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體教育的事項在具體作為的部分我們分有四個部分第一個部分我們是促進本國語文教育溝通平台跨部會的一個轉型的一個發展那本部已經有成立本國語言的一個教育推動會藉由跨部會的溝通與民間合作的機制"},{"start":2397.802,"end":2417.541,"text":"積極落實國家語言發展法相關的提議．也提供本國語言教育政策研究及推廣的相關諮詢與建議第二個部分完備國家語言教育支援及提供學生多元學習的機會本部在110年3月15日修正發布十二年國民基準教育課程總綱明定國家語言為國小"},{"start":2419.182,"end":2435.25,"text":"國民小學布定課程國中階段式七八年期實施本土語言布定課程七年級劃列五九年級劃列為彈性學習課程高中部份國家語言布定課程兩學分校定課程規劃四學分來提供學生學習那針對少數一個民間出版或是修"},{"start":2436.21,"end":2457.649,"text":"修讀客語文、民東語言、原住民族語文及臺灣手語部分．以完成學習的用書及教師的手冊編撰．並提供各教育階段的師生使用．此外也補助幼兒園辦理閩南語沉浸式教學．融入教幼兒園的計畫．及國民小學沉浸式本土語言教學計畫．"},{"start":2459.15,"end":2487.846,"text":"此外也是針對高國中辦理本土語言及臺灣索語直播共學的推動計畫那到113年已經有累積完成580部的教學影片拍攝另外國家教育研究院也執行了閩南語、客語及原住民族語的15件的一個研究案那同時我們也透過全國大專院校校長會議鼓勵各校開設本土語言的相關課程那也鼓勵我們大專院校將在課程社同活動部分將本土語言的文化"},{"start":2488.526,"end":2503.804,"text":"一併納入。第三個部分是強化國家語言施肢培育及聘任的部分本部已訂定高級中等以下學校及幼兒園米蘭語、客語及原住民族語言施肢培育施肢及聘用辦法自109年開始已經採用多元化的"},{"start":2504.284,"end":2504.404,"text":"主席"},{"start":2521.687,"end":2543.681,"text":"支援工作人員的培訓及協助現職教師取得語言的資格那持續會辦理有關回流真語的研習第4個部分是營造國家語言終身學習的使用環境那我們也持續的營運及充實線上的常用詞典包括我們本土語言的支援網及教育部的語文成果網等相關的學習資源我們未來已經規劃要建置閩南語語音語料庫那我們在112年首次辦理的閩南語語言認證"},{"start":2550.145,"end":2550.285,"text":"總共177384人參與"},{"start":2567.205,"end":2588.873,"text":"再來是我們要響應有關於擴大母語的活動我們也輔助縣市政府推動臺灣母語日的活動那以及串聯221世界母語日的一個活動的再進行那在持續經濟的方面在第一部分我們也強化本國語文推動會跨部會的溝通平台的部分那在這部分我們持續會辦理本國語文推動會及分組議題的會議那積極研討有關國家語言發展的相關議題"},{"start":2593.195,"end":2608.579,"text":"希望能夠完善我們整個本國語言的教育政策推廣跟研究的一個政策方向第二個部分我們會落實提升國家語言課程跟教材的一個品質那因為國家語言列為而不定課程之後依據課程綱要辦理及並優化本土語言課程品質及編輯本土語言教師的師資那並請我們各縣市政府來鼓勵幼兒園有業"},{"start":2617.941,"end":2636.522,"text":"申請推動本土語言融入幼兒園的教保活動課程。在針對小校還有稀有的語別、選修的人數、較少及偏遠的師資需求的部分,持續辦理本土語言,遲不得共學。在第三個部分是遲遲均靜我們師資培育及聘用的制度。本部跟客家委員會已經有會詢"},{"start":2638.724,"end":2643.986,"text":"修正發布《高級中等以下學校及幼兒園課與師資培育資格及聘用辦法》以經濟我們課與師資的一個培育及聘用的制度另外依照我們師資培育及大學及教育實習機構辦理教育實習辦法裡面也會有協助我們實習夫老"},{"start":2660.171,"end":2684.159,"text":"實習輔導學生去進行有關教學實習希望能夠強化教學實習內涵此外我們也會有相關的一些補助的相關措施包括補助學士後教育學問班的一個獎學金等等的相關的一個獎勵措施第4個部分我們會優化終身學習的國家語言的友善環境除了我們會持續的精進我們線上常用的詞典跟本土語言網站的學習資源之外我們現在已經開始要建置閩南語語音"},{"start":2688.9,"end":2691.583,"text":"此外,我們會進行閩南語語言能力的認證考試提供專業檢視機制,強化試題研發逐步完備電腦化的測驗再來,我們會持續補助部署管所能夠營造母語的學習環境與導覽推動公共圖書館母語志工計畫"},{"start":2710.62,"end":2735.943,"text":"感謝委員關注國家語言發展的教育議題本部已積極與文化部、客家委員會、原住民族委員會密切合作設置跨部會的一個諮詢跟溝通平台並落實推動國家語言教育本部將會積極地收集各方意見精進本土語言、學習資源與環境作為我們未來在相關政策的評估跟推動的參考以上報告敬請大院委員持續給予本部的一個支持跟指導謝謝各位"},{"start":2739.79,"end":2752.539,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝嚴副司長的口頭報告那我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午"},{"start":2758.824,"end":2778.883,"text":"10點30分委員如有臨時提案也請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員、范雲委員質詢結束後進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先我們就請發言登記第一位紅夢凱委員質詢"},{"start":2787.455,"end":2810.585,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請文化部李部長以及我們教育部教育部監事署長來是不是我叫署嗎?好那我們請彭署長還有那個李部長謝謝委員好部長我先請教一下本時有看到說從6月8號開始我們因應花蓮0403地震我們再加碼1200元的這個文化幣"},{"start":2817.888,"end":2837.699,"text":"那請教這文化幣因為本席看了半天還是覺得是說當然衝為花蓮復興振興這個是美意啊所以現在是民眾可以到就是符合資格的年輕朋友16歲到22歲他可以到6月8號開始可以到花蓮去領取文化幣但有沒有限定要在花蓮使用"},{"start":2839.99,"end":2853.335,"text":"報告委員,的確是要我們現在是只要持有文化幣資格的人到花蓮去在當地裡面才可以領到文化幣可以領,但是沒有限花蓮使用一定要限在花蓮使用有嗎?"},{"start":2853.335,"end":2857.157,"text":"有有有你們上面的規範沒有寫到限花蓮使用阿?"},{"start":2858.223,"end":2887.212,"text":"你們上面的規範是說優惠方式是跟原有的文化幣合併使用所以換言之會讓外界以為是說你只要去領取完之後你才可以全台各縣市使用說清楚所以就是現花蓮使用這個花蓮6月8日加碼的文化幣就是1200元在今年的6月8日一直到年底可以到花蓮領取花蓮使用就是要振興花蓮的文化觀光發展是不是"},{"start":2889.995,"end":2902.869,"text":"來部長這個是好事啦我們一起努力讓各縣市都可以也讓花蓮的鄉親可以感受到我們的相關部會的一個用意啦回過頭來今天主要"},{"start":2904.244,"end":2921.726,"text":"我們的這個國家語言發展法其實從2019年開始通過之後到現在三四年的時間那但是我想部長您這個上任一個月左右你應該也很了解到底文化跟教育兩個衝突的部分"},{"start":2922.327,"end":2941.737,"text":"到底我們國家要怎麼樣來去做一個推廣尤其我們在文化國家語言發展法裡面定義當然很良善本席也認同是說應該要來鼓勵所有的一個語言但目前為止我們所定的國家語言發展法到底國家語言有多少目前我們在"},{"start":2943.397,"end":2964.129,"text":"有7種,廣義的有7種只有7種嗎?大約譬如華語,大家最常講的華語,然後就台灣台語,台灣客家語,台灣原住民語,然後還有平埔族語,還有麻族語,還有俗語,這是我們在法律上面"},{"start":2965.066,"end":2971.57,"text":"大致上把它分類大概是這樣但一般來講大家也講是說其實本土語言規定國小來講有52種"},{"start":2974.025,"end":2993.531,"text":"有米蘭語、閩東語、臺灣手語、客語還有不同的腔調光腔調就可以分6種原住民語還可以不同的族語還可以分到42種更不要講是說如果說國小還在加入新住民語那新住民語還有7種不同的新住民話所以夯巴郎加起來是59種"},{"start":2995.646,"end":3018.532,"text":"那這樣子對於我們的這個不管是國家語文的一個發展來講我們推廣我們有那麼多的資源嗎?因為本時有特別看到我們的主管機關是文化部但主管機關文化部其實只針對臺語、馬祖語跟臺灣手語這三個為你們主責的方向是不是?剛剛您講到說我們在國家發展委員裡面因為本來就有客委會"},{"start":3020.192,"end":3038.9,"text":"原民臺、原委會他們各自負責自己的部分那剩下的部分留給我們的就是臺語還有手語還有麻竹語那至於您剛才講的那麼多的語言在各小學如何實施是不是請教育部來回答因為我們文化部好像沒有問題我先請教文化部現在 教育部"},{"start":3041.801,"end":3066.349,"text":"教育部現在我們的之前國家語言發展法要通過之後大家就講是說這有可能會讓教育現場更加的侵蝕教育資源那還有師資的部分到底有沒有辦法來補給到目前為止我剛剛特別看了一下我們教育部今天的報告寫的也是洋洋灑灑但是最重要的現在的師資的部分"},{"start":3067.896,"end":3072.224,"text":"缺額到底還有多少?沒有出現在裡面,是不是說明一下?"},{"start":3076.353,"end":3096.738,"text":"本土比在國小、國中、兩個年級跟高中以一年級為主將近降的一個需求目前已經培養了兩萬三千六百位師資每一年從第一年可能有一萬三千名左右那時候是福音逐年實施"},{"start":3098.238,"end":3123.284,"text":"實施的最高的年級數的時候會是九個年級我們全臺灣預計需要多少師資以現在的師資是夠的只要在去年是最滿的時候都夠那現在我們已經多培養了五千名當時跟委員們報告你培養的是只拿到資格但是有真的進入到媒合所有學校因為到目前為止本席也看到有媒體報導講是說師資不足啊所以有百"},{"start":3124.164,"end":3140.54,"text":"於百名的學校高中的學校他其實高一沒有開課那即便是到今年也有將近50所以上的學校是高一沒開課然後高二、高三才開課所以他就是不想要排擠那十字等於是一個老師用兩當沒有辦法重複重疊使用嘛"},{"start":3141.797,"end":3141.817,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":3164.71,"end":3165.753,"text":"到後來因為有第一年的經驗到一一二"},{"start":3173.55,"end":3201.025,"text":"11、12學年基本上老師的數量已經滿足到今年要為11、13年再準備的時候現在已經有遠超過當時的師資需求數那我確認到目前為止因為現在6月嘛那明年9月的時候新開學的時候不管是國小、國中、高中我們的本土就是我們的國家語言發展的師資都是足夠的"},{"start":3202.045,"end":3220.975,"text":"全台灣各學校在試教的這個過程中一定會有老師那麼我們還服以直播共學這樣的一個制度所以整體而言有看到你這樣的制度但是重點在於是你的各師資除了這個米蘭語以外課語、原名語這些都足夠嗎?對"},{"start":3222.936,"end":3227.219,"text":"現在還是有相關的問題來 南希 抱歉 打擾委員講委員看到垂詢的部分基本上實體實字的部分在局部的像原名語有42個語系這個難免有一些比較細的部分會跟原名會做合作目前我們準備的直播共學的老師也超過800位所以可以在線上在當場的"},{"start":3246.169,"end":3266.937,"text":"實體那一端有老師跟學生一起那麼線上有優秀的族裔老師可以一起來互以教學好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 來 部長我再請教部長就您這樣子看到因為您是新任的文化部長一個國家語言的發展跟培養就你心目中認為它到底是教育工作還是文化工作"},{"start":3268.233,"end":3290.687,"text":"應該兩者都是吧因為我們從小那個戰後出生的孩子在推廣華語的過程中我覺得語言是一個蠻自然的東西然後它本身是越自然越好但是不應該用語言本身來前置所有的那個思想比如說我們推華語不准講台語等等我是經歷過這樣一個過程所以現在國家"},{"start":3293.749,"end":3296.012,"text":"我自己覺得今天走到這個地步是一個在文化上非常的平衡健康的狀態"},{"start":3311.345,"end":3338.448,"text":"我理解跟我也同意說相對來講所有的語言都是一個大家溝通的工具嘛可以溝通是最重要的對不對所以說在目前為止我自己看到的是說我們也不會說是因為獨尊哪一個語言而背棄哪一個語言那另外您剛剛也提到部長您剛剛也提到自然就是說大家使用這個習慣日久習慣成自然所以說這個語言用詞也會來做使用"},{"start":3339.288,"end":3366.64,"text":"對,像譬如說最近黃仁勳他在台下講話的時候你發現他是用英文他夾雜台語他也試著講華語那就是一種語言嘛我覺得語言會隨著不同族群進來之後會修改那當然是一種文化譬如說日本統治台灣的時候台語就會加上那個一些那個等等譬如說台語的這打火機叫Light打其實很多人就講是說它其實就是日文的Light"},{"start":3367.02,"end":3396.28,"text":"對 對不對英文然後日文然後之後再變台語這樣的一個感覺所以語言它涵蓋的真的文化性是非常強大的所以希望我們的小孩子他可以懂多一點語言是蠻好的好那部長我請教不知道有沒有看到之前有一個新聞是有一個小學生小朋友的聯絡簿上面寫說鞋子不換估計是不行的結果老師把估計兩個字畫出來講說不要用中國的用語比較好"},{"start":3397.16,"end":3415.699,"text":"您怎麼看?我不太能想像這個老師這樣批,我不太能想像了,因為在估計,您會使用估計這個用詞嗎?我會啊,因為我覺得就像我剛剛有講到說,我們這一整代人都是從小接受華語教育的,所以我們的用字用語"},{"start":3416.54,"end":3433.291,"text":"就是很自然的會用我們熟悉的,包括我們小時候學文言文嘛,然後我們學什麼,所以我們每一代人的語言都會變啦,我們每一代人的語言都會變。所以部長您自己怎麼看有一些人也網路上有兩派論戰喔,就覺得是說現在"},{"start":3436.058,"end":3455.08,"text":"中國大陸也好或說華人圈也好有一些用詞是兩岸交流之後大家越來越使用譬如說小鮮肉以前其實台灣如果說以真的來講我們台灣是沒有這樣的一個用法可能對岸用比較多但是現在好像大家習以為常甚至媒體報導都直接寫小鮮肉"},{"start":3456.129,"end":3458.831,"text":"我必須強調文化是一個開放的而不是封閉的所以包括你說新住民來台灣"},{"start":3481.064,"end":3481.764,"text":"我剛剛一直強調文化是最自然的事情"},{"start":3508.573,"end":3536.048,"text":"是同意其實本席之前有幸也擔任過地方的文化首長我那時候就一直強調一個概念就是文化就是一群人在一段時間裡面的習慣經過一段時間的熏陶變成是習慣成自然自然變文化而逐漸自然的形成所以說它絕對不是不用說去互相影響或排斥而是怎麼樣能夠融入讓所以一群人大家有一個集體的共識我想這才是文化的真諦跟本意是不是"},{"start":3536.528,"end":3539.329,"text":"應該沒有想要把之前的政府給推翻吧應該沒有吧"},{"start":3563.769,"end":3581.223,"text":"我們一起努力,其實部長我同意您講的文化是家法啦既然是家法,我們就是海納百川包容讓臺灣,其實臺灣最自豪的就是多元文化能夠讓文化更多元、更自由、更民主、更開放我想這是我們臺灣寶貴的地方,我們一起努力好,謝謝部長好,謝謝,謝謝洪孟楷委員部長請回好,我們接下來請陳培余委員"},{"start":3595.08,"end":3602.601,"text":"好,謝謝主席那第一個部分要有請文化部部長還有國教署署長好,請林部長、彭署長"},{"start":3608.114,"end":3636.873,"text":"謝謝主席今天安排這個主題我們辦公室一直在追蹤關於國家語言還有國家語言發展中心來下一頁賴信德總統在世界母語日他談了三個非常重要的方向三個方向分別是成立國家語言發展中心第二個健全國家語言的教育資源第三個營造多元語言的友善環境但是我不知道部長或者是署長在你們相關的政策推動當中如何去呼應這三個重要的方向我們來看一下第一個來下一頁"},{"start":3639.075,"end":3665.017,"text":"第一個是關於名稱的問題教育部目前我們之前辦公室跟教育部這邊溝通過一個非常非常重要的事情而且有很大的困難我們說你們在書面的語言上甚至在課綱或者是非課綱相關的業務裡面你們都沒有辦法把閩南語這三個字換成臺灣台語或者是臺灣閩南語或者是臺語的相關用法那當時是有很多教授陳情跟投稿到論壇上面"},{"start":3666.258,"end":3679.384,"text":"可是我們在跟教育部溝通的過程當中發現很大的困難你們的說法是說李島地區的地方政府認為有相關的問題那我現在來放一段影片給部長看一下"},{"start":3691.869,"end":3699.251,"text":"他剛才說有夠漂亮啦請問部長還有署長我剛才說的是什麼話?他說有夠漂亮我剛才在說什麼話?部長請先回答他講的應該是臺灣台語部長你剛剛在回答洪孟凱委員的時候你講台語你先用臺灣台語OK我可以接受署長有夠漂亮啦我在說什麼話?"},{"start":3728.414,"end":3749.188,"text":"但是在教育部的相關書面文件這件事情我們一直沒有辦法溝通獲得很大的進展我想要問一下到底發生了什麼事情甚至為什麼我要請文化部長上台因為你們的回覆當中下一頁你們的回覆說叫文化部幫你們再做一次研究可是明明上一次研究相關的論述是在2021年已經調查過了耶那文化部也有相關的建議"},{"start":3749.648,"end":3764.235,"text":"甚至行政院也有發函給所有二級單位必須要遵照行政院指示做相關的調整可是你們卻拿出離島地區的人有不同的意見但是離島地區的人也不是全面否定目前所謂台灣台語這個用法我們來看在離島地區的相關研究報告裡面也說"},{"start":3768.477,"end":3790.279,"text":"我們相關的口音相關的腔調都是同一個語系其實並沒有太大的差異所以我想要問一下教育部之所以沒有辦法在書面文字做調整或者是在我上一次已經提到非課綱的部分沒有辦法快速調非課綱的部分為什麼也不能調整你們明明在很多業務活動在很多學校第一線的現場明明很多活動可以現場就調整到底哪裡遇到了問題"},{"start":3792.23,"end":3794.992,"text":"副部長、署長謝謝謝謝委員那有關課綱的部分國教院齁課綱的部分我們不談我可以接受你們現在目前覺得課綱很難即時的調整我上一次的說法是說非課綱的活動業務第一線的所有公文往來還有你們在做所有活動的時候到底為什麼不能改成台語這件事情"},{"start":3812.908,"end":3827.698,"text":"當然我們希望可以證明回到課綱但是我覺得那個是短中程長期的工作規劃可是至少在非課綱的學校第一線的活動跟相關業務上為什麼沒有辦法剛剛部長也都說了我在講台語你也講我在講台語主席也講我在講台語大家都講在講台語為什麼你在這部分沒辦法做調整"},{"start":3835.197,"end":3854.03,"text":"整體在教育的施教的過程中學生學習的過程中其中課綱他所導引出來的教科書相關的學習占滿大部分尤其是高中以下的教育因此在部裡面整體在周延化這整個過程"},{"start":3855.111,"end":3873.896,"text":"除了在學生的學習剛才你也講到例如相關的活動甚至一些非官剛才講的有關的那些課綱之外的是不是可以有一些證明或是在統整那剛才委員就可以知道在教育界我們裡面那個課綱他目前在工作過程中他會影響到整個教育內這樣子"},{"start":3880.878,"end":3880.898,"text":"委員請說"},{"start":3903.9,"end":3926.625,"text":"當時在國民政府所謂我們小時候課本學的所謂國民政府破千來台這八個字小時候大家都會背破千來台的時候因為作為統治者的工具他把台灣列為是一個單獨一個省然後日後要反攻大陸我想小時候我們大家都背過這些東西然後所以台灣就被定為閩南語這件事情它基本上是一個政權統治工具的用法"},{"start":3927.285,"end":3946.337,"text":"在台灣主體性然後這麼多年強調之後但是你們卻遲遲不肯做調整跟更動當然今天我不會把所有壓力施加在署長身上我們辦公室只是要再一次強調我們在這件事情上我們積極想要跟教育部溝通然後我們也希望文化部真的可以協助不管是透過文化部的角色"},{"start":3946.997,"end":3975.636,"text":"加上教育部去跟地方政府溝通或者是在相關業務的推動上到底有哪一些可以調整下一頁這個部分因為我時間有限是不是我們之後就再繼續跟教育部還有文化部討論包含目前共識的部分我剛剛已經說了相關的研究85%而且是在國家語言發展報告裡面就講了教育部如何堅定立場在可行的日常業務政策規劃當中去做這個調整再來修改閩南語的國家語言發展方向之建議書面用語這件事情我覺得教育部要做更積極的動作"},{"start":3977.037,"end":3981.104,"text":"是不是可以在一個月內提供相關規劃報告給教育文化委員會所有委員?好的"},{"start":3981.874,"end":4008.644,"text":"好,那這一題我們辦公室會再繼續追喔,署長你知道我們已經追很久了好來,下一個,謝謝關於師資的部分那文化部長請回,謝謝李部長關於師資的部分剛剛洪孟凱委員也說了那我就直接講重點,我們來看下一頁在很多的網路社群上我們看到有老師老師是這樣告訴小孩的說同學不要用開玩笑的心態亂選本土語言的語種喔不然後面會產生配客、排客"},{"start":4009.144,"end":4010.325,"text":"但現場的困境是老師是這樣告訴小孩的"},{"start":4025.916,"end":4045.775,"text":"甚至還有說主要直播共學是我們要配合作業學校團隊去協調出來的師資時間還有學校現有的師資就是閩南語這個都是在學生的社團裡面老師直接告訴學生的甚至還有一個小學是語文自由班他們甚至告訴學生本土語言的時間你們不用來上課我們不會排課你們回家自學"},{"start":4046.215,"end":4058.99,"text":"但是因為他是語言自由班的小孩每一個都可以通過相關考試署長你不要問我個別是什麼學校我要講的是在學校的現場不管是實質或者是老師的心態或者是排課的教務人員的心態有非常非常大的問題我們來往下看"},{"start":4061.112,"end":4061.252,"text":"但是……"},{"start":4087.952,"end":4103.759,"text":"我想要問一下教育部有沒有機會聯同客委會、原民會還有地方政府各級學校代表把相關的國家語言師資人才資料庫建置完成讓各地方的排課的老師、校長主任"},{"start":4104.139,"end":4121.332,"text":"他們在需要找人的時候他可以透過這個資料庫去做一個媒合的可能性甚至真的有心讓這些有心想要從事國家語言教學的老師他也知道他透過跑校跑班他可以到更多地方去發揮他的影響力關於人才資料庫這個部分會不會有困難"},{"start":4123.107,"end":4134.818,"text":"其實現行就有那只是在剛才委員講的幾個例子中我們來稍微看一下剛才有三格那三格裡面現行就有但是到底發生了什麼問題對所以我們要跟委員稍微細講一下但時間的關係也不允許我這樣細講是會後可以到委員辦公室再就一些脈絡跟委員辦公室"},{"start":4140.523,"end":4164.637,"text":"首先回到剛剛那三個,高中的部分如果排課的話,他排直播共學他是要跟直播共學團隊有600多個老師到800個老師足以還有259個直接可以線上之外還可以實體教學的老師所以看起來人數也是有的,語種也是有的,然後媒合機制也是有的可是通常教育部的政策到的地方一定會產生一些問題那這個部分我們就一起來努力好不好"},{"start":4164.997,"end":4179.705,"text":"所以如果人才已經資料庫有了我們辦公室後續也會持續跟國教署討論好那這個部分署長請回接下來要請文化部長謝謝文化部轄下有非常多相關的管所會透過國家語言活動的補助資源去辦很多活動來看一下下一頁"},{"start":4181.126,"end":4210.226,"text":"目前你們這些規劃是這樣文化部各管所提供多元國家語言服務文化部這些管所依照自己的屬性區特色結合新興媒體這個是文化部一直在做的事情好下一頁那我們這在相關的活動裡面看到有臺語錄的朋友他們給我們相關問卷說在活動現場說好了是國家語言活動的現場不是華語活動的現場臺語活動講故事臺語活動做戲劇臺語活動做說的演出結果大部分的人"},{"start":4210.706,"end":4232.89,"text":"在講台上的人在做活動的人他甚至不會全台語他可能只有部分使用台語不管是老師的部分下一頁或者是助教的部分下一頁或者是志工的部分都有遇到這個困境我相信在台語推動或是台語使用上一定有很多年輕人或者是甚至跟我年紀差不多的人也不見得真的可以這麼流利的使用台語我想這個困境我們都認同而且我們也都知道現場有這樣的困境好下一頁那到底我們可以怎麼做我們就問了"},{"start":4239.051,"end":4262.028,"text":"文化部你們在相關的活動補助裡面還有沒有其他的增能的政策協助這些第一線的人因為我們不能去質疑我們也不要去罵第一線的人做錯了我們問一下我們可以為他們做什麼下一頁結果你們給我們的回覆裡面我們發現你們談你們辦了很多活動你們也補助了很多錢你們很多管所做了很有特色的事情我們都認同而且我們也肯定文化部很努力但是我們發現沒有專業人力培訓機制"},{"start":4265.39,"end":4277.879,"text":"甚至這些有心想要上場的講師或者是做戲劇的人他們自己也知道自己的台語不夠好或是自己的客語不夠好自己的原名語不夠好那他們到底可以做什麼文化部可不可以更有角色協助他們"},{"start":4281.989,"end":4298.426,"text":"市長,我們在第一年推動各館所辦台語活動的時候的確因為失智的來源或是我們的語言信任不夠我們在他們的語言使用比例上只希望他們盡量用台語可是沒有比例上的一個要求"},{"start":4298.786,"end":4312.843,"text":"所以在第二年我們下一個年度執行的時候現在會逐步的要求這個台語一定要達到一定的比例可是要怎麼達到這個比例我已經提醒的所以我們會鼓勵我們的同仁或者是這一些應該來的師資課程他們可以去上語言課程"},{"start":4316.407,"end":4340.454,"text":"沒關係,至少跟你分享一個比較簡單的案例也許我們會讓第一線的基層同仁不要這麼辛苦不要常常很多立法院或行政院政策搞到第一線的人仁養馬翻我們來看一個案例這是國立歷史博物館他們要做相關的策展之後內容都出來之後一、館方會提供所有展覽文字當然是華文由專業的人士翻譯為臺語文並且錄音讓工作人員學習有關的用字跟發音再安排研習課程讓導覽人員閱讀臺文版跟臺語的表達"},{"start":4344.195,"end":4350.279,"text":"提供標準版,讓現場導覽的人﹑至公的人﹑或者是講師有相關的對照參考也就是說case by Case如果我今天有這個展我就加強這些內容的學習透過一個一個的策展透過一個一個的活動累積我的母語使用能力我覺得這可能會讓現場的第一線工作人員感覺良好一點也就是我們不是逼他無止盡的上課不是逼他"},{"start":4369.172,"end":4369.772,"text":"我們接下來請林倩琦委員"},{"start":4407.108,"end":4407.929,"text":"請李部長、李政事、彭署長"},{"start":4425.407,"end":4431.312,"text":"我們負責原住民的原民特教組組長孫組長跟原民會的邱副處長"},{"start":4440.114,"end":4441.495,"text":"首先原住民語言已經是國家語言"},{"start":4460.936,"end":4474.845,"text":"在今天報告裏面原民會在國家語言發展法的推動成效裏面也指出第一條原住民語言是國家語言這是確定的而且這個部分是在國內外重大活動當中會呈現政府公職人員就職宣誓裏面"},{"start":4479.048,"end":4479.088,"text":"進行專題報告"},{"start":4499.104,"end":4521.971,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":4522.451,"end":4534.435,"text":"教育部,你們有這個我不知道怎麼唸,所以不好意思放上去Test of Chinese as a Foreign Language那你們可能叫托克弗勒再麻煩你們跟我說你們到底怎麼唸我們那個年代都考過托弗去美國的人那麼去英國的人就考了ELSE"},{"start":4539.537,"end":4562.328,"text":"那歐洲的語言認證你可能要過這個DELE、DELF等語言認證所以我在這邊跟大家分享一下也就是你既然是國語了那國語的國際化應該是下一個階段我們要推動的重點所以國際化怎麼推動呢本來有這個很直接的那個經驗我在2015年去考了法語的那個DELF"},{"start":4564.73,"end":4577.465,"text":"2016 2016年考DEF A-DE這個就有點像教育部你現在在推的這樣一個華文的系統然後在2018年我去考了西班牙文的DELE A-UNO"},{"start":4578.633,"end":4601.472,"text":"我一直還沒有機會再往下考那我跟教育部這邊這個是法國跟西班牙它的教育部發的全世界通用而且它是很正式的一個政府發的系統那也只有這麼一個你丟掉也就沒有了所以你必須要認真的保存這一份文件所以它這個文件裡面在成績的部分"},{"start":4602.333,"end":4618.802,"text":"下一頁成績的部分呢他告訴你你每個聽說讀寫的程度在哪裡成績在哪裡那我把我的個人資訊先劃掉那另外呢再接下來那認證的這個內容他就告訴你你來自哪裡然後你是誰然後你的相關資訊那你通過了這個認證那在西班牙文是這樣子"},{"start":4623.804,"end":4630.292,"text":"竟然是由文化部來統籌那接下來究竟是要由教育部還是文化部我覺得這個部分可以請你們去研議那這個讓大家都有機會"},{"start":4642.006,"end":4665.657,"text":"文化無國界所以有興趣的不僅不管是臺灣的原住民認證或者是我知道很多朋友都考不同語言的原住民認證他們也考得很有興趣大家都在學這種不同的語言我們也給國外的人士有一個機會但是這個機會當然裡面有很多細節要去處理所以我們有一些待解決的事項"},{"start":4667.017,"end":4689.107,"text":"帶解決的事項就是第一個拼音系統然後我們知道在原住民語我們目前比較能用的叫做羅馬拼音當然有很多的拼音系統那International Phonetic System也是可以用的我本期就是學這種但是羅馬拼音其實是我們的一個文化脈絡那不管我們用什麼樣的系統只要讓大家能夠了解那我想就可以推動"},{"start":4689.927,"end":4710.577,"text":"但是系統的問題連華語都還沒有解決那我不知道那個教育部相信你們應該有個華語的一致性讓有興趣來考的人能夠針對教育部的系統來學習所以他可以得到那一張認證會議後我還是希望你們告訴我你們那幾個字到底怎麼念所以幾個問題我們待解決的一個是拼音系統的問題"},{"start":4711.297,"end":4736.866,"text":"然後再來是原住民族光是在臺灣這個教材教具環境的匱乏那更遑論我們未來要推廣給全國然後推廣到全世界那最後一個是師資待解決我想今天很多人都提到師資那這個我想確實是在語言的推動上很重要的一個問題但是如果我們把這個範圍擴大我相信這個部分也是有機會來做一些補足的所以第一個拼音系統"},{"start":4738.246,"end":4755.761,"text":"我相信現在在社會上還是存在就是這個漢語拼音跟通用拼音那不管大家要怎麼用比如說我到全世界都叫做我叫林倩琦那我那個倩琦就會碰到這個拼音系統的不同那不管誰怎麼認識我那個比如說大陸可能用X我也不知道他用Q就是倩琦這兩個字在"},{"start":4758.923,"end":4761.565,"text":"接下來是不是有誰可以來協助我們一下那下一頁"},{"start":4785.138,"end":4806.855,"text":"這個是羅馬拼音我們先不要管他什麼意思那是不是有人可以不知道是袁明慧還是文化部的次長我們要測試一下還是那個彭書長這無所謂對錯啦無所謂對錯不知道大家這個有哪一位願意還是我們要袁明慧的副處長來跟大家分享一下這應該是阿梅語是是是因為我不是阿梅語"},{"start":4807.295,"end":4817.642,"text":"那羅馬拼音啊?你們應該是用羅馬拼音嗎?中英的部分可能會跟阿美語原來的中英的部分不標準。是是是。按照他我認識的那個拼音符號,他就﹝中英的部分可能會跟阿美語原來的中英的部分不標準。按照他我認識的那個拼音符號,他就﹞"},{"start":4831.037,"end":4850.653,"text":"接下來大概是這樣子的一個概念這個當然是有些問候語跟問話你會不會主語你今天好不好然後你家怎麼樣所以這個系統我們知道是文化拼音那我可以請教你一下LOMI後面那個標點符號標在那邊那個ART後面這個標點符號它的重點在哪裡那個問號問號嗎不是標點符號那個LOMI"},{"start":4859.744,"end":4881.942,"text":"一片再來按他那個應該是指他的喉舌音啦喉舌音嘛應該是喉舌音好那各位我也不想在場有幾個人能夠念出喉舌音那各位這個是羅馬拼音那我們如果知道他是羅馬拼音系統那這個標誌我請會裡面要確認就是我這樣講是待會我要講的那個教師的部分我在這邊先提一下當你們考到這個高級、優級"},{"start":4884.744,"end":4902.106,"text":"就有族語教師反映說每一年的那個標點符號都不一樣欸去年這樣子可以今年這樣子不可以那他們無所適從那我相信你們知道的問題就是我們16種語言47個語系嘛那今天阿美組好了可能是男士阿美當考官結果他說秀姑娘阿美你這個逗點不對"},{"start":4902.907,"end":4908.27,"text":"接下來我們要講就是教具、教材還有環境教材目前應該是9階那我就建議大家可不可以納入多元的教材、歌謠的教材那可以在原民會裡面"},{"start":4926.879,"end":4941.392,"text":"包括語法會還有原文發展的部分一起來做原住民跟歌謠是不可分的如果我們照這樣子念其實很多人可以學個架構但是精神、邏輯、概念、文化學不到"},{"start":4942.493,"end":4956.77,"text":"議員其實是當然把某一些部分系統化了可是卻有一些部分涵蓋不到第二個部分是增加影音的工具那很多族語教室的反應就是他如果要教大家什麼叫檳榔葉他要從他家裡去撿一個掉在地上的檳榔葉然後拿到這個"},{"start":4959.112,"end":4959.492,"text":"最後呢我們講那個"},{"start":4987.882,"end":4994.784,"text":"教學師資年齡上我們知道65歲你主語教師雖然你們大家說現在主語教師已經專職但是呢很麻煩的是主語教師其實65歲以上也就沒辦法再教了那我們知道大部分的語言其實很多其他老師可以傳承的就算現在在教室現場"},{"start":5009.608,"end":5029.385,"text":"我們都常常要齊老來協助那如果你把齊老都排除在外當然他可以做支援教師但是如果今天有人在65歲以上那還有這個能力而且能力是很好的話你難道要把他摒除嗎這個部分可能要討論一下因為我們失智都不足了然後再來族群我們是不是要公平發展比如說像少族500多人"},{"start":5032.667,"end":5056.294,"text":"世界的多元性就不在於多寡所以它500多人現在族語教師的缺乏然後你要叫這500人通通都要來學這個嗎?我看也是很困難那所以少族的人數那這些人他們的族語教師這個要很清楚的檢視那我們等級16族42個體系那我們什麼時候可以有比較公平的優質"},{"start":5060.16,"end":5080.119,"text":"我剛才講那個最優那個等級的老師那這個是不是請各部會能夠來研議一下那最後是語言的分配正義最重要是我們也是要拯救兵為的語言那我以前就碰到那個有人跟我說欸我都說台語你還可以跟我說為什麼我叫做某一某族這樣子"},{"start":5080.84,"end":5106.094,"text":"他可能語言都不見了可能只剩下記點所以我們鼓勵大家來參與這樣怎麼講呢我以前學德文的時候我問德國老師說你為什麼會來台灣那時候台灣只有九族他跟我說我來研究賽德克族賽德克族那是哪裡來的然後他說這是在泰雅族裡面某一些雅族當時他的回應是如此外國人比我們更清楚台灣的語言體系所以"},{"start":5106.954,"end":5123.468,"text":"我們推動國際認證的這件事情是不是應該趕快做所以當有一些濒為的語系或者是他只剩下一句話的族群或許有人可以救回來那當然很重要的是我們的主管單位是文化部就如同那個部長所講的文化"},{"start":5124.309,"end":5124.689,"text":"謝謝,感謝各位"},{"start":5153.664,"end":5155.586,"text":"李遠部長、彭婦媛署長、邱文龍副處長"},{"start":5181.319,"end":5196.571,"text":"首先我就教育李部長政府從111年的7月那為期5年的時間投入321億推動國家語言整體的這個發展方案那我們希望能夠來改善各種的國家語言瀕臨失傳的一個危機"},{"start":5198.032,"end":5212.897,"text":"並推展各國語言的文化歷史及美但經過兩年的推行我想在實務上遇到了一些問題非常值得文化部、教育部以及原民族這邊我們大家共同來討論看到問題解決問題根據國家語言發展報告當中指出"},{"start":5219.179,"end":5224.882,"text":"原住民語16族42語列平埔族國語臺灣閩南語客語還有閩東語臺灣首語等等我們有這麼多種國家語言的範疇跟種類在裡面但是為什麼現在我們舉辦民眾認證考試只有客語閩南語跟原住民語那其他的部分我們都沒有打算這麼做部長可以回答嗎"},{"start":5247.656,"end":5272.853,"text":"我真的不太懂沒關係不好意思在那個認證的部分剛剛委員講的目前就是客語、原住民語跟台語那至於其他的語言的認證因為我們還在跟像包括手語或者是盲主語在認證的部分他們團體認為還沒有辦法制定一個所謂認證的標準可是並不是不做還在研議中"},{"start":5273.393,"end":5294.081,"text":"好,那我希望這個演繹我們要有一點進度不能因為現在沒有做我們就一直放在那邊用演繹去取代了我們不做好不好那我想這個部長還有這個彭署長我想我們從這個閩南語認證考試的制度的部分我們來觀察一下我們的本土語言的課程其實在這個可能那個彭署長"},{"start":5294.841,"end":5314.776,"text":"就是在111年我們納入了這個布定課程我們看一下時間所以呢這個110年跟111年我們看到認證考試的報告我們看一下這個倒考率還有通過認證人數來做比較可以很明顯看到有受過布定課程教育影響的那大概是在7歲到18歲的這個學生族群"},{"start":5317.478,"end":5339.508,"text":"但是他參與認證的人數、到考、通過其實這兩年來都是不升反降這個數據在這裡那這個到考的這個下降的人數報考的人數跟通過的人數這個數據在上面我不再贅述我們可以看一下好那你說我這是110年到111年那據本席了解112年我們有做一些認證制度上面的一個調整"},{"start":5340.789,"end":5365.694,"text":"不過今天我雖然沒有把它這個表列出來但是我們看到我們在112年的認證的地方本期看到的數據上是這樣我們雖然把它分成了就是兩次來進行報告人數的大大的提升但是在112年跟前面兩年來比較那不管是我們的報考率我們的通過率其實逐年還是在下降沒有提升這是第一個那第二個我們發現"},{"start":5367.154,"end":5390.822,"text":"反而是有參與布定課程本土語言這一群學生們那他對於這個認證上面這些數據那都要比沒有參加過布定課程相關教育的這個30歲到60歲的族群來講其實低非常的多那這個數據上面我也請部長這邊可以稍微看一下那特別是我想提一下我們看到在這個110年我剛剛提到的"},{"start":5394.483,"end":5416.65,"text":"三十歲到六十歲的報名人數通過人數都比七到十八歲來多那通過人數在一百一十一年一百一十年是一千三百八十二人但是一百一十一年這個差距擴大到兩千兩百七十六人所以我們看到當我們把這個本土語言納入課程之後那並沒有在這個這個族群裡頭去做增加這是什麼原因啊 署長"},{"start":5420.779,"end":5420.919,"text":"請陳班堪說明"},{"start":5452.6,"end":5469.551,"text":"我們講結論大家努力其實我都有看到也予以肯定但我們要用結果論來推我們在努力的方向上有沒有需要調整跟加強所以在112年我們有調整那個制度但是我們看到整個報考的人數是有往上尤其剛剛說的布定版課程的這些族群7到18歲"},{"start":5471.172,"end":5490.027,"text":"可是他報名14711個人最後通過只有5148人那我們的通過率跟到考率看起來也大概不到五成那但是我們沒有受過不定教育課程的這個族群30到60那反而我們報考率到考率以及通過率都可以高達八成多"},{"start":5491.048,"end":5513.326,"text":"我想這個數據我們要去看一看我們既然本土語言課程納入了這個不定的課程裡面去了孩子們都有去學習了何以這個成效拉不起來我覺得要去思考這件事我希望會後教育部這邊誰負責的給我一個報告那這個報告同時也是我們大家可以去研討以後怎麼去做改進那從這個數據上來本期要講的是什麼我想跟李部長一起"},{"start":5514.026,"end":5528.988,"text":"就是說我們雖然把這個本土語言課程納入了這個不定課程範圍內可是沒有提升原因是什麼其實本席認為語言這種東西環境很重要環境會非常重要那我想其實像本席我自己是這個在眷村長大"},{"start":5530.429,"end":5546.124,"text":"雖然我的爸爸江西過來的老兵我媽媽是雲林人我們眷村裡面大部分都是爸爸外省人媽媽各省人台南、彰化雲都有但是那個時代背景我們都不太講台語我記得我還沒有出社會之前台語我一個字都聽不懂"},{"start":5546.684,"end":5562.121,"text":"因為我覺得我也用不到,然後我從小生產環境也沒有,後來呢是開始我開始就是接觸這個選舉以後啊我記得我還鬧過一個笑話,那時候我去卸票,我跟他們講說,謝謝謝謝,這次選舉的時候,你們有幫我倒幾次,然後他們就一直看著我選舉,我沒有選舉,我選人啊,我知道不是選舉,所以部長是選誰?"},{"start":5572.467,"end":5593.327,"text":"對嘛,你要跟我講,對不對?那再來我就跟他講說,謝謝謝謝,你們都是我的政客什麼政客啊?不是,他說是什麼客?條仔客所以台語會有發現,其實這個台語喔,真的這個文化其實非常美,語言也非常美,但是過去我沒有那個環境所以今天我舉這樣的例子就是說,我們做了很多努力,但是部長"},{"start":5594.028,"end":5604.82,"text":"我想這個跟文化有很大的關係我們要怎麼去營造這個環境讓不管是台語、閩南語也好或者是很多的這個我們要保護的國家語言的種類怎麼樣這個環境部長有想法嗎?"},{"start":5606.474,"end":5623.143,"text":"主席委員你說的很對喔我如果站在我的孫子跟孫女的學校接他的時候已經很多人總算是跟父母親講英文了講英語我真的嚇一跳因為現在的父母親更年輕的一代他讓孩子完全進入"},{"start":5624.524,"end":5624.925,"text":"講英語的狀態"},{"start":5643.399,"end":5649.007,"text":"我想這個部長我想這個文化部對於國家語言發展喔112年編列了17.25億113年編列了17.19億喔那但是我們看到執行的狀況很差啊用不完啊錢好像給太多了喔"},{"start":5659.74,"end":5680.84,"text":" 112年,這個也還一成多沒有用完。113年呢,到現在為止用也不到四分之一。時間過了四分之一,然後我們的預算用不了那麼多。我想我們現在預算冰了,是不是應該要好好的使用,讓它發揮到最大的效益。那這點請部長回頭的時候去看一下這個預算執行發生什麼樣的問題。那接下來我想我請教一下邱文龍副處長。"},{"start":5681.841,"end":5700.952,"text":"我們現在除了閩南語認證少之外原住民的認證同樣有這個問題就是說這個參與人數、通過人數、報考人數其實都是逐年在下降的那我想我們現在在推行這個原住民語的認證但是是不是失智不足還是環境有問題為什麼越推人越少"},{"start":5701.912,"end":5720.948,"text":"根據原住民語言我們看起來42個語列文化部2023自己的報告指出聯合國科文組織說臺灣有5種語言被評為極度危險塞夏語、盧凱語是嚴重危險另外有9種語言是脆弱等級這一再顯示原住民有許多語言可能會瀕臨四川這個問題非常嚴重副總長怎麼看"},{"start":5726.077,"end":5726.298,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":5746.158,"end":5760.071,"text":"好,這一點我想這樣,我把問題點出來,請副主長回去我們仔細研究一下好不好那最後因為還有一題需要一點時間就是我想也請教一下,我想教育部啊從111學年,就是我剛剛提到我們實施本土語課程嘛"},{"start":5761.552,"end":5783.184,"text":"但是我們發現師資不足這件事情大家都發現很嚴重在111學年度不管是在職培育學士後教育學分班還有第二專長學分班我們看到實際招收的學生數都低於核定數那這個問題其實蠻嚴重的而且本席把他的這個師資列了一下我們除了閩南語大概有14993位老師跟教職人員剋予5305位"},{"start":5789.367,"end":5806.435,"text":"原住民語只有2075位臺灣俗語更只有1233民東語只有69位所以師資上今天我聽署長講說其實算夠的但我們看到是不是都集中在這個閩南語跟客語的部分其實客語也不算夠所以師資上面我們應該怎麼樣讓它都能夠足夠"},{"start":5809.656,"end":5809.936,"text":"怎麼補救這個部分,署長能不能說明一下?"},{"start":5832.059,"end":5847.453,"text":"首先跟委員報告一下,十字構我們是全縣、全縣市、各縣市每個學校都去盤點所以我們這個不是看總數而已,也看各地、各校第一個,第二個,剛才直播共學的效果我們會分兩個面向來講第一個,直播共學它要撮合媒合的那個老師這邊的數量跟相關的教材"},{"start":5854.5,"end":5854.62,"text":"好,這我們會處理"},{"start":5876.857,"end":5893.699,"text":"我們繼續加強多面向啦那最後我想再給我一分鐘的時間喔因為這個問題啊是我們這個李部長的問題也是很多爸爸媽媽阿公阿嬤的問題喔那也就是說我們現在孩子其實算幸福嗎也幸福算辛苦嗎也辛苦喔"},{"start":5894.119,"end":5913.1,"text":"如果我們要在國語還有其他的相關語言包括我們剛剛說的很多的本土語言然後還有我們現在英語政策也要上路了那現在已經不是雙語了孩子們要學習多語那剛才也有提到其實雙語政策的上路會不會排擠我們的本土語言這是第一個問題第二個"},{"start":5914.782,"end":5931.145,"text":"我們看到教育部編列的預算當中111年到113年本土語言投入46.8億但雙語政策我們已經總共投入了110億所以光預算投入是相當不均等的那怎麼樣做才不會產生剛剛李遠部長跟他孫子的狀況"},{"start":5933.62,"end":5957.78,"text":"剛剛第一點在課程上大家都有自己的時數所以我們特別有排了必修的本土的那個時數所以時數上他是被保障的第二個他投入的這個資源委員上次也跟你們報告雙語那邊會多了一點是各地方需要有外語這樣的一個資源那外語實質這樣的一個資源他們佔了滿大的一個成分但事實上就"},{"start":5958.601,"end":5983.695,"text":"投資的面向從課程教學教師跟相關的教材相關的因應上這兩個語言都非常受到行政院還有總統高度的這種重視謝謝好我最後講我希望在我們本土語言上尤其真的我們的這個每種語言都非常的美都有它深厚的文化歷史背景怎麼樣去均衡不要被這個雙語政策上路之後產生競合的關係甚至消滅了本土語言"},{"start":5984.235,"end":5984.936,"text":"接下來我們請柯智恩召委"},{"start":6008.32,"end":6033.748,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請我們的李遠部長跟我們的彭署長,謝謝好,有請李部長、彭署長兩位好,那個部長你說你是自己是外省的第二代的客家人你都在很短的時間當中被迫去學會臺語因為老師都用臺語教書嘛,沒錯吧而且你還說你常聽文夏的臺語歌聽不懂也會自己編歌詞所以表示你的台語不錯吧"},{"start":6034.948,"end":6042.232,"text":"但是你的客語可以說嗎?客語不太行,其實我剛才特別提到語言就是這樣子我小時候跟我的阿嬤是要講客語的,不像我萬光光的因為後來我們到學要講國語,後來我的環境是老是用臺語講課我必須學臺語,所以我剛才一直講語言是一個我瞭解我瞭解,部長我跟你說我到7月以前我又不能講國語因為整課,很多整課的大家都講台語,我到7月以前"},{"start":6063.223,"end":6063.903,"text":"來 部長 你要看滿遠啦"},{"start":6092.555,"end":6095.338,"text":"高中的閩南語課本,看見沒有?看見沒有?這是我們隔天的閩南語課本,看見沒有?"},{"start":6112.555,"end":6121.7,"text":"請二位議員登記現在他們已經煮好一大鍋的菜包括九天的什麼?九天的什麼?煎蛋啦!我煮香腸的吃不完現在又怎麼樣?烏鷺每道菜都好吃他們這麼高興叫我炸兩包兩包怎麼樣?快點倒三天"},{"start":6142.386,"end":6142.546,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6170.452,"end":6172.673,"text":"這就是我們國中的閩南語。署長、部長,你說這樣小孩這樣可不可以學黑?這樣臺語,寫在下面。這下面一個,這我就不可以讀了。這就是貝卡、這是貝比、這是很多人認同的。它下面還有註解,我們往下看。各位我們來看一下註解。好,我們來看下面就好,勾結。部長撕奶,他的註解的撕奶是什麼?"},{"start":6200.319,"end":6200.639,"text":"這個就是我們學臺語的方法"},{"start":6211.368,"end":6215.471,"text":"蘇長跟部長,如果你花這麼多錢來告訴我這是我們學台語的方法,你說我們小孩怎麼會學呢?所以每個難怪會認為,如果這是他們在課堂裡面所學的在那個範圍裡面,難怪很多人就把它當作是一個營養的課程,就不太去好好去上。我完全贊同,我們往下看,這是完全告訴大家的。"},{"start":6231.582,"end":6245.972,"text":"我完全贊同我們現在目前為止要把語言學好而且要讓一些這個語言快要消失要去振興我都很支持但是你們用的方法花費了321億包括這個層面來說我們到底得到的效果是如何我覺得這是我們今天要討論的外媒林委員他常常在選舉的時候他都在說台語他人的國家語什麼真的是偶細沙啦"},{"start":6255.098,"end":6262.023,"text":"這是成效很不好的緣故嘛就表示你有這個錢但是你沒花在包口上面我們一一來審視來我們往下所以呢你看你的閩南語語言的認證已經超過15年每一次的認證考試我說實在的兩次的考試預算就花了我們一億多"},{"start":6274.382,"end":6278.023,"text":"委員 認證的部分我先請部裡的主政單位說明一下待會我把剛剛你講的那個教材我跟您補充一下"},{"start":6303.729,"end":6323.159,"text":"很快,我們還有其他的跟委員報告,因為其實基本上辦理有關米蘭語語言認證基本上就是要鼓勵我們更多的孩子或是民眾去參加一個語言的一個檢視的一個我同意啊,我就告訴你檢視的基礎來說的話通常阿公阿嬤跨八點檔連續劇,可憐可咖赫啦像很多的我們台灣為什麼像韓語這麼流行"},{"start":6324.54,"end":6328.181,"text":"李遠部長你可能要知道為什麼這麼多現在年輕人去學韓語因為他們對於韓國的流行文化他們K-pop他們太喜歡他們就非常的很有動機性的去學習你如果每一次你要推廣這些東西然後訴諸於剛剛不要說那麼多原住語言這是把錢沒有花在包裹上這是我們要去審思的好不好那我只是說你做這些認證讓孩子是否有沒有辦法那這個東西就是在109年是文化部所辦理"},{"start":6350.589,"end":6354.25,"text":"就算以我來說我跟我父母親交談的比例可能我講台語可能有50%我看一般的時間好像爸爸媽媽講台語我好像這樣講話可能是40%我用台語跟別人講我好像孩子講話可能只有21.5%所以你三代流失的比率是非常高的這就是"},{"start":6369.136,"end":6375.679,"text":"文化部當初所做出來那你更不要做看其他原民會的代表到這個地方不管是原民會的原住民語言或是等等當你跟父母講話可能比率是最高跟你的配偶可能就會降低再把你這個語言傳承給你的孩子的時候他的比率流失的比率就會更大"},{"start":6387.905,"end":6387.925,"text":"給我10秒"},{"start":6409.173,"end":6435.408,"text":"語言的學習它不是一年就能夠完成所有的學習所以它是累積的因此它在小一開始一直到國中有兩年等等等等它是累積的這種內容這種教材第二教材的內容融獲我們可以再持續的精進第三它裡面的學習從拼音開始學它的內容的安排盡量是以比較生活的這件事如果有人檢視那個內容我們可以再去"},{"start":6435.848,"end":6447.151,"text":"你的解釋、你的語言你光是用這樣的語言就增加我非常多的認知、負荷、洗料你洗料我光是要知道那個say那個字我都不知道他是在說什麼我還要在國語完之後你還不如給我翻成這個部分我還可以看到這個文字我可以直接翻成台語所以你與其要補助你還不如補助阿公阿嬤啦我說說實在的阿公阿嬤開始要教孩子講台語最大的來源啦你同意吧"},{"start":6462.475,"end":6470.002,"text":"所以這個行政院的這個計畫不是只有教育領域而已是整個社會包括像這個廣播甚至相關節目都一起來努力但是這個才是一個教育部最需要的好不好改一下你還羅馬拼音層那個簡直是無字天書我覺得這個東西都是我們在學語言當中非常大的部分接下來我還要問嘛"},{"start":6485.416,"end":6492.299,"text":"更令人擔心這應該是回到我們的李遠部長這最能擔心的還是我們的原住民還有客語然後呢部長你今天說把臺語變成主流我也同意啊在我們高雄、屏東、臺南臺語總是主流啊但是其他地方怎麼辦還有你剛剛也是把馬祖語變成我家鄉很多金門人他說我金門的金門語是怎麼看不是我國家語言對吧所以你說這個對其他的語言這樣是有點公平嗎部長"},{"start":6514.198,"end":6537.316,"text":"其實台語變主流我好像沒有說吧我沒有說這個話在台灣用台語的人口真的比較多當然是比較多啦我只是強調我們講了這麼多你只要把國家語言擺出來每一個族群都會認為做得還不夠但是我覺得最重要的部分是就像部長也同意嘛動機是一個問題嘛"},{"start":6538.277,"end":6540.399,"text":"當每個人都在提到我們要拯救他們的時候我們現在所做的很多的方法"},{"start":6554.935,"end":6555.075,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":6580.808,"end":6585.17,"text":"已經不足了而且你108課綱是108一月公布但是呢你把國家語言列為不定課程是課綱完全完畢之後你又塞進來的所以你會造成很多人在這個課程的發展的程序上面硬要把這個塞進來會很多的授課族還有包括很多的整個課程是打亂掉的不是嗎"},{"start":6603.268,"end":6605.189,"text":"但是署長你的空間很顯然跟第一線的老師的認知是完全是有一些落差的"},{"start":6630.004,"end":6658.374,"text":"這就是第一線老師所反映你不應該在完之後因為配合的一個政策之後然後又給我更好看這款欸更好看這款真的不知道要說什麼話欸所以說我覺得是如果是以這樣的部分裡面既定的部分的程序我覺得你應該考量第一線老師的一個想法用什麼樣的特別的方法而不是一個政策出來當你覺得有點至愛難行的時候你應該用各多的彈性的方法而不是直接加進去一個禮拜學一次然後又給我們這樣的一個課本"},{"start":6659.574,"end":6669.568,"text":"我覺得不管對學生我們同意要把這些大家都要談自己的母語可是用這個方法來學習母語我現在告訴你即使一年五年花了300多億目前為止這個成效還是有待討論的你同意吧"},{"start":6674.28,"end":6693.031,"text":"這個還是要持續精進不管就課程、私自教材甚至整體活化它的像金潤式的學習或是社會的支持這個我們一起努力還有最後我要請求部長就是對於你五年花了三百四十幾億各族群當中你花的錢的細項到底放在哪裡包括是認證還有包括你的一個細項請在一個月之內給我每一個經費的評分的一個部分我要充分了解"},{"start":6702.737,"end":6708.762,"text":"謝謝主席,有請文化部李遠部長以及交流司紀東洋代理司長"},{"start":6730.578,"end":6746.18,"text":"好有請部長跟司長部長早安我已經說過你是我的偶像我就不再說了今天這個主題國家語言發展法很重要那我也先稍微說一下AI會是我們非常重要的"},{"start":6747.421,"end":6751.586,"text":"5月22日質詢時曾向您反映我們政府機關內部好像有這個超人特工隊所以我們今天的主題就是超人特工隊2"},{"start":6765.544,"end":6769.626,"text":"臺灣管的阿龍已經被證實當然我們也覺得有負責是不錯但是希望這件事情不要再發生但是我們還有另外一件事情另外一個超人事件其實目前還想要瞭解一下後續的處理情形"},{"start":6788.135,"end":6813.533,"text":"就是這個巴黎文化奧運臺灣館的主視覺一次抄襲了Apple Emoji那上一次質詢的時候我們就要求文化部要針對這個Emoji太過於類似蘋果的這個所謂表情符號法律授權的問題要在一週內以書面回覆現在一週的時間已經過去請教一下部長巴黎文化奧運臺灣館的主視覺Emoji是否已向Apple的法律部門請求授權"},{"start":6821.153,"end":6827.965,"text":"暫時委員有提出質疑之後雖然我們的設計師不認為他那個算抄襲但是為了"},{"start":6829.369,"end":6858.007,"text":"為了這個問題他重新設計了而沒有另外收設計費新的那個設計圖案我想會有提供給這個委員看完全不像了我們這裡得到的回應說本案設計是全新繪製不需要授權然後也再請教部長文化部回應本案為全新繪製就是說他只是說這個是我自己畫的我沒有抄襲如果你覺得很奇怪的話我就重畫一個這個真的我覺得這種方式我們還是要來了解一下"},{"start":6858.928,"end":6885.576,"text":"他說這個圖樣是全新繪製因為我們記者會已經開了我們已經公布這個設計了如果我們以後所有的設計師都畫完開完記者會大家說不滿意那我們重畫收回我覺得這件事也不是這樣我先確認一下設計師有沒有提出創作過程的證明說他是創新他是全新繪製或者請公正的第三方對本案進行抄襲鑑定有沒有"},{"start":6892.229,"end":6906.139,"text":"我想上一次質詢的時候部長就有說阿龍事件不要再發生因為不要去單方面的片面相信彩信廠商的說辭但這一次我們好像又來相信廠商了那我們再來看一下"},{"start":6906.94,"end":6922.018,"text":"文化部對於設計理念的說明說文化部表示設計理念在世界通用的表情符號語言導入臺灣的W串聯在一起創意的核心是開創運用表情符號的新詮釋而非創作表情符號我幫您翻譯一下"},{"start":6922.879,"end":6938.668,"text":"文化部的意思是這個設計案的創意不在於畫表情符號而在於運用表情符號上一次質詢您的時候您有一個回答說如果可以你會自己畫一隻貓一隻狗我基本上是這個眼淚已經泛在眼眶都快要掉下來真的是覺得非常感動"},{"start":6939.568,"end":6967.54,"text":"但是我們現在文化部對於這個設計的回答說它是一下又說它的重點在於畫在於運用一下又說設計者自行繪製然後等到自己有點搞不清楚狀況就說反正他會重做一個然後不收錢我要再次強調這一次我提出這個案件的重點是表情符號表情符號的圖樣是有版權的如果想要使用就應該要依法律程序請求授權"},{"start":6968.18,"end":6980.144,"text":"如果有使用就大方承認有用要參考就大方承認有參考對文化部來講尊重原創的精神其實沒有這麼困難結果我們得到文化部的神邏輯一本正經的去講說兩個愛心疊在一起就是原創那我想"},{"start":6986.326,"end":7002.025,"text":"就是說那我兩個賴清德疊在一起就屬於我的原創嗎那這樣正好解決台灣管的問題啊他們根本白道歉啊一隻阿龍是抄襲兩隻阿龍疊在一起就變成原創這可能會在台灣設計界或全世界的設計界投下一顆震撼彈"},{"start":7003.266,"end":7008.189,"text":"要確認喔 這真的不是這樣 我想先確認一下因為這是我們得到的回覆啦當然後續的處理是後續處理 我們待會兒會提到那我們先講這個是一個精神的問題我們文化部要帶頭尊重版權 要有版權意識我們也要有原創的精神跟意識我先確認一下 因為我們今天這樣的對話都會影響臺灣未來的這些設計公司做設計人員原創的參考嘛"},{"start":7030.763,"end":7038.986,"text":"請部長回答一下,兩顆愛心堆疊在一起,如果是學別人畫的,把兩顆學別人畫的愛心疊在一起,符合您所說的原創精神嗎?給您看一下,這是文化部的回應。其實我回答不了,因為我跟不上他這個所謂moji這個東西算不算,你可不可以回答。"},{"start":7051.869,"end":7055.971,"text":"我們上次已經比較過了這個是高度相似於Apple系統的Apple系統的Emoji是有版權的"},{"start":7072.677,"end":7098.875,"text":"大家現在直接拿出iPhone來你弄一個愛心出來就是長這個樣子如果我們單純使用一個愛心的話那當然是各個有各種不同的版本設計師是說他的創意的使用的方法那這個部分我們是接受可是我們也跟他提到說這對於一般社會大眾來講他還是會有一些誤解的地方所以設計師就說那我們就從在同樣的概念下他會重新設計"},{"start":7099.616,"end":7115.503,"text":"好 謝謝您的回答這不是對一般大眾而已蘋果是現在市值全世界排名第二的公司我們是要尊重蘋果認定我們的筆業的手勢筆愛心到底是不是有"},{"start":7116.763,"end":7133.513,"text":"嚴重的參考了它的圖像的設計建成的設計這個回答對臺灣的設計界非常的重要堆疊在一起就可以你剛剛有說啊單獨使用一顆就沒有問題那使用兩顆呢難道就可以排除抄襲的可能就不用確認授權嗎"},{"start":7135.114,"end":7147.404,"text":"最後再來我想問那文化部出資到巴黎設置文化場館希望利用巴黎奧運的機會宣揚臺灣文化我們用這樣子emoji用這個筆頁就代表臺灣文化了嗎?好您有微笑我們就當作理解我們就往下其實這還真的只是一個開場而已我們來看還有一個更嚴重的問題我們其實我這真的不知道要怎麼問下去"},{"start":7165.008,"end":7173.592,"text":"這個案子哪個單位主責的?文化部交流司兩度以書面回覆本案是文化部以臺法文化交流專案這個專案破譯喔補助財團法人臺灣文化基金會再由基金會去辦理這個設計案"},{"start":7181.957,"end":7208.004,"text":"回覆的原文我直接放在頭影片請在座的各位看看財團法人臺灣文化基金會結果我們依據了回覆的結果我們翻遍了所有的預算書跟這個公務單位的這個資料完全查無詞彙最後我們只能懷疑有一個名字相似的由王詩詩次長擔任董事長的財團法人文化臺灣基金會113年度文化部以公務預算補助該基金會3500萬"},{"start":7211.425,"end":7220.258,"text":"文化臺灣,結果你們回復我們是臺灣文化到底文化不是遇到詐騙集團還是誇張到連自己補助哪一個財產法人都搞不清楚請部長回應一下好不好"},{"start":7223.256,"end":7251.456,"text":"據我了解這是等於是我們的文化部另外設的一個基金會就有點像我在台北市的時候我們的那個文化局有另外一個文化基金會是是是 這個基金會我們知道我們想要問的部長不好意思打斷您我們想要問的是明明是文化台灣基金會結果為什麼來韓回復我們都是在講台灣文化基金會到底是文化部忘記了還是害怕想起來"},{"start":7252.136,"end":7271.709,"text":"我們立法委員所知竟然公然回復錯誤的資訊文化部的官員有沒有需要對此負責我們真的是不想要把這種什麼什麼黑箱啦什麼國會調查權去套在這件事情上那這個這是什麼樣你能不能回應一下這有沒有人需要負正式責任呢這個看起來是我們的錯誤啦就是在回話中"},{"start":7272.971,"end":7294.472,"text":"連這個都寫錯公文寫錯我承認這個錯誤還真的不是只是一個單一事件我們發現我們問了說標案金額多少何時何地開標為什麼是這個廠商得標結果越問越令人害怕文化部竟然沒有辦法清楚回答任何一個問題整個開發流程充滿令人毛骨悚然的感受"},{"start":7295.453,"end":7309.365,"text":"根據文化部教育部長的回覆這個主事決案因為採購金額未超過公告金額150萬是由文化臺灣基金會自行尋找兩家廠商比價事情又很剛好兩家廠商一家報價148萬500元另外一家139萬9千元最後價低者得標"},{"start":7315.991,"end":7317.052,"text":"請次長講一下因為平常你講我搞不懂這個"},{"start":7347.238,"end":7351.001,"text":"文化部本身是以身作則的,你們低於150萬的,你們也公開透明。"},{"start":7365.811,"end":7382.603,"text":"但是呢3500萬的文化基金會錢過去了他們就可以低於150萬就不用公開我們也很想知道啊那150萬我可不可以拆成10個拆成20個那通通都不用公開啦先在此請教部長可不可以要求受文化部補助捐助的財團法人必須落實政府資訊公開的責任比照文化部"},{"start":7387.726,"end":7401.081,"text":"將每一筆標案列表公布於網站上您預計多久可以完成有沒有機會我們市長是這個董事長基金會董事長市長也是這個基金會的董事喔您預計多久可以完成這部分的討論我們先按照那個財專法人的規定辦理"},{"start":7406.255,"end":7433.841,"text":"好 謝謝這個希望能夠有回覆主席對不起我再借一個時間因為這個7月多就要去法國巴黎展現在已經6月初了我們還是要趕快來搞清楚不然的話也不希望這個展出不順利都希望順順利利這一次最後關於本案的處置文化部提供說設計師主動表達修改主事節的意願而且還強調不加收任何費用我先講我自己以前在設計學院教書我看到這個案子破譯"},{"start":7434.921,"end":7452.984,"text":"破譯的專案包裝門面只花一百萬百分之一的預算我已經替這個設計師覺得很難過替設計界覺得很難過結果現在出了問題設計師要修改還不加價不給錢或者他還要這樣不知道到底是他怎麼樣就是說不用修改修改不用錢"},{"start":7454.405,"end":7480.331,"text":"對此我要表達 文化部應該作為表率 帶頭表達對創意的尊重如果有民眾表示疑慮 文化部應該要主動釐清整個創作過程只要文化部可以證實此案是原創設計設計師完全不需要修改主視覺設計 我們要挺他但是相反的 假如本案經證實 可能涉及過度參考或抄襲那也絕非設計師主動修改設計就可以解決我們記者會也發了 新聞稿也發了"},{"start":7482.893,"end":7496.231,"text":"國際的發表也發了各種破文也po了事關國際的聲譽我們就要採取補救的措施我們到底要跟廠商續約還是解約也要追究啊或者我建議文化部直接去函跟蘋果公司的法務部門確認這個案子到底要不要經過授權"},{"start":7499.215,"end":7499.495,"text":"我上次跟這個部長有分享過"},{"start":7517.35,"end":7534.441,"text":"我看了這個潮浪群雄小莊的這個漫畫提到明記當年就是非常支持年輕人非常支持原創我們要保護跟扶植創作者這個案子破了一億百分之一來做包裝跟設計結果還出了這麼大的問題我們絕對不能承受半點風險我們只剩下一個多月的時間希望部長在此案的後續處理一定要明快"},{"start":7541.306,"end":7550.874,"text":"才能夠透過巴黎奧運的機會讓全世界看到最好的臺灣好不好再次謝謝部長我們一起為臺灣提升能見度做努力謝謝好謝謝謝謝好謝謝謝謝葛如君委員和部長秦暉我們在郭鈺勤委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘好我們接下來請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":7569.071,"end":7572.432,"text":"主席 請文化部李部長好 有請李部長部長好委員好"},{"start":7589.537,"end":7606.872,"text":"前陣子有許多臺灣藝人到中國表演的時候對於政治局勢做表態當時也引起了軒然大波到現在還是很多民眾在關心那當時文化部這邊有回應說這種事情絕對不會發生在民主自由的臺灣這句話本相予以肯定就是我們文化部這個態度"},{"start":7607.953,"end":7628.014,"text":"但相對來說過去我們都認為說透過文化音樂的交流可以增進中國人民對臺灣的認識進而了解並尊重臺灣的不同但是從這些表態的事件來看事情不是我們想的那個樣子部長你認為我們對於這些不屈服的表態或是他表達守護民主自由的這些業人是不是應該給予鼓勵?"},{"start":7629.814,"end":7654.137,"text":"當然當然因為我覺得今天我願意來當文化部長其實第一個就是希望改善整個臺灣的文化生態包括電影、電視、文學、繪本、戲劇我們投注了比過去更多的經費包括我這兩天還跑去拜會國家發展委員會跟他爭取更多的預算其實就是希望臺灣本身"},{"start":7654.938,"end":7669.914,"text":"的文化人也好藝人也好他可以在這個地方就得到了一個表達表演的機會而且台灣相對於中國他的差別在於各種題材都是非常自由的非常自由的各種題材"},{"start":7671.695,"end":7671.915,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7693.353,"end":7694.975,"text":"我們的國家提供給這些藝人包括文化創作者一個自由的安全的空間讓他們可以自由的去發揮"},{"start":7709.355,"end":7720.32,"text":"但是我們是不是可以再用其他怎樣的方法讓更多的臺灣藝人或是世界各國的藝人願意站在守護民主自由的臺灣這一邊例如說我們是不是開闢節目或者說讓我們的藝人有更多國際的舞台的這些空間呢我們文化部是不是有思考過怎麼樣去做這樣子的規劃"},{"start":7730.565,"end":7748.066,"text":"我們現在有很多預算是用在國際合作希望我們的演員我們的戲劇可以出去然後他們也可以進來投資所以目前我們跟過去最大差別就是我們每一部電影或戲劇都有兩三個國家在合拍"},{"start":7749.942,"end":7763.663,"text":"謝謝部長其實我提到這個議題並不是預設仇中的立場是希望說國跟國之間是需要互相尊重各自安好但是我們面對中國在不管在國際的會議上、賽事上各種不合理的打壓我們還是要有我們自己的志氣謝謝部長"},{"start":7765.605,"end":7789.006,"text":"接下來請教部長媒體有報導說嚴家幹紀念協會 召職8年前以修復故居為由由文資局出面向臺銀無常借用臨近的兩處古蹟來綻放文物並且已經二度的續借之後仍然拒絕簽出那文資局這邊有回應說是陸續都有溝通那針對說古蹟遭到戰用無常戰用這個部分請問目前溝通的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":7791.468,"end":7811.254,"text":"好 這個已經八年了但是距離我們修好還有兩年半然後文資局必須跟臺運繼續借他的那個自由之家然後來擺他的文物文物大概有一兩萬件所以我們現在的角色是第一我們要保護那些文物"},{"start":7811.974,"end":7825.904,"text":"第二,我們要趕快地做資產活化第三,我們要尊重所有的人民可以早日去使用這個地方欣賞這個地方而且回憶歷史對,謝謝部長您的回應這也是我今天質詢這個議題的重要就是說我們什麼時候對我們這個古蹟保存的這個我們該做的努力跟我們什麼時候可以開放給民眾參觀這個事宜這也是攸關民眾的權益那我們還有兩年半剛剛部長您說還有兩年半"},{"start":7841.676,"end":7842.496,"text":"我是不是請文資局的局長來跟你回答因為這個案子已經做了8年了"},{"start":7866.432,"end":7881.13,"text":"報告委員就是關於自由之家跟大同之家我們借來之後還是善盡保護古蹟的責任所以我們裡面的清潔維運也都是照我們的古蹟的標準去做維護那至於說那些標準都是公開招標"},{"start":7882.761,"end":7894.725,"text":"我沒有質疑說它是不是公開招標,我是說既然它標到了這樣的標案,那它裡面維護的狀況如何,進度如何,什麼時候可以開放給民眾參觀,那是不是會後你給我一份書面報告好不好?"},{"start":7899.037,"end":7910.93,"text":"這個部分我要提醒那文資局竟然已經認定是國家的古蹟那應該要很積極的來辦理相關的事宜那不應該由協會長期來佔用希望 希望說文化部跟文資局這邊可以你們這個正視這個問題"},{"start":7914.414,"end":7920.818,"text":"會後要給我報告接下來關於深層式AI的規範我要請教部長本期中去年就一直很關心深層式AI在文化藝術方面它應用所產生相關的問題從深層式AI發展以來已經迅速的在各個領域的都很大方面的在使用之前有歌手使用AI創作想要參加進取獎的爭議之後也發生了美術比賽的參賽者使用AI創作這個情形"},{"start":7943.27,"end":7958.076,"text":"顯見AI使用及需相關指引規範但是從本期上期質詢之後：文化部一直到5月13日才發了一個《文化藝術應用生成式AI規範策略的規劃藝文採購案》所以文化部是現在才開始研議嗎?而且這個履約的期限是到明年114年5月我們還有一年多的時間到那個時候我們才能提出生成式AI的規範嗎?部長"},{"start":7971.481,"end":7972.385,"text":"請次長回答,因為這個問題真的是蠻複雜的"},{"start":7975.958,"end":8004.097,"text":"謝謝委員的詮詢因為的確是上次委員有提到我們這個生成式AI我們該如何規範包括他能不能參加我們的金曲獎這些獎項的一個資格的問題那我們在目前為止我們是先拒絕AI生成所的作品來有參展資格這個部分先確認可是未來AI的發展因為我們現在國科會他們也正在擬定所謂的AI發展法發展基本法那我們那天有溝通說應該會"},{"start":8005.638,"end":8010.861,"text":"跟國科會這邊然後還有我們這個委員會一起來會議因為我們這個規範的這個標案我們到114年5月等於還有一年的時間你們才能提出相關的規範那好在提出我們這個相關規範之前我們能不能先有指引因為其實整個AI的應用發展是越來越快速越來越廣"},{"start":8028.43,"end":8049.427,"text":"那專家也指出說現在我們很難用肉眼來辨識藝術作品是不是AI的創作之外呢這部分我們文化部也要所因應啊那未來在相關的關於藝文比賽啊文化部這邊你們要如何協助評審去辨識是不是有AI使用的這個狀況你們如何協助有指引可以先給這些使用者跟評審者有這個依據嗎"},{"start":8052.889,"end":8062.035,"text":"委員的這個交付我們來研究看怎麼樣提早做出指引的部分讓縣市政府或者是各級舉辦活動的時候可以好謝謝次長就是說在我們規範正式的"},{"start":8065.168,"end":8086.236,"text":"公布之前這個指引要先有讓相關的單位可以有一個參考的依據接下來就今天的專報來就叫我們部長根據文化部的國家語言發展報告顯示民眾在小時候第一個會說的語言是臺語但是調查也顯示說目前40歲以下使用臺語的人口聽跟說的能力已經剩不到一半"},{"start":8086.676,"end":8091.218,"text":"其實台語的源流是隨著年紀也快速的增加也已經到明顯的面臨傳承這個危機尤其是現在的孩子因為他們長期比較有機會去接觸到像抖音這樣的短影片不要說台語了其實日常的一些國語的生活用語都已經慢慢被取代"},{"start":8104.403,"end":8127.53,"text":"那部長也說這個抖音裡面有一些短影片其實也是認知作戰的一部分這個代表文化部你們這邊也有發現就是說國語及台語的流通是潛藏著危機那部長我要請教說文化部目前有沒有研議任何措施來強化國語及台語的使用及傳承那有沒有跟教育部這邊來研議說如果防止日常用語漸漸被取代這個現象我請市長回答"},{"start":8134.735,"end":8152.5,"text":"總檢討"},{"start":8152.76,"end":8173.174,"text":"因應網絡社群媒體或影音媒體的能夠更多的製作臺語類的節目讓大家接觸臺語的機會越來越多那在接觸臺語的時候我們當然希望它在內容上使用的就是一個比較正規的傳統的臺語的智慧而不是因為我們現在常常講台語的時候其實是用華語來反映台語不是用本身台語以前的用詞所以這部分我們在補助的項目裡面"},{"start":8182.721,"end":8205.313,"text":"其實像您說其實使用台語環境非常重要除了接觸台語其實要有使用台語的機會就是使用台語的機會那目前我們國家語言發展報告裡面也將台語列為有傳承危機就是有明確的危險的本土語言平常我們在菜市場買菜日常生活中可以發現使用台語的主要的人口其實是真的也是比較年長的民眾"},{"start":8206.454,"end":8226.098,"text":"甚至可以發現說到2歲到3歲從開始學講話到30歲的這些年輕人對台語的使用其實使用度非常的低甚至聽不懂或是聽了都還要一知半解因為我們現在講的話我們可能馬上講了聽到就知道是什麼意思可是聽台語他們還要翻譯一下還要嫩一下就說把他轉譯過來所以說"},{"start":8228.879,"end":8232.061,"text":"這個部分剛剛講到除了說我們有接觸台語我們要有機會去使用它那我們目前台語業務的推動用文化部跟教育部這邊共同來負擔那業務其實分散在兩個部會而且是沒有負責就是專責的負責的單位那其中文化部這邊負責台語相關的部分是人文及出版司"},{"start":8251.751,"end":8264.896,"text":"但是人文及出版司的業務也很繁雜而且主要的業務應該是放在出版所以說有學者指出應該設置一個臺語事務委員會來專門推動臺語相關發展的業務部長您覺得呢?您認同嗎?認同啊,因為我們目前就是朝著先要成立一個像多語言發展的一個文化中心"},{"start":8276.301,"end":8299.131,"text":"所以部長您也認同說是需要一個專責在語言發展的這個單位來專門負責我們雖然把那個任務交給那個出版跟人文師可是我們的經費是下到每一個單位尤其是台語台他佔了我們比例非常高但是委員剛剛講的很有道理我們會成立一個總管這個台語專責的單位對對對"},{"start":8301.111,"end":8312.255,"text":"其實本期這邊是要提醒文化部臺語是列為明確危險的本土語言那對於文化部這邊你們在推廣這些臺語業務應該要針對年輕的族群來制定推廣的方案而且我們每四年有一個國家語言發展報告我們要藉由這個發展報告來審視推廣的成效那所以部長你也認同就是成立臺語事務專責單位"},{"start":8327.441,"end":8346.175,"text":"那也請你們盡快來演繹說這個單位如何來組成那如何來推廣好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝陳秀寶委員部長請回那我們接下來請郭玉琴委員在郭玉琴委員諮詢完我們休息五分鐘有請文化部部長好 有請了李部長"},{"start":8359.87,"end":8373.506,"text":"委員好部長好所以剛剛我有特別聽到這個國家語言研究發展中心這個即將會成立一個等於是一個平台一個統合的一個單位會將來做一個跨部門的一個協調非常重要的一環"},{"start":8375.067,"end":8375.087,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":8405.008,"end":8408.623,"text":"在法定上已經有一個進程我請次長報告一下好嗎?好"},{"start":8410.711,"end":8435.14,"text":"跟委員報告那個語發中心的設置條例我們其實原本108年109年我們已經送了三次到行政院那去年也曾經進到立法院好通過行政院了然後進到立法院因為續期不續審的借期不續審的原因所以我們今年度在5月31號我們已經又重新的函送了行政院那現在行政院審查過後就會再發到我們立法院這邊來那再請我們"},{"start":8439.662,"end":8442.384,"text":"我們也期待,因為文化這種東西尤其是語言,你如果變成是阿姆你說,其實很快就會被記起來"},{"start":8463.742,"end":8463.783,"text":"主席"},{"start":8482.583,"end":8490.009,"text":"我們來看一下其實這個國家語言流失的部分其實還是蠻嚴重的尤其是我們來看一下下一張幾乎都超過了五成超過了五成那包含就是跟爸爸媽媽我剛剛講的跟爸爸媽媽講台語的時間還是跟爸爸媽媽講原住民的語言的時間或者是跟我們自己本身的有時候我們在跟我們的另外一半在講話的時候其實有時候我們也不太會用到台語"},{"start":8512.005,"end":8512.185,"text":"總統早安"},{"start":8537.573,"end":8554.463,"text":"我想我就目前為止我們看到的本土語的教學的部分在學校的第一現場碰到的我所聽到的我所接觸到的甚至接觸了一些陳情的一個部分他們第一線反映給我的一個狀況不管是來自學生還是來自老師"},{"start":8556.443,"end":8575.388,"text":"許多的學校他們要不就是找不到老師要不就是這個政策下來很好可是問題是到最後實行的結果是有一段很大的一個落差尤其是在找不到老師的這個部分我講以高中本土語的師資來源為例我們講的是實體授課的一個部分來講他們當然是以這個在職的教師兼任或者是所謂的教職人員為主"},{"start":8582.89,"end":8605.664,"text":"那這個教職人員他是用所謂的這個中點費外聘的人員那通過一些認證那當然就可以來做這樣教學的一個動作了但是問題是要通過這個認證是不是門檻很高是不是真的比例上能夠通過認證的人其實真的不多那這個部分是不是國教署我記得之前好像有開始要慢慢稍微放寬這個標準目前為止反應如何"},{"start":8611.129,"end":8624.626,"text":"委員報告那去年大概教學支援人員大概有五千餘名那麼今年已經有八千多人所以在人數上是很明確有成長增長了大概超過百分之五十"},{"start":8626.488,"end":8644.457,"text":"然而這裡面他的教學可能還要一點真能讓他真正在面對孩子或是班級教學的時候不是只有靠語言能力還有要靠他教學以及導引學生有興趣的學這一點的真能我們會持續來努力講到了一個重點了學生為什麼要來學就是怎麼樣去誘發他們去學習或者是應該是說去找回他們原本"},{"start":8654.242,"end":8655.983,"text":"這是台語的部分我們在講到所謂的原住民族的這個教學的部分那更是有這樣子的一個問題因為他不是只有認證"},{"start":8678.789,"end":8700.138,"text":"相對的來講好像他們也找不到授課的老師所以後來我知道在去年的時候有說好像只要是身份認證是齊老就可以來做這個教學那這個現狀是真的是這樣嗎但是對於齊老的這個定義到底是什麼他的這個定義教學的這個定義有沒有明確的一個規範"},{"start":8702.9,"end":8724.822,"text":"稍後原民會的副處長也可以一起說明原則上原民的水準他要要求到優級高級跟我們講的中高級不一樣他是要到高級所以相對有人反映就我們有聽過因此我們在直接來幫忙的過程中用兩個比較特別的方法"},{"start":8725.162,"end":8725.382,"text":"我們找到最棒的"},{"start":8743.404,"end":8743.684,"text":"但我還會細節的去了解"},{"start":8770.862,"end":8791.487,"text":"百分之百有沒有到實況上是學生選的都開誠這個我會詳細的再瞭解我可以看一下這個表其實我們大概可以看到目前其實從國小、國中以及高中跟老師的師生比所以其實包含我們舉例來講像是原住民"},{"start":8792.307,"end":8812.02,"text":"的這個語言他其實一個老師一間學校分配不到一個老師那當然我們不是說所有的學校其實都有這方面的一個需求啦只是說那老師可以想見就是具有教學資格的老師他必須要疲於奔命他也有可能要有跑班的一個狀況"},{"start":8813.242,"end":8827.723,"text":"我想這個師資的培育的部分的確是我們接下來最重要的一個部分還有很多的老師跟我反映說如果班上的孩子他的程度落差太大那對他來講其實是教學信心上的責損"},{"start":8829.225,"end":8846.418,"text":"這個其實有很多的老師在反映這個問題是不是有可能可以變成類似像英文我們像英文其實小學就已經開始在跑班了你的程度是A1你的程度是A2你的程度是A3就可以開始分級分級教學對於本土語來講我想這裡應該也可以納入一些考量啦"},{"start":8847.56,"end":8848.261,"text":"委員會一直管制到8月29日開學前"},{"start":8863.183,"end":8863.824,"text":"接下來我要請文化部長不好意思"},{"start":8882.501,"end":8892.37,"text":"好我們就文化部的這個問題我們可能來討論一下因為在上個禮拜大概前幾天其實本席這邊有接到就是在影視產業的這個專業的人員張廷斐他其實是監製他也做過編劇那他得獎無數那特別來到跟本席來做一個陳情"},{"start":8907.043,"end":8920.722,"text":"他也提到了現階段他們所碰到的一些包含勞檢或者勞災的一些問題那這也是我在上一個等於說在一剛開始我對文化部做總諮詢的時候我也有特別提到"},{"start":8922.044,"end":8942.202,"text":"目前我們知道在2022年的這個時間股的一個事件之後其實我們啟動了這個勞檢的一個制度但是問題是我們沒有針對所謂的影視產業定有所謂的專職專條或者是我們的專章的一個規範也就是說比方說他們可能在外面在出外景的時候要"},{"start":8942.982,"end":8959.291,"text":"所謂的要搭音價但是這個所謂的音價它用的是什麼樣的標準它用的是營造的標準來審核但問題是那個是完全不非常不切實際我自己本身在影視產業工作過所以我知道"},{"start":8960.376,"end":8960.796,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8979.648,"end":9005.604,"text":"我覺得這個部分其實是不是真的要有一些完成的一個修訂不然其實你一直用所謂的營造那一套工地那一套的標準套用在真正在出外景的這些所謂的製作公司他們在拍戲的這個劇組他們在勞檢的這個規章的部分其實有點不公平耶這個部分是不是可以說明一下下不好意思佔用一下時間當然因為我自己我自己也是來自這個這個"},{"start":9008.747,"end":9026.294,"text":"我最近還有去現場看他們拍戲您剛剛講的的確是這個問題我想我們文化部馬上做檢討然後研究一下看有什麼方法來保障這個東西另外其實剛剛有特別提到就是我們宣法委員有特別提到其實520總統就職之後"},{"start":9028.235,"end":9033.518,"text":"其實中國對於他的那雙黑手也深入到了所謂的影視工作產業當中了然後那我們的這個陳沐益大哥他其實也特別有來跟我會面的時候他也特別提到他從得獎之後他幫臺灣的影視產業的工作同仁講話之後或者他表明他的態度是支持這片土地的時候他的工作量就非常非常之少所以這個部分我想我們對文化部長有一些期待"},{"start":9055.231,"end":9079.177,"text":"如何能夠幫助成為我們真的認真在這片土地上工作的影視同仁們成為他們最好的後盾支持他們讓他們有更大的空間能夠展現他們的才華這是我們對您的期許好在這邊也謝謝好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝郭育群委員還部長請回那我們接下來休息五分鐘祝您快省"},{"start":9088.004,"end":9088.044,"text":"多謝觀看。"},{"start":9404.022,"end":9410.205,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會我們接下來請林俊憲委員質詢時間4分鐘好,謝謝主席本期邀請我們文化部部長李部長有請李部長"},{"start":9422.472,"end":9448.339,"text":"部長您好最近最受矚目的英雄人物就是NVIDIA的執行長黃仁勳有一幕我認為印象非常深刻有一個記者用英文來問黃仁勳問題黃仁勳給他反問回去說你不會說台語嗎這個記者才感盲說會不會所以短短幾句對話我想已經透露出"},{"start":9449.531,"end":9451.412,"text":"因為當時沒有國家的調查我是用一些民間的調查還有"},{"start":9475.791,"end":9480.908,"text":"比照聯合國的標準我來判定台語有出現危機一直到2022年"},{"start":9482.677,"end":9512.157,"text":"現在我們文化部自己發表的國家語言發展報告正式啦定調啦第一次官方來聲明台語有危機啦就台語出現危機而且等級是跟客語甚至馬族語是同樣瀕臨危險的程度啦部長應該知道這個事情啦是這都是三級氣條就是說我們在分級裡面就是確定有危險我覺得台語最大的危機就是說沒有人感覺他有危險"},{"start":9513.718,"end":9526.848,"text":"所以我來跟部長報告一直到2022年的現在政府才正式承認了臺語是處於瀕臨危險的狀態你這都你自己知道的啦人家說一個語言就是聽說讀寫嘛但是那個"},{"start":9531.312,"end":9535.937,"text":"臺語的縮讀寫早就很不樂觀了,連最簡單的聽那40歲以上聽到的臺語的90%,現在存多少?"},{"start":9535.937,"end":9541.324,"text":"存47%了,直接腰斬了,40歲以上聽到的臺語的存沒一半了"},{"start":9548.92,"end":9570.084,"text":"但是我剛才跟你說的就是說我們都過去不知道說台語有什麼危險所以你不會去重視我們知道客家有危險我們也知道原住民語有危險所以政府投注很大的心力和資源以國中語言的文化園區我們來做一個參考部長我給你看一下客家文化園區有24個原住民文化園區有30個"},{"start":9575.045,"end":9594.722,"text":"臺語的文化園區有一個,這個又不是你政府做的,這個是民間公益團體自己做的政府一開始幫他補助後來他就要靠自己了請問部長,我們是你啦,我們文化部對臺語發展的有算法多少你自己給我統計,你自己知道嗎?15億15億喔,那有效果嗎?"},{"start":9599.502,"end":9608.004,"text":"每年遞減,就是使用臺語的人越來越少以前另外一個調查,這是民間音樂學者的調查30年前家庭內輸用台語的超過70%現在家庭內,家裡講台語的只有70%這再下去,台語就沒有了"},{"start":9622.329,"end":9630.471,"text":"我常常說他最大的危機就是沒有人敢給他回應所以政府也沒有有成果他還沒到中時還沒到推動到中時啦不要再說我們現在有一些年輕人所以我在建議部長我們文化部應該要參考我們以前在推動的契議部長是客家人嘛我們推動契議推動原住民的這個"},{"start":9651.604,"end":9653.986,"text":"部長,本席要在這裡跟你爭取,到台南"},{"start":9672.121,"end":9697.626,"text":"聽說部長你喜歡到臺南我常常去我聽說部長你說你大概每兩三個月就到臺南我很多活動是跟臺南一起做那表示部長一定也喜歡臺南的一些文化的氛圍和氣息我們台南就有一個很適合的地方現在包括臺南市議員都在臺南市政府經處的就是中廣在臺南之前有一個天馬電台這以前是所謂對肥廣播的"},{"start":9700.066,"end":9722.474,"text":"現在就沒有會議了,現在台灣有一大群人在你親共還在你會議,所以這個電台現在沒有了但是這個土地很大很好,我們應該要把專業設立文化群組,尤其是台語文化群組這非常適合而且這個土地,它的土地使用分區本地就是創意文化專用區"},{"start":9724.154,"end":9733.522,"text":"市政府也有這樣的一個意願我會請台南市政府現在黃偉哲市長的團隊來跟我們文化部請出也拜到部長來聚集這樣好不好部長其實我們已經準備去看了這件事情我已經知道了就是要到天馬電台來看其實我老台南的朋友你如果來看我吃完我帶你去吃肉燒飯好不好我們已經準備去看了帶你去吃牛肉湯好"},{"start":9750.235,"end":9755.298,"text":"其實我經常吃啦!我經常吃啦!其實跟委員講我以前在台視做節目部經理的時候我會八點檔從國語改成台語而且我會把台語改得比較優美"},{"start":9769.426,"end":9769.926,"text":"謝謝林俊憲委員部長請回"},{"start":9798.168,"end":9800.25,"text":"好,我們接下來請張祺凱委員有請李部長部長今天講台語我們會痛"},{"start":9821.706,"end":9825.772,"text":"我們今天來替我們的藝人說一些話我們現在藝人變兩岸的夾心餅乾了變兩岸的夾心餅乾了其實我們一開始一定要對中國喊話叫中國大陸"},{"start":9837.458,"end":9858.596,"text":"不要再逼著我們臺灣的藝人要政治表忠這對兩岸是不好的可是相對我們現在看到臺灣民眾有些看起來是很憤怒東京的人包容也很多這種社會氣氛感覺不大好嘛所以你是文化界的大佬不是要保證而已這事情你要公開喊話怎麼讓我們的藝人不要變成夾心餅乾"},{"start":9860.322,"end":9886.43,"text":"其實我很早就第一次就表態就是在中國的臺灣藝人如果他真的打從心裡是傾向愛那邊的話我表示尊重因為我們臺灣掛五星旗都沒有人在管了臺灣就是這點珍貴如果他是被逼的話我不想譴責他因為我覺得為了市場為了生存而且裡面還有我的朋友"},{"start":9887.31,"end":9887.33,"text":"獲獎獎項目"},{"start":9904.102,"end":9904.282,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9926.747,"end":9934.391,"text":"小野的呼籲所以要包容跟寬容這其實也是蔡英文總統一直在講的沒有一個人要為你的認同道歉 對不對而且他們確實人在屋簷下有些困難那你不要說中國大陸不應該這樣逼著我們的藝人政治表忠可是相對的"},{"start":9944.136,"end":9945.077,"text":"他其實如果這些人回到台灣來"},{"start":9966.735,"end":9991.301,"text":"我不會對他貼標籤我們照樣很公平的有標案有演戲完全正常但是大家情緒的發言可能是因為對回來都是一樣的對對然後我說那個情緒發言情緒的發言可能也要同情他們因為他覺得我們一再的表達善意得不到善意的回應那個憤怒我也理解"},{"start":9993.789,"end":10012.118,"text":"OK 來我們看一個指標性的人物啦五月天的阿信大家現在最關心的就是阿信阿信我去統計喔15年來為了做公益捐款你像高雄氣爆花蓮大地震大家知道嗎十幾年來他已經捐了2億了台灣有多少人比他更愛國也在這邊說了一下我們說他是我們中國人嘛你看那麼多人出征他"},{"start":10021.738,"end":10029.364,"text":"那時候看得是很不捨﹖我們看一下那個走上腳﹖那個我們看一下那張﹖他說怎麼說呢﹖他神隱的網路七天一遙啊﹖他在那個有一天室內啊﹖他用臉書去發聲﹖他說什麼﹖我現在開放帳你們罵﹖那時候你看到這個你有什麼感覺﹖我開放帳你們罵﹖這下一個好事關兩頁﹖結果臉書被灌爆了﹖很多人還講說以後我不信五月天了啦﹖"},{"start":10048.246,"end":10062.795,"text":"其實我剛才還是要強調我們對人不要貼標籤一個人他有很多面然後他過去這樣現在這樣一個人是很複雜的我們不應該他在做了某件事情之後否定他過去做了所有事情給他貼標籤"},{"start":10077.245,"end":10084.385,"text":"那賴清德總統他說啊他說啊人在屋簷下叛國人給以諒解跟體諒最後我要"},{"start":10085.629,"end":10085.969,"text":"其實台灣已經越來越多的華人"},{"start":10113.337,"end":10123.192,"text":"包括電影工作者從香港來台灣然後我們自己本身的能量也很強我必須創造一個在台灣的文化環境更多的經費"},{"start":10124.619,"end":10124.639,"text":"拜訪議員﹗"},{"start":10147.999,"end":10148.759,"text":"謝謝張其開委員部長請回"},{"start":10175.677,"end":10183.324,"text":"好 我們現在請林一請召委質詢好 謝謝主席 有請李部長有請李部長部長好"},{"start":10190.126,"end":10216.284,"text":"相信自從上一次我們的詢答過後直到最近這幾天你一定還是持續接受到有一些批判的聲音那這些批判的聲音從何而來是因為文化部在面對大是大非表現的似是而非而部長回應中正紀念堂該如何轉型的態度彷彿是對於何謂轉型正義 絲毫沒有概念"},{"start":10217.285,"end":10225.708,"text":"文化部也好像沒有打算要承接任何促轉會移交的工作促轉會在任務總結報告中花了整整一整個章節58頁討論中正紀念堂園區轉型的問題所以我還是要請文化部不能視而不見去年3月2日文化部"},{"start":10238.132,"end":10256.588,"text":"就曾從促轉會的手中來承接這個任務進行專題報告當時文化部就很明確的指出中正紀念堂的整體規劃、配置跟設計就是要將領袖崇拜的具象化到實體空間來並透過空間象徵強化個人威權形象"},{"start":10262.873,"end":10279.743,"text":"因此就是說我們怎麼樣將中正紀念堂從這個威權崇拜的標記轉成彰顯民主價值的這個空間這是文化部的任務目標之一喔那可是好根據促轉會的任務總結報告的第三部的第116頁"},{"start":10281.904,"end":10310.328,"text":"國防部早就在2021年就表示說目前的三軍儀隊是依據當時主管機關教育部的要求才派駐的後來中正紀念堂改立文化部國防部仍舊依據主管機關要求繼續派駐換句話說就這個觀點來看有權有責撤離三軍儀隊的單位是文化部所以部長處長會在總結報告中所說的這個是不是事實?部長"},{"start":10311.281,"end":10337.98,"text":"是完全事實對 好 那在上一次的詢答中部長你說三軍儀隊不應該在政權轉移中被移來移去本席是相當認同你的說法那因為三軍儀隊移出去之後就不該再被移回來那好 那三軍儀隊當然也不該被馬戲團化所以我們看一下歷史文件就知道說在馬英九任期內他是怎麼樣羞辱三軍儀隊的"},{"start":10340.582,"end":10368.838,"text":"請部長看看這兩張公文喔2009年的公文第一張是中正紀念堂管理處發給當時的主管機關教育部第二張是教育部依據中正紀念堂管理處請求的發給國防部中正紀念堂管理處請求的什麼他們當時要求要恢復三軍儀隊理由不是什麼一事不一事是要提振觀光這個協助經濟景氣的恢復"},{"start":10369.718,"end":10372.059,"text":"請問部長 這到底是對歷史的無知還是對國人的欺騙啊?"},{"start":10372.059,"end":10372.079,"text":"部長"},{"start":10382.228,"end":10409.673,"text":"我覺得這個理由我第一次聽到就是用光光的理由把儀隊帶回來我覺得更是羞辱了是因為你就必須承認你是對他敬意所以有儀隊還是要去除威權把他撤掉這兩個答案清清楚楚用光光就表示這個問題很敏感他只能用光光的理由把他又回去我倒覺得未來我希望注意得很明快又很清楚這樣"},{"start":10410.273,"end":10437.176,"text":"好那在上次的詢答中因為部長你說現在的國防部已經不堅持一定要派駐三軍儀隊在中正紀念堂那所以本席是不是可以這樣理解就是說目前的三軍儀隊已經像已經死了半個世紀的這個獨裁者所進行崇拜的這個行為現在已經是文化部的責任"},{"start":10439.066,"end":10464.045,"text":"我可能上一次回答委員那時候講了太多很浪漫的歌詞啊什麼什麼事實上我有一句話很重要就是我自己的家族就是我有四個舅舅有三個是白色恐怖的所以最近很多NGO也好他們覺得我好像不認得這件事情他寫了很多信給我一直講其實我必須再講一次我對於中央紀念堂它的威權象徵是完全承認的"},{"start":10465.126,"end":10488.499,"text":"然後我覺得去威權轉型正義我也完全支持的所以國安部如果不堅持的話再來的事情就是要我們跟國安部來溝通這件事情必然是這樣因為我們必須跟國安部溝通甚至於中央紀念館的這個高度是要到行政院甚至於總統的但是我必須"},{"start":10489.893,"end":10490.033,"text":"必須發動溝通"},{"start":10519.633,"end":10519.653,"text":"獲得獎勵"},{"start":10537.663,"end":10557.81,"text":"好 那我們接下來進入今天的主題根據這個國家語言發展法第5條我們中央主責機關就是文化部應該定期召開國家語言發展會議要來研議協調及推展國家語言發展事務那2021年文化部也總共辦理了八線"},{"start":10558.37,"end":10578.609,"text":"總檢討"},{"start":10578.709,"end":10605.669,"text":"你就是說針對臺語的推廣其實我們並不需要像成立客委會或原民會這樣的一個相同層級的所謂臺語事務委員會就是說因為文化部已經有相同量人來處理這個臺語的推廣是這個意思對不對我們現在已經把我們的那個想要設置一個語言中心的條例送到行政院等待立法院所以我們會成立一個"},{"start":10607.443,"end":10628.672,"text":"語言發展中心的意思就是各種語言但是我們因為文化部是負責臺語跟馬祖語跟手語那這個組織要怎麼編我們已經大概有想法好那今天的主題叫自信臺灣深根文化軟實力背後想跟部長討論的就是說我們發揮國際影響力不用捨近求遠"},{"start":10629.932,"end":10629.992,"text":"獲得獎金"},{"start":10646.973,"end":10669.879,"text":"這是一項非常嚴肅的警訊當然這個英文大家都會聽都會講那差在差那個字會量可是英文的文化當然是我們全球人類最習慣最熟悉的文化太陽不過台灣文化就不一樣了因為台灣文化"},{"start":10670.499,"end":10675.746,"text":"全世界也只有台灣人台灣人能夠詮釋到位所以如果台灣文化能夠像黑草一樣湧向世界讓世界認識台灣進而學習台灣文化我覺得這個就是讓台灣在國際舞台上充分展現這個文化軟實力那將來就會有機會獲得豐沛的這個果實"},{"start":10690.923,"end":10708.256,"text":"我們覺得日本就是一個充分發揮文化軟實力的很標竿的國家日本它用它自身的文化以及對它語言的重視這全世界有目共睹日本所開創的IP跟各種文化內容其實這已經不僅僅用潮流可以形容它"},{"start":10709.036,"end":10729.85,"text":"你說像用這個由日語以及日本文化它所灌溉出來的不管是漫畫啦動畫啦電影啦小說或者是電玩的產品全世界共同呼吸的空氣陪伴每個小孩大人的生活的日常所以日本的亮眼的成績我覺得好像是可望而不可及"},{"start":10730.23,"end":10733.653,"text":"但是我覺得不起步當然就永遠追不上那當然還好文化部已經有開始在做一些不管是您剛提到的報告培育台語的那個家庭計畫或強化以示的台語內容或者是用國家語言的這個本土動畫IP的開發等等"},{"start":10749.608,"end":10749.628,"text":"其實﹖"},{"start":10768.749,"end":10798.077,"text":"我自己本身也非常不喜歡把日本動畫配成台語這樣最近我們自己有一部八戒八戒賣得很好它就是有台語版跟多語版多語裡面就是客家語然後三種語言同時出去然後發現的確是各種語言有它自己的樂趣票房也各自有擁有它的觀眾這點我們會從過去未來的電影跟戲劇裡面表達我們的態度這點我可以做到"},{"start":10798.777,"end":10815.055,"text":"好就是說從各個你現在在努力的這幾個面向不我這個台語的這個推廣當然很多的委員都對台語瀕臨這個危險其實都很擔憂所以這個部分真的還請文化部多加強那最後"},{"start":10817.877,"end":10836.506,"text":"我昨天到辦公室有接到一通來電他是一個接受安寧療護的民眾打來的那他想要在有生之年去參加張學友的演唱會可是他也苦於黃牛猖獗所以他也買不到票那他後來其實也是乾冒了這個"},{"start":10838.527,"end":10855.054,"text":"判罪的風險花加倍的金錢買到黃牛票好,文創法的黃牛條款其實已經上路了那對於這個黃牛的掃蕩跟嚇阻我們當然也持續的這個滾動式的檢討中那我想要說的是說無論是演唱會或藝文活動這個黃牛利用粉絲當然的喜愛跟炒作我覺得這個還是持續進行中所以是不是有什麼樣的具體作為或檢討"},{"start":10867.72,"end":10881.41,"text":"再次來怎麼樣去惡煮黃牛的這種行徑在這一次的詹學友的這個演唱會我覺得文化部就展現了一個比較有效果的那個方法就是先斷絕兩萬多個假帳號然後"},{"start":10887.611,"end":10889.353,"text":"在現場也發現有黃牛就是說我們用幾個方式進到去"},{"start":10901.141,"end":10901.341,"text":"部長請回"},{"start":10938.902,"end":10956.362,"text":"好,我們接下來請吳佩奕委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我請文化部部長及教育部、國教署。好,我們請彭署長跟李部長。"},{"start":10962.045,"end":10965.069,"text":"我先請教文化部部長部長好我們台灣是在2019年我們訂定了國家語言發展法那當年為什麼要訂定這個法律呢就是因為我們發現我們台灣有諸多的母語正在面臨嚴重的傳承危機"},{"start":10981.649,"end":10994.241,"text":"因應立法之後我們也制定了國家語言發展方案在這個方案當中有一項很重要的就是我們明定了我們的國家語言包含了臺灣原住民族語、臺灣客語、臺灣台語然後馬族語以及臺灣手語等"},{"start":11000.755,"end":11013.675,"text":"這些是我們的國家語言以及華語然後我們依此來訂定相關推動使用保存的計畫其中有一項很重要就是我們希望不管是在我們的書面使用還是口頭稱呼要來證明"},{"start":11017.065,"end":11039.345,"text":"在我們的國家語言發展方案裡面是有明定的因此我們也 行政院也發了函誓與地方政府要求未來應該要優先使用所以首先我想請問部長今天我們的專題報告除了文化部的報告以外你有沒有看過教育部還有客委會原文明會的報告"},{"start":11040.963,"end":11055.977,"text":"我沒有 我只看到我們自己的好 那麼光是我舉教育部今天的報告來說裡面使用到閩南語的次數是44次而使用到台語的次數是4次"},{"start":11058.305,"end":11062.049,"text":"這個問題其實在立法院本委員會不是第一次提出了2022年的時候當時的賴品瑜委員在實訊當中就要求文化部因為你們是法規的主責單位當然後續的業務分工還有教育部、原民會、客委會但你們是法規主管機關"},{"start":11078.266,"end":11089.495,"text":"當時就要求文化部必須要來督導及協調各部會要趕快至少在公文書至少你們自己使用的公文書趕快來證明了你們自己的公文書都不證明你們發的函字給地方政府誰會來遵守"},{"start":11101.197,"end":11117.83,"text":"當時2022年文化部長前部長李永德也就承諾文化部會來協調相關部會而當時的教育部長潘文忠部長也承諾教育部會開始進行盤點我請問國教署署長今天我們提供的報告裡面"},{"start":11119.636,"end":11129.067,"text":"你們就沒有依照你們自己的含釋沒有來優先使用我們國家語言發展方案裡面要求的名稱證明就應該使用臺灣台語來 署長有沒有發現這個問題"},{"start":11138.028,"end":11156.539,"text":"謝謝委員這件事情一直在行政院裡面有一些協調文化部也很認真在處理我就請問你們教育部你就你主責的部分回答就我們主責的部分國教署負責課綱的部分那課綱的部分剛才有回應報告過書長啊我現在就請問你今天的專題報告內容這一份公文書"},{"start":11162.293,"end":11168.157,"text":"需要來請教地方政府嗎?需要請教教學現場嗎?這份公文書是誰核定的?這一個報告是誰核定的?是!你們有沒有辦法來決定你要使用什麼樣的名稱?有沒有辦法?我就只這一份報告就好了你不要跟我講課綱"},{"start":11184.775,"end":11186.375,"text":"光是這一份報告就可以看出我們現在的問題"},{"start":11207.2,"end":11216.566,"text":"謝謝委員我們部長、你們教育部已經承諾過要來進行盤點有困難的部分我們非常清楚但是可以做的趕快開始做不要再找其他的理由委員提醒的這幾點我們會切開來就能處理的部分來什麼時候完成盤點剛才有跟陳委員這是你們早就要完成盤點的事情兩年前2022年"},{"start":11234.096,"end":11237.637,"text":"你們就承諾要盤點了什麼時候完成盤點兩個禮拜之內可不可以就我們現在你主責的業務教育部主責的業務今天部長沒有來回去轉達教育部主責的業務可以來改進的部分趕快完成其他需要跟地方政府協調你們有問題的法規主管機關文化部嘛有需要報給院嘛大家一起來幫忙"},{"start":11262.796,"end":11269.739,"text":"可不可以做到?2022年的時候教育部長在這個地方就承諾立法委員要來進行盤點已經給你們兩年的時間了你們已經延宕兩年所以兩週之內完成教育部的盤點就就台灣台語要證明使用的部分告訴我們你們現有就可以來協調的公文書不需要協調啦"},{"start":11290.981,"end":11298.792,"text":"就整體的那個是可能兩週內但是就不理的要處理的我們教育會所有的委員一份報告就不理的兩週內應該沒有問題我請文化部長"},{"start":11302.165,"end":11308.746,"text":"所以部長你是新任的部長但我不需要拜託你這個問題兩年之前我們教委會的委員就已經提出來了你們還是法規的主管及管情部長務必後續要去追蹤各個部會我們是不是已經在進行優先使用證明了因為這對我們來說我們政府"},{"start":11324.85,"end":11335.313,"text":"要呼籲我們整體社會一起來肯認一起來投入我們國家正在瀕臨流失的語言的保存使用我們連一份來立法院的專題報告都沒有辦法優先證明了我們如何來帶領社會呢?部長後續請你務必要去追責這一點我會加強"},{"start":11350.083,"end":11366.292,"text":"好,部長也要請問你的事因為今天這個報告對我們來說很重要因為我們立法的目的就是希望看到國家語言我們曾經被剝奪學習的母語有辦法重新的回到我們的生活當中那就文化部所負責"},{"start":11367.273,"end":11368.493,"text":"我請那個有沒有達到你們有限定定的目標好請施展"},{"start":11396.947,"end":11413.884,"text":"委員好這是我們在4月30日收建86件那目前正在審核當中我們在這個禮拜五會開決審會議就是知道會公大概有幾件會議這個我覺得很重要這個簡報上面是我曾經參加一個podcast的受訪那主持人就要求我說這一集我們就全程來使用台語結果呢那個就"},{"start":11417.287,"end":11419.348,"text":"現場就變成他們說叫蔡基互佐因為我這輩我是1987年那一年出生我這輩的台語的狀況就是說在家裡爸爸媽媽都跟我們講台語結果我們從小聽台語都跟他發語這樣所以說我也是從小學一學開始專業一學我才很努力在學習台語所以呢"},{"start":11440.635,"end":11458.162,"text":"文化部來支持我們本土的文化內容、自治來多使用我們的國家語言其實是非常去有助於我們國家語言的推動所以這一個我非常的肯定那也希望我們後續可以繼續來支持那還有除了這個網路影音以外部長"},{"start":11460.371,"end":11470.716,"text":"你也是文化人所以我要問你一個是我自己很喜歡的節目你有沒有看過一個電視選秀節目叫大嘻哈時代我知道曾經在金鐘獎得獎是那你有沒有聽過裡面的幾個嘻哈的創作"},{"start":11478.797,"end":11502.702,"text":"說說看這個節目首先要講第一個我們現場大家都應該要去看因為這是我們文化部補助支持的文化部補助來支持我們臺灣本土的嘻哈創作這個節目不只是因為觀看的流量很高以外後去也孕育了我們非常多的原先已經努力很久的這些嘻哈創作者他開始"},{"start":11503.382,"end":11519.272,"text":"有了他第一個舞臺受到更多的關注後續也出了專輯甚至開始到其他的國家海外去演出其中呢這個第二季的冠軍阿夸麵他後面也出了專輯也開了專場在Legacy World去聽"},{"start":11521.693,"end":11550.588,"text":"那他就是著名的是使用全台語來創作即像是《紅宮少年圈》幾首歌網路的點閱率都非常高當中也有的客語的嘻哈創作者亞皮我們客委會也有來跟他合作他這首歌就是以我們客家的苗栗的一個競典叫做崩流來做創作內容所以這個我覺得非常的好那大嘻哈時代是不是有繼續的要來做第三季來跟我們文化部"},{"start":11551.51,"end":11552.37,"text":"大西亞真的是一個非常值得推廣的"},{"start":11571.915,"end":11572.235,"text":"謝謝吳佩奕委員和部長秦輝"},{"start":11602.705,"end":11602.925,"text":"梁美芬議員"},{"start":11621.758,"end":11646.271,"text":"部長快要午安了辛苦了那剛剛因為林一金委員有問到中正今天堂的事情那我蠻贊同他的看法所以就想到不知道部長有沒有看過那個我們文化部針對那個促轉會解散之後曾經來我們教育委員會去年3月報告的文化部關於轉型正義的三大任務部長有看過那個報告嗎"},{"start":11648.253,"end":11660.751,"text":"我沒有看過但是我大約知道它的方向那您知道那個三大任務就是促轉會解散後那有各部會就歸各部會了文化部關於轉型正義的三大任務是什麼您知不知道"},{"start":11663.259,"end":11680.246,"text":"中正紀念堂的轉型好像是由我們文化部來主責成立一個那個對 中正紀念堂轉型是三大之一另外兩個一個是政治檔案的研究跟人權教育還有一個是不義遺址不義遺址對對對那關於中正紀念堂轉型裡面的方向不知道您曉不曉得就是寫在你們自己的報告裡面我假如沒有記錯的話就是去威權跟去崇拜這兩個方向"},{"start":11689.969,"end":11702.138,"text":"就是去威權然後要讓它變成是一個符合民主人權的那詳細的文字我不記得但是非常清楚就是逐步去威權所以林益勤委員剛剛講的那個方向我覺得如果國防部支持的話"},{"start":11705.981,"end":11706.802,"text":"中文建黨竟然不是皇室的話那你現在繼續有這個三軍一隊那個意義代表什麼"},{"start":11726.124,"end":11726.464,"text":"支持林議員剛講到的部分也提醒部長"},{"start":11748.346,"end":11759.449,"text":"第二點我想問部長因為你們今天報告寫得非常清楚說文化部放在這個臺灣臺語的預算上是15億那想請問部長這個15億是佔文化部的年度預算的百分之多少那非常少我還要算一下市長知道嗎 可以幫忙一下 不知道齁"},{"start":11773.174,"end":11775.96,"text":"因為我們今年預算是298億嘛,然後15億除以298是多少?誰可以幫算一下?"},{"start":11788.251,"end":11813.308,"text":"5%我想如果台灣台語都這麼少客語原住民語應該是更少可是我看到你們的結論說語言是文化的靈魂語言既然是文化的靈魂我們對靈魂的投資只有5%這是不是太低了所以我覺得也希望那個部長可以協助剛剛很高興聽到您在回應林俊憲委員的時候有提到您過去當那個是華氏是不是"},{"start":11813.848,"end":11814.769,"text":"但是我在我辦公室是台語講得最令動的"},{"start":11843.692,"end":11855.804,"text":"所以你可以知道這個臺語消失的世代剛剛林俊憲委員說最後一代臺語人是真的危機很深危機很深 文化部只放5%在語言式文化的靈魂的話"},{"start":11859.528,"end":11880.086,"text":"是不是可以統整一下就是過去10年這個方面的預算然後未來如何逐步增加好嗎我們是政府部門那這個瓶領消失的而且語言有強勢跟弱勢強勢的語言它就是商業能力強你不用規定大家就自己學英語就是嘛"},{"start":11880.706,"end":11905.219,"text":"那弱勢語言就是特別需要文化部花資源而且讓文化部這邊有有趣的材料教育部的那邊的學生就會有興趣學我想這個部分絕對要有精彩的文化作品教育部的工作才能做好好不好那請那個部長可以盤點一下讓我們知道你未來4年的如何逐步增加的報告可以給我們給我一份好嗎"},{"start":11906.199,"end":11924.647,"text":"包括電影、電視其實我們一直在增加中那有個計畫方向像那個我看過的那個魔法阿嬤就非常棒他就是不同的語言然後裡面阿嬤就是講台語然後非常的精彩那大家都喜歡魔法阿嬤現在在作惡"},{"start":11925.547,"end":11927.108,"text":"謝謝部長,那您請回好謝謝那我們請那個署長好,有請署長"},{"start":11945.096,"end":11969.62,"text":"署長,我其實想就教育的來講我們辦公室跟你們所知做了研究之後雙語政策我們師資來源是四年三十億可是我們增加本土語言師資來源五年總計只有十四億多同時師資增加經費雙語政策是國家語言的兩倍這個署長您知道吧"},{"start":11972.038,"end":11975.282,"text":"有些在項目的定義上容我在說明但是我們從兩個計畫的比較來看兩個計畫雙語計畫在111年到112年總共投資不含外資是18億本土元是23億"},{"start":11992.699,"end":11993.78,"text":"雙語政策是家會幾種語言"},{"start":12014.893,"end":12031.266,"text":"雙語,如果就目前看到的可能大家會覺得是英語跟華語但是我們今天報告中有提到沉浸式的那裡面就有非常多比如說有700校在處理的它的那個另外語就是本土語言但是你這個雙語的這個師資沒有華語嗎?雙語裡面就是一個語言英語嗎?"},{"start":12034.889,"end":12036.491,"text":"但是本土語文這個師資是集中語言,你知不知道?"},{"start":12049.718,"end":12068.626,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":12069.166,"end":12095.245,"text":"規劃了30億本土語言你剛講五十幾種我這邊辦公室寫至少二十幾種五年只有14億所以教育部在這個國家語言教育跟英語教育的巨大的資源落差其實我是蠻憂心的那我並沒有說我們要刪減雙語政策的師資那個部分我覺得就是說教育部做了那是一個方向可是國家語言這個部分"},{"start":12095.825,"end":12100.906,"text":"就是說有50幾種語言分享這麼有限的師資的資源真的是目前的一個危機那其實潘部長當時我們在通過相關的法的時候他就已經說了師資是挑戰這是當時的那個新聞那到現在為止你如果去問第一線的老師等等他們也是會告訴你師資不足是很嚴重的問題"},{"start":12121.652,"end":12142.347,"text":"剛剛署長你已經回應好多委員關心這個問題了我就不重複了我只是在講如果把裡面的課語拿出來看因為剛剛我們講了很多台灣台語的課語的部分從17學年起達門檻學校應有課語專長教師至少一人或什麼可是你看到我們"},{"start":12143.228,"end":12151.547,"text":"最近我們找到的資料第一線教師反映學校好像不了解你們通過的辦法這些資訊都沒有積極開缺"},{"start":12153.547,"end":12180.236,"text":"以客語來看至少這個臺灣台語還各縣市開缺一一一到一一二學年度地方政府開缺了39人客語只有新竹縣在開缺只有4人所以請問署長能不能夠解決這個問題相比之下就是就師資的部分就是完全都不開缺只有新竹縣需要客語老師嗎"},{"start":12183.338,"end":12195.669,"text":"委員給我5秒鐘跟您報告一下這個實資的說明他是到117年在課語重點發展區他有一定的規範例如在國中14班以上的要有一個全台灣有12個"},{"start":12198.071,"end":12216.577,"text":"我們怎麼做兩點來做第一點列考核第二點給予獎勵來運用它那麼因為是到117年現在是準備進到113年那目前我們的管制剛剛的4人現在已經進到12人所以在相關的方法上是有效的但我們還是照委員的要求持續努力"},{"start":12217.478,"end":12237.837,"text":"繼續努力至少要讓地方政府知道這都需要的如果連客語大限都只有要求四人那苗栗那些還都沒有看到的話我想這個危機一直都存在那最後呢我想我們針對雙語做了非常多大學生偏鄉陪伴學伴"},{"start":12238.597,"end":12264.805,"text":"沉浸式教學是我們雙語教育要做的那我們針對國家語言發展會議這是文化部主責的其實第8項建議就是沉浸式教學需要誘因那教育部是不是可以比照我們的雙語政策你雖然剛剛說有一點但是我懷疑比重非常少那針對我們國家語言特別是今天我們幾位講到的其實就是台灣台語、台灣客語跟原住民語言"},{"start":12267.386,"end":12284.253,"text":"能夠也發展出大學生偏鄉陪伴、學伴的這些機制讓他的沉浸式教學能夠得到教育部更多資源的一個益助好不好?沒問題,稍微那個方向,謝謝那多久之內可以把這個初步規劃給我們辦公室一份呢?三週內三週喔,好,那謝謝署長,那加油喔謝謝委員"},{"start":12289.005,"end":12293.007,"text":"有請文化部李部長部長好委員好另外一位教育部彭署長可以嗎?"},{"start":12318.186,"end":12319.707,"text":"是歧視高齡者的元兇嗎?這個罪名好像很大"},{"start":12334.324,"end":12352.402,"text":"但是我剛剛看到了一個我們今天談的台語教育占文化部的預算5%但是我們有800萬的高齡者占文化部文化預算當中的0.2%"},{"start":12355.925,"end":12364.923,"text":"如何部長會來看待這兩件事情臺語這件事情5%大家都還嫌少那你這個是"},{"start":12367.984,"end":12387.677,"text":"為什麼輕重當中你的想法是怎麼樣?我回答一下,如果官司從預算看好像0.2很少那事實上文化部的所有的管所、文化部所曾經的表演比如說我們下鄉表演也非常多的阿公阿嬤帶著孩子看我們這樣加起來的預算絕對不只0.2也許在"},{"start":12390.439,"end":12393.48,"text":"應該也是啦 應該也是但是那個叫做"},{"start":12411.772,"end":12415.356,"text":"另外一個就是說我們文化剛才提到文化是一個國家的靈魂那這個靈魂不要太政治化"},{"start":12434.906,"end":12447.123,"text":"臺語非常好,我們家都講臺語,語言非常好,但是語言是生活,不是政治,剛才太多人討論都把它很政治化了。"},{"start":12448.304,"end":12470.295,"text":"另外一個就是因為所有的文化只要跟政治太靠近就是叫做劣等文化了歷代看起來只要文化為政治服務那個時代就像以前的反共八股、解放軍八股那個時代所有的文化做出來我們現在看起來都覺得可笑無比希望我們這個時代所留下來的文化"},{"start":12471.237,"end":12477.102,"text":"嗨,你好嗎?你可以站在那邊,這位是Mark你好嗎?我很好,你呢?很好,告訴我們你的第一名和年齡我的年齡嗎?"},{"start":12496.411,"end":12506.121,"text":"我的名字是Paolo,我25歲。我的名字是Daniella,我19歲。我24歲。我35歲。我31歲。我33歲。我26歲。你認為自己的年齡是什麼?40歲。也許50歲。我覺得30歲是新的20歲,所以我會說40歲。我可能會說50歲。我希望你能給我示範一個老人在街上走路。"},{"start":12530.886,"end":12544.356,"text":"示範一位老人家如何發訊息?一位老人家如何做推動?"},{"start":12554.525,"end":12578.521,"text":"看到這裡因為沒時間這個看起來年輕人都有志異同認為所形容的老人有人認為說40歲是老人有的大概就50歲普遍的共識是50歲啦我們的成語也是50歲就半白老翁嘛算老人然後他們會有這些反應嘛"},{"start":12581.844,"end":12599.175,"text":"現在50歲的在座的有多少人是這個樣子?部長你會這樣子嗎?其實我都70歲了我還可以跟學生打籃球對啊但是為什麼大家這麼有共識這些是從哪裡來的?他們的觀念是從哪裡來?"},{"start":12600.626,"end":12622.051,"text":"其實我覺得我剛才看那個是這個畫面不可思議了不可思議喔對就難以想像那個文化上面對老人或者是對那個歧視是應該回到還是文化我覺得台灣沒那麼嚴重嘛台灣是全世界最嚴重的我等一下會給你看數據好吧OK好"},{"start":12627.804,"end":12652.739,"text":"部長也承認這些年齡歧視來自文化後面有一個文化的背景那這個你怕老嗎?部長你怕老嗎?我沒有怕過,我覺得越老越好越老越好,對你應該把這樣的觀念告訴大家大家都怕老耶所有的企業都要去老化抗老啊"},{"start":12654.522,"end":12677.055,"text":"去勞、抗勞、很怕跟勞參照編,為什麼?因為你可以知道你只要去Google,你把勞這樣子引發輸入裡面那個大數據依附過來的都是什麼?失智、健忘、依賴、體弱、多病,然後這個不管身體有毛病心理都有毛病"},{"start":12678.536,"end":12703.248,"text":"反正老就是一切負面的代名詞事實上很多醫學證明包括諾貝爾的得獎者平均大概有八成八成都在60歲以上都在60歲以上的得獎人包括現在很多醫學證明甚至包括在創意高齡者的創意都比年輕人好"},{"start":12704.264,"end":12718.66,"text":"因為創意是一種神經節的連結它的連結資料庫更多還有很多的策略事實上我們要但是我們一般所想像的不是這個樣子所以我們看起來老是很負面的這應該是來自"},{"start":12720.582,"end":12740.727,"text":"WHO有關年齡歧視當中有提出三項策略第一項策略叫政策與法律第二項叫教育的干預措施第三個就是待接觸的那請問教育部跟文化部有如何去減少年齡歧視的作為問一下教育部"},{"start":12743.863,"end":12769.125,"text":"跟委員報告,其實教育部在有關於減少年齡歧視的部分其實我們會透過有關於代監的一個學習你再大聲一點,聽不到你的聲音我們有透過那個代監學習的這樣子一個機制比如說我們在大專業院校在任寧大學裡面其實有相關的一個代監學習的課程我們是透過大專業院校的學生跟我們的任寧學者的部分去共同學習某一個課程其實我們一直認為說"},{"start":12770.906,"end":12796.603,"text":"我知道,但是我給你看一下,其實這個反歧是要從小做歧每一個年齡層,包括我有三個孫子我有三個孫子,這個念小學的這個,老師叫他他有一天帶了一個畫了一個,我說你畫誰啊他說畫爺爺,拿個拐杖,我說我有拿拐杖嗎"},{"start":12798.271,"end":12824.703,"text":"他說沒有啊沒有為什麼你這樣話他說因為書本上爺爺都會拿拐杖那對這個就是我們很多其實從小的課本當中來這個因為很多資料包括我們現在的繪本當中對老的的描述了齁那這一個以老為主角的齁大概只佔只佔這個多少"},{"start":12827.211,"end":12854.997,"text":"1.69%的老人在這個很多的兒童繪本當中都不重要而且73.74%是負面的形象是老所以包括我們很多老妖怪一定是老的嘛巫婆一定是老的嘛所以有老巫婆然後什麼所以反正老的都代表不所以包括老妖怪什麼這個兒童會強化而且這個變成從小開始植入了以後到一直一輩子"},{"start":12856.91,"end":12874.831,"text":"這就是我們台灣的教科書對高凌哲形象的塑造大概高凌哲扮演的主要的角色都是祖父母父母還有鄉里鄉巴勞還有就是悠閒人士無事可做的"},{"start":12878.318,"end":12887.454,"text":"有關教科書這方面我們會來做個盤整跟檢視提供給出版商來做一個參考跟建議做這樣的回應謝謝"},{"start":12892.283,"end":12905.817,"text":"有關我們現在用大數據如果引發高齡老人的大數據大概會呈現出這樣子如果你談入壯世代他出來的就是時尚質感活動比較符合我們現在的真真實其實"},{"start":12909.244,"end":12930.792,"text":"高齡這就是那個電影現在很多就是壯世代的影片包括前一陣子張學友這個爆滿張學友這個代表就是壯世代產業很多壯世代願意花錢包括壯世代的美學高齡美學啦這個應該是文化部應該去重視的問題"},{"start":12934.165,"end":12947.672,"text":"每一個部會都在歧視這上次已經有講過講過很多次了還是再次提醒這個源頭來自於教育跟文化所以教育文化的確剛才要提到了而且是從小開始"},{"start":12949.451,"end":12964.072,"text":"另外這個不是老人問題這個也提到特別對教育部現在年輕人未來30年就台灣就是全世界最高的這明年畢業的大學生一腳就踏進高齡社會"},{"start":12965.254,"end":12994.614,"text":"這些年輕人30歲的時候台灣一般人超過50歲這些年輕人40歲的時候一般人超過60歲整個年輕人未來的世界就是一輩子活在高齡社會而這已經是被定型化了教育部如果他了解未來的年輕人不管他要做企業、做產業、做服務應該讓他去研究高齡的需求對高齡美學、高齡設計這方面應該是成為顯學希望我們教育體系應該注意到這事情"},{"start":12998.9,"end":13010.617,"text":"教育部、文化部從現在出盤評的作為文化內容投資的設計還有教育部在教科書、在高齡教育的部分"},{"start":13011.826,"end":13032.456,"text":"可否請兩個在兩個月之內提出高齡改善高齡歧視的文化跟教育方面的這些書面報告可否因為這個是重中之重因為先反歧視因為如果停留在這裡我們現在什麼幸福工程大計畫"},{"start":13033.356,"end":13044.372,"text":"那個背後需要的這一些有一千萬的人口高齡者壯碩五百萬包括年輕人這麼龐大的人他們生活日常90%都會碰到的問題"},{"start":13046.479,"end":13063.207,"text":"教育部可以嗎?文化部可以嗎?就是如何在文化部來減少高齡歧視?沒問題,我們都在做了。好,謝謝。那要提出報告。那另外教育部可以嗎?教育部有兩項也沒問題。可以喔?好的,謝謝,謝謝你們。"},{"start":13065.455,"end":13077.718,"text":"好,謝謝吳春誠委員。部長、署長請回。那我們接下來先處理臨時提案。那今天有委員提出臨時提案有四案,我們請宣讀。"},{"start":13078.786,"end":13098.955,"text":"第1案有鑒於《國家語言發展法》第4條整促國家語言一律平等國民使用國家語言不受歧視或限制據該法條主張令提供世界各國人士到臺灣學習中文、臺語之外應將原住民族與定位等同推廣提升國際視野成為外國人士學習及取得正"},{"start":13100.435,"end":13129.341,"text":"認證的重要語言請於3個月內回復立法院教育文化委員會提案人林倩琴、侯孟楷、柯之恩、鄭天才、高金、宿美提案為推動原住民族教育及辦理原住民族實驗學校因完善教學現場各項制度校長領選制度為地方自治權限應與尊重為原住民族實驗學校之校長的調動卻會牽動一個部落推動原住民族教育的希望"},{"start":13129.961,"end":13150.854,"text":"特別在獲得主管機關的籌備經費下．進行各項籌備時的任何調動．將影響課程的實施是否如期辦理．以此為如期推展原住民族教育及辦理原住民族實驗學校．請教育部審慎評估該項困境．請一個月內提出研議報告．送至委員會及原住．"},{"start":13151.594,"end":13177.205,"text":"原住民及立法委員提案人林倩琦、克之樂、孔孟凱、高金素梅、鄭天才第三案為解決長年足與師資不足之困境因修正高級中等以下學校原住民族老師資格及偏要辦法第二條規定需取得原住民族語言能力認證測驗高級以上合格證書之門檻限制因高級以上認證之考試方式與破落及其老脫節"},{"start":13178.505,"end":13200.623,"text":"會在原住民族委員會完善組與認證制度前請教育部先行修正將高級以上合格證書改為中高級以上有中高級以上之證書即可取得資格並參加申選但須在三年內取得高級以上證書不會取得則取消專職師資以比照原住民族教育法第31條精神"},{"start":13201.844,"end":13229.2,"text":"原住民公費生資格需有中級以上證書．畢業前則需取得中高級以上證書．請教育部一個月內提出研議報告．送至本委員會及原住民及立法委員．提案人林慶祺、柯之恩、洪孟凱．高階素梅、鄭天才．第4案．多數族人長年反映．高級以上原住民族語言能力認證測驗之考試方式．與部落其老脫節．"},{"start":13230.44,"end":13258.115,"text":"導致多數勤勞無法操作考試系統及理解命題思維而遲遲未考取到高級以上合格證書於是出現了會說主語的勤勞沒有國家認證沒有教學資格的現象與此請原住民族委員會議院內提出改善報告及經濟措施送至本委員會及原住民及立法委員提案人林倩琦、洪孟侃、柯志恩、高清素梅、鄭天才、薛永斌"},{"start":13259.585,"end":13267.2,"text":"好 四個案子喔 我們從第一個案子來看第一個案子提案人有何說明 補充說明"},{"start":13272.723,"end":13292.353,"text":"這個跟我早上講的那個內容基本上是一致的就是做一個推動然後我們就開始啟動這個推動的一個溝通平台是可是因為第一個案子跟其他三個案子唯一的不同是你沒有寫主責單位你要請誰給你三個月內回覆"},{"start":13294.677,"end":13296.88,"text":"教育部請教育部請教育部"},{"start":13309.497,"end":13312.599,"text":"我們就修正通過第二個案子提案人有何要說明嗎還是直接請"},{"start":13338.473,"end":13362.68,"text":"我們就來配合辦理好,教育部也配合辦理好,那我們就招案通過那第三個案子第三個案子也是教育部喔對,我們也是配合辦理好,那就招案通過好,謝謝那第四個案子原民會我們配合委員的提案做處理"},{"start":13365.364,"end":13366.185,"text":"請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":13400.323,"end":13409.328,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請教育部還有原民會。好,有請教育部彭署長還有原民會邱副處長。好,兩位好。這個原住民族語言發展法,這個我們在"},{"start":13424.629,"end":13444.057,"text":"這個106年的時候在內政委員會審查這個法案的時候我特別在第一條的第一計畫明定原住民族語言為國家語言這個是所有的版本裡面我的條文的第一計畫而且我堅持在審查的時候"},{"start":13445.92,"end":13465.535,"text":"委員會前任主委以將保護主委建議依照行政院版通過而事實上行政院版就沒有這計畫但是我堅持原住民族語言為國家語言當時文化部的代表也認為"},{"start":13466.84,"end":13477.426,"text":"有困難他建議不要列入但是我堅持所以後來內政委員會通過了我的條文然後立法院也三讀通過"},{"start":13478.823,"end":13507.058,"text":"原住民族語言為國家語言很快的客家委員會他也修正客家基本法把客家語言也列為國家語言那文化部在制定國家語言發展法的時候在第三條也明定在臺灣的各族群的語言是國家語言設立了這樣的一個語言就必須要"},{"start":13508.646,"end":13537.28,"text":"我們台灣所有的中文之外的各族群的語言都是國家語言就要有平等的一個對待所以我們現在當然語言就是要傳承而最需要去加強傳承的就是原住民族的語言那我們看這個就是現在的現行條文原住民族語言為國家語言這個是一個很重要的在這樣的一個過程的當中"},{"start":13538.359,"end":13566.615,"text":"我們現在就教育部、委員會要去加強的部分足以老師嚴重不足嚴重不足本席對於這個原住民族教育法第29條各級政府對學生教育及12年國民基本教育階段學生應提供學習足以語言的機會那就要去落實到目前為止"},{"start":13567.865,"end":13591.836,"text":"還沒有落實在這個制定原住民族語言發展法的過程當中我特別要求在條文裡面要明定然後教育部跟園民會後來我經過很多的溝通你們本來尤其是教育部、園民會本來是要透過要有老師資格的才可以當族語專職老師我堅持只要經過族語認證"},{"start":13594.743,"end":13604.915,"text":"就符合原住民族教育法的規定所以通過了這個經過主委認證就可以擔任專職的主委老師但是這個時間111年8月22號的文當時教育部的調查結果是"},{"start":13616.303,"end":13637.58,"text":"三百四十六人的主委老師不足所以我開過很多次的協調會也質詢過教育部、原民會也告訴方法但是請問一下這個目前專職的主委老師目前的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":13639.657,"end":13662.644,"text":"委員報告在111年8月那個時候調查是為111學年那那個時間點到現在已經有兩年快要再加兩年所以已經再增加700位所以有超過當時跟委員報告的數字但是其中專任族語的部分那麼當時是219位現在也超過了到229位那總體而言事實雖然夠可是我們個人"},{"start":13669.066,"end":13692.481,"text":"還有很多學校老師還是很在意他的分配總量是沒有問題還有直播共學也沒問題我們還持續在分配上各地上在注意委員所提示的現象這個議題我從去年一直到今年不斷的質詢不斷的開協調會所以現在到底專職主委老師不足多少"},{"start":13694.551,"end":13694.671,"text":"主席"},{"start":13721.571,"end":13745.887,"text":"專政的部分他也是為了客這個我知道現在事實上還是不足啦持續跟地方政府一起來努力因為還是有我們的小朋友啊他沒有老師他不得不去閩南裔去上閩南裔的課還是有所以這個這個調查不是你們隨便調查的是確實是"},{"start":13749.494,"end":13752.457,"text":"您剛好舉的上面有文號是111年8月現在已經是113年我們繼續努力我們就以剛才你講的時間"},{"start":13767.662,"end":13782.974,"text":"然後在這個時間之後你們增加了多少專職主義老師是是是好的好的對不對這個這樣就知道了嘛是今天下班錢給您喔就是說你們到底增加了多少專職主義老師好那個顏明慧最後一句話這個要徹底解決然後因為這個是也是給我們的"},{"start":13792.188,"end":13793.109,"text":"你把這段時間這兩年辦理的情形"},{"start":13820.009,"end":13829.151,"text":"好 我們再提供給委員好 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員請回那我們現在請張雅玲委員謝謝主席 我們邀請文化部部長好 有請李部長好 委員好"},{"start":13847.274,"end":13866.082,"text":"部長好,就是說因為我們今天在討論就是國家語言研究發展中心這個設置的一些問題那我想要特別的來跟部長來提醒一件事情就是說其實我們在講台語就是說像客委會或原委會他們都有負責客語、原住民語但是文化部其實是台語的專責部會"},{"start":13868.103,"end":13884.296,"text":"我覺得部長需要了解我們這個台語消失的速度是有多麼的快速所以我們必須要積極的來做一些事情那接著從這張表呢我想要特別跟部長說的是說我可以看我框起來這兩個框框一個是11歲以下一個是30到39歲"},{"start":13886.55,"end":13901.876,"text":"也就是說從這個年30到39歲以下呢我們的台語能力迅速的下降剛剛好這一群人的小孩差不多也就是未滿11歲以下所以我認為親子是重振台語的重要族群"},{"start":13902.296,"end":13920.57,"text":"但這一段時間以來我也跟我文化不停的在討論我們可以針對於親子母語家庭在多做什麼事情包含我們可以擴展出更多的社區結合所以這個部分的話我希望這待會會跟我後面的主題會有關係但是我們先強調一個重點親子是一個很重要的族群"},{"start":13922.652,"end":13941.29,"text":"再跳回來一下國家語言發展中心裡面我發現就是說在條例簡報裡條文沒有變但是簡報裡的說明有一些細微的文字差異譬如說在2020年我們講的是可與相關單位共同投入國家語言語言輸入法語言辨識、語言理解之研發"},{"start":13942.771,"end":13962.782,"text":"但是在我們2023年呢我們就變成了強...剛剛那段紅色線的字呢它就變成了強化語料的後續加值應用所以我想要確認喔是說這一個是說我們是希望定義更擴大是希望讓AI可以進來一起來支持我們的本土語言嗎這個我想要確認一下"},{"start":13966.115,"end":13981.986,"text":"是是好啊那這部分的話因為其實我之前在質詢國科會的時候也希望說因為現在有做臺語的這個CHAT GPT嘛臺語GPT機器人那我也希望之後可以文化部也可以積極的來產出一些相關整理一些相關的政府資料來協助我們做更多的臺語的應用來協助臺語的教學"},{"start":13986.167,"end":14012.611,"text":"再來就是說還是回到我們剛剛講親子那孩子從很多的論文來看這個Renice Kennedy她在1990年的時候她做了一個研究她的結果是說讓幼兒進入在一個充滿語言和文字的環境之中他們就會自發的和成人及其他幼兒用各種不同的方式互動溝通這些方式包含聽說讀寫所以代表了環境的重要性"},{"start":14013.351,"end":14037.596,"text":"在2004年黃美晶研究了一個他給18個孩子新聞報導然後他就問孩子說我跟你用文字呈現用影片呈現用圖卡呈現你們哪一個反饋回來的訊息是最正確的其中他們發現了影片的形式效果是最好的所以這告訴我們什麼影音跟環境是影響孩童語言發展的一個重要要素"},{"start":14039.625,"end":14066.035,"text":"可是呢我也看到我們小孩語言學習環境接觸點有家庭有教育有影視有社區對不對從剛剛這些結論來說那我們現在母語有家庭政策教育有本土語言政策但是我們雖然影視有公式台語還有台語的一些兒少節目但是我們好像還有很多事情可以做畢竟接觸點不能只有單項嘛還應該有更多的點那再來我們社區目前這塊也還是有欠缺的"},{"start":14067.176,"end":14092.535,"text":"所以我想請提供部長一個方向來思考就是說我們現在在寫這些臺語的一些政策的時候社區母語的一些計畫你可以看到我紅色底線的地方我們都還是用家庭而已家庭為概念也就是我們剛剛講的我們可能把母語再擴張出去母語家庭再擴張出去到社區但是我在想我們有沒有可能參考新住民家庭服務中心的模式"},{"start":14093.195,"end":14116.251,"text":"因為它其實新住民也是散落在全台灣各個縣市嘛22個縣市裡面他們總共設置了39個新住民家庭服務中心以新北為例在去年他們這個語文樂學計畫有11個學校參與那產出了課程8個案子應對7個案子親子共學2個案子然後他們還有做第二件事情就是26所策略聯盟的學校產出了56門"},{"start":14118.633,"end":14142.329,"text":"規劃56門課程總共有4000人次參與所以這創造了一個基地的概念所以我在想說我們是不是可以跟內政部或是我們可以來做一個研究報告來研究我們是不是也可以來做一個台語的社區服務中心或是一個台語的基地社區基地讓這個環境一直持續的被創造出來那才能夠幫助我們台語的學習不知道部長的看法是什麼我可以研究看看我也蠻同意的"},{"start":14147.618,"end":14148.198,"text":"一個月應該是規劃,然後執行的話"},{"start":14162.924,"end":14186.951,"text":"我們想說如果一個月內我們提出我們規劃的想法那如果大家同意的話那我們看下半年度或者是明年度開始執行部長跟次長我想這邊我還是想強調一點就是說如果我們研究這個成效是好的我自己覺得我們是可以來仿照啦當然如果我們研究成效不好我們就可以再來想我們應該要怎麼來做這件事情因為環境回到剛剛研究是很重要一件事情那再來就是說"},{"start":14189.659,"end":14215.968,"text":"我也看到就是說我們其實文化部編列了非常多上次的質詢裡面也有講到我們編了很多的預算光影視發展就有九億七千七百萬表演藝術也有一億七千五百萬這些其實都是回到剛剛講的影視娛樂沒有錯這是一個很正確的方向不過我想要知道就是說我們到底有我們但是我再仔細來看我發現我們花在孩子的身上的部分的費用好像並沒有那麼的高"},{"start":14218.052,"end":14239.582,"text":"例如說我們在台語繪本兒歌的經費大概是1370萬那我覺得這部分我們是不是也可以再來好好的討論一下是我們現在還可以怎麼樣做把我們現有的投資再把它變成兒童的版本還是怎麼樣讓兒童 因為還是回到剛剛講的影視是它很重要的一個來源 這個部分"},{"start":14241.708,"end":14268.575,"text":"最近這幾年有一個很有名的動畫公司叫做木棉花那其實他最近也有出一個卡通他很久以前有出一個卡通叫做中華一般小當家但是他最近重新上了一個台語的配音台語的配音那這個每天晚上在9點在網路直播所以大人小孩都很有吸引力所以我在想如果我們剛剛那些影視節目有一些不錯的我們是不是可以加上台語的配音好了"},{"start":14270.716,"end":14283.475,"text":"再回到我們剛剛講的就是說因為一百一千三百七十萬的這一些經費裡面我想要了解的是說我們是持續的有在增加嗎跟過去比起來我們是持續的在增加兒童的投資嗎這可以到之後會後給我一個詳細現在有數字嗎"},{"start":14288.34,"end":14309.12,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們這個基本上是補助案所以如果他進來補助有台語兒歌或是繪本的我們其實都盡量會支持可是因為先前沒有這樣的推動所以申請的量本來就不多那我們希望透過我們這樣持續的比較大力的支持後續第二季的時候有更多人進來申請的話我們都會盡量的給予支持"},{"start":14311.843,"end":14326.849,"text":"好,那這個部分的話就要再麻煩文化部繼續加強那我在想我們現有的部分可不可以再做一些更深入的像這個今年我們出了第一張臺語兒歌專輯而且發辦20場的幼兒巡迴而且還上了Spotify這些我覺得都非常棒"},{"start":14327.549,"end":14354.371,"text":"當然我在想啊可是我們還是要回到兒童接觸影音的環境還有哪一些像是我們還有214處的親子館啊我們還有6699處的幼兒園啊剛剛只有做20場是不是有點太少了尤其我們公幼就還有我們的公幼就有2000多家了然後再來最後一個電子遊樂設施散佈在全台各大賣場的電子遊樂設施現在很多都可能播一些中國的或是英文歌我們有沒有可能播"},{"start":14354.991,"end":14360.014,"text":"我想我們來努力因為台語歌謠我們傳統的也有很多是台語歌謠沒錯對 所以這點我們來推"},{"start":14377.421,"end":14404.786,"text":"之前是不是也需要跟經濟部一起來合作那就是麻煩跟經濟部好好的來溝通因為其實像我之前過去在做特色公園的時候我們也有一些遊戲設施它是會播音樂的我們就讓它播什麼TOO啊所以這個就再麻煩部長然後最後一個問題想要再還是回到一個叫做我們現有的場館上面還有沒有可以更精進的部分但是我們現在有這麼多這個就是文化部所管的這個博物館"},{"start":14407.087,"end":14421.216,"text":"我發現我們常設展台在很多大型的博物館都有像是台灣博物館、歷史博物館、美術館都有可是我們在史前文化博物館在這一塊常設展的台語翻譯卻是缺乏的我想了解一下原因可不可以說明一下"},{"start":14424.7,"end":14447.402,"text":"這個部分我們再了解一下應該是還沒有做完我們在去年度的時候事實上是要求我們文化部的所屬館所都必須要做到長社展的台語版本那它應該是還沒有做完其他的館所大概都完成了好那我想要確認一下再來確認第二個東西是那國立的臺灣工藝研究發展中心也是一樣的狀況嗎?"},{"start":14449.743,"end":14459.145,"text":"最後一件事情就是國家鐵道博物館還在籌備所以我想我們就盡力的把一些該做的項目都把它完備 謝謝謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員部長請回接下來請羅廷偉委員謝謝主席 有請部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":14481.499,"end":14509.888,"text":"委員好部長好部長跟你探討一些問題國家語言發展法2019年所推出為的目的就是尊重國家多元文化的精神促進國家語言的發展傳承、附贈以及其實這不是一個單一一個部會或是一部法律就能夠做到的各個部會在語言相關的一個探討當中都需要一起來努力如果有一些其他部門跟國家語言相關的議題依據國家語言發展法精神文化部"},{"start":14510.128,"end":14517.21,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":14517.786,"end":14543.703,"text":"本席首先就要問的與外交部相關配合國家語言發展法的訂定護照條例我們可以看到這個事情細則也在同一年也就是2019年進行的修法將外文姓名的申請從原本的國語讀音音譯改為國家語言的音譯也就是說我們可以用台語還有客語等語言為自己的外語姓名這一點部長您知道嗎?"},{"start":14545.018,"end":14561.001,"text":"我不知道欸好沒關係我們一起來探討但是近期我們在社群看到一些問題在臉書社團台語社中有一個網友要辦理護照希望用台語的教會羅馬拼音作為外文姓名但是卻遇到刁難"},{"start":14562.462,"end":14582.536,"text":"並被要求提供拼音的證明由於教育部的拼音是臺羅拼音所以被退回所以最後他是透過關係請母親聯絡之前的中區行政院聯合服務中心執行長處理才換成功我們看一下這個下一頁的截圖那對此本席想問兩個問題第一臺語的拼音系統"},{"start":14586.238,"end":14612.847,"text":"只對臺羅文字一種嗎?俗稱白話字的教羅不行嗎?國家語言發展法針對國家語言的定義是指臺灣各故有族群使用的自然語言教會羅馬字在臺灣也是有族群使用可是涉及到信仰的問題因為教育部只公布了臺羅的拼法讓教羅的使用者沒有辦法證明自己的拼音受到國家的肯定請問這種現象您覺得合理嗎?"},{"start":14616.061,"end":14637.859,"text":"是不是應該教育部比較知道這個?教育部可以幫你回答沒關係但是我還是回到剛剛說的我們看到文化部也是負責進行跨部會的一個協調所以我想教育部以及外交部出現這樣的問題我想文化部呢責無旁貸所以這個部分教育部目前了解這樣的問題嗎?好台語社我們剛剛所舉出的一個案例"},{"start":14639.781,"end":14664.273,"text":"各位報告是不是因為這一個可能要我們瞭解跟查證一下是不是下班前我請有關單位把詳細的細節瞭解之後盡速跟您辦公室回報好簡單來講就是現在我們因為我們有這個語言發展所以我要跟大家講就是白話制的教羅以及台羅這個部分我們應該一體一起來重視一下那第二個"},{"start":14664.673,"end":14679.554,"text":"問題喔就算國家肯認教會羅馬字也可以是拼音的一個一環很明顯在辦理的現場也遇到基層的人員不懂的問題請問現況下針對各部會人力是否有足夠的語言培訓是否有文化部來統籌"},{"start":14680.555,"end":14695.32,"text":"能否向外交部及其他部會來反映協調,針對人員的訓練避免民眾在受到這樣的困擾,然後甚至無法用自己認同的語言來作為自己的一個名字。我想文化部作為一個跨部會的協調統籌,是不是能夠幫忙協助這個部分呢?"},{"start":14695.779,"end":14721.92,"text":"好我們來扮演協調的角色好再麻煩這個文化部因為我有實際看到案例啦所以我們提出來絕對不是刁難但我們希望在各個部會當中能夠在這個語言發展法下文化部的一個跨部會能夠更加的友善那第二個本土語言的教育現場有發生一些問題也想要跟文化部來做一個探討那請問部長聽過社團法人EDU教育協會嗎"},{"start":14723.561,"end":14724.381,"text":"來,今年呢"},{"start":14747.096,"end":14762.443,"text":"今年報告在5月底剛出還熱騰騰其中也針對了本土語言進入的國民教育後實施兩年的一個成效我想這群孩子真的特別的優秀還會做出這樣子的一個報告首先在去年的調查中EDU發現"},{"start":14764.264,"end":14786.79,"text":"學生們針對本土語言列為高中階段的兩學分必修的不認同程度達到4乘3比認同的3乘2還要高但弔詭的是只有兩成的學生認為學習本土語言不重要或沒有意義或者是我們看到EDU進一步的調查發現教育現場出現一些明顯的問題有學生匿名反應"},{"start":14787.93,"end":14811.673,"text":"學校會明示或暗示學生選擇統一的語言以方便授課或對學生選擇不同語言表示不悅認為徒增行政端的一個困擾甚至直接告訴同學學生的很多都會亂選米東語、客語、原住語米這個學校現有的師師就是米男"},{"start":14812.794,"end":14826.704,"text":"請大家要協助換言之我們如果我是一個因為我客家人我是一個客語的使用者可能會面臨學校希望所有人都去學台語而我被逼著也只能去學台語的情況請問教育部有接過這樣的投訴嗎"},{"start":14829.284,"end":14858.704,"text":"委員所提這個EDU這個這個召集人是李召集人我們有聯繫過針對這個事情其實在剛推的時候在108課綱之前的前身901館的時候我們就有去做處理那時候在縣市當局長類似這樣的事情那每個縣市局長都很關心在處理中那現行我們知道有一位我們就要開課的這件事我們是跟縣市都很堅持那如果還有這個現象我們接到反應"},{"start":14859.184,"end":14878.663,"text":"都會立即來協助對 有一位就要開課當然這是我們希望能夠達到的因為國家語言發展我們要尊重各族群可是現在就問到就是教學現場有遇到有一位就要開課那行政端就會給予他明示或暗示我相信這應該不是我亂編造的是有可能的一個狀況"},{"start":14879.704,"end":14883.666,"text":"所以我們現在就很關注嘛,個別語言的專業失之不足導致學校端的作業困難有沒有因應的措施啊?"},{"start":14896.358,"end":14918.758,"text":"議員的措施其實事前也跟委員有做報告我們持續跟委員在探討有兩個方法第一個就是從現在3月開始過往的3月開始每年都跟縣市一直有盤點每個月一次到大概7月以後會每兩週一次到8月甚至每週會一次來協助全臺灣的大概3800所的高中以下的學校"},{"start":14919.558,"end":14945.97,"text":"更細緻的一個探討啦那把時間能夠縮短然後去做了解這也是不錯但第二個是成效的問題目前只有兩成六的學生對於課程編排感到滿意超過四成的學生感到不滿意這部分我想我提供這些數據你們應該先稍微了解一下而會在生活中落實本土語言的使用比例也僅有兩成五有將近三成認為完全無法將課程的內容因應到日常生活中"},{"start":14946.95,"end":14956.819,"text":"顯示原先本土語言課程想要達到讓學生在日常生活使用本土語言的目的並沒有成功實踐我們能不能說是失敗呢?你覺得呢?"},{"start":14959.138,"end":14959.278,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":14979.887,"end":14995.9,"text":"所以提出問題嘛那剛剛部長還在旁邊聽嘛我還是回到那一句就是我們因為有語言發展這樣子的一個建制之下我們需要文化部作為統籌去幫忙協助各部會協調但是教育部有沒有做過這個調查我們實行的實務上究竟發生什麼問題"},{"start":14996.561,"end":15026.064,"text":"我們問卷做出來的結果卻是如此我們應該要予以提供這些資料回到我們文化部然後還有各部會來做一個協調統整的一個依據你們擁有這些數據來反映各部會才知道狀況問題可能很多可能是教材的問題可能是教育方式的問題也有可能是問卷提到的因為上課時強調羅馬平淫並不夠生活化這個細節我們是不是也應該去探討一下導致過程中有可能因為有困難"},{"start":15026.644,"end":15047.675,"text":"失去信心甚至失去了興趣我們也有同學認同認為這個國中沒有本土語言的課程導致無法銜接上課聽不懂所以這些教師也很辛苦但是教育部這些問題要如何深入教育現場幫助基層老師進行解決而不至於讓本土語言的課程變成閒物的課程"},{"start":15048.315,"end":15065.372,"text":"這個我想教育部也應該要當責去了解之後去好好的去做探討我希望剛剛你說的一個月兩週一週去做一個細部的溝通這個部分能夠把他們現在所問卷調查出來的結果一起放入到探討裡面這部分可以嗎"},{"start":15066.814,"end":15088.831,"text":"包括剛剛委員提到的不管是教材甚至老師的教學有沒有太過於側重拼音而沒有回到學生學習主體那麼更多的時候我們的教材的編輯上能不能夠跟現在的真實生活或是它的難易度能夠更服應學生的學習跟興趣這個我們會一併做努力 謝謝"},{"start":15089.531,"end":15116.603,"text":"那還是回到剛剛一開始的開場依據國家語言的發展法精神文化部要負責進行跨部會的協調幫助各部會發展國家語言的這個目標我想部長這部分也仰賴您的協助教育部遇到這樣的問題我們提出來了教育部當然要當責去處理但是有這些數據文化部應該有責任去了解各部會的困難然後再幫忙去做一個與與統整協調好嗎是沒問題好謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":15120.316,"end":15141.963,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷偉委員部長請回好 我們接下來請黃仁委員黃仁 黃仁委員不在我們請林柱英委員林柱英 林柱英委員不在我們請林德福 林德福委員林德福委員不在我們請高金素美委員"},{"start":15148.672,"end":15148.692,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":15163.732,"end":15190.934,"text":"委員長,你對原住民實現學校的成立應該很了解,對不對?而且我們施行了好多年了原住民族學校的設立它是以原住民族的語言文化它的教育為核心的課程教育和學習的成就評量你應該也很清楚吧?好,謝謝所以呢,也就是說我們一間原住民族的學校的成立它是需要校長、老師、部落社區、家長還有我們的旗老共同支持、共同辦學才可以推動起來,對嗎?"},{"start":15192.675,"end":15215.343,"text":"所以校長扮演很重要的角色對不對但是現在我們在地方上有一些家長給我投訴他碰到的問題他說呢學校校長的領選制度當然啦他的調動還有領選是地方政府他的權責我們要尊重也給他支持可是呢碰到一個問題就是我們好不容易民主學校的成立"},{"start":15215.783,"end":15225.086,"text":"已經獲得主管機關的這樣的經費的核定開始籌備的時候可是卻聽到校長要被地方政府調動的這樣問題請問一下署長我們要怎麼解決委員所提的這個情況昨天我們有接到這個訊息"},{"start":15234.088,"end":15249.983,"text":"是不是容我因為昨天一接到已經是晚上是不是給我們兩天的時間把南投的這個情況就他的法律或實際情形查明清楚跟委員回報必要的時候做一些不是合法處置的部分我們會給予非常謝謝所以署長這很重要因為我們已經合訂了民主學校"},{"start":15254.787,"end":15255.047,"text":"兩天之內給我一個回應好嗎?"},{"start":15272.626,"end":15289.95,"text":"希望我們的國教署不要覺得兩手一攤覺得跟你們沒事情一定要處理 謝謝第二個我要問一下原民會我們請署長先休息一下我們通過了國家語言發展法還有原住民族的語言發展法我們也編列了111年到115年5年所謂的這個計畫然後編列經費是321億然後321億呢原民會一年只有15億"},{"start":15301.134,"end":15305.631,"text":"十五一要做16個族群、42個語系別的語言發展事務你認為夠嗎?"},{"start":15309.181,"end":15333.728,"text":"確實整體經費320因為它分4個部會是個大族群所以你們要不要努力爭取一下我們希望如果有下一期的整體發展方案能夠因為我們畢竟16組所以原民會要把這件事情告訴行政院對不對42個語別對啊因為我們今天非常的羨慕文化部裡面文化部裡面的預算就蠻多的光是推這個臺語的部分而我們的原民"},{"start":15334.668,"end":15353.65,"text":"有剛剛講到16個族群42個語系你們只有一年15億真的是不夠所以要極力爭取第三個我要問的是教職人員可能要教職人員跟直播共學這個就是因為資源分配的不公所以呢我們的族語師資分為專職教師教職人員跟直播共學對不對"},{"start":15354.631,"end":15378.391,"text":"那教職人員的直播共學他們這兩大類是佔最多數對不對他們沒有勞健保他們只有終點費然後他們的終點費又不符合現在的物價指數所以你要怎麼解決要不要提高他們的費用我剛講過這兩個教職人員跟直播共學是最基層的而且呢他們的工作難道不在語言發展嗎"},{"start":15380.021,"end":15383.403,"text":"能不能原民會來幫忙一下因為他也在所謂的語言發展事項嘛你們每年的十五億能不能也幫忙一下教育部的國教署"},{"start":15405.445,"end":15432.478,"text":"這個可能我們回去再盤點我們的經費資源跟各個計畫的我告訴你問題一定要再來就是再給我一點時間因為我們真的委員會的問題實在太多了專職主義的老師來看一下你知道我們現在有幾位專職取得高級認證取得高級認證累計下來應該有8000多名主任8000多名那8000多名的主任現在都是我們的專職主義老師嗎沒有那問題出在哪裡"},{"start":15433.695,"end":15445.45,"text":"當然因為從90年開始到102年到現在有些都年紀比較大了所以他們應該不會投入到我們一般的主義教學的行列裡面那你覺得8000個人夠嗎"},{"start":15447.628,"end":15451.932,"text":"我們要持續在培力那你知道問題有一個很嚴重的問題是什麼問題嗎因為我們現在的合格的那個是高級認證對那高級認證出了什麼方式出了什麼問題高級認證當然包括他的聽說讀寫的測驗方式對就是以漢人考試的方式來進行測驗嘛可是主語是用這種方式來認證的嗎不應該是吧所以你們是不是應該要修正一下"},{"start":15477.356,"end":15499.307,"text":"這塊委員之前有提醒所以我們其實已經跟演藝會就我們現在的聽說讀寫的認證除了這個部分要精進之外我的建議就是高級中等以下學校原住民族主義老師資格和聘用辦法的第二條我們必須把這個文字修正一下請問一下署長同不同意因為目前來講剛剛那個邱副署長有講高級認證的確是"},{"start":15502.108,"end":15512.188,"text":"我們當時在訂法律的時候有些人是非常堅持的我們就覺得他會有問題所以我們需要過度他並不是法律是在你們的第二條我們改為中高級可不可以"},{"start":15514.049,"end":15531.947,"text":"這個方向我們來努力我也知道袁明暉有在開會聯想中除了是要精進我們考試的模式在這個法上面我們要要求把高級族語認證改為中高級我這樣講是可行的為什麼因為我們有先例我們原住民族教育法第31條原住民學生參與私資培育的大學公費生"},{"start":15535.71,"end":15562.136,"text":"公開招生或校內甄選的時候他就已經明文規定是要中級以上當時為什麼用中級以上我們中級以上才能夠符合絕大部分的這些學生嘛 對不對那現在呢提中有一個非常重要的要點就是原住民的公費生他在畢業之前他要取得中高級也就是有個過渡期所以呢在我們的專職教師上面如果沒有一個過渡期"},{"start":15563.376,"end":15574.43,"text":"你直接就把說高級的話其實在原民會在考試制度上面沒有一些精進的錯誤你是會影響到非常多專職教師的聘用的可以嗎?"},{"start":15576.684,"end":15580.229,"text":"最後幾分鐘語推組織很重要對不對請問一下副處長現在語推組織他們執行很多計畫對不對那你覺得他們的人力狀況夠嗎"},{"start":15596.025,"end":15619.444,"text":"謝謝委員提醒因為我們從原來的6大項工作其實到去年都檢到4項不過現在確實還是有各組理推組織就我們設定的KPI的部分希望我們能夠再跟他們重新調整我建議你很重要的一個部分就是我們現在姓名條例已經單列原住民文字通過了重要的是什麼你知道嗎書寫系統對"},{"start":15621.305,"end":15621.325,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":15649.78,"end":15650.84,"text":"國教署蓬署長、園民會邱副處長"},{"start":15684.026,"end":15698.073,"text":"主席好,我們常說語言斷文化滅民族王大家都已經朗朗上口耳熟能詳那背後當然這個關鍵就是失智所以我們今天在這個地方討論"},{"start":15699.674,"end":15718.759,"text":"我自己擔任立委的當中其實真的是三不五時我會接到一些陳情那些不見得是都會地區就是來到平地都市地區很多家長會跟我說我的小孩怎麼學校被迫上什麼語什麼語"},{"start":15720.96,"end":15743.967,"text":"這個也不是道聽途說我自己接過的陳情就很多那很多的報導也都會提到說教師荒這個荒是包括族語的教師所以呢在這個當中其實背後就是我們想要來看看到底出了什麼問題今天教育部的專報裡面有提供一個數據"},{"start":15745.487,"end":15765.228,"text":"米蘭語具有教師資格的將近一萬五千人克語五千多人原住民族語文兩千多人而且這個兩千多人除了包含正職專職的族語教師而且還分了16組"},{"start":15766.77,"end":15793.4,"text":"所以如果去除16族其實這個數據是有一點點嚴重所以先請教我們原民會跟我們的國教署署長就是到底有沒有去盤點過我們到底需要多少的族語師資然後有沒有去依照族群別去做調查因為我相信有的族群他其實是夠的"},{"start":15794.58,"end":15794.74,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":15806.485,"end":15828.152,"text":"就每一個學校內的孩子選完之後能夠提供師資的這件事我們是盡全力去處理但是我仍然也擔心所有的孩子他想要選當他進到了那個42個之別的語系的時候我覺得應該還要再努力"},{"start":15830.154,"end":15838.323,"text":"對,所以這個數據應該是很大的一段落差跟我們的需求量可是至少我們跟原民會持續來努力對,那這個資料要開始著手調查也希望如果說兩個月內來提供可以嗎?"},{"start":15847.472,"end":15851.135,"text":"我聽到最多的抱怨其實是說竹語教師說那個證照專業門檻很高啊然後待遇沒有吸引力那我們來看一下這些他講的證照資格"},{"start":15875.572,"end":15890.767,"text":"不論是從校外進來做教學支援的也就是教職老師他是需要語言證照高級以上跟合格證書學校內要來兼主語課他也是需要高級證照跟教師證"},{"start":15892.148,"end":15897.331,"text":"那麼如果我們來看待遇問題就來了我覺得這也是爭點我之前都有質詢過我希望教育部要來正視為什麼呢以前我們講的終點費260我自己是教師出身這個以前的源頭是這樣給正職學校的老師我們去監課我們去幫人家待課的時候那個有一點點是加班費的概念是給正職老師"},{"start":15921.164,"end":15942.904,"text":"但是沒有想到後來有越來越多支援教師的時候我們用這樣的終點費他們就會覺得有問題那我現在簡單的講因為時間的關係我們用一個最簡單的算法如果說以這些現在我們提高到360了他一個禮拜最多只能上20堂那麼他一個月的月薪28800"},{"start":15945.886,"end":15974.625,"text":"這是我們的最低基本工資而且有可能未來的最低基本工資還會高於他所以這個部分他是遠遠光是低於最低薪資的專職主語教師他的薪水是一半另外還有實驗學校的那些民族教育老師多半是年輕老師去擔任他們都有一整年13.5個月的薪水可是教資人員沒有寒暑假只有9個月"},{"start":15976.046,"end":15996.42,"text":"怎麼會找得到老師?怎麼會找得到老師?所以我覺得證照的門檻是一個問題但是不是最大的問題而是到底有沒有誘因能夠讓他們為這件事情當作一生的職業他們的職質為文化語言傳承來努力我覺得這個部分我們要來一起討論還有"},{"start":15998.841,"end":16024.043,"text":"這些老師都很辛苦,薪水不一樣同工不同酬我們最起碼給他們一個證明其實我們有一個聘用辦法他們都叫做原住民族語老師不要說你是專職教師我是教資人員不好聽啊其實他們都是原住民族語教師我想這個部分我們也要做最後一點就是我們要去做一個幫忙啊"},{"start":16025.004,"end":16029.869,"text":"既然教師慌我們找了一堆人拜託拜託來學校幫忙擔任主語教師一下但是我接到好多陳情造成困擾他們怎麼樣呢因為他們學校被要求要整學期投保"},{"start":16041.179,"end":16064.831,"text":"結果讓他們喪失很重要很重要的農保資格這是非同小可的事情影響他一輩子所以我想這個部分還有很多的問題可以到辦公室我們一起來討論那我現在是想說我最後一句就是希望原民會也好教育部也好不要忘記我們國家語言投注這麼多的錢"},{"start":16065.911,"end":16091.251,"text":"我們可能會想說好像沒什麼效果我們投注這麼多錢有用嗎我希望大家有一個遠大的願景其實我們還是最後要回歸到我們做這一些師資其實是希望未來能夠有一個原住民族學校一個以該族群語言為核心的一個一般學校那我想這個部分至少要來開始推事辦計畫"},{"start":16094.033,"end":16115.479,"text":"要不然越來越多人我們的社會對立的聲音對原住民那麼好語言的經費那麼多他們的語言到底有沒有進步國家這樣子做值不值得我們應該要推出一個願景我們要去透過這樣的師資的儲備我們先去做一些事辦的這樣的學校讓大家很快的看到"},{"start":16116.099,"end":16129.283,"text":"國小畢業走出去那麼會講族語這筆錢很值得我覺得教育部、原民會要好好思考這個問題好不好好謝謝署長、謝謝副處長、謝謝主席好謝謝,謝謝吳立華委員副處長請坐好我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在我們請葉淵芝委員"},{"start":16151.325,"end":16167.279,"text":"我請那個教育部好了好,請彭署長署長,因為我現在是關心學校有關於母語推廣的問題那我們在學校,我不知道署長有沒有去了解一下學校推動母語的狀況給你幾個字,下一個註解"},{"start":16170.735,"end":16193.801,"text":"理想很豐滿,現實很骨感這是很多學校老師或他們的反應有一個校長遇到一個學生問學生說哇你學了那麼久的原住民語來講兩句給老師聽聽看講不出來了那如果我們理想是很豐滿但是現實很骨感的話那一定就是在管理上或政策推動出了問題嗎"},{"start":16195.014,"end":16205.731,"text":"我們現在請問我們現在是不是有成立一個國家語言發展研究中心這是不知道是文化部的是不是那請部長好不好我跟請教一下"},{"start":16207.711,"end":16225.246,"text":"國家語言發展研究中心這個編制多少人?還是他是一個什麼樣的單位?準備要成立他沒有一個完最後的最後人數但是一個大概準備要成立的一個原則"},{"start":16230.049,"end":16241.133,"text":"我們現在是先送組織條例行政法人國家語言發展研究中心的組織條例送行政院那行政院核定之後就會送到立法院所以現在在這個中心還沒有成立之前"},{"start":16243.043,"end":16268.488,"text":"最高的主管機關就是推動母語教育的是文化部國家語言的主管機關是文化部那所以是文化部嘛那所以文化部我覺得你就要站在最上位的概念去思考說為什麼我們不管在學校推動或是整個社會推動會出狀況嗎那我就以學校為例啦我不知道說部長你知不知道現在在學校或署長也可以幫忙回答最主要遇到的困難是什麼"},{"start":16270.27,"end":16292.895,"text":"大概我認為有三個第一個是實質第二個我個人認為教材我覺得教材可能還可以更生活而靈活那麼第三個我覺得在整體的牌課上對應到實質上學校端的一些運作那你都知道嘛那要解決嘛確實跟我了解差不多"},{"start":16293.905,"end":16321.104,"text":"因為比如以國小來講的話很多他沒有外聘老師他是導師兼導師不可能各種語言都會嘛所以就以閩南語教學為主那如果是原住民的語言的話就要外聘嘛外聘老師特別少特別少有些偏鄉學校不願意去那要不然就是會出現直播的狀況對不對原住民老師在別的地方線上教學那這個其實文化部做就好了嘛也不需要到學校推廣嘛"},{"start":16322.151,"end":16342.074,"text":"不然的話就是很多原住民小朋友乾脆放棄了啦他去學閩南語啦所以這在現實上面推動就有很大的困難嘛然後在排課上面為了配合少數的比如說原住民的老師或者是其他的比較少數語言的老師有時候早自習要去上課或是晚自習要去上課"},{"start":16343.115,"end":16368.257,"text":"然後你108課綱當時要把必修課減少讓學校去開放選修結果後來又塞了母語進來也打亂了學校原本的排課所以是有造成學校端的一些困擾那我覺得如果這些困擾大家度過了問題解決了讓我們小朋友學會母語了我覺得很值得啦可是實際上你們現在有去分析覺得他們真的有學會母語了嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":16369.927,"end":16382.511,"text":"以這個成效而言跟文報告我個人覺得還沒有達到我們想像的水準好那怎麼做就剛才有幾個文給我10秒鐘20秒20秒第一個我覺得像剛剛那個失字的問題以原名為例"},{"start":16388.052,"end":16402.653,"text":"最近我們在處理他證照到底要不要能夠到中高級他就能夠比較廣泛的運用適合的、適任的實資這一個很快在一兩個月內會比較大的進展這是原名的部分以客語的部分"},{"start":16403.474,"end":16427.624,"text":"剛才有提到有幾個課語重點的學校他應該要管制他在11期學年的要專任師資這件事情我們有一套的這個做法但因為時間還沒到從今天看到那個效果有慢慢出來第一個師資部分第二個教材部分不管科委員所提以及我自己今天有帶那個課語的教材來我個人覺得可能我們再跟相關的單位再去做一些處理第三個排課的部分"},{"start":16429.125,"end":16450.421,"text":"可能在師資如果更廣泛的開開來之後才有可能去回答這個問題所以師資蠻元素的蠻源頭的所以以上是三點報告你都知道問題啦其實我建議你可以常常去跟其他學校聊天我為了要來跟你質詢問了非常多的意見沒有一個說這個母語推廣的好話真的啦"},{"start":16454.52,"end":16477.194,"text":"大家都講說做這個事情目前都看不到任何的效益啊我覺得這樣就是很悲哀你知道嗎就是說大家認為這個事情應該做可是政策的推動是到了末端大家全部都不接受你沒有誘發出大家想要做這個事情的動機嘛所以每一個人都覺得說我就應付就好因為既然課綱有這樣規定那我就做啊"},{"start":16477.794,"end":16493.94,"text":"然後我要老師我找不到那就視訊啊不然就是大家就閩南語的學生去原住民的學生去學閩南語啊對不對這個你就為了做而做嘛所以我真的建議啦因為你去找校長問你去找老師問沒有人會跟你說實話啦"},{"start":16495.424,"end":16508.269,"text":"每一個人跟我講說這個地方推動這個東西沒有什麼用不要講我講的都說不要講我講的但實際上就是這樣我要說新的文化部部長你作為一個母語的推廣的組織機關聽到我反應這樣心聲你的感覺怎麼樣"},{"start":16512.779,"end":16534.041,"text":"的確是我覺得整個語言的發展是跟當時的環境還有父母親的觀念還有學校的執行能力有關就他們執行的好跟不好跟整個父母親因為這個是一個很重要的議題可能隨時大家就要來這邊再討論一次那下一次來的時候你覺得可以改進哪些地方"},{"start":16535.745,"end":16561.067,"text":"剛剛講到因為有一部分屬於教育部不能夠做的比如說在學校推動的時候我們文化部是沒辦法介入的父母性的觀念文化部也沒辦法介入那誰可以 父母性的觀念誰可以介入我盡我的責任在文化這一塊如果最後的我們把母語推廣的責任歸咎於父母的話那我就預言這個推廣一定會失敗因為父母沒有理由配合你們做這些事情"},{"start":16562.444,"end":16588.744,"text":"不然的話就可以仿照國外的做法有一些國家直接把預算補助給父母比如說新住民 舉例來講 新住民 越南的新住民政府就 他在家裡面 他在學校裡面學一個禮拜一堂的越南話回到家父母都不講越南話 他學不會 沒有這個環境那不如就補助給家庭 跟他講說以後你是不是可以多跟你的小孩講越南話好像 我好像印象中有國外是採取這樣的做法"},{"start":16589.324,"end":16605.751,"text":"那個文化部是負責臺語我們就有臺語家庭企劃對 也可以考慮這樣做啦不然錢扎下去用那麼多人力物力其實你也排擠掉學生學習其他科目的時間嘛但如果都達不到效果我覺得非常可惜"},{"start":16606.571,"end":16622.143,"text":"大家不要粉飾太平第二個是教材的問題因為我也有得到很多家長反應很多家長就說叫我去看他們的台語教材說他們都念不出來比如說我們溫刀溫刀就寫成晚刀然後什麼打瞌睡叫濁閨"},{"start":16630.153,"end":16654.698,"text":"這個書長還是部長唸一下部長你文化涵養比較高你唸一下這段好不好金載日拍...我沒辦法唸這個你唸一下啦金載日什麼我沒辦法請這個比較懂台語的來唸你唸一下這是一個已經非常研究他已經是很深入在研究臺語文化的人寫出來的文章"},{"start":16656.591,"end":16677.183,"text":"在學校叫學生唸,每一個學生唸出來,你唸一下試圖唸一下,這不是找你麻煩,這就是大家很努力寫出來的東西我們就去教他的阿里山森林遊樂圈,七頭兩天大家說他已經很久不去寫,陣情洶洶"},{"start":16680.981,"end":16708.796,"text":"讓他選擇我們最少會聽﹖吃醉、愛金、安白﹖給大家大肝、枸杞、赤頭、敬拜你算是蠻強的算很厲害啦,因為很多人都挑戰失敗很多人挑戰失敗那其實我舉這個例子只是反映現在教材真的有問題啦教育部編的《台語辭典》也真的是有問題啦四季怎麼講"},{"start":16713.301,"end":16740.191,"text":"四季四季對我知道那你中文是怎麼寫中文怎麼寫啊我沒看到耶怎麼寫我不知道乾淨的中文是什麼清氣中文是什麼中文乾淨他寫親氣啦我的房間不時容真親氣啦這是書寫啦他一直這樣講沒錯但是你用這個當作音譯的話念起來很奇怪"},{"start":16742.001,"end":16757.495,"text":"以前是用羅馬拼音嘛,用什麼,對不對,台文,台羅拼音嘛,現在是用中文去音譯嘛。所以,很多家長都,他說你叫我啦,去念小朋友的台語課本啊,說你念念看,你念出來念不出來。我說我念不出來啊。"},{"start":16761.785,"end":16785.19,"text":"我們在場的官員是因為你本來就很有研究你唸得出來一般對台語不了解的唸得出來嗎部長剛剛就唸不出來啊所以我覺得說未來若成立這個國家語言發展的東西可不可以把教材也編一下不見得一定要用這種方式嘛採取多元的教學啊唱歌啊或者是用一些比較大家習慣的語言的方式切入啊語言是生活的東西嘛"},{"start":16786.03,"end":16800.392,"text":"是不是可以在教材上面也可以研發出一個比較適合大家推廣母語的教材那這個我知道是應該是屬於國家屬的還是屬於文化部還是屬於國家語言未來的國家語言發展中心"},{"start":16802.309,"end":16821.947,"text":"在教材的這個運用上一個是教材一個還有其他的領域包含像生活中常見到的影片、廣告或是各種的素材在老師在運用上都可以靈活的來予以處理那這一些運用的教學方法"},{"start":16822.227,"end":16833.695,"text":"﹗"},{"start":16838.241,"end":16863.506,"text":"謝謝,謝謝葉元芝委員部長、署長請回我們接下來請黃婕、黃婕、黃婕委員不在我們請何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳委員不在我們請吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在我們請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在我們請游浩委員、游浩、游浩委員不在我們請謝伊鳳"},{"start":16866.667,"end":16888.878,"text":"謝依鳳委員不在好,我們今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另外有黃仁委員陳冠廷委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議做如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢及相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":16890.078,"end":16900.928,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆的部分,請相關機關競訴以書面答覆。報告委員會,今天議程處理完畢,現在散會,謝謝各位。"},{"start":16929.532,"end":16929.712,"text":"拜拜!"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}