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來次長有沒有辦法請我們的水利主管機關的協助農業部門餘溫來認定"},{"start":173.08,"end":192.973,"text":"現在基本上所謂的工具間只要在一定的規模不造成妨礙水流的狀態之下但是事實上我們現在七合分數去現場看的很多是超過我們諸位想像的我瞭解但這些的部分對於水流是沒有錯我完全支持所以我希望說認定標準要一致"},{"start":193.753,"end":213.724,"text":"你要知道這個漁民會活動比高 為什麼他會失敗的不行 了解齁所以我希望說次長請指示我們水利署配合我們漁政農政單位下去做合理的認定好嗎 標準把它抓出來那漁民才知道說什麼可以做什麼不可以做 好不好 可以齁沒有問題接下來我們請黃次長來來黃次長風災農損怎麼解"},{"start":221.079,"end":244.594,"text":"氣候變遷我們只能靠政府的現金救助嗎我們也會強化我們的農業的韌性所以基本上在一些田間管理還有這個作物的這個焊作或者是輪作的這個部分我們都會來加強我們的輔導好謝謝 其實你們有一個做法除了現金救助之外你們農業部做了一個調查其實呢一般來講我們的現金救助平均每年只有31億"},{"start":246.316,"end":257.069,"text":"農業損失大概在121億其實大部分是農民呢他七到八成是自己要承擔所以你們是鼓勵農業保險嘛對不對除了農業保險還有什麼方式可以減少農民的災損"},{"start":259.266,"end":264.289,"text":"是不是我們透過設施農業,對不對?如果是溫室的設施,它可以擋風、避雨,還可以防蟲,是不是這樣子?所以農業部要鼓勵設施農業來減少包括天災、不管是旱災、水災的這樣的一個損害嗎?"},{"start":282.269,"end":301.745,"text":"對於這個方面我們一直都有在鼓勵好 但是問題來了來 下一頁為什麼農民他們比較不願轉從設施農業呢因為它的建置成本確實很高對 建置成本很高你馬上知道我要跟你請教的那農民沒有負擔那怎麼解決我們的農民就是有地有技術他有流動力但是他沒有資金所以我們一直 我一直在推廣農業部呢用"},{"start":303.246,"end":320.147,"text":"我們本來對農民給他貸款通稅貸三分之一啦對不對但是三分之一他也在損失啦所以我就覺得說有沒有可能未來的農業會轉向農企那農企本身他的經營方式他有能力去做貸款的設定"},{"start":320.868,"end":335.126,"text":"那是不是說地主農民提供土地 農企業去辦你專案貸款興建設施 農民還可以進來承租這個設施來使用像小黃瓜啦 這個茄子啦或者說其他的檳榔廢原轉做的設施 農業部知不知此"},{"start":336.154,"end":354.999,"text":"對於委員這樣子把這個由這個農企業的這個部分事實上確實是也是一個選項那不過跟目前的這個我們台灣的小農的這個部分的話可能還是有一些落差但是我們願意來思考沒有錯台灣的農業是小農為主但是現在變成是老農小農變老農了 青農沒有地"},{"start":357.519,"end":377.259,"text":"也沒有資金但是呢 今天老農有地 親農有勞動力如果透過農企業的介入透過 您是管農業金庫跟農金署嗎獨島啦另外一個市長獨島另外一個市長獨島 我記得是你 今天特別問你這一題那我今天選錯是不是另外一個市長是哪位市長是"},{"start":379.585,"end":401.978,"text":"胡赤是胡赤在負責是吧好那不管這個事情我還在跟你們部長講簡單兩個結論請農業部加強輔導農民投入設施農業的栽培並評估由農企業來協助興建由我們農業部以租代購的方式來協助他們那也金剛那個署長也還有我們次長也下去了就是經濟部水利署請就實況研擬適當規範輔導我們的水產養殖戶在河川地上合法經營可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":409.043,"end":409.596,"text":"好谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":767,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時58分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們經濟部賴次長和水利署林署長。"],["主席：請賴次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也請農業部的黃次長和漁業署的陳副署長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好、署長好、副署長好。「魚塭設施配合防洪合理認定，設施農業可以減少災損推廣以租代購」，首先請教我們的賴次長，河川地可以設置魚塭嗎？"],["賴次長建信：河川地經過評估，在我們的管理辦法裡面，魚塭經過許可之後是可以的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是可以的嘛！「經水理分析無妨礙河防安全者」，這規定在河川管理法第六十二條嘛！","黃次長，你知道我們屏東很多河川地，我們臺灣是荒溪型的啦，平常時沒水，河川地很多農民在利用啦！"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：陳副署長，我有邀請你去過屏東嘛？"],["陳副署長建佑：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：屏東的屏北地區，是不是很多漁民的魚塭是設在河川地上面？"],["陳副署長建佑：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：平常是水利單位在管理嘛。那我請問一下水利署，魚塭的所有設施都被允許設在河川地裡面嗎？可以嗎？"],["林署長元鵬：只要是剛剛特別談到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：無妨礙？"],["林署長元鵬：對，無妨礙水流是可以設置的，沒有問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在去年的9月13日，為了讓里港地區的養殖漁業用地……因為要合法申請，他們也去登記了，但是都遇到一個問題，就是漁業署要去認定的時候，河川局都說：你們這是「寮仔」，放工具、裝飼料的啦！這就是一個很明顯的問題。你們都知道，飼料放在魚塭旁邊，因為怕下雨，一定會做遮蔽，但是你們說那是行水區，四周圍不能有遮蔽，只可以用網子或門把它封起來，以免遭竊。但是那樣飼料間就沒有辦法達到防雨的效果啊！怎麼解決？有辦法解決嗎？"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員，因為在高灘地裡面，如果加蓋類似庫房的建築物的話，我們都希望它有透水性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有透水性？"],["林署長元鵬：如果四面都圍起來，恐怕……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不把四面圍起來，下雨的時候飼料就濕掉了啊！"],["林署長元鵬：這個有一些技術，我們儘量用能夠透水的方式來做處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：賴次長，有沒有辦法請我們的水利主管機關協助農業部門、魚塭來認定？"],["賴次長建信：現在基本上所謂的工具間也要在一定的規模、不造成妨礙水流的狀況之下，但是現在我們七河分署去現場看的，很多是超過諸位想像的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解。所以我希望……"],["賴次長建信：那部分對水流是有妨礙的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，我完全支持，但是我希望認定標準要一致。你要知道，漁民會互相比較，為什麼他可以、我不行？瞭解吧！所以我請次長指示水利署配合漁政、農政單位，下去做合理的認定，好嗎？把標準抓出來，這樣漁民才知道什麼可以做、什麼不可以做。好不好？可以嗎？"],["賴次長建信：好，沒有問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來請問黃次長：風災農損怎麼解？氣候變遷，農民只能靠政府的現金救助嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：我們也會強化我們的農業韌性，所以基本上在一些田間管理還有作物的旱作或者是輪作的部分，我們都會來加強輔導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實你們有一個做法，除了現金救助之外，你們農業部做了一個調查：一般來講，現金救助平均每年31億，農業損失平均每年大約121億，其實有七至八成是農民自己要承擔。所以你們是鼓勵農業保險嘛！對不對？"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：除了農業保險，還有什麼方式可以減少農民的災損？是不是透過設施農業？對不對？"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：露天魚塭容易受損，室內養殖就比較不會。如果是網室或溫室設施，可以擋風、避雨，還可以防蟲，是不是這樣？"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以農業部有沒有要鼓勵以設施農業來減少天災包括早災、水災的損害？"],["黃次長昭欽：對於這方面，我們一直都有在鼓勵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是問題來了。為什麼農民比較不願轉型採設施農業？"],["黃次長昭欽：因為它的建置成本確實比較高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，建置成本很高。你馬上知道我要跟你請教的。農民沒辦法負擔，要怎麼解決？農民有地、有技術、有勞動力，但是缺乏資金，所以我希望農業部推廣，本來農民貸款最多可以貸三分之一，但是三分之二也是會損失啊！所以我是覺得，未來的農業有沒有可能轉向農企？農企本身的經營方式就有能力去做貸款的設定，是不是由地主（農民）提供土地，農企業去辦理專案貸款，興建設施，農民還可以進場承租這個設施來使用，像小黃瓜、茄子或者是其他如檳榔廢園轉作的設施，農業部支不支持？"],["黃次長昭欽：對於委員這樣子以農企業來辦理貸款，確實也是一個選項，不過這跟目前臺灣的小農可能還是有一些落差，但是我們願意來思考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，臺灣的農業是以小農為主，但是現在變成老農，小農變老農了，青農沒有地、也沒有資金，但是今天老農有地，青農有勞動力，如果透過農企業的介入……","您是督導農業金庫跟農金署嘛！"],["黃次長昭欽：是由另外一位次長督導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是另外一位次長督導？我還以為是你，所以今天特別問你這一題。我今天選錯日子了。另外一位次長是哪一位次長？"],["黃次長昭欽：是胡次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔，是胡次長在負責。這件事情我會再跟你們部長講，現在就簡單講兩個結論：請農業部加強輔導農民投入設施農業的栽培，並評估由農企業協助興建設施，用以租代購的方式來協助他們；另外是請經濟部水利署就實況研擬適當規範，輔導水產養殖戶在河川地上合法經營。可以嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請蔡易餘委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-6","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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