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我們請教育部陸委會跟移民署好 麻煩三位上台好 首先 先恭喜 感謝這個我們陸委會 移民署你們最近幹的大事都是對的台灣人民都聽你們"},{"start":34.246,"end":38.649,"text":"我們稍微仔細講講 哇 現在這陸委會叫移民署 這麼強的台灣人這麼強的處理台灣 叫中國的問題 兩個 先給你們感謝"},{"start":47.83,"end":56.352,"text":"教育部次長,請問最近美國國務卿魯比歐外國核心要去美國討論要辦簽證,說要開始啟動社群言論的審查,你有沒有掌握這個訊息?"},{"start":68.82,"end":94.131,"text":"有看到報導 但是不清楚 詳細的資料你這樣沒人精 我早上睡就打了 你都沒人精看他們就通令他們在美國的各外館美國在各地的外館如果那些國家的核心要來美國註冊申請學生簽證要對他的這一些過去的一些主張啊只要危害到美國 應該是美國利益啦他就有一些心災啦所以我們台灣剛好在開始啟動這個事情"},{"start":97.618,"end":112.265,"text":"這部分我們有涉及到國安或者是其他的那個陸委會或國安單位他們那邊會先審查會先審查對如果來申請要來做教育譬如教育文化交流的時候會先經過那邊來審查好那既然有審查那陸委會你們會怎麼審查"},{"start":117.64,"end":143.505,"text":"如果委員講的是學生的部分學生的部分我們目前對學生的部分確實是沒有我們是對於來交流的學者或是教育界或是文化界的人士我們會review他的過去的言論跟一些立場包括有沒有矮化台灣的地位等等但是對學生的部分"},{"start":143.985,"end":154.527,"text":"目前確實是沒有所以是入台症的部分就對了對就是短期來交流的對沒錯那學生沒有學生沒有那你認為學生該不該審查好這題太難了你回答他先看看謝謝委員提示我們會去適合這個問題第二個你們有沒有發現有職業學生職業學生過去確實有有喔過去確實有存在有發現沒有"},{"start":173.871,"end":189.327,"text":"我發現,有查到,要請他們回去嗎?過去確實有這樣的例子要請他們回去嗎?只要我們有發現,都會請他們回去你們有發現嗎?過去有例子啦你講得很保守"},{"start":191.656,"end":209.945,"text":"那接下來就說,不管是中國學生或外國學生都一樣,教育部有這些人就要申請學生簽證來台灣要在社群裡面,每天都要發,台灣是中國的一部分"},{"start":211.833,"end":228.461,"text":"台灣是中國一部分,不然就像上次那些中國職業學生來台灣交流,是要罵那些基金會啊那些什麼中國台灣隊、中國台北隊,這種的這個核心啊,像這種的像這種的喔,理政委啦,或是你們對於研究看來像這種的喔,要申請來台灣讀書,過去不要來啦"},{"start":235.066,"end":252.262,"text":"他的言論如果涉及矮化台灣有涉及到國安的問題我們也一樣會請外交或者是陸委會這邊來做一個審查說他們這樣的言論是否適宜來訪這部分是有一些管制的好 我說這事情會越來越嚴重會越來越嚴重他們一定會職業學生就訓練好才會來來這裡做統戰的第二"},{"start":263.093,"end":285.912,"text":"市長 教育部市長 你知不知道去年 一整年 台灣的學生被推到中國交流的多少團 多少人 你知道嗎目前 詳細的資料他都有登錄啦 有一個登錄平台那那個詳細的資料 我這邊這事情多嚴重今天一個暑假 應該差不多兩百團有啦暑假喔"},{"start":290.567,"end":311.559,"text":"台灣的阿新喔 希望大氣中 這樣統戰我們兩霸團喔來 梁副主委喔 來我們台灣的阿新去那裡交流啊 去那裡坐桌子 叫人吃飯 開花啦各式各樣的民意啦 人家要跟我們統戰"},{"start":313.442,"end":322.488,"text":"我們有一個高雄立刻起身說 別吃了 我們回家 搞什麼東西我們是來讓你們統戰的 我們是來交流的 有人這樣嗎?沒有 我沒有聽過那都聽到之後才回來聽到之後 這個有高雄歡迎議會了嗎?沒有聽過沒有聽過 還繼續去對啊"},{"start":334.642,"end":362.266,"text":"繼續去,我們陸委會都不歡迎我應該這樣講就是說中國各級台辦他都有KPI就是一年要花多少預算然後要拉台灣多少青年學生到他們的比如說湖北省或是上海或是什麼每一個地方他都有這樣的KPI要拉多少人去對,然後就到我們的高中大學嘛"},{"start":362.526,"end":390.097,"text":"在台灣的高中大學那通常都不是透過校方而是透過學校裡面的某一個老師那個老師有嚴重喔 人家是要用社團 用學會還有那個老師直接大學開課對 總之我如果要做一段期的通識課沒有錯 要做一段期 去到那裡說教多少 讀多少 教多少教多少 啊 那就有那個台商出錢啦所以同學喔 那台商對我們很好所以你們基本也不用教那麼多啦有這種的對不對"},{"start":392.711,"end":417.783,"text":"當然有啊 現在譬如說就是你只要出機票費 然後落地 時數 全包然後還有一些什麼阿這你都沒有管喔 這要用通來通去 你都沒有管這個我們是長期都有在注意那我們會 如果有必要的話我們就會動用兩岸關係條例33條之一的合作行為或是其他的如果有涉及幫中共發展組織的話 那個就是用反滲透法"},{"start":418.803,"end":425.006,"text":"第三個 臺灣隊到冠軍 進入決賽 中國團 中國核心 自己這樣通知記者說就是他要說中國臺灣隊怎麼越來越高 那幾個 兩天可以來嗎"},{"start":440.393,"end":460.58,"text":"我們都有對於相關人士的發言但我們會有註記註記意思就是說,當你想要再進來台灣的時候我們在審查的過程之中,我們就會把你過去的言行給考慮進去沒有啦,你就直接...那新聞就不可以再來,還要審查,還要這麼狠,還要審查中國本宮說明,我們一眾要吃豆腐,要去中國台灣隊黨是在中國台灣隊"},{"start":468.343,"end":492.472,"text":"這個委員你放心,我們所謂的註記審查就是很嚴厲的審查好啦,我看你們都為了兩岸和諧,我知道啦,可是你們這次的手法怎麼也不錯啦好來,第三,我們現在要捏,這可能移民署齁,這中國人要捏中華民國的新聞情啦是現在有一些那些算是在倒空的,說什麼六年,該做四年啦是"},{"start":495.407,"end":504.712,"text":"我們的政府現在有說喔 我們現在境外敵對勢力就一共而已 叫中國了結果他們可以捏新穩定的連線是最大的越南馬來西亞越久 他們的馬來西亞越南 什麼泰國 黑米我們的境外敵對勢力喔 他們要捏我們的新穩定 老實說境外敵對勢力要捏新穩定 現在最低因為你們是在爭取什麼 這是你們規定還是什麼規定"},{"start":525.476,"end":533.946,"text":"事實上跟委員報告,由8年轉到6年,這個也都是經過那時候所有的一個修法,我們跟陸委會好,現在情勢變更"},{"start":537.714,"end":553.359,"text":"什麼改六改四 改到十啦 改到四 改回去 改回去十世界各國要來台灣捏新婚情的 都比照我們的外匯業 境外敵對勢力 要捏我們的新婚情 最低電到頭照 這樣對不對"},{"start":558.757,"end":567.993,"text":"你是不是在驚訝我們會跟陸委會 因為這是兩岸關係條例所規定的那我想委員的指導 我們會跟陸委會陸委會"},{"start":571.243,"end":598.28,"text":"你過去要創一個最大的 中國人創最大的唯一境外敵對勢力 只有中華民國身份證是全世界所要來的只有中華民國身份證的外國人 期限最大的我應該跟委員報告一下就是說外國人他其實是四到八年實際上是四年到八年那大陸人是四年到六年 他們有四年嗎"},{"start":599.541,"end":626.804,"text":"那實際上外國人不可能四年就拿到 不可能四年就拿到所以其實確實因為我們兩岸之間特殊的關係那從這個兩岸人民條例1992年到現在其實中間經過很多次的政黨輪替那很多的規定老實講就是在那個年代他有他的道理但是現在未必有道理最後我問一個問題要申請入台證"},{"start":628.145,"end":650.401,"text":"申請來台一親的這種居留證要申請中華民國身份證這三個證有哪幾個他要宣誓效忠中華民國以陸配來說沒有以陸配來說都沒有中國人要來納中華民國身份證他要宣誓效忠中華民國"},{"start":652.168,"end":666.595,"text":"沒有 目前的制度沒有這個部分我們有看到很多立委提出來要修法的工作所以我們覺得這個部分如果委員們的討論有取得共識我們也支持"},{"start":671.786,"end":685.794,"text":"你要中華民國身份證,不免宣誓效忠中華民國先來說我是中國人,我國家是中華人民共和國我就是因為我拿中華民國身份證而已,我沒有認同你啦,我就是中國人啦中華人民共和國他就比較好人啦我沒有認同你中華民國,我就是要拿那張啦,這還不太好啊這你也比較主動的,我們這個立法院喔,一大堆在那裡倒空的喔,那些人都不會有這個行為"},{"start":700.041,"end":724.086,"text":"國家要有台獨 國家要有台獨 台灣人在看是台獨美國這沒辦法 美國這大罷免 還要處理事情嘛啊 可是我們的政府要有台獨啊我們的政府這條 我說四年 八年 六年 最少啦你不要說境外敵對 最少你也叫各國的都一樣要全世界 台灣唯一的境外敵對勢力你要中華民國新聞局 你要最快"},{"start":727.671,"end":746.782,"text":"現在還要逼四年 要修啊 你要四年還不用效忠中華民國好 謝謝委員提醒 這個部分我們會去做制度上的檢討好 加油啦 這次陸委會叫移民署表現得很好繼續加油 我要跟你們講一件事你們要緊表態 加油 臨時再回到我再問一遍好 謝謝"},{"start":754.799,"end":755.666,"text":"那我們下一位請審發會委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時15分）主席，我們請教育部、陸委會跟移民署。"],["主席：麻煩三位上臺。"],["王委員義川：首先，先恭喜、感謝陸委會及移民署，你們最近幹的大事都是對的，臺灣人民都挺你們！我們所有的支持者都說：現在陸委會跟移民署真的是真正的臺灣人，真正在處理臺灣跟中國的問題。先跟兩位表達感謝。第二，請問一下教育部次長，最近美國國務卿盧比歐他們說外國學生要去美國讀書、辦簽證，要開始啟動對他們社群言論的審查，你有掌握這個訊息嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：有看到報導，但是不清楚詳細的內容。"],["王委員義川：你這樣不認真，我昨天在Threads就發貼文了，你都不認真看，他們就通令美國在各地的外館，如果有那個國家的學生要來美國讀書、申請學生簽證，要對他過去的主張，只要危害到美國，應該是指美國利益，就會有一些審查，我們臺灣有開始啟動這些事情嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這部分有涉及到國安或者是其他跟陸委會或國安單位有關，他們那邊會先審查。"],["王委員義川：會先審查？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。如果申請要來做教育、文化交流的時候，會先經過那邊審查。"],["王委員義川：好！既然有審查，陸委會你們會怎麼審查？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：如果委員講的是學生的部分，我們目前對學生的部分確實是沒有，對於來交流的學者或是教育界、文化界的人士，我們會review他過去的言論跟一些立場，包括有沒有矮化臺灣的地位等等。"],["王委員義川：所以這算……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是對學生的部分目前確實是沒有。"],["王委員義川：所以這是入臺證的部分就對了？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["王委員義川：就是短期來交流的？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，沒錯。"],["王委員義川：學生沒有？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：學生沒有。"],["王委員義川：你認為學生該不該審查？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：呃……"],["王委員義川：好，這題太難，你回去想想看。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：謝謝委員提示，我們會去思考這個問題。"],["王委員義川：第二個，你們有沒有發現有職業學生？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：職業學生過去確實有。"],["王委員義川：有嘛？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：過去確實有存在。"],["王委員義川：有發現嗎？發現、查到，然後請他們回去嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：過去確實有這樣的例子。"],["王委員義川：有請他們回去嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：只要我們有發現都會請他們回去。"],["王委員義川：你們有發現嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：過去有例子。"],["王委員義川：你說得很保守。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["王委員義川：接下來一樣，不管是不是中國學生，外國學生都一樣，教育部，如果有這些人要申請學生簽證來臺灣，他就在社群裡面每天都在喊臺灣是中國的一部分，不然就像上次馬英九基金會邀請中國職業學生來臺灣交流，來這邊說什麼中國臺灣隊、中國臺北隊，這種就是職業學生，像這種你認為……還是你要回去研究看看像這種如果申請要來臺灣讀書，乾脆不要讓他來了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：他的言論如果涉及矮化臺灣、涉及到國安的問題，我們也一樣會請外交部或者是陸委會來做審查，就是說他們這樣的言論是否適宜來訪，這部分是有一些管制的。"],["王委員義川：好，我說這事情會越來越嚴重，他們一定有職業學生，就是訓練好再來的，來這裡要做統戰的。第二，教育部次長，你知不知道去年一整年臺灣的學生被拖去中國交流的，多少團、多少人？你知道嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：詳細的資料都有登錄，有一個登錄平臺，詳細的資料我這邊……"],["王委員義川：這件事情多嚴重呢？恐怕一個暑假差不多有200團啦！暑假喔！臺灣的學生被拖去中國這樣做統戰的差不多200團喔！","梁副主委，我們臺灣的學生去那邊交流，坐在那邊和人家吃飯、開會等各式各樣的名義，人家在統戰，我們是否有教授立刻起身說：不要講了！我們回家！搞什麼東西！我們是來讓你們統戰的喔！我們是來交流的。有人這樣嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不曾，不曾聽過。"],["王委員義川：都是聽完再回來？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["王委員義川：聽完之後，有教授反映他後悔的嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不曾聽過。"],["王委員義川：不曾聽過，還繼續去？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是啊！"],["王委員義川：還繼續去？我們陸委會都沒反應？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有，我應該這樣講，就是說中國各級台辦都有KPI，就是一年要花多少預算，然後要拉臺灣多少青年學生到他們的譬如說湖北省，或是上海或是什麼，每一個地方都有這樣的KPI要拉多少人去。"],["王委員義川：對，然後就到我們的高中、大學嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：到臺灣的高中、大學，通常都不是透過校方，而是透過學校裡面的某一個老師。"],["王委員義川：透過老師就嚴重了，有時候用社團、用協會，還有老師直接在學校開課。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["王委員義川：說他就是要組一團去，通識課。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有錯。"],["王委員義川：組團去，去到那邊說要交多少又多少，到最後呢？到最後說有臺商出錢，所以同學，臺商對我們很好，你們基本上也不用交那麼多啦！有這種對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：當然有！現在譬如說就是你只要出機票費，然後落地食宿全包，還有一些什麼旅遊景點……"],["王委員義川：這些你們都沒有管制，這種被統來統去的你們都沒有管制？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們是長期都有在注意，如果有必要的話，我們就會動用兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一的合作行為，或是其他如果有涉及幫中共發展組織的話就是用反滲透法這樣。"],["王委員義川：第三個，上次我們臺灣隊得冠軍進入決賽，中國團的中國學生自己通知記者，就是他要說中國臺灣隊多厲害又多厲害，那幾個改天還可以再來嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們對於相關人士的發言都會有註記，註記的意思就是說當你想要再進來臺灣的時候，我們在審查的過程之中就會把你過去的言行考慮進去。"],["王委員義川：沒有啦！你就直接……那種身分就不能再來，那種還要審查？講得那麼誇張還要審查？中國棒球打不贏我們，連這種也要吃豆腐，什麼中國臺灣隊？什麼時候是中國臺灣隊？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員，你放心！我們所謂的註記審查就是很嚴厲的審查。"],["王委員義川：好啦！反正你們都是為了兩岸和諧，我知道啦！可是你們這陣子的手法也不錯啦！","第三，這可能是移民署，中國人要領中華民國的身分證，現在有一些算是在「鬥空」的，說什麼6年要改成4年，我們政府現在有說我們境外敵對勢力就一國而已，叫中國，對不對？"],["陳副署長建成：是。"],["王委員義川：結果他們可以領身分證的年限是最短的，越南、馬來西亞還更久，馬來西亞、越南、泰國那些不是我們的境外敵對勢力，他們要領我們的身分證更久，境外敵對勢力要領身分證現在是最短，移民署，你們是在「裝肖仔」喔！這是你們規定的還是誰規定的？"],["陳副署長建成：沒有，跟委員報告，事實上由8年轉到6年也都是經過那時候所有的修法，我們跟陸委會會商……"],["王委員義川：好，現在情勢變更了，什麼6改4，6要改到10，要改到4？改回去10，世界各國要來臺灣領身分證的都比照，哪有我們唯一的境外敵對勢力要領我們的身分證縮到最短，本末倒置，這樣對嗎？你們有在檢討嗎？"],["陳副署長建成：我們會會同陸委會，因為這是兩岸人民關係條例所規定的，我想委員的指導，我們會跟陸委會共同來……"],["王委員義川：陸委會，你們過去怎麼用一個最短的，中國人用最短，唯一境外敵對勢力領中華民國身分證，是全世界最想要來領中華民國身分證的外國人，期限卻最短。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：跟委員報告一下，外國人其實是4到8年，實際上是4年到8年。"],["王委員義川：你不要亂講，有人4年的嗎？你告訴我。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：大陸人是4年到6年。"],["王委員義川：他們有4年的嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：實際上外國人不可能4年拿到。"],["王委員義川：對嘛！你就說那個誇張的。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不可能4年就拿到，所以確實因為我們兩岸之間特殊的關係，兩岸人民關係條例從1992年到現在，其實中間經過很多次政黨輪替，很多規定老實講就是在那個年代有它的道理，但是現在未必有道理。"],["王委員義川：好，請你們回去研究一下。","最後我問一個問題，要申請入臺證、申請來臺依親的這種居留證或要申請中華民國身分證，這3個證有哪幾個要宣誓效忠中華民國？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：以陸配來說，沒有。"],["王委員義川：什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：以陸配來說都沒有。"],["王委員義川：中國人要來領中華民國身分證，他不用宣誓效忠中華民國？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有。"],["王委員義川：沒有！這不用改？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：目前的制度沒有。"],["王委員義川：這不用改？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個部分我們有看到很多立委提出來要修法的工作，所以我們覺得這個部分如果委員們的討論有取得共識，我們也支持。"],["王委員義川：你們啦！你們要主張啦！領中華民國身分證的不用宣誓效忠中華民國，卻先來說：我是中國人，我的國家是中華人民共和國，我就是為了要領中華民國身分證而已，我又不認同你們啦！我就是中國人，中華人民共和國那張比較好用，我又不認同你們中華民國，但是我就是要領那張。這會不會太誇張？這你們也要主動一點，我們立法院一大堆來「鬥空」的，那群都不會讓這個案子通過，國家要有態度，臺灣人在看的是態度，不會通過這沒辦法，不會通過是大罷免才能夠處理事情嘛！可是我們的政府要有態度啊！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["王委員義川：我們的政府這條，我說什麼4年、8年、6年的，最少啦！你不要說境外敵對勢力，最少也要各國都一樣，哪有全世界臺灣唯一的境外敵對勢力領中華民國身分證領最快，現在還要變4年，還不用效忠中華民國。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，謝謝委員提醒，這個部分我們會去做制度上的檢討。"],["王委員義川：好啦！加油啦！這陣子陸委會跟移民署表現得很好，繼續加油，我剛才建議的事情，你們要趕快表態，加油！改天如果又遇到你，我再問一次。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，謝謝。"],["王委員義川：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}