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做解釋我尊重審判獨立啦是但是你如果尊重審判獨立尊重到ABC三個版本要怎麼回答都要由何一庭來回答"},{"start":506.963,"end":528.583,"text":"在司法的公眾監督上面沒有辦法處理這件事情那等於是法官針對自己的裁定可以做很多版本司法院的態度很清楚因為他們這樣子做就已經是違背了這些程式規定也因此有這個圍屍呢那個高院的資歷委員會就是送法屏的圍屍室又有包括這一塊"},{"start":530.923,"end":543.422,"text":"這法官百分之百應該要送懲戒這個我跟你沒有意見不一樣的地方現在我在請教的是在法律上面現在這個裁定到底是A版本 B版本還是C版本"},{"start":545.455,"end":573.94,"text":"因為他會牽涉到一個更大的問題是我昨天啊請教一下法務部部長的上面的記載後來被抽換那我相信我們都是法律人不要爭執這件事情啦這種事情用抽換的方式是不對的嘛我的理解沒有錯吧電話紀錄嗎還是手提單電話紀錄是對這也是違反刑事說法40條來那個部長我昨天請教完了你以後你有沒有回去瞭解那個檢察官到底有沒有表達這個看法"},{"start":575.825,"end":595.664,"text":"這部分是如同那個整個電話紀錄裡面我們還在調查中你們還在調查嗎因為這個還在那個調卷嘛希望動作可以快一點希望可以動作快一點因為這個司法大醜聞整個社會都非常非常的關心那最後我先請教一下司法院副秘書長說"},{"start":597.796,"end":607.126,"text":"因為那一位審判長他已經不事任兼任庭長了嘛你們說你們要開人審會把他庭長拔掉嘛庭長拔掉沒有"},{"start":607.985,"end":630.11,"text":"報告委員因為這位庭長他後來在4月1號的時候他就寫了簽呈自行免監那這個也已經核定下來了所以連人審會都不用開了嗎是 預計4月14號派令會生效接下來整個懲處的程序可能對於法官評鑑委員會"},{"start":631.926,"end":660.677,"text":"的公信力 社會公信力 可能會再遭受一次社會全面的檢視 這個司法院應該心裡有數嗎是的 也跟委員報告在昨天的時候呢 就是這一個申請書也送到法評會了OK 好 來 接下來請部長那個部長我知道你等一下要走齁 我們講快一點之前啊 我揭露有檢察官跑去跟無奶人吃香喝辣"},{"start":661.687,"end":690.136,"text":"那後來呢地檢署就地檢署的部分有把這幾個檢察官送檢察官評鑑嘛那之前呢你們回給我的函說高檢署有要做行政調查報告這個行政調查報告完成了嗎各位委員報告齁這個高檢這個有發交給北檢來做行政調查那北檢的行政調查是認為這個有違反公務員所以在這邊齁來來來你看你公務員最下一行"},{"start":690.876,"end":708.44,"text":"高檢的行政調查持續進行中尚未結案所以你現在回給我的高檢的行政調查到底還有沒有在進行還是北檢移送評鑑以後就算結案了因為這個已經移送那個個案評鑑那這部分高檢贊同這種的看法所以這邊已經結案了蛤"},{"start":710.368,"end":725.616,"text":"這個部分就算結案了這個一定會送個案評鑑因為所有參與參會的這些五位檢察官都送個案評鑑現在喔我公開質疑過一個問題我到目前為止沒有聽到法務部的回應所以我想今天公開請教你的回應"},{"start":726.792,"end":753.65,"text":"把這五個檢察官送評鑑我非常贊成我非常贊成敗壞檢察官的官真敗壞檢察官的官真傷害司法的公信力但我的問題啊 是什麼這個標準有適用所有的檢調嗎為什麼我這樣問當初北檢的檢察長在當調查局局長的時候跑去台碩的招待所"},{"start":755.114,"end":778.753,"text":"跑去台塑的招待所那個時候正在接受調查的是誰是鄭文燦還有送他錢的楊兆琳還有送他錢的楊兆琳這個是等於什麼調查局帶了一堆官員去台塑的招待所招待一個貪污犯送錢的人他們的招待"},{"start":781.463,"end":790.754,"text":"為什麼調查局的局長現在北檢的檢察長可以幹這種事情然後都不需要接受任何的行政調查或懲處是有雙標嗎"},{"start":793.171,"end":817.054,"text":"是有雙標嗎這個沒有雙標如果沒有雙標的話 那請問針對這位前調查局局長現在台北地檢署的檢察長法務部做了什麼處理因為我看不到我公開發文質疑了非常久啊是跟全國的檢察官說即使那個貪汙犯那個送錢的正在被調查"},{"start":818.959,"end":841.429,"text":"只要財大氣粗一樣可以去他的招待所吃喝玩樂是這樣嗎請部長這部分如果有具體事證那我們是絕對聽聽聽這上面寫的還不夠清楚這上面寫的還不夠清楚王俊麗也沒有否認他有去啊他從頭到尾沒有否認他有去啊"},{"start":847.264,"end":867.66,"text":"他說他去是公務啊我看不懂這是什麼公務啊一個正在被你調查貪污犯送錢給鄭文燦的在招待所裡面招待你結果他跟社會說是公務然後整個法務部從上到下靜悄悄都不用調查不用處理來請部長"},{"start":871.616,"end":899.73,"text":"我們再重申就是我們會秉公處理絕對不會互端好 你說要秉公處理我非常讚賞可不可以講具體一點如何秉公處理那這個還是經過要了解這個還要了解 你要了解多久給你一個禮拜了解夠不夠這件事情發生很久了啦我也公開質疑很久了啦只不過我人為言輕狗吠火車啊我公開質疑了以後到今天從法務部到高檢署到台北地檢署沒有一個人回應啊"},{"start":901.291,"end":913.96,"text":"大家都在裝沒事啦反正用混的混過去就好啦然後您今天說要秉公處理不要講空話如何秉公處理主席站起來了給我一個答案就好你需要多久你說你還要調查嗎沒關係我給你時間調查一個禮拜夠不夠"},{"start":919.946,"end":932.625,"text":"我們半個月兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好兩個禮拜我們來瞭解看看兩個禮拜這件事情該什麼處理請法務部正式的回函給所有世華法治委員會的委員好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":291,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時9分）謝謝主席，麻煩請司法院王副秘書長、法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘及部長。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。上一次針對有關鍾文智棄保潛逃的案子，副秘書長應該還記得很清楚，那天我請教您為什麼高院的裁定對於保證金取代科技監控設備完全找不到？結果搞了半天，連裁定都沒有做，完全沒有做，等到事情大條了，才開始匆匆補做。先分兩個層次的問題，第一個層次的問題，剛副秘講的沒有錯，裁定要不然要宣示，要不然要送達，才會對外發生效力。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，現在下一個問題來了，因為這裁定一直到今年我們質詢完了以後，發現當初根本沒有做，才在今年3月28日補做。下面的問題是，去年10月16日的時候，是不是叫鍾文智或者是通知他的辯護人多拿2,000萬來辦交保？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有錯嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：請他繳2,000萬的法律基礎是什麼？去年10月16日的時候，在我們的法律世界當中沒有任何一個裁判可以命他多繳2,000萬，我說的沒有錯吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，你垂詢的是，也正是因為合議庭的這個違失，就是沒有送達，然後也沒有在當庭言詞做宣示，所以他們所做的就是違反程序的規定，也因此司法院的態度很清楚，我們後來查悉這些事情之後……"],["黃委員國昌：司法院的態度我等一下會問，我們是法律人，因為我如果在問A問題，然後你在回答B答案，這樣大家會聽不懂，這樣也會對不起來。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我的問題很具體，去年10月16日叫他拿2,000萬來的法律基礎是什麼？我從法律的觀點看是沒有法律基礎，我這樣的理解有沒有錯誤？"],["王副秘書長梅英：可以這樣說，因為那個裁定根本沒有對外生效。"],["黃委員國昌：現在問題來了，現在這2,000萬如果人家要你還他，那你怎麼辦？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，因為這個部分之後的這一些程序處理，還是涉及到審判核心，這個部分我們司法行政也不便就合議庭職權的行使來做一個回答。"],["黃委員國昌：現在合議庭出了這個大包，他們要負責，這個我同意，我其實也沒有在怪你，因為那個裁定不是你做的，人也不是你放的，要你在這邊幫他挨罵、幫他背鍋，對你也不公平，但是我覺得在法律上面，我們在討論法律制度的問題就要把法律制度的問題講清楚。所以我現在擔心的第一個事情是去年繳的那2,000萬沒有法律授權的基礎，你憑什麼給人家留著？今天如果鍾文智囂張一點，要他的辯護人叫你們2,000萬還來，當初你要他繳的那2,000萬根本沒有法律的基礎，這個時候怎麼辦？這個時候我國的司法制度就尷尬了，真的就尷尬了！","第二個部分，今天司法院的報告也不瞭解所謂略式裁定，因為今天你的報告，我覺得法律人有一說一，對於這樣的精神，我基本上是認同的。"],["王副秘書長梅英：感謝。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院在書面報告上跟全國的法律人講，我們司法院也搞不清楚什麼叫略式裁定，顯然是這個法官知道出了包了以後想要亡羊補牢，去發明了這個詞出來，但是我對於你們講的一個詞是有意見的，什麼意見？來！看一下，裁定雖然沒有判決書格式那麼嚴謹的要求，但是刑事訴訟法第五十條及第五十一條，針對裁判書所應記載的內容基本上是有規定的，所以即使是裁定，刑事訴訟法第五十一條針對裁判書所應記載的內容也有要求，我這樣說應該沒有錯嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，因為你們公告的裁定和原始的裁定是不是一樣，我們無從得知，因為依照刑事訴訟法的規定，有一些針對有關於受裁定人要被特定的那些資料是應記載的事項，沒有錯嘛？你聽不懂嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，我聽得懂。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說應該沒有錯嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：但是你們現在所公告的略式裁定，對於實際上面那個裁定的原本和正本是不是相符的這件事情，司法院確認過了嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：因為那個書記官是寫上面正本的制作和原本相符，按照目前司法院或高院所採取的立場是案件審理單可能也是書面裁定的一種，我特別加「可能」兩個字，還是你們現在就確定是裁定的一種？"],["王副秘書長梅英：就我們的調查，這個合議庭是在理由單裡面去批了這個裁定的意旨，合議庭在3月28日的時候是把這個審理單上裁定意旨的內容，也就是現在大家看到的……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在就問得很清楚了，如果這個審理單按照高院那個法官的主張，他認為是所謂的裁定的話，他現在顯然就這樣主張，他的主張只是這個裁定有沒有對外發生法律效果，所以是不是要補送達的問題，我現在的問題是那個案件審理單上面的資訊，跟現在公告裁定的資訊內容是不是一樣，這件事情確認過了嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，因為這個自律的內容也都已經揭露了，這個我們可以報告，這個審理單上最早原始的那個記載就是如現在所揭示的，但是自律委員會之所以成立、決議這個要送法評、有違失，其中的第二個理由是，他們後來在上面還有再增刪了一些東西。"],["黃委員國昌：這個就是我現在的核心問題，當初的案件審理單，我姑且把它稱為A版本，但是現在公告的裁定是B版本，我應該沒有說錯吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：現在公告的是第一個版本，是A版本，他後來還有第二跟第三。"],["黃委員國昌：他後面還有第二跟第三個版本？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個在新聞稿上已經有揭露了。"],["黃委員國昌：法官可以這樣做嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為依刑事訴訟法第四十條規定，公務員所制作的文書有增刪的時候，一定要去註記。"],["黃委員國昌：不是，依照他們現在的看法，那個裁定成立的時間點到底是什麼？那個裁定成立的時間點是A版本、B版本，還是C版本？如果按照你剛剛這樣的講法，有三個版本的裁定，現在公告的是第一個版本嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個版本和第三個版本從司法院的觀點算什麼？隨便亂寫的東西？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分要由合議庭來回答，司法院沒有辦法幫忙他們做解釋。"],["黃委員國昌：我尊重審判獨立，但是你如果尊重審判獨立尊重到A、B、C三個版本要怎麼回答，都要由合議庭來回答，在司法的公眾監督上面沒有辦法處理這件事情，等於是法官針對自己的裁定可以做很多版本嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，司法院的態度很清楚，因為他們這樣子做就已經是違背了這一些程式規定，也因此有這個違失，高院的自律委員會送法評的違失事由也有包括這一塊。"],["黃委員國昌：這個法官百分之百應該要送懲戒，我跟你沒有意見不一樣的地方，現在我在請教的是，在法律上面，現在這個裁定到底是A版本、B版本，還是C版本？因為它會牽涉到一個更大的問題是我昨天請教法務部部長的，上面的記載在後來被抽換，我相信我們都是法律人，不要爭執這件事情，這種事情用抽換的方式是不對的，我的理解沒有錯吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：電話紀錄嗎？還是審理單？"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["王副秘書長梅英：電話紀錄？"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["王副秘書長梅英：對，這也是違反刑事訴訟法第四十條。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我昨天請教完了之後，你有沒有回去瞭解，那個檢察官到底有沒有表達這個看法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如同整個電話紀錄裡面，我們還在調查中。"],["黃委員國昌：你們還在調查。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個還在調卷。"],["黃委員國昌：希望動作可以快一點，因為這個司法大醜聞，整個社會都非常非常關心。最後，我先請教司法院副秘書長，因為那位審判長已經不適任兼任庭長了，你們說要開人審會把他的庭長拔掉，庭長拔掉沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，因為這位庭長後來在4月1號就寫了簽呈自請免兼，這個也已經核定下來了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以連人審會都不用開了嘛。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，預計4月14號派令會生效。"],["黃委員國昌：接下來整個懲處的程序，可能法官評鑑委員會的公信力、社會公信力會再遭受一次社會全面的檢視，這個司法院應該心裡有數嘛。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是的，也跟委員報告，昨天這個申請書也送到法評會了。"],["黃委員國昌：OK。接下來請部長，部長，我知道你等一下要走，我們講快一點。之前我揭露有檢察官跑去跟吳乃仁吃香喝辣，後來地檢署就地檢署的部分有把這幾個檢察官送檢察官評鑑，之前你們回給我的函說高檢署要做行政調查報告，這個行政調查報告完成了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，高檢有發交給北檢來做行政調查，北檢的行政調查是認為這個有違反公務員……"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，你看公文最下一行，高檢的行政調查持續進行中，尚未結案。所以你現在回給我的高檢的行政調查到底還有沒有在進行？還是北檢移送評鑑以後就算結案了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個已經移送個案評鑑，這部分高檢也贊同這種看法，所以這邊已經結案了。"],["黃委員國昌：這個部分就算結案了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是送個案評鑑，所有參與餐會的這5位檢察官都送個案評鑑。"],["黃委員國昌：我公開質疑過一個問題，我到目前為止沒有聽到法務部的回應，所以我想今天公開請教你的回應，把這5個檢察官送評鑑，我非常贊成，因為敗壞檢察官官箴、傷害司法的公信力。但我的問題是什麼？這個標準有適用所有的檢調嗎？為什麼我這樣問？當初北檢的檢察長在當調查局局長的時候跑去台塑的招待所，那個時候正在接受調查的是誰？是鄭文燦，還有送他錢的楊兆麟，這個是等於什麼？調查局帶了一堆官員去台塑的招待所接受招待，一個貪污犯、送錢的人他們的招待，為什麼調查局局長（現任北檢檢察長）可以幹這種事情，然後都不需要接受任何的行政調查或懲處，是有雙標嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有雙標。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有雙標，請問，針對這位前調查局局長，現任臺北地檢署檢察長，法務部做了什麼處理？因為我看不到，我公開發文質疑了非常久，是跟全國的檢察官說，即使那個貪污犯、那個送錢的正在被調查，只要財大氣粗，一樣可以去他的招待所吃喝玩樂，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果有具體事證，我們是絕對……"],["黃委員國昌：停、停、停，這上面寫得還不夠清楚？王俊力也沒有否認他有去啊！他從頭到尾沒有否認他有去啊！他說他去是公務，我看不懂這是什麼公務啊！一個正在被你調查的貪污犯，送錢給鄭文燦的，在招待所裡面招待你，結果跟社會說是公務，然後整個法務部從上到下靜悄悄，都不用調查、不用處理！請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再重申，就是我們會秉公處理，絕對不會護短。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你說要秉公處理，我非常讚賞，可不可以講具體一點，如何秉公處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個還是要經過了解。"],["黃委員國昌：這個還要了解？你要了解多久？給你一個禮拜了解夠不夠？這件事情發生很久了，我也公開質疑很久了，只不過我人微言輕、狗吠火車，我公開質疑了以後到今天，從法務部到高檢署到臺北地檢署，沒有一個人回應，大家都在裝沒事，反正用混的，混過去就好啦！然後您今天說要秉公處理，不要講空話，如何秉公處理？主席站起來了，給我一個答案就好，你需要多久？你說你還要調查，沒關係，我給你時間調查，一個禮拜夠不夠？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們半個月、兩個禮拜……"],["黃委員國昌：兩個禮拜？好，兩個禮拜。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們來了解。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情該怎麼處理，兩個禮拜內請法務部正式回函給所有司法及法制委員會的委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我們下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。","由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢，但尚未確定，我們現在先確認議事錄。請問各位委員，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？（無）好，沒有的話，議事錄確定。請陳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","林倩綺","王義川","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","張啓楷","林月琴","莊瑞雄","羅智強","沈發惠"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1143702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會\n海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與\n科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143702_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}