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在黨委員 先進列席的政府機關署長 官員 會長 共同夥伴 媒體 紀律女士先生雖然大家都問署長 還是要讓部長出來走走路 散散步來 請部長和署長好 有請部長 署長還沒接上去 等一下下"},{"start":40.455,"end":47.976,"text":"那個還沒接上去二委員好現在第一頁 部長好 署長好 來第一頁好 這個 請問部長 這邊怎麼唸台灣國小世界盃我去年去參加的時候 他說 台灣國小世界盃"},{"start":69.662,"end":94.18,"text":"其實呢的確有人這麼斷句念台灣國小世界盃我也覺得蠻認同的啦因為國小世界盃這樣的分林賽前面有委員問到了但是呢很積極在推他讓台灣大大的增加了曝光所以呢難怪我們那些在屏東踢足球的說我們去參加台灣國的小世界盃小朋友參加的了解齁所以要繼續支持好不好可以嗎 部長"},{"start":98.262,"end":117.233,"text":"當然好 謝謝 我們開始正題啦 下一張其實剛剛有很多委員在關心的啦我相信部長署長跟我一樣都沒有參加過這個所謂的地下賭局 應該沒有啦就算有也不能承認啦不過小時候有沒有聽聞一些長輩去那種地下賭場的 有沒有"},{"start":118.922,"end":142.581,"text":"也沒有聽過 有啦 不一定可能年齡 還有可能聽說中輩去的地下請問一下 你認為 下一頁喔 上一頁 上一頁目前我們地下賭盤跟運動彩券 什麼樣的差異賠率 大家都說毫不猶豫賠率為什麼地下賭局的賠率會比較高"},{"start":143.8,"end":152.186,"text":"我先問一下,這要問保證啦一般我們如果在地下交通的做裝業的莊家是抽多少你看馬上就去講5%我合理推論他只是聽說啦抽5%嘛那另外95%的賭資是不是拿來當彩金對不對那為什麼地下賭盤他可以開的賠率比較高因為他收的什麼"},{"start":172.23,"end":199.54,"text":"他收的中間的抽錢 抽得很少啦但是我們台灣運彩呢 不一樣對不對 來所以部長喔 請先回那我們先問署長就好了來 接下來往下走運彩的賠率低啊所以很多民眾跑去打地下球板是不是那剛剛署長有回答啦我們是不是運彩基金為什麼運彩條例為什麼寫總金額獎金支出不得超過 為什麼"},{"start":201.107,"end":228.825,"text":"超過78%包委員他是一整年度的平均因為他有22%的這個成本那成本裡面包含他的社會責任有10%要進到運動發展基金培育人才其他是經銷商以及發行機構來對付所以我們來看一下運彩條例的第六點說總金額不得超過78%但是發行機構提出營運計畫維持配套基金主管計畫核定者不在此限所以有沒有空間"},{"start":229.545,"end":238.339,"text":"包委員他的意思是指說你在一整年你的不同的賽事你可能有高有低但是一整年平均下來不能超過78他沒有這樣寫啊他是說"},{"start":240.745,"end":265.182,"text":"每一單項的運動財券獎金單次發行的不得超過總金額的78%但是偶爾可以超過但是整年下來不能這個條文我讀不出這個意思同學當然有特殊原因像在我們在疫情期間的時候特殊狀況我們會有一些特殊的做法那那個特殊的話有沒有符合我們法律的規定有符合它准許你可以金主管機關核定的不在此限是不是這樣"},{"start":267.023,"end":273.118,"text":"是嗎我們會有獨島小局去審如果他們有提出來的話我們會去審他我知道署長都很謹慎我們還是要看一下"},{"start":274.079,"end":299.991,"text":"其實呢運動財運發行條例我們的獎金支出只能78%我們看一下香港是82%有些是90%90%跟我們台灣的地下球板幾乎差不多了對不對所以香港的呢可能他沒有去提撥給這些運動基金你所知道香港的這82%他們有把他們的獎金拿去運產拿去做什麼運動支持嗎有沒有包委員只有台灣是獨有的10%全部進運動基金是的"},{"start":300.851,"end":317.644,"text":"所以說因為台灣獨有這10%所以台灣的運財要跟其他外國的縱使是合法的都有一個競爭力上的困難你去香港的話就是82%的獎金拿出來啊所以它賠率讓人高嘛那這怎麼去克服?蘇長有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":318.144,"end":339.434,"text":"報委員我們跟經銷商在談就是說希望在一定的收入營收之下我們可以在政府的這個10%的比例可以做一個降低讓他們有更多的空間去激勵經銷商來營運抱歉我剛剛有一個比例其實一個比例我們大概是10%是基金12%是行政費78%所以這個行政作業費佔了12%大概你不能動那個10%只能從這12%去調對不對"},{"start":347.078,"end":353.521,"text":"包委員這12%就等於是經銷商他們的收入我不覺得他們會願意做退讓所以我說其實就是這樣子這跟稱呼抽稅一樣"},{"start":359.81,"end":384.513,"text":"你關稅提高進口量降低你能抽到的稅反而變少但是你的關稅降低進口量增加總體的你拿到的絕對金額是多的看比例行政就是銷售的發行單位他好像會說比例降低了嘛但是如果發行量增加很多去地下球板的跑來這裡他是不是總total的他的可營運的作業費提高"},{"start":385.314,"end":405.598,"text":"我同意,因為這是更產業的思維,這是對的。但是因為第三屆已經簽約,這部分我們可能要第四屆才能夠來進行。好,再來我們講第二個事情,因為今天是審條例。運採條例的行政法本席的版本有加上這第四項,但是行政院為什麼把它刪掉?"},{"start":406.567,"end":434.75,"text":"報告委員因為其實這個部分在一般的刑法就已經有規定所以沒有必要在這邊繼續在名列啦好你說因為刑法有規定所以我行政法就不名列嘛我們看一下刑法是什麼妨礙公務罪要以執行者是公務員行政機關滅證罪未證罪這是另外是不是但是我們往下看行政法有跟刑法不能同時存在的嗎我們酒駕"},{"start":436.192,"end":460.333,"text":"酒駕如果在這個標準,0.15到0.25之間是行政法,累犯無上限扣掉照,對不對?有沒有行政法?有。但是酒測值超過0.25的,就是什麼?公共危險,不能安全價值,這是刑法。所以行政法跟刑法,可能它的行為對象的程度不同,有可能是客體不同。所以本來行政法跟刑法就可以同時存在,往下看。"},{"start":461.013,"end":473.976,"text":"但是你現在運採條例你知道嗎運採條例前面他說的是什麼往前跳兩頁他說的是法人團體這是不是行政機關有沒有行政權有沒有構成妨礙公務沒有"},{"start":475.134,"end":492.448,"text":"但是呢如果我們行政機關我們體育署我們要去調查他要主動配合他不主動配合我就可以罰喔但是你來看一下滅政罪跟未政罪往下跳滅政罪跟未政罪第一個妨礙公務要必須對公務員強暴脅迫我們行政法如果說有球團作弊他只要沒有去妨礙公務員他就不構成"},{"start":501.347,"end":523.453,"text":"滅政罪我必須檢察官舉證他有偽造、變造或陰秘或隱匿證據或者說他做虛偽陳述這必須針對的是什麼?針對的是自然人球團是自然人嗎?教練可能是啊 球員可能是啊配合打假球 放水這個裡面行政法他沒有妨礙公務啊"},{"start":524.704,"end":552.887,"text":"你要舉證他有什麼有這些行為舉證之所在敗訴之所在行政法要求我要調查他有沒有放水打假球我必須要有這些內容的主動陳述但是跳回去行政法怎麼樣再往上行政法只要你不主動配合我就可以罰你了解沒有要不要舉證我叫你把資料交出來我問你那天你跑去哪裡有沒有跟那些莊家那個叫什麼"},{"start":555.238,"end":565.793,"text":"賭職的那個聚賭的這些抽頭的人見面吃飯有沒有配合調查他不配合調查那我就可以行政罰了了不了解"},{"start":566.724,"end":588.667,"text":"所以我要說明的是說 我們在整個條例的設計上第一 行政罰跟刑罰是可以並存的第二 刑罰罰的是自然人他的妨礙權利的課題是公務員當我們要確保運採 運動健全發展不會被職業賭博滲透我們必須行政機關 掌有一定的要求他能夠配合調查"},{"start":589.688,"end":609.313,"text":"他如果不配合調查你就是罰他什麼 行政罰嘛他可以行政救濟嘛但是刑法就很嚴格刑法你必須證明說球員或教練有跟這些賭客有一些 你有證據證明他有隱匿 有滅證罪 有未證罪不然的話你罰不到他往下看 我們看結論往前跳一下"},{"start":610.828,"end":626.958,"text":"好所以呢 個人如果觸犯運彩的第21條第4項行政院說我們回歸刑法 我們沒有問題對不對 個人自然能觸犯了嘛他妨礙公安怎麼樣嘛但是如果是法人跟團體他違反這第4項目前你根據刑法你罰不到"},{"start":628.462,"end":649.547,"text":"這樣了解差別了齁我們那個體育署跟我們教育部有法務嘛你們回去研究一下因為我們今天是審法條所以我希望呢你們跟行政院也溝通一下今天委員的提案我們希望未來能夠確保我們的運動在職業運動的過程當中不會運踩的發行造成的我們就要防度過去看結論"},{"start":651.175,"end":669.697,"text":"我們就是希望說除了保障10%的運動中基金提撥外請你檢討獎金的支出率提高的投注誘因遏止地下賭盤的壯大而且也不遂損及到承銷商的權益第二運彩條例保留未配合調查的行政法配合刑法的相關法則才能完善防弊"},{"start":670.658,"end":687.225,"text":"署長 回去要不要研究一下會 我們會把委員的意見帶回去研究帶回去給誰研究 給部長研究嗎我們會跟法務部一起來研究這部分什麼時候可以給本席一個答覆這部分 我們一個月內應該是可以一個月內 好那就兩個題目 謝謝您 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時36分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。雖然大家都問署長，但還是要讓部長出來走走路，散散步。請部長和署長。"],["主席：請部長、署長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好，署長好。請問部長這要怎麼唸？"],["鄭部長英耀：臺灣國小世界盃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：去年我去參加的時候，有人說是臺灣國、小世界盃。的確有人這麼斷句，唸成臺灣國、小世界盃，我也滿認同的，前面有委員問到國小世界盃的分齡賽，政府也很積極在推，因為讓臺灣大大地增加了曝光機會。難怪那些在屏東踢足球的朋友說，我們去參加臺灣國的小世界盃，小朋友參加的。了解？所以要繼續支持，好不好？可以嗎，部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，我們開始進入正題。","剛剛有很多委員關心，相信部長、署長跟我一樣，都沒有參加過所謂的地下賭局，應該沒有啦，就算有也不能承認。小時候有沒有聽過一些長輩說去地下賭場，有沒有？也沒有聽過？有，部長的年齡可能有聽長輩說去地下賭場。請問目前的地下賭盤跟運動彩券有什麼樣的差異？"],["鄭部長英耀：賠率。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大家都毫不猶豫就說賠率。為什麼地下賭盤的賠率會比較高？我想要問部長。一般地下賭場莊家抽多少？主席說5%。我合理推論這是聽說，抽5%，所以另外95%的賭資是不是就拿來當彩金，對不對？為什麼地下賭盤的賠率可以開得比較高？因為中間的抽成抽得比較少，但臺灣運彩不一樣。部長先請回，我們請問署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：運彩的賠率低，所以很多民眾跑去打地下球版，是不是？其實剛剛署長有回答，但請問運彩條例為什麼寫獎金支出不得超過78%？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這是一整年度的平均，且有22%的成本，成本裡面包含社會責任，所以有10%要進入運動發展基金培育人才，其他由經銷商及發行機構對分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們來看一下，運彩條例第六條提到，總金額不得超過78%，但發行機構提出營運維持計畫或配套，經主管機關核定者不在此限。所以有沒有空間？"],["鄭署長世忠：它的意思是指你在一整年，不同的賽事你可以有高有低，但是一整年平均下來不能超過78%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它沒有這樣寫啊！它是說每一單項的運動彩券獎金單次發行不得超過總金額的78%，但是偶爾可以超過，整年下來不能超過，這個條文我讀不出這個意思。"],["鄭署長世忠：當然有特殊原因啦！像我們在疫情期間的時候，特殊狀況我們也會有一些特殊的做法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那個特殊狀況有沒有符合我們法律的規定？有符合啊！它准許你可以，經主管機關核定者不在此限，是不是這樣？是嘛？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們會有督導小組去審……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然啦！"],["鄭署長世忠：如果他們有提出來的話，我們會去審查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道署長很謹慎，但我們還是要看一下，其實根據運動彩券發行條例，我們的獎金支出只能有78%，香港是82%，有些海外合法機構是90%，90%跟我們臺灣的地下球版幾乎差不多了，對不對？所以香港的可能它沒有去提撥給運動基金，你所知道香港的這82%，他們有把他們的運彩拿去做什麼運動支持嗎？有沒有？"],["鄭署長世忠：只有臺灣是獨有的10%全部進運動發展基金。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，因為臺灣獨有的這10%，所以臺灣的運彩要跟其他外國的比，縱使是合法的，都有競爭力上的困難，你去投注香港的，它就是82%的獎金拿出來啊！所以它的賠率當然高嘛！這要怎麼去克服？署長有沒有什麼想法？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們跟經銷商在談，希望在一定的營收之下，我們在政府這個10%的比例可以降低，讓他們有更多的空間去激勵經銷商來營運。"],["鍾委員佳濱：抱歉，我剛剛有提到一個比例，我們大概10%是基金，12%是行政費，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：78%，這個行政作業費占了12%，大概你不能動那個10%，只能從這12%去調，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：這12%等於是經銷商的收入，我不覺得他們會願意做退讓。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實就是這樣子，這跟政府抽稅一樣，你關稅提高進口量降低，你能抽到的稅反而變少，但是你的關稅降低進口量增加，總體你拿到的金額絕對是多的。看比例，銷售的發行單位它會說比例降低了嘛！但是如果發行量增加，很多去地下球版的跑來這裡，它是不是總total可營運的作業費提高？這樣你有想懂了？"],["鄭署長世忠：我同意，因為這是更產業的一個思維，這是對的，但是因為第3屆已經簽約，這部分我們可能要第4屆才能夠來進行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。再來，我們講第二件事情，因為今天是審條例，運彩條例的行政罰，本席的版本有加上第四項，但是行政院為什麼把它刪掉？"],["鄭署長世忠：因為這個部分在一般的刑法已經有規定，所以沒有必要在這邊再明列。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你說因為刑法有規定，所以我行政罰就不明列嘛！我們看一下，刑法是什麼？妨害公務罪，執行者是公務員、行政機關，滅證罪、偽證罪這是另外，是不是？","我們往下看，行政罰與刑罰不能同時存在嗎？酒駕如果在0.15到0.25這個標準之間是行政罰，累犯無上限，吊扣駕照，對不對？有沒有行政罰？有。但是酒測值超過0.25的就是什麼？公共危險，不能安全駕駛，這是刑罰，所以行政罰跟刑罰可能它的行為對象程度不同，也有可能是客體不同，所以本來行政罰與刑罰就可以同時存在。","但是你現在運彩條例，你知道嗎？運彩條例前面它說的是什麼？它說的是法人、團體，這是不是行政機關？有沒有行政權？有沒有構成妨害公務？沒有。但是如果我們行政機關，我們體育署要去調查，它要主動配合，它不主動配合，我就可以罰哦！","我們來看一下滅證罪跟偽證罪。第一個，妨害公務，必須要對公務員強暴脅迫。行政罰，如果說有球團作弊，它只要沒有去妨害公務員，它就不構成。滅證罪，必須檢察官舉證他有偽造、變造、湮滅或隱匿證據，或者說他做虛偽陳述，這必須針對的是什麼？針對的是自然人，球團是自然人嗎？教練可能是啊！球員可能是啊！配合打假球放水，這個裡面行政罰，他沒有妨害公務啊！你要舉證他有這些行為，「舉證之所在，敗訴之所在」，行政罰要求我要調查他有沒有放水打假球，我必須要有這些內容的主動陳述。","但是我們跳回去看第四項，行政罰怎麼樣？行政罰只要你不主動配合，我就可以罰你，瞭解沒有？要不要舉證？我叫你把資料交出來，我要問你那一天跑去哪裡，有沒有跟那些莊家、跟聚賭這些抽頭的人見面吃飯？有沒有？配合調查啊！他不配合調查，那我就可以裁罰，這樣瞭不瞭解？","我要說明的是，我們在整個條例的設計上，第一，行政罰與刑罰是可以並存的。第二，刑罰罰的是自然人，他妨害權利的客體是公務員，當我們要確保運彩、運動健全發展不會被職業賭博滲透，行政機關必須掌有一定的權限要求他能夠配合調查，他如果不配合調查，你就是罰他什麼？行政罰嘛！他可以行政救濟嘛！但是刑罰就很嚴格，刑罰你必須證明球員或教練有跟這些賭客……你有證據證明他有隱匿，有滅證罪、偽證罪，不然的話你罰不到他。","我們往下看。個人如果觸犯運彩條例的第二十一條第四項，行政院說回歸刑法，我沒有問題，對不對？個人、自然人觸犯了嘛！他妨害公務還是怎麼樣嘛！但是如果是法人跟團體違反這個第四項，目前根據刑法你罰不到，這樣瞭解差別了？體育署跟教育部有法務，你們回去研究一下，因為今天是審法條，所以我希望你們跟行政院也溝通一下，今天委員的提案，我們希望未來能夠確保在職業運動的過程當中，不會因為運彩的發行……我們叫做防杜過去。","看結論，我們希望除了保障10%的運動基金提撥外，請你檢討獎金的支出率，提高投注誘因，遏止地下賭盤的壯大，而且也不會損及到承銷商的權益。第二，運彩條例保留未配合調查的行政罰，配合刑法的相關罰則才能完善防弊，署長，回去要不要研究一下？"],["鄭署長世忠：會，我們會把委員的意見帶回去研究，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：帶回去給誰研究？給部長研究嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們會跟法務部一起來研究這部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候可以給本席一個答復？"],["鄭署長世忠：一個月內應該是可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，一個月內，那就兩個題目，謝謝您，謝謝主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，謝謝署長。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,20-1","speakers":["林宜瑾","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","李坤城","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","林楚茵","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","徐富癸","葉元之","蘇清泉","黃捷","林沛祥","林德福","顏寬恒"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-04-09"],"gazette_id":"1143501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二、審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；\n三、審查委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員葛\n如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷\n瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查委\n員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員\n王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；八、審\n查委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；\n九、審查委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1143501_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}