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討論首先到底課徵法是用專法的方式還是放在刑事訴訟法以專章的方式來表達其實不管是在課徵法、另立專法還是在刑事訴訟法當中而陳儒之前的討論有委員表示意見是認為說透過專章"},{"start":2298.854,"end":2315.181,"text":"而透過專章我們能夠完備整個刑事偵查包括一個訴訟上對於人權保障的相關程序那如果以專法的方式那當然在發現事實上能夠因應著日新月異的科技犯罪我們能夠提供檢警掉必要的工具"},{"start":2315.961,"end":2335.254,"text":"來進行犯罪的偵訪以及事後的刑事追溯。」但是在這兩軌之間或許有不同的側重但是重要的我們今天希望能夠呈現的就是時效上的需求因為社會因應期盼趕快能夠透過立法或修法的方式來完備我們檢警掉對於詐騙、詐欺犯罪的打擊"},{"start":2339.136,"end":2353.41,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":2364.58,"end":2380.643,"text":"包括從外部的方式不管是透過影像的方式來追蹤可能的犯嫌這都是我們在科技偵查犯罪的時候所必要的手段那這當中我們已經對了很多侵犯隱身的部分做了相當程度的一個節制也要求主張有所保留"},{"start":2381.184,"end":2405.368,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":2417.196,"end":2422.261,"text":"台灣現在最大的一個司法笑話就是叫做偵查不公開"},{"start":2423.53,"end":2439.143,"text":"真查不公開已經變成是華天下之大雞的司法笑話。所有人都知道只要重大案件發生我跟你保證偵查一定公開一定會有某週刊鉅細靡遺的把所有的案件詳情詳實全部的把它介入報導"},{"start":2443.427,"end":2455.012,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之"},{"start":2462.791,"end":2474.86,"text":"現在偵查不公開變成是法務部的一個內控的一個權宜性的做法如果你過去偵查不公開你的做法基本上讓大家滿意的話我也贊成內控但是有讓大家滿意嗎"},{"start":2478.403,"end":2497.965,"text":"我們過來看哈從一百零八年開始統計到一一二年抵止沒有任何檢察官因為偵查不公開遭起訴然後經過機關收集資料小組列入檢討的高達七千兩百五十五件檢察官很神啦都是神啦"},{"start":2499.156,"end":2503.664,"text":"偵查不公開滿天不公開7255件最後檢察官違反偵查不公開遭起訴的零件"},{"start":2510.984,"end":2535.454,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":2538.695,"end":2567.364,"text":"你沒有拿出績效給我們看現在來做什麼?科證法結果科證法、GPS包括通保法、網路流量紀錄這種已經直接侵犯人民核心隱私權的事情法務部也跟我講還沒控放心我們法務部的標準很好我們法務部的公信力很強我們法務部絕對不會把偵訪偵查人民的GPS的流量跟網路流量紀錄拿給八卦週刊"},{"start":2569.225,"end":2577.496,"text":"賣給渣期集團交給王逸川成立天眼局我們檢察機關法務部的內控好棒我們絕對不會做這些事情"},{"start":2578.783,"end":2603.073,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":2607.535,"end":2611.229,"text":"如果你今天沒有賦予相應的法律責任跟相應的法律規範"},{"start":2612.944,"end":2615.006,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":2642.108,"end":2663.335,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":2664.994,"end":2693.421,"text":"謝謝主席我們今天我自己提出來的草案主要是因為我思考到不管是搜索扣押或者是羈押這些東西其實都是侵害人權但是在公共利益保障的前提之下本來我們就必須賦予偵查機關一定能量的偵查作為雖然這些對人權是一定有所侵害但是它都是在法律允許的範圍內這樣才能夠保障社會的安全"},{"start":2694.341,"end":2721.088,"text":"所以這一次我自己提出來的草案我主要是重視在人權跟發現真實兩個一定要並重上面也就是說就算是偵查犯罪的偵查發現犯罪事實真相非常重要但是還是要建立在人權保障的基礎上所以在《實質訴訟法》第一條第一項他就說得很清楚犯罪非依本法或其他法律所定之訴訟程序不得追溯處罰"},{"start":2722.328,"end":2737.142,"text":"因為這個精神在所以我認為所有的相關的這些對人權的侵害一定要有法律的授權為依據那我也要求說有關科技偵查的方面一定要定在刑事訴訟法裡面而不應該另立專法"},{"start":2738.39,"end":2761.608,"text":"而且是只有一個十幾條的專法其實這沒有任何意義應該還是回歸到刑事訴訟法裡面做一個一體性的規範再來我所提到的偵查的工具主要是GPS、M化車跟熱血象儀這些東西那這個都是現在辦案非常重要的一個工具但是因為目前我個人是認為說司法院是怠惰"},{"start":2762.529,"end":2780.621,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":2782.018,"end":2801.15,"text":"他們都沒有辦法去使用科技偵查的工具來對於這些犯罪分子進行打擊所以我們希望能夠盡快透過修法讓我國的偵查機關能夠跟上這個時代用最基本的科技偵查的工具來進行犯罪偵查另外"},{"start":2802.85,"end":2812.113,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一"},{"start":2819.156,"end":2838.723,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五"},{"start":2844.105,"end":2860.501,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五"},{"start":2866.607,"end":2887.345,"text":"委員包括我們國民黨的委員都認為說事先的法官保留雖然是一個重點但是事後的通知當事人也是一個非常重要的點我們要通知當事人讓當事人才知道有救濟的管道否則他根本不知道自己在被監控的情況下根本不用去談後面救濟的管道那相關的資料的銷毀"},{"start":2888.726,"end":2911.151,"text":"也要法務部把他當做一件事情把他做好最後那個內控不受信任這件事情我覺得可能要法務部自己要檢討因為偵查不公開這件事情講了那麼久也都沒有處罰那個任何一位檢察官但是呢這段時間偵查大公開所有的案子搜索完隔天就上特定媒體而且是特定媒體"},{"start":2912.051,"end":2931.419,"text":"不要講說這東西對人民不公平對媒體也不公平啊憑什麼獨厚某一家媒體要就大公開大加油否則你就應該依法就全部都不應該洩漏出去以保障當事人的權益啊不然這對當事人的傷害太大尤其是訴訟案件很多訴訟案件到最後成罪的比例只有六成多"},{"start":2932.239,"end":2957.943,"text":"我想法務部應該很清楚這個點訴貪案件最後陳罪的比例常常都只有六成多而已那也就是說有百分之三十幾的當事人到最後其實是不起訴處分判無罪那這樣子的話我們對得起這些當事人嗎所以千萬不要配合政治人物用偵查大公開的模式去對特定的政治人物非執政黨的政治人物來用這種方式去羞辱他好謝謝各位"},{"start":2970.407,"end":2975.402,"text":"我們先請那個機關代表報告時間三分鐘請司法院吳秘書長報告"},{"start":2985.38,"end":3008.79,"text":"主席、各位先進、各位委員、各位先進、各位先生、各位女士本人僅代表司法院就本次並案審查修法的法案提出報告事先有提出書面的報告因為時間有限所以我則要說明"},{"start":3010.343,"end":3017.282,"text":"第一項是關於那個有關偵查中辯護人在場前等部分"},{"start":3018.899,"end":3045.296,"text":"那麼這個是最主要是應應憲法法庭一百十一年度憲判之第七號判決主文所明示的意旨那麼認為說檢察官在詢問被告或犯罪嫌疑人的時候有在場筆記之前那麼並且應該有向這個法院聲明不符請求救濟的機會所以司法院"},{"start":3048.038,"end":3070.772,"text":"應應憲法法庭的判決之後就召行多次的執行會議提出今天司法院及行政院所提出來的假案後來因為在會嫌行政院過程當中司法院又在執行會議當中又"},{"start":3074.008,"end":3087.927,"text":"在綜合行政院方面所提出來的各種意見所以後來就彙整為行政院版的草案也就是兩院版所提出來的議案"},{"start":3090.035,"end":3104.189,"text":"所以這個議案是經過兩院的共識那就用這個基礎來作為報告那修法的重點是增訂第七十條之一關於儲物期間的回物原狀"},{"start":3105.31,"end":3124.726,"text":"那麼本條新增對於檢察事務官等那麼所謂的處分不符的話那麼倘因為過失而處分申請期間的話那麼給予申請回復原狀的權利啊那第二點就是說修正第245條關於偵查中辯護人的筆記錢啊那第三點是增訂第245條之一關於禁足或限制處分的這個救濟啊"},{"start":3135.882,"end":3158.002,"text":"另外關於相關黨團還有委員所提出來的各種版本我們在書面也都有做一些說明。第二項是關於科技偵查的部分政府關於這些修法有一定分工在整個科偵法提出專法的過程當中"},{"start":3161.394,"end":3167.783,"text":"二）司法院及行政院密切配合協力提出有關專法。因為科技偵查有別於傳統的強制處分,"},{"start":3176.476,"end":3196.557,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":3197.998,"end":3219.979,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":3228.172,"end":3252.524,"text":"主席各位委員各位先生你是今天封邀本就這一個科技偵查以及偵查中筆記權的部分報告那其中科技偵查的部分請參閱本部在今日以及六月五日的報告在此不再贅述另外有關於偵查中的筆記權的部分這個修正罪主要是要回應先判自七號的要求來完善被告以及犯罪嫌疑人的訴訟權"},{"start":3253.704,"end":3271.661,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":3272.722,"end":3295.83,"text":"那有關於各委員的版本的部分其中有關於這個台灣民眾黨黨團的部分那本部是認為扣押的部分刑訴法已經有相關規定不用重複規定而且416的部分那黨團版本只規定到檢察官的救濟的部分關於相關司法警察的部分的救濟並未漏裂所以這部分是否在酌"},{"start":3296.63,"end":3322.28,"text":"另外有關羅委員智強版本的部分本部是認為這一個按照4至443號有關於這一個成績化法律保留的理論那這部分並非絕對法官保留的事項目前現行法已經是相對法官保留的相對法律保留的事項已經符合4至443號的要求另外有關於這一個省委員伯陽版本的部分本部是認為版本裡面所稱的隨時溝通"},{"start":3323.921,"end":3338.858,"text":"這個隨之溝通的文藝有欠缺明確性的可能。另外有關於這一個電子設備具錄音錄影上網功能的科技設備能否在偵查中使用的部分本部署認為他可能會流於這一個預流通"},{"start":3339.558,"end":3364.996,"text":"或者複製會導致整個偵查中的保全證人及證據上的困難所以本部這部分是否爭裂仁請在座另外有關於全面性法官保留的部分我們認為目前的這個如果全面性採取法官保留會影響整個偵查程序的過程而且證據的保全另外有關證據能力的部分本部是認為現行法按照刑訴一五八之四做個案的全方保障"},{"start":3365.376,"end":3378.769,"text":"已經足以確保這個整個證據的證據能力,所以無庸規定成這個絕對保留。」以上報告,謝謝。好,其餘機關報告請參閱書面。那麼,機關代表報告完畢,相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄。"},{"start":3389.046,"end":3407.642,"text":"三條提案說明及機關報告已經進行完畢,現在開始詢答。本會委員詢答時間為八分鐘,非本會委員詢答時間為四分鐘,均不再延長。上午十點三十分截止發言登記,請登記第一位中嘉賓委員發言。"},{"start":3428.112,"end":3441.991,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關司法官員、會長、工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生、有請法務部黃市長、NCC的蔡處長以及警政署的林副局長。"},{"start":3446.828,"end":3462.547,"text":"次長好還有處長及副局長好那麼今天呢我們是要談科技偵查在刑訴的專章當中但是呢我要再次的來就教於我們三位跟次長在之前我們包括科偵法包括通保法"},{"start":3463.047,"end":3491.726,"text":"以及今天的刑訴法在於打擊詐欺的部分我們談到了很多科技辦案的手段那我今天在我們之前的委員會審查當中有幾個爭點我要進一步的來確定我們法務部可能還有未來我們司法院的態度首先關於使用者資料來我們看一下假設這是一個電信詐騙被二人報案之後警察介入調查首先他會跟電信業者去取得犯嫌的使用者資料是不是這樣子開始偵辦是不是從這開始啟動"},{"start":3493.768,"end":3516.907,"text":"所以我們需要知道使用者的資料是這樣嗎?對好那往下看所以呢我們這裡提到說在院版的通報法的審查當中他有提到有六項包括這個通訊設備的識別資料網際網路位置及位置資料還有通信時間連線用量與封包數量還有網域名稱以及最後應用服務類型及協定對不對"},{"start":3517.768,"end":3545.536,"text":"那我們那時候有問過為什麼需要這麼多首先為什麼需要設備識別資料呢是要確認使用者嗎請問次長還是副局長對這上次的建制機關的報告有說明這個這個通訊設備使用識別資料包括英名跟英系所以這個是AA就委員9T的A是要確認使用者是誰犯嫌嗎鎖定犯嫌之後那請要接下來請教一下往下看那我們的網際網路的位置跟位置資料目的又是什麼"},{"start":3546.926,"end":3574.204,"text":"問何你們需要這個IP?這個當然就是如同委員在PPT上所講他確認這個IP是來自於哪個國家跟城市跟基地台。要瞭解這個犯嫌的所在位置是不是在國內是這樣的意思嗎?對。那這跟你們的犯罪偵查有什麼關聯?這當然這個被告他所在地時在哪一個城市或在國內外會涉及到我們偵查。發動偵辦很有關係。好謝謝那我們就認為他有必要再來那你們為什麼要調取網域名稱的原因是什麼?網域名稱他能顯現什麼?"},{"start":3575.685,"end":3592.578,"text":"各位報告網域的名稱部分不會顯示網址他就網域名稱所以委員在PPT上所寫斜線以下的部分當然就不會顯現所以說以我現在說的法務部調查局的網頁來看我們前面的網域只能看到facebook對不對.com就知道這一個"},{"start":3593.325,"end":3607.938,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":3612.722,"end":3641.787,"text":"那接下來再請教一下往下看那我們的應用類型服務及協定他的流量連線的流用量及風暴數量目的又是什麼為什麼你們需要他可能的犯嫌他使用哪些應用服務類型對他他看他是使用哪一種軟體在對在進行相互通那目的是什麼對你們的犯罪偵訪有什麼目的他使用來他是上網或者是用語音或哪一種犯罪手法而已那至於他詳細的內容要進一步的偵查"},{"start":3642.447,"end":3667.472,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":3671.853,"end":3687.566,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之"},{"start":3698.345,"end":3708.227,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":3709.568,"end":3727.378,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":3728.499,"end":3744.649,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":3752.694,"end":3756.455,"text":"所以你們要調取流量紀錄的時候其實你們就是要去去從外部去構築一個可能的犯罪的一個過程"},{"start":3766.049,"end":3767.23,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3786.218,"end":3803.632,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九"},{"start":3806.884,"end":3832.657,"text":"根本報告原則上我們草案跟原來的這個條文他本來就採法官保留啦是那事後的監督機制我們在我們的這個草案的十四條之一的第六項其實有定一個授權的規定所以你們有在準備了對未來我們在進行協商的時候你們可以告知以確除我們委員會審查的疑慮是嗎大概的方向是可以的好那最後我們還談一個就是那一天的爭議點就是事後的監督機制"},{"start":3833.498,"end":3836.584,"text":"根據院版的通保法第四條之一的第二項及第五項,你們這裡﹖其實呢﹖這裡要重複了"},{"start":3842.608,"end":3865.78,"text":"其實在這裡我們看到了我更正第十一條之一的調取資料的發動主體你們本來的設定是檢察官跟司法檢察官對不對當時在討論要不要一下子從法官保留跳到完全沒有任何的保留甚至有人主張折衷用檢察官保留但是到底這會影響到你們辦案的速度還是影響到我們檢察官或法官的負荷那你們的回答是什麼"},{"start":3867.132,"end":3885.44,"text":"公安委員報告因為第一個他當然是他的侵害人民的權益相對的較小第二個基於辦案實際上的需要第三個他其實沒有內容的一個記錄所以這部分我們認為為了平衡人權保障跟事實的發現我們認為司法檢察官賦予他直接調取的權限"},{"start":3886.48,"end":3907.496,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,但我們還是認為,鑒於過去仍然有在偵查機關當中有不肖份子他們利用假借犯罪偵查之名去調取使用者資料的時候,產生了用他用。這種情況之下我們認為,不管有沒有檢察官保留法官保留,縱使沒有,未來的這個調取的紀錄必須能夠留存"},{"start":3907.976,"end":3927.538,"text":"以便從外部來問責﹖對不起這個問責打錯了﹖問責的機會或來釣﹖以免濫權。你們同不同意縱使沒有任何的檢察官保留或法官保留,這樣的調取個資應該留下足跡?這個當然。當然你們有沒有寫出來?事實上警政署在通信記錄的部分他就有一個非常嚴格的內控的規定。"},{"start":3928.686,"end":3951.107,"text":"那能不能供外部來稽查可以可以啊可以你承諾齁好那這就是我的結論了結論就是說我們認為呢調取網路流量記錄不得涉入瀏覽內容可以嗎確定這絕對好那你們要設置外部的監督機制以完善隱身的保護你剛剛也承諾了未來包括縱使沒有檢察官保留或法官保留在個人資料的調取部分要留下足跡"},{"start":3951.823,"end":3975.739,"text":"公外部監督機制。」你會建立這個機制,是嗎?不是,本來按照我們這個授權,這個某法授權的規定本來就要建立這樣的機制。那能夠公外部來稽查?外部的稽查要看它稽查到什麼樣的程度。是,所以我說你要提出具體的主張。未來我們在相關的三法的審理當中,包括今天的刑事訴訟法的當中,我們要能落實這些機制要求。必要的時候你要提出來具體的說明,可以嗎?OK,沒問題。好,謝謝。好,謝謝中召委。"},{"start":3982.214,"end":4010.837,"text":"下一位我們請羅智強委員發言有請次長好羅委員好次長你知道我們現在的司法的有一個最新的一個進步的時代叫做偵查大公開時代吧你知道吧你知道吧"},{"start":4011.673,"end":4038.166,"text":"而偵查不公開是偵查大公開你搞錯你現在我們偵查大公開時代你都搞不清楚我跟你講偵查大公開時代不是我個人的說法也不是你個人的認知請問一下一百零八年到一百一十二年底然後經過機關收集資料小組列入檢討的偵查不公開之餘有違反偵查不公開之餘的案件有多少件你告訴我"},{"start":4041.307,"end":4066.115,"text":"七千兩百五十五件偵查大公開啊當然我知道列進去啦除非你今天不看報紙你幾乎每重大案件,我想要請問次長不管是楊文科案、高雄案、林志妙案只要檢方發動任何的偵查手段第二天、第三天、第四天"},{"start":4067.745,"end":4091.219,"text":"週刊就報導了。沒錯吧?我有誣賴你們嗎?沒錯吧?還是要我調新聞資料出來給你?還是說你完全沒掌握?你這7255件有沒有包含這些事情有沒有?有沒有包含嘛?有沒有包含嘛?沒關係你回去列個報告給我。7255件我想要知道是哪7255件。資料準備一下。"},{"start":4097.612,"end":4116.979,"text":"第二路檢討嘛。非常好!檢討結果是什麼?檢討結果當然如同委員講他現在認為就是說沒有違反偵查不公開。謝謝啊!沒有違反偵查不公開。眼睛瞎了才會說沒有違反偵查不公開啦!所以案前鉅細靡遺除了跟偵查有關的人之外"},{"start":4118.059,"end":4143.654,"text":"誰拿到這些資料你不要講今天連監察院都看你們看不下去啦監察院一百零八年十二月公布的調查報告明確指出檢調偵辦社會矚目案件違反偵查不公開等刑嚴重侵犯人權聯邦法本會委員會的黃國昌委員向北檢告發的司法案件也被外洩媒體為公眾所知"},{"start":4144.727,"end":4172.341,"text":"我自己都被檢察官約談過我還跟上次說過檢察官跟我講說偵查不公開羅先生請你出去不要講我出去不講結果週刊寫出一大堆扭曲我在偵查這個所謂的作證的時候講的話奇怪是我洩漏的嗎我當然知道啦我前面問法務部長就堅決否認是檢察官洩漏為什麼因為我也抓不到啊因為我又不是司法警察我又沒警察權"},{"start":4173.638,"end":4201.144,"text":"所以我要回頭講齁你今天跟我講內部內控機制到現在為止我剛剛前面講7255件喔多不多啊多不多啊市長你的數字觀數字直觀也許答不出來我跟你講一般民眾看到這個數字很可怕可是檢察官很棒啊因為違反偵查不公開遭起訴的幾個你告訴我當然是沒有零吶"},{"start":4203.179,"end":4221.605,"text":"檢察官每個都是聖人還是神人啊那麼多的案件你一個都沒有辦法今天告訴我說今天規則然後通通跟我講檢察官沒事我還相信你的內控嗎我就講一個最簡單的事情為什麼球員不能兼裁判為什麼為什麼永遠不能只依賴內控為什麼為什麼因為人就有人性"},{"start":4226.52,"end":4251.497,"text":"檢察官現在有多少檢察官?全國大概一千四百個檢察官一千四百個我相信一千三百九十九個都是很棒的檢察官但你保證那一個檢察官有一個檢察官他今天把偵查資訊洩漏媒體他今天甚至也有不肖的司法警察人員把偵查的把所有收集的資料賣給詐欺集團有沒有這個案例有沒有"},{"start":4252.615,"end":4279.076,"text":"司法警察部門有起訴有嘛對不對所以換言之人性死的內控機制基本先天就有缺陷啊更何況我今天講的招招攬今天你們法務部跟我講我剛所有偵察部公開事件主管機關不就是法務部不是吧是吧不然你們幹嘛組小組去檢討啊那個是偵察部該作為辦法裡面所規定對嘛但是你的績效拿出來你覺得能服眾嗎"},{"start":4281.598,"end":4309.437,"text":"我現在看到就偵查大公開時代啦所以第一個為什麼今天要講偵查不公開要法治化也是為檢察官好今天為什麼要偵查不公開不就是落實無罪推定嘛免得偵查公開你去帶風向嘛對不對現在抱歉每次發生任何案件這些所有的案件當事人照這個偵查大公開的內容不用等審判全世界都認為他已經貪污定驗了結果貪污定罪率六成"},{"start":4310.404,"end":4332.07,"text":"被大公開那三成最後被判無罪可是抱歉中間被霸凌被所謂的扒皮已經是精靈的所有有罪貼定的過程了啦那今天從偵查部公開今天司法法務部這邊吼內控大敗壞這件事我要講下一個嚴重的問題了這也是我質詢部長"},{"start":4334.742,"end":4359.568,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":4364.727,"end":4386.867,"text":"我只看到一面倒要求檢察官給你武器可是呢GPS24小時內要不要通知當事人照你們的白門要不要通知當事人法條上沒有規定要通知當事人要透過內控來處理沒有通知當事人你不要給我轉彎你只是內控而已我剛剛前面講你今天內控績效好我站這邊我沒有資格講你什麼"},{"start":4388.305,"end":4408.424,"text":"我相信你的內控嗎?我說那一千四百個檢察官有一個檢察官今天他就把這GPS資料他拿出去交給又是八卦週刊同一個再不然就是交給詐欺集團再不然就是交給所謂的天眼局王一川我知道嗎?"},{"start":4410.117,"end":4428.414,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":4432.398,"end":4433.599,"text":"二）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百"},{"start":4459.659,"end":4474.294,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十"},{"start":4477.406,"end":4495.425,"text":"所以今天為什麼在這邊一直呼籲事前的階段我到現在還沒有時間討論事前該裁檢察官保安法官保安是完全就是今天相信檢察官我這個都已經沒時間討論了但是這些你都可以為了打仗的效率你還講得出一點理由啦"},{"start":4496.446,"end":4515.999,"text":"事後通知也不做事後的所謂的救濟沒有通知哪來的救濟啊事後的損害賠償的監管事後資料的銷毀的外控機制你都跟我講內控可以做啊所以到這邊你叫我怎麼相信今天你不是假借科證法假借所謂通保法"},{"start":4517.06,"end":4535.866,"text":"打詐目的也許有但是你附帶去政治偵訪人民甚至出賣人民的個人隱私資料給八卦週刊甚至給詐欺集團我沒有辦法管制啊我沒辦法了解啊事後跟事前最大的差別事後跟打詐一點關係都沒有沒錯吧事後通知會妨礙你打詐嗎會不會我先問你嘛事後通知會妨礙你打詐嗎"},{"start":4548.192,"end":4561.359,"text":"對嘛!那不要再拿打詐做藉口你都認證了事後通知只是讓你多一道手續你連偵查作為都做的時候你不要跟我講事後通知你做不到事後通知只是增加一道手續跟打詐是沒有關係的沒錯吧"},{"start":4562.78,"end":4568.484,"text":"包括所謂的救濟管道的基因石包括所謂的損害賠償責任的建制有沒有"},{"start":4579.951,"end":4583.453,"text":"對啦我知道你們內控很嚴格絕對會追究責任到底啦謝謝好謝謝那接下來下一位我們請傅坤祺委員"},{"start":4615.554,"end":4635.411,"text":"請次長麻煩次長委員好謝謝黃次長今天部長為什麼沒有來他今天另外掉下去有一個儀式他典禮因為院長要去他就要陪同"},{"start":4637.008,"end":4649.384,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":4650.842,"end":4672.742,"text":"是不是上個禮拜這個通報法已經送出委員會了所以這禮拜就不用來了是嗎沒有他本來是要來的因為臨時有這個行程他在跟召委請假這個請問一下次長因為本席覺得您在法務部是比較沒有那麼政治性而且很專業而過去本席也對您非常敬重"},{"start":4673.903,"end":4697.601,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":4701.22,"end":4723.134,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":4726.683,"end":4750.641,"text":"這個剛剛羅委員提到卸密七千多件這個本席有問過蔡新祥部長七千多件其實其有七千多件而已是被人家檢舉被人家查到的就七千多件如果沒有檢舉沒有查到的可能是一萬四千件還是兩萬一千件還是三萬件五萬件"},{"start":4752.27,"end":4780.745,"text":"所以啊次長我們必須很務實來看待這個事情在上一屆立法院針對科證法是軒然大波這個社會大家老老不安所以在上一屆這個蔡英強部長撤回沒有再送還有包括木馬城市植入手機啊等等啊五花八門所以"},{"start":4782.652,"end":4806.273,"text":"上一屆沒有繼續審查。」那這個會期又提進來提進來固然沒有提木馬城市但是你們所需要的辦案武器立法院是可以支持但是我們現在最重要的對於你們如何防止洩密以及事後通知被偵查的人這都是必要的程序"},{"start":4807.577,"end":4831.301,"text":"次長再說明一下讓我們了解一下你們積極的作為是什麼?各位委員所言報告就是我們現在的科證法草案裡面除了剛剛羅委員所提到的這個GPS24小時內我們這個由這個檢察官或司法警察來直接處理之外其他的所有的包括超過20小時的GPSM化車也好熱血箱也好都要經過嚴格的法官保留"},{"start":4831.681,"end":4839.232,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":4839.738,"end":4856.21,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第七百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五"},{"start":4867.518,"end":4891.217,"text":"本席沒有在懷疑啊你們用如何偵查方式然後能夠因應現在新的科技犯罪你要有一個急迫的時效性本席到現在都沒有反對本席是請教你們對於防弊的積極的作為對於整個偵查大公開全面洩密的積極的作為是什麼"},{"start":4891.937,"end":4920.16,"text":"有關偵查不公開部分事實上我們刑訴法245條第五項他已經授權我們訂了一個偵查不公開作業辦法啦他是一個授權成效如何當然一定不如外界所這個期待的但事實上幹委員提到說件數很多那是假機關他主動認為有違反這條不公開之一他就主動的列入檢討的但是後追究結果也許不管是各界的檢舉還是這些司法機關主動"},{"start":4921.843,"end":4946.388,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四"},{"start":4950.96,"end":4980.062,"text":"這個政治犯案眾人皆知剛剛各委員也提到包括高鴻安包括楊文科包括林志廟現在包括柯文哲主席這幾幾乎啊這個報章雜誌寫的啊可能比地檢署檢察官手上的資料還要清楚所以啊本期在這裡請教次長我們今天不是演講大賽我只有一個目的要請教你"},{"start":4982.513,"end":5010.691,"text":"這麼高的民調人民認為檢察官會受到政治力的介入百分之八十五的人認為政治力介入這個檢察官的辦案會受到影響這表示全民對於整個偵查的過程有沒有揣摩上意以及有沒有聽從指揮去做刻意的方向的辦案這已經是幾乎是全民共識了而且你事後有沒有再確實做到"},{"start":5011.857,"end":5034.425,"text":"對於被偵查人他的權益的保障他的被告知的義務還有損害的賠償你們必須要很完整的很完整的這個配套的做法這是第一第二對於再三再三類似攻擊性的"},{"start":5035.712,"end":5064.59,"text":"這樣的泄密讓整個案情完全在偵查過程跟媒體同步報導完全把偵查不公開視若無物這個部分一定要很清楚你們要拿出一個辦法這屬於加重泄密還是怎麼樣你必須提出一個辦法來本席在這裡跟你確認在你們這個辦法沒有收到立法院以來近來我們對科證法還是有高度的質疑"},{"start":5066.28,"end":5094.174,"text":"所以請你們把本席今天要求的事情也是委員會一再討論Focus重心都在這裡我們希望法務部能夠提出自我的要求我們配合來修法沒有問題要把這個完備人權的保障這樣子的話再來提要提高這個檢察官的武器我們當然會支持但是如果"},{"start":5095.262,"end":5120.198,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":5121.564,"end":5137.03,"text":"而且你們是正式的違反聯合國的兩公約而且是無罪推定所以必須要請法務部把確實的防範的方式以及該加重的刑責必須提出一個具體的辦法"},{"start":5138.939,"end":5157.781,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一"},{"start":5158.601,"end":5187.515,"text":"可以盡快提出來嗎?各位報告就網路流量的部分上次委員會已經決意要求本部未來在訂執法的時候要把相關委員所提的相關的階段機制列入通盤考量這第一點第二點有關偵查不公開的部分我們現在事實上已經因為法律授權訂了一個偵查不公開作為辦法我們可以來檢討這偵查不公開作為辦法有沒有要再行修正或檢討的地方這邊可以答應委員市長當然要檢討但是本期請法務部"},{"start":5188.945,"end":5215.25,"text":"未來只要有在偵查中的案件媒體揭露的話法務部的機制就是立刻立案調查從哪裡泄密的?公文報告,剛才我講的偵查資訊部關於監督辦法事實上所屬的檢察機關或是司法機關他本來叫主動的檢討法務部反而不能夠查出來沒有?但查得出來查不出來他涉及到一個案的事實"},{"start":5217.728,"end":5243.863,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":5258.107,"end":5283.385,"text":"主席,我們有請司法院秘書長跟法務部市長。秘書長早。市長早。我想我們今天這個委員會排審就是將目前有的這個刑事訴訟法的一些相關的一些修正草案還有我們這個司法院跟法務部所"},{"start":5284.335,"end":5300.387,"text":"所送進來的這個刑事訴訟法修正案一併審查了那就是條文所以這個就變成今天的會議的有好幾個不同的主題就針對因為他把所有刑事訴訟法的全部都納進來大概就是"},{"start":5302.714,"end":5326.649,"text":"幾個問題第一個就是有關科技偵查法的部分納入刑事訴訟法這是一個主題另外就是有關這個大法官這個憲法法庭所判決之後我們專門筆記權的入法另外也有委員提這個針對偵查不公開的這個相關處罰入法大概就這些焦點"},{"start":5327.677,"end":5356.657,"text":"我想首先因為這個科技偵查法的部分我們在上個禮拜就已經大家大概有做一些討論了所以今天大概就是就我們這個律師的筆記權辯護人的筆記權的問題來跟這個這個我們司法院還有我們法務部來做一些探討因為我們這次今天我們提出來我看你們是兩個不同的案子司法院有一個案子法務部有一個案子兩個案子的內容也不一樣所以這部分可能要跟你們討論一下"},{"start":5358.82,"end":5380.419,"text":"當然這個我們台灣的刑事訴訟制度他也是一個漸進的一個進步的過程他在從這個以我所知好像是這個律師的編護人的在場權要到民國七十一年修法之後這個才在偵查過程中這個律師才可以在場"},{"start":5385.305,"end":5388.169,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5403.027,"end":5416.635,"text":"一直到民國九十二年才從職權主義改成這個當事人進行主義了大概是這樣子的一個進步過程那我們今天今天這個我們在在這個一百一十一年這個憲法第七號判決"},{"start":5418.876,"end":5439.518,"text":"這個有關刑事訴訟法修正的部分提出就是有關這個辯護人在場的筆記權、陳書意見權他都應該是偵查中的這個辯護權應該能夠受到充分的防禦權的保障因此我們才有今天的修法但是這個修法的部分我看這個我們因為司法院跟法務部各有不一樣的版本"},{"start":5440.492,"end":5468.716,"text":"我看這個我們法務部的這個版本齁你的修正重點除了這個筆記權以外齁那對於這個這個在單書中所做的限制齁必須要要載明於筆錄啦齁那這個如果這個這個其他有這個犯罪犯罪嫌疑人或其他變容人在場陪同齁應該要再行告知齁這個都都是我們法務部版本裡面有的另外"},{"start":5469.622,"end":5494.011,"text":"也在七十條之一明定了相關的救濟程序了那這個部分我有一個在這個學界以及這個實務界大家爭執已久這次我本來想說這個我們筆記權入法是不是能夠一併解決但是我看到我們的兩個法案都沒有在處理這個問題就是有關於使用電子輔助設備"},{"start":5495.492,"end":5500.614,"text":"條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條"},{"start":5526.428,"end":5535.336,"text":"這一次的版本裡面委員沈伯陽18人提出來的245條第二項修正草案規定辯護人得以被告或犯罪嫌疑溝通"},{"start":5550.512,"end":5575.059,"text":"以及用這個電子設備（對這個是沈博洋委員的版本我是說我們司法院我們尊重尊重尊重就是說也就是說司法司法院認為這個使用在在這個這個筆記權裡面包含這個電子設備的輔助你們是尊重尊重的意思說包含也可以是不是這個意思尊重這個法務部來請市長"},{"start":5577.009,"end":5599.016,"text":"公務員報告我們的立場是這樣先判制他是確立了辯護人的在場前筆記權跟陳述意見權所以他重點是筆記權我們容許他筆記但是我們主張的是如果那個電子設備他有錄音錄影或傳送功能的話在偵查庭中我們是不贊成的所以電子輔助設備裡面還有兩個問題一個是說我用電子輔助設備來進行筆記純粹進行筆記這是一種方式"},{"start":5606.218,"end":5631.085,"text":"另外就是說這個電子服務設備裡面有錄音錄影到底可不可以這是變成兩個問題啦這個對這次市長講的我本來接下來就是要問這個啦那對這兩件事情法務部的態度呢我剛已經提了如果說他的電子設備是只有單純的筆記功能沒有錄音錄影傳送功能的話個案上檢察官他去判斷這有沒有影響他他的偵查二十五條第一項單數他自己去判斷所以你"},{"start":5632.745,"end":5656.42,"text":"所以使用電子輔助設備這件事情﹖法務部的立場是交由檢察官自行判斷嗎?如果他錄音錄影傳送個人的話...現在不講錄音錄影錄影錄影你們的態度很清楚這不可以其實也沒有法律依據啦你們現在目前依據的是偵查庭管理要點高等檢察署這個跟所屬的這些偵查庭你們是用這個偵查庭管理要點"},{"start":5657.24,"end":5669.452,"text":"五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案的第四條之一、第六條之一、第六條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、"},{"start":5679.762,"end":5701.3,"text":"幾乎很少人用手寫的啦對各位報告他如果電子輔助設備他已經有錄音錄影傳送功能他已經異國錄影錄影錄影是一個對至於技術上面你怎麼確認他的對他的這個這個電子輔助設備裡面除了筆記功能以外他有沒有其他的錄音錄影功能這個是技術上面你們的問題技術上他就個案上懲判檢案他就要去判斷了所以"},{"start":5703.894,"end":5731.211,"text":"簡單講這是法務部的立場因為我這裡有這個111年度我們的這個律檢會議的會議紀錄111年11月30號正好法務部出席的正好就是次長那時候是檢察司司長所以你那時候你所表示的意見說可否使用電腦作為這個雜技的工具授權檢察官事個案決定沒錯所以你們到現在法務部的立場還是"},{"start":5732.452,"end":5759.783,"text":"受選檢察官嗎?對,沒有錯。但是受選檢察官的結果他就會造成一些爭議啊。各位報告他那個但書檢察官可以限制禁止的時候他本來就是考量很多的抽象的一個室友嘛。所以那就是一個個案判斷的問題。好,那但是但是就是因為你們受選檢察官所以這個在這個你們檢察官評鑑評鑑委員會的一百一十一年度檢評制第九十三號就有這個爭議啦檢查你進來辯護人進來之後檢察官要求要求檢查他的電腦"},{"start":5760.963,"end":5784.002,"text":"檢查他檢視他的桌面資料那也要求重新開機這樣子的要求就是因為你們授權給檢察官來決定我能不能那個辯護人能不能使用電子設備所以檢察官他就說他認為說我用這樣的方式來確保你沒有進行錄音錄影但是這個辯護人認為說你檢察官無權檢查我的檔案"},{"start":5786.178,"end":5815.096,"text":"所以才有這個評鑑的結果嗎?那這個東西究竟我們現在說授權給檢察官你們不認為說在這次的修法裡面既然我們開放了筆記權那有關於這個電子輔助設備的使用你們是不是應該也要在這個立法過程中把它說明清楚你們究竟這個到現在你們還是認為說授權給檢察官因此就授權給檢察官的結果就是造成相關的這些爭議了"},{"start":5817.897,"end":5836.527,"text":"這個解評委的決議事實上是因為他不負評鑑他實際上是肯認檢察官在個案上的一個裁量性的判斷當然委員擔心的個案上我們是不是要在我們的注意事項定一些比較明確的判斷基準我們事後再來考慮看看在什麼狀況之下要禁止什麼時候要不禁止"},{"start":5838.288,"end":5860.083,"text":"時間到了,我跟你講其實司法院我們司法院的在這個你們在這個今天的修法的立法說明裡面你們有說你們認為錄音錄影並非筆記權你們直接就在那個這個今天的立法說明裡面你們就認為說因為他容易從事散佈所以你認為他不屬於筆記權明定在這個立法說明裡面"},{"start":5862.892,"end":5875.422,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":5876.345,"end":5893.729,"text":"我個人是比較希望說在這個立法過程中我們就針對這個辯護人使用電子輔助設備這事情我們要在立法過程裡面把它明定清楚以避免未來還要再繼續還要再重新再修法或者再重新做解釋的一個必要以上好下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":5913.51,"end":5927.27,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":5928.629,"end":5929.109,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具"},{"start":5950.772,"end":5971.249,"text":"審查不公開之都沒有去看到第三項。」第三項你們其實講得非常清楚啊除於依據法令或維護公共利益或是保護合法權益有必要者外當然你這不得公開這三項是不得公開然後你才在第五項的時候就叫你們去用會同那個司法院的你們還有行政院共同去制定"},{"start":5972.61,"end":5988.257,"text":"這個你就顛倒過來講啦 這個我特別提醒一下但是我還是要來就教一下啦 延續我們上個禮拜大家在提到的就是說 這個我們今天這個整個科證法的部分我相信第一個你們會碰到外界在講的 為什麼不放在刑事訴訟法裡面"},{"start":5989.639,"end":5995.722,"text":"第一個會碰到這個問題嘛,這個就比較怪啦當然你們要講特別條例也可以啦,那你像比如說DNA採樣條例、刑事這個妥數審判法還有通保法跟國民法官法這些都刑事訴訟法的一個特別的一個規定當然都可以,但是我簡單的講啦實際上在刑事訴訟法裡面對現在真正有治癒學法律的人比較方便"},{"start":6013.112,"end":6030.937,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":6031.477,"end":6055.135,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6056.856,"end":6074.59,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6075.891,"end":6088.696,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6106.601,"end":6124.668,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、"},{"start":6136.021,"end":6150.727,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":6157.711,"end":6165.973,"text":"二十三小時半建行這個通知的程序真的會有那麼困難嗎?這涉及到什麼?你很清楚啦我們現在來講的話你說我去我今天你發動一個強制處分我去哪一些人家去做搜索欸搜索人還可以在場欸對不對我還可以表達我的看法欸"},{"start":6187.608,"end":6200.794,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五"},{"start":6216.4,"end":6228.439,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":6231.957,"end":6252.335,"text":"他們又認為他們也認為我不要說秘書長我就試一下我問他們認為人權的考量這也確實你去看看我們刑事訴訟法那個拒絕證人權那個部分我們的觀念已經跟德國已經完全相反了德國是認為說這一些人你連去監拍"},{"start":6253.752,"end":6266.004,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五"},{"start":6277.835,"end":6289.121,"text":"會涉及到後面你被傳訊當證人的時候我如果是辯護律師的話馬上我本來如果我們採抄德國法的話我馬上會跟你講你那個是根本就不能列為證據啊會不會有這樣的問題那個秘書長修法啦我們這個是在立法應該是把那個根本的把它拿出來討論"},{"start":6301.263,"end":6308.999,"text":"在司法院立場是保障人權這個方向我們認為這個要一直努力下去要保障人權"},{"start":6310.106,"end":6332.504,"text":"但是你都沒說我所謂保障人權大家也知道保障人權所以該通知的司法院立場應該還是盡量還是要通知啦我再提出來我真的會因為那天黃國昌委員去提到我講的那個100H的部分他剛好說沒有規定我回去再讀你知道嗎我回去再把它讀德國刑律訴訟法"},{"start":6333.945,"end":6353.4,"text":"二）刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案的第一百條是針對監看的那個要件一百零條是針對告知告知義務包含受重大干預的一個通知的一個義務他們監看的部分我上次就提出了他還有兩個前提就看要要有其他手段沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實這個我們已經沒有了"},{"start":6354.221,"end":6362.152,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":6369.793,"end":6389.085,"text":"你的看法,次長?各位報告,這如果說是這個監看的部分的話我們事實上這部分我們也是規定當然沒有區分第三人或者被告我們事實上有法官保留還有事後的通知跟監督機制都有啊我們現在唯一沒有的是GPS24小時內的而已其他的都是有相關的通知機制跟相關的監督機制啊"},{"start":6390.185,"end":6413.671,"text":"刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6415.74,"end":6416.3,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6429.73,"end":6441.277,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6455.725,"end":6464.873,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6465.953,"end":6490.71,"text":"我講了第三次了啦這一些我講的都不是杯葛裡面就想說這涉及到基本人權的我們真的要好好討論你不可能做一四人嘛 對吧讓你做到補定 讓你做到十萬年議定哪一天你們下來的時候你會發現說哎喲 在我任內我怎麼給人家通過這個這個你這個法律人基本的一個堅持總是要有啊我總是要去提 跟你們提醒一下那這一些涉及到基本的你們要看過那個哈利波特嗎"},{"start":6494.679,"end":6505.853,"text":"三位有沒有看過哈利波特?次長你有沒有看過哈利波特?你沒有看過我就告訴你,死神的聖物有三樣其中最可怕的是那個古墓的那個魔杖威力很強大"},{"start":6506.701,"end":6519.052,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6532.335,"end":6557.749,"text":"如果我卸任以後我再去當律師的話我真的馬上會主張這個我甚至會覺得說你們這個偵查的程序裡面到底會不會涉及到違憲我們何必修法完以後讓後面的有人有機會這樣去主張為什麼有機會這樣去主張因為司法院還有法務部你們很清楚啊德國的法令有一部分我們就真的給人家抄一半而已啊大法官真的有可能因為這樣子把你宣告給違憲還在你們的任內這樣通過"},{"start":6560.759,"end":6582.835,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":6588.16,"end":6592.791,"text":"我覺得很合理,我看司法院這邊沒有意見了。次長你是不是要再講,再想一下。"},{"start":6596.617,"end":6617.968,"text":"各位報告我們的立場已經說了非常多次了那這部分並不是因為說整個刑訴他其實做一個全實在權衡的過程被告的人權保障和事實的發現是做一個權衡的過程那這部分其實他24小時內的這一個GPS他只是一個像我們現在如果沒有GPS20小時規定我們現在司法警察他事實上在路上也在跟監啊"},{"start":6619.008,"end":6642.078,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6644.994,"end":6659.805,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6660.663,"end":6679.917,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6689.304,"end":6708.53,"text":"現在上來以後都可以那要等當事人來主張說我有這樣的一個身份那NO我拒絕證言你會碰到這個部分啊你像比如說是醫生心理醫師我哪天派到的是醫師或者派到他的心理醫師或者是他的律師他這些到庭上來他就說我主張拒絕證言權那可以了"},{"start":6712.554,"end":6729.277,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、"},{"start":6730.751,"end":6747.84,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6748.407,"end":6775.957,"text":"提出很卑微的一個提醒打擊犯罪發現真實大家都願意但是這些基本的一個人權的侵害的部分是不是考慮一下怎麼設計司法院也認為沒有問題的啦那警察的部分我不曉得你們跟誰討論啊但是問一問看起來他們覺得啊事後給人家捅低一下也合理的啊你們撐在那個地方再考慮一下好不好再考慮一下"},{"start":6780.894,"end":6803.73,"text":"謝謝下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席我們請吳秘書長麻煩秘書長秘書長早"},{"start":6809.728,"end":6832.384,"text":"委員好今天我們要併案審查有關這個刑事訴訟法的部分修正條文那其中三黨的黨團或委員各別有提出對於科技偵查訂定的專章的這個草案那也誠如我們在上週審查科技偵查與保障法時所討論到究竟是要訂定一個專法"},{"start":6833.505,"end":6848.119,"text":"還是要修訂專章來規範科技偵查的內容。這也是接下來草野協商對於所要採取的這個法律去進行抉擇。那也有看到其他委員提出質疑認為我們司法院應該要拿出更積極的這個作為。"},{"start":6849.56,"end":6872.792,"text":"如果相同內容能夠定在刑事訴訟法當中則應該不須再另訂專法。那也因為司法院這邊是代表法院和法官的意見攸關未來實務上的運作。那在此我想請教秘書長司法院目前的立場是偏向另訂專法還是相關的考量的理由是不是可以請秘書長來做簡單的說明一下。"},{"start":6875.698,"end":6898.323,"text":"像委員說明那麼司法院是認為以專法來規定比較適合因為行政院版的這個草案已經經過多方的討論有排除部分比較爭議性的偵查手段所以是建議用專法來討論作為基礎"},{"start":6901.69,"end":6927.386,"text":"因為這個科技偵查手段可能持續在增加所以放在專法就類似通保法一樣那麼便宜來統一規範能夠來迅速回應偵查機關偵查犯罪還有收集證據的需要那假如說要放在那個刑事訴訟法那可能還要再"},{"start":6930.228,"end":6955.039,"text":"在整體盤點那個刑事訴訟法本身好沒關係民眾黨你們就是傾向就是制定專法那這我們也尊重那我想我們司法院跟這個法務部在修法的過程裡面應該也經過充分的這個溝通跟討論那但是在這個科技偵查的實務上還是要有檢調在調查案件的這個時候來發動"},{"start":6958.541,"end":6976.768,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6977.528,"end":6989.657,"text":"檢察官認為有必要時就能夠發動偵查。」那我想請問秘書長,草案對於法官保留和審查的這個機制是否都已經非常的周全了?"},{"start":6990.803,"end":7016.968,"text":"因為現在在這個科證法草案所規定的三種類型那不管在這個人的定位追蹤還有M化車的這個行動通信的設備的這個追蹤定位以及藉由這個隱私空間內的人物的監錄那這些都有採取法官保留事件來審查"},{"start":7017.788,"end":7042.398,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條"},{"start":7042.978,"end":7067.942,"text":"那這些包括所使用的科技方法還有使用該科技方法調查得取的這些標的那這些在申請書裡面都要詳細記載所以就整體來講這個專法的草案所採的法官保留的範圍還有這個審查機制就人民的飲食錢已經非常周全了嗎?"},{"start":7068.502,"end":7076.313,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案 案件,刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":7084.764,"end":7109.453,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":7111.374,"end":7119.587,"text":"要求或是規範來降低科技偵查對於人權侵犯或是不當濫用的可能。」"},{"start":7120.439,"end":7144.574,"text":"因為在這個草案這個專法草案就各類型已經有採取法官保留那麼並且在這個核發許可書的時候對主刑人員方面也為必要的指示除外這個在草案中也規範有事後通知的這樣的一種程序事後救濟制度這些也都有規範還有這個"},{"start":7147.015,"end":7152.925,"text":"資料保管消費機制可以說是可以來降低會不會被濫用?那個秘書長會不會被濫用?"},{"start":7156.34,"end":7178.892,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":7179.993,"end":7201.83,"text":"懲罰犯罪最重要的角色不論是最後協商的結果是要訂定這個專法還是修訂專章那我想當務之急還是要盡快在各版本的這個條文內容上去取得一個共識那並且讓修法競速來完成給予偵查單位有效打擊犯罪的一個武器才是一個重點"},{"start":7202.591,"end":7217.076,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":7217.366,"end":7232.636,"text":"五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":7233.436,"end":7257.416,"text":"那我們也看到司法院還有行政院還有委員們對此都有提出修正的版本那我想就一個可能發生的這個狀況來請教秘書長那今天假設律師在徵訊做筆記但檢察官還是不允許也就是說他當下沒有得到這個筆記的權利那在救濟之後應該要如何來處理"},{"start":7260.811,"end":7285.05,"text":"這一次在司法院、行政院後來有共識提出來的議案裡面就這些有增訂241條之一關於假如說禁止或限制處分的一個救濟這些有增訂在第245條之一有做一個如何救濟的方式"},{"start":7287.045,"end":7302.55,"text":"有這個在上面有記載嗎?有有有有如何來來救濟這一次有這個部分是不是會後再請我們同仁再給我一份資料是是好那另外我想就叫秘書長就是我有看到這個沈伯陽委員他有提案"},{"start":7303.03,"end":7322.917,"text":"希望能夠保障辯護人筆記權的同時也能夠考慮到因為科技日新月異得以用其他電子設備來輔助記錄我想這應該也是符合現代的這個工作習慣所提出的這個修正方案因為現在的這個工作實務上做筆記也應該不僅限制於紙筆"},{"start":7324.037,"end":7349.674,"text":"在電子設備上若有妥善的規範是否也可以歸納為我們未來筆記輔助筆記的一個工作的一個工具。這一部分我們在書面說明也有提到我們市法院是尊重的。尊重這樣提出來這樣一種這個方向。那我可不可以請我們黃次長那針對這個部分我們法務部的這個看法勒?"},{"start":7350.514,"end":7373.679,"text":"國務委員報告我們這宪判是他確立的是這個辯護人的筆記權所以我們要確保的辯護人在偵查中可以筆記他用科技設備去筆記個案上有假官去判斷他是符合筆記的概念我們要強調的是如果這科技設備本身有錄音錄影傳送功能的話這部分我不是禁止的他會影響整個偵查的不公開的原則的處理"},{"start":7374.239,"end":7387.645,"text":"所以個案上他符不符合筆記的要件個案來檢察官他自己去做判斷好那如果在我們規範清楚的狀況之下我們法務部跟司法院應該都同意用這個電子筆記來做這個備載的方式應該這個工具可以認同嗎?"},{"start":7391.167,"end":7392.168,"text":"二）刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":7414.22,"end":7430.685,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":7449.543,"end":7454.091,"text":"謝謝主席。麻煩有請司法院的秘書長跟法務部的次長。委員好。"},{"start":7462.16,"end":7482.81,"text":"秘書長好、次長好目前我國非常多的人民受詐騙所害家破人亡整個社會對於詐騙是深惡痛絕也正是因為這個樣子我們不斷地催促、不斷地要求我們相關的主管機關必須要就打詐"},{"start":7484.232,"end":7512.125,"text":"必須要就洗錢能夠更強力的去執行而且有效的採取各式各樣追訴的手段在這個同時當我們看到有一些不肖的律師拉幫結派幫這一些詐騙集團行使刑事訴訟法上面合法的辯護權沒有人反對但是"},{"start":7513.191,"end":7538.391,"text":"如果是幫詐騙集團進一步參與犯罪監控車手甚至幫忙洗錢啊生物痛絕啊生物痛絕沒想到介入的還不僅僅只有律師啊連我們的法官連我們的檢察官通通都淪陷了"},{"start":7539.332,"end":7556.932,"text":"有法官幫詐騙集團律師的首腦藏匿現金還幫他運送現金啊這種藏匿犯罪所得的行為啊來請教一下次長有沒有違反洗錢防治法"},{"start":7559.233,"end":7560.894,"text":"法官幫這些詐騙集團律師的首腦長逆運送現金有沒有違反洗錢防治法請教次長"},{"start":7585.487,"end":7610.861,"text":"公文報告如果符合剛剛我跟委員報告的是以前的三個太陽的其中一個太陽隔絕型的太陽的話當然會構成這個案子有沒有開始在偵辦這個部分台北地檢署已經在偵辦了司法院是不是給他停職了司法院已經停職了好接下來另外一個同樣誇張的竟然有我們地檢署的檢察官去鼓勵他的男友"},{"start":7612.15,"end":7640.401,"text":"加入詐騙集團的律師團還提供檢方內部的書類檢索系統來幫他查詢提供他的資料桃園地檢署發了一個聲明說他利用檢方內部的系統查詢資料已經偵截了沒有影響到偵查也沒有影響到防害秘密是真的嗎來請教一下次長"},{"start":7642.02,"end":7661.579,"text":"各位報告,那個台灣第1屆新聞稿是這樣子說明的啦,個案上他刑案的部分他認為沒有構成,但個案憑藉...好啦,我們來問一下齁,他幫他的律師男友幫詐騙集團在監控車手的律師男友來去查詢檢方內部的系統,我先問一個"},{"start":7662.802,"end":7686.329,"text":"如果查詢檢方內部的資料系統這是依法律應該可以公開的事情還是依法律應該秘密的事項各位報告我們相關的查詢的這個規定有相關的規定它不符合我們個案上查詢要件所以幫詐騙集團的男友查詢資料符不符合你們的規定這個個案當然他去認定純粹從法律來講抽象來講是不應該的因為嘛"},{"start":7690.066,"end":7719.255,"text":"你也說不應該嘛但我看桃園地檢署的新聞稿我就看不懂啦幫他詐騙集團的男友去查他幫詐騙集團偵辦的案件處理的狀況這不是檢查系統隱秘密的事項嗎那怎麼會只移送檢察官、評鑑委員會沒有要進一步偵辦這樣對嗎請教市長這個已經涉及到他這個桃園地檢署個案的決定了"},{"start":7720.602,"end":7746.502,"text":"這個個案的決定我們接下來進一步往下看看我說的是不是真的他的律師男友跟其他的律師已經依照組織犯罪防治條例起訴了嘛 對不對對吧這個是你們公開的資訊嘛依照組織犯罪防治條例起訴代表了這一團律師啊在我們檢方的眼中他已經構成了犯罪組織了嘛"},{"start":7748.339,"end":7775.427,"text":"你不會覺得很誇張嗎我們的檢察官竟然鼓勵他的律師男友去參與犯罪組織欸來你看一下你們在起訴書裡面證據清單裡面所講的他說被告朱一平要跟鄭宏威合作吳女就是我們的檢察官為其表示可惜好吧我只是覺得這是打進去那個詐騙圈子的好機會"},{"start":7777.14,"end":7801.608,"text":"檢察官去鼓勵他的男友加入犯罪組織這麼駭人聽聞的事情啊目前法務部的態度是什麼?顧問報告那個案的偵辦上我們還一致的立場還是尊重地檢所決定嘛那行政懲處的部分我們繼續行政監督各案的偵辦我一定尊重地檢署啊但問題是你要可以經得起社會檢驗嘛"},{"start":7804.316,"end":7829.05,"text":"這個犯罪事實這麼明確的行為這麼離譜的你們去對照一下桃園地檢署發的新聞稿讓人看不下去啊草率的就說什麼沒有影響到偵查或涉及妨礙秘密來我問一下你們後來發生了這麼離譜的事情有沒有去清查這個檢察官有沒有介入過"},{"start":7830.527,"end":7856.13,"text":"這一個詐團的男友他所承辦的案件有沒有去清查過?各位報告那個桃園地檢署因為他承辦的地檢署嘛我相信地檢署檢察官他就所有的狀況他都應該要一律的清查啦好清查完的結果是什麼法務部有沒有掌握因為他的個案剛甄解我們部分這部分我們不可能去掌握那我先問你法律抽象的問題就好了啦"},{"start":7857.315,"end":7877.777,"text":"他的男友所幫忙辯護的案子他的女友鼓勵他參加犯罪集團的這個檢察官適不適當處理他男友辯護的案子所以這個部分台灣地檢已經把他送個案評鑑了沒有,適不適當處理他男友幫忙辯護的案子"},{"start":7878.926,"end":7895.979,"text":"可以這樣做嗎?當然不適當。當然不適當?對。是不適當還是不法?有沒有跨越法律的紅線?啊,各位網友,有沒有不法那就涉及到剛剛提的...剛剛我說的很清楚了嘛。對,它是一個刑案的問題。他的男友幫忙辯護的被告"},{"start":7897.031,"end":7923.051,"text":"鼓勵他的男友去幫詐騙集團加入那個犯罪組織,一起來監控車手,一起來幫這個詐騙集團辦事情的檢察官,可以再審審他男朋友幫忙辯護被告的案件嗎?可以嗎?各位報告,因為您提的是喜難的部分,那叫個案即是事實去認定啦。他到底有沒有反映什麼。你們怎麼連這麼簡單的事情,連一個基本的態度,"},{"start":7923.942,"end":7946.647,"text":"都閃躲成這個樣子。我給你看個案事實桃園地方檢察署檢察官起訴書一位許信的被告他的辯護人是誰朱一平朱一平是誰就是剛剛那個檢察官的男友提起公訴了以後同樣一個被告"},{"start":7948.205,"end":7968.352,"text":"這個檢察官就是這一個詐團律師男友的女朋友的這位檢察官他可以當公訴檢察官嗎?你有沒有看到右手邊下面誰倒庭執行職務吳雅芝?吳雅芝是誰?是不是就是那位檢察官?"},{"start":7969.745,"end":7991.636,"text":"這個被告的辯護人是誰朱一平朱一平是不是他男朋友就是他鼓勵他男朋友去參與詐欺集團加入那個犯罪組織的擔任律師的男友可以做這種事嗎法務部要有態度啦各樣我當然尊重檢察官的偵辦嘛各樣要有態度啊"},{"start":7993.065,"end":8011.578,"text":"各位報告,如果這個檢察官執行職務跟辯護人有一定特定的關係的話檢察官是符合訴訟法上的自行迴避,他應該要簽情問題是他沒迴避啊他還知道,他不僅知道他男朋友是在幫詐團他還鼓勵他男朋友去參加那個詐騙集團組成的律師團幫他們監控車手這還不夠駭人聽聞喔"},{"start":8018.068,"end":8029.375,"text":"結果他男朋友幫忙在辯護的詐騙集團的車手由他的女朋友立庭當公訴檢察官這種基本的查詢啊桃園地檢署沒有查出來法務部沒有查出來我老實講啊我不相信啊害人聽聞啊可以幹這種事喔"},{"start":8046.926,"end":8072.529,"text":"可以幹這種事喔!更離譜的是什麼來次長我再帶你往下看起訴的時候檢察官在起訴書說什麼這一個被告也就是他的男朋友擔任辯護人的被告他已經是累犯了要求依照累犯加重起刑這個是起訴檢察官做的事喔來我們來看判決"},{"start":8073.857,"end":8103.173,"text":"判決最後有沒有論累犯沒有論累犯為什麼沒有論累犯因為那位力挺的檢察官就是那個詐團律師的女朋友當力挺檢察官的法官說什麼本件檢察官於本院審理時沒有就被告有無構成累犯的事實及加重情形的事項具體指出證明方法所以就沒有論累犯"},{"start":8105.256,"end":8132.564,"text":"市長你看了不會覺得很誇張嗎?檢察官起訴的時候要求論累犯結果到審判的時候立庭的檢察官是那個被告辯護人的女朋友還是鼓勵他去參加這個犯罪組織的然後他在審判程序當中沒有針對他是累犯的事實提出任何證據方法導致法院最後沒有論累犯"},{"start":8135.096,"end":8158.163,"text":"請問這不是包屁什麼是包屁這不是放水什麼是放水我們桃園地檢署移給檢審會的憑鑒事實有包括這個部分嗎沒有為什麼沒有應不應該構成要憑鑒的事實這部分的話當然如果說有沒有不當我們桃園地檢署他今天委員在這邊質詢他理論上他會要職權來處理這樣子你認為有沒有不當"},{"start":8162.731,"end":8187.797,"text":"法務部的立場認為這樣有沒有不當按照4至7、7、5號的規定雷範檢察官是要指出證明的方法對啊沒有指出證明的方法結果沒有指出證明的方法的檢察官是誰就是那個詐團律師的女朋友啊站在法務部的立場這樣的態度這樣的作為是要強力打擊詐欺犯罪強力打擊洗錢集團是這樣嗎"},{"start":8191.227,"end":8215.178,"text":"這樣的事實桃園地檢署是在呵護自家人喔我簡單搜尋一下就查出來啦桃園地檢署查不出來喔這件事要不要徹查市長委員報告今天委員在這邊質詢的話我們會把這個意見轉交給桃園地檢署來處理我希望桃園地檢署公開回應啊我就查出來的事情可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":8216.86,"end":8244.52,"text":"自己的男朋友在幫忙辯護的詐騙集團結果他自己當立庭檢察官當了立庭檢察官還沒有論壘犯的事實讓法院最後沒有依照壘犯加重刑刑這個是我們在對抗詐騙集團應該有的態度跟作為嗎這是我的問題市長要不要徹查我剛剛已經回答委員了好來最後"},{"start":8246.584,"end":8275.22,"text":"不好意思耽誤了一點時間我最後請教秘書長當詐團藏匿現金的司法官經手的案件我的問題一模一樣司法院徹查了沒有他曾審過多少詐騙集團的案件在那一些案件當中有沒有跟當他藏匿現金的詐騙集團的成員有任何的交集這件事情司法院徹查了沒有"},{"start":8277.396,"end":8302.228,"text":"這個我們跟桃園跟橋頭地院啊就這個司法官的這個事情啊都都盡可能的來來加以這個釐清對所以呢他其他陳審的案件有沒有涉及到詐騙集團他有陳審詐欺案件啊有沒有陳審到詐欺集團的案子徹查了沒有那我們會盡量釐清的所以已經將他停所以什麼時候釐清"},{"start":8304.119,"end":8331.444,"text":"是已經釐清完了還是還沒有釐清完在橋頭地院那邊他們應該就初步然後也跟政風單位也都密切甚至像所以釐清完了沒有就就因為這一種就是說一定是盡量去釐清嘛對啊所以釐清完沒有那這個沒有關係啦我看你吼現在的回答是搞不清楚狀況我也不要逼你會吼"},{"start":8332.765,"end":8350.32,"text":"去問橋頭定院,釐清完了沒有?因為你們已經停止了嘛。停止了。接下來除了刑事處分以外,我想法官評鑑應該跑不掉嘛。對對。是不是要移送法官評鑑?已經送了。那你送法官評鑑最後釐清的犯罪事實有沒有涉入其他詐團的案件,這件事情徹查沒有?"},{"start":8351.101,"end":8370.193,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":8371.94,"end":8393.04,"text":"有沒有涉及其他詐團的案件請司法院跟橋頭地院回去徹查這已經沒有涉及到審判核心事項了我們是針對已經終結的案件來review他有沒有成審有沒有涉及到其他案件一定要徹查啦好請司法院回去徹查謝謝謝謝黃委員接下來我們請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":8408.517,"end":8412.24,"text":"謝謝主席有請秘書長跟次長麻煩秘書長、次長委員好兩位辛苦了今天兩個主題就交於兩位第一個當然今天的主題就是科證法的立法到底立法體力我們要做出什麼樣的抉擇第二個議題我繼續會針對我們的國會調查權的行使的事項再一次就交於兩位下演"},{"start":8438.183,"end":8450.032,"text":"三）刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之"},{"start":8460.6,"end":8487.493,"text":"在委員會主條審查當中都確認是可以使用的新型武器所以主體上是大家朝野是一致有共識的那對於發動的程序上如何能夠更強化對於人權的保障對於通知當事人的作為那確實有一些小小還在釐清當中的程序性的問題但是大方向上在上週的主條審查"},{"start":8488.593,"end":8510.388,"text":"大概都已經完備了。」所以說已經排除了原本也有在野黨委員所認為爭議的偵查手段都排除了那現在三大打架利器入法所以呢我個人認為我剛剛也聽了秘書長說的你們認為司法院認為立專法是一個好的方向下一頁"},{"start":8511.468,"end":8539.273,"text":"我今天要特別在這裡再釐清一下再說明一下本席個人的立場我認為讓科技偵查執法有據是我們討論最主要的目的他要執法有據讓他所有偵測的證據都具有證據的效力來提升整個偵辦能夠定罰判罰的基準所以呢到底是要放在刑事"},{"start":8540.633,"end":8561.081,"text":"訴訟法或是專法為之我認為這個事情是沒有是非對錯就是一個政策面的抉擇就是一個政策面的抉擇在立法的體力上其實過去以刑事程序特別法來作為這樣子的立法也有相關的體力比如說國民法官法"},{"start":8561.781,"end":8575.477,"text":"例如說也在這一次打詐司法當中的通訊保障及監察法好不好我看你們的報告裡頭還有把這個羈押法也放進去所以體力上是有的他不是一個唯一不是一個新創事項"},{"start":8577.319,"end":8602.339,"text":"二）在時程上我認為這是關鍵我個人認為時程上如果要透過刑事訴訟法它畢竟是跨院計的嘛對不對你司法院主管你必須要會嫌司法院所以在過去司法法制委員會也好在立法院立法修法的經驗裡頭只要是跨院計我們也常常 argue啊司法院跟法務部的立場又不一樣"},{"start":8603.32,"end":8625.946,"text":"所以跨院級的修法、立法本身它的修法期程就更為緩慢。現在沒戶期啦。我們要快速的去打詐。要讓科技偵查的新方法可以趕快來上路。讓道高一尺可以破除魔高一丈。所以我也務實的認為特別法在時程上是快速可以到位的。"},{"start":8627.14,"end":8646.046,"text":"當然還有一個科技偵查他本身具備的特殊性如果從偵查機關的需求面的角度來講那用一個專法是有助於建立一個專屬的法律的體系架構我個人認為這是一個政策的抉擇沒有好壞沒有是非對錯"},{"start":8647.486,"end":8662.193,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一"},{"start":8674.146,"end":8694.362,"text":"所以我個人是認為快很準是我們現在要面對打架最重要的事項所以我希望趕快在朝野協商當中各黨團來協議出一個方向我個人傾向認為立專法是需要的在體力上在時程上在食物的需求上它是更好的好下一頁"},{"start":8695.359,"end":8724.079,"text":"那釐清了今天的主題我還是要回到這個擴選法案行政院已經提出復議然後總統何可樂已經從昨天送到立法院我覺得網路上的公民朋友非常的關切我個人會認為在未來的復議案的行使甚或是未來的釋憲過程這都是台灣公民社會最好的一個民主教材這都是讓全民一起來上一堂公民課"},{"start":8725.24,"end":8751.83,"text":"很多的年輕世代他們在網路上不斷的在討論說如果立法院不能好好討論就讓社會來討論我認為這是這一次擴權法案的延長賽在復議或者是未來釋憲的過程當中就讓公民來對話公民來好好針對這樣一個珍貴的民主教材好好來進一步的來思辨來論證"},{"start":8754.215,"end":8766.291,"text":"但我也看到針對通過了擴權法案之後立法院到底如何來行使調查權呢?其實連國民黨內部的意見也不一致喔。下一頁。"},{"start":8768.052,"end":8795.947,"text":"回到憲法的相關規定憲法六十三條規範立法院的幾大權力以及釋字五八五號跟七二九號都再再告訴了我們立法院行使的調查權是憲法所賦予的所必要之輔助性權力他必須跟著憲法第六十七、六十三條立法院本身的議案相關"},{"start":8797.268,"end":8810.442,"text":"所以說他所與職務職權有重大關聯者並非包山包海並非什麼都可以以查閉之名無限上綱的來啟動調查。釋字729號更清楚的告訴我們"},{"start":8814.346,"end":8842.248,"text":"立法院行使調查相關的職權對於偵查中的案件自不得向其調閱相關卷證也就是對於偵辦中的案件立法院的那一條線要畫得很清楚我必須再一次的把憲法的精神再一次說明跟論證下一頁所以說呢因為現在這個黨有委員說是不是要在立法院設調查官兩位的看法如何"},{"start":8847.373,"end":8862.975,"text":"為什麼立委說立法院要不要在立法之後、修法之後才說要不要來設調查官?在司法院、我們司法、行政的立場是和這個共同的法律大家共同遵守"},{"start":8863.916,"end":8880.887,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":8880.947,"end":8902.868,"text":"二）司法院的立場就尊重憲法的賦權嘛對不對?調查權該屬於監察院的就監察院那檢調擁有的權利就是司法的權限嘛來那次長既然有立委在討論說立法院要不要成立調查官是不是就事足以來證明立法院是沒有調查的專業立委本身在法律上各方面"},{"start":8903.809,"end":8922.456,"text":"才要有涉一個調查官之必要。」你的看法呢?立法院有沒有比較檢察官的訓練專業調查的這種能耐?各位報告因為這涉及到是大院的職權刑事法也非本部的執掌那本部的立場跟司法院一樣我們就尊重大院的決定"},{"start":8923.7,"end":8946.501,"text":"你們都講的實在是很委婉因為現在有藐視國會罪都很委婉我完全理解站在憲法的角度就是我們共同的立場但是釋字585號也很清楚的說特殊例外的情形就特定事項之調查由委任非立法委員之人士來協助調查之必要時就必須來訂定特別法"},{"start":8948.323,"end":8976.983,"text":"就委任之目的、委任調查之範圍、受委任人之資格、選任任期等人事組織的事項、調查的權限都必須有特別法的詳細的規範並藉以作為監督之基礎。換言之如果立法院因應了國會擴權法案的修法之後那如果要增設調查官本身的這件事情他必須要嘛二次修法要嘛要有特別的立法規定"},{"start":8977.383,"end":8993.57,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二"},{"start":8999.025,"end":9000.307,"text":"二）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百"},{"start":9016.388,"end":9028.464,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":9032.99,"end":9036.772,"text":"或是我們吳宗憲、趙偉說的他過去檢察官辦案的經驗他認為要有一個檢察官辦案的模式還是要有偵查不公開的狀況然後不對媒體公開就有兩種不同的主張所以說這樣一個政治需求大於實質功能的國會調查權其實他不折不扣的政治目的是大於實質的所謂調查"},{"start":9058.032,"end":9077.479,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第六百四十五條之"},{"start":9086.722,"end":9102.049,"text":"當然還有包括如果立法院同時啟動了調查權的議案必案本身涉及必案本身就是你們檢調偵查中的案件或者是立法院的調查結束之後有人去向檢方告發"},{"start":9103.169,"end":9131.06,"text":"其實這都某種程度就會變相成為政治施壓司法的一種可能而且是一種無限的復循環我今天在這裡我想這個議題我希望社會持續的討論在復議案的行使的過程以及大法官釋憲的過程裡頭讓社會從這一次的國會擴權法案我們共同更去了解立法院的議事運作更去理解憲法所授權的五院的權力分立的原則"},{"start":9132.14,"end":9161.26,"text":"還有立法院縱使應當擁有調查權他應當有清楚的政官法律程序應當要符合相當的比例原則還有法律的明確性的事項這些都是社會好好對話非常重要的標的也是我認為就是這一次國會擴權法案通過之後的政治延長賽所帶給社會正面的意義就是繼續討論真相跟正義是會被釐清的好辛苦兩位也謝謝教委"},{"start":9163.662,"end":9181.301,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五"},{"start":9195.775,"end":9208.283,"text":"兩百四十五條司法院版跟行政院版就兩百四十五條的差異來救教兩位。就是我看到兩百四十五條的我們的行政院版"},{"start":9209.204,"end":9235.676,"text":"就是有第三項跟第四項第三項指前項限制或禁止事由應記名與筆錄第四項檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察或司法警察依第二項但書禁止辯護人在場致被告或犯罪嫌疑人無其他辯護人在場陪同應再行告知第九十五條第一項、第二款、第三款的事項"},{"start":9236.676,"end":9251.489,"text":"三十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四"},{"start":9252.009,"end":9277.077,"text":"刑事訴訟法第三項叫濟民筆錄這個事實上是落實我們現行的我們疫情注意事項是實務上規定如果有限制禁止我們本來就要求檢察官要濟民筆錄另外一個目的就是濟民筆錄之後讓被告或讓辯護人他可以救濟因為是連帶的救濟是因為只有濟民筆錄才可以你有救濟規定我知道那司法院版為什麼沒有請司法院委員向委員說明是現在"},{"start":9278.117,"end":9292.935,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":9293.342,"end":9320.964,"text":"共同認為說就後來及時廣義在那個過程齁在會選的時候司法院也都有提出各來來臨近共識啊所以現在現在這個議案是兩兩院的共識了是所以現在司法院也同意就是依照我們啊行政院的版是是是那我想這個版齁我提出一下我們事務上的一個運作的一個困難喔委員長因為當然這部分你是說因為啊"},{"start":9322.79,"end":9337.6,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":9338.901,"end":9363.919,"text":"人名譽之餘或其行為不當足以影響偵查秩序者的限制或禁止之。」這個限制或禁止是由第三項講要記名於筆錄。第四項講說又要去依照九十五條的規定。那你可以這個可能要可以讓他又可以再請辯護人並告訴他第二第三款的事項。第三款就是說他可以選任辯護人。"},{"start":9365.74,"end":9377.629,"text":"但是現在就是會有一個問題出現在實務上如果現在在偵查程序中檢察官那個被告請了律師來你如何判定說這個檢察官會有但書的情形發生在實務上你會判斷正在偵訊那檢察官就坐在下面啊他可能連一句話都還沒講欸"},{"start":9391.031,"end":9408.08,"text":"當然他要符合剛剛委員提的245條第二項但書的限制或禁止規定那甲官前提是他有一個事實的存在啊那甲官認為這個妨礙他所以我知道所以我說你如何第一時間判斷說這個辯護人他會有這些但書的事由存在然後去限制或禁止他來做辯護"},{"start":9409.591,"end":9426.035,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":9433.358,"end":9446.691,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、"},{"start":9448.152,"end":9455.513,"text":"或他會勾串共犯或證人,你從什麼事由來判斷?」所以這可能是不是第一次辯護,就是可能在經過歷次的偵查庭的詢問之後,應該是之後才會發生這種情況嗎?"},{"start":9476.789,"end":9491.736,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":9498.579,"end":9519.993,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之"},{"start":9521.798,"end":9534.919,"text":"這時候你要依照95條的規定你又要去告訴他說比如說你現在限制或禁止這一位律師到場來做辯護那你馬上又要告訴他依照95條第二項告訴他你可以再選任辯護人"},{"start":9537.592,"end":9547.178,"text":"二）刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":9561.363,"end":9580.697,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":9590.905,"end":9602.675,"text":"所以其實我是說現階段其實對我們辯護人禁止辯護的檢察官通常在實務上他認為這個律師如果他收集到相容證據即便沒有這些條文他還是可以禁止他辯護是不是這樣"},{"start":9606.414,"end":9625.092,"text":"就是一現階段沒有這條法律的設計如果檢察官在偵查案件中發現律師有但書的這幾款事由是不是也可以立即就限制他?限制法上本來就可以限制法就可以了嗎?對,只是限制法他沒有賦予救濟的途徑被憲判幾號宣告違憲了限制法的確就有這個機制是"},{"start":9626.613,"end":9654.174,"text":"所以嘛你為了要去救濟說你這個被限制或禁止於是有這個權利那但是跟要不要加這一條法條的一個設計這個就值得就說你被限制或禁止你的救濟規定你可以另外再去立一個救濟的規定但是你有沒有必要去在這個法條裡面弄個第三項第第四項這樣的一個規定有沒有必要因為你你現在現行法制就有了嘛"},{"start":9655.77,"end":9679.121,"text":"公文報告,我剛才提到第三項部分我們是把現行的做法把它明文化了,把進度比如明文化,那第四項部分其實是讓被告的辯護權更加的再度獲得確保當辯護人被禁止的時候,甲官必須要在權力告知有關於緘默權有關於選用辯護權相關規定,讓被告可以再做一次的這個選任這是對被告再度更確認的保障"},{"start":9680.061,"end":9700.814,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第"},{"start":9702.87,"end":9728.149,"text":"所以我的疑惑就是司法院版竟然沒有我會贊同司法院版我覺得司法院是不是應該當時那民主黨你再講清楚當時你們沒有這個版本沒有你們是有做什麼樣的考量是後來在會選的時候認為說行政院提出來是又更詳細啦又更詳細然後對整個人權的那個保障會更更有保障"},{"start":9729.97,"end":9745.716,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":9758.86,"end":9778.833,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":9779.633,"end":9790.157,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":9810.789,"end":9816.638,"text":"現在我們請吳宗憲委員發言謝謝那我們麻煩次長還有秘書長"},{"start":9824.289,"end":9825.871,"text":"國會改革法案初遭立法"},{"start":9846.205,"end":9868.844,"text":"因為剛剛兩位也沒有回答胡委員嘛那胡委員一直說因為有這個藐視國會罪所以你們不敢回答那我先跟兩位報告一下藐視國會這個東西目前還在行政院復議中並不是一個現行的條文還沒上路所以根本講這個是沒有意義的這是恐嚇兩位而已所以沒有這個問題第二個就是有關我們國家的立法"},{"start":9869.705,"end":9889.661,"text":"我國是成文法國家嘛那本來就是如此啊就是法律通過之後有了這個立法院有這個權限之後才會去思考接下來怎麼運作嗎我想任何一個條文包括行政包括那個公行政機關所使用的條文也都是這樣啊都是先一個"},{"start":9890.422,"end":9903.107,"text":"制度一個權利通過之後再由行政機關去就施行的細項去思考怎麼樣去做立法的動作所以這個不就是一個立法的常態嗎為什麼這個東西還可以反過來推論說是"},{"start":9906.428,"end":9933.564,"text":"國會改革法案沒有思考到調查官要不要設立所以這個叫做初操的立法我覺得這應該是胡志耀委員又搞不清楚法律了我在這邊再幫大家再上一課啦所以任何的法制的通過絕對是一個大範圍的概念先過了之後到行政機關或到相關的機關再去做細項的部分再做法律上的補充再立法所以並沒有說"},{"start":9936.126,"end":9963.577,"text":"這個國會無法這個沒有去思考到要由調查官還是由立法委員自己去聘用有偵查能力的助理沒有去思考到這個就叫出操立法我想這講這個只能說對法治真的是很不熟悉我想這個部分我就先說明一下再來我想請教一下司法院因為司法院我有看了你們這一次的那個報告"},{"start":9965.441,"end":9992.251,"text":"那你們這次報告有提到說將運用科技新興偵查手段規範於刑事訴訟法中未必與我國法律體系相符那我想請教一下秘書長那到底這次我提的草案或者是我們其他委員提的草案裡面有哪一條是跟現行的刑事訴訟法有相衝突這個最主要就是說假"},{"start":9994.173,"end":10013.72,"text":"現在相對性的假如說專法那當然專法處理那假如說要到刑事訴訟法的話那他就可能就是說要就整個刑事訴訟法他整個體系就要做一個盤整做一個盤整他假如是在裡面一個章節"},{"start":10015.721,"end":10038.843,"text":"因為這裡面也涉及到就是說我們在書面說明有提到比如說像刑事訴訟法228條第一項有賦予檢察官抽象的偵查犯罪前線那230條第二項、231條第二項賦予這個司法警察官還有司法警察調查犯罪的前線所以像這些"},{"start":10039.924,"end":10057.424,"text":"二）刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":10058.385,"end":10075.388,"text":"那怎麼來盤整的問題?那個民主黨你還是沒有回答我的問題啦其實我的問題很簡單就是因為貴院這次的報告裡面直接點名說我們提的這些東西要求設在刑事訴訟法裡面這個未必與我國法律體系相符啦"},{"start":10075.848,"end":10092.877,"text":"所以我一直很想就教就是說貴院這麼多法律人才那到底我提的法案我提的草案或是其他立委提的草案到底是哪一條跟我國刑事訴訟法體力衝突不相符合如果你只是講一個那種概念性的東西那等於沒有回答一樣啊"},{"start":10093.875,"end":10109.819,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一"},{"start":10116.121,"end":10130.844,"text":"警察或是司法警察的干預處分是目前來講是沒有救濟的但是只有就部分條文有救濟所以大概有一些相衝突包括章節的名稱的部分恐怕也會跟一些文字上也先做必要的調整上"},{"start":10131.144,"end":10132.866,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10149.537,"end":10172.202,"text":"我個人在這邊跟各位說明一下我認為說為什麼我一直我對於專法的部分內容我沒有太多意見但是為什麼我一直主張定在刑事訴訟法因為我認為說這個跟刑事訴訟法裡面搜索羈押、扣押這些東西都是相同概念的東西只是它是針對科技偵查或者是數位的資料"},{"start":10172.882,"end":10190.1,"text":"只是差在這個東西的不同所以不管是M化車、GPS或是熱血像這些其實這跟刑事訴訟法並沒有衝突啦所以我還是覺得說這個就是偵查中的強制處分本來就應該顯現在刑事訴訟法中這也跟德國的體力是一樣的"},{"start":10191.243,"end":10217.024,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10218.405,"end":10230.674,"text":"行政院說要訂定在專法裡面的原因是什麼?我到現在還是覺得有一點不可思議我再請教一下法務部請問一下為什麼要訂專法?"},{"start":10236.83,"end":10259.245,"text":"各位報告我各位報告其實我跟你講這不是說定在刑訴法也沒有問題但是基本上他是一個政策上的選擇就法務部在政策上他定一個專法就我們未來的整個政策實施會他修法方面也好或這個整個擴充也好比較容易所以我們是比較堅持說設在一個專法裡面我認為就是說如果你用那個一般賀足理論來看"},{"start":10260.646,"end":10279.582,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10280.583,"end":10305.644,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":10308.826,"end":10335.168,"text":"追蹤器的使用上的證據能力的問題一百一十一年也提到M化車使用上面的證據能力問題但是這麼久以來司法院卻完全不去就刑事訴訟法去修正所以導致這麼長的時間對於所有的犯罪偵查都出了問題這個不是只有出在詐欺案件這個出在所有的犯罪你可不可以去用就你今天用個打詐"},{"start":10336.598,"end":10360.934,"text":"怎麼集法這樣出來用這個名詞想要趕快把這個專法過我覺得如果我們今天是一個法治國家啦這東西能用不能用其實是針對所有的犯罪或是所有的特定犯罪而不能說好像我就是為了詐欺所以我搞了一個這個東西出來這一點我是沒有辦法理解所以我們再往下看"},{"start":10362.241,"end":10366.068,"text":"所以我認為說定在刑事訴訟法還是正本清源之道"},{"start":10367.945,"end":10395.957,"text":"有無證據能力或是證明力到甚麼地方這是法院法官的認定這不是檢察官的有權利可以說了就算所以說因為科技一直在變並不是說科技在變所以我要另立專法我覺得這個邏輯是有問題的應該是說科技一直在變所以我們要一個原則性的認定放在刑事訴訟法裡面這樣子才能夠保護人權這樣子才合理"},{"start":10397.148,"end":10406.567,"text":"所以我認為說我還是這樣建議啦如果可以的話我們還是就是說把它定在刑事訴訟法裡面"},{"start":10407.335,"end":10434.432,"text":"那我們在這一套對於這個科技偵查上面啊我們不但要做到事前的那個法官保留門檻的設計事中的程序監督還有事後的司法救濟以及相關是不是要通知比如說一些網路資料你之後是不是要通知當事人讓他有救濟的管道我覺得這都是我比較在乎的部分那這個部分再麻煩那個"},{"start":10436.681,"end":10456.573,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10457.91,"end":10480.859,"text":"是不是法務部要趕快會同司法院、警政署還有那個各支委員會的籌備處就科技偵查資料管理的內機跟內控的機制有一個完整的配套然後希望說兩個月內能夠給我好不好我想說這個才是首要的嘛因為我們已經講了很多次了"},{"start":10481.667,"end":10486.351,"text":"三個月內麻煩把這個報告提交三個月內就送交吳宗憲委員還有我們司法委員會的每位委員"},{"start":10508.856,"end":10529.363,"text":"謝謝兩位最後我要跟你們兩位說明一下我覺得對於數位的監控如果沒有一個完整的數位各自的保存機制以及控管的機制沒有人會喜歡這個尤其是最近王逸川事件之後很多人都覺得我的資料是被監控甚至在平常開玩笑的時候"},{"start":10530.307,"end":10552.662,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10564.639,"end":10579.56,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員下一位請賴世寶委員賴世寶委員賴世寶委員下一位我們請洪孟凱委員發言"},{"start":10587.457,"end":10608.157,"text":"主席謝謝我有看到我們有交通部民航局遙控無人機工作小組的執密是不是麻煩執密先請這執密來一下好不好我一個事情就教一下好執密"},{"start":10613.192,"end":10620.707,"text":"我請教我們現在民航局這邊有遙控無人機工作小組這些工作小組主要做的是什麼樣的工作?"},{"start":10621.478,"end":10627.463,"text":"主要針對民用航空法所規範的遙控無人機的管理事項針對遙控無人機的註冊、飛航活動申請還有相關的一些圖資的一些設定我們現在的科技來講比如說像我們講博愛特區這是很明顯的禁止遙控無人機這邊來做飛行對不對"},{"start":10642.915,"end":10665.501,"text":"如果說這個一般的王家業者他如果說要做飛行的話他沒有申請那他有可能會飛到博愛特去上空嗎他是不是有相關的科技方式來去做一個遮蔽或是干擾那這邊跟委員說明一下因為遙控無人機本身他是一個跟我們傳統的航空機不太一樣的地方是傳統航空機都是飛機製造商設計製造出來的"},{"start":10666.841,"end":10682.337,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10689.904,"end":10712.796,"text":"所以就這個部分來講在技術上面如何去對現在我們的遙控無人機的管理的話是行政程序上面不管是註冊或者是飛航活動申請甚至相關的法人跟自然人的權利義務大概都有一定的規範那只是我的問題你完全沒有針對我問題回答我現在問的是說如果說有些地方就是禁止飛航禁止用遙控無人機那"},{"start":10713.576,"end":10742.072,"text":"能夠用什麼樣的科技方式來去做一個阻擇是不是比如說像電子地圖這邊可以用遮蔽還是用什麼樣的方式讓他在那個地方訊號就可以沒有辦法來做飛行現在分成兩種一種是比較主動的做法的話就是在遙控無人機在設計制造的時候大的廠商他們會在裡面設計所謂的電子圍籬的方式去做處理這是一個目前現在最普遍的一個方式但是這樣子做的話只能對於"},{"start":10743.152,"end":10753.858,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":10770.586,"end":10787.394,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":10795.618,"end":10819.691,"text":"我覺得任何一個地方的無人機都不應該來去做侵犯我國領空的事情啊但到目前為止為什麼一直沒有這樣的防範那民航局這邊有相關的這個工作小組有沒有什麼專業的意見是可以提供就是說到底如果說有無人機它是進入到我國的領空而且這明顯就不是我們的無人機的話我們怎麼樣能夠把它打下來還是說只能用丟石頭的方式"},{"start":10820.606,"end":10841.811,"text":"五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之"},{"start":10844.312,"end":10865.28,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10866.152,"end":10882,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":10893.846,"end":10909.076,"text":"三）刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之"},{"start":10918.922,"end":10945.578,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五"},{"start":10948.22,"end":10963.689,"text":"因為我們很多委員都在關心是說到底這個是要專章還是要做這個刑事訴訟法的一個修法啦齁那其中我們這一次的這個科證法的一個專法的部分那有一個採取的是法官保留原則"},{"start":10964.349,"end":10989.835,"text":"但是很多人也講法官現在的人力跟量能是不是足夠能夠讓第一線的執法者能夠負荷就意思就是說如果說專法的話之後檢警要使用科技方式偵查的話都必須要有法院的申請核可或是獲得核可書是不是那在看怎麼修法那目前現在看起來行政部門提出來的版本是這樣子嗎"},{"start":10991.135,"end":11008.665,"text":"刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百"},{"start":11009.113,"end":11022.547,"text":"那當然現在法官人力很吃緊嘛。是。很吃緊啊。很吃緊。所以這個就是說在相對重要的才法官保留啦。"},{"start":11024.392,"end":11051.226,"text":"相對重要的部分（等一等可是現在我們看到是說如果說以現在行政院所推出來的科技偵查跟保障法來做這樣專法的話那一方面希望能夠要有強化破案的工具但一方面又要兼顧人權保障所以草案的部分只要看到檢察官或是司法檢察需要實施調查各環節都會綁著法官保留原則就是都需要跟法院申請核可啊"},{"start":11051.886,"end":11066.555,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第三百五條之"},{"start":11069.016,"end":11069.897,"text":"條文修正草案案 刑事訴訟法"},{"start":11085.986,"end":11107.601,"text":"這會不會反而到時候這樣的壓力也加諸在法官身上?這個目前看起來並不會說因為專法就法官人力就會比較少啦,並不會啦因為從這樣相關這樣比對起來都是差不多要法官保留的部分啦,都差不多啦"},{"start":11108.533,"end":11111.294,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案．刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":11134.281,"end":11158.727,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":11159.946,"end":11175.322,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":11176.203,"end":11191.033,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":11191.914,"end":11217.396,"text":"法官該保留然後法官該盡責的部分我們還是要努力啊該爭取言惡那是另外一個層次的問題啊。好民眾長我們之後也會再針對這部分來做相關的主條討論那其實現在有委員的版本以及這行政院希望能夠科證法的版本專法或是修刑事訴訟法我覺得在這個主條的部分該有司法院的一個態度跟角色事實你還是要提出來"},{"start":11217.776,"end":11236.425,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":11241.019,"end":11264.643,"text":"謝謝那我們下一位請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員"},{"start":11268.618,"end":11282.497,"text":"那相關所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢尋答結束那委員諮詢時要求提供的相關資料或書面答覆請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":11283.638,"end":11293.068,"text":"二）委員翁曉林所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆。我們現在先處理會議時間。上午會議時間繼續進行至議程討論事項的處理。"},{"start":11301.239,"end":11310.849,"text":"現在進行討論事項請議事人員先宣讀提案條文如果有修正動議請一併宣讀宣讀時間大約是35分鐘宣讀完畢之後休息到1點30分再繼續開會進行討論請宣讀"},{"start":11323.334,"end":11340.623,"text":"四十五條之一、第六十七條之第六十九條之規定與持務申請撤銷或變更檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察處分之期間者准用之。"},{"start":11341.924,"end":11365.227,"text":"五條之一、台灣民眾黨黨團及委員吳宗憲等提案第十一章之一章明均為科技偵查委員宗嘉斌等提案第十一條之一章明科技偵查及保障委員吳宗憲等提案第153條之一為規範科技偵查以保障人權並有效追溯犯罪確保國家安全維護社會秩序特制定本章"},{"start":11365.928,"end":11388.17,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之一,檢察官於偵查中任有必要時,得使用科技方法對位於非具隱私或秘密合理期待之空間內之人或物實施調查。檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察應調查犯罪情形及收集證據任有必要時,亦同"},{"start":11389.051,"end":11404.128,"text":"但本法或其他法律有特別規定者依其規定。委員吳宗憲等提案第153條之二檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察應偵查或犯罪或調查犯罪情形及收集證據之必要"},{"start":11406.27,"end":11424.081,"text":"則使用科技方法但本法或其他法律有特別規定者依其規定。委員中嘉賓等提案第153條之一對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案除首具修正為偵查中檢察官任有必要時倒數第二具中本法修正為本章其餘從台灣民眾黨黨團提案。"},{"start":11426.242,"end":11444.139,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之二檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察依前條規定於空中實施調查者實施至期間不得於累計14日檢查事務官司法警察官任有再次或繼續實施是必要者"},{"start":11444.94,"end":11460.469,"text":"四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三"},{"start":11460.889,"end":11480.218,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一"},{"start":11481.238,"end":11504.37,"text":"前向實施期間不得於連續二十四小時或累積於二日,實施當日不足二十四小時者宜日記。第一項所定之追蹤未至有再次或繼續實施是必要者,因於再次實施前或前向期間屆滿前,由檢察官依職員或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後,"},{"start":11505.11,"end":11516.177,"text":"以書面記載第153條之七第一項各款知識項並續名實施調查即必要性及其理由向該管法院申請合法許可書"},{"start":11518.525,"end":11538.493,"text":"實施前二項調查前可預期實施期間將於連續二十四小時或累計於二日者得於實施前依前項規定向該管法院申請和發許可書。前二項法院許可之期間每次不得於三十日,有繼續實施之必要者應於期間屆滿前至二日前。"},{"start":11541.32,"end":11556.577,"text":"之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由令向該管法院重新申請核發許可書。前三項之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符。"},{"start":11557.659,"end":11584.989,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第153條之三檢察官、檢察署官、司法警察官或司法警察因偵查或調查犯罪情形及收集證據之必要得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人資料之科技方法追蹤位置實施期間以連續二十四小時或累計二日為限未滿一日者以一日論。"},{"start":11586.169,"end":11612.532,"text":"前項期間建碼後仍有實施必要者應由檢察官或司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第153條之六第一項各款知識項及理由申請該管法院合法許可書使用第一項科技方法前以預期實施將與連續24小時或累計於二日者亦應事先向法院申請合法許可書。"},{"start":11613.793,"end":11621.299,"text":"國營宗家兵等提案第一百五十三條之二對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一百五十三條之三第一項至第五項"},{"start":11623.157,"end":11646.646,"text":"除第一項首具修正為偵查中檢察官任有必要時第二句末句號修正為分號令增訂第二項前項措施限於對被告或犯罪嫌疑人為之但有事實認為與被告有聯繫或將建立聯繫之人且難以採其他方式調查被告或犯罪嫌疑人所在地時亦得為之"},{"start":11647.586,"end":11675.34,"text":"第三項由台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二項及第三項條文合併並將首具、具首的前項修正為第一項第三具末者自刪除,原第三項的首具刪除另第六具修正為致辭因於再次實施前或期間屆滿前另末具修正為以書面記載第153條之五第一項各款之事項向該管法院申請合法許可書"},{"start":11676.889,"end":11694.348,"text":"第五項第二句末鬥號修正為句號,第四句句首增定至遲二字,末句修正為以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請合法許可書,其餘同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之三、第一項之第五項。"},{"start":11698.593,"end":11718.562,"text":"三條之四、檢查關於偵查中任有必要時得使用科技方法、調查行動通訊設備之位置、設備號碼或使用之卡片號碼、檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察因調查犯罪及收集證據任有必要時一同。"},{"start":11721.424,"end":11732.759,"text":"五條之四、檢察官、檢察書官、司法警察官或司法警察應偵查或調查犯罪及收集證據之必要,得使用科技方法調查行動通訊設備之位置。"},{"start":11735.682,"end":11755.252,"text":"設備號碼或使用紙卡片號碼前向情形應由檢察官或司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第153條之六第一項各款知識項與理由申請該管法院核發許可書實施第一項調查時記述無可避免取得之第三人資料"},{"start":11756.423,"end":11767.921,"text":"除工作為第一項之比對目的外不得使用且於實施調查結束後應即刪除。」委員中嘉賓等提案第153條之三"},{"start":11772.399,"end":11791.415,"text":"對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一項對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之四除首具修正為偵查中檢察官任有必要時第二具末具號修正為分號第三具中因調查犯罪後增定情形二字"},{"start":11792.356,"end":11808.144,"text":"四十五條之一及於同台灣民眾黨黨團提案應第二項至第五項條文為前項措施限於對被告或犯罪嫌疑人為之但有事實認為接收或轉達於被告、犯罪嫌疑人或"},{"start":11809.244,"end":11837.692,"text":"原於被告犯罪嫌疑人之訊息之人或被告犯罪嫌疑人使用其通訊線路或資訊設備之人亦得為之。第一項情形因由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第153條之五第一項各款之事項向該管法院申請核發許可書。前項許可之期間每次不得於三十日"},{"start":11838.252,"end":11865.125,"text":"有繼續實施之必要者致時應於期間屆滿之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請可發許可書實施第一項調查時應技術上無可避免取得第三人之個人資料除未公第一項之比對目的外不得使用且於調查實施結束後應其刪除"},{"start":11865.925,"end":11895.366,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之五,檢察官就最重本刑三年以上有企圖刑之罪進行偵查中有相當理由認為具隱私或秘密合理期待之空間內之人或物與所偵查之犯罪事實相關,得使用非侵入性之科技方法自該空間外對該空間內之活動或事物進行監看及攝影"},{"start":11897.421,"end":11907.089,"text":"三）檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察因調查最重本刑三年以上有期徒刑之罪、知犯罪情形及收集證據任有必要時議同"},{"start":11910.4,"end":11934.875,"text":"五條之五、檢察官、檢察署官、司法警察官或司法警察偵查或調查最輕本刑三年以上有期徒刑之罪由事實主任具隱私或秘密合理期待之空間內之人或物與本案有關者得在該空間外使用非實體侵入之科技方法監視或涉入該空間內之人或物"},{"start":11936.024,"end":11956.495,"text":"前項情形應由檢察官或司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第一百五十三條之六條第一項各款之四項與條與理由申請該管法院合法許可書第一百二十七條之規定準用之文宗教兵等提案第一百五十三條之四"},{"start":11957.396,"end":11971.893,"text":"檢察官、偵察或檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本刑三年以上有歧途刑之罪,有相當理由認為具隱私或秘密合理期待之空間內之人或物與本案有關。"},{"start":11974.69,"end":11995.221,"text":"則從該空間外使用非實體侵入性質科技方法對開空間內之人或物堅看及攝錄影像,前項情形應由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第153條之五第一項各款知識項向該管法院申請核發許可書。"},{"start":11996.221,"end":12014.706,"text":"前項許可之期間每次不得於三十日有機率實施之必要者,至時應於期間屆滿至二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官、報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請合法許可書第一項之調查準用第127條之規定台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之六"},{"start":12019.454,"end":12043.793,"text":"前二條之情形應由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第一百五十三條之七第一項各款之事項並敘述實施調查之必要性及其理由向該管法院申請核發許可書。前項許可之期間每次不得於三十日有積蓄實施之必要者應於期間屆滿之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢查。"},{"start":12046.155,"end":12062.065,"text":"或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請核發許可書。前二項之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之七法院一第153條之三第153條之六"},{"start":12064.887,"end":12085.832,"text":"和發之許可書應記載下列事項一（案由其涉嫌觸犯制法條二（受調查之人或物但受調查人不明者得不予記載三（使用之科技方法及其設備與實施方式四（使用科技方法調查所得取得之資料"},{"start":12087.438,"end":12099.463,"text":"五執行機關六許可實施之期間許可書由法官簽名法官並得於許可書上對執行機關為適當之指示合法許可書之程序不公開之"},{"start":12101.38,"end":12126.838,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第一百五十三條之六、第一百五十三條之三至第一百五十三條之五之許可書應記載下列事項一、案由及涉犯之法條二、受調查人或物但受調查人不明者得不予記載三、使用之科技方法及得取得之標的四、科技方法之裝設或實施方式五、執行機關六實施期間"},{"start":12127.739,"end":12148.076,"text":"第153條之三與第153條之四之調查期間不得於三十日有繼續實施之必要者應由檢察官或司法警察官報請檢察官許可後檢據具體理由致詞於期間屆滿至二日前申請該管法院裁定延長之每次延長不得於三十日。"},{"start":12149.097,"end":12169.515,"text":"五十三條之五之調查期間已累積十日為限,未滿一日者以一日論。法院合法許可書之程序不公開之但得為許可書上對執行人員為適當之指示。第一百五十三條之三至第一百五十三條之五之申請請法院駁回者不得聲明不符。"},{"start":12170.575,"end":12192.322,"text":"文宗貂兵等提案第一百五十三條之五、第一百五十三條之二之第一百五十三條之四之許可書應記載下列事項一、案由及涉犯之法條二、受調查人或物但受調查人不明者得不予記載三、使用之科技方法及使用該科技方法調查得取得之標的"},{"start":12193.622,"end":12208.797,"text":"四前款之裝涉或實施方式五實施調查之必要性及其理由六執行機關期實施期間合法許可書之程序不公開之法院並得於許可書上對執行人員為適當之指示"},{"start":12211.363,"end":12226.214,"text":"第一百五十三條之二至第一百五十三條之四之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一百五十三條之八與下列情形之一檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察"},{"start":12226.954,"end":12241.645,"text":"有相當理由認為情況急迫而有再次繼續或立即實施各該科技方法之必要者得進行實施並因於實施後三日內依該規定以書面申請該管法院補發許可書。"},{"start":12243.286,"end":12272.185,"text":"一、實施第153條之三、第一項之調查以於連續二十四小時或以累計於二日。二、實施第153條之四、第153條之五之調查。前項之調查有下列情形之一者應立即停止。一、檢察官不許可或於報勤日期於三日未為許可之決定。二、法院不補發許可書或於申請日期於三日未為補發許可書之裁定。法院許可者"},{"start":12273.569,"end":12279.748,"text":"實施期間至實施之日起算第一項之申請請法院博會者不得聲明不符"},{"start":12282.705,"end":12304.771,"text":"五條之七、檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察使用第一百五十三條之三之科技方法以於連續二十四小時或累計於二日後,有相當理由認為情況急迫有立即實施必要者得進行為之,並因於實施後三日內由檢察官或司法警察官報請檢察官許可。"},{"start":12305.471,"end":12324.322,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第"},{"start":12327.267,"end":12341.088,"text":"二）法院駁回申請或申請日期三日內未補發許可書。法院補發許可書者,實施期間至實施之日起算。第一項之申請經駁回者不得聲明不符。"},{"start":12342.625,"end":12356.926,"text":"委員仲嘉斌等提案第153條之六於下列情形之一檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察有相當理由認為情況急迫而有利及實施是必要者得進行實施並因於實施後三日內"},{"start":12357.867,"end":12381.78,"text":"一（各該條規定以書面申請該管法院補發許可書一（實施第153條之二第一項之調查已於連續二十四小時或已累積於二日實施當日不足二十四小時以一日計二（實施第153條之三或第153條之四之調查前項之調查有下列情形之一者應立即停止實施"},{"start":12382.921,"end":12394.875,"text":"一、檢察官不許可或於報請日期於三日未為許可之決定二）法院未補發許可書或於申請日期於三日未為補發許可書之裁定。"},{"start":12396.192,"end":12416.799,"text":"法院補發許可書者實施期間日實施之日起算第一項之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之九經法院第一第153條之三第153條之六前條第一項合法許可書實施之調查結束後呼籲前條第二項停止實施後"},{"start":12417.979,"end":12436.062,"text":"執行機關應及訓名受調查人之姓名住所或居所第153條之七第一項各款及許可書文號實際調查期間有無獲得調查目的之資料及救濟程序報由檢察官呈報法院通知受調查人"},{"start":12437.458,"end":12450.954,"text":"如任通知有防害調查目的之予或不能通知者應一併呈報。調查結束或停止實施後檢查關於一個月人位於前項之呈報者人位為前項之呈報者"},{"start":12452.97,"end":12469.805,"text":"法院應於十四日內主動通知受調查人但不能通知者不在此限。法院對於第一項呈報除有具體理由主任通知有妨礙調查目的之餘或不能通知之情形外應通知受調查人"},{"start":12470.405,"end":12488.139,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":12489.5,"end":12513.465,"text":"委員胡宗憲等提案第153條之八、一、第153條之二至第153條之五、第153條之七至調查結束或停止後執行機關應續名受調查人至姓名、住所或居所許可書合發機關文號實際調查期間有無獲得調查目的之資料及救濟程序呈報該管檢察官及法院由法院通知受調查人"},{"start":12514.205,"end":12528.436,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、"},{"start":12536.923,"end":12556.544,"text":"除有具體理由、主任通知有妨害調查目的之餘、通知顯有困難或不能通知者外應通知受調查人不通知之原因消滅後執行機關應呈報法院補刑通知原因未消滅者應於第一項呈報後每三個月向法院呈報未消滅之情形"},{"start":12557.105,"end":12573.9,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五"},{"start":12574.881,"end":12591.649,"text":"第153條之二至第153條之五、第153條之七之調查所得資料除以公案件證據之用留存於該案件或為後續偵查或調查目的有必要長期留存者外由執行機關"},{"start":12592.769,"end":12601.956,"text":"於調查結束後保存五年欲期欲銷毀。調查所的資料全部與調查目的無關者執行機關應及報請檢察官許可後銷毀之。且二項資料銷毀時應報請檢察官派員在場"},{"start":12609.793,"end":12630.264,"text":"委員宗嘉斌等提案第153條之七對照委員吳宗憲等提案第153條之八除第一項前段修正為經法院一第153條之二至第153條之四前條核發或補發許可書實施之調查結束或依前條第二項停止實施後"},{"start":12631.405,"end":12653.36,"text":"令倒數第二句中通知前增定通言二字第二項修正為調查結束或停止實施後執行機關於一個月未為前項之呈報者法院應十四日內主動通知受調查人但通知前有困難或不能通知者法院得不通知受調查人"},{"start":12655.322,"end":12681.722,"text":"第三項第二句末不能通知者修正為不能通知之情形第四項首句句首前增定第一項等三個字另第五項由委員吳宗憲等提案第六項及第七項條文合併並將首句修正為第153條之二至第153條之四前條之調查所得之資料其餘通委員吳宗憲等提案第153條之八第一項至第四項第六項及第七項條文"},{"start":12683.263,"end":12704.403,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之十、第153條之一至第153條之六、第153條之八之調查所得資料除以公案件證據之用而留存於個案卷或為後續偵查或調查之目的而有必要與留存者外,由執行機關於調查結束後保存五年。"},{"start":12704.923,"end":12709.304,"text":"五十三條之一至第一百五十三條之八之規定實施調查文無宗憲等提案第一百五十三條之九"},{"start":12735.632,"end":12762.525,"text":"為執行刑事裁判除其他法律令有規定外檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察得准用第153條之二至第153條之八之規定實施調查。委員仲佳斌等提案第153條之八為執行刑事裁判除其他法律令有規定外檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察得准用第153條之一至前條之規定實施調查。"},{"start":12765.628,"end":12779.521,"text":"三條之十二、受調查人對於第一百五三條之三之第一百五三條之六、第一百五三條之八第一百五三條之十一之裁定或處分不符者得提起抗告或申請撤銷或變更之"},{"start":12780.674,"end":12784.698,"text":"五條之五、第153條之七及第153條之九之裁定或處分不符者得依本法提起抗告或申請撤銷或變更之"},{"start":12797.529,"end":12817.459,"text":"五條之一、第二百五十三條之九、受調查人對於第一百五十三條之二至第一百五十三條之五、第一百五十三條之六、第一百五十三條之八之裁定或處分不符者,得依本法第四邊之規定提起抗告或申請撤銷或變更之,委員中加並等提案第一百五十三條之十。"},{"start":12818.659,"end":12832.15,"text":"法官或檢察官執行本章而由法官法第三十條第二項或第八十九條第四項各款刑事質疑者應移送個案評鑑。文宗嘉賓等提案第153條之十一、一第153條之二至第153條之四"},{"start":12833.951,"end":12851.354,"text":"五條或第一百五十三條之六之調查取得其他案件之內容者不得作為證據但於發現後七日內五行呈報法院並經法院審查認可該案件與時事科技偵查這案件具有關聯性者不再此現"},{"start":12852.395,"end":12868.307,"text":"一、第一百五三條之二至第一百五三條之四或第一百五三條之六之調查所取得之內容或所衍生之證據與偵查目的無關者不得作為司法偵查審判其他程序之證據或其他用途並予以銷毀"},{"start":12870.442,"end":12889.699,"text":"違反第153條之二至第153條之四或第153條之六規定進行科技偵查行為所取得之內容或所衍生之證據於司法偵查、審判或其他程序中均不得采為證據或其他用途並因予以銷毀。司法院行政院提案"},{"start":12891.167,"end":12907.655,"text":"檢案司法院版第二百四十五條除第二項第三具修正為並得筆記及陳述意見。第四具具首但有事實主任其在場二字三除其餘未修正。"},{"start":12909.775,"end":12936.527,"text":"以案行政院版第二百四十五條對照假案司法院版除增訂第三項及第四項為前項限制或禁止事由應記名與筆錄檢察官檢察署官司法警察官或司法警察依第二項但書禁止辯護人在場是被告或犯罪嫌疑人無其他辯護人在場陪同應在刑告之第九十五條第一項第二款第三款之事項"},{"start":12937.948,"end":12961.567,"text":"令第五項至第七項由原第三項至第四項條文遞移其於同假案司法院版。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二百四十五條對照已案行政院版除第二項第三具修正為並得陳述意見及筆記令第三項及第四項修正為依前項但書限制或禁止筆記時"},{"start":12962.768,"end":12982.908,"text":"有相當理由認為情況急迫有立即扣押之必要者得進行扣押其筆記並準用第一百三十三條之二第四項規定。第二項段數限制或禁止之事由及前項進行扣押之情形與理由均應盡名於筆錄其與同議案行政院反"},{"start":12985.424,"end":13009.964,"text":"委員羅智強等提案第二百四十五條除第五項修正為第一項偵查不公開之作業與處罰另以法律定之其餘未修正委員沈博洋等提案第二百四十五條除第二項後段修正為並得隨時與被告或犯罪嫌疑人溝通陳述意見以筆記或以其他電子設備輔助記錄在場之見聞其餘未修正"},{"start":13016.044,"end":13035.557,"text":"司法院、行政院提案、假案司法院版第二百四十五條之一、被告犯罪嫌疑人及其辯護人對於前條第二項但書之限制或禁止不負責,得向該管法院申請撤銷或變更之。前項申請期間為十日,自為限制或"},{"start":13036.718,"end":13047.896,"text":"禁止之日起算其為送達者自送達後起算法院不得已以執行終結而無失意為由撥回"},{"start":13050.834,"end":13070.469,"text":"四十九條及第四百十四條及第四百十七條及第四百十八條規定於本條準用之。議案行政院判第二百四十五條之一對照假案司法院判除第三項條文中第四百十八條後增訂第二項。"},{"start":13072.068,"end":13097.416,"text":"令增定第四項條文為對於第一項之裁定不得抗告其餘同假案。司法院反委員審博揚等提案第二百四十五條之一有事實主任被告之辯護人有妨害國家機密或有湮滅偽造、變造證據或勾串共犯或證人者檢察官應申請法院限制前條第二項之權利"},{"start":13099.042,"end":13114.555,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":13125.953,"end":13143.738,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四"},{"start":13144.98,"end":13162.11,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":13164.158,"end":13191.977,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第四百十六條除第一項增訂第四款為對於第二百四十五條第二項但書限制或禁止辯護人在場陳述意見或筆記之處分令第五款由原第四款條文遞移其餘未修正宣讀完畢現在休息依先前宣告下午一點三十分繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":16294.428,"end":16295.213,"text":"四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之"},{"start":18112.807,"end":18139.803,"text":"好謝謝大家那我們繼續開會討論事項提案條文均已宣讀完畢現在進行討論事項並案審查司法院行政院函請審議刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案等六案好那請問就在座的各位委員是否要進行大體討論"},{"start":18143.359,"end":18150.884,"text":"我是建議直接進主條啦。好,謝謝。好,那就這部分呢那我們就省略大敵討論,直接進行主條審查。好。"},{"start":18170.657,"end":18192.582,"text":"好那我們現在就徵定第七十條之一請各位委員表達意見啊沈委員啊主席齁這個第七十條之一應該是舊舊紀的條文嘛齁那舊紀的條文"},{"start":18196.601,"end":18223.714,"text":"我想如果大家沒有什麼意見我們是建議就照行政院的版本來通過好不好請問司法院或法務部有沒有意見要表示沒有意見那都沒有意見的話我們就依照司法院行政院提案通過議案行政院版通過"},{"start":18225.037,"end":18241.312,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。再來,徵定第十一章之一章名。總共有台灣民眾黨團提案以及委員吳宗憲等二十人提案及委員鍾嘉斌等十八人提案。請問各位委員有無意見要補充。"},{"start":18247.438,"end":18274.115,"text":"好,沈委員主席這個部分是不是我們因為跟這個科技偵查法接下來跟科這個也跟未來會不到底是科技偵查法跟這個刑事訴訟法的我們那時候上個禮拜是說這兩岸並就並程到那個政黨協商裡面去協商那所以是不是我這程序上是不是我們都照案通過還是都保留"},{"start":18274.955,"end":18298.972,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":18318.8,"end":18329.389,"text":"這跟各位委員報告因為他有一些在條號上面還是有所不同所以是不是我們用保留送協商的方式比較好"},{"start":18330.285,"end":18345.297,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":18347.302,"end":18371.878,"text":"這裡面有一些版本並不全然與科技偵查法重疊。有一些溢出了科技偵查法的範圍。所以我是建議說我們還是一條一條處理。但是這個章明的部分我們先保留送協商以這個對未來保留跟未來科技偵查法在協商的時候的結果再來決定。"},{"start":18374,"end":18374.261,"text":"三）委員羅智強"},{"start":18392.137,"end":18413.662,"text":"國昌委員你們的想法怎麼樣可以啊因為當初其實在審科證法的時候大家就有一個共識了嘛那就科證法的部分到時候是要跟刑事訴訟法那我們一起要在黨團協商的過程當中來於第一個做立法上面的決斷嘛那第二個"},{"start":18415.222,"end":18431.374,"text":"條文細緻的部分到那個時候可以再進行進一步的討論因為如果說連到底要採取科偵法還是要採取刑訴法立法體力上面最上位的問題大家都已經同意要保留的話"},{"start":18432.812,"end":18459.114,"text":"當然就這個章名的部分予以保留我覺得是一個合理的選擇因為如果連最上位的問題都保留下面我們今天通過了什麼樣的章名通過了什麼樣的條文那不就代表了是說我們今天在委員會已經做出決策要把它放在刑訴法嗎?確定要這樣子做嗎?還是說確定這件事情是要在委員會的層級來予以討論嗎?"},{"start":18462.796,"end":18488.273,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第百五條之一、第百五條之一、第"},{"start":18492.256,"end":18502.103,"text":"就採取用刑事訴訟法立法的模式嗎?」那如果今天在委員會大家有共識就要採取用刑事訴訟法立法的體力的話"},{"start":18503.353,"end":18524.255,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":18526.757,"end":18545.222,"text":"連最上位立法體力的方式大家都同意保留協商那就沒有必要在張明的這個地方現在好像急著或是硬要要去做什麼確定的處理我基本上面的看法是這個樣子那因為昭緯自己也是其中一個重要版本的提案人嘛"},{"start":18546.562,"end":18571.707,"text":"我先代表台灣民眾黨黨團表示我們的看法當然我也尊重召委以及司法法制委員會其他委員的高見好 謝謝那這樣子齁我們就是一樣尊重嘛就是身為你們覺得還是一條一條發言嘛 對不對然後我們最後可能若照這樣的話可能每個條文最後都還是要走向保留啦好 謝謝"},{"start":18574.093,"end":18594.715,"text":"好那好民主黨在這邊提出一個問題就是說那假如司法因為現在到最後如何都還未定那假如說司法院對這個第十一章之一假如說張明然後有一些意見這個能不能互代提出來"},{"start":18596.442,"end":18613.516,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":18615.493,"end":18639.86,"text":"司法院如果連書面都準備好現在發一發啦沒有必要長航第一次質詢你這個問題的時候我就一直問司法院有沒有想法有沒有參與有沒有版本那既然司法院包括我們刑事廳的同仁都有一些想法出來的話歡迎你們把司法院的書面提出來因為我們如果到時候"},{"start":18640.62,"end":18665.508,"text":"政策決斷上面要定在刑事訴訟法的話我們當然也希望能夠聆聽司法院的一些高見所以你們現在有版本有書面現在就全部是不是發給各位委員?都都有版本因為不管怎樣刑事訴訟法是司法院主政的我們當然要就各種可能情況我們也準備一大本準備一大本"},{"start":18668.117,"end":18684.567,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":18685.034,"end":18712.863,"text":"我們一共有準備這個37頁啦因為畢竟怎樣這是我們主政的嘛所以秘書長你今天要拿出來嘛如果拿出來我們就列入公報紀錄裡面對啊就是提出來因為一步一步啊因為今天到這種程序我們還是要提出來啊我沒有意見就是看秘書長你要不要提出來就是給大家然後我這邊也幫你列入公報的紀錄還是提出來"},{"start":18714.529,"end":18730.662,"text":"就是還是要提出來啦還是要提出來因為那這個是不是說如果你們沒有那麼多份那你交給我們議事人員由議事人員去引印給大家好不好一共37頁啦37頁我們"},{"start":18733.018,"end":18735.78,"text":"二）司法院及法務部對於徵定第十一章之一章名的部分你們要補充什麼嗎?"},{"start":18763.016,"end":18784.186,"text":"如果沒有意見要補充的話,那本章章名的部分,因為我們看到他的體力的問題,他是放在第一篇的總則章裡面。那原先的章名是用科技偵查,會跟第二篇的第一節,那個所謂的偵查那個名字會重複啦。"},{"start":18785.126,"end":18807.364,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":18812.973,"end":18829.053,"text":"因為你的特殊齁其實你也是在反映他科技偵查的本質嘛那你如果說就特殊的強制處分就是科技偵查的強制處分那這樣子的一個章名是不是更能夠反映這個章裡面條文實質的內容"},{"start":18831.058,"end":18831.979,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具"},{"start":18849.693,"end":18865.478,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":18866.678,"end":18890.339,"text":"已經遠遠跟不上科技進步的腳步了但在本質上因為你那種特殊的強制處分的這一種章名之本身還是沒有辦法反映這一章裡面你所要規範的一個內容所以我贊成結論保留但就章名的部分就是說剛剛司法院某個程度上也說尊重"},{"start":18891.32,"end":18907.52,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第六百四十五條之"},{"start":18908.021,"end":18930.438,"text":"也可以請司法院因為我們今天大概就是把條文大家表示一下看法把它走過去那最後到決斷的時候啦按照上一次會議的結論還是要到黨團協商嘛那在這段時間當中也可以請我們司法院不管是廳長還是秘書長回去再好好的思考一下"},{"start":18937.661,"end":18939.203,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":18956.909,"end":18984.591,"text":"接下來我們審查第153條之一有委員吳宗憲等二十人提案請問就本條徵定的部分各位委員有沒有意見要補充?總委員主席我們這個153之一分別在民眾黨團版跟我個人的版本當中它就直接進入了所謂的政策空間的定義那這個有點像是一個章節的一個"},{"start":18987.005,"end":19000.229,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案的說明,而我是覺得因為體力上另外兩個版本沒有寫這一個,那未來我們再進入到後面的153之一的民眾黨黨本的時候,就會變得會"},{"start":19003.732,"end":19005.614,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":19026.09,"end":19052.803,"text":"那還是說就這個部分大家反正就保留我們送協商嘛因為我這個題其實跟其他黨的153之一其實是不一樣除非你說對我這個內容有意見是好謝謝那就是委員吳宗憲等20人提案的153之一條文我們就予以保留送協商另外還有一個"},{"start":19057.222,"end":19066.757,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":19067.565,"end":19088,"text":"這個都還未定嘛,假如定在刑事訴訟法站在司法院的立場一定要做總的盤整啦。一定是要這樣盤整的啦。所以等一下我們印下去的37頁我們是不得不把所有條文都要盤整啦。初步我們是認為這一條沒有增訂的必要啦。那當然就"},{"start":19088.82,"end":19113.453,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":19113.973,"end":19131.778,"text":"三十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條"},{"start":19144.976,"end":19161.541,"text":"三十七頁的資料我們都會列入公報那在協商的時候我想說大家也會拿出來討論啊如果說看法跟這個這三頁內容一樣的話口頭上面是不用多補充好謝謝秘書長好那我們現在在審查地好"},{"start":19165.781,"end":19182.88,"text":"我們在審查第三號就徵令第153條之一有台灣民眾黨提案及委員吳宗憲等20人提案徵令第153條之二還有委員鍾嘉賓等18人提案請問就徵令的153條之一郭委員有沒有意見要補充請黃委員"},{"start":19188.483,"end":19205.153,"text":"因為在立法的體力上我必須要說之前法務部說你們要用228跟230當作基礎但我可能要邀請法務部再回去把228跟230再重新看一次228跟230他在處理的是有關於偵查的發動"},{"start":19206.494,"end":19230.917,"text":"以及檢察官對於檢察事務官也好對於司法警察也好他們所在發動的偵查的指揮權也就是這個屬於上對下人對人偵查發動以及人對人的指揮權的部分他事實上沒有涉及到偵查手段的部分沒有涉及到偵查手段的部分"},{"start":19232.599,"end":19247.538,"text":"當228跟230沒有涉及到偵查手段的部分你們很快的去下一個結論說用228、230就可以我對於法務部下這樣子的結論我是有一點擔心的因為"},{"start":19248.399,"end":19266.376,"text":"你們下這樣子的結論接下來法院在實際的審判上面會不會支持你所講這樣子的結論我真的有一點擔心那如果是這樣子的話就有關於偵查手段的部分手段的部分我們剛剛講過了"},{"start":19267.937,"end":19283.383,"text":"強制處分的手段有搜索扣押等等等等針對手段的部分然後有一個比較明確的有一個比較明確的授權條款我會認為比較符合我們在刑事訴訟法裡面針對法定證據主義"},{"start":19286.944,"end":19305.507,"text":"所採取的立法力的精神。」我希望這件事情法務部可以再慎重的想一下。那第二個部分就針對法條上面實際的內容我想要問一下是說目前比如說我們在跟監嫌犯或是犯罪嫌疑人的時候"},{"start":19306.653,"end":19336.153,"text":"他們假設開了一台車子到公用的停車場不管是地上地下的停車場他們開了一台車子到公用的停車場在那個車子裡面車子裡面的行動我們現在在解釋上面他到底是不是一個具有隱私期待的空間這個是我的第二個問題因為這個會牽涉到我們到時候在法條適用的時候以及你所採取的科技偵查手段的時候"},{"start":19337.253,"end":19359.861,"text":"所會影響到的事情。」第三個問題是什麼?第三個問題是說,譬如說今天我們對於所謂非具有隱私空間的當你對於非具有隱私空間用科技手段進行長期大規模有系統的監控的時候"},{"start":19362.262,"end":19383.468,"text":"你沒有辦法只因為說他不是具有隱私期待的空間就會認為說這一件事情沒有什麼其他授權或者是規範的必要性這個是我比較擔心的事情我再說一次傳統上面認為非具有隱私期待的空間你如果對他進行"},{"start":19386.69,"end":19404.905,"text":"長時間有系統、大規模的監視。」那這種在傳統的偵查手段上面是很難想像因為你要耗費的偵查人力成本太高了但是如果你是用科技手段來予以處理的話那這種長時間有系統、大規模的監控"},{"start":19408.587,"end":19428.628,"text":"就變成不是沒有辦法想像的事情。」那在這樣子的情況下是不是你們還是認為用228跟230可以當成授權的基礎我還是有一點擔心那所以這件事情我是希望法務部再回去想一下"},{"start":19429.449,"end":19444.879,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":19453.001,"end":19480.263,"text":"和序號第三的徵定第153條之一就予以保留送協商。」好那我們現在審查第四編號四台灣民眾黨黨團提案徵定第153條之二那提案為台灣民眾黨黨團那請問就本條各位委員有沒有意見要補充好那沒有的話請問司法院或法務部有沒有意見要補充"},{"start":19481.92,"end":19499.754,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19517.756,"end":19519.75,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19532.698,"end":19552.015,"text":"主席,能不能請司法院,因為我看到司法院的意見那他這個本條的意見153之二就是指台灣民眾黨團版的部分他這裡強調空中調查僅是一種調查方法那這個部分可不可以你們可以再深論一下"},{"start":19553.888,"end":19577.46,"text":"因為你們是為無爭定的必要麻煩廳長或秘書長那我就舉謝謝委員指教那我就空中偵查部分我就舉無人機的這個作為例子那無人機的話基本上都是認為是個中性的載具當他用來他的如果使用的目的是在追蹤人的定位的時候那可能就回歸回歸到那個科證法的第二條的草案裡面的"},{"start":19578.301,"end":19584.503,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19586.494,"end":19612.649,"text":"對宅外或對宅內的一些相關的監錄的話那個回歸到課偵法草案的第四條相關的規定所以根據他的載具的方式跟他的偵查目的的不同他所侵犯的干預的基本權就會不一樣那各自回歸到課偵法第二條、第三條、第四條這邊的規定所以我是初步的說明是這樣子以上"},{"start":19616.245,"end":19640.05,"text":"請黃委員有沒有要補充這基本上是兩是根本上是三件不一樣的事情你說齁就回到有關於第三條的部分那第三條的部分他在用的是什麼行動通訊設備的位置設備的號碼那這個跟空中實施沒有關係嘛那你再回到剛剛你所講的"},{"start":19642.168,"end":19656.473,"text":"就前面就有關於衛星定位系統或其他非辨別個人生物特徵追蹤他的位置那你現在在講的是追蹤的問題嗎但問題是我老實講我這個東西放在空中"},{"start":19657.293,"end":19680.423,"text":"你要記得齁我長時間的把那個東西放在所謂你一般認為沒有具有隱私期待的地方所收集到的資訊你收集一天可能沒有什麼收集兩天沒有什麼當你收集到了14天甚至超過一個月有系統的在分辨"},{"start":19681.544,"end":19705.672,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":19706.476,"end":19721.385,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":19722.345,"end":19737.624,"text":"有必要進行任何的控管?」這個是在定這個條文的時候我們在思考的方向。因為按照你們現在的方式我擔心的事情是什麼?我擔心的事情是你們把刑訴228跟230"},{"start":19739.887,"end":19757.4,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":19758.16,"end":19772.051,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19782.071,"end":19801.35,"text":"司法警察在發動犯罪偵查的時候他具有指揮的權限其實只有這兩件事情沒有擴及於其他當然你們這樣子法條讓我做法條這樣子解釋就會讓大家開始擔心說如果這麼是概括的偵查手段全部在228跟230涵蓋的範圍當中的話"},{"start":19804.333,"end":19820.743,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19821.856,"end":19840.338,"text":"基本上黃委員剛剛所做的質疑是讓我們在在之前我們在演繹的時候也討論過當時是認為說是空中偵查的定義不夠明確那到底要怎麼去做定義基本上我不反對基本上不反對但是呢我們認為說可以用其他的條文來涵蓋的主要的理由"},{"start":19840.578,"end":19855.445,"text":"就好像說你會長時間的監看那才是對人的定位追蹤的相同的目的這時候就設置到24小時或者是累積兩天累積兩日的部分來做規範那是我們當時的初步的想法"},{"start":19856.065,"end":19875.539,"text":"但是因為我知道委員講的是對非隱私空間的部分單純的監看的時候因為我們涉及到說空拍機當時在空中監看的時候可能涉及到所謂的一般的財產損失的勘查或是水土保值的勘查或是其他其他非人的監視目的的勘查的時候"},{"start":19875.919,"end":19886.193,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19889.144,"end":19907.209,"text":"OK,那你還有補充嗎?沒有齁?好,那這樣齁,我想說大家意見都很充足了,那也都有那個激進意識路齁,那像我們是不是就民眾黨團所提案的徵定第153條之二本條我們就保留送協商。"},{"start":19908.349,"end":19934.203,"text":"條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十"},{"start":19937.158,"end":19961.758,"text":"沒有的話本條文我們就保留送協商現在進行排序第六徵定第153條之四提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員吳宗憲等20人提案委員鍾嘉斌等18人提案徵定第153條之三請問各位委員有沒有意見要補充"},{"start":19963.136,"end":19965.53,"text":"那沒有的話請問法務部及司法院有意見補充"},{"start":19966.826,"end":19992.584,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19995.442,"end":20015.599,"text":"請問法務部司法院有無意見補充沒有本條保留送協商現在進行排序第八增訂第153條之六提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案請問各位委員有無意見補充"},{"start":20017.418,"end":20019.779,"text":"五條之五條之五條之五。請問各位委員有無意見補充?"},{"start":20045.746,"end":20072.198,"text":"十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":20075.66,"end":20099.871,"text":"條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十"},{"start":20101.991,"end":20104.174,"text":"三條之十提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案,請問各位委員有無意見補充?"},{"start":20122.037,"end":20146.689,"text":"請問法務部或司法院有無意見補充沒有好謝謝那本條保留送協商好那現在進行審查排序第十三徵定第153條之十提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員吳宗憲等二十人提案徵定第153條之九委員鍾嘉斌等十八人提案徵定第153條之八請問各位委員有無意見補充"},{"start":20149.73,"end":20172.22,"text":"法務部司法院有無意見補充?沒有。謝謝。本條保留送協商。現在審查排序第十四徵定一五三條之十二。提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員吳宗憲等二十人提案徵定第一五三條之十委員鍾嘉斌等十八人提案徵定第一五三條之九請問各位委員有無意見補充?"},{"start":20174.958,"end":20201.645,"text":"條,法務部司法院有無意見補充?沒有謝謝本條保留送協商現在審查排序第十五徵定第一五三條之十提案人鍾嘉斌委員等十八人提案請問各位委員有無意見補充?沒有請問法務部司法院有無意見補充?沒有本條保留送協商"},{"start":20203.625,"end":20214.788,"text":"十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":20230.669,"end":20252.022,"text":"司法院、行政院提案假案司法院版司法院、行政院提案已案行政院版台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員羅智強等27人提案委員沈伯陽等18人提案請問各位委員就本條文有無意見要補充好是請說"},{"start":20254.517,"end":20265.253,"text":"好謝謝主席那我針對那個第245條的部分那個沈柏洋委員提案的部分那他是以其他這個電子設備輔助記錄的部分來做"},{"start":20271.186,"end":20288.541,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":20289.702,"end":20317.407,"text":"也比較能夠因應我們科技發展的這個工作的習慣那對於電子設備記錄的範圍、形式及這個排除等限縮的這個調整能夠有妥善的規範是不是就能夠通用若能夠把這一條這個補充進去我相信對未來我們這個辯護人來說會帶來一個很大的方便這早上在這個巡討的時候也跟我們秘書長還有那個"},{"start":20318.507,"end":20329.837,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":20331.511,"end":20352.448,"text":"我先直接請教一下那個司法院跟法務部因為這個事情要講清楚我先不處理從公開法庭開始講我們在目前公開法庭的情況之下當事人或者是辯護人在公開法庭的情況之下可不可以錄音錄影"},{"start":20354.414,"end":20365.628,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五"},{"start":20366.708,"end":20392.492,"text":"審判長在特殊情況之下同意才可以對嘛因為我們到時候在有關於訴訟程序的進行我們是採取法定證據主義嘛是不是有遵守訴訟程序的規定那在這樣的情況之下我們一般在釐清比如說在看驗當初筆錄上面的記載是不是正確的時候我們都是調什麼法庭的光碟"},{"start":20394.393,"end":20421.298,"text":"對戶人也可以申請法庭的光碟來看嘛如果在公開審判的時候我們是不可以錄影錄影的在偵查階段的時候可不可以錄影錄影這個要說清楚喔這個一定要說清楚第二個憲法法庭在那個具體的案例當中就有關於那個律師筆記的權利在那個憲法法庭"},{"start":20423.021,"end":20437.34,"text":"整個案子是那個時候那個律師他事實上就在做筆記嘛他後來檢察官就不准嘛不准了以後那個檢察官做了什麼事情他是把他筆記給扣了下來"},{"start":20439.681,"end":20461.432,"text":"現在在行政院的版本當中就如果發現了一模一樣的情況我們本文是允許做筆記這個沒有問題那如果出現了但書的情況我已經依照但書的規定清楚的跟你講你不能夠做筆記了但是他還是在偷偷做筆記"},{"start":20463.058,"end":20484.158,"text":"就像憲法法庭他們所遇到那個實際的案例一樣那這個時候要怎麼處理按照你們喔你們現在所提出來的條文這個時候現場的檢察官他可以做什麼事情也就是在半數的情況之下原則我們現在開放做筆記嘛"},{"start":20485.393,"end":20510.567,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、"},{"start":20512.268,"end":20527.049,"text":"可以扣住那個筆記本嗎?還是那個檢察官只能跟他講說現在是但書的情況你不要再做了但是已經做好的筆記可以讓他吸出偵查庭之外嗎?"},{"start":20529.346,"end":20553.118,"text":"這個事情在現在的法律制度下面到底要怎麼處理?你們現在所提出來的條文到底要怎麼處理這一件事情?等一下可能一併請司法院跟法務部說明。司法院或法務部你們有沒有要補充?委員的意見有沒有要補充?"},{"start":20555.543,"end":20576.822,"text":"還是我們先請省委員發言完畢然後再麻煩行政那個司法機關跟行政機關補充好那個省委員好這個我看這我們因為這一次有這個行政院的假案跟這個司法院司法院的假案跟行政院的議案所以事實上是有兩個版本"},{"start":20578.035,"end":20597.321,"text":"我看司法院的意見是表示說在就這一條你們同意行政院的版本應該記名於筆錄這些相關的規定你們都同意剛才在討論電子設備的輔助因為今天早上大家的詢答過程中也蠻多委員在關心這個事情"},{"start":20599.322,"end":20623.957,"text":"我看目前的這個不管是法務部或司法院的態度大概就是清楚就是所謂電子輔助設備就筆記的電子輔助設備使用電子輔助設備都這個排除掉錄音錄影因為錄音錄影都不算是所謂筆記的一部分它是另外超越筆記的其他方式"},{"start":20625.747,"end":20647.624,"text":"但是除了錄音錄影以外的文字上面的這個電子輔助使用這個可能會這個就在現在這樣子的條文裡面他就會有爭議了會有爭議我目前是是用這個法務部是用這個偵查庭管理要點用一個很低階的偵查庭管理要點在管理在這個"},{"start":20648.985,"end":20657.815,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":20658.459,"end":20683.904,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":20685.483,"end":20692.207,"text":"謝謝沈委員那是否請司法院先回應剛剛柯委員的問題謝謝委員的指教有關於剛剛委員所提到的制止之後限制之後繼續維筆記的行為這個部分當時我們在當時是沒有考慮到可能是要進一步的禁止他自己說他已經寫的東西能不能去查扣的問題"},{"start":20714.138,"end":20727.85,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":20729.772,"end":20750.597,"text":"你再回去看一下那個憲法法庭的那個判決因為他基本上是從一個個案衍生出來的嘛才一路打到憲法法庭去嘛那在筆記權這個大家都承認沒什麼好說的現在我要講的具體的事情是因為在那個案子裡面他會發生一個狀況就是檢察官"},{"start":20751.943,"end":20775.886,"text":"我已經跟你講你不能寫了嘛那我們現在是開放可以寫但是還是有但書的規定嘛如果依照但書的規定已經禁止你做筆記了結果他還是偷偷的記嘛那偷偷的記這個時候檢察官發現了檢察官可以做什麼事情以及那個檢察官他做這個事情目前在你們的版本裡面法律授權的基礎是什麼這個是我兩個問題"},{"start":20779.601,"end":20779.921,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":20797.692,"end":20821.059,"text":"三）刑事訴訟法兩條規範的扣押規定,它是得為證物之物,假官也可以扣押。前提要符合訴訟法得扣押之物。但是這涉及到比較敏感的,這涉及到律師的筆記。這又牽扯到另外一個我們宣判制,就是說被告跟律師之間的秘密特權的問題。所以現在司法院我們也在研擬這一段如何的符合我們宣判制秘密特權不可以扣押的規範。"},{"start":20822.813,"end":20831.538,"text":"我本部的立場是不宜在這邊馬上就做這個扣押做馬上處理會連動到我們另外一個憲判制命令特檢扣押的相關的規定黃委員"},{"start":20836.55,"end":20858.297,"text":"你講的第二個事情這個我知道這個會牽涉到的說律師跟客戶就是 attorney-client privilege 的問題看就變成了是你把他扣押下來是一個手段那檢察官可不可以去窒息他的內容這個是完全另外一回事喔"},{"start":20859.448,"end":20884.39,"text":"你懂我的意義是什麼?扣押他是一個物理性強制的手段因為我依照辦書的規定我已經跟你講你不能這樣做囉結果你還是偷偷的在給我搞這個事情那這個時候當檢察官發現的時候他可以怎麼辦?當檢察官發現的時候要符合你剛剛所講的兩個憲法上面的原則第一個你物理上面可以扣但第二個內容上面"},{"start":20885.411,"end":20900.526,"text":"內容上面你不可以拿來當作你不可以拿來當作你在偵辦這個犯罪基本上面的事真資料好我理解你們對這個事情要怎麼細緻的處理還在思考但我現在的問題是"},{"start":20902.268,"end":20919.476,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":20920.836,"end":20944.302,"text":"開偵查庭的檢察官就是說我們作為主管機關的或者是作為立法機關要給檢察官非常重要的行為規範的指導原則也就是讓檢察官知道這個時候他可以做什麼事怎麼做才會合乎法律上面正當法律程序跟偵查當中重要例外不能做筆記的事項資訊不能夠外洩兩者之間的橫撇"},{"start":20948.348,"end":20967.546,"text":"那我現在在擔心的事情是說按照你們現在的說法按照你們現在的說法那在這種情況下你們到底就是行為規範的內容是什麼就這個時候檢察官該怎麼做那以及你所希望發揮這個行為規範效果的法律基礎在哪裡"},{"start":20969.349,"end":20997.311,"text":"各位報告我剛才已經跟委員報告這種狀況之下檢察官如果認為那個筆記本身是一個可以當為證物的話他其實訴訟法上他就可以扣押訴訟法上有另外一個比較不是這麼強烈的方式他也可以命所有人命交付或命提出這個訴訟法上他都可以這麼做啦前提要符合我們訴訟法上他得扣押之務的前提若這個案符合這個要件之下檢察官他就有法源基礎可以做若沒有的話他就沒有辦法去扣押這個筆記那個筆記"},{"start":21002.028,"end":21017.161,"text":"不是啊 那我的問題還是一樣嘛你剛剛又回到抽象解釋論嘛我們就具體來講齁在具體的個案當中檢察官依照第二項的但書說欸你現在齁繼續再記下去的話會妨礙國家機密齁"},{"start":21020.643,"end":21038.545,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21039.686,"end":21050.594,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21051.181,"end":21074.782,"text":"我只是先記在筆記本啊我可能只是想要帶回家看一看啊但我們就認為不宜嘛上面有國家機密嘛上面寫的東西你寫的那麼機遇性迷移如果有重要的共犯現在還在逃的話那怕律師帶出去把這個資訊不曉得搞什麼東西這個在實務上我相信次長你很清楚啦你們檢察官一天到晚在面對這樣子的狀態"},{"start":21076.644,"end":21103.567,"text":"那當發現這件事情的時候你現在抽象的講說那如果是刑事訴訟上面等為證據之物本來就可以扣押但問題是是什麼東西的證物是哪一個犯罪的證物你所擔心的犯罪要事先預防的犯罪根本就還沒有發生啊我只是把它記下來我也還沒有洩漏交付國家機密我也還沒有進去開始著手去進行有關與共犯或者是證人勾串的問題"},{"start":21104.668,"end":21116.222,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21120.938,"end":21137.984,"text":"法務部還有什麼要補充?當然委員剛才指正是沒有錯。前提是他是符合得為證據之物。他跟本案的那個本案他筆記跟那個原來偵辦中本案是不是得為那個本案的證據之物。那如果不符合的話現行法上當然就沒有扣押的法源依據。"},{"start":21139.951,"end":21168.545,"text":"所以你就要讓他上面寄滿了國家機密的筆記就要讓他帶走那你前面那個禁止你不就被空洞化了嗎那你就要百分之百確認喔我一禁止了以後他絕對記不下來啊如果萬一被他記一下來你告訴檢察官說我們只能目送他離開因為我們現在沒有任何強制的手段我只能目送他離開帶著那個寄滿國家機密的筆記本離開偵查庭這樣真的好嗎"},{"start":21171.459,"end":21181.068,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21181.704,"end":21210.216,"text":"如果說法沒有法源去扣押的話這個個案剛剛委員提到個案的確就是這樣子後來被監察院有提出一些糾正一些說法的確是有這個所以我現在就在擔心第一個我們在規範上面我們先來討論應然的層面應不應該怎麼做在我剛說我描述的狀況我相信不管是法務部還是司法院應該都同意這個時候我們絕對不能讓檢察官目送著看那個律師怠慢"},{"start":21210.876,"end":21216.761,"text":"代責本來應該禁止筆記的事項,不管是充滿機密還是可能會跟人家勾算的資訊離開這個偵查庭嗎?"},{"start":21219.192,"end":21243.097,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21244.218,"end":21249.848,"text":"但又沒有法律授權的依據。目前所提出來的修正草案應該要怎麼強化?"},{"start":21254.099,"end":21283.576,"text":"那還是請廳長先表示一下意見謝謝委員羅智強這部分我們事實上我們在也review過我們的刑事訴訟的確在這部分恐怕有授權不足的問題那也許再利用這個機會讓他有個明確的授權讓檢察官在偵查中好做事那可以直接針對假設涉及到秘密特權的部分進行作為扣押保留下來就好但是不要涉及到裡面的內容的存否"},{"start":21284.016,"end":21304.255,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五"},{"start":21311.823,"end":21330.523,"text":"如果扣押物的話那就回到那個扣押要發還的兩百四十二條那個部分的審議規劃。那是申請嗎?回家就申請明天還我?那當時就可以決定要不要還啦。如果在發現裡面的內容可能涉及到國家機密或是妨礙他的名譽或是其他有勾串的情形之下就是剛剛委員所講的但書的情形之下都就不發還啦。"},{"start":21335.141,"end":21338.203,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":21348.96,"end":21369.799,"text":"假設他申請發還的時候,那你就勢必要去檢視裡面的東西,看他是不是符合所謂的但書禁止的相關規定。如果是屬於但書禁止的規定的時候,當然就不要發還給他。不可能就像剛剛盧委員所講的,看目送他帶著相關的機密資料帶走,那個可能不是我們限制跟禁止的主要的目的。"},{"start":21373.396,"end":21384.741,"text":"三、四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一"},{"start":21385.734,"end":21407.926,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":21409.258,"end":21413.16,"text":"四十五條之一、提案人司法院、行政院提案、假案司法院辦"},{"start":21428.948,"end":21440.85,"text":"司法院、行政院提案、議案、行政院版以及委員沈柏楊等18人提案。請問就本條部分各位委員有沒有要補充說明?好,沈委員。"},{"start":21442.643,"end":21460.558,"text":"就跟我早上講過的一樣所以就這兩點來就教第一個就是在這一個證據能力的部分因為這個司法院這邊並沒有特別提到但是我記得是在法務部這邊他是希望說證據能力回歸一五八之四所以這邊想問一下因為司法院沒有特別講這一點所以想知道這邊的看法這是第一個"},{"start":21461.158,"end":21470.201,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":21492.867,"end":21512.884,"text":"回應剛剛委員的意見本部還是認為這部分不必要把它硬性規定為絕對證據排除的規範事實上我們用我們現在刑事訴訟的158之四去權衡現在大部分有關違反刑事訴訟法的規定它都用權衡法則去權衡它的證據能力用絕對排除的在訴訟法反而是少"},{"start":21514.024,"end":21539.14,"text":"這第一點回應這一個委員的說明第二部分就是說法官保留的部分我們還是覺得沒有必要就是說這部分如果說在偵查中發現這些事情都要等到法官去保留我們偵查整個會遲滯整個會延遲甚至政治搞不好都滅失了那整個就會陷入一個僵局就是說那個偵查中斷了會中斷你必須要法官去做決定嘛所以這部分我們還是覺得這部分就不需要法官保留以上是"},{"start":21540.36,"end":21565.122,"text":"我這邊先追問一個就是說因為好像是昨天是警政署也有提到就是說他們會有一些怕說有律師濫用的情形那可不可以這一點也稍微說明一下我覺得有個記錄比較好或者說還是請警政署說明可以啊那個警政署的代表要不要說明一下省委員的問題各位委員警政署刑事局報告就是有關於省委員提案"},{"start":21571.254,"end":21576.106,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":21578.647,"end":21601.174,"text":"條文修正草案案的第三項部分就是有關於採取法官保留的部分因為目前就實務上我們已經有實例就是說部分的律師他可能跟這些犯罪集團有所勾結可能協助做因為勾串證據的問題那如果採取法官保留的部分他可以採取技術性的干擾徵訊行動一個進行因為檢舉只能共用24小時"},{"start":21604.275,"end":21613.359,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第三百五"},{"start":21615.363,"end":21631.661,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九"},{"start":21637.415,"end":21659.316,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21661.391,"end":21668.501,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":21669.167,"end":21669.567,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人"},{"start":21692.385,"end":21713.673,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21720.121,"end":21749.415,"text":"我早上在打訊息的時候有回應就是說有關的電子輔助的部分如果電子輔助設備它具有錄音錄影或傳送功能的話在法務部立場是絕對禁止這種電子設備但是電子設備它如果沒有我剛剛講錄音錄影傳送只是單純筆記的功能這部分我們在個案上我覺得不需要明定個案因為我們宣判只承認辯護人的筆記權那筆記權內容是什麼個案上有檢查關係認定就好了不用再落在這個文字上面"},{"start":21754.511,"end":21777.248,"text":"三委員主席我建議這一條我看司法院版跟行政院版文字是一模一樣那大概只有三委員的版本有一些不一樣那我是建議說是不是這一條如果大家沒有太大的爭議我們就按照行政院版或司法院版來通過按照行政院版來通過"},{"start":21783.135,"end":21805.371,"text":"委員的意思是說希望245條之一以行政院版通過嗎?那請問一下在場的黃國昌委員就這部分跟黃國昌委員有沒有其他?條文其實都有連動,前面都保留了,過了這個條文到底有什麼意義啊?"},{"start":21809.688,"end":21837.762,"text":"三）委員因為這些條文之間都有聯動是不是說因為前面大家我們之前就是三黨大家都有個共識我們有特別的意見我只是提這樣的建議看看大家怎麼樣如果大家覺得說還是要保留那就保留我們有特別的意見不好意思委員比較不好意思因為我覺得各個條文之間可能有一些聯動的關係那是不是說我們就依照之前大家講好的就我們就保留送協商好那周委員"},{"start":21838.939,"end":21841.76,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案的部分保留送協商。我們現在審查排序第19、第416條提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案。請問各位委員就本條有無意見補充。"},{"start":21866.459,"end":21874.124,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21875.318,"end":21904.082,"text":"其實就是跟前面條文彼此相配合的問題因為它實際上面的狀況是說有一些東西你要把它全部擠在一個條文當中全部擠在那邊那邊有規定後面就不要動了還是說你在整個體力上前面既然有動後面配合著動這只是一個修法體力上面的問題所以前面既然保留了我覺得這一條就一併把它保留因為可能他們的想法是說我前面就有規定了"},{"start":21904.622,"end":21918.329,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21919.744,"end":21923.625,"text":"四十五條之一後面以及我們所提的四百一十六條這個都保留我們意見。但我今天要拜託法務部"},{"start":21942.958,"end":21957.201,"text":"和刑事警察局。我要拜託,我要特別拜託你們回去做一個功課,因為我很怕到協商的時候再提出來,資料會不夠。要請你們做什麼功課,因為那一天"},{"start":21959.164,"end":21987.174,"text":"刑事警察局的同仁來我辦公室拜訪我主要是針對有關於通訊保障監察法第十一條之一到底是不是要採取檢察官保留還是司法警察就是我們一般的警察同仁就可以去調這件事情他們有來做說明你們說明的理由我基本上理解你們在辦案上面實際的需求但"},{"start":21988.234,"end":22008.256,"text":"在他們說明的過程當中突顯出來了我們現行通訊保障監察法第十一條之一立法體力上面的荒謬為什麼說現行的通保法十一條之一在立法體力上面的荒謬第一項"},{"start":22010.23,"end":22026.536,"text":"檢察官如果要不是通訊記錄喔通訊記錄當然要跟法院要調取票要使用者資訊要跟法院要調取票才可以拿到使用者資訊喔我再強調我講的是使用者資訊"},{"start":22027.856,"end":22036.721,"text":"刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":22053.854,"end":22078.072,"text":"他並不在什麼第二項要調取票的範圍那導致的是警察如果要使用者資訊不用法官保留直接去函跟電信公司要就有了那涉行通保法十一條之一他所呈現運作荒謬的狀況是什麼檢察官要使用者資訊然後要去跟法官要調取票"},{"start":22079.167,"end":22106.785,"text":"警察要通訊者資訊不用向法官申請調取票甚至也不用檢察官直接去電信公司要就好了怎麼會有這種立法體力的規範因為你們的解釋我知道啦你們的解釋就是說當初在訂11條之一的時候出現的立法上面的疏漏嘛掛一漏萬嘛"},{"start":22108.351,"end":22124.958,"text":"前面在檢察官的部分可能多了所謂的使用者資料後面在司法警察的部分就沒有但你們在實際目前運作這樣的法條解釋的結果我老實說我從法律的觀點來看"},{"start":22126.559,"end":22141.317,"text":"我真的不是很認同我為什麼說不是不是很認同連檢察官要都要跟法官申請了警察要可以不用跟法官申請直接去函電信公司怎麼解釋上會這樣子"},{"start":22144.04,"end":22167.9,"text":"這根本不合法律解釋的邏輯啊如果檢察官要都要法律保留了你舉重以民輕警察要當然更要法官保留啊我對這個條文的解釋是這個樣但你們昨天我也很感謝刑事警察局昨天來說明的時候很坦率的把你們現在實務上面到底是怎麼運作很清楚的表白"},{"start":22169.176,"end":22193.751,"text":"就是反正現在就是警察要直接跟電信業者調就好了然後辦案上面我們也有這樣子實際上面的需求所以大家都這樣幹但昨天就刑事警察局來說明的時候也提供另外一個重要的資訊就是有一些地方譬如說像台南地檢署他們在解釋這個法條的時候他們解釋的方法跟我"},{"start":22194.531,"end":22216.211,"text":"就是採取一致的立場,連檢察官都要調取票了。警察怎麼可能不跟法官,要透過檢察官向法官申請調取票,警察直接可以跟電信公司要,那不就掏空了第一項的規範。那哪,哪裡有檢察官會傻傻的去向法官申請調取票。那檢察官就卡一下就有金錢。說我這個齁,"},{"start":22219.127,"end":22221.088,"text":"三十條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":22243.081,"end":22243.522,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具"},{"start":22262.335,"end":22291.675,"text":"我這樣說其實不是在責怪刑事警察局我很感謝你們很坦率的把你們實際上面業務的需求辦案的需要跟運作的狀況跟大家做解釋但我希望你們可以準備好我們到黨團協商要針對這個條文做出決斷的時候現在的實務上到底有哪些是警察直接調就好有哪些地方是像你們所講的台南那邊的檢察官"},{"start":22292.715,"end":22320.473,"text":"還是要向法院申請調取票才可以做實際上面各個地方的地檢署運作的狀況是什麼第二個你們要的那個數量大概是多少可以讓我們知道因為這個東西我們一旦放了就放了所謂放了就放了就是說這次修法我們來去補足上一次修法的時候所出現明顯的錯誤或者是荒謬"},{"start":22321.374,"end":22348.132,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一"},{"start":22351.374,"end":22360.924,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":22363.873,"end":22381.266,"text":"謝謝黃委員因為這個我很有感非常有感以前我們也是要拜託警察然後警察調調通聯要錢就拜託檢方調然後檢方要這個資料就拜託警察調我都有很有同感這可能再麻煩法務部這邊能夠把這一塊我們再把它補起來因為現行這一塊確實有點荒謬"},{"start":22387.714,"end":22414.253,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":22419.458,"end":22438.073,"text":"條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字授權主席及議事人員整理。」好那我們本次討論事項都已經處理完畢本次會議就到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}