加一的話在我們的北邊所以你三個選部的選一個是加一兩個是高雄部長不要被這兩位一個高雄一個加一的影響臺南是首選AMD跟NVIDIA如果能夠來臺南我們地方到中央一定鼎力配合好啦你時間到了啦你一個臺南的比不過我們經濟委員會有四個高雄的你現在是在這裡嗆聲"},{"start":14642.954,"end":14659.381,"text":"謝謝王定宇委員 接下來我們請蔡易宇委員發言好 謝謝趙薇 那我們是不是有請我們郭部長來請郭部長"},{"start":14670.214,"end":14689.861,"text":"部長好部長我剛剛那個王委員講好多啦可是我相信在你的心目中啦因為你對嘉義很熟啦所以我不用講那麼多業勢啦土地跟水啦我們嘉義的優勢就是有一個郭部長我們就夠了對不對謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":14694.052,"end":14718.225,"text":"我們部長都一家一,民雄跟鹿草都有我想要跟部長事實上也是聊一下就是說我們從最近的新聞可以看到整個半導體的產業大概是在台灣蓬勃發展我們大家看到了從黃仁訊的NVIDIA到整個"},{"start":14721.047,"end":14741.403,"text":"臺積電把整個半導體護國神山而且是越來越強把臺灣整個打到國際去但是我們在注重臺積電的先進製程的時候我們還是回過頭會去對於另外半導體除了先進製程還有所謂成熟製程"},{"start":14741.883,"end":14770.426,"text":"那成熟製程有包括包括車用晶片包括我們現在傳統的一些一些比較還不到AI領域但是他也是很重要也是很重要但是可以看出說在這一個成熟製程的這一個市場上中國非常的積極他最近又通過了他要用他要投資中國這邊"},{"start":14772.346,"end":14799.474,"text":"他最近又說他要再投資加碼投資整個成熟製程的一個這個投資的規格高達了這個3440億所以中國這樣的一個加碼投資那我們台灣的因應知道了我們成熟的製程的這個業者來講其實都還是具有競爭力中國現在成熟製程大概都是在40奈米"},{"start":14801.418,"end":14814.479,"text":"臺灣現在成熟都在20到28奈米這個其實在這個generation上面還是有一些區隔那中國的40奈米影響的其實只有他自己"},{"start":14815.486,"end":14815.566,"text":"臺積電10奈米"},{"start":14833.63,"end":14839.732,"text":"所以部長就是說這一塊因為成熟製程我們知道說在疫情期間因為缺少車用晶片所以你看它已經說晶片現在已經變成火車頭產業了"},{"start":14858.078,"end":14876.696,"text":"因為沒有晶片,所以後來整個汽車製造業全部大遲延,全部沒辦法購車,就是少了車用晶片。但是我們在成熟製程的這一塊,如果中國這樣不斷的加碼投資,然後他們事實上到最後就會變成說低價。"},{"start":14877.517,"end":14899.462,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":14899.562,"end":14916.489,"text":"因為我跳出來說會針對中國的這種攻擊性投資他們已經開始在focus而且甚至都要去做中國的這樣的相關持有製程的追蹤那會之後會不會演變成美國對中國的貿易戰不知道但是我們台灣怎麼因應這一塊"},{"start":14917.909,"end":14935.6,"text":"跟委員報告這個我想成熟的製程基本上還是會在商業上面運轉的時候會考慮他的良率那中國我想在這個成熟製程他目前的良率還沒有那麼好所以短暫的這一兩年我們還看不出對台灣的廠商有什麼太大的威脅"},{"start":14936.84,"end":14962.371,"text":"但是在未來當它良率上來了以後可能就會有一些業績不過這一部分台灣的廠商自己都非常清楚所以他們一定會往這個更先進的製程去移動他們會往先進的製程移動那對我們來講我想我們也會這個讓台灣的這個IC設計業者就是說大家盡量朝這個先進製程大家去努力"},{"start":14964.012,"end":14984.054,"text":"臺灣大部分這些晶片業者都是在做這個代工的部分我們所謂代工是在替他們製造替這個業者製造那對我們來講我其實對這一部分完全不擔心說中國會有來超越臺灣的部分因為他的良率還是一直沒有做很好"},{"start":14984.454,"end":15000.694,"text":"好那所以我想這一塊是我們台灣的優勢我們經濟部是有這樣的義務應該要好好的去守護整個這樣的一個產業那好那就講到了剛才部長說的代工嘛台灣就是強在這個代工的整個甚至我們的代工也逐步發展"},{"start":15001.235,"end":15019.642,"text":"那在代工的這個同時我們能不能在半導體整個產業在蓬勃發展的時候我們台灣對於所謂半導體的材料或者是相關的一些設備我們能不能進一步的來推動國產化有在我們經濟部的計畫裡面我們會在這個未來的這個4年對設備還有材料我們希望有一些這個"},{"start":15029.4,"end":15052.818,"text":"福島跟這些獎勵讓台灣的國產化可以提高就現階段而言台灣的這一塊的國產化是不高的這是整個材料尤其是材料我們就半導體的材料還是進口居多這中間包括從日本進口來就不少這中間當然有涉及到說整個日本他們對於材料的純度是比"},{"start":15054.259,"end":15059.606,"text":"臺灣好所以臺灣的相關的設備業者要怎麼迎頭趕上這個也要由經濟部這邊來來發揮是謝謝謝謝這個委員指教好那所以講到的這個設備嗎那我還是要進一步的跟部長說因為在"},{"start":15069.957,"end":15094.739,"text":"我們嘉義的入草這個馬籌後的一個產業園區我們目前有規劃45公頃這個是在那個改組前由鄭文燦前副院長他一手去規劃他們希望在馬籌後這邊拉出45公頃來作為半導體的材料以及設備的一個供應鏈把設備材料供應鏈可以放在馬籌後"},{"start":15095.599,"end":15119.191,"text":"那我想要請教部長說,這個計畫不會因為內閣改組改變吧?應該沒有,這個會持續進行中。持續進行嘛,那如果按照原先的一個規劃是在年底就要開始招商,那保定這部分在招商的整個的時程以及你們的信心度現在是如何的?"},{"start":15119.711,"end":15142.381,"text":"現在進行中已經開始在規劃那馬上在這個年底就要招商嘛要開招商說明會要開招商說明會那我們希望說這一塊可以加速招商是阿剛也要去說說還是延續啦就是包括現在黃仁勳所說的他希望在台灣有設置這一個研發的一個基地嘛"},{"start":15143.261,"end":15164.637,"text":"這個研發基地我想事實上嘉義嘉義黃仁勳我們黃仁勳會不會考慮嘉義我們不知道但是有一個人他會考慮嘉義有一個人我補充我不是跟你說你你這樣太大了梁建厚梁建厚是我們嘉義族旗人所以他過去"},{"start":15165.518,"end":15183.033,"text":"我們這個梁先生過去真的有考慮在嘉義要投資要設廠那在當時我就我們翁章良縣長給我的資訊在當時他要考慮在嘉義要設廠但是他們卻對於嘉義的工業區的土地是不足的"},{"start":15183.974,"end":15212.435,"text":"所以以那順座最豪氣的投資沒有成型所以表示說我們嘉義勒因為如果以整個現在整個AI產業是要半導體產業的一個布局從高雄台南甚至未來在嘉義那嘉義台積電已經有現階段就有兩廠的COAS的一個封裝廠那未來還會有所謂材料跟設備的一個產業的一個園區裡面出來所以我們嘉義勒事實上就整個AI產業的布局咱嘉義是整個"},{"start":15216.378,"end":15226.489,"text":"加南高是一個整體的一個園區,我們加以可能在工業區的土地不足,所以部長這部分你可以來協助我們,是不是要交給我們來推動社區?"},{"start":15231.033,"end":15231.053,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":15255.06,"end":15255.08,"text":"吳麗華委員"},{"start":15282.455,"end":15292.482,"text":"部長好委員好我看到好多委員今天都在比來自哪裡那我跟您自我介紹我屏東我驕傲我跟您一樣來自屏東"},{"start":15294.483,"end":15315.495,"text":"謝謝在這裡其實大家對您的印象就是您來自業界所以對您期許就是您一定可以做一個接地氣的部長特別是您來自偏鄉也做過基層的工作所以我想這也是賴總統卓院長對您的一個期許那我就來問比較接地氣的問題"},{"start":15317.436,"end":15345.03,"text":"我們看到今年就是有做一個BBC的全球市警就是三分之一的人類是高度缺水那另外呢今年的世界水資源日聯合國也提出一個市警就是全球有四分之一的人是沒有乾淨的飲水也因此呢在財經新聞我們看到水資源的概念股呢他是一個熱門股那您來自業界水有多麼珍貴"},{"start":15345.99,"end":15346.43,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15362.601,"end":15382.957,"text":"用水的政策我想大家還是雖然台灣是這個市面環海然後也經常下雨我認為用水還是大家要節省這個水現在因為這個氣候變遷的關係那用水要節省當然要有一些手段對不對是"},{"start":15385.513,"end":15406.496,"text":"對阿 要不然大家為什麼要截水 對不對那我這樣子問齁 就是我們原住民 我是原住民選出來的立法委員我們原住民經常會來跟我陳情阿 就是關於水之水量的保護區 水資源回饋金的問題那我看到經濟部水利署公告 全國"},{"start":15407.757,"end":15436.696,"text":"有114處是化射保護區那原鄉的部分呢有59處所以這個佔比大概是52%如果去用面積來算佔比的話那其實佔比是更大的那我以舉一個例子來講像是高雄有一個納瑪下區他們曾經全鄉的民意代表來跟我澄清就是有關他們的水資源回饋金的分配我請教部長"},{"start":15437.697,"end":15451.962,"text":"如果說他水資源回饋金他的分配比是3%但是他的隔壁箱下游箱假設是假先他的分配比是14.14%你覺得你的感受是什麼"},{"start":15456.599,"end":15457.32,"text":"這是依照人口跟面積的影響"},{"start":15469.477,"end":15492.479,"text":"那但是呢他們會不理解就是為什麼會差距這麼高所以我要特別在您的面前謝謝水利署因為水利署呢這三年多其實他們很盡心盡力的來協助納馬下區的一個困擾雖然還沒有結果但是很有進展我在這邊要特別謝謝水利署那另外我舉一個例子北區好了"},{"start":15493.2,"end":15516.338,"text":"全國原鄉水源保護區最大的面積的就是復興區桃園的復興區那他們曾經也來跟我澄清他們的訴求是什麼呢第一他們希望說他們分配到的水資源回饋金希望能夠去免檢據申辦那個錢也不多還要檢據來申請所以這個部分已經解決了因為可以原理"},{"start":15517.139,"end":15531.704,"text":"北水特局無來他們已經處理了處理好那第二個訴求就是說能不能夠把回饋金的分配公式調整一下因為目前的公式是面積跟人口那他們以為這樣子調整就可以解決這個問題那第三個他們是說那就來治本"},{"start":15535.285,"end":15555.638,"text":"那我們就把自來水法裡面的這個水資源回饋金的比例已經訂定20年他的法源是5%到15%可是20年來從增訂這個法都一直維持在5%好那我想這個都是解方那我自己也要想辦法所以呢我也有提案修法像這個自來水法的12條之2我們就去把"},{"start":15557.679,"end":15557.699,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":15582.352,"end":15593.53,"text":"我剛剛講了這麼多您來自業界這20年水資源的珍稀程度不可同日而語啊那您覺得我們該不該去做修法"},{"start":15594.72,"end":15619.917,"text":"我想我支持這個委員您的這個看法是那我也感同身受是那但是呢這個具體的內容我不是那麼瞭解是那是不是容我回去跟我的同仁我們大家再研究以後好那我是希望說至少把它試算出來然後研究一下然後來報告一下各位的態度好不好部長您的態度至少目前是肯定的是支持的嘛對不對是謝謝"},{"start":15620.997,"end":15621.117,"text":"主席"},{"start":15638.866,"end":15641.029,"text":"我們的台電說電纜地下化比例已經高達44.3%高於日韓了但是我知道的是原鄉也會來跟我抱怨啊我們也要地下電纜化你看一下這個照片有沒有"},{"start":15653.843,"end":15678.903,"text":"有的部落裡面這個像話嗎對 但是我好像都等不到勒我就不曉得說這個母樹到底是來自於全台哪一些區域啊我們原鄉也很想因為我跟您報告部長我接到好幾個案例都是電線有的不是110伏特 220伏特有的時候是裸露有的時候是電線掉下來到水溝去洗個手"},{"start":15679.343,"end":15699.889,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":15699.929,"end":15700.389,"text":"臺電跟水利署"},{"start":15730.562,"end":15730.902,"text":"經濟部的郭部長"},{"start":15758.795,"end":15771.946,"text":"部長你好委員好這個看你今天這個一個早上下來好像有刃有餘了齁這個我問你幾個問題簡短的問題第一個原來媒體報導說你身價超過100億有嗎我不知道他從哪裡得到我有身價100億你自己講有沒有嗎沒有"},{"start":15788.999,"end":15815.29,"text":"有比較漏氣耶 大家幫你捧很高 大家對你期待很高你要說一百億 我覺得問題就是 但是你不管多少啦齁 即便沒有一百億 幾十億都有啦 一定有嘛 對不對有這麼有錢 你當經濟部長 你沒想過 我們一般的勞工 三分之二領不到平均工資"},{"start":15816.707,"end":15816.847,"text":"資本家．"},{"start":15843.84,"end":15862.576,"text":"我是有出資本經營公司的那就資本家嘛我們台灣GDP賺的錢都給你們賺走了基層的員工拿43%你們拿很多很多錢啦所以我就問你一個問題你當經濟部長怎麼樣讓企業幫助員工加薪告訴我"},{"start":15864.52,"end":15884.771,"text":"這個對我來講不是什麼太難的問題跟委員報告我只要讓我所有的企業所做的工作是加值的工作在他的人工的成本相對比例之下那一定是可以給員工加薪的不是你現在當經濟部長了嘛等於是所有董事長的董事長"},{"start":15886.01,"end":15911.912,"text":"你管企業基本上你應該有辦法請你告訴我們有什麼辦法讓他們對員工相信我最快的方法就是我的境內關外的這個做法境內關外對我境內關外的做法就是利用一些這個稅制然後邀請國外在那裡免稅是不是對用免稅的方法然後擴大我的內需市場那你跟財政部談過沒有請問"},{"start":15913.598,"end":15937.347,"text":"我們先提出來這樣的一個想法境內關外那就是過去我們在馬英九時代執政的時候所談到的經濟示範區這個概念境內關外自由流動零關稅零這個障礙對吧不完全一樣"},{"start":15940.819,"end":15956.409,"text":"這個我再問你一個具體的我提案了對中小企業150萬家他給員工加薪我們給他乘以現在是130乘以兩倍200%的費用你同意嗎"},{"start":15957.762,"end":15981.915,"text":"我盡量來讓這個所有的這個薪資啊都能夠提升到這個委員剛才所指導的這樣的一個方向境內管外的意思是要每一個地區都要劃境內管外喔港口旁邊機場旁邊都要劃是這個意思喔我們的境內管外是對某一些業者來講給他一些virtual的虛擬的virtual不是一個area不是這樣子"},{"start":15982.735,"end":16009.45,"text":"是一個虛擬的他在他原來的地方從事所謂價值是內關外可以加薪今天一個很重要的事情第二個請問你有沒有跟黃榮鑫見過面有什麼時候前幾天吃飯的時候怎麼沒有找你吃飯找我沒有沒有我大概因為在減肥所以不吃這個宵夜你不喜歡吃台灣的夜市是吧"},{"start":16010.509,"end":16028.804,"text":"我喜歡台灣夜市但是不喜歡跟大家一起逛夜市所以所以他逛夜市我們也邀請你嘛我不是他的業者所以他不會邀請我我希望你我們對一般對你期待是高的"},{"start":16029.537,"end":16049.887,"text":"可是我感覺你接了部長這段時間你才變4月18號你說核電如果需要研議要全民共事這句話還有效嗎一樣好那我們請看下一頁現在最新的一個民調PACE"},{"start":16051.348,"end":16068.218,"text":"清潔人員公眾態度83%的臺灣人支持民調支持核電2018年以核養綠就是我核電來養我的綠電等到成熟了我核電再退"},{"start":16069.696,"end":16091.285,"text":"這個通過了這就是全民共識啊結果你在五天以前河山廠你說要用當作備用電力啊全世界沒有一個經濟部長或者一個大專家說河電居然是備用備援的UBA"},{"start":16093.064,"end":16106.954,"text":"河電當然是機載用電啊怎麼會是備用呢怎麼你越來越縮起來啊原來的說全民有公司我就用河電後來一直退啊變成我的感覺啊部長你原來是生意人"},{"start":16107.935,"end":16131.63,"text":"大家因為知道你頭腦清楚和賺錢腦筋清楚大家對你期待很高有個期待希望你不要變成政客但是你越來越像政客這個完全就是跟民進黨的廢核家人走了你現在不敢談核電了這個你不敢談核電了居然說AI用電量很高"},{"start":16133.231,"end":16158.099,"text":"這時候你開始用光電難道把台灣全部都蓋滿這個光電板你說用光電你就是不談到核電跟委員報告這個委員可能有點誤會啦這個核能不能不是說不能夠當基載而是我在講說核能當然是基載阿全世界都是基載阿對啊怎麼備用呢怎麼到底在那邊備用呢備用是因為我將它它因為受我們現在的法令的規定它必須要降載"},{"start":16158.999,"end":16162.601,"text":"檢查完以後再上來上來的時候我認為這個上來會不會上來這個我們不能夠把它當成一定要做的機長工作"},{"start":16175.848,"end":16185.896,"text":"你要蓋個新的電廠要6年時間對吧對好要6年時間那就是天然氣的又是有CO2全世界是簡單不淨核阿那現在有的核三廠我已經替你法律我都列好了"},{"start":16192.12,"end":16196.161,"text":"報告委員這個部分是這樣子說如果沒有把這個法解掉的話我會這樣子做"},{"start":16221.018,"end":16221.998,"text":"我希望做你郭智暉"},{"start":16245.615,"end":16271.847,"text":"你不要做民進黨的郭志輝,要做中華民國經濟部長的郭志輝,可以嗎?謝謝委員指導,謝謝要有骨氣啦,不要把這政治軟下去啦,謝謝謝謝,來,部長請回座休息好,接下來我們請李博義,李博義委員不在,我們請賴會員委員發言好,謝謝主席,有請中華民國經濟部長郭志輝來,請郭部長"},{"start":16279.673,"end":16307.4,"text":"部長午安午安是我想這個無庸置疑你是中華民國的經濟部長郭志輝是對好那部長我想針對的就是本土化的一個電池產業是穩定電源的能量的一個關鍵來跟你做今天的一個執行的一個探討我們知道就是賴總統在這個淨零轉型的五大策略裡頭"},{"start":16308.32,"end":16308.7,"text":"主席"},{"start":16326.727,"end":16349.081,"text":"全世界最大咖的這個晶片的科技的一個大咖都在我們臺灣聚集他們當然就是說不管是我們的那個揮打的黃神興還是我們超維的那個尼薩蘇還是英格爾的季辛格其實他們來到這裡為了搶曝光以外我想他們真正的在臺灣的這一個電腦展是為了鞏固臺灣供應的這一個廠商的一個關係"},{"start":16355.145,"end":16355.225,"text":"主席"},{"start":16385.986,"end":16392.071,"text":"臺灣的電池在中國搶佔全球市場 排擠臺灣電池的產業經濟的侵略裡部長你有沒有一個思維 考慮在我們國安本土化去中化的一個穩定的儲能的趨勢是一個趨勢 那是勢在必行"},{"start":16413.667,"end":16441.497,"text":"是的 如委員所指教的我想這個儲能因為我們也有用一些這個光電用一些這個風電所以儲能相對對我們來講做智慧調整是非常重要的一個部分所以我們不一定要靠這個中國的這個電池這個電池產業我想這個大家都清楚了他的這個安全性在其他的方面不見得是那麼穩健"},{"start":16442.777,"end":16461.677,"text":"所以我們必須要有自己的這個所以部長你已經看到了其實你也實際在產業界裡頭你做到了很好的一個那個使用者體驗你知道是中國的電池其實基本上他並不是那麼安全那就是說在整個全世界這個器中化的一個經濟正在就是"},{"start":16462.077,"end":16462.117,"text":"臺灣的一個"},{"start":16492.02,"end":16492.22,"text":"主席"},{"start":16512.176,"end":16512.196,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":16534.514,"end":16536.777,"text":"臺電、中華電、中鋼、中船用最多的電池,強力推動政策性用國產電池的政策"},{"start":16551.003,"end":16566.037,"text":"謝謝委員指教這部分我想我們必須要回去再討論一下這樣子的做法有沒有違反WTO的這個規範那如果沒有的話我覺得應該是可以考慮從這方面來講"},{"start":16567.739,"end":16585.631,"text":"在2022年我們的國家電池隊就是已經是先是成立了我想這些問題應該在之前的那個就是我們的行政院的團隊已經考慮的夠周全了如果就是說他在能源局他在就是在整個就是"},{"start":16586.511,"end":16588.833,"text":"報告委員,我想一個企業不管他是做哪一方面的這個事業,他應該要有自己的競爭力"},{"start":16609.213,"end":16634.445,"text":"如果是靠國家補助我覺得他還是走不出去所以我前面已經鋪陳了這麼久我就說在整個去中化裡頭其實我們的國內電池已經被中國的一個那個補貼就是把它打得東倒西歪了如果現在只剩下一家你還不來救他的話那怎麼辦呢我們的電池必須要所有養障就是進口的這個是不對的"},{"start":16636.055,"end":16636.475,"text":"我們會回去討論"},{"start":16659.062,"end":16659.482,"text":"接下來請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":16697.423,"end":16712.671,"text":"主席有請部長來請郭部長部長好我曾經擔任過總統府副秘書長"},{"start":16714.493,"end":16737.166,"text":"當時馬英九總統許多重要的政策我是負責追蹤的我還記得馬總統那時候跟我談到一件事情就是蔡英文總統講2025非核家園他曾經對我做了四大預言我來請教部長這四大預言有沒有成真他的第一個預言是再生能源2025%絕對跳票請問馬英九的預言成真了嗎"},{"start":16753.043,"end":16765.547,"text":"因為各種變數關係啦,現在只能做到...你只要跟我講這議員陳真了嗎?我們的2025再生能源能到20%嗎?只要跟我講到不到的了?部長你剛剛這個問題回答了25秒欸到了的了嗎?2025 20%做的到嗎?"},{"start":16773.428,"end":16779.751,"text":"應該是做不到就是做不到那請問馬總統的預言成真了嗎?跳票了沒?2025跳票了沒?不會第一個問題就五分鐘發呆結束吧?部長我很尊敬你但是我希望你回答問題有點擔當一點連這麼簡單的問題你已經耗了一分半了"},{"start":16796.653,"end":16825.035,"text":"您的問題我想我很很簡單嗎?如果說你用這樣的一個一個要我急大事的我就告訴你是跳票謝謝一分半後你終於講那我想請問賴清德總統說2030年他的再生能源他要打多少?30%啦我告訴你啦你就一個經濟部部長你很負責任告訴我做得到嗎?2030年你可以打包票做得到嗎?"},{"start":16826.551,"end":16852.925,"text":"你做得到嗎?不是努力的問題,這是總統的目標欸總統的目標我們當然要努力去做做不做得到?你願意打包票嗎?這個不是我一個人可以做的事你很努力啦,但是你也不敢打包票啦你不敢打包票,當然你不敢打包票啊你知道馬總統卸任的時候再生能源大概是5%經過8年之後成長到現在再生能源比重多少?"},{"start":16855.863,"end":16880.314,"text":"9%部長你都跟我講不會停電我沒有一個問題你答得出來你根本不會確定沒有一個問題答得出來我到現在為止沒有一個問題你答得出來現在是多少請問部長現在是多少占比多少9.6你8年成長大概不到5%你跟我講說接下來6年你要再增加從9.6變成30%成長20%"},{"start":16884.69,"end":16890.975,"text":"部長,你覺得這個票會不會是巴拉票啊?成為巴拉票的機率高不高啊?我們會重新去檢討這一個結構。第二個馬總統的預言,大幅依賴火力,飛河之後,然後也違反世界減碳的趨勢,這個預言成真了沒有?"},{"start":16913.235,"end":16933.829,"text":"這個是個過程啦 從低碳到零碳當然是一個 這個預言成真了沒有 現在是不是大幅預帶火力 是不是啊我們現在是 是嘛 所以馬總統第二個預言也成真了嘛 很佩服他可以預言成真 謝謝部長終於願意肯定 第三個當然齁 可能就有得講了 電價必漲請問馬總統八年你知道電價漲大概多少嗎 23啦"},{"start":16941.46,"end":16949.075,"text":"蔡英文8年長多少?33啦哪一個比較高?33-23高是數學問題經濟部長應該答得出來"},{"start":16952.678,"end":16980.474,"text":"這個裡面當然有很多不可預期的因素了你不要講你統統有不可預期因素我只跟你講絕對數字23%跟33%哪一個高數學當然是33%高阿那很好阿謝謝你阿第三個議員也成真阿那我想請教部長你敢不敢像蔡英文一樣大聲的告訴大家10年不大漲電價你敢不敢你願不願意我科學的態度是不願意對非常好謝謝部長我現在開始尊敬你你用科學態度沒有問題"},{"start":16981.658,"end":16993.733,"text":"做不到的事情不要亂承諾部長就展現一個非常好的一個點範第4個我跟你就有點意見不同你說電力不缺馬總統說電力必缺我會發現原因在哪裡"},{"start":16994.878,"end":17021.915,"text":"有一個 有一個人齁 年薪千萬 他覺得他不缺錢就覺得他很缺錢 有可能嘛 對不對 年薪千萬覺得很缺錢嘛 可能嘛但有的年薪百萬覺得不缺錢嘛 對不對缺不缺是主觀感受問題 但我要問的是民眾觀感的停電問題 想請教您 部長我們現在停電的狀況怎麼樣 我問你齁 過去16年 20年好了超過百萬戶以上的大停電 發生過幾次"},{"start":17025.51,"end":17029.593,"text":"20年過去20年發生過幾次百萬戶以上停電所以請說我告訴你是不會公布資料發生百萬戶以上的大停電你沒統計有啦我在馬政府時候就看過資料啦這20年包括這16年馬政府到蔡英文政府甚至陳水扁政府就4次"},{"start":17051.24,"end":17075.21,"text":"沒錯吧我數字有沒有錯815過來是4次就4次嘛全部發生在誰任內呃但是跟委員報告齁那幾次的停電都是在白天太陽光你不要跟我講白天晚上阿我只問是幾次4次你講完誰任內嘛全部參議員任內嘛對啦你們不缺電啦但你們大停電特別多啦最後一個數字講完就結束啦"},{"start":17076.903,"end":17096.875,"text":"2016年我們每戶每人每年每戶每戶每年的停電分鐘數請問部長是多少我直接告訴你你又答不出來我知道16分鐘你知道2022年加上我們的所謂的大停電號就是所謂303大停電號每戶每年的停電時間是多少你知道嗎106分鐘啦你這台電數字喔"},{"start":17103.083,"end":17129.789,"text":"沒錯吧我沒講錯吧謝謝你哈106是16分鐘多少倍6倍6倍我跟你講連第四個不缺電的預言他都中了啦所以部長我要告訴您哈您之前主張你願意對於核能採取所謂正面態度這是正確的差一政府四個票票馬政府四個預言都達到以上謝謝"},{"start":17133.765,"end":17146.454,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員的發言來部長請回座休息我想還是要尊重一下主席的才事啦來接下來我們請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":17153.207,"end":17173.424,"text":"請問您是來這裡吵架的嗎?來請羅廷偉委員發言你憑什麼在事後在說我?你憑什麼?做人公道一點不要雙標不要因為我問到重點你怕了就開始用這種方式來做"},{"start":17175.217,"end":17200.014,"text":"請尊重主席的職權如果您有病的話就請吃藥請看醫生來請羅丁惠委員發言有病真的要看醫生來請羅丁惠委員發言好謝謝主席有請部長以及水利署署長來請賴署長"},{"start":17207.199,"end":17231.016,"text":"部長好 委員好部長第一次跟您談話那看完了這一個經濟部的業務報告半導體 AI 全球佈局 供電穩定還有中小型的低碳數位雙軸轉型那我關心的是水環境那過往我們在這個前瞻預算有相關的水環境的一些建設"},{"start":17232.097,"end":17254.506,"text":"那我在這個上任的初期2月1號以後很積極的想要去了解未來的還有沒有前瞻預算以及會不會編列一些預算對於台中市的水環境給予我們更多的一些建設那我有去關心那我想先問一下部長你有來過台中嗎很少很少台中有柳川綠川有聽過嗎"},{"start":17256.679,"end":17280.672,"text":"聽過柳川綠川其實在林佳龍市長任內盧秀燕市長任內不斷的努力做了一期二期甚至柳川有做到三期那目前我們在做第四期的一個延伸有爭取相關的一個計畫可惜應該是台中市政府的計畫內容沒有寫得很好然後被打槍這個當然不能夠怪經濟部也不能怪水利署"},{"start":17281.252,"end":17295.803,"text":"但是後續我在追蹤這個問題的過程當中發現水利署告訴我是沒有預算需要再辨列不知道部長對於水環境的建設未來可不可以展現出態度也願意一起來重視呢?"},{"start":17297.571,"end":17323.686,"text":"我想我們對各市提出來的這些需求我想我們都會重視是謝謝部長但是就是因為業務報告沒有看到水環境的部分當然當然不可能要你全部寫完然後經濟部的工作內容太多了所以我是擔憂水環境的部分會不會喊卡而台中市包括柳川綠川以及我們的三合分署"},{"start":17324.446,"end":17353.112,"text":"山河局所管轄的我東區漢溪大理漢溪潭子漢溪豐原漢溪北屯的漢溪這條漢溪非常的長也需要經濟部給予一定的預算這部分是不是能夠幫我深入探討呢?是我剛才聽我們隨意署在講說這個還在這個立法院審議中所以只要審過我們就會去執行那你有提出需求有提出相關預算給我們審嗎?"},{"start":17355.835,"end":17378.448,"text":"現在的第5期的概算那個我請這個水利署來回答您問題因為當時國會聯絡人跟我們講說不是這些的計畫都在縣政府縣市政府在提報之中但是因為它涉及到前瞻的第5期預算那第5期預算現在在概編之中那未來若是第5期預算奉大院審定核定的時候我們就開始啟動平和的作業"},{"start":17379.288,"end":17389.683,"text":"因為我們基本上我都知道一定是臺中市政府先送計畫來爭取但是問題是我跟國會聯絡人在聯繫的時候他所謂的前瞻預算第5期他是告訴我沒有這筆錢"},{"start":17391.791,"end":17416.113,"text":"我們會改正這一部分所以這個部分是不是能夠幫我關注一下到底是資訊上的一個落差還是怎麼樣但是我今天的重點就是我很關注台中市的水環境那台中市的水環境在之前的努力有給予我們一定的預算一二三期都有做後面能不能延伸柳川的第四期綠川的第三期以及漢溪的整治這部分是不是可以高度的一個關注"},{"start":17417.455,"end":17443.503,"text":"在未來的審查的時候我們來看市政府的計畫是怎麼樣的進行我想部長今天很多人對於AI對於發電能源綠能都有很多的一個關注跟你做探討今天我想少數會跟你探討這一個部分的水環境是不是也請你稍微幫我留意一下我也希望看到第5期的前瞻能夠審過以後能夠適時真的有編列這樣的預算分配到台中市讓我們繼續延續之前的水環境建設"},{"start":17444.423,"end":17445.624,"text":"經濟部有自己首推的縣市嗎?"},{"start":17472.455,"end":17472.875,"text":"經濟部部長"},{"start":17491.185,"end":17492.785,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":17530.455,"end":17530.475,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":17556.537,"end":17569.918,"text":"那SRF它是現在最新的叫做固體再生燃料那是不是那個那可能請署長來幫忙回答一下那我請問一下SRF的部分我們這邊認定它是綠能嗎"},{"start":17574.112,"end":17574.292,"text":"對,好,那"},{"start":17595.08,"end":17606.491,"text":"如果像我們台灣的SRF它並沒有特別限定它裡面有包含廢輪胎、PVC管還有一些塑料、金屬材料那這些燃燒出來的部分的東西它算是綠能嗎?"},{"start":17608.208,"end":17628.923,"text":"呃 這個部分就要看他的還是要還是要看他的這些燒出來的東西 廢輪胎燒出來可以算綠能嗎廢輪胎如果他就是石化的話 如果是橡膠當然他就不能被歸納為是綠能的部分但是我們講說用廢棄物製成燃料再發電這目前在我們的再生條例裡面這個是認定為再生能源但是他不是綠能"},{"start":17629.912,"end":17643.897,"text":"好 所以基本上臺灣的SRF其他的標準嚴格來講算起來不能算是綠能只能算是再生能源嗎還是要看它的成分啦我跟委員報告那有碳排可以算綠能嗎"},{"start":17645.267,"end":17660.859,"text":"就是說它如果是裡面有包含石化原料的話就不算是綠能嘛但是所以我臺灣的排放標準其實就是包含這些所以嚴格來講它有這些東西燒出來就不能算是綠能那我想請問一下那我們針對我們109年的時候我們經濟部長那時候王美花部長"},{"start":17665.362,"end":17686.54,"text":"他有當時有跟我們那時候的桃園市長鄭文燦市長好針對桃園有3家SRF廠商入園這部分署長應該知道吧這3家就是台灣地方可寧會跟麗江3家廠嗎是這個知道好那針對這3家廠後來因為民眾說沒有環評沒有開公聽會後來"},{"start":17693.325,"end":17715.205,"text":"民眾就開始抗爭那我們去了解以後那其實在107年開始的時候我們經發級專業主管單位都反對這三家SRF廠入園然後後來也針對特別也針對氣電工生的部分他們也很明確說氣電工生只能天然氣所以也就是說這SRF廠的發電廠"},{"start":17718.147,"end":17719.048,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":17739.628,"end":17762.225,"text":"因為民眾的抗爭那我想請問一下後來民眾的抗爭之後我們也當時我們才發現原來鄭市長原先也是不同意的那後來也因為經濟部要求後來鄭市長也說那你發推薦函我再允許他入園那署長這部分應該知道吧"},{"start":17763.683,"end":17779.802,"text":"那後來因為民眾抗爭又取消了這個推薦函那這部分應該也了解吧那我請問一下那當初這三家廠商入園之後我們跟廠商有沒有信賴保護原則"},{"start":17782.694,"end":17808.833,"text":"我請這個署長回答一下我跟委員報告齁當初是基於剛才講的再生能源還有循環經濟沒關係我意思是說當初因為經濟部推薦嘛我們政事部推薦還沒有 經濟部推薦還沒有那這裏面有沒有信賴保護原則經濟部推薦還只是純粹的一個建議那整個裏面也會議區也做得很清楚還是要回歸到桃園市政府的對就是所以就是"},{"start":17811.431,"end":17837.074,"text":"桃園市政府政事長有講他是依經濟部的推薦函才同意這三家廠商入園那所以現在我們經濟部撤銷這個推薦函那市府也依我們經濟部撤銷這個推薦函之後也取消他入園但是現在這三家廠商已經對桃園市政府提告不知道我們經濟部知不知道這個事情"},{"start":17837.654,"end":17862.407,"text":"那是提那個訴願對提訴願嘛就是訴訟嘛所以這個當初就是有信賴保護原則所以他才提出訴願對不對各位委員報告我們那個建議函在所有的入園許可中不是必備要件完全是回到桃園市政府當時的所謂的圖管那個入園的相關的許可去好那我請問一下你當初推薦他入園的原因是什麼"},{"start":17863.308,"end":17863.468,"text":"主席"},{"start":17878.608,"end":17894.661,"text":"主席我重點請問一下那現在因為經濟部當初推薦所以市府才讓他入園結果後來為什麼經濟部又取消那市府當初有講我依經濟部的推薦我才同意他入園"},{"start":17895.382,"end":17919.894,"text":"所以後來經濟部取消這個推薦欄表示這個推薦已經不復存在所以後來市府一推薦欄的取消所以也取消他入園但是後來廠商提出這個訴願那我想請問這個部分難道經濟部不用負責全部由桃園市政府來承擔嗎我跟委員報告剛剛我也特別提到這個只是一個建議那我們那個會議記錄寫得非常清楚"},{"start":17922.535,"end":17944.403,"text":"所有一切還是要回到桃園市政府的圖管條例好那我今天講重點當初依經濟部的推薦經濟部上級上級單位專業的推薦市府也特別要講他是依我們經濟部的推薦他才同意入園這我們在市長講得很清楚那後來你們主動"},{"start":17945.063,"end":17955.354,"text":"收回這個推薦吶表示這個推薦的原因已經不復存在所以我認為喔這邊簡單兩點建議喔我是認為喔民眾已經抗爭而且其實SRF啊署長啊你從頭到尾根本沒有辦法大聲說他是綠能其實啊他根本就是垃圾焚化爐你去看看這個排放標準根本就是焚化爐所以我這邊建議"},{"start":17968.627,"end":17992.931,"text":"如果真的要處理的話我建議經濟部撤銷這個再生能源的發電設備許可還有撤銷這個廠商再生發電能源的准購合約這才能夠真正為民眾解決問題不應該當初經濟部下指導期現在把所有要國賠的事情通通推給桃園市政府我覺得這個經濟部是不負責任的"},{"start":17994.446,"end":18021.778,"text":"報告委員這個再生能源是沒有問題的但是他不是綠能對啊我就講重點就不是綠能所以現在民眾就反彈啊當初講SRF聽起來很高科技結果根本就是垃圾焚化爐你看看那個標準燒廢輪胎燒PVC管燒金屬建材物燒出來的東西怎麼可能是綠能所以這部分我今天講的重點真的要處理就像我剛剛講的那兩樣再生能源"},{"start":18022.618,"end":18027.505,"text":"報告委員這個是再生能源沒有錯這是不是綠能就是你剛才所說的不是綠能"},{"start":18039.039,"end":18039.319,"text":"主席"},{"start":18059.275,"end":18059.655,"text":"主席慢慢請部長來請郭部長"},{"start":18099.687,"end":18124.176,"text":"部長好委員好部長昨天賴總統去computex那他說了幾個重點第一個就是屬於台灣自己的資料中心第二個是建制超級電腦來供產官學使用那第三個就是持續培養人才讓台灣成為人工智慧島那這三個都跟經濟部有關聯那請問經濟部要如何來落實人工智慧島的部分"},{"start":18126.815,"end":18143.481,"text":"這個如何落實這個人工智慧我想我們會利用我們臺灣這個AI的優勢也就是說我們臺灣生產這個AI的晶片臺灣也是生產大量的這個AI的伺服器所以未來在AI的應用"},{"start":18145.489,"end":18167.454,"text":"跟AI的訓練上面如果我們可以培養更多的工程師我相信對我們台灣百工百業所有的傳統行業跟製造業大概經過4年以後如果我們能夠培養20萬人的這些工程師深入這一些中小微企業那麼跟製造業大概可以提升50%的這個製造業可以來運用這些AI的這個產品"},{"start":18172.375,"end":18178.728,"text":"原來總統說要請企業做的部分還有說要讓臺灣一百多萬家中小企業人工智慧化"},{"start":18179.517,"end":18201.278,"text":"那之前經濟部有輔導臺灣的中小企業數位化那從數位化才有辦法人工智慧化嘛如果你沒有數位化的話那可能比較的困難那花了大概10多年但是我看到很多中小企業在這個數位化的部分可能還未增完善那現在總統有說出了中小企業人工智慧化的政策的這個方針"},{"start":18203.7,"end":18219.147,"text":"請問經濟部要怎麼樣能夠去輔導尚未數位化的這些中小企業來變成AI化這一部分因為我們昨天才收到這個總統的這樣具體的指示所以我們會在未來的這很快的日子裡面來檢討"},{"start":18221.528,"end":18236.447,"text":"就像委員指教的沒有數位化的部分我要怎麼樣子來引導他已經數位化的我如果快速加上讓他快速的智慧化我想這一部分我們會快速的來討論跟他能夠落實"},{"start":18237.939,"end":18264.01,"text":"謝謝部長我想從基礎做起我為什麼講這個數位化開始才有辦法要AI化我記得在求學的階段我們有一個同事他後來去美國的白宮跟國安會他第一份工作就是數位化去寫信給美國白宮或者是總統的這些書信那為什麼要數位化首先就是過去只是把文字存檔而已他沒有辦法去分析恐怖攻擊或者是裡面含威脅相關資訊的數位"},{"start":18265.811,"end":18291.324,"text":"因為只有說話之後他們才能夠去分析他有沒有實質上面對安全性的危害那中小企業也是一樣我相信在要先把最基礎的事情做好說話本身就是一個比較第一步要做的事情那昨天我們也談到媒體有很多在訪問有關於這個可能在潛伏在我國相關的基礎設施特別是有關於電力的供應的這部分"},{"start":18291.844,"end":18315.567,"text":"我想今天很多幾位立法委員都已經有特別提到關於電力的這個supply的部分供應其實我對於常態性發電量的問題我沒有特別去擔心我比較擔心是有惡意的小規模在破壞我們的電廠跟電網這部分我知道說包含行政院的國土辦公室也好或者是國安局或者是國家勤制單位都有"},{"start":18316.207,"end":18326.412,"text":"可是進一步有業館的臺電、中油還有臺水這些首要的目標我想請問部長你有沒有什麼相關的方式來去確保這些關鍵基礎設施的安全"},{"start":18327.472,"end":18351.841,"text":"我講在治安或者是實際的這個安全的方面呢,經濟部都有一些規範存在,那我們也會持續來督導這些單位部長在鵝美的,就是新竹鵝美這個高壓變電站的時候那之前在520之前有人嘗試要去破壞相關的這一個部分那之前在桃園機場也有工人"},{"start":18352.961,"end":18376.476,"text":"務檢電纜﹚"},{"start":18376.718,"end":18402.368,"text":"有嫌疑人等或者是沒有被授權的人出現在那個場域有些動作就會被偵測到所以投資設備甚至是比部署人力會來得更有效率我想請問部長未來有沒有方法或者是有沒有採取相關的措施在增強相關的科技設備在做監測跟確保不會有未經授權的人士出現在不該出現的地方"},{"start":18402.808,"end":18406.051,"text":"希望部長可以把所有你們業館的從台電中油和台水我們關鍵基礎建設關鍵基礎設備所有需要"},{"start":18427.227,"end":18451.246,"text":"部署相關設備的地方全部統整並且同時把這些相關資訊給我們的國安單位知道那我前幾天看到內政部好像說會派警力或者甚至是國防部說會派憲兵來做一些相關基礎建設的部署我覺得這當然是很好但是除了人力的部署之外我想經濟部本身在設備的投資上面可以"},{"start":18452.29,"end":18463.138,"text":"全方位的因為有些時候人力還是有他不足之處來去做好這些基礎設施的保障昨天有國民黨的國會議員有提到"},{"start":18464.076,"end":18490.273,"text":"他把這些都歸類為說甚至比較諷刺的說法歸類成這些其他的義務入侵到我們的電網就算是這樣也好我不管是人為非人為的是不可抗力的相關的設備投資都麻煩部長能夠事先因應來確保說我們未來不會三不五時都遇到這樣的挑戰謝謝"},{"start":18494.96,"end":18500.904,"text":"李博義委員．莊瑞雄委員．所提書面質詢列入紀錄．刊登公報．書面質詢和未及答覆的部分．請相關單位於一週內．以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":18515.274,"end":18527.5,"text":"在過幾天下禮拜一就是一年一度的端午佳節我在這裡提前預祝大家以及全國的鄉親端午節闔家平安快樂謝謝那我們今天的會議就到此結束現在散會謝謝"},{"start":18571.734,"end":18572.735,"text":"主席"},{"start":18597.094,"end":18597.254,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":18618.457,"end":18618.717,"text":"主席響鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}