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謝謝委員其實我們這個事情不是現在才做其實在去年我們就整個清查所有陸配還沒有繳交除籍證明的這一些人因為如果依照兩岸關係條例9條1那時候的規範他必須在"},{"start":93.404,"end":114.066,"text":"台灣地區人民在大陸地區取得戶籍或者使用大陸護照他必須放棄在六個月之內在當時的立法的時候去年什麼時候開始我們去年下半年開始我們就根據這一些因為現在處置的方式是如何"},{"start":114.446,"end":137.928,"text":"是要請還沒有我們至少他沒有檢據放棄原籍證明的這些陸配他必須要來補正相關資料沒有補正的話無法補正的情況會怎麼樣其實在無法補正我們也正在跟陸委會在做一個協調我們針對所謂他因故無法"},{"start":138.829,"end":163.838,"text":"去回到大陸也可能他是因為年紀比較大或者身體的一個健康狀況所以導致他無法回去那這些事情我們現在其實移民署我們已經有所謂的設立專線還有專友提供民眾政府的專線確定可以處理事情嗎我們是要把"},{"start":164.895,"end":189.245,"text":"民眾他這一些沒有辦法回去提示這一些除疾證明的這些人把他們困難點回饋給我們我們彙整各種態樣它是什麼樣的一個狀態那處理的標準是什麼當然現在正在做所以我們希望說所以還沒有標準還在那沒有標準的話你們處置的方式已經出來了嗎"},{"start":191.077,"end":219.939,"text":"這幾個月內沒有完成會怎麼樣現在目前是三個月之內那如果說看民眾的一個那你太陽的規則標準都還沒有出來就已經準備先處置了嗎應該我們還在研議那這個時間應該先豁免一下吧各種太陽不同的話要如何處置你要一個standard出來嘛你不能說現在立刻就來執行三個月的事情嘛"},{"start":221.226,"end":222.05,"text":"那梁副主委也有什麼話要說"},{"start":224.395,"end":252.457,"text":"應該是這樣 我們根據法律原則上我們會要求凡是沒有繳交的都要繳交這是原則那現在我們收到有一些民眾他陳情說他有什麼困難他沒辦法回去拿那針對這些陳情的個案我們會個別來甄別但是我也要跟委員報告這個事情並不是從現在才開始就像副署長講的從去年就開始清查"},{"start":254.258,"end":266.191,"text":"那在清查過程之中有一些也不是現在才有人說他沒辦法回去但是有一些狀況是他可能當事人講的不一定是真實的狀況"},{"start":268.488,"end":291.393,"text":"有些當事人他只是不願意或是懶得回去或他不願意花機票錢或者說他在大陸有欠債或是刑事責任等等這些所以這些東西不能一概而論那我們的原則上就是大家所以副主委剛剛有說明到有很多不同的態樣但請把它條列化出來好不好"},{"start":292.948,"end":305.734,"text":"條例畫出來讓大家有一個讓人民幸福的一個準則法律比較很清楚的條例是我們可以盡量去做但是因為陳情的樣態其實千變萬化"},{"start":308.976,"end":335.111,"text":"千變萬化政府存在不就要處理這些問題嗎那你到目前為止我們比較可以有共識的譬如說你是因為長期臥病在床健康因素你沒有辦法回去拿這個部分我覺得應該是會比較有共識但是其他的部分他說有很多各式各樣的理由那我們不一定都會採納梁副主委"},{"start":336.721,"end":365.404,"text":"我想不是今天的詢問而已 這個問題受到大眾的矚目請你們去商量以後條例是很明確的公告周知 讓大家有所預詢的方向那個主席我想這個事情啊本席從今天早上聽到現在啊不能這樣含糊過關啊一個很清楚的方式是什麼要讓人民能夠知曉"},{"start":368.411,"end":391.619,"text":"我們會再開會也請陸委會還有移民署要很明確的遊戲規則讓我們了解我梁副主委我本席在這裡很清楚請教一個問題我們現在是把一萬四千名陸配所有不管任何年限現在都要繳交是嗎"},{"start":393.131,"end":418.468,"text":"根據法律是的那請問你法律什麼時候訂的2004年修改的3月1號對那2004年3月1號以前的呢法律規定就是2004年那次修改之前如果他沒有繳交初期證明的話他就必須要在六個月之內繳交如果他在六個月之內沒有繳交就是取消台灣的身份"},{"start":419.642,"end":446.33,"text":"法律規定就是這樣2004年3月1號加6個月9月1號9月1號以後你如果入委會還沒有執行你秘書也還沒有執行是不是也過了已經追溯年限了就算大家當時拿一個假的來都已經超過了追溯期的20年"},{"start":449.422,"end":475.692,"text":"2004年9月1號到現在是多少年那個報告委員從我們兩岸關係條例來講這個不能有雙重身份這件事情沒有什麼追溯年限的問題你就算過了50年你有雙重身份還是不許剛剛這個秘書來puzzle你一下那這一點為什麼之前都沒有公告周知呢"},{"start":477.035,"end":491.828,"text":"這是政府的疏失啊政府的疏失應該自行承受啊怎麼叫老百姓來承擔呢政府官員廢職職務從2004年修法到現在 這中間兩黨輪流執政現在梁副主委 本席現在要求你"},{"start":503.393,"end":518.329,"text":"沒有關係 哪一個黨都有疏失但是不可以規則於人民就這麼簡單所以未來要如何執行請回去把確切的準則公告周知 可以嗎"},{"start":520.681,"end":546.315,"text":"這個部分我們會去研究但是我還是在跟委員報告因為陳情的理由有各式各樣有些是真的有些是假的政府存在的價值不就處理各式各樣人的問題嗎本席在這裡已經請陸委會跟移民署把這個事情早日承來落定有沒有任何補救的措施跟辦法"},{"start":547.697,"end":574.069,"text":"要一併公告好不好來 請那個部長鄭部長鄭部長 麻煩部長 三年關兩年罵歷史上主要留下你的痕跡啊您覺得你擔任部長到現在"},{"start":576.051,"end":595.669,"text":"臺灣的言論自由是更加的自由還是更加的緊縮我們臺灣的自由程度是在亞洲是言論自由這個是言論自由是亞洲第二在整個美國自由自家的一個評比所以你從520就職到現在十個月"},{"start":596.909,"end":620.324,"text":"你認為我們的言論自由是增加的充分的被保障 依照法律來保障沒有關係 那本席來慢慢請教為什麼 為什麼台灣現在是應該要不分族群 不分意識形態應該好好團結的時刻結果卻有發生"},{"start":627.008,"end":651.91,"text":"這個各種啊對言論前置的危機已經公開的發生而且這個危機不是一兩個人在講是大家都在講那個部長 本期請教一下齁這個中研院啊陳培哲等75位啊"},{"start":653.012,"end":681.662,"text":"學者聯合聲明 聲明什麼部長 請把聲明告訴我們好嗎這個寫在簡報上對 你可以啊 參考一下 也跟大家分享一下這個是總召提供的 沒有關係你可以照你自己找到的也可以那個市長幫他Google一下嘛 沒有關係嘛75位學者聯合聲明什麼事情"},{"start":689.279,"end":715.244,"text":"這個是整個中央學者的一個聲明我們就尊重聲明的內容是什麼聲明內容這裡面有寫這個不是我講的部長他說什麼你參考一下跟大家分享一下這個裡面有寫的不用我講這個大家都看到了所以部長你有這個勇氣"},{"start":717.108,"end":743.275,"text":"面對啊各界的質疑你要有承擔跟接受挑戰的勇氣嘛已經講了嘛為什麼這麼多偏綠的學者都已經講了嘛這個戒嚴時代啊思想審查機制啊已經到了台灣的上空啊嚴重破壞台灣民主法治的發展"},{"start":746.058,"end":773.332,"text":"部長這是你第一張成績單啊算是偏綠的學者啊發表的聲明啊所以啊 部長鄭楠榮先生是哪一天是我們鄭楠榮先生我們言論自由的紀念日是哪一天4月7日啊 4月7日 好謝謝你啊你還讓全國國人知道"},{"start":774.352,"end":796.543,"text":"我們現在為了紀念鄭若龍先生所以言論自由我們是紀念日而不是追悼日言論自由的紀念日不是追悼日本席在這裡再跟部長言論自由這是民主最可貴的地方"},{"start":798.168,"end":826.11,"text":"不管你主張台獨你主張統一你主張維持現狀這個都是各種言論的自由都可以表達本席請教部長你應該常常要網絡要收集各方的資訊對不對語情觀察對不對是嗎這部分會我們語情會有一些的注意啦應該部長嘛日理萬機要了解語情嘛對不對"},{"start":827.967,"end":845.818,"text":"不管是有線新聞網也好還是網媒也好我想部長應該都常常在涉獵訊息對不對是嗎 這個我們都會注意部長 你有沒有發現本席被青衣社的綠媒 綠網 綠嘴 綠團"},{"start":855.319,"end":879.857,"text":"你看 這麼多人關心言論自由 連那個都飛進來了部長 北西被罵了三四個月北西只有兩個字 各種言論尊重這就是中華民國民主可貴的地方大家可以有不同的政治立場 但是我們要彼此的尊重"},{"start":882.813,"end":903.499,"text":"部長你的成績單除了剛剛中研院的院士以外我不曉得你從哪裡去看到是用多少的業配去找來的這個這個所謂的國外的評比TBS剛做的這個民調你了解嗎TBS剛做的民調你了解嗎"},{"start":905.973,"end":933.751,"text":"TBS剛做的民調我們的言論有沒有自由有沒有更加的開放還是更加的限縮部長您上台以後現在我們言論自由認為限縮的人高達86.7%這不是本席做的民調這TBS公開的民調部長這是你的成績單我們國家的司法"},{"start":934.721,"end":963.499,"text":"已經逾越了自由這個我不同意沒有關係同不同意因為這個是一個很客觀的數字啦因為不是本席做的這是我在網路上看到的你可以去質疑TBS沒有關係啦那個部長不過還是要跟您共勉之啦這個福爾泰啊我們法國的哲學家我想你也都非常了解"},{"start":964.813,"end":988.585,"text":"我可以不同意你的觀點但我誓死捍衛你說話的權利部長認不認同認不認同這個是胡爾泰講的我是認同好 謝謝這就是民主社會那最後呢我想今天啊言論自由既然是今天主要的課題"},{"start":990.017,"end":1013.286,"text":"所以本席一定要在最後最關鍵的拜託一下部長挺直腰桿政治司法不要介入言論的自由政治司法不要介入言論的自由看一下美國開國的國父"},{"start":1018.874,"end":1043.023,"text":"George Washington為什麼一個政權要禁止言論自由只有三個解釋第一個 他過去做了什麼壞事怕人們提起第二個 他現在正在幹什麼壞事怕人們批評第三個 他準備做什麼壞事怕人民揭露所以 拜託一下部長"},{"start":1044.736,"end":1060.431,"text":"言論自由是我們民主國家我們要合乎到憲法言論自由是憲法保障的基準權利但是也要23條憲法23條的一些的法律上的這個也是"},{"start":1061.111,"end":1084.118,"text":"那我想大法官解釋也對這樣就充分的做樣的一個解釋了我想我們都充分的保障這些法律及憲法一旨的言論自由我想這個是可以所以我們台灣才會成為世界被公認的言論自由國家部長又提到世界你又再次拉到世界本席更加的敬佩你啊再拉到世界"},{"start":1085.239,"end":1108.911,"text":"我們再次的強調聯合國的人權宣言兩公約言論自由是必須得到充分的保障不需要太多太多的干涉好不好那今天我想今天召委排這個課程跟部長共享 分享好不好三尼瓜兩尼莫當來的時候意氣風發"},{"start":1115.083,"end":1133.115,"text":"等我工作結束的時候 要讓人家常常的很思念懷念你我想公共生涯就是這樣 好不好 公平之謝謝好 那剛剛那個陸委會還有那個移民署剛剛委員有提到要你們準備的東西再麻煩你們提供給委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":849,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（11時59分）主席，是不是請陸委會、移民署？"],["主席：請陸委會、移民署。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：兩位首長，這幾天有件事引發軒然大波，在我們國家面臨全世界核彈級經貿危機的時候，連賴總統、卓院長都希望朝野一起共赴國難，此時此刻，對於14萬名陸配是否有放棄國籍證明這個事情，現在決定要怎麼做？"],["陳副署長建成：謝謝委員，這件事情不是現在才做，其實去年我們就開始清查還沒有繳交除籍證明的陸配，因為依照兩岸關係條例第九條之一的規範，臺灣地區人民在大陸地區取得戶籍或者使用大陸護照，必須在六個月之內放棄，當時的立法內容就是這樣。"],["傅委員崐萁：去年什麼時候開始清查？"],["陳副署長建成：我們去年下半年就開始根據這個規定清查，因為……"],["傅委員崐萁：現在處置的方式如何？"],["陳副署長建成：還沒有檢具放棄原籍證明的這些陸配，他們必須要來補正相關資料。"],["傅委員崐萁：無法補正會怎麼樣？"],["陳副署長建成：如果無法補正，我們也正在和陸委會進行協調，針對因故無法回到大陸者，可能因為年紀比較大，或者是身體的健康狀況，所以導致他無法回去等等，其實現在移民署已經設立專線和專郵，提供民眾……"],["傅委員崐萁：政府的專線確定可以處理事情嗎？"],["陳副署長建成：我們是針對沒有辦法回去，提示除籍證明的這些人，把他們的困難點回饋給我們，我們會彙整各種態樣，例如他是什麼樣的狀態……"],["傅委員崐萁：處理的標準是什麼？"],["陳副署長建成：因為現在正在做，所以我們希望……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以現在還沒有標準？"],["陳副署長建成：還在討論當中。"],["傅委員崐萁：但是你們處置的方式已經有了嘛！"],["陳副署長建成：還沒有。"],["傅委員崐萁：幾個月內沒有完成會怎麼樣？"],["陳副署長建成：目前是限期三個月之內。看民眾的反映……"],["傅委員崐萁：態樣、規則、標準都還沒有提出，你們就準備要先處置了嗎？"],["陳副署長建成：我們還在研議。"],["傅委員崐萁：那這個時間應該先豁免吧！"],["陳副署長建成：這部分我們會和陸委會討論。"],["傅委員崐萁：各種不同的態樣要如何處置，你們要有一個standard嘛！"],["陳副署長建成：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：你們不能現在、立刻就以三個月為期限執行這件事。梁副主委有什麼話要說？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是這樣的，根據法律，原則上我們會要求，凡是沒有繳交的都要繳交，這是原則。現在我們收到一些民眾陳情，說他有什麼困難沒辦法回去拿，針對這些陳情的個案，我們會個別甄別。但是我也要向委員報告，這件事情並不是現在才開始做，就像副署長說的，去年就開始清查。","在清查過程之中，也不是現在才有人說他沒辦法回去，但是有時候當事人說的不一定是真實的狀況，例如有些當事人只是不願意或懶得回去，或他不願意花機票錢，或者他在大陸有欠債或是刑事責任等等，所以這件事不能一概而論，我們的原則就是大家……"],["傅委員崐萁：副主委，剛剛副署長有說明，可能有很多不同態樣，請你們把它條列化，好不好？讓人民有一個信服的準則，法律必須清楚的條列。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們可以儘量做，但是因為陳情的樣態千變萬化……"],["傅委員崐萁：政府的存在不就是要處理這些問題嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：到目前為止，我們比較有共識的，例如你是因為長期臥病在床的健康因素沒有辦法回去，這個部分我覺得應該會比較有共識，至於其他各式各樣的理由，我們不一定都會採納。"],["傅委員崐萁：梁副主委，不只是今天的詢答而已，這個問題受到大眾矚目，請你們商量以後，條列式、明確的公告周知，讓大家有依循的方向。主席，本席從今天早上聽到現在，這件事情不能這樣含糊過關，要有一個很清楚的方式，而且要讓人民能夠知曉。我們會再召開會議，也請陸委會、移民署提出明確的遊戲規則讓我們了解。","梁副主委，本席要請教一個問題，現在這14萬名陸配，不管年限如何都要繳交，是嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：根據法律，是的。"],["傅委員崐萁：請問這項法律是什麼時候訂定的？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：2004年修改的。"],["傅委員崐萁：3月1日。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["傅委員崐萁：那2004年3月1日以前的呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：法律規定就是2004年修法之前，如果他沒有繳交除籍證明的話，就必須在六個月之內繳交。如果他在六個月之內沒有繳交就會被取消臺灣的身分，法律規定就是這樣。"],["傅委員崐萁：2004年3月1日加6個月，就是9月1日。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["傅委員崐萁：9月1日以後，如果陸委會沒有執行，移民署也沒有執行，是不是就過了追溯年限？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我不能……"],["傅委員崐萁：就算他當時拿了一份假的證明，也已經超過20年的追溯期。2004年9月1日到現在是經過多少年？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：從兩岸關係條例來說，不能有雙重身分這件事情沒有追溯年限的問題，就算過了50年，還是不允許你有雙重身分。"],["傅委員崐萁：這是剛剛秘書告訴你的，是吧？這一點為什麼之前沒有公告周知呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們覺得這是根本原則。"],["傅委員崐萁：這是政府的疏失啊！政府的疏失應該自行承受啊！怎麼是讓老百姓承擔呢？是政府官員廢弛職務。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我必須這樣說，從2004年修法到現在，這中間兩黨輪流執政，所以現在……"],["傅委員崐萁：梁副主委，沒有關係，哪一個黨都有疏失，但是不可以歸責於人民，就這麼簡單。所以未來要如何執行，請你們回去之後把確切的準則公告周知，可以嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個部分我們會去研究。但我還是要再向委員報告，因為陳情的理由各式各樣，有些是真的，有些是假的……"],["傅委員崐萁：政府存在的價值不就是處理各式各樣人的問題嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在這裡請陸委會和移民署早日讓這個事情塵埃落定，有沒有任何補救的措施和辦法也要一併公告。請部長。"],["主席：麻煩鄭部長。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，三年官、兩年滿，歷史會留下你的痕跡啊！您擔任部長到現在，臺灣的言論是更加自由，還是更加緊縮？"],["鄭部長銘謙：臺灣的自由程度在亞洲是……"],["傅委員崐萁：言論自由。"],["鄭部長銘謙：言論自由是亞洲第二，這是美國自由之家的評比。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以你從520就職到現在，這10個月，你認為我們的言論自由程度是增加的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依照法律，充分的被保障。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係，本席慢慢請教。臺灣現在應該是不分族群、不分意識形態好好團結的時刻，結果卻發生各種對言論箝制的危機，這些已經公開發生，而且這個危機不是一、兩個人在議論而已，是大家都在說。部長，本席請教一下，中研院陳培哲等75位學者發表聯合聲明，他們聲明什麼？部長，請把聲明的內容告訴我們，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有寫在簡報上。"],["傅委員崐萁：你可以參考一下，也和大家分享一下嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是總召提供的，所以這個部分……"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係，你也可以依照你自己找到的說明。司長，幫他google一下，好嗎？75位學者聯合聲明什麼事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是中研院學者的聲明，這部分我們尊重。"],["傅委員崐萁：聲明的內容是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這裡面有寫到聲明的內容。這個不是我說的嘛！"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，他們說了什麼？你參考一下嘛！和大家分享一下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我看了，也知道了。這裡面有寫，不用我說嘛！大家都看到了。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，你要有這個勇氣嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是尊重……"],["傅委員崐萁：面對各界的質疑，你要有承擔和接受挑戰的勇氣嘛！這麼多偏綠的學者都說了，戒嚴時代的思想審查機制已經到了臺灣的上空，嚴重破壞臺灣民主法治的發展。部長，這是你第一張成績單，而且這是偏綠學者發表的聲明。我們言論自由的紀念日是哪一天？"],["鄭部長銘謙：4月7日。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝你啊！你讓全國國人知道，我們為了紀念鄭南榕先生，所以將言論自由訂為紀念日，而不是追悼日。本席要再向部長強調，言論自由是民主最可貴的地方，不管你主張臺獨、主張統一或主張維持現狀，這都是言論自由，都可以表達。請教部長，你應該經常需要蒐集各方資訊，輿情觀察，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會注意輿情啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：部長日理萬機，也要了解輿情嘛！對不對？不管是有線新聞網也好，還是網媒也好，部長應該常常涉獵其中的訊息，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們都會注意。"],["傅委員崐萁：好。部長，你有沒有發現，本席被清一色的綠媒、綠網、綠嘴、綠團謾罵，你看，這麼多人關心言論自由，連蜜蜂都飛進來。雖然本席被罵了三、四個月，但本席只有兩個字，對於各種言論就是尊重，這就是中華民國民族可貴的地方，大家可以有不同的政治立場，但是我們要彼此尊重。","部長，你的成績單除了剛剛中研院院士發表的聯合聲明以外，本席不曉得你是花了多少業配費才找來所謂的國外評比。TVBS剛做的這個民調，您了解嗎？我們的言論有沒有自由？是更加開放還是更加限縮？部長，您上台以後，現在我們的言論自由，認為限縮的人高達86.7%，這不是本席做的民調，是TVBS公開的民調，這是您的成績單，我們國家的司法已經逾越了自由。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不同意。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係，不管你同不同意都一樣，因為這是一個很客觀的數字，而且這也不是本席做的，是本席在網路上看到的，你可以去質疑TVBS。部長，不過本席還是要和您共勉之啦！這是法國哲學家伏爾泰的名言，你應該也非常了解，「我可以不同意你的觀點，但我誓死捍衛你說話的權利。」部長認不認同？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是伏爾泰說的，我是認同的。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝，這就是民主社會。最後，言論自由既然是今天主要的課題，所以本席一定要在最後、最關鍵的時候拜託一下部長，你要挺直腰桿，政治、司法不要介入言論自由。美國開國國父George 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