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275.637,"text":"不同階層的言論他的審查到底寬鬆還嚴格是不一樣的對不對一種叫做高價值的言論一種叫做中低價值的言論這個你大概知道吧所謂高價值言論就是什麼呢就像這個有關於政治我們今天列的這個政治、宗教、文學、科學、藝術這高價值的這個要做對於他言論自由限制要比較寬鬆他審查要比較寬鬆"},{"start":279.875,"end":303.593,"text":"對於中低價值的言論 什麼叫中低價值的言論 像商業的廣告 商業言論啦毀謗啦 像這個猥褻性言語啦 像仇恨性語言這個都是比較低階 這個要做嚴格的審查 對不對是不是這樣子 經理長這個理論你知道嗎所以一個 在學理上面要分得其實很清楚一個是高階的 一個是中低階的啊那我們今天就來看看這個個案啊"},{"start":304.727,"end":331.596,"text":"什麼叫做政治言論什麼叫做仇恨性言論一個是高階的言論自由一個是中低階的言論自由我今天如果說我主張台灣獨立這個是政治的言論對不對這是高階的保護他必須要比較寬鬆我主張台灣獨立這個可以吧但是我今天如果說我主張用暗殺來達成台灣獨立我主張用恐怖攻擊來達成台灣獨立"},{"start":333.291,"end":356.3,"text":"那這個就不是政治言論了喔這就馬上掉到所謂仇恨性言論對不對對不對好那我今天主張兩岸統一這個是政治言論對不對這個OK這個高階的受比較寬鬆的保護我今天主張學習台灣我主張用武力用戰爭用侵略用暴力"},{"start":358.592,"end":379.56,"text":"來達成兩岸統一我主張五統這個就不是政治言論了對不對這跟剛剛一樣他現在就掉進了所謂仇恨性言論了對不對是不是 廷長我剛這樣講對不對這是委員的見解我們尊重一個是政治言論一個是仇恨性言論這是不一樣的就像我今天說"},{"start":380.799,"end":408.832,"text":"我想跟你交往這是我的言論自由但是我跟你說你若不跟我交往我就打你這就不是言論自由了對不對是不是廷長我想跟你交往我可以這樣講吧我跟任何人都可以這樣講對不對這是言論自由我說你若不跟我交往我就打你這是不是言論自由這當然就不是言論自由了嘛這就是仇恨性的我剛剛講的仇恨性言論了嘛"},{"start":409.994,"end":435.588,"text":"分得這麼清楚所以不要混淆現在這個案子到底是所謂特主席所講的政治言論還是我剛剛講國際公約裡面所講的仇恨性言論這個要分清楚當然啦這個仇恨性言論這個仇恨性言論什麼樣限制言論自由都應該要有法律依據啦這個剛剛大家都有講"},{"start":436.656,"end":455.695,"text":"那我國對於仇恨性言論自由的限制有沒有法律依據廷長有沒有法律依據仇恨性言論我告訴你因為時間如果按照委員剛剛舉例子那可能像刑法有一些的規範行法有一些啦齁另外整個普遍的仇恨性言論有"},{"start":457.506,"end":477.514,"text":"有關於公民與政治權利國際公約也就是所謂的公正公約我國是立法院通過審議通過實施的對不對是按照公正公約裡面的第20條第一項任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳因應法律禁止之這個是不是跟國內法等同國內法的效力是是嗎"},{"start":479.437,"end":500.405,"text":"所以在國內現在這個案子我們鼓吹戰爭他就是違反目前的國內法這個是毫無意義的因為公正公約我們還立法了立法了一個公正公約的這個經濟社會文化公約兩公約的施行辦法已經把它國內法化了已經把它國內法化了好我們不要講國內法我們再講國際法我們講國際外國的判例在德國德國在這個"},{"start":508.929,"end":511.939,"text":"德國在2020年9月有一個叫做尼克斯"},{"start":513.212,"end":540.097,"text":"訴德國的一個案子他去求職結果他求職沒有被錄取原因是因為他在社群媒體上面有一張照片他的後面有一張圖是過去納粹的這個希姆萊親衛隊希姆萊的照片川軍服的照片掛在他後面所以他用這個理由不錄取他結果他訴訟到憲法法庭在德國是連掛個照片都不行納粹照片你比個納粹手勢都不行為什麼"},{"start":541.736,"end":556.247,"text":"這就是我講的仇恨性言論美國最近2025年1月17他們聯邦最高法院就直接他們就說有關TikTok不賣就禁他不違反憲法沒有違憲"},{"start":557.895,"end":578.044,"text":"他的理由是未來現在TikTok在收集的這些個資會危害到未來如果我們跟中國發生戰爭的時候危害到未來戰爭上面的危險他不是現在立即的危險喔他是針對未來的危險我現在就可以禁止所以這都非常清楚了所以在這次的這個案例 亞亞這個案例"},{"start":580.848,"end":602.321,"text":"我們大家在講 居然還有人跳出來把言論自由針對言論自由把政治性的這個言論跟這個仇恨性的言論分不清楚我剛剛講的我主張台獨是政治性言論我主張用恐怖攻擊實現台獨這不是政治言論我主張統一是政治言論我主張戰爭武力學習台灣武統這個不是政治性言論"},{"start":610.669,"end":612.79,"text":"所以我們來看看這次這個案例齁這次這個案例我看一下齁這個網紅齁網紅他在網路上講說大陸武力統一台灣已經不需要其他理由這是他講的他說這個實質不武統這是不對的"},{"start":637.349,"end":648.542,"text":"他說希望四川艦隊軍功利第一這就是收復台灣這就是武統啊這就是武統啊現在我請陸委會請回這個廳長請回我請陸委會梁副主委你在上來的時間我闡述一下"},{"start":657.674,"end":681.402,"text":"你在飛機上面講說我要炸毀這台飛機這當然不是言論自由我在集滿人潮的捷運車廂上面說我要殺光捷運所有的乘客這當然不是言論自由我到鄰居家門口說我要放火燒房子這當然不是言論自由那為什麼我到這個國家來說我要武力學習你這個國家變成言論自由呢為什麼"},{"start":685.543,"end":710.119,"text":"主委這次這案子這三位網紅他們有沒有中華民國的國籍他們有沒有領中華民國身份證他們沒有中華民國的國籍只有居留他們只有居留嘛換句話說第一個我們所討論的層次有關於國民的所有的保障跟他們都還沒有關係對不對他們還不是國民嘛對不對是對他們只是居留許可而已是根據兩岸人群關係條例的居留許可對不對對"},{"start":712.347,"end":738.388,"text":"這就好像住在你家裡的人如果是你兒子你老婆他是家人如果是你朋友從南部上來住在家裡你說可以我可以住你家嗎你說可以那你就是拘留嘛對不對但是你今天是我兒子你來住我家裡那你是家人啊那你今天一個客人你說一個朋友說我來住你家你說好到你客廳以後說我要放火燒你家我要殺光你全家"},{"start":739.813,"end":751.635,"text":"那我說我沒有打他我只說不好意思我就不讓你你就不要住在我家請你出去這是不是很合理是那我們這一次我們這個撤銷居留許可是不是就是這樣的情形"},{"start":753.66,"end":772.397,"text":"對我們來說就是任何人如果他只有居留身份的話所以他實際上並沒有辦法和中華民國國民做到同樣的權利義務沒有錯所以他如果只有居留身份的話那我們就是根據兩岸關係條例處理沒錯 我們這次所有都是根據兩岸關係"},{"start":773.798,"end":783.043,"text":"兩岸關係條例上面的規定所做的行政行為根本就不牽涉到言論自由的問題對不對所以我想最後現在這社會是似是而非的這樣的說法這概念這麼清楚"},{"start":796.039,"end":820.971,"text":"北一女還貴為北一女的老師說什麼我們把中國視為境外敵對勢力那我們家人住在大陸我的親人住在中國我的親人變成境外敵對勢力講這種沒有常識的講法二次大戰的時候你有去跟蔣介石講說你為什麼對日宣戰我有家人住在日本啊你為什麼把日本變成敵人那我的家人不就變成敵人了毫無常識啊"},{"start":826.516,"end":851.494,"text":"所以這一次這個就是一個照妖鏡這就是海水退了你就知道誰沒有穿褲子在這個時候這次這三個網紅的案子跳出來講言論自由的人請大家就看清楚他們有沒有穿褲子以上好 謝謝那我們先做那個會議的程序宣告稍後再吳世耀委員詢問完畢後休息五分鐘那下一位我們請王宏威委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":531,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時28分）主席，我應該是等一下要請司法院的列席代表，不過今天來的是行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長，可能跟我們今天主題……但是因為有一些是牽涉司法院的權責，還是等一下要請我們程廳長上來。我想我們今天的主題，主席列了這個主題叫做「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報告。這個講法其實它有兩個層次，第一個，在我國現在制度裡面，言論自由的界線在哪裡？這是第一個層次的問題。第二個層次是國家介入特定的政治言論，它的界線在哪裡？它其實是兩個層次的，一個是言論自由，廣泛的言論自由，另外一個是國家介入特定政治言論。我想主席今天會列這樣的主題，應該就是跟時事有關，要不然為什麼今天不是討論我國宗教自由之界線，而是討論言論自由之界線？一定是主席對於現在這些時事，認為有一些討論的必要，他才會列這個主題。所以今天這個主題有很多種討論方式，第一種，你可以像政論節目一樣的討論，你也可以做法學跟學術、學理上面的討論，但是這種時事議題，難免就會牽涉到對於政治的評價了，所以我想我們還是先從學理上面來談，我儘量希望從學理上來談，而不是以政論節目的角度來談。我現在是不是請司法院的程廳長？"],["主席：麻煩廳長。"],["程廳長怡怡：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：廳長好。有關我國言論自由的界線，包括國家介入特定政治言論的界線，言論自由的界線，這些部分在我國的法制上面，過去的大法官會議解釋跟現在的憲法法庭判決，是不是沒有討論過這些事情？主席今天列這個案子，是不是因為過去我們的法制上面都沒有在討論言論自由的界線？"],["程廳長怡怡：委員，其實大法官已經做了多號的解釋……"],["沈委員發惠：有多號的解釋啦！我的PPT上面都有寫，大法官對於言論自由界線做了非常多的解釋。我們就學理上面來講，我想大家學法律的，這個應該都看得懂，有關言論自由大概就幾個層次的討論，一個是事前審查的問題，另外還有一些象徵性的言論，像焚燒國旗，我沒有講話，但是我用動作來表達言論的這種象徵性言論，這兩個大概不在今天的討論範圍。再來就是事後審查，這是一個重點，事後審查目前學理上面大概採取所謂雙軌跟雙階理論，廳長知道吧？知道嘛！所謂雙軌就是非針對性言論的內容跟針對性言論的內容，不是針對言論內容的言論自由問題，例如受刑人能不能對外通信、受刑人能不能對外表示什麼，就是身分，它跟內容無關的；另外就是跟內容有關的，這樣雙軌，對不對？雙軌裡面，我們今天討論的大概就是針對言論內容之限制，今天主席所列所謂特定政治言論，顯然就是針對言論的內容，針對言論內容裡面，大概學理上面又把它分成雙階，針對兩個不同階層的言論，它的審查到底寬鬆還是嚴格，是不一樣的，一種叫做高價值的言論，一種叫做中低價值的言論，這個你大概知道吧？所謂高價值言論就是什麼呢？就像有關於政治，我們今天列的政治，宗教、文學、科學、藝術，這是高價值的，對於其言論自由限制要比較寬鬆，審查要比較寬鬆；對於中低價值的言論，什麼叫中低價值言論？像商業的廣告、商業言論、毀謗、猥褻性言語、仇恨性語言，這些都是比較低階，這個要做嚴格的審查，是不是這樣子？廳長。"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個理論你知道嘛？"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以在學理上面，它其實分得很清楚，一個是高階的，一個是中低階的，我們今天就來看看這個個案，什麼叫做政治言論、什麼叫做仇恨性言論，一個是高階的言論自由，一個是中低階的言論自由，我今天如果說我主張臺灣獨立，這是政治的言論，對不對？這是高階的保護，它必須要比較寬鬆。我主張臺灣獨立，這個可以吧？但是我今天如果說我主張用暗殺來達成臺灣獨立、我主張用恐怖攻擊來達成臺灣獨立，這個就不是政治言論了，這就馬上掉到所謂仇恨性言論，對不對？"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好。那我今天主張兩岸統一，這是政治言論，這個OK，這個高階的受比較寬鬆的保護；但是我今天主張血洗臺灣，我主張用武力、用戰爭、用侵略、用暴力來達成兩岸統一，我主張武統，這就不是政治言論了，對不對？這就跟剛剛一樣，它現在就掉進了所謂仇恨性言論了，是不是？廳長，我剛剛這樣講對不對？"],["程廳長怡怡：對於委員的見解，我們尊重。"],["沈委員發惠：一個是政治言論，一個是仇恨性言論，這是不一樣的，就像我今天說我想跟你交往，這是我的言論自由，但是我跟你說如果你不跟我交往，我就打你，這就不是言論自由了，是不是？"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：廳長，我想跟你交往，我可以這樣講吧？我跟任何人都可以這樣講，對不對？這是言論自由；我說你不跟我交往，我就打你，這是不是言論自由？這當然就不是言論自由了嘛！這就是仇恨性的，我剛剛講的是仇恨性言論了嘛！分得這麼清楚，所以不要混淆。現在這個案子到底是所謂主席所講的政治言論，還是我剛剛提到國際公約裡面所講的仇恨性言論，這個要分清楚。當然，這個仇恨性言論，什麼樣的限制言論自由都應該要有法律依據，剛剛大家都有講，那麼我國對於仇恨性言論的言論自由限制有沒有法律依據？廳長，有沒有法律依據？"],["程廳長怡怡：如果按照委員剛剛舉的例子，那可能像刑法有一些規範。"],["沈委員發惠：刑法有一些啦。另外，整個普遍的仇恨性言論，有！也有規定。有關於公民與政治權利國際公約，也就是所謂的公政公約，我國是立法院審議通過實施的，對不對？"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：按照公政公約第二十條第一項「任何鼓吹戰爭之宣傳，應以法律禁止之。」這個是不是等同國內法的效力？"],["程廳長怡怡：是。"],["沈委員發惠：是嘛！所以在國內，現在這個案子鼓吹戰爭，他就是違反目前的國內法，這個是毫無疑義的，因為公政公約，我們還立法了一個公民與政治權利國際公約及經濟社會文化權利國際公約施行法，已經把它國內法化了。好，我們不要講國內法，我們再講外國的判例，在德國，德國在2020年9月有一個叫做尼克斯訴德國的案子，他去求職，結果他求職沒有被錄取，原因是他在社群媒體上面的一張照片，他的後面有一張圖是過去納粹希姆萊親衛隊，希姆萊穿軍服的照片掛在他後面，所以用這個理由不錄取他，結果他訴訟到憲法法庭，在德國是連掛個納粹照片都不行，你比個納粹手勢都不行，為什麼？這就是我講的仇恨性言論。2025年1月17日美國聯邦最高法院裁定有關美國對TikTok「不賣就禁」不違反憲法、沒有違憲，理由是現在TikTok在蒐集的這些個資，未來如果我們跟中國發生戰爭的時候，會危害到戰爭上面的危險，它不是現在立即的危險，它是針對未來的危險，我現在就可以禁止，所以這都非常清楚了。","在這次亞亞的這個案例，居然還有人跳出來講言論自由，針對言論自由，把政治性的言論跟仇恨性的言論分不清楚。就像我剛剛講的，我主張臺獨是政治性言論，我主張用恐怖攻擊實現臺獨，這不是政治性言論；我主張統一是政治性言論，我主張戰爭、武力、血洗臺灣、武統，這不是政治性言論。我們來看看這次的這個案例，這個網紅在網路上說「大陸武力統一臺灣，已經不需要其他理由」，這是他講的，他說「遲遲不武統是不對的」，他說「希望四川艦成軍第一功就是收復臺灣」，這就是武統啊！","我請陸委會梁副主委。在你上台的時間，我闡述一下，你在飛機上說要炸掉、炸毀這架飛機，這當然不是言論自由；在擠滿人潮的捷運車廂上說要殺光捷運上所有乘客，這當然不是言論自由；到鄰居家門口說要放火燒房子，這當然也不是言論自由，那為什麼到這個國家來說我要武力血洗你這個國家，卻變成言論自由呢？為什麼？請問副主委，這次這個案子的這三位網紅，他們有沒有中華民國國籍？有沒有領中華民國身分證？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：他們沒有中華民國國籍，只有居留。"],["沈委員發惠：他們只有居留嘛！換句話說，第一，我們所討論的層次，有關於國民的所有保障，跟他們都還沒有關係，對不對？他們都還不是國民，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["沈委員發惠：他們只是居留許可而已，根據兩岸人民關係條例的居留許可，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["沈委員發惠：這就好像住在你家裡的人，如果是你兒子、老婆，那他們是家人；如果是朋友從南部上來，問你可以住在你家嗎？你說可以，那就是居留，對不對？今天你的兒子住在你家裡，那是你的家人，但如果是一個朋友說要來住你家，你說好，但到了你的客廳後，說要放火燒你家，要殺光你全家，而你並沒有打他，只是說：不好意思，我不能讓你住在我家，請你出去。這是不是很合理？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我們這一次撤銷他們的居留許可，是不是就是這樣的情形？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對我們來說，任何人如果只有居留身分，實際上並沒有辦法和中華民國國民享有同樣的權利義務……"],["沈委員發惠：沒有錯。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：他如果只有居留身分，那我們就是根據兩岸關係條例處理。"],["沈委員發惠：沒錯，我們這次就是根據兩岸關係條例的規定所做的行政行為，根本不牽涉到言論自由的問題，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["沈委員發惠：好，不好意思，副主委請回。最後，我要說的是，現在社會有很多似是而非的說法，概念這麼清楚，還貴為北一女的老師，說什麼我們把中國視為境外敵對勢力，那他的親人住在大陸、住在中國，就變成是境外敵對勢力！講這種沒有常識的講法，那麼二次大戰的時候，你有去跟蔣介石說為什麼要對日宣戰，你有家人住在日本啊！為什麼把日本變成敵人，那麼你的家人不就變成敵人了嗎？毫無常識！所以這一次就是一個照妖鏡，海水退了，才知道誰沒有穿褲子，在這個時候，針對這三個網紅的案子跳出來講言論自由的人，請大家看清楚他們有沒有穿褲子。以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們先作會議程序的宣告：稍後在吳思瑤委員詢答完畢後，休息5分鐘。","下一位請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","王義川","沈發惠","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","許宇甄","羅智強","張啓楷"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育\n部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相\n關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143501_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}