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主席謝謝 麻煩請吳次長請次長"},{"start":15.128,"end":36.234,"text":"市長台鐵最重要除了安全還是安全那我們不希望說有發生任何的一個事故但這一次清明年假其實台鐵也發生兩起媒體有報導的意外事故其中有一個是在台中太原站有普悠瑪號因為有落軌的意外有沒有查清"},{"start":37.478,"end":63.346,"text":"事實真相為何?是我跟委員報告這一個案件是發生在剛剛講就清明這個年假那天我們把那個錄影帶調出來可以看得出來他是輕生的也就是說他在那個月台等著那個類似快進站的時候快到的時候他突然往月台裡面跳他並不是一個意外的跌落好"},{"start":64.54,"end":86.037,"text":"所以這是親身的一個事故是但不管怎麼樣在現在的過程裡面其實很多人更想要了解的是台鐵的公司化一年多的時間了那有沒有把我們相關的不管是準點不管是我們最基本的安全有沒有到位"},{"start":87.379,"end":94.568,"text":"市長 了不了解我們公司化之後我們的一個統計的狀況準點率所以我跟委員報告"},{"start":97.469,"end":118.059,"text":"過去去年大概從2013年成立嘛它的準點力過去跟過去來比事故事件確實是比過去稍微多一點公司化之後反而比過去還要多對 但是主要大概有兩個有一個原因比較大原因就是剛講天然災害去年的那個地震比較多一路清的部分比較多就像剛剛講的"},{"start":119.099,"end":143.986,"text":"那過去我們也發生過有那個車子他會開到我們的那個從頻道裡面開到我們軌道裡面去那個你開到裡面去我們不曉得他為什麼開到裡面去一耽擱就耽擱了一千多分那像這個如果把這個排除以後啊我們的準點率其實還可以到97.5來 市長媒體有幫你做統計跟報導準點率公司化之後下降了再來"},{"start":147.461,"end":169.954,"text":"近十年異常的行車意外跟件數上升了2024年這都是客觀的數據你剛剛特別提到去年四月有大地震所以四月之後有可能因為天災的狀況而造成我們這個準點率比較低好那我們來看一下前三個月也沒有達標啊"},{"start":172.093,"end":195.118,"text":"四月之前四月發生地震所以你說四月五月六月給你三個月的時間讓你比較寬鬆沒錯嘛你看到四月的時候他突然降到81%就代表是說確實有受到天災的影響我不否認但是一月二月三月的時候你也比之前還要來的低啊所以不要推給天災"},{"start":197.321,"end":207.527,"text":"天災沒有辦法控制但重點在於是說我們當初要求或說期待的是台鐵要公司化之後能夠準點能夠安全能夠到位"},{"start":208.615,"end":226.851,"text":"到目前為止有做到嗎來 市長本席一直關心 因為一直都在交通委員會我們0402的太魯閣號的事故確實大家都非常的難過也是讓台鐵真的公司化的一個很重要的關鍵我們"},{"start":228.912,"end":248.886,"text":"4月2號我也出席了我是唯一一位立法委員出席我們當天晚上的紀念音樂會但是本席當天其實也有感覺到為什麼大家也都在討論我們花了八千多萬去做所謂的燈光的吊唸紀念"},{"start":250.526,"end":277.857,"text":"台鐵這兩天被大家全都砲轟講說安全沒有到位準點沒有到位人員的改善沒有到位工作環境沒有到位我們還多花八千多萬金額高低一回事可是台鐵現在給我們的解釋居然講說是家屬的建議又要推給家屬啊家屬情何以堪啊台鐵做的決定然後現在講說是家屬的建議那大家是要再針對家屬嗎市長"},{"start":280.697,"end":303.672,"text":"能不能說句公道話 到底我們現在花了這八千多萬有沒有把錢花在刀口上我跟委員報告 確實這個案子外面的外界對這部分都有一些意見但我跟委員報告 這個原來的案子我們最早是希望在當地就事故地點立碑的方式"},{"start":304.372,"end":326.362,"text":"那當然那時候跟家屬在討論的時候他們認為這個太過於傳統他們希望一個不一樣的所以後來才變成協調是由所謂的在隧道裡面設置燈光的方式那因為它比較偏遠所以它的相關的一些單價還有必須在就是停班以後才可以施作所以相對的一些這個費用會比較高一點"},{"start":327.122,"end":356.177,"text":"我想這是讓我們台鐵一定記得這樣的一個事情就是四年前的0402的問題當成我們的一個最大的教訓我想在安全的方面台鐵的改革是永無止境的當然台鐵改革是永無止境的但重點是用了大家都記得我還記得那個時候就是在清明連假結束之後的交通委員會9點28分到的時候大家都在討論"},{"start":358.339,"end":386.318,"text":"我們也希望能夠台鐵永遠記得這樣的一個事故不是說用經費用這個燈光重點是改革嘛 安全嘛好 所以 來 市長想請教一下怎麼會突然間讓大家也覺得很訝異董事長就請辭了那我們備位的董事長您這邊是站帶嘛無預警的提出請辭這也讓大家覺得說很訝異啊"},{"start":387.642,"end":405.699,"text":"有沒有去了解 來是不是說明一下你的代理會代理多久代理還不曉得目前在尋找適合的管理人所以董事長的請辭沒有給我們交通部有任何找紀委人選的時間他就是要離開"},{"start":409.005,"end":431.625,"text":"他是生涯規劃啦我瞭解是這樣子我看到啦你們新聞稿寫生涯規劃嘛是但重點在於是說台鐵公司這麼重要重要重要是啊那怎麼會我相信以董事長之前也是一輩子的台鐵人了是那連多一點時間給我們交通部去找說專業的董事長來接任也不願意"},{"start":433.692,"end":460.747,"text":"中間溝通出了什麼問題我所理解的應該不是這樣子啦我想這個過去他有提出來那當然我們有一直在慰留他嘛那因為他後面的行程已經排定了所以我們大概只能尊重他所以你預計代理多久也不知道應該很快什麼時候能夠提出來人選你是次長你總該可以了解吧沒辦法跟委員報告你這算是救火是不是"},{"start":462.097,"end":484.076,"text":"這是目前因為現在還沒有一個適合人選那先由我來暫時代理是嗎所以你講到重點嘛在於是說台鐵的公司那麼重要合適的人選還沒有找到然後就任董事長就離開然後讓你要來代理那我們行政部門或說我們民進黨政府到底打台鐵公司當然是什麼我想這個部分最後來"},{"start":486.121,"end":512.484,"text":"我看到我們台鐵公司剛滿一年但是向交通部要提出希望能夠爭取公司考積列甲等但目前掛牌首年虧損了137億點多事故又更多大多數又是人為的事故所以市長是台鐵爭取考積列甲等交通部會同意嗎"},{"start":514.481,"end":541.007,"text":"這個交通部沒有既定的立場因為這個考程還有相關的規定這個列出來是前董事長的指示還是你的指示這是他們把過去之前嘛對 之前的時候就已經依照各個指標然後把指標送上來那由交通部先做一個初審那你現在接代理董事長你滿意現在台鐵的指標嗎當然 我覺得看到剛剛的事故有改善的空間"},{"start":543.022,"end":566.03,"text":"有改善的空間有努力的空間換言之其實到目前為止國人在一年了公司化還是沒有感受到台鐵有脫胎換骨改善的決心更不要講是我們今天還在討論你要活化資產不是不能活化公司化本來就是有更彈性的空間但重點"},{"start":567.51,"end":592.107,"text":"請真的不要忘記因為後面還有其他委員要質詢本席只想強調請不要忘記不管是公司的話不管是台鐵大家對你的期待其實重點在於是安全安全還是安全沒有做到安全什麼都是白談是不要本末倒置不要讓國人覺得台鐵記取事故教訓只是射燈光"},{"start":594.198,"end":600.872,"text":"只是每年行李如宜而沒有真真正正把台鐵的改革放在心上是謝謝是 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":42,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時15分）主席謝謝，麻煩請伍次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，臺鐵最重要的除了安全還是安全，畢竟我們不希望發生任何的事故。但媒體報導，這次清明連假臺鐵發生了兩起意外事故，其中一件是在臺中太原站普悠瑪號所遇到的落軌意外，你們有沒有查清事實真相為何？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，這個案件發生在清明連假期間，把錄影帶調出來後可以看出他是輕生的，也就是說他在月臺等列車進站快到的時候，突然往月臺裡面跳，所以並非意外跌落。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這是一起輕生事故？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：不管怎麼樣，現在很多人更想了解的是，臺鐵公司化已經一年多了，不管是準點或最基本的安全等相關事項有沒有到位？"],["伍次長勝園：是，我跟委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，了不了解臺鐵公司化之後相關數據的統計狀況？譬如準點率？"],["伍次長勝園：是，跟委員報告，臺鐵公司從113年成立，跟過去相比，事故事件確實比過去稍微多一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：公司化之後反而比過去還要多？"],["伍次長勝園：對，主要原因大概有兩個，其中一個比較大的原因是天然災害。就像剛剛講的，去年地震比較多、異物入侵比較多。過去也發生過汽車從平交道開進軌道，我們根本不曉得為什麼汽車會開到裡面去，所以一耽擱就耽擱了一千多分鐘。若把這種狀況排除，我們的準點率其實達到97.5%。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，其實媒體有幫你做統計跟報導，準點率在公司化之後下降了！再來，近十年異常的行車意外與件數上升了，尤其是2024年，這都是客觀的數據。你剛剛特別提到去年4月有大地震，所以4月之後有可能因為天災而造成準點率比較低。好，我們來看一下，前三個月其實也沒有達標！4月發生地震，所以給你三個月時間，4月、5月、6月讓你比較寬鬆。沒錯，4月的時候突然降到81%，代表確實有受到天災影響，這點我不否認。問題是，1月、2月、3月的準點率也比之前來得低，所以不要推給天災，天災沒有辦法控制！重點在於，我們當初要求、也期待臺鐵公司化之後能夠準點、能夠安全、能夠到位，到目前為止有做到嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：是，委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席一直都在交通委員會，一直很關心0402太魯閣號出軌事故，這確實讓大家都非常難過，也是臺鐵公司化的重要關鍵。4月2日那天我也出席了，我是唯一一位出席當天晚上紀念音樂會的立法委員。本席當天有發現為什麼大家都在討論臺鐵花了八千多萬做所謂的燈光悼念紀念？以致這兩天臺鐵被大家砲轟，說臺鐵安全沒有到位、準點沒有到位、人員改善沒有到位、工作環境沒有到位，居然還多花八千多萬？金額高低是一回事，但臺鐵竟然解釋說，這是家屬的建議。又要推給家屬？讓家屬情何以堪！這是臺鐵做的決定，現在卻說是家屬的建議，難道大家要再針對家屬嗎？次長，能不能說句公道話？到底這八千多萬有沒有花在刀口上？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，確實，外界確實對這個案子有一些意見。跟委員報告，原來我們最早是希望在事故地點立碑，在跟家屬在討論時，他們認為太過於傳統，他們希望有一個不一樣的方式，後來才協調成在隧道裡設置燈光，但因為比較偏遠，所以在單價上……且必須停班以後才可以施作，導致相對的費用會比較高一點，我想這是讓我們臺鐵一定要記得這樣的事情，就是把4年前的0402事故當成我們一個最大的教訓，我想在安全方面臺鐵的改革是永無止境的。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然臺鐵改革是永無止境啦！但重點是大家都要記得，我還記得在清明連假結束之後的交通委員會，9點28分到的時候大家都在討論，我們也希望臺鐵能夠永遠記得這樣一個事故，但並不是說用經費、用燈光，重點是改革嘛！安全嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以次長，想請教一下，讓大家也覺得很訝異的是，怎麼會突然間董事長就請辭了？我們備位的董事長，您這邊是暫代嘛，董事長無預警的提出請辭，也讓大家覺得很訝異，有沒有去了解？是不是說明一下？你的代理會代理多久？"],["伍次長勝園：代理多久還不曉得，目前在尋找適合的管理者……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以董事長的請辭沒有給交通部任何找繼位人選的時間？他就是要離開？"],["伍次長勝園：他是因為生涯規劃，以我的了解是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：我看了啦，你們的新聞稿寫的是生涯規劃，但重點在於是臺鐵公司重不重要？重要！"],["伍次長勝園：重要。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，那怎麼會……我相信董事長之前也是一輩子的臺鐵人了，連多一點時間給我們交通部去找專業的董事長來接任也不願意？中間溝通出了什麼問題？"],["伍次長勝園：我所理解的應該不是這樣子啦，過去他也有提出，當然我們有一直在慰留他嘛，因為他後面的行程已經排定了，所以我們大概也只能尊重他。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你預計代理多久也不知道？"],["伍次長勝園：應該很快。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候能夠提出人選？你是次長，你總該可以瞭解吧？"],["伍次長勝園：這個我沒辦法跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：你這算是救火，是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：就是因為現在還沒有一個適合的人選，就先由我來暫時代理。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛，所以你講到重點了，臺鐵公司那麼重要，合適的人選還沒有找到，舊任董事長就離開了，然後讓你要來代理，請問行政部門，或者是說民進黨政府到底把臺鐵公司當成是什麼？"],["伍次長勝園：我想這個部分應該是……"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，我看到臺鐵公司掛牌剛滿一年，但是向交通部提出希望能夠爭取公司考績列甲等，目前掛牌首年虧損了一百三十七億多，事故又更多，大多數又是人為的事故，所以次長，臺鐵爭取考績列甲等，交通部會同意嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：這個部分交通部沒有既定的立場，因為考成是有相關的規定，它把他們相關……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個列出來是前董事長的指示還是你的指示？"],["伍次長勝園：這是他們把過去……"],["洪委員孟楷：之前嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：對，之前，那時候就已經依照各個指標把資料送上來，由交通部先做一個初審。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在接代理董事長，你滿意現在臺鐵的指標嗎？看到剛剛的事故……"],["伍次長勝園：當然，我是覺得有改善的空間，有努力的空間。"],["洪委員孟楷：有改善的空間、有努力的空間？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：換言之，其實到目前為止，國人在臺鐵公司化一年後還是沒有感受到臺鐵有脫胎換骨改善的決心……"],["伍次長勝園：但我想跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：更不要講我們今天還在討論你要活化資產，不是不能活化，公司化本來就是有更彈性的空間，但重點請真的不要忘記，因為後面還有其他委員要質詢，本席只想強調，請不要忘記，不管是公司化，不管是大家對臺鐵的期待，其實重點是在於安全、安全還是安全，沒有做到安全什麼都是白談！不要本末倒置，不要讓國人覺得臺鐵記取事故教訓只是設置燈光、只是每年行禮如儀，而沒有真真正正把臺鐵的改革放在心上。"],["伍次長勝園：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","何欣純","游顥","王美惠","葉元之","黃健豪","沈發惠","翁曉玲"],"page_start":355,"meetingDate":["2025-04-07"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員蔡其昌等17人、二、委員林宜瑾等27人、三、委員楊瓊瓔等21人及四、委員徐富癸\n等17人分別擬具「國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司設置條例第十條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143401_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}