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首先有請我們農業部我們的黃處長黃處長市委員好黃處長好今年我們專案在討論防洪抗旱但是我看農業部的報告裡面有農業水庫要增加清一那苗栗縣的農業水庫有幾座"},{"start":42.58,"end":53.383,"text":"一共有三座,算很內行,很快清楚狀況,哪三座?明德、大埔還有一個是?"},{"start":59.588,"end":79.353,"text":"再稍微想想看,比較小你都忘記了,你看大不看小,叫做建壇水庫,再照瞧。你今天去,我期盼了很久,以前農業水庫要找水利子他都不管,他說屬於農業部的,今天我終於等到你了,看你們的報告有增加了一條。"},{"start":80.453,"end":97.277,"text":"就是農業水庫要清理那這三個水庫大埔水庫還有明德水庫還有建壇水庫啊現在主管單位是在哪裡我要好好找到他要好好的去研究是我們農水省啦我會帶你去會刊"},{"start":100.598,"end":118.176,"text":"尤其大埔水庫是鄰近的科學延期竹蘭的科學延期苗栗縣兩個重症頭文症跟竹蘭症所以那個真的要強那個汙泥到夏天的時候很臭啊今天你們提出計畫能不能幫我改善完成"},{"start":118.959,"end":141.692,"text":"那至於免得水庫在乾旱的時候我有去看過那時錢都在水利市那邊你們農業部分的很少所以這樣本來要清一結果要清不清的樣子看起來是勉強而清我希望啊次長這個幫我加強改善好不好好的委員這些部分我們都會在我們的預算裡面大力的來執行"},{"start":142.992,"end":152.377,"text":"這說完我會持續的追蹤蔡市長我再帶您去苗栗以下謝謝再來請我們的經濟部次我們的賴市長賴市長"},{"start":161.758,"end":180.699,"text":"委員好賴次長好你當了次長隨意使跟國營事業都是你在監督管理的單位那我們高雄來的賴瑞榮委員非常優秀我非常欣佩但是關於"},{"start":182.02,"end":198.34,"text":"他說啊這次電價調整不調整是將來要留給新民意啊我想說我算幾年以後什麼叫做新民意信從他叫做新民意不信從就不是新民意嘛"},{"start":199.329,"end":219.848,"text":"他講的也明喔這次所謂不調整電價是為了要留給市民你不要這樣炒作啊藍部的也不要有這樣藍綠的觀念啦跟委員會說明我們在審議委員會的話完全沒有討論到這個議題沒有沒有你講的他講的很清楚就是要留給大罷免用的"},{"start":220.569,"end":247.342,"text":"不增加定位如果定位一增加的時候民眾會反感他為了大罷免案所以你們執政黨不敢調整定價我感覺你們都沒擔心是因為關稅的措施而沒被宣示現在對於各國對於經濟的前景甚至為物價的波動委員會的審查日後有擔憂還是你所指定的人你大了解"},{"start":248.686,"end":255.853,"text":"增資2500億你們用增資說不是補貼的再增加500億3000億你們電價調整到現在已經多收了1600億你們5000億的資本額已經給你們4600億在那一邊了怎麼會歸得那麼厲害啊"},{"start":268.204,"end":290.076,"text":"我們是要面對問題我們是講你們的政策有錯誤啦當然裡面還要再去了解一下你也好好了解一下你剛剛過來我不好意思逼問了太緊但是不要有這種觀念為了大罷免不調整電價讓百姓覺得它是一種恩惠不是這樣去處理事情沒有 台電的負債比已經達到93%了"},{"start":293.218,"end":310.675,"text":"那即便台電公司員工非常的努力這個狀況還是要改善都為了一時的利益政黨的利益不要這麼做啊我真的警告啦習近平沒有成功的時候他要怎麼辦大家做事情要合理公平公正嘛"},{"start":312.037,"end":323.535,"text":"不要這樣亂講不是他亂講因為他是我尊重的委員可能他要選高雄市長我幫他宣傳一下好不好再來我們水利市"},{"start":327.331,"end":345.031,"text":"恭喜啊,林市長,我看你報告寫得很好,有水的時候無災,用水有度,再來你說水清衣油,非常的完美,台灣真的是一個美好的社會。"},{"start":346.332,"end":374.03,"text":"但是我只是說我為省議員到現在幾十年看水利局到水利市真的把主要的河川出要河川都整治的確確實實不錯我們中央管理的河川還有幾條主要的河川確實從水利局到現在已經進步很多那你今天提出來我非常欣賞的一句話就是怎樣全流域的治理"},{"start":374.75,"end":396.38,"text":"就是整條街要安裝,洪水來的時候要怎樣去釋散掉那位處長你現在是變成導師我怎麼特別說這樣,我今天要特別提到,我一直在提但是不曉得是軍會的欠缺,離地山上是屬於農業部的"},{"start":397.862,"end":424.736,"text":"那個裡面是在管理的那一個地方我們比較看不到在深山裡面再來深山一出來到一般的河流的時候就開始要整治這裡面也有農業部的水保室但是在這裡我一直在看剛剛你們講到淡化廠賴市長你淡化廠你們水利市一共騙了多少億算農政區請問一下"},{"start":430.224,"end":439.776,"text":"一個廠差不多是300多億包括建設包括營運那建設的部分因為我們是20年所以我一直在講我還在研究這個問題"},{"start":445.726,"end":473.084,"text":"講到南部的滯洪池南部的滯洪池你們少了一樣什麼叫做滯洪池要加湖流水這樣才有真正的效應因為我看過湖流水我這些年看不起這樣東西結果你們歷史做的湖流水缺水的時候真的很有需要你要往下去垂水抽出來所以說彰化廠你不只把這個湖流水滯洪池做在那邊"},{"start":474.105,"end":502.26,"text":"你依照你的流域下來看它的那個高度怎麼樣你們要去排像你一潭水庫要供應給我們縣里跟通宵的結果你們都農業水都沒有用我一直在強調一件事情那個丘陵地的凹地你就去把它看這個水路怎麼走你們不要啦把它當成住房池又加了浮流水你們反而不準"},{"start":503.18,"end":526.983,"text":"阿咱水包括溶水使得在灌溉水你們說喔溶液用水讓位很多你就在海邊靠近最低的地方把那些水灌溉的時候沒有用的水全部把它存到那個地方土地要買你也要買要吃你也要吃因為真正要改潔之道在這個地方尤其"},{"start":528.413,"end":540.983,"text":"廖處長,你在水利市的時候還做了一個開花裡面要的排水流量就是水源都把它存起來,水要湊出來,你只要這樣,你只要當化廠蓋的整層樓,不然台灣人做千福之國,那裡面起來不用走不準。"},{"start":548.311,"end":574.919,"text":"又能防治防洪,水才來最少,你有消化的地方。你這樣在地上活,你也真不...啊,我們現在怎麼喝水,就是地方自己的排水溝管理不好。像高雄哪裡有高,我來做水管,我集中在那裡把它蓋掉。你那普通的水溝不清,當然會淹水啦。這是有轉型跟沒轉型,天天都在講自己有多好。"},{"start":575.868,"end":590.089,"text":"要了解經濟戰我現在還說依照這樣製黃池加忽略水大膽的去做真的台灣才會不缺水才會說你們有水無災"},{"start":591.391,"end":614.92,"text":"用水的時候,大家高興用一點,不覺得怎麼樣,不要急急急急。當然像今年,我相信你水過了,你要注意防洪的問題,今年沒有旱災。但是我剛剛講的,我不曉得你們看法怎麼樣,秋林地到處哪裡都可以做我們的製索,要加浮流水。"},{"start":616.437,"end":635.874,"text":"像桃園你看到很多的水塘山,你在找辦法改進做湖流水嘛,那澳白乾脆就要跳出來,水源不斷。我是醜人,但是我摸過這個地方,天天在跑,天天被罵,罵到有血淚,這樣一點姿勢,我不知道會不會痛,你告訴我。"},{"start":637.915,"end":653.325,"text":"謝謝委員指導的意見多元的水資源的供給就是我們的政策目標而委員所提到方案裡面涉及到許多需要科學調查的部分在經濟部的地方中心針對於九大的地下水分區水源地址都有很好的調查"},{"start":654.105,"end":664.789,"text":"也是因為這些調查包括水利署下游的地下水的調查所以我們在百年大旱每找一口井它的出水量都達到我們預期的目標但是浮流水是很好的一個水源但是要看地質狀況"},{"start":676.394,"end":697.643,"text":"所以我們現在對水資源開發是適地適用,然後多元開發,還有倍元我告訴你,我告訴你幾年了,你現在要告訴我現在先去做處長,我通宵的丘陵地,燕尼的丘陵地那個地方我說你們去做一個做王子水庫精美化的作用"},{"start":698.343,"end":722.458,"text":"那根本會改變當地的一個休閒產業,這點你能答應我?現在你就提出這個結尾,我跟你們說,我跟你們說啊現在海地都沒有錢,都幾千億都用在擁抱啊這個就是行政院之所以要成立水及流域永續推動小組的目的好啦,次長,講得那麼準,你想什麼計畫只要你把我們實現當是你們承諾要做的啦"},{"start":723.098,"end":747.043,"text":"你們只說趴著,水沒有流逝,打井下來又抽不到水,都是表面的河口的崩潰啊我是很真心的講,好不好?你只是你的領域市長,我帶你們去看怎麼去做因為真的會做下來很漂亮,當地修行觀光產業會活化"},{"start":749.659,"end":768.789,"text":"是 謝謝委員指導不是是啊 阿市長你要怎麼做 我會找你來看喔 好吧好 要多時間 要請委員長去指導沒有沒有 你不要手手給我回答一下我是跟蹤事情很緊的人謝謝委員好不好 拜託一下 這幾個問題解決我頭就不會變得那麼白了 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時45分）主席好，首先有請農業部黃次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長昭欽：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：黃次長好。今天的專案報告是在討論防洪抗旱，但是我看農業部的報告裡面有提到農業水庫要增加清淤，請問苗栗縣的農業水庫有幾座？"],["黃次長昭欽：一共有三座。"],["陳委員超明：算很內行，很快進入狀況，哪三座？"],["黃次長昭欽：明德、大埔，還有一個是……"],["陳委員超明：再稍微想想看，比較小的你都忘記了，你看大，不看小，叫做劍潭水庫，在造橋。今天我期盼了很久，以前農業水庫找水利署，它都不管，它說是屬於農業部的，今天我終於等到你了。我看你們的報告有增加了一條，就是農業水庫要清淤。這三個水庫──大埔水庫、明德水庫，還有劍潭水庫，現在主管單位是在哪裡？我要好好找到它，要好好地去研究，是農水署嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["陳委員超明：蔡署長，你很優秀，我會帶你去會勘，尤其大埔水庫鄰近竹南的科學園區、苗栗縣的兩個重鎮──頭份市跟竹南鎮，所以那個真的要清，那個污泥到夏天的時候很臭啊！今天你們提出計畫了，能不能幫我改善完成？至於明德水庫在乾旱的時候我有去看過，那時錢都在水利署那邊，你們農業部分得很少，所以本來要清淤，結果要清不清的樣子，看起來是勉強而清，我希望次長幫我加強改善，好不好？"],["黃次長昭欽：好的，委員，這些部分我們都會在我們的預算裡面大力地來執行。"],["陳委員超明：好，你說的喔，我會持續地追蹤。"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["陳委員超明：蔡署長，我再帶你去苗栗一下，謝謝。","再來請經濟部賴次長。"],["主席：請賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：賴次長好。你當了次長，水利署跟國營事業都是你監督管理的單位。我們高雄來的賴瑞隆委員非常優秀，我非常欽佩，但是他說這次電價調整不調整，將來是要留給新民意的，我想說我才當選一年，什麼叫做新民意？順從他叫做新民意，不順從就不是新民意？他講得很明喔！這次之所以不調整電價是未來要留給新民意，不要這樣炒作啊！南部的也不要有這樣藍綠的觀念啦！"],["賴次長建信：跟委員及委員會說明，我們在審議委員會完全沒有討論到這個議題。"],["陳委員超明：沒有、沒有，他講得很清楚，不增加電費就是要留給大罷免用的，如果電費一增加，民眾會反感，為了大罷免案，所以你們執政黨不敢調漲電價，我覺得你們都沒擔當……"],["賴次長建信：是因為關稅的措施跟貿易的談判……"],["陳委員超明：都逞一時的利益，不敢真的面對現實啦！"],["賴次長建信：現在各國對於經濟的前景，甚至物價的波動，委員會審查認為有擔憂。"],["陳委員超明：對、對、對，但是你身為次長就應該了解，增資2,500億，你們用增資，說不是補貼，再增加500億變3,000億，你們電價調整到現在已經多收了1,600億，5,000億的資本額已經給你們4,600億了，怎麼會虧得那麼厲害？不要這樣說……"],["賴次長建信：台電一整年支出將近一兆元……"],["陳委員超明：我們是要面對問題，我們是講你們的政策有錯誤啦，當然裡面還要再去了解一下，你也好好了解一下，你剛剛過來，我不好意思逼問的太緊，但是不要有這種觀念，為了大罷免而不調整電價，讓百姓覺得是一種恩惠，不是這樣去處理事情。"],["賴次長建信：沒有，台電的負債比已經達到93%了，即便台電公司員工非常的努力……"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，不可以這樣啦，這樣難看啦……"],["賴次長建信：這個狀況還是要改善。"],["陳委員超明：都為了一時的利益、政黨的利益，不要這麼做，我真的警告啦！新民意沒有成功的時候，它要怎麼辦？大家做事情要合理、公平公正嘛！不要這樣亂講……也不是他亂講，因為他是我尊重的委員，他可能是要選高雄市長，我幫他宣傳一下，好不好？","再來，請我們水利署。恭喜啊，林署長。"],["林署長元鵬：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：我看你報告寫得很好，這樣寫「有水無災、用水有度」，再來說「水清魚游」，寫得非常的完美，臺灣真的是一個美好的社會。但是我說真的，我從省議員到現在，幾十年來，看到從水利局到水利署，真的把主要的河川、次要河川，確確實實的都整治的不錯，我們中央管理的河川還有幾條主要的河川，確實從水利局到現在已經進步很多。你今天提出來有一句話我非常的欣賞，就是全流域的治理，整條溪在洪水來的時候，要怎樣去疏散掉？賴次長，你現在變成導師，我為什麼特別這樣說？我今天要特別提到，其實我一直在提，但是不曉得是不是經費上有欠缺，在山上是屬於農業部林業署在管理的，那一個地方我們比較看不到，在深山裡面，再來，深山出來到一般河流的時候就開始要整治，這裡面也有農業部的水保署。但是我一直在看，剛剛你們講到淡化廠，賴次長，你們水利署在淡化廠一共編了多少預算？總共幾千億？"],["賴次長建信：一個廠差不多是三百多億，包括建設、營運，建設的部分，因為我們是發包……"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦，你跟我說預算多少就好了。"],["賴次長建信：20年。"],["陳委員超明：我一直在講，也在研究這個問題，講到南部的滯洪池，你們少了一樣什麼？叫做滯洪池要加伏流水，這樣才有真正的效益，因為我看過伏流水，我最先也看不起這樣東西，結果你們水利署做了伏流水，缺水的時候真的很有需要，你要往下去存水、抽出來。所以做淡化廠，你不如把伏流水、滯洪池做在那邊，依照你的流域下來看它的高度怎麼樣，你們要去排，像鯉魚潭水庫要供應給我們苑裡跟通霄的，結果農業水都沒有用。我一直在強調一件事情，丘陵地的凹地，你就去看它水路怎麼走，把它當成滯洪池，又加了伏流水，你們不用煩惱沒水，包括農水署的灌溉水，你們說農業用水浪費很多，你就在海邊靠近最低的地方，把灌溉的時候沒有用的水全部把它存到那個地方，土地要買，你也要買；要租，你也要租，因為真正改革之道在這個地方。","尤其賴次長，你在水利署的時候還做了一個開發……裡面要有什麼排水流量，水很多把它存起來、水要抽出來，你們就要這樣用啦！淡化廠花那幾千億，不知道臺灣可以做千湖之國，裡面做起來不用怕沒水，又能防治防洪，水災來至少有消化的地方，你這樣治水才有用。現在淹水，就說是地方自己的排水溝管理不好，像高雄那麼厲害，我來做市長，我絕對把那邊改掉，你普通的水溝不清，當然會淹水啦，這是有專心跟沒專心，天天都在講自己有多好，要了解根源在這。","我現在跟你說，依照這樣滯洪池加伏流水，滯洪池加伏流水，大膽的去做，臺灣才真的不會缺水，才會「有水無災」，用水的時候，大家高興，用一點也不覺得怎麼樣，不要這樣「虯儉」。當然，像今年我相信水夠了，你要注意防洪的問題，今年沒有旱災，但是我剛剛講的，我不曉得你們看法怎麼樣，丘陵地到處都可以做我們的滯洪池，要加伏流水啦！像桃園有很多的水塘，你再把它改進做伏流水嘛！以後缺水就從那裡抽出來，水源不斷，我是粗人，但是我摸過這個地方，天天在跑、天天被罵，罵到有學了這樣一點知識，我不知道可不可行，你跟我說明一下。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員指導的意見。多元水資源的供給，就是我們的政策目標，而委員所提到的方案裡面，涉及到許多需要科學調查的部分，在經濟部的地礦中心，針對於九大的地下水分區、水文、地質都有很好的調查，就因為這些調查，包括水利署下游的地下水的調查，所以我們在百年大旱，每鑿一口井，它的出水量都達到我們預期的目標。"],["陳委員超明：從深山出來的丘陵地看到，現在那個土地……"],["賴次長建信：但是伏流水是很好的一個水源……"],["陳委員超明：你可以抽出來嘛！沒有水的時候灌溉用……"],["賴次長建信：但是要看地質狀況……"],["陳委員超明：其他水庫的水，給科技在用、產業在用嘛！"],["賴次長建信：所以我們現在對水資源開發是適地、適用，然後多元、開發還有備援。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說好幾年了，你曾經跟我說「好」，現在升官去做次長了，我們通霄丘陵地、苑裡丘陵地那個地方，我說你們去做一個滯洪池，有水庫兼美化的作用，會改變當地的一個休閒產業，這一點你可以答應我，現在你就提出這個計畫，我才來跟你說，我才敢講，不然你們在那叫沒錢，但幾千億都用在南部啊！"],["賴次長建信：這就是行政院之所以要成立水及流域永續推動小組的目的。"],["陳委員超明：好啦，次長，講了那麼久，你講什麼計畫，我只要你實現當初你們承諾要做的啦！你們只說打井，水沒有留住，打井下來又抽不到水，都做表面好看的工作，我是很真心的講，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：委員我們會盡力……"],["陳委員超明：尤其是林署長，我帶你們去看，怎麼去做，因為做下來真的會很漂亮，當地休閒觀光產業會活化。"],["林署長元鵬：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["陳委員超明：不是「是」啊！到底要怎樣真的來做？我會帶你去看喔，好不好？"],["林署長元鵬：好。約個時間，再請委員幫我們指導。"],["陳委員超明：「有影無影」？你不要這樣笑笑的回答我一下……"],["林署長元鵬：不會，不會。"],["陳委員超明：我是追蹤事情很緊的人耶！"],["林署長元鵬：謝謝委員長期的支持，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：好不好，拜託一下，這幾個問題解決，我頭髮就不會變得那麼白了，謝謝。"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們現在請黃健豪委員詢答。黃健豪委員，黃健豪委員不在。","現在請鍾佳濱委員做詢答。","中午我們不休息，延長開會時間到詢答結束。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","陳超明","鍾佳濱","蔡易餘","葉元之","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-31"],"gazette_id":"1143301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就「2025年防洪抗旱計\n畫」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143301_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}