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改善行人的這一個去訂定一個補助的標準 考核的標準我不知道你們做了沒做得如何跟委員報告啦 因為過去 去年才剛執行第一期啦那所以它其實相關的考核是今年才會開始那所以 而且是在鼓勵提案"},{"start":270.649,"end":296.283,"text":"所以我們是先在目前為止都先用鼓勵提案的概念先鼓勵地方政府下去做我跟你講齁去年我去年你們去看你回去看我的諮詢我就諮詢我就要求啦你一開始做我就發現問題啦我是不是就覺得這個有問題啊你們要去做啊對不對你們現在的要求地方積極的來地方就給你報一堆案子來"},{"start":297.469,"end":322.171,"text":"到最後第一個沒有能力做第二個他報給你的案子跟他實際執行的內容是不一樣的啊對不對我是不是在去年就講了我說像這種的你就下次要補助你可以不給他你管他是什麼市長啊我們要把錢花在刀口上欸他給你申請人行道結果他就完全去做綠美化結果把人行道搞得亂七八糟"},{"start":323.607,"end":341.39,"text":"這樣合理嗎我覺得這筆錢就不能這樣花啊對這個我們在審查的過程當中都會去抓出這些問題都會去抓出這些問題不是除了抓出問題之外我是不是要請你們要做一個考核的標又不是我錢給他的你就不管"},{"start":341.67,"end":360.924,"text":"喔 不會 這我們事後都會去考核因為中間都會有列管的會議啊不是啦 阿里你事後考核他都已經發包出去了然後地方的發包他就依地方政府的發包去執行了啊等於他報給你中央是A計畫他地方執行的B計畫 對不對"},{"start":362.825,"end":365.327,"text":"那個B計畫發包的人已經來不及處理了根本我們在設計階段都會有審查都會要他把設計的報告會送過來我們會再做實際的檢查來確認他的預算的內容我就舉一個例子給你啊我們新北就很多啊對不對那像我就跟你講啦我們的長江路對不對他報給你A計畫他做的是B計畫啊對不對"},{"start":388.042,"end":414.528,"text":"像那種計畫的話就是說我們只能合我們要求的這一個部分我只能給你我的部分至於你要額外增加的一些綠美化那就是你自己的經費要去做處理我們通常都會把它切開來經費處理是一件事情我們對配合你的生活圈道路你的什麼還有你主要幹道15分鐘之內要到交流道什麼這都是你們的政策對不對他的人行道"},{"start":415.566,"end":429.239,"text":"如果亂做影響到車流你那個15分鐘的計畫能達成嗎這個是環環相扣的你不要以為這一個降下去就沒事我覺得這個不對我舉我剛舉"},{"start":434.279,"end":449.697,"text":"長江路的例子就是全國也有很多這樣啊沒有縣市長那麼笨啦我跟您要一筆錢然後我自己再多加一點然後我來做什麼綠美化或做什麼我跟你講塞車是你的問題啦綠美化是我的政績啦"},{"start":450.917,"end":475.404,"text":"可以這樣嗎這筆錢重複的這樣子就會受到很大的影響所以我才說要做一個管考我覺得這一點真的很重要我想這個我們在現行的管考我想會把委員這個意見我們再加進來來檢視一下這些計畫的合理性應該是說它的內容的合理性你上次就這樣跟我講了是 這個我們其實在管考會議都有在討論"},{"start":476.804,"end":498.971,"text":"我覺得這是一個要嚴肅去面對的問題啦既然有這筆錢我們希望他花的好啦而不是這樣子你如果把他執行的好我跟你講我不相信有哪個立委要再來說這筆錢怎麼樣做的不好怎麼樣我跟你講他如果這樣子敢這樣子講如果你把他管考好的話全台灣都看得出他的成果的時候誰會去說這個不好"},{"start":503.388,"end":521.454,"text":"我覺得他自己就要就要面對人家的檢驗哪一個人能夠睜眼說瞎話我覺得你只要做得好人家就無法挑剔你啦所以在這樣的情況下像現在啦現在啦再給我30秒現在"},{"start":523.567,"end":548.008,"text":"你所有的前瞻計畫如果有-1萬這樣子你很多的補助沒了喔是不是很多都沒了很多都沒了你們會不會挪用這些去填那裡不會因為兩個預算獎執行內容不一樣我知道執行內容我們在行政機關那麼久了啦可以怎麼樣我們大家都清楚我的意思是說"},{"start":550.163,"end":558.497,"text":"該什麼樣的就是什麼樣的不要去做別的啦反正前瞻計畫被刪了現在已經是事實了"},{"start":559.472,"end":581.792,"text":"不能給的就不能給了我覺得也只能這樣啦我們這筆錢我們這筆錢應該用在他原來的地方地方你管他什麼幾期幾期那個另外想辦法也不是現在可以解決的前瞻一直沒有通過的話大概不是只有要核定的案子會受影響可能連執行中的"},{"start":582.452,"end":602.527,"text":"都會受影響執行中的也會受影響那你執行中的你現在也沒辦法啊你內政部你也不可能拿出其他的錢來啦你反而要趕快讓地方知道錢就已經到這裡了要怎麼收要怎麼去那個可以現在處理你不要現在不處理到時候又衍生一堆問題來我覺得應該是這樣子錢都已經被刪了啊"},{"start":608.371,"end":637.19,"text":"對不對 你不可能去伸出錢來吧沒錯 所以我們其實在之前的管考會議都已經有通知地方政府了就是原來預計核定的案子都停下來那執行中的案子我們就撥付到一定程度我們就不再撥款對 要先跟他們講我覺得這個要讓地方也有一個應變那像我們今天在討論的這個我必須要說一句如果預算沒解凍 你要先跟他們講"},{"start":638.371,"end":662.039,"text":"是沒有就是沒有啦不要現在他說他要繼續發包到時候發包完再跟你講說他已經發包了我覺得不應該欸這個是浪費錢欸浪費地方政府的錢欸他不要再去做任何發包的程序了了解因為生活圈是一個長期的計畫對一旦有中間有一個預算受到影響其實他連帶後面整個受影響"},{"start":662.899,"end":687.691,"text":"但我的意思就是說你說的是沒有錯但是如果你他會地方政府有的或承辦的他沒有去管他他就先照計畫去發包那你發包完了反正也沒錢第一個浪費你去發包的錢第二個你沒有錢下來你反而衍生一堆問題到時候承包商到時候要來找你們什麼我跟你講他到時候會推給你內政部說內政部就沒給我錢"},{"start":690.608,"end":703.061,"text":"這些我認為現在都要去預備我們這個預算這樣子因為我們剛也問了就是說行政院內政部也還沒有辦法去確確算出多少錢來我們也沒有去做解凍的問題"},{"start":704.164,"end":732.11,"text":"那沒有在這個情況之下我跟你講現在已經四月了啦可以預期今年很多都不能做了啦也做不了了啦不要浪費人民的納稅錢你反而要他們集中精力做哪些可以做的那這些長期計劃性的看明年的預算可以明年再補給他們我覺得這樣子才是解決問題啦不然你會變成中央跟地方空耗"},{"start":732.987,"end":739.641,"text":"沒有錢的空號這我們已經有在檢討會議跟地方政府做說明請讓議委因應 謝謝好 謝謝張宏祿召委 下一位我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":218,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時42分）我請署長。"],["主席：署長有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，當然每個委員有每個委員的立場，但剛剛也有委員質詢時提到你們就是都做得不好，所以刪你們的預算，要來解凍要看條件，要好的話才要解凍，這個話你認同嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，這是中央跟地方通力才能解決的問題，今天也不一定說預算編列得非常多，地方政府就能夠完全執行，因為大家執行的量能都有一定的程度。我們每年都在做這部分的考核，不斷地在檢討地方政府提案的內容，尤其做人行道是一個很辛苦的事情，因為現有的道路已經以車行為主，要再改成人行的話，地方政府在執行的過程當中，我們也體會它要跟民眾溝通的一些困難，所以每年都會不斷地去檢討考核，看看它的提案數量。其實大家都已經盡力在執行，這部分也不能單方面只看一個數字，還是要去看執行後的效果，所以到目前來講，我們認為我們執行的成果是非常的好。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，你認為你的執行成果好，可是人家剛剛有的委員就認為你的執行不好，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這個也不是我說的，對不對？剛剛你自己有沒有聽清楚，有沒有？你剛剛有沒有聽清楚？"],["吳署長欣修：有。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛，所以我剛剛問你的、我請教你的，他說你們執行不好，所以刪你們的預算、凍結你們的預算，你們要做好再來。我只問你，這個你贊不贊成？"],["吳署長欣修：其實我反而是覺得要替地方政府再講得更清楚……"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，你只要回答我贊不贊成？"],["吳署長欣修：因為其實我們執行的效果是非常的好。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，你只要回答我，你贊不贊成？"],["吳署長欣修：其實我是比較尷尬啦。"],["張委員宏陸：你比較尷尬？我為什麼要問你這個？我為什麼要問你這個？"],["吳署長欣修：我只能說我們盡力去處理。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，我為什麼要問你這個？我跟你講，每個委員的看法都有他的道理，他要刪你的預算，有人說是亂刪、有人說什麼……我覺得各自表述無妨，但我是不大認同。為什麼我不大認同呢？要看要看全國，你不能只看你的地方，因為你們這些案子都是跟縣市政府合作的吧，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：每個縣市政府的能力、態度不一樣吧？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：啊？"],["吳署長欣修：的確是這樣。"],["張委員宏陸：我還以為你說「錯」咧，沒錯還是錯？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：好。每個縣市政府的積極度、能力、種種條件都不一樣，你不能用很差的縣市政府來說全國都這樣，所以你看一個報表或是一個數據來刪這個預算或是做為解凍的依據，我個人認為不公平，對於積極任事的縣市首長是一個非常不公平的事情。本來就做不好的，我說真的，你要去凍它或是要怎麼樣，我覺得還說得過去，但很多是積極在做的吧，是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：其實大多數都非常、非常積極。"],["張委員宏陸：你也不要跟我講「大多數」啦！坦白跟你講，署長，你說「大多數」這就是官話了，我們看得出來有的就不積極，有的也是亂搞，對不對？我在一年前，請你們對改善行人通行安全的人行道工程，去訂定一個補助跟考核的標準，我不知道你們做了沒有，做得如何？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為去年才剛執行第一期，相關的考核今年才會開始，而且是在鼓勵提案，所以我們到目前為止都是用鼓勵提案的概念，先鼓勵地方政府下去做……"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，我跟你講，你回去看我的質詢，去年我質詢時就要求了……"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：你一開始做我就發現問題了，我是不是就跟你說這個有問題，你們要去訂定考核的標準，對不對？你們現在要求地方積極做，地方就跟你報一堆案子來，到最後，第一個，沒有能力做；第二個，它報給你的案子跟它實際執行的內容是不一樣的，對不對？我是不是在去年就講了，我說像這一種的，下次要補助你就可以不給它，你管他是什麼市長啊！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我們要把錢花在刀口上耶！"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：它跟你申請人行道，結果完全去做綠美化，把人行道搞得亂七八糟，這樣合理嗎？我覺得這筆錢就不能這樣花。"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們在審查的過程當中都會去抓出這些問題。"],["張委員宏陸：都會去抓出這些問題？"],["吳署長欣修：對、對。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不是，除了抓出問題之外，我是不是說請你們要做一個考核的標準，而不是錢給它了就不管。"],["吳署長欣修：不會，我們事後都會去考核，因為中間都會有列管的會議，會有列管跟檢討的會議。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦，你事後考核，它都已經發包出去了，然後就依地方政府的發包去執行了啊！"],["吳署長欣修：是，因為我們說明……"],["張委員宏陸：等於它報給中央的是A計畫，地方執行的是B計畫，對不對？那B計畫它發包了，你已經來不及處理啦。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們在設計階段都有審查，都會要它把設計的報告送過來，我們會再實際檢查來確認它的預算內容。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，我就舉一個例子給你，我們新北就有很多，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我就跟你講，像我們的長江路，它報給你A計畫，它做的是B計畫，對不對？這樣可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：像那一種計畫，我們只能核我們要求的部分，我只能給你我的部分，至於你要額外增加的一些綠美化，那就是要用你自己的經費去處理，我們通常都會把它切開來。"],["張委員宏陸：不，經費處理是一件事情，對於配合你的生活圈道路，還有主要幹道15分鐘之內要到交流道等等，這些都是你們的政策，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：它的人行道如果亂做，影響到車流，你那個15分鐘的計畫能達成嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：了解，我想……"],["張委員宏陸：這是環環相扣的呢！對不對？你不要以為這樣下去就沒事，而且我覺得這個不對，我剛剛舉長江路的例子，全國也有很多這樣的狀況，沒有縣市長那麼笨啦，我跟你要一筆錢，然後我自己再多加一點來做什麼綠美化或是做什麼，我跟你講，塞車是你的問題，綠美化是我的政績啦，可以這樣嗎？這筆錢這樣使用就會受到很大的影響，所以我才說要做管考，對不對？我覺得這一點真的很重要。"],["吳署長欣修：是。我想我們會在現行的管考裡面，把委員這個意見再加進來，來檢視一下這些計畫的合理性，應該是說它的內容的合理性。"],["張委員宏陸：你上次就是這樣跟我講的。"],["吳署長欣修：是、是，這個我們其實在管考會議都有在討論。"],["張委員宏陸：不，我覺得這是一個要嚴肅面對的問題，既然有這筆錢，我們希望它花得好，而不是這樣子，如果執行得好，我跟你講，我不相信有哪個立委會再來說這筆錢怎麼樣做得不好，如果你管考好，全臺灣都看得出成果的時候，誰會去說這個不好？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得他自己就要面對人家的檢驗，哪一個人能夠睜眼說瞎話？我覺得你只要做得好，人家就無法挑剔你。現在這樣的情況，以覆議案的結果來看，很多前瞻計畫的補助都沒有了。"],["吳署長欣修：對，前瞻。"],["張委員宏陸：是不是很多都沒了？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：很多都沒了，你們會不會挪用這些去填那裡？"],["吳署長欣修：不會，因為兩個預算項目執行內容不一樣。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道執行內容，我們在行政機關那麼久了，可以怎麼樣我們大家都清楚，我的意思是該什麼樣的就是什麼樣的。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：不要去做別的，反正前瞻計畫被刪了已經是事實，不能給的就不能給了，我覺得也只能這樣。我們這筆錢應該用在它原來的地方你管，地方什麼幾期，那個另外想辦法，也不是現在可以解決的。"],["吳署長欣修：前瞻一直沒有通過的話，大概不只有要核定的案子會受影響，可能連執行中的都會受影響。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！我剛剛就是說……"],["吳署長欣修：對，執行中的也會受影響。"],["張委員宏陸：那執行中的，你現在也沒辦法啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：內政部也不可能拿出其他的錢來了。"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：你反而要趕快讓地方知道，錢就已經到這裡了。現在可以處理的是要怎麼收尾，你不要現在不處理，到時候又衍生一堆問題，我覺得應該是這樣子。"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：錢都已經被刪了，你也不可能生出錢來吧？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯，所以我們在之前的管考會議都已經有通知地方政府了，就是原來預計核定的案子都停下來，執行中的案子我們就撥付到一定程度就不再撥款。"],["張委員宏陸：對！要先跟他們講，我覺得這個要讓地方也有一個應變。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：像我們今天在討論的這個，我必須要說一句，如果預算沒解凍，你要先跟他們講欸！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有就是沒有啦！"],["吳署長欣修：對，這個都已經有跟他們報告。"],["張委員宏陸：不要現在它繼續發包，到時候發包完再跟你講它已經發包了。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得不應該，這個是浪費地方政府的錢，不要讓它再去做任何發包的程序了。"],["吳署長欣修：了解，因為生活圈是一個長期的計畫。"],["張委員宏陸：對。"],["吳署長欣修：一旦中間有一個預算受到影響，其他連帶後面整個受影響。"],["張委員宏陸：是，我的意思就是你說的沒有錯，但是如果有的地方政府或承辦的沒去管它，就先照計畫去發包，發包完了反正也沒錢，第一個浪費發包的錢；第二個沒有錢下來，反而衍生一堆問題，承包商到時候會來找你們要錢，因為地方會推給內政部，說內政部就沒給錢。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這些我認為現在都要去預備。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：現在預算是這樣子，剛剛我也問了，就是行政院、內政部也還沒有辦法確切算出是多少錢，我們也沒辦法去做解凍的問題，我跟你講，現在已經4月了，可以預期今年很多都不能做了。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：也做不了了啦！不要浪費人民的納稅錢，你反而要他們集中精力做那些可以做的，這些長期性的計畫，如果明年的預算可以，明年再補給他們，我覺得這樣子才是解決問題。"],["吳署長欣修：是，有跟地方政府說明。"],["張委員宏陸：不然會變成中央跟地方空耗──沒有錢的空耗。"],["吳署長欣修：是，我們已經有在檢討會議跟地方政府說明，請他們預有因應。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","下一位請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-8","speakers":["牛煦庭","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","蘇巧慧","黃建賓","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","張啓楷","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2025-04-07"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、交通部就「市區道路品質改善計畫執行效益與檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143401_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}