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隨便花 亂花反正又不是決策的人要出這件事情交通部有檢討嗎台鐵有檢討嗎還是118450萬在台鐵的眼中這小錢啦 藍三的啦 沒有關係啊是這樣嗎說明一下這件事情誰要負責"},{"start":171.584,"end":180.967,"text":"我再強調一次喔這是新車喔這不是舊車喔這不是舊車老舊要去換設備是從新的車開始座椅就有問題連交通部部長都承認有問題結果再花一億八我們的政府很有錢還是台鐵很有錢來說明一下誰要負責"},{"start":197.393,"end":214.32,"text":"我想跟委員報告因為這個當時他的座椅的材質是所謂的防火的耐燃的部分所以他比較硬一點那確實大概做起來大概補片的就覺得反應說比較硬所以我剛剛都講過了現在我再問你的問題是誰要負責沒有人要負責嗎沒有關係花納稅人的錢啊"},{"start":225.836,"end":254.765,"text":"現在大家看不懂啊我們的政府到底在做什麼決策粗糙品質爛新的車的座椅沒辦法坐沒有關係再花118來改還不是只有這件事喔再往下看普悠瑪完了以後又搞一個列控4.0找了一個詐騙廠商啊叫李力"},{"start":256.755,"end":284.741,"text":"怎麼勾上線的我有一定程度的了解李立啊現在是把我們啊國際桃園國際機場T3航廈的自駕車的系統搞得亂七八糟啊搞到要解約啊現在這廠商啊躲到哪裡去了不知道但是這個詐騙廠商啊政商關係良好啊關係非常的好之前搞一個列控4.0"},{"start":286.553,"end":314.829,"text":"花六千萬結果我又問應安會說系統根本不能用來你們這個列控4.0還要再搞第二期嗎公務員報告這部分我們現在還在評估啦還要評估多久還要評估多久我們會在我們董事會的那個安全我老實跟你們講啦當初錯了就勇敢承認錯誤啦不要以拖待變啦"},{"start":316.584,"end":343.576,"text":"所以要評估18個月這種爛東西需要評估18個月喔笑死人了啊你們反正就是用時間來拖延嘛之前花6000萬你丟一顆石頭到水裡還會動一聲啊你花了6000萬搞這個列控室點停室有什麼用什麼用都沒有啦我跟你保證你18個月買以後絕對不會繼續做啦為什麼不會繼續做 這東西太爛了嘛"},{"start":345.587,"end":367.996,"text":"當初六千萬拿給這個廠商胡搞瞎搞有什麼具體的成果什麼具體的成果都沒有啊政府很有錢啊納稅的錢國家的錢這樣亂花都沒有關係啊改椅子1.8億列控4.0再丟六千萬錢多得不得了啊再往下看台鐵遮斷器"},{"start":377.289,"end":402.694,"text":"1424號 耗費近4.8億 什麼時候裝得完本來預期什麼時候要裝完 現在什麼時候裝得完跟我們報告 現在這個我們評估 因為它涉及到電源的關係現在有關老舊 所以變成電源的部分要先一併來做更新那現在我們評估大概會在明年的七月可以完成明年的七月吧 是遲延多久了大概延了一年多"},{"start":404.138,"end":425.019,"text":"一樣啊爛的不得了啊從花蓮裝到彰化遮斷器放不下來之前我已經質詢過這件事啊來看一下現在進度本來要裝1424號本來去年8月的時候就要做完了現在裝了396套加上42套供料我的資訊有沒有錯"},{"start":427.03,"end":443.195,"text":"沒有錯沒有錯嘛什麼時候做得完 你說明年七月 上一次我問喔你們給我的資料是今年年底要做完但我看這個進度根本做不完嘛絕對做不完嘛現在要延到明年七月喔誰要負責任"},{"start":444.653,"end":461.108,"text":"第二個我上次來這邊問前董事長杜威跟我講說這個遮斷器之前出現了很大的問題因為那是鐵路停交道這牽涉到人命的安全我上次質詢的時候我說這家公司安全嗎"},{"start":462.777,"end":490.152,"text":"裝到髒話都不想要裝啊說不要來裝了啊會出事啊上次杜威跟我講說這個問題有收斂真的有收斂嗎到目前為止有收斂嗎我跟委員報告確實這些原因有在收斂中一個比較嚴重的隱形的關係啦過去兩個月有沒有發生事故因為他遮斷器的問題有沒有發生事故有沒有造成人受傷 有還是沒有"},{"start":493.445,"end":514.659,"text":"有沒有台東的部分有一個對嘛這是你們上次跟我講的說現在安全沒有疑慮我上次質詢的時候台鐵回函給我安全沒有疑慮結果呢結果你們內部的人看不下去說那個董事長胡說八道說謊你們新聞蓋得很好這個是內部的人傳來給我的"},{"start":521.417,"end":535.468,"text":"又造成事故了啊又有人受傷了啊結果上次我站在這邊質詢啊你們台鐵董事長還跟我講說安全沒有疑慮現在呢今天還是拍胸脯保證安全沒有疑慮嗎"},{"start":538.011,"end":551.422,"text":"我跟委員報告剛提到的這幾個原因確實是前面幾個因素已經弄得已經收斂差不多現在就剩下電源的部分那電源部分因為舊的電源比較不穩定我們現在要講電源就來講電源"},{"start":553.684,"end":582.032,"text":"上次我就講了發刀的時候沒有做好就開始東拉西扯說電源有問題然後你們之前還編了1.9億啊你事情沒做好國家還要再編預算花1.9億讓你去花1.9億讓你去改善電源來我們看一下這個是你們本來追加1.87億嘛這是你們台鐵本來台鐵電聯智慧化提升計畫裡面的內容啊"},{"start":584.368,"end":606.173,"text":"是吧我公開諮詢完了以後說這個不能給同一家特定廠商做這也出事了說現在要公開招標說三月要發包絕標了嗎還沒有這樣還沒有絕標網路的絕標什麼時候要發包還要再拖多久一年的四月就會發"},{"start":611.819,"end":632.017,"text":"我再講一次你們112年回函的內容是什麼?遮斷感沒有電流不足的問題結果現在廠商東西搞不好廠商東西搞不好我們政府解決的方法很簡單納稅人的錢拿來花我再編預算再讓你改善電流"},{"start":633.454,"end":654.288,"text":"現在我有個最根本的問題這個廠商當初在投標的時候他不知道既有客觀環境是什麼你們當初還跟這個廠商講不要去牽拖電流的事情結果現在最後政府讓步了政府讓步解決的方法是什麼納稅人的錢編啊用納稅人的錢去幫這個廠商啊資錢給你四億多搞不定不僅遲延安全還有問題"},{"start":664.358,"end":669.041,"text":"現在解決的方法非常簡單我在編預算再給你錢搞我為什麼說納稅人看不懂我們政府很有錢啦預算這樣亂編亂花都沒有關係啊從頭到尾沒有人要負責嘛我有說錯嗎錢這樣花整個交通部看也沒有關係台鐵也沒有人要負責"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":93,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時25分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請交通部政務次長，也是臺鐵的代理董事長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長，臺鐵有很多事情其實讓納稅人看不太懂，我一樣一樣來跟您請教。第一個，自強號EMU3000型的列車，當初說是臺灣最美的列車，結果跑我們的東部幹線，座椅不符合人體工學，民眾坐得腰酸背痛，還有充電器難用。這些事情之前交通部部長陳世凱在這個委員會接受質詢的時候也說了，說他自己坐都覺得有這樣子的問題，這個必須要改善。請問次長，目前這件事情的改善進度如何？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，針對座椅的問題，我們大概也擬了幾個方案……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，你就直接講現在改善的進度如何？完成百分之多少？"],["伍次長勝園：我們現在已經找出最優的方案，現在要進行所謂的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以還沒有開始進行，對不對？"],["伍次長勝園：還沒有開始，大概……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。第一個，你們現在的改善方案要花多少錢？"],["伍次長勝園：大概1.7億左右。"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下，每一列改裝的費用是369萬，有50列，乘起來是1億8,450萬，這個數字沒有錯嘛？"],["伍次長勝園：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在問題來了，你們當初跟大家號稱，還有什麼人體工學小組，一堆專家參與，結果搞了半天，新的椅子難坐，現在還要花1億8,450萬，這個錢誰要出？這不是舊的車子喔，這是新的車子喔！新的車子進來以後發現椅子很難坐，處理的方式是再花1億8,450萬來改，這個錢誰要出？沒有人要負責嗎？還是沒有關係，納稅人的錢儘量花、隨便花、亂花，反正又不是決策的人要出，這件事情交通部有檢討嗎？臺鐵有檢討嗎？還是1億8,450萬在臺鐵的眼中是小錢啦，是「零星」啦，沒有關係，是這樣嗎？說明一下，這件事情誰要負責？我再強調一次喔，這是新車，這不是舊車、這不是舊車老舊要更換設備，是新車一開始坐椅就有問題，連交通部部長都承認有問題，結果要再花1.8億，我們的政府很有錢還是臺鐵很有錢？說明一下誰要負責？"],["伍次長勝園：我想跟委員報告，因為當時這個座椅的材質是所謂防火的、耐燃的，所以比較硬一點啦，確實坐起來普遍的反映是比較硬……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我剛剛都講過了，現在我在問你的問題是誰要負責？沒有人要負責嘛！沒有關係，花納稅人的錢啊！現在大家看不懂啊！我們的政府到底在做什麼？決策粗糙、品質爛，新車的座椅沒辦法坐，沒有關係，再花1.8億來改，還不是只有這件事喔！再往下看，普悠瑪完了以後你們又搞一個列控4.0，找了一個詐騙廠商叫理立，怎麼勾上線的，我有一定程度的了解，理立現在把我們桃園國際機場T3航廈的自駕車系統搞得亂七八糟，搞到要解約，現在這個廠商躲到哪裡去了不知道，但是這個詐騙廠商政商關係良好、關係非常的好，之前搞一個列控4.0花6,000萬，結果我問了運安會卻說系統根本不能用，那你們這個列控4.0還要再搞第二期嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，這部分我們現在還在評估。"],["黃委員國昌：還要評估多久？"],["伍次長勝園：我們會在我們董事會的安全……"],["黃委員國昌：我老實跟你們講啦，當初錯了就勇敢承認錯誤，不要以拖待變啦！說要評估18個月，這種爛東西需要評估18個月，笑死人了！你們反正就是用時間來拖延嘛，之前花6,000萬，你丟一顆石頭到水裡還會「咚」一聲，你花了6,000萬搞這個列控4.0是有什麼用？什麼用都沒有啦！我跟你保證，18個月以後你絕對不會繼續做啦，為什麼不會繼續做？這個東西太爛了嘛！當初6,000萬拿給這個廠商胡搞瞎搞，有什麼具體的成果？什麼具體的成果都沒有！政府很有錢，納稅人的錢、國家的錢這樣亂花都沒有關係，改椅子1.8億，列控4.0再丟6,000萬，錢多得不得了啊！","再往下看，臺鐵採購遮斷器1,424套耗費近4.8億，什麼時候裝得完？本來預期什麼時候要裝完？現在什麼時候裝得完？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，據我們評估，因為這涉及到電源系統老舊的關係，所以變成電源的部分要先一併來做更新，現在我們評估大概會在明年7月可以完成。"],["黃委員國昌：明年7月嘛。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["黃委員國昌：遲延多久了？"],["伍次長勝園：大概延了一年多。"],["黃委員國昌：一樣爛得不得了！從花蓮裝到彰化，遮斷器放不下來，之前我已經質詢過這件事，我們來看一下現在的進度，本來要裝1,424套，本來去年8月的時候就要做完了，現在裝了396套加上42套供料，我的資訊有沒有錯？"],["伍次長勝園：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有錯嘛，什麼時候做得完？你是說明年7月，上一次我問的時候，你們給我的資料是今年年底要做完，但我看這個進度根本做不完，絕對做不完嘛！現在要延到明年7月，誰要負責任？","第二個，我上次來這邊問，前董事長杜微跟我講，這個遮斷器之前出現了很大的問題，因為那是鐵路平交道，這牽涉到人命的安全，上次質詢的時候我說這家公司安全嗎？裝到彰化都不想要裝，說不要來裝了，會出事啦！上次杜微跟我講說這個問題有收斂，真的有收斂嗎？到目前為止有收斂嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，確實這些原因有在收斂中，一個比較嚴重的原因是電源的關係。"],["黃委員國昌：過去兩個月有沒有發生事故？因為遮斷器的問題，有沒有發生事故？有沒有造成人受傷？有還是沒有？有沒有？"],["伍次長勝園：臺東的部分有一個。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！這是你們上次跟我講的，說現在安全沒有疑慮，我上次質詢的時候，臺鐵回函給我說安全沒有疑慮，結果呢？結果你們內部的人看不下去，說董事長胡說八道、說謊，你們新聞蓋得很好啦，這個是內部的人傳來給我的，又造成事故了啊、又有人受傷了啊！結果上次我站在這邊質詢，你們臺鐵董事長還跟我講說安全沒有疑慮，現在呢？今天還是拍胸脯保證安全沒有疑慮嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，剛剛提到這幾個原因，確實前面幾個因素已經收斂差不多了，現在就剩下電源的部分，電源的部分因為舊有電源比較不穩定，我們現在準備……"],["黃委員國昌：你要講電源就來講電源，上次我就講了，發包的時候沒有做好就開始東拉西扯說電源有問題，然後你們之前還編了1.9億，你事情沒做好，國家還要再編預算，花1.9億讓你去改善電源。我們來看一下，你們本來是追加1.87億，這是你們臺鐵本來臺鐵電務智慧化提升計畫裡面的內容，是吧！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我公開質詢完了以後，說這個不能再給同一家特定廠商做，這樣會出事情，說現在要公開招標，說3月要發包，那決標了嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：還沒有決標。"],["馮總經理輝昇：網路的決標了。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候要發包？還要再拖多久？我再講一次，你們112年回函的內容是什麼？遮斷桿沒有電流不足的問題，結果現在廠商東西搞不好，廠商東西搞不好，我們政府解決的方法很簡單，納稅人的錢拿來花，我再編預算讓你改善電流。現在我有一個最根本的問題，這個廠商當初在投標的時候，他不知道既有客觀環境是什麼，你們當初還跟這個廠商講不要去牽拖電流的事情，結果現在最後政府讓步了，政府讓步，解決的方法是什麼？用納稅人的錢來編，用納稅人的錢去幫這個廠商。之前給你四億多都搞不定，不僅遲延，安全還有問題，現在解決的方法非常簡單，我再編預算、再給你錢搞，我為什麼說納稅人看不懂，我們政府很有錢啦，預算這樣亂編、亂花都沒有關係，從頭到尾沒有人要負責嘛！我有說錯嗎？錢這樣花，整個交通部看也沒有關係，臺鐵也沒有人要負責！"],["主席：謝謝。臺鐵該改善的還很多，次長跟總經理可能要先整體再思考一下，有很多問題，我之前問過的也很多問題沒有解決。","現在請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":418,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,36-1","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","廖先翔","李昆澤","魯明哲","林國成","陳素月","王義川","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","何欣純","游顥","王美惠","葉元之","黃健豪","沈發惠","翁曉玲"],"page_start":355,"meetingDate":["2025-04-07"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員蔡其昌等17人、二、委員林宜瑾等27人、三、委員楊瓊瓔等21人及四、委員徐富癸\n等17人分別擬具「國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司設置條例第十條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1143401_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}