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大家早安關心"},{"start":2072.745,"end":2093.563,"text":"台灣的各位好朋友大家好。警察、軍人、警消、在軍公告裡面、當機時、改革那一項。我們國的中武省大概是兩條。那麼到現在中武省最終只有兩條被侵入。"},{"start":2103.436,"end":2110.081,"text":"在改革的過程中說最好來打殺車的就是軍人因為他嫁娼、高風險所以把他威脅下來那麼這個警察警校站在第一線用死命保護台灣人的死命財產安全因由完畢勤的中間也是理事休息在台北"},{"start":2132.54,"end":2137.001,"text":"一）委員一份登記、握力及深烈努力的付出。但是,求國家用著無情的制度來幫助他們登記時,磨心烈血來保好國家的感情,情何以堪。每當高級警校、警察被我們打死、浪費"},{"start":2162.108,"end":2167.049,"text":"二）委員今天講這個,我可以跟你說抱歉嗎?不解決什麼問題?這種心態不是參與公眾事務,也不是一個政府應該有的態度。尤其,警察人員、鄉民和專屬部,清洗的時候,專屬部也沒有說反對。"},{"start":2192.568,"end":2195.671,"text":"他講到每一年可能會增加二十五億那麼在二十年到二十九年可能會增加四十五億在三十年之後每一年會增加六十億我剛才講過每一年我們的政府會增加八千億你不可以一年拿六十億來照顧這個一四人為台灣奉獻撇平的人"},{"start":2222.654,"end":2223.975,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．併案．事由．併案．事由．併案．"},{"start":2252.435,"end":2254.736,"text":"三草案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2280.052,"end":2285.201,"text":"我們現在先請下一位提案人丁學忠委員提案"},{"start":2296.024,"end":2321.26,"text":"主席各位委員大家好分析所提的警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案所提案說明有建立警察人員特殊的勤務與一般公務人員有很大不同實在不適應用同樣的退休金制度警察消防人員的工作具有高危險性與高壓力"},{"start":2322.301,"end":2349.464,"text":"根據一項統計數字,106年至111年間因公殉職人員就有47人,消防人員也在十年內殉職三十幾位同仁。另外,可以發現警消人員退休後,平均受孕比一般人平均更低。這些不幸的數字都代表他們應該獲得國家更好、更合理的退休照顧。"},{"start":2350.285,"end":2377.834,"text":"另外,總和這些原因,警察人員的工作性質明顯與國軍更為接近,所以提出退休金制度應比照國軍退休條例,故予文法修訂警察人員退休所得替代率。年資滿15年者所得替代率至45%期,每一年增加所得替代率增加2%,"},{"start":2379.875,"end":2390.709,"text":"最高因百分之九十五為上限以上報告謝謝好謝謝那下面我們請提案人游浩委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2408.447,"end":2417.856,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":2432.068,"end":2458.914,"text":"通常影響到他們的身心健康這些特性也使得他們工作危險性其實不亞於一般的公務人員甚至更高可能這些情況修正相關法令來提供適當的保障其實對於他們來講非常重要目前我國現行法令對於警察消防海巡移民等人員的退休所的替代率與國軍相比時還發現確實立即需要相對應的一個修正來提供更公平的一個保障"},{"start":2459.574,"end":2468.31,"text":"所以這些人員的貢獻跟承受的風險應該要得到公平以及應有的尊重跟回饋來保障他們退休後的一個生活保障。"},{"start":2469.83,"end":2496.486,"text":"所以對此還有這些特殊性質的公務人員我們應該重新評估其所得替代率還有確保他們在工作退休之後能夠得到合理的照顧及支持這些調整有助於提高公務人員的工作動力及生活品質同時也對他們的辛勞的工作是一種公平跟肯定跟尊重所以本席提出的警察人員人事條例第三十五條修正草案就是為了好好照顧辛苦奉獻無失的公務人員謝謝"},{"start":2499.541,"end":2502.783,"text":"主席各位委員先請大家找內政部奉邀列席貴委員會就委員擬具警察人員人事條例第35條修正草案"},{"start":2528.291,"end":2539.284,"text":"本12案報告並備詢,請提供本部意見如下,進行指教。首先,本部對於有關委員擬具本條例之修正案,"},{"start":2540.325,"end":2558.671,"text":"查退伏法第37條、38條以及附表三所明定的公務人員所得退休所得替代率。大院委員提案增訂內容與前開退伏法的規定有所判隔,而且涉及考試院的限定職長。"},{"start":2560.111,"end":2582.264,"text":"那麼按照選舉部109年8月17號含本條例另訂退伏事項的意見略以修訂本條例的經費籌措涉及該部以及行政院人事總署、主計總署、公務人員、退休輔具基金管理局以及各地方政府"},{"start":2584.261,"end":2604.857,"text":"消防海巡機關等權責,因此影響的層面相當廣泛,而且考慮整體退府給予平衡的情形,所以本案必須協調取得相關機關的共識,並依規定來呈報行政院,含請考試院同意會嫌之後,才能再送大院審議。"},{"start":2606.098,"end":2621.039,"text":"那麼又今檢視本大院委員擬具本條例修正草案內容目前還沒有並同112年7月1號起適用公務人員個人專戶制的這個退休之前撫恤辦法"},{"start":2621.98,"end":2641.694,"text":"那麼這些警察人員我們的同仁納入這個規範那公務員退休金的計算的內涵這個最後必須由全序部來審定這個所謂的本薪跟改採平均本奉的現況來納入同條第一條第一項第二款以及第二項聯資退休金的差額計算方式因此這個"},{"start":2643.695,"end":2653.883,"text":"最後依照本條例第三條的規定,就是本條例所稱的警察人員,那細指本條例任官受接執行警察任務之人員。」"},{"start":2668.259,"end":2681.751,"text":"因為移民、空勤跟航策等機關限職員並非本條例所稱的警察人員所以並不適用本條例相關規定那希望他這個退休事項不宜納入本條例規範那以上報告謝謝委員"},{"start":2686.486,"end":2696.232,"text":"我們先請王洪威委員做提案說明接下來我們下一位再請全序部張次長報告"},{"start":2703.971,"end":2732.637,"text":"好謝謝主席以及我們各位委員還有在場的各位官員那今天主要的討論的問題題目是非常非常重要的那大家都知道事實上呢在我們的整個的公務系統裡面包含我們的警消海巡人員其實他們過去因為因公殉子死亡及傷殘的人數事實上他在各類的公務人員裡面他比例的占比都是非常高的"},{"start":2733.177,"end":2735.058,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":2754.671,"end":2779.37,"text":"事實上還要把寶二變成所謂的第二陸軍把海巡要把它變成所謂的第二海軍所以也就是我們的警消以及我們的海巡人員他們在他們的工作以及執勤上的危險性已經絕對不下於我們的國軍弟兄"},{"start":2780.231,"end":2800.728,"text":"但是如果對於他們的退休制度卻出現了變成是一個次等公民對於我們警察消防海巡人員事實上是非常非常的不公平的那麼我們所以在希望在透過這一次的修法"},{"start":2801.288,"end":2802.489,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":2820.117,"end":2844.132,"text":"那當然我剛才也有聽到我們應該是內政部他所提到的也就是過去呢在警察的範圍裡面必不包含我們的像是海巡人員或者移民署但是我們在這邊要特別的提到比如說像我們的移民署的這個官員事實上他們過去就是從警察分出來的"},{"start":2845.552,"end":2866.318,"text":"你看現在很多的移民署退休的官員他們事實上過去也是警察只是因為我們的組織的編制的改變然後被分出來之後他又要從警察分出去所以我們現在變成一個國家不是一國兩制喔"},{"start":2866.838,"end":2870.519,"text":"條文修正三草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制及法律條例修正三草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法律條例修正三草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法律條例"},{"start":2887.345,"end":2897.288,"text":"還有包含這個我們的內政部的空中勤務總隊的這些的弟兄這些同仁也能夠納入一併的跟他們保障我真覺得就是我們國家社會對於執行這些同樣危險同樣重要的人物我們應該一視同仁而不應該把他們去一直區分最後會出現了"},{"start":2914.993,"end":2922.999,"text":"四等公民三等公民這不是我們一個國家社會應該給予這些弟兄的對待以上謝謝好謝謝那我們接下來請全區部張次長報告"},{"start":2940.427,"end":2962.193,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早首先向臨時委員會各位委員對本部業務推動上的支持跟策略在這裡表示我們最大的感謝我們非常的肯定警察同仁的貢獻跟辛勞但是本來因為涉及本部主管的工人的退服法制由於提案的內容會損及"},{"start":2963.533,"end":2988.572,"text":"特輔制度設計的基礎原理跟長久的運作精神所以本部基於以下的理由敬請聯席委員會維持現行的制度首先提案的內容會撼動對待所有適用這個制度的人權利義務都應該要對等公平的核心原則我們現在的制度就是繳費的義務跟給付的義務其實是對等的"},{"start":2993.362,"end":3016.402,"text":"也就是說在大家都不再承擔工作的狀態之下同等級的人會領一樣的退休金不會因為你在職的時候你是高薪的醫師或者是警察還是一般官員而有所不同那在前段的繳費設計上也是一樣大家都是用本分的兩倍來做標準做提撥那如果是"},{"start":3018.484,"end":3020.205,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":3044.793,"end":3048.034,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":3074.737,"end":3080.119,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":3099.923,"end":3100.123,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":3119.796,"end":3144.128,"text":"另外在退休降臨的部分他也可以提早10年可以領月退休金另外執勤中的殉職是比較佔地殉職因公傷亡未免金的標準是不可以低於公園的兩倍那現在公園現在是一千萬元最高那警察修正以後會達到兩千萬元這是最高的所以在現職的危老的照顧上面我想政府也做了很多努力"},{"start":3144.648,"end":3146.009,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":3165.024,"end":3167.206,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":3181.476,"end":3184.339,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議"},{"start":3207.587,"end":3209.368,"text":"特殊基金約15億元以上,預估10年至少超過150億元。另外,"},{"start":3217.486,"end":3217.886,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":3244.158,"end":3245.88,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．一）委員"},{"start":3262.02,"end":3278.688,"text":"有更好的效率讓退伍基金可以做永續的經營。另外警察工作跟軍職的工作跟公務員的工作其實不能講他完全相同因為警察是全天候的他是都要載營"},{"start":3279.668,"end":3280.869,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":3306.774,"end":3313.62,"text":"人員人事條例第三條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":3319.269,"end":3343.777,"text":"也是產生另外一個不公平的現象那現在的調整其實在制度上已經有規劃在推法六七條就碰到這個消費者物價指數達到政府百分之五或者是每四年這有兩個機制那年改後也靠這兩個機制已經調整過兩次現在總共調整了百分之六那目前這個是一個比較合理的做法以上跟各位報告謝謝"},{"start":3347.928,"end":3350.318,"text":"我們接下來請人事總處理副人事長報告"},{"start":3360.972,"end":3379.962,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生、大家早安。今天大院第11屆第1會期的司法法制及內政委員會的聯席會議（併案來審查蘇清泉等委員27人的擬具警察人員人事條例修正三十五條文及附表三草案一共有12案。"},{"start":3380.584,"end":3395.104,"text":"總署榮幸獲邀列席．今天．併案審查提案除了案由7應修正法制體力以及案由9修正法例名稱．例如把工人退休法修正為工人退休資遣撫恤法"},{"start":3395.604,"end":3404.171,"text":"三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條"},{"start":3412.037,"end":3431.427,"text":"我們警察人事條例的適用對象按照第三條跟三十九條之一的規定是依本條例任官受接執行警察任務的人員以及海岸巡防機關、消防機關類警察官人員並沒有包括部分委員提案裡面所提的移民、空警跟航空測量機關人員"},{"start":3432.83,"end":3454.006,"text":"第二如果修正第三十五條因為三十五條規定警察人員的退休除了特別規定比如說退休的年齡、退休金的基數之外是用我們的退伏法那麼這個退伏法所定的所得替代率跟定期給予的調整機制是全體一起統一適用不因職務的特性而有所區別"},{"start":3454.766,"end":3472.64,"text":"委員提案恐怕會引起其他適用退休法對象的嚴謹比照,比如說還有其他的危老人員也要嚴謹比照。第三個因素考量提高退休所得替代率,追溯重新計算以退休人員的退休所得。"},{"start":3474.481,"end":3492.222,"text":"這個可能會增加一定會增加退休退伏基金跟政府的財政的負擔那公務員的退伏法67條已經明定定期退伏給予的調整機制然後又考量軍公教這個聯軍有已經有監控機制又完成了首次的檢討報告"},{"start":3493.263,"end":3493.423,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":3508.661,"end":3532.222,"text":"根據委員的提案都涉及到聯金改革目標的措施的調整影響層面非常的廣所以我們認為應該就聯金改革的政策目標退伍基金政府財政的負擔情形以及其他人員的原理比照效應還有警察人事條例適用對象的妥適性等等來做通盤的審慎的考量以上報告敬請委員指教"},{"start":3534.552,"end":3541.287,"text":"謝謝副人事長機關報告機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄"},{"start":3544.347,"end":3562.233,"text":"提案說明跟機關報告都已經進行完畢,現在開始進行詢答因為今天是司法法制跟內政兩委員會的聯席,發言人數也較多所以我們依循過去的往例,本聯席會委員詢答時間為6分鐘"},{"start":3564.894,"end":3576.199,"text":"非本聯席會委員尋答時間為3分鐘均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位張宏祿委員發言"},{"start":3590.766,"end":3598.521,"text":"我請內政部次長,然後還有警政署長,然後海巡署署長"},{"start":3606.329,"end":3626.621,"text":"市長、各位署長,其實大家說要照顧警察弟兄什麼,我相信大家都是樂觀,大家都想要樂觀其成不過在這裡我必須先有幾個法律上的問題來探討一下首先我先請問海巡署"},{"start":3629.246,"end":3653.374,"text":"我們海巡署的組成是不是有軍人、警察跟特考三種身份的人還有官務對但我們裡面的退休金的計算那有可能有的人是適用陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例也有人是公務人員退休之前服劇法法退服法對不對"},{"start":3655.506,"end":3679.514,"text":"他們用這樣他們工作上是有很明顯的差異嗎還是說一開始考進海巡的身份就不同跟委員報告我們現在海巡署有四種身份的人各用各自的人事法令所以他們當他們進到海巡署這個體系來他們就知道他們適用哪些公務人員的任用條例那他們的每天的工作性質有很大的不同嗎"},{"start":3680.782,"end":3693.52,"text":"不會就是他該負什麼責任該什麼工作的話就那另外像艦隊分署的工作他是比較辛苦的部分那艦隊分署就全部都是警察人員"},{"start":3695.451,"end":3711.81,"text":"對嗎?其實在同樣一個海巡署裡面你看有這不同樣的人那你想想看那他們雖然你所說的一進去大家都知道自己身分不同但是每天工作的內容其實也大同小異差不了多少吧"},{"start":3713.09,"end":3728.508,"text":"看他負的責任那這邊跟委員報我們海巡署的工作其實他是有區分兩塊一個是在君子的部分一個部分是在海上部分那海上部分他主要負責的是我們海域的安全維護"},{"start":3729.409,"end":3748.929,"text":"包括我們應對中國大陸不理性的這些軍演的部分都是由鑑定分子來做所以他的工作內容是性質不同的我剛剛提的是說他們進來以後他們是適用各自的人事法律那工作項目是配合機關的屬性來做不同的調整跟賦予任務"},{"start":3750.895,"end":3775.059,"text":"那我想請問一下齁那我們今天審查的條例啊齁我們是最基本的是對警察做規定那將其他的海防或海巡兄弟等一起納入這樣子你覺得跟現行的體制會有什麼衝突嗎如果要把他們的計算都要納入我們樂觀其成蛤"},{"start":3780.206,"end":3795.01,"text":"我問你啊對不起我不太了解委員的意思我說今天如果是這樣把他全部一體適用對不對那你樂觀其成那你要怎麼去做其他的法要不要修要不要修"},{"start":3805.587,"end":3825.254,"text":"檢視法令的...你如果不懂你就說你不懂阿不用在這邊浪費我的時間阿是蛤?你懂不懂?因為每一個人的...其他的法要不要修啦?當然要阿阿對啊阿你剛剛停頓那麼久你在浪費我的時間在幹什麼?對不對?你不要...我在質詢阿你還浪費我的時間對不對?來次長"},{"start":3831.243,"end":3850.048,"text":"你覺得勒?跟委員報告我們贊成維持限制主要的原因就是說因為整個退伏制度第一個內政部其實不是主管的機關但是我們在照顧警消同仁這一塊我們是樹葉緋瀉每天都在為我們警消同仁的權益在努力"},{"start":3850.808,"end":3875.208,"text":"所以我們平時對於現職的警消同仁事實上我們已經有從105年每一年我們都有一些新的做法也就對現職同仁的照顧我們一直在增加那麼對於退休同仁的照顧我們就按照全序部的規定來進行那這個部分我們認為在目前的一個推動上是合一而且是可以的謝謝沒有錯啊我剛剛一開始也說要照顧這大家都支持啊"},{"start":3876.008,"end":3901.595,"text":"對大家啊但是如果今天我剛剛是就法令在在講嗎啊如果這樣你其他的法律是要修你才能夠去處理這個問題啊對不對報告委員對沒錯嘛吼對嘛所以你今天如果只單就這個就掛一落萬了嘛我就舉一個海巡迴力嘛裡面有這麼多啊裡面的工作性質又是差不多雖然有一些特殊的有一些吼對不對但我同樣我都是海巡署欸"},{"start":3902.864,"end":3920.721,"text":"如果這樣子的話,次長你會不會擔心這個士氣會低落?報告委員海巡署是海委會的單位。我知道啦,同樣的,但你覺得呢?你也是內政部,你是次長啊,你覺得你會不會擔心人家這樣會不會低落?"},{"start":3921.742,"end":3934.979,"text":"報尾因為如果說以這個海委會目前在海巡署有軍職人員在內的話那軍職人員本身他的一個適用的範圍跟警職人員不一樣所以說我們按照這個條例修正的話那海巡署裡面的這個軍職人員大會無所適從"},{"start":3937.293,"end":3953.973,"text":"我覺得啦這個問題不是只有海巡啦會有很多的這種單位啊都會有這個問題啦那我們今天雖然是審這個警察這個是內政部主管但同樣的問題會有造成很多的單位造成這樣的困擾"},{"start":3954.754,"end":3972.288,"text":"這其實是我們很應該要去看的啦尤其啊如果依照公務人員退府條例啊退府法67條規定啊如果超過5%的條長要另案送立法院審議欸這個我覺得啊大家也都要思考一下啦謝謝委員好謝謝那下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":3996.906,"end":4024.085,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請馬次長跟我們的張署長好 次長署長早我們今天要審議的是這個警察人員的人事條例的相關修正條文那警察是我們整個社會安定還有穩定國家運作的一個力量更是我們整體治安的一個守護者"},{"start":4026.721,"end":4048.793,"text":"因為工作的這個危險性執勤時常發生許多的這個傷亡那他這個危險性也相對的提高了當然重視警察人員的權益也是部分黨派都認同的一個共識那今天想先對於目前警察的安全還有福利措施來和我們這個次長跟署長來做一個討論"},{"start":4050.194,"end":4072.991,"text":"那我們看到行政院合訂的這個深夜危老津貼從這個月開始正式要上路那所涵蓋的一個範圍是警察、消防、移民、空勤等事類的人員要給予深夜執勤的補貼但對於基層認為深夜在駐地內工作一樣是辛苦的是否也可以依法適用"},{"start":4074.202,"end":4083.305,"text":"給予這個實質的補貼我想請教我們次長這個對於內政部對這一個這個想法你們的立場是如何"},{"start":4084.91,"end":4104.015,"text":"報告委員我們目前零到六點的這個深夜的津貼我們是暫時先採取一個示範的一個方式來進行那未來如果說對於剛剛委員提到背景的同仁他如果有這樣的一個需要的話我們之後會再做滾動式的檢討謝謝委員那沒辦法一法適用就一開始就把它訂定下去"},{"start":4104.515,"end":4132.757,"text":"報告委員我這個部分我再說明一下那這裡面適用的這個0到6點除了就是只要在外面如果被請你有受理出去處理這個也是算算這個雖然是被請但是你有受理民眾辦案有外出這個也是算可以來做這個審例加勤那另外你如果守望的這個勤務守望的勤務你雖然是是可能在駐地裡面的這個也都可以算值班值請可以嗎"},{"start":4133.208,"end":4133.889,"text":"二）委員蔣介石等19人擬具"},{"start":4151.545,"end":4155.026,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":4175.214,"end":4202.359,"text":"而且他們的壽命減少也很明顯我們看到內政部的報告當中特別提起近年來我們積極在推動警察消防海巡移民空勤人員醫療照護的實施方案以確保第一線執行人員能夠獲得良好的健康醫療照顧同時減輕費用的負擔那我想再請教我們次長這個方案實施這幾年來是否有獲得基層意見的一個回應"},{"start":4204.346,"end":4205.027,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4219.346,"end":4243.107,"text":"那這些特約業呢我們到一百一三年的四月底為止我們受惠的就醫人數已經高達四十萬五千一百八十七人次那其中在警政署的部分就高達五十二萬九千六百七十九人次所以對我們基層的同仁來講基本上他是有非常滿意的一個效果謝謝好那我想這個醫療照顧的方案不只"},{"start":4244.248,"end":4260.627,"text":"這個利益良善也必有必要要持續來辦理但我們政府若要照顧我們的同仁相信還有許多工作條件的改善需要同步來進行包括這個輪班的制度還有人力不足等等的這些問題"},{"start":4262.22,"end":4276.62,"text":"但是我們因為政府應該要投入的這個資源更多要持續來支持的話我們希望說能夠來體恤這些犧牲奉獻我們國家照顧我們的這些同仁那另外"},{"start":4277.932,"end":4291.911,"text":"有關這個警察駐地的安全也是應該要被重視的一個部分我們看到今年三月份有貨車去衝撞分住所造成我們年輕員警的這個殉職那在這個月的月初在宜蘭的羅東"},{"start":4293.132,"end":4312.667,"text":"亦有派出所遭到民眾縱火,導致財務損失。警察機關駐地的安全與否,直接關乎到我們同仁在值班上生命安全的問題。我想請教署長對於強化駐地安全的防護,我們是否已經有了一個改進的方案?"},{"start":4314.008,"end":4333.66,"text":"全國各警察機關大概盤點出來有510個處所,所需的監衛大概7000多萬。我們自己所屬的機關有54個處所,大概有1060幾萬。在發生基隆那個案件之後,我們對於駐地的安全維護做全面的盤點。"},{"start":4334.56,"end":4361.641,"text":"包括各駐地,比如各駐地可以依照他的地形、地物、陸服可以先做防護措施的,有的各相關地方的這個檢察局就可以先做的。那如果中央,如果各地方不足的,中央我們現在盤點出來510幾個處所會來做一個補助。那像所屬的機關這94處我們在今年的10月底以前大概就能夠完成。那需要改善的處所大概就是500多?510處。"},{"start":4363.582,"end":4368.024,"text":"條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具"},{"start":4384.213,"end":4405.488,"text":"我希望說我們調整出一個最平衡的一個方案至少在明年的五月一號勞動節的時候能夠把我們的警校還有軍公教都納入來適用全國一致的放假那這之前在這個不管是委員會或是院會我都曾經諮詢過也包括當時的陳建仁這個前院長也承諾要來檢討那我想針對這個問題我們現在目前的進度到哪裡"},{"start":4409.651,"end":4435.572,"text":"明年五月一號有沒有可能能夠全國一致來放假?各位委員報告我們現在對那個紀念日及節日實施辦法現在在修正中是對那如果我們進度來得及的話我們希望明年能夠讓全國的這個勞動者都能夠享有這個五一勞動節好這我們期待拜託我們內政部跟我們相關部會的這些主管能夠積極來辦理好以上謝謝我們的次長跟我們署長"},{"start":4436.655,"end":4439.472,"text":"謝謝陳委員那下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":4455.445,"end":4468.295,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關長官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請內政部馬次長群術部張次長以及兩位警政署張署長和消防署蕭署長"},{"start":4475.758,"end":4497.769,"text":"次長好 署長好首先我先請教一下我們警政署張署長我這邊看到我們的媒體報導現在全台的警察人力吃緊單單彰化縣警局就申請退休有超過555人那你說的詐欺案的案量增加每個偵辦的員警他都至少50件破百"},{"start":4498.308,"end":4498.408,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":4520.024,"end":4544.739,"text":"基本上我們大概有三個面向去思考如果限職的警力吃緊大家想退休那可能就兩個方向一個是怎樣減少他們的工作負擔第二個限職的人提高他的待遇增加他的福利那另外一個就是他可能是不是退休的己父我們來思考一下過去我在地方任副首長的時候曾經有一段時間好幾十年前了很多老師要退休"},{"start":4545.479,"end":4570.948,"text":"為什麼因為退休後的所得替代率很高他覺得我現在工作因為這小朋友也是領這些錢不如我退下來那你認為方向上如果遇到警力吃緊你認為現在的警察警消人員的退休待遇有非常好嗎有特別好嗎有比別人好嗎有沒有根委員報告我們目前警消人員的退休待遇是跟公務人員一樣好一樣嘛齁所以是跟人家一樣好來我們現在請那個張次長來"},{"start":4574.807,"end":4576.148,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":4597.74,"end":4611.471,"text":"軍人的退休年資,退休的時候年資較短,是不是這樣?普遍來講。對,普遍是這樣。那警校人員退休年資比較長。對。那因為呢,年齡的差別,因為軍人的退休年紀限制,現年退休年齡較低,是不是這樣?對。"},{"start":4612.534,"end":4614.156,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":4631.838,"end":4632.218,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會議"},{"start":4657.882,"end":4668.85,"text":"提待率高一點他領的才會多但是呢如果以公務人員或警校來講如果他們退職的時候年資長待遇高他的提待率稍微低一點其實領的還是不比軍人少是不是這樣子"},{"start":4669.224,"end":4670.585,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":4692.762,"end":4714.512,"text":"那現在就會來了,如果說現在我們兩個選項,限職人員你要提高限職人員的安全保障還是提高他的退休人員的給付,若你可以選的話你哪個優先要辦理?對於警消來講。跟委員報告,我們一定會優先針對限職的警消人員。好,那你有什麼具體計畫來強化限職警消人員的人身安全及他的保障?"},{"start":4715.397,"end":4743.53,"text":"跟委員報告我們從105年開始我們在警方的部分總共執行了16個計畫是那這16個計畫從這個包括他的警察員的縫表的一個提高那還有就是說我們一些警察員警刑加警表的修正其實都一直有在修正你講的是待遇但是我覺得現在大家看到我們警消的一些英勇的警消他們的傷亡損失我們很心痛所以請教一下"},{"start":4745.384,"end":4761.716,"text":"警政署張署長,你有沒有穿過防彈衣?每個員警是不是都有配發?校防署校務署長,你們的校防弟兄是不是都有公發的裝備來保護自己?都已經到位了。但是我還要提醒一點,"},{"start":4762.376,"end":4791.397,"text":"其實每個人的個別差異有不一樣公發的設備無法滿足每個人差別我知道在其他國家美國他們的警校都可以自己買個人裝備因為需要強化哪裡他自己知道他也不會去買一些沒有用的東西放在身上對不對你們的弟兄有沒有自己花錢去買裝備來保護自己有沒有公發裝備以外的東西因為身材的差異他可能哪裡需要補強有沒有這樣的需求你們沒有這樣的需求公家買的那有沒有人自己再強化一點"},{"start":4792.584,"end":4808.245,"text":"如果自己要強化一點應該有的應該有的消防署呢有沒有因為你們的身材差異不太一樣啊因為我們的裝備都是要國際的標準國際標準好來我要馬次長你在這方面很熟啊你知道其他國家的這樣的警消人員他們有沒有會自行購買裝備"},{"start":4809.434,"end":4809.694,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":4834.278,"end":4841.989,"text":"求救的一文曝光可是消防局長說法卻不一樣現在居然要查他是洩密請教一下我們消防有督察系統嗎市長來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":4852.261,"end":4875.493,"text":"市長回問一下其實這兩個系統我知道我在地方政府服務過警察的督察系統很嚴密他們對於要包庇失職從上面下去查提供資料上不查是不是這樣子對但是我覺得這一次呈現一個問題我們消防的督察系統可能不夠落實回去可以好好的檢討一下可以嗎好謝謝委員接下來我們最後的一點時間再跟主席爭取一點時間現在我們來看一下"},{"start":4876.133,"end":4901.835,"text":"這是我查過的從公保、公務人退休給幾副?次長,那個全副副董事長這些是退休之後才有領的嘛,對不對?對好,但是現職人員他如果應勇救災而因公而殉職,來請問次長那是不是只有底下的這些辦法可以領?對好,那請教一下齁,那麼如果我們現在講的是現職人員保障是不是從底下的這些辦法來強化?那是全序部的業務嗎?"},{"start":4905.715,"end":4925.74,"text":"這個應該說齁底下的這些現職人員因公撫恤的公務人員的部分是全軍部的那有一部分是在是內政部自己的好馬市長來現在是這樣齁我們來看一下你管的好我們在這次警察再往下看看消防消防也是一樣其實現職人員因公而殉職他這些撫恤呢是一次性的嗎"},{"start":4927.455,"end":4952.809,"text":"是一次性的?一次性好來兩位署長我過去在地方服務啦齁以前如果我們的員警警察因公殉職啊我們都會在機關裡面給予一些什麼工友啦或一些服務的餘貧物資給他們的遺孀啊是不是這樣子因為他需要的是常態性的保障嘛是好但是我們這些退府呢都沒有都是一次性的有沒有說給遺族年金給負責方式領取的警察有沒有"},{"start":4954.489,"end":4971.327,"text":"這可以選擇可以選擇可以選擇消防有沒有也是有來次長來我現在就是說其實目前的制度上給予現職的警消人員的確有遺族他如果因公許他遺族有年金式的照顧方式但是一警一消有沒有"},{"start":4973.141,"end":4973.602,"text":"警察人員人事條例"},{"start":4997.625,"end":5011.437,"text":"都可以用年薪的方式來處理。」可以考慮一下嗎?好,我們最後的結論已經站起來了。那麼請內政部評估編列預算補助警察人員購買個人裝備的可行性,一個月提出送兵報告,可以嗎?"},{"start":5012.899,"end":5013.92,"text":"二）委員蘇巧惠委員發言"},{"start":5049.704,"end":5050.085,"text":"二）委員麻煩"},{"start":5059.093,"end":5081.088,"text":"好 謝謝我先請署長先回答一下署長我剛剛聽到您在回答鐘委員的時候跟我一樣我想從這個新聞事件來先跟您做切入新聞確實是在5月6號的時候我們看到了媒體報導說這個彰化吶2700多人裡面吶爆發了今年要申請退休的要達555人27多的555這樣算起來是幾成吶"},{"start":5087.421,"end":5089.241,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":5115.427,"end":5134.84,"text":"或因年金改革所致。」來我們給你看這樣的一個那我給署長你看一下這幾年退休的這個人數署長你從彰化的這個真的有退休潮嗎你先回答我彰化真的有退休潮嗎國內國內真的有警界的退休潮嗎"},{"start":5135.899,"end":5136.62,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":5152.603,"end":5152.743,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":5171.129,"end":5195.04,"text":"所以這個要不要意願跟是不是申請其實有很大的差距所以兩個意義兩個意義就是你登記想而已但是你到實際到要退的時候沒退想的話每個人也都想要退休啊老實講我們工作一輩子就不就是為了要有退休的時候要有好的生活而政府也應該為了保障國民有好的退休生活而努力嘛這就是我們在努力的目標來你看喔現在我這邊列舉了從2015年到2021年"},{"start":5199.702,"end":5199.963,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":5215.023,"end":5215.523,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":5234.292,"end":5236.293,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具"},{"start":5249.96,"end":5278.25,"text":"報道利用網路上面什麼Dcard說有一個空軍的非官邪匿名信我寧願這個損失三百萬年薪我也一定要走人最後空軍還出來說這就是謠言嘛認知作戰嘛根本就沒有這個人所以我是覺得警察警政署看到這一類的新聞的時候其實你們也應該跟空軍一樣要能夠儘快的有正確的消息要申請我們尊重大家的退職的意願"},{"start":5279.15,"end":5292.983,"text":"但如果這個意願被加上其他的意涵導致我們的警察軍心會有這個渙散或者是有別的想法我覺得這個警戒要儘速澄清 署長你同意吧 同意 同意"},{"start":5294.665,"end":5318.197,"text":"好了那我們繼續來看啦說實在今天在討論的其實是跟我們過去的年金改革有大量的關係我們過去的年金改革不但是希望還是能夠保障退休人員的生活但是對年輕世代也是一種公平世代正義的進行所以它不是針對特定職業或個人嘛是大家每一個面向每一個職業要一起來看的"},{"start":5319.898,"end":5344.217,"text":"那我們今天單獨抽出警察的這個部分來看會不會對其他的職業有所影響我當然非常尊敬警察我也覺得應該保障警察我每次去警友會去警察的活動的時候我都告訴他們說如果任何警察有需要的部分只要能夠維護社會的秩序因為現在說實在的最忙台灣最忙的就是三種職業啦我認為是什麼台灣最忙三種職業"},{"start":5348.533,"end":5358.779,"text":"小學老師小七店員還有警察說真的真的是包山包海所以警察照顧了我們我們當然應該照顧他啊對不對要權給權要錢給錢要人給人嘛可是針對退休金退休諷等等的這個確實應該要考量到整個世代的差異還有各個職業的橫平性這也是一個不得不然歸了公平的狀況那今天啦我們直接就法條來看的話來"},{"start":5378.651,"end":5391.687,"text":"這個法條今天要修的是警察人員人事條例第三十五條所以你可不可以告訴我們現在設計的三款他是有什麼樣的意義你現在我們今天原來原條文的三款"},{"start":5397.387,"end":5419.497,"text":"所以如果依照著現行原條文的三款他其實是對於辛苦的對於在執勤中受傷的對於有功的他其實對他的退休等於是有一個差別在內以對於你過去這一輩子的工作有不同的獎賞"},{"start":5421.499,"end":5430.808,"text":"感謝肯定的意涵在內。」我可以這樣認為嗎?三十五條的原條文是有這樣的設計會讓我們的退休不是齊頭式的嘛"},{"start":5432.541,"end":5450.899,"text":"以表彰他對這個工作上面的他會是提早退休而已他會是提早退休嘛對不對好所以在這樣的狀況下老實說啦如果我們今天再加上新的條文讓所有的警察不分你在執行的狀況你過去工作的狀況是一個齊頭式的調整這符合現行條文的立法原意嗎"},{"start":5458.586,"end":5481.056,"text":"一個因為退休的手的替代力不同我覺得這題也許應該次長來回答一下次長跟委員報告三十五條的原條文和現在增加了這個的部分的話我們對於警察同仁或消防同仁在限職的部分的照顧跟因公還有這個所謂的因為特殊原因或領有勳章他必須要"},{"start":5481.636,"end":5485.139,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":5505.694,"end":5506.194,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":5523.223,"end":5548.151,"text":"我實在是覺得過去最後一張啦過去我們在對警察消防的權益其實做了非常非常多的調整這是我們對警察對消防人員最大的感謝那我們希望在這個感謝之餘整個社會的公平性和世代的正義性也懇請大家可以共同來考慮和維護畢竟國家是大家的社會是大家的謝謝"},{"start":5552.706,"end":5572.723,"text":"接下來我們請謝龍介委員詢答主席我請金正恩署長及小紅署長麻煩請兩位署長"},{"start":5580.288,"end":5584.391,"text":"二）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":5605.444,"end":5625.088,"text":"我討論這個議題實在是說我心情真正當所有條約的委員大家都想要把警察、警校、軍人、戰將、力士、給修立好、老人、農民、漁民、農莊照顧恕農、工商、貿易不惜是我們中華民國的國民嘛"},{"start":5635.802,"end":5656.765,"text":"三草案加到幾幾條大家也都是我們的兒子但是對著警察警校若出意外大家去參加公職若說到退休金就跟你說很抱歉你做輸掉的人你有什麼感想"},{"start":5659.675,"end":5687.666,"text":"報告委員我非常感謝這次委員提議來照顧警察的這個同仁的這個福利那警察的工作是真的是危險性不特定性而且是非常辛苦所以我是我的心態就是說我不管是現職的警察還是退休的警察我是覺得都要照顧"},{"start":5688.226,"end":5712.965,"text":"你講到重點嘛,不可以在這裡提案,還要再抽到變成現任的啦,跟退休的不需要要對立,這不好。我先不跟大家報告,我們台灣的鄉親,你除非頭尾都有警察,當然有一股海軍籍嘛,把你開洞什麼的,讓你走到街外我也知道,有的對警察印象很壞,所以你內部,"},{"start":5715.57,"end":5725.475,"text":"一定我們要調整一些服務壞的、態度壞的、品行壞的、我們的強力處理,這樣人家聽你的就心了。但是你如果想說這個警察,他們這樣沒名沒力喔。我們現在全台灣我們的平均生命大概要八十二歲啦。警察啊,減我們六歲至八歲。"},{"start":5744.84,"end":5746.541,"text":"草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5774.471,"end":5790.94,"text":"做不夠我擔任台南市廟房經的顧問的時候,你知不知道?這個宮廟來自十方的省份每一年都一定固定拔差不多一千萬來支持台南市消防隊為什麼?去買一些特殊的設備徽章的時候裡面有沒有沒有人知道到底徽章在哪裡?到底得到什麼機會?入去就要死了?不知道"},{"start":5804.693,"end":5812.437,"text":"所以呢．這個環境支持人來買這個紅色衣服的探證儀第三次竟然沒辦法去編這個文件你說政府照顧你們會對嗎?照顧不夠包括警察的風暖衣服、風暖衣服包括第一手的武器你以為現在很乾坤坷的台獨進來走都是衝鋒車"},{"start":5835.458,"end":5836.378,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":5865.305,"end":5870.528,"text":"三）委員我們國的武聖啊!總共兩條禮儀啊!到今天你兩條八千幾億!整個八九千億!世代有問題嗎?有!有問題!我問你這屆八千幾億有照顧到這新世代嗎?也沒有!齁!有照顧到這警察警消嗎?也沒有!只是早一段啦!"},{"start":5893.973,"end":5904.735,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．"},{"start":5924.168,"end":5924.709,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":5950.512,"end":5965.679,"text":"蘇町,我告訴你,但是我們要照顧,我們內部的組織要加強。競選也一樣,我也聽到人家的餐廳在開,人家說要消防檢查、要公安,檢查後就有人去跟他們討論,你就找到一間來做比較好,就穩定了。這你有沒有知道有這個事情?"},{"start":5980.479,"end":5980.599,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":6013.05,"end":6031.681,"text":"不是啦,內部你如果有主任啦,有擬特政委員沒人支持你啦因為不是,這坑很大坑嘛,坑兩個那邊警察借的啦,他們拚到快要死啦我坦白講,看到這個邊警守命,擬我們一般人六月至八月,我們就有夠痛心嘛"},{"start":6037.352,"end":6037.752,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":6064.045,"end":6072.17,"text":"所以我們要有良心,在這裡,不是只照顧警察、警少年,專門我們都會照顧。謝謝。好,謝謝。那下一位我們請王美惠委員發言。"},{"start":6093.157,"end":6101.903,"text":"主席,我們現在程序部正式及警政署的署長及消防署的署長。消防署長。我們程序部正式,我們先在這裡先幫你探討一個公務人員及警消及軍人在這裡面"},{"start":6122.005,"end":6127.988,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":6142.045,"end":6147.31,"text":"本席跟你說的你是如何去論定的在這裏面我覺得你認為這個95%、70%"},{"start":6154.451,"end":6168.961,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議等27人擬具"},{"start":6184.773,"end":6186.634,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":6202.895,"end":6219.142,"text":"本年的部分當然當時在做二金改革的時候就經過大家討論因為他們的性質比較實質跟大家不一樣他就是整天都要在警署裡面二十四點鐘嘛二十四點鐘他不是輪班輪校也不是我們政協的上下班"},{"start":6222.864,"end":6224.285,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具"},{"start":6239.178,"end":6240.459,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":6268.012,"end":6271.795,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案案．一）委員"},{"start":6285.544,"end":6287.805,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":6314.501,"end":6314.541,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":6335.691,"end":6337.993,"text":"我不能這樣說,因為我們政府要負責,但是...政府要負責,你還說沒辦法支援,這個年輕人做公務人員,科技這麼辛苦的,還讓他這個沒錢的時候,這樣怎麼做公家機關?"},{"start":6352.805,"end":6364.892,"text":"對,所以我現在今天是要說一個理由說希望維持現在的制度,就是我們這樣可以請出一個跟我們的退伍資金有一個好的改善的機會。我最主要就是要來問說"},{"start":6366.994,"end":6388.803,"text":"我們以前有照顧,現在要照顧現有的要靠進來,你的問題說我們沒辦法支援,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個"},{"start":6393.425,"end":6399.873,"text":"我要跟你說,你有聽到我們正式說的,未來若如此下落時,我們的單位也有可能年輕人會認不住。"},{"start":6406.937,"end":6426.053,"text":"二）委員胡詩君等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議第3次聯席會議第4次聯席會議第5次聯席會議第6次聯席會議第7次聯席會議第8次聯席會議第9次聯席會議第10次聯席會議第11次聯席會議第12次聯席會議第13次聯席會議第14次聯席會議第14次聯席會議第15次聯席會議第16次聯席會議第17次聯席會議第18次聯席會議第18次聯席會議第19次聯席會議第19次聯席會議第18次聯席會議第19次聯席會"},{"start":6435.157,"end":6440.46,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6457.148,"end":6465.734,"text":"條文及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及"},{"start":6471.963,"end":6474.184,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具"},{"start":6492.87,"end":6495.992,"text":"市長,在這裏我看見早日,我們在這個企業裏面有懲處"},{"start":6504.813,"end":6516.078,"text":"十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":6534.445,"end":6539.447,"text":"台灣中華民國的國土必須保持良好以上"},{"start":6560.737,"end":6567.262,"text":"主席有請警政署、消防署、移民署、空勤總隊還有海巡署。"},{"start":6580.031,"end":6594.248,"text":"我先請教我們警政署張署長,請問你支持我們今天委員們提案來去增加我們警察退休人員的福利,你支持嗎?"},{"start":6595.154,"end":6596.834,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":6614.519,"end":6632.937,"text":"如果你站在這個本所就是要照顧同仁的基地我們還是協調其他機關、其他辦理非常謝謝署長今天站在警察同仁的立場能夠去幫大家來去爭取以及照顧大家的福利啦所以謝謝我們的署長我再請我們的消防署長我們的蕭署長"},{"start":6635.596,"end":6646.573,"text":"今天我們很多委員提案希望能夠這個改善增加我們消防人員的退休的福利請問你知不支持"},{"start":6647.248,"end":6676.97,"text":"感謝委員這麼關心消防工作人員那事實上就是包括限職跟退休人員我們一樣都要特別來關心那限職人員我們在未來的幾年憲政已經合訂23項計畫總共達到270億元的經費那對他的福利待遇過去8年已經有13項的計畫已經在執行我想對限職人員這部分來處理當然退休人員怎麼跟相關部會共同來努力這個我們會共同來努力"},{"start":6677.15,"end":6692.043,"text":"所以基本上你也是認同今天委員們的對退休的消防人員的福利的照顧嗎?消防人員跟退休人員都我們一定來重視都認同嗎?對不對?謝謝委員好那我們再想請教一下我們的移民署"},{"start":6695.526,"end":6716.239,"text":"你覺得移民署的同仁辛不辛苦啊?危不危險工作?辛苦而且危險謝謝委員那今天對於今天立法委員們提案希望能夠照顧我們移民署的退休人員的福利請問你知不支持?當然支持非常謝謝我們移民署來請我們的空勤總隊長同樣的問題你支持嗎?你支持委員們來照顧我們"},{"start":6722.833,"end":6730.744,"text":"公勤總隊的退休弟兄們的福利嗎?支持支持好謝謝我們再請我們的海巡署張署長"},{"start":6732.631,"end":6755.712,"text":"請問你支持委員們照顧我們海巡弟兄,尤其是海巡弟兄真的很辛苦啊,沒錯吧?風浪中搏鬥,然後在路上也要去做這個相關的一些巡查海防,很辛苦吧?有沒有危險性?所以你支不支持來爭取改善我們退休海巡人員的福利?"},{"start":6756.226,"end":6782.856,"text":"非常謝謝委員關心有關於海巡人員不管是在職不管是退休都要好好照顧那這個部分我們會配合那個行政院的政策然後跟其他部會協調我們積極的推動這件事情所以你認同你也支持今天提高我們海巡退休人員的待遇謝謝委員的關心好謝謝你我們發現齁我們最前線的我們今天的幾個機關齁"},{"start":6785.282,"end":6799.395,"text":"因為不管今天委員們有的提案是針對警消有提案針對海巡針對移民署、空勤總隊他們有一個共同的特性就是他們的工作都有相當的危險性"},{"start":6800.98,"end":6814.726,"text":"這相當危險性其實他的退休的一個照顧跟他的退休的福利其實也就是對他整個生涯過程當中我們提供一個應該有的一個回饋"},{"start":6815.706,"end":6845.326,"text":"同時也是構成因為任何人在選擇職外過程當中他看的也不只是在職的待遇嗎我想請我們警政署長沒錯吧也包括退休的嗎對沒錯對所以此某種程度今天在職跟退休當然都要照顧但是今天的退休今天的退休對不對就是昨天的在職啊對不對今天的在職就是明天的退休他其實嚴格來講都要照顧但是他其實是一體性的我不知道署長認不認同這件事情"},{"start":6846.587,"end":6852.673,"text":"認同對嘛好所以此在這邊哈我要特別講我就問一下我們署長你知道哈這個"},{"start":6854.451,"end":6881.128,"text":"我們有這邊有一句話好一段話警察工作非常辛苦日夜顛倒執勤時長期處在精神緊繃狀態那過去我們在警察照顧上做的不夠完整受限財政的情況不同有不同的制度跟福利這樣情況應該要改善國家要投入更多的資源來支持遠景身心的醫療照顧所以今天內政部在這裡我們請你負責這件事跟部會討論協調"},{"start":6882.529,"end":6911.248,"text":"提出照顧員警身心健康的完整計劃。」你知道這段話誰說的嗎?這段話誰說的?非常體恤我們警察同仁的。應該是我們的政府說的嘛。對,那蔡英文總統說的。對。所以換言之很明顯的我們蔡總統也知道今天站在第一線的我們的警消,我們的一些有危險勤務工作的一些同仁,他們其實負擔了很大很大的一些工作上的負擔。"},{"start":6912.068,"end":6937.633,"text":"那最近尤其大家可以看到說有些人就講說我們對於這些我們的危險勤務的政府的一些前線的人員常常今天只要出了事情大家就開始去這個就表示哀悼啊然後要去檢討啊可是常常今天攻擊明天忘記這種現象就是只是在今天出事的時候然後去想到說今天不管警察消防人員"},{"start":6938.453,"end":6963.093,"text":"但是真的到我們需要幫助的時候你就發現這些力量是不在的所以今天為什麼我們要提出這樣的一個改革的一個提案就是要讓我們今天包括我們的有危險情務的警察消防人員海巡或是空勤總隊或是移民署的同仁今天得到一個合理的待遇跟照顧最後我想請教一下我們的那個全序部來全序部"},{"start":6965.677,"end":6993.209,"text":"我看到你們的報告第9頁你就說如果說今天以警消人員來說按照我們今天的這個方案10年要增加20億元嘛對不對如果是警消的部分第9頁啊你們的報告寫的啊我們報告我們後來有補充一個資料給大家就是從第10年到第19年每年每年會增加這個"},{"start":6995.427,"end":7015.876,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條條"},{"start":7024.571,"end":7025.651,"text":"二）委員三）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":7053.527,"end":7053.727,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7069.308,"end":7088.959,"text":"兩兆八千億欸那我要跟你講重點是什麼今天你跟我講說多十億多二十億每年你要跟我講這個事情我是每年比馬政府說多一兆欸你今天電力齁能源政策正確一點核電齁早點去啟用"},{"start":7089.679,"end":7090.059,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":7109.685,"end":7133.713,"text":"其實真的你好好照顧今天我們的這些警消還有一些危險勤務的人員這是政府的責任當然你要去橫平你的財政的一個考量我可以知道你的立場有這個立場我沒有為難你但是我要回頭要講什麼事情你覺得十億負擔很大我看到每年多一兆我的負擔才大我嚇死啊"},{"start":7134.913,"end":7135.033,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7156.503,"end":7156.863,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7185.333,"end":7185.533,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7210.78,"end":7217.044,"text":"我都很尊敬他們,所有的警察會我非常地尊敬他們,我非常地尊敬他們,我非常地尊敬他們,我非常地尊敬他們,我非常地尊敬"},{"start":7228.53,"end":7228.79,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":7254.944,"end":7255.084,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7274.471,"end":7298.343,"text":"我們現在先做宣告今天有委員提出臨時提案那我們依據本會的往例依據在上午的11點處理那如果屆時有委員正在詢答那就與該位委員詢答完畢之後就進行處理臨時提案接下來由本席發言所以我們請羅委員代理主席"},{"start":7314.286,"end":7324.598,"text":"二）委員吳宗憲委員發言我們請兩位署長消防及警政署署長"},{"start":7328.564,"end":7338.589,"text":"兩位次長我覺得是正次就不用啦因為比較我大概會瞭解說正次跟常次還是有不一樣的功能性所以就不多請教先這樣"},{"start":7347.642,"end":7375.033,"text":"先跟兩位說聲道抱歉就昨天有一點對兩位有一點不高興動怒了但是但是因為昨天兩位說要請假那我覺得我在這邊先說明一下就是我不同意請假其實主要是因為今天我們討論的事情是兩位署長你底下所有的同仁以及退休的那些學長們的"},{"start":7376.624,"end":7377.044,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":7391.818,"end":7394.059,"text":"條例修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":7413.166,"end":7414.647,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":7441.986,"end":7442.126,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7464.188,"end":7485.284,"text":"請教兩位好了因為剛剛其實有有有其他委員有跟兩位請教說請問一下你們到底支不支持我們這次多位委員所提出來的提案就是就這個年金的所得替代率我們希望修正請問兩位支持嗎對剛剛也跟有跟幾位委員報告過了就是警察的工作的性質"},{"start":7486.965,"end":7490.909,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":7509.035,"end":7535.969,"text":"我先跟兩位說為什麼我這邊也覺得說這次事情一定要排上這個議程而且我覺得要對於警消或是海巡這一類的人當然將來有可能更多要對他們的這個替代率要去調整主要是因為這些人他本身就是高危險的職業並不是說像一般我們公務員的文員方面可能相對他的危險性較低所以"},{"start":7537.116,"end":7540.297,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":7552.842,"end":7574.021,"text":"做這樣子的認定結果你卻沒有給他相對的尊重這一點我其實不太能夠接受我們看一下其實過去20年有28位警察殉職那最近10年有43位消防員殉職這個數字是很可怕而且每一個數字我覺得代表的是那個家庭的破碎你不能夠說等閒釋之這個問題"},{"start":7578.149,"end":7600.129,"text":"國家需要穩定的時候大家都找他們國家穩定了之後大家都忘記他們這點我真的是很難接受更何況說這段時間傷殘以遠景來說好了平均每年傷殘的人數是700到900人而且像剛剛那個蘇委員他有所提到的"},{"start":7600.709,"end":7627.113,"text":"平均年齡也比國人少掉非常多這個當然跟他們執勤的時間不固定這個都有很大關係對健康傷害是很大所以你動不動拿他來跟一般的公務員朝九晚五的公務員來比我說真的我不太能接受畢竟我以前工作的經驗我也當過一般朝九晚五的公務員我也跟警察一起出去辦案過所以我很了解這個不能夠完全相等的比擬"},{"start":7631.707,"end":7637.063,"text":"再來我們看一下這一段時間這個年金改革之後其實"},{"start":7638.888,"end":7663.186,"text":"政府總是告訴人民一個這樣我們可以省多少錢但他卻沒有告訴人民他帶來有多嚴重的副作用我們以這個數字來看警察退休的年齡在110年他的平均退休年齡已經到56.3歲等於我剛出來的時候那時候派出所都是黑頭髮年輕小夥子你現在去派出所去看一堆人都滿頭白髮那這樣子的他要怎麼樣去維持到"},{"start":7663.846,"end":7665.487,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":7686.789,"end":7705.1,"text":"因為你年改之後他們在生活上面他們的支出要縮減一樣會造成另外問題除了他們的生活品質影響之外他還有可能會造成社會上面他經濟也會減少經濟減少之後小吃店什麼他們也受損啊因為他們賺不到他們沒有生意做賺不到錢"},{"start":7705.98,"end":7727.717,"text":"國家也會有問題啊因為他抽不到稅金所以這一連串下來我只國家只告訴人民說我省了多少錢卻沒有告訴人民說這樣的副作用有多少這是我對於這國家的一些做法我其實不是很認同的地方啦更何況這段時間大家拼命的在延退那延續了剛剛羅志強委員所提到"},{"start":7728.237,"end":7729.578,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":7746.451,"end":7768.979,"text":"將來如果說要提高警消這些的退休所得的話再到第30年每年才增加60億更何況現在10到19年是增加20多億20到29年增加40多億30年之後才是每年增加60億60億在相比較於現在動不動每年幾千億的"},{"start":7771.151,"end":7798.276,"text":"這個損失我真的不知道我們為什麼不去尊重這些警消我是認為啦就是現在政府給我的感覺是裝醉人叫不行啦然後視而不見的人也很難期待他有良心發現的一天這是我對現在國家的感覺更何況現在CPI變動那麼高你拿之前的那個退休金去讓他們生活其實不是那麼容易啦所以我我一直在思考說這樣下去要怎麼辦"},{"start":7799.522,"end":7822.09,"text":"那我跟兩位署長報告一件事情我爸爸年輕的時候是警察他是警校52期畢業的所以我小時候住在警察宿舍裡面我住的那警察宿舍在桃園地院旁邊是那桃井新村全部都是一層樓的那個老建築我小時候住在這邊我的鄰居都是警察都是"},{"start":7823.03,"end":7846.677,"text":"警察局的消防隊都消防員所以我從小對於警消我就覺得是特別尊敬他們因為他們就是我們的鄰居或是我爸爸工作的地方所以我從當警察官到現在我都非常尊敬而且我都很重視這些警察或這些消防我覺得要保護他們的福利我相信署長你一定也有這種認同"},{"start":7848.379,"end":7874.82,"text":"那我覺得其實我對警察的看法是這樣我覺得國家有難齁如果今天國家財政狀況出問題我相信這些警消會共體時間但是你看這一段時間稅金還超收超收就還要發現金回去給人民然後一堆錯誤的政策那我覺得欸你們好像忘了這些警消這些人付出青春然後拿生命保護我們啊大家都忘了他們我真的覺得不應該啦齁"},{"start":7876.221,"end":7876.582,"text":"兩邊開了六十幾槍"},{"start":7891.86,"end":7894.261,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":7911.428,"end":7913.871,"text":"這就是警察、消防員他們家屬的心情啦所以我很能夠理解這個感覺啦"},{"start":7929.538,"end":7951.123,"text":"合佩山部長在談到勞保的時候 他說國家撥補就是對於年金改革合佩山部長他都講過這種話 但是他是對勞工那你不能說對公務員反而就不在乎這個啦所以我再請教兩位署長 你到底知不支持我們這一次國民黨"},{"start":7952.568,"end":7954.831,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":7973.558,"end":7974.819,"text":"兩位組長你也要給我們力量你也要給現職的人"},{"start":7984.741,"end":7986.562,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條"},{"start":8007.339,"end":8031.876,"text":"這個社會本來就應該給軍警消海巡這些人最高的尊敬而不是像現在這個做法因為他們是拿生命在保護我們的生命所以我希望兩位署長不好意思我昨天動怒了但是我這邊跟你們說聲抱歉但是我還是覺得今天這件事情對警消還有其他人而言是非常重要的一件事那我也希望你們繼續支持我們能夠做這樣的改革謝謝兩位"},{"start":8044.111,"end":8056.19,"text":"好謝謝那我們下一位請牛許廷委員好謝謝主席警政署長消防署長有請麻煩兩位署長"},{"start":8066.789,"end":8081.867,"text":"委員早安兩位辛苦了今天大家都對兩位靈魂拷問為什麼因為大家都希望幫不管是現職的或者是退休的警消同仁爭取剛好的生活品質嘛對不對那我就"},{"start":8082.848,"end":8100.055,"text":"單刀直舞我就直接問我們這個警消人員的人事制度包含考試、教育、訓練、任用、官制、官規、福祉、配接、獎懲、考核、考期、升遷、調度等等這些的人事制度法源依據是什麼?警政署長請回答"},{"start":8100.895,"end":8121.384,"text":"警察人事條例警察人事條例來消防署長請回答我們包括一般公務員跟消防員有消防人事條例對不對還沒用警察人員管理條例也是用警察人事條例所以都是有特別法來做規範嘛對不對兩個體系的人都有它其實有不同於一般公務員體系的規範對不對好這第一個第二個那我想請問兩位署長輪流回答"},{"start":8123.605,"end":8146.517,"text":"這個警校的人事制度啊為什麼要自由體系自成體系然後有別於一般的公教人員為什麼因為他是工作的特殊性跟一般的公教人員是不一樣的舉幾個例子不管是就是在工作就是在勤務之二十小時都都不休息的而且是採輪班制的跟一般的公教人員上下班是不一樣的來消防署長你覺得勒"},{"start":8147.377,"end":8171.184,"text":"消防人員全職待命,訓練師要經過專業訓練才能具有這個資格。沒錯嘛,所以到目前為止其實已經講了非常非常多不一樣的地方,那我就繼續往下問,我們這個警消人員的勞動條件,其實剛剛其實兩位已經講的差不多了,包含工時、休息、休假、加班等等制度,有跟一般公務員制度一樣嗎?"},{"start":8171.744,"end":8171.904,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":8190.533,"end":8213.079,"text":"感謝委員我們在七八五號解釋函以後整個起舞整個大埔的降低外勤同仁的負擔所以目前這個起舞已經趨向於正常化的一個處理謝謝趨向正常化恐怕也不可能跟一般公教人員一樣啦而公教人員下班就下班了消防隊起火了就是要出勤嘛基本上簡單來說你就是有執勤備勤制度嘛而且遇到緊急狀況的時候你要召回嘛"},{"start":8213.319,"end":8214.201,"text":"行政程序法第19條"},{"start":8227.332,"end":8239.236,"text":"突然問不一定有概念沒關係我不為難你來直接秀給組長看我為什麼要寫這一條這個是不管是警察或消防阿其實都是基層同仁心中的悲觀這個是職務協助的問題沒錯行政機關為發揮共同一體行政機能與全線範圍內互相協助寫的正好職務協助互相幫忙"},{"start":8246.738,"end":8264.657,"text":"第二項行政機關執行職務時得向無隸屬關係之其他機關請求協助。我要跟兩位署長說明的是基本上警消的基層同仁就是行政程序法第19條定例之後相對來說付出最多最辛苦的基層人員。兩位署長同意嗎?"},{"start":8265.017,"end":8287.736,"text":"同意同意對不對來舉幾個例子來警察我們都哪些都哪些事情做的協定講像在防疫的期間啊我們警察還要去做這些防疫所的這個警戒啦啊或者是其他這一些這個縣市政府的這一些辦的活動要去維持他們的交通安全的勤務啦或者是或者是很多單位都"},{"start":8289.958,"end":8294.881,"text":"很多單位會接受協助關務要協助調查等等所以這些的主管機關不管是衛福部委員或是其他機關或警察機場的關務處理都會要求無隸屬關係的警政署來提供警務協助來消防有沒有幾個例子"},{"start":8307.27,"end":8323.486,"text":"感謝委員還有委員會這邊對消防的關心這幾年我們一直在檢討怎麼簡化我們消防軍的輕物包括捕蜂捉蛇很感謝捕蜂捉蛇嘛對不對我就想講捕蜂捉蛇即便您努力的想要講簡化對不對但是還是有若干的地方基於"},{"start":8324.187,"end":8338.761,"text":"沒辦法這個東西灰色地帶最有專業能力也最好的消防科請你們擔待請你們幫忙所以我們今天提這個東西的概念就是繼承警消就是行政程序法第19條裡面擔負最多責任這個也同樣不同於一般的這個公教人員再來"},{"start":8339.562,"end":8357.257,"text":"我要再問勞動安全的部分公實風險公實的責任有跟一般公務員相同嗎?不相同非常不相同對不對你看今天我問題都非常簡單對不對答案也都一樣對不對是非題全部都差對不對是否相同全部不相同為什麼不相同一樣因為時間有限我們就直接講"},{"start":8358.118,"end":8385.697,"text":"這個我先以警察為例子剛剛我還臨時加了一下消防的2017年到2023年近7年的總計我們的警察同仁不幸因公殉職了65人因公受傷6037人全體軍公教因為因公殉職者229人光是警察佔全體軍公教因公殉職28%消防人員殉職人員19人如果把消防人員加進去這個比例會變36.6%"},{"start":8388.358,"end":8412.366,"text":"三分之一以上。那麼2023年以警察為例人數六萬八千七百二十四人全國公允的人數三十六萬多人軍人二十一萬多人軍公教人數七十六萬多人警察的人數佔軍公教全體人數百分之八但是因公殉職比例百分之二十八加了消防這個全體人數比例大概不會超過百分之十但因公殉職的比例高達百分之三十六點六"},{"start":8413.326,"end":8427.966,"text":"所以不管是警察或者是消防同仁工作的風險職場的安全的壓力也明顯的高於一般的公務人員這樣目前講到為止應該沒有問題對不對對沒有問題沒有問題喔 署長不錯阿莎莉"},{"start":8428.885,"end":8456.45,"text":"那麼兩位署長認不認同基於不同的待遇我們常常講我們不要齊頭式平等齊頭式平等的平等是假平等假平等就是徵不公是否兩位署長是否認同藉由的人事制度體系不同於現有的公務體系同意嗎同意對你們剛剛都回答了那麼退休制度應不應該做一點合理的差別待遇來達成所謂的立足點的平等我們來努力了你們來努力消防組要不要努力一下"},{"start":8457.435,"end":8457.475,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":8476.541,"end":8491.178,"text":"時間到了我們不耽誤後面今天要審查法條我們不耽誤審查的時間我們希望我們這個社會享受警察人員帶給我們的安全和平跟穩定的生活最苦的差事都是由這一群人來做我希望這個國家社會善待這一群人不管是在職"},{"start":8491.778,"end":8497.239,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":8513.823,"end":8523.007,"text":"基於各個情務的實際上的差別來達成立足點的真平等。」這是本席的政策建議希望今天在座的大家好好思考好好討論以上謝謝"},{"start":8545.247,"end":8549.669,"text":"主席我們請全序部麻煩全序部次長市長好市長好我想這個今天其實最重要的主管機關應該是全序部因為相關的這些退府的法規都是由我們全序部來主管"},{"start":8569.673,"end":8579.22,"text":"今天一個早上我在這邊一個早上聽到這個許多的委員是真的我看講得慷慨激昂令人動容"},{"start":8580.781,"end":8605.259,"text":"但是因為今天人多時間短所以我就沒有辦法闡述我個人的想法那我趕快利用這短短的6分鐘就是把我個人對今天修法的一些問題就來請教我們把它釐清因為大家對警察人員的關心都是一致的沒有人不關心但是我們需要中間有一些問題要釐清首先就是說這個"},{"start":8606.42,"end":8616.592,"text":"我們目前的這些公務員跟警察這些退府的基金基本上財務規劃應該有一個核心的原則請問一下我們全序部我們這種財務規劃核心原則是什麼"},{"start":8620.063,"end":8645.628,"text":"我們的財務規劃合約就是繳費跟這個給付他的這個權利率是要對等的有些是同一個基金的人就繳同樣的錢到後面領同樣的基金因為大家都沒有工作的狀態之下那剛才很多委員在講說警察工作的為老我們要在限職的時候去支持他沒有關係這個就是說這個基金一個基金財務規劃的一個原則基本上就是我們繳一樣我們要領一樣對繳一樣領一樣"},{"start":8647.768,"end":8649.149,"text":"如果今天按照修法單獨提高警察人員所得替代率"},{"start":8669.847,"end":8690.545,"text":"那這樣子符合剛剛所講的這個原則嗎會造成一個不公平就是同一個基金裡面有繳的一樣多然後有人領多有人領少那有繳一樣多有人領多有人領少的意思就是說有人我繳了這個錢但是我的這個可能未來要領的被別人領走了基金財務是大家一起共同去負擔的"},{"start":8691.294,"end":8704.939,"text":"所以他就變成他其實是增加了這些人增加財務負擔跟風險增加財務負擔風險我想這部分也是大家在等一下我們主條討論的時候希望大家能夠"},{"start":8707.024,"end":8730.335,"text":"這個就是我們最難去解的問題他就是造成一個很不公平的競爭另外還有幾乎80%的製衣班公務員但是剛有一些委員很激動的講說我們國家這幾年稅收有剩這麼多所以我們要實際來評估如果說按照就這些的修法如果我們提高警消人員所得替代率的話就未來支出我們的估算大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":8731.434,"end":8759.391,"text":"我們未來的支出就是會有兩層的衝擊就是本來可以節省就是把它回補到移住到退伍基金的大概我們預估每年至少會15億以上那如果算到10年就已經到150億以上了它是持續會再增加的那另外就是我們增加支出的部分這基金要多付出的部分我們是用1000每年退休大概1600個警察人員來估"},{"start":8761.152,"end":8761.212,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":8782.449,"end":8801.661,"text":"但是這個基金是所謂有公務人員的我知道一開始就問過所有公務人員一起的基金嘛不是警察自己不像軍人是警察開服的基金嘛以主管機關的立場很難去解這個難題對那我們剛剛講到公平的原則那今天警校這樣子那假設啦假設我們今天通過了這個法案那公務人員要求比照"},{"start":8802.711,"end":8824.77,"text":"公務員要求比照我覺得一般公教人員一定會想要求比照嘛那要求比照之後就會變成基金原來的這個機制可能就沒有辦法承擔了因為我們現在改了這麼努力整個年齡改革就回到原點了對不對恐怕不只回到原點不只回到原點所以這個衝擊會更大衝擊會比沒有改更大"},{"start":8830.57,"end":8852.466,"text":"我想這些都是我們等一下大家在希望說這個我們本委會的委員所以不是我們全區部全區部我們真的是手心手背都是肉這個大家要相信我們這個當然啦大家剛剛一直描述這個警消人員工作的這個辛勞跟危險性既危險又辛苦但是"},{"start":8853.286,"end":8880.148,"text":"如果說未來我退休的警察跟現在還在第一線拚的警察領的一樣這樣子這樣就會留不住人有錯就沒有錯如果領一樣的話一般人性啦我們警察都很辛苦我退休了我就不再處在危牢的環境裡面雖然說在職的時候但是如果說領的就差不多那大概一般警察不會想要在第一線拚命"},{"start":8880.908,"end":8881.028,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":8907.541,"end":8922.41,"text":"只有錦霄海巡還有什麼還有其他其他很多隨便舉個例像這個医療機構的護理人員也是護理人員也是然後那個監所的管理人員也都是這些也是嘛但是還有其他的"},{"start":8923.27,"end":8948.49,"text":"其他他還沒有列到為老的人我想很多供應人會覺得自己的工作很辛苦所以一定會群起要要求要一致那這樣可能基金的財務就會受到更大的衝擊我想還有很多問題不過我時間到我再問最後一個我個人覺得很關鍵的問題就是說現在目前目前我們這個警政事階以下的這個跟值等相當的公務人員"},{"start":8949.611,"end":8956.201,"text":"他們的這個這個他們繳繳費繳費是相同嗎現在繳費是相同他們的這個這個目前的待遇是一樣的嗎就是相同值等"},{"start":8961.936,"end":8965.618,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條"},{"start":8989.972,"end":8991.995,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":9005.17,"end":9030.745,"text":"這樣可能很多一般公務員是心裡沒有辦法接受因為今天整個上午我也聽到很多令人動容的這些慷慨激揚的陳述甚至有人說我們目前這個同樣都在圍牢這個警察跟軍人比先是把警察當作二等公民但是如果我們今天就這樣子修法沒有再去考慮剛剛所講的這些原則那不是就把其他公務員當作三等公民嗎是這樣的概念嗎"},{"start":9032.641,"end":9060.757,"text":"所以我認為我希望說本委會在今天的這個思考我們年金改革就是這個合金邏輯如果被破壞掉以後很多都會講不通啦謝謝我們等一下希望說等一下法條討論的時候我們還有機會再來請教啦謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝那11點了嘛好那我們現在先來處理臨時提案齁臨時提案共一案那我們呃宣讀後就進行處理請宣讀"},{"start":9062.168,"end":9089.329,"text":"零時提案一修正本略以原請內政部一分就警政消防體系督察部門的運作現況進行成效比較分析並就待改善部門提出精進強化方案於三個月內提供書面報告二（評估為加強限職警消人員人身安全及保障編列預算補助警消人員購買個人裝備可行性並於一個月內提出書面報告"},{"start":9090.009,"end":9114.578,"text":"三）檢討現有易警易交及易銷人身安全保險項目並研議增列因公殉職者以屬照顧年金給付方式於三個月內提出書面報告。提案人委員鍾嘉斌等宣讀完畢。好,謝謝。那臨時提案第一案,請問提案委員有補充說明?沒有。"},{"start":9117.113,"end":9133.151,"text":"那針對臨時提案請問機關有沒有其他的意見或說明就是機關這邊有沒有沒有好那如果沒有的話那我們就一好來羅委員"},{"start":9135.984,"end":9164.466,"text":"我覺得這個臨時提案我非常認同但是我覺得因為既然是內政部的部分的話那我覺得加一個修正的那個提案動議就是因為剛剛我們在答詢過程當中我發現我們的警政署以及我們的消防署其實都很支持今天我們的委員們的提案那甚至警政署也說他們會努力的針對我們的案子來跟這個其他的政府單位來協調溝通其實就主要是全序部啦"},{"start":9165.286,"end":9192.129,"text":"所以我覺得在我們這三點裡面加上第一點就請這個內政部警政署及警政署那如何跟全序部等政府溝通單位溝通今天來去優化改善我們的這個警消就按照今天我們的提案優化改善我們今天警消的那個退休的那個相關的福利待遇我就加一個那修正文字可能我整理一下我就提上去這樣子好不好"},{"start":9194.249,"end":9220.96,"text":"那個主席我是覺得兩個提案的性質有不太一樣啦是不是我們可以請羅委員另外提一個案我們都可以支持但是提案性質不同一個是就限職人員的安全保障那一個是退休人員的福利待遇好那我我覺得大家的提案互相支持但是併在一起恐怕方向上我們是要請內政部那是不是可以請羅委員你也可以提一個案子好不好"},{"start":9225.036,"end":9246.405,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具 ．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具 ．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具 ．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具 ．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具 ．立法院第1會期司法及"},{"start":9251.025,"end":9275.855,"text":"陳委員我覺得因為這個提案民進黨這個中委員這個臨時提案以後也有說到有沒有彰化警局爆出這個登記退休潮的意願嘛所以這個事實上真的如果人所的提的修正東西是合理的所以我們要把在職的跟退休都要列入考慮嘛不然看起來好像提這種案子好像是看起來中委員等都非常的支持這個我們這些警察的現行的這個"},{"start":9277.216,"end":9277.896,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":9306.518,"end":9309.168,"text":"不要這樣子講話就好那沒有一個一個來嗎那孫委員"},{"start":9312.438,"end":9341.678,"text":"我想齁這個這個從來沒有說在委員會提案一定要跟今天的主題有關啦這陳一貞委員這麼久了對不對這個這個今天相關的部會來所以就臨時提案那我覺得臨時提案在整個過程裡面大部分大家就是尊重提案的委員同意你同意或者不同意不同意的話你就不同意這個案子通過那如果如果如果這個這個同意那你提出這個完全是可以分成兩個案子的案子他不是說非得定為一個案子嘛那"},{"start":9342.458,"end":9359.525,"text":"那你可以提修正動議那你提修正動議我們就來處理如果說真的連這種臨時提案都要用表決來解決的話這個我就覺得說這個我就不知道所為何來所以我是希望說大家就"},{"start":9361.265,"end":9375.617,"text":"尊重提案委員那如果說有什麼樣的文字修正大家可以提但是這個不要在那邊說什麼你這個提案是要怎麼樣啊這個這樣講話不好啦我不知道你們內政委員會是這種風格啦"},{"start":9382.364,"end":9396.382,"text":"三 委員提到我本席所以要特別再說明一下是因為他的提案的內容說明頭有講到彰化警局爆出登記退休的意願所以有關退休我們才會說把退休的警員的照顧也一併寫在裡頭"},{"start":9397.603,"end":9397.703,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":9423.539,"end":9433.204,"text":"我休息五分鐘讓他們去洗手間然後你們溝通一下協調一下五分鐘五分鐘大家討論一下那我們先休息五分鐘大家可以去洗手間"},{"start":9443.707,"end":9466.085,"text":"三草案（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第3次聯席會議．立法院第4次聯席會議．立法院第5次聯席會議．立法院第6次聯席會議．立法院第7次聯席會議．立法院第8次聯席會議．立法院第9次聯席會議．立法院第10次聯席會議．立法院第11次聯席會議．立法院第12次聯席會議．立法院第13次聯席會議．立法"},{"start":9470.689,"end":9496.187,"text":"二）委員蔣介石等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條"},{"start":9497.776,"end":9497.916,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":10265.879,"end":10275.368,"text":"好謝謝各位的耐心那我們現在繼續會議我們有新收臨時提案第二案那請宣讀"},{"start":10278.289,"end":10301.26,"text":"臨時提案二．針對警政署長馴達表示,針對今日提案改善警消退休人員待遇,致警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條相關內容,願與權序部等相關政府機關溝通,請警政署於一個月內提出說帖,提案人委員羅自強等宣讀完畢。"},{"start":10304.6,"end":10329.922,"text":"臨時提案兩案均已宣讀完畢,現在逐案審理。先處理臨時提案第一案。請問提案委員有補充說明?沒有。好,謝謝。那針對臨時提案,請問機關有其他意見或補充?是署長請說。署長希望改成三個月。應該是指第二案,不是指第一案。第一案,第一案。"},{"start":10337.38,"end":10349.971,"text":"我們先討論第一案,謝謝署長,先討論第一案那請問就第一案的,不好意思是我的錯,我沒有講清楚請問一下就第一案的部分,機關有其他意見說明或補充?"},{"start":10357.717,"end":10385.109,"text":"二）委員蘇長請問一下就臨時提案的第一案他在第二點的時候是說一個月內提供書面報告第三點是三個月請問你剛說的三個月是指第二點還是第三點講第二案OK那沒問題好那謝謝各位那請問一下就臨時提案的第一案各位有"},{"start":10386.38,"end":10406.53,"text":"其他意見?沒有的話我們就依照修正後的文字通過。現在討論臨時提案第二案,請問提案委員有無補充說明?針對臨時提案第二案,請問機關有其他意見或說明?"},{"start":10417.856,"end":10437.007,"text":"請問就第二案修正後的文字各位委員有沒有不同意見沒有的話那臨時提案第二案就依照修正後的文字通過改為三個月好謝謝各位那我們接下來繼續詢答那我們請翁曉琳委員進行詢答"},{"start":10450.92,"end":10461.939,"text":"麻煩有請人事行政總署的李副司長麻煩請副司長還有權敘部的張次長好了"},{"start":10469.507,"end":10488.385,"text":"今天是針對有關於警消人員的退府年改要進行修正。看了人事行政總署以及全序部這邊所做的報告說明,基本上是不贊成這樣的一個修改。"},{"start":10488.925,"end":10514.214,"text":"那麼我還記得我在之前的這個執行人事總處的時候我曾經有問過處長一件事情人事總長一件事情就是軍、工、教、警消、司法人員其實這些工作型態差異很大尤其是軍、工、教這三個完全是不同的領域然後再加上警消其實本來就應該要有不同的奉給、福利和退府制度"},{"start":10514.514,"end":10516.035,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．委員"},{"start":10530.143,"end":10532.344,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三三草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":10560.549,"end":10587.421,"text":"各位委員報告軍公教本來軍就是軍的體系就一套公教分圖教也自行一套那另外的公務人員部分就是自行一套所以警消就是在我們的公務人員的範圍裡面我們公務人員一般是用的普通法叫公人任用法公人任用法裡面有一條是特種人事制度就是警消這方面的警察人條例但是他身分別還是公務人員"},{"start":10588.631,"end":10611.468,"text":"這就是我們在講就是這個也是希望人事總書這邊可以與時俱進要去檢討現在公務人員任用條例裡面的相關規定明明我們就知道警消的工作的性質他其實是介於軍人跟公務員一般文職公務員之間那他的工作的特性他的勞務的性質其實是跟一般的文職的公務員是不一樣的"},{"start":10612.448,"end":10637.442,"text":"這也是為什麼今天警消人員希望能夠多爭取他們的一些福利本席基本上是支持應該要強化多保障警消人員的福利待遇以及他的退福可是就可以發現其實我們的政府的思維始終還是停留在60年前對於這種廣義公務員的思維可是現在的情形已經不一樣時代在改變"},{"start":10638.642,"end":10664.071,"text":"我覺得其實釜底抽薪的這個做法就是應該要將公教人員更細分尤其是公務人員這個部分應該要更細分那麼這個是本席希望說人事總處這邊或是全市部這裡可以好好的去檢討這個制度不曉得有沒有可能就是你們近期會提出相關的法案來進行這個檢討嗎"},{"start":10669.168,"end":10692.961,"text":"我來跟國務委員報告一下其實我們現在的制度其實就是國務委員剛剛講的國務委員期待的就是現行的制度就是這樣規劃譬如說剛剛其實有報告就是警消他的這個縫級的設計在前端的時候就跟同等級的公務員其實是不一樣的他從那個警左三階二階一階到警正四階"},{"start":10693.922,"end":10695.163,"text":"警察人員人事條例三草案案"},{"start":10716.034,"end":10717.715,"text":"三草案．立法院提出公教人員年改法案"},{"start":10744.893,"end":10747.175,"text":"二）委員余琦等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例修正第三"},{"start":10770.342,"end":10772.282,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":10799.975,"end":10826.538,"text":"是依照各自的這個職務的類型跟委員報告現在退幅只有三大塊一個是軍人一個是公務人員一個是教育人員那所有的公務人員就是在同一個區塊但是在海巡署裡面的屬於軍人身份的人他使用軍人嗎那是警察還是使用公務人員嗎警察跟一般公務人員就是使用公務人員"},{"start":10827.098,"end":10850.478,"text":"對對那如果說就這個部分的話確實可能我們這次修法如果通過的話要在這個針對像海巡人員這樣比較特殊的機關他的人員性質的不同我認為說其實還是要有所區別啦他們的退伏制度我的基建跟委員有點類似就像消防人員剛剛蕭署長也有講到他沒有一般公務人員不是全部都是警察人員這個區隔下去以後會一樣是消防消防人員他可能領留不一樣"},{"start":10854.301,"end":10854.761,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":10870.168,"end":10870.208,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":10900.145,"end":10900.866,"text":"二）委員林思明等19人擬具"},{"start":10917.579,"end":10935.678,"text":"市長我想有關今天要審查的警察人員人事條例三十五條條文的修正草案我想我看到的就是相關部門的整個報告都表示根據公務人員的退伏法現在不宜做任何的調整你們現在報告的意見是這樣但是我根據我的了解"},{"start":10940.723,"end":10963.716,"text":"以今年的新退的公務人員為例若是以三十五年的年資平均五百九十個縫點以及最後在職的十五年的平均薪資三個條件去計算的話那麼最後可以拿到的平均月退休金額多少?次長你知道嗎?大概多少錢?"},{"start":10966.018,"end":10972.403,"text":"最高嗎?公務人員對最高最高大概你們平均啊平均數5萬3嘛這個數字您認為足夠我們的退休工人員生活嗎?"},{"start":10978.888,"end":10983.433,"text":"五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":10997.468,"end":11025.709,"text":"將會是一般的醫療跟我們的長照的費用。那麼根據衛福部的調查65歲以上的老人平均每人每月的醫療費用是6500元是29歲以下族群的6.4倍另外依照我們民間機構的調查也指出65歲以上老人的長照需求費用平均每個月是3萬元所以"},{"start":11026.647,"end":11033.432,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．一）委員"},{"start":11050.865,"end":11069.076,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次"},{"start":11070.137,"end":11096.388,"text":"條文要六萬塊,所以依照您剛才講的現在的所得替代率來講一個月才五萬三根本不足夠他的一個退休後的生活的一個費用所以這個我在這邊要先問先問那個我們次長好了因為我看到今天是內政部還有這個人事總處都認為說不宜做修正"},{"start":11097.83,"end":11110.365,"text":"所以次長你認為在這種條件下如何來保障我們相關這些退警也好消防人員也好或者我們海巡人員他們在退休後生活有足夠的保障"},{"start":11112.383,"end":11117.485,"text":"二（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":11142.593,"end":11153.26,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條條文及增訂附表三草案�"},{"start":11170.126,"end":11194.629,"text":"所以你到底如何保障我想我們今天也有提案剛才羅志強委員也有個臨題那這部分是請警政署對於未來要如何保障我們的警察人員退休的生活跟大家一起來努力跟我們權敘部一起來溝通討論這個大家一起來努力一個月內要提出說明那我也一樣期待說我想今天你也說不清楚請你也一樣跟警政署一樣"},{"start":11195.49,"end":11219.182,"text":"就是在一個月內就相關未來我們這個如何來三個月三個月三個月內提出如何來保障我們退休的警察人員消防人員以及我們這次修法的海巡人員他們的退休生活如何的跟來做保障三個月內提出書面說明謝謝委員好謝謝另外我們接下來請我們海巡署張忠榮那個署長那個署長"},{"start":11225.129,"end":11237.663,"text":"關於這個6月9號發生的鹿南開快艇直沖淡水一事啊那海委會的管秉林主委坦承他講說系統沒有失靈但人出了問題啊"},{"start":11239.81,"end":11256.937,"text":"排巡也承認相關人員誤判並表示為針對北部分署的分署長以及雷超首共十名人員分配提出申誡及記過處分。除了人員的懲處外對於內部人員的訓練管理以及執勤時的落實目前發現的問題主要的哪些層面有疏漏?"},{"start":11269.538,"end":11292.697,"text":"對,這邊特別跟委員報告,我們整個雷達徵收是在6號的時候發現然後我們足跡包括守望哨,包括安檢所都有監控但是他把這個目標當成一般進到我們河道裡面的這個淡水區域的這些漁船包括海釣船,包括民用的這些船那"},{"start":11293.558,"end":11293.838,"text":"二）委員二）委員"},{"start":11323.271,"end":11330.237,"text":"如何能夠準確落實執行我們的海防的措施?您剛才簡單的講說因為人員的誤判怎麼會出現誤判的這種情況呢?"},{"start":11335.384,"end":11347.687,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":11364.292,"end":11391.905,"text":"我想我們何時可以提出改善的措施以及當初誤判的主因你還是沒有講得很清楚這個部分我也請你在看一個禮拜之內提出相關的這個改善的措施以及這一次為什麼會誤判的原因在一個禮拜之內向本席以及我們內政委員內政還有我們的司法法制的委員提出相關的素面說明好不好以上好謝謝"},{"start":11396.136,"end":11400.087,"text":"蘇董我多說兩句如果這樣子可以那以後槍砲跟毒品都很好進來"},{"start":11401.769,"end":11402.189,"text":"二）委員黃潔委員"},{"start":11436.977,"end":11462.683,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請警政署張署長麻煩署長委員好好署長好我今天分幾個部分因為今天要審查這個警察人員人事條例那裡面最主要修正的內容就是要提高警察消防海巡人員年資滿15年所得替代率45%要提高到90或95%"},{"start":11464.844,"end":11485.783,"text":"那我想先請教一下警政署現在我們對於警察人員的福利跟保護這幾年有什麼具體的措施嗎因為我認為說其實在座所有委員都非常支持要來照顧警消那其實我過去也非常努力在幫警消爭取各式各樣的權益但是呢今天單獨修這個我認為是有一點問題的因為對的目標不應該用錯的方法"},{"start":11490.407,"end":11514.869,"text":"那先請教一下署長我們現在從2016年到現在對警校做了什麼保障我們從105年到目前為止總共的這些的相關福利措施有16項我簡單舉例來講就是第一個是警察消防海巡移民空勤的醫療照護的一個方案那都是可以普遍的去做有64家的醫院譬如說去救命告告發會"},{"start":11516.71,"end":11517.291,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":11531.949,"end":11532.989,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案案 案 。"},{"start":11554.718,"end":11556.999,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":11582.551,"end":11585.051,"text":"再來我們請全序部的張次長委員好好那我們當然是要持續的幫警消人員來爭取福利那我想要請教的是說現在因為其實我們單修這個警察人員的這個條例我認為有問題的地方是應該要全面來看待對嗎"},{"start":11609.162,"end":11636.844,"text":"對要全面的看待因為同一個基金大概用同樣的標準繳費就領同樣的這個退休給付好這其實剛剛次長在回應其他委員講得非常清楚了為什麼我說不能單看警察是因為大家用同樣一個基金如果我們現在只修了警察是不是會排擠到其他的公務員這是我最擔心的要調整可以大家共同來討論嘛因為年金制度是一個非常龐大要全面一起來看待的事情喔"},{"start":11637.384,"end":11663.84,"text":"我找了一下其實如果我們現在單說這個警察條例會對哪一些其他人不公平呢例如其他的危勞人員是不是應該一起討論包括醫護人員包括監所人員包括義務役包括還有很多相關的人員像是民防這些人員其實他們都算在我們過去所謂的危勞人員裡面如果要討論是不是所有的危勞人員大家的福利薪資是都應該要起來討論呢這是其中一個沒錯"},{"start":11667.802,"end":11668.323,"text":"其他公務員等19人擬具"},{"start":11685.015,"end":11713.449,"text":"心理作和感想在座這麼多公務員大家難道不會覺得很委屈嗎所以我覺得要調一定要一起調反而不是說現在我們就好比說現在有一個大水庫結果我們在這裡撕接了一條水管說我們要把這個15年年資以上的警察人員就從這個水庫撕接出來然後提早把這個水庫的水用光最後就是提早這個水庫提早乾掉嘛"},{"start":11713.949,"end":11729.484,"text":"所以我覺得私階水管的事情絕對不能在這裡發生要談大家一起來談甚至我看了一下就是說如果現在我們用這個版本大家的版本下去會比公務員未來的退休金多17.5%"},{"start":11732.387,"end":11757.261,"text":"一開始就會多17.5%那我不知道在座這麼多公務員大家心裡會怎麼看待這樣的一個條例的通過那再來我覺得對最不公平的其實是對現職的警察尤其是年輕的警察為什麼呢因為我去看了一下這個條例裡面喔就是在這一次修正的啊35條警是用2013年7月以前到職的"},{"start":11757.981,"end":11782.754,"text":"警察人員也就是說在此之後的年輕警察並沒有因此受惠喔!就是說對年輕警察來說這個條例對他們來說是很沒有辦法因此而照顧到的那這樣子這個條例看起來真的是漏洞百出並且對於其他的公務員非常的不公平所以我想問的是次長如果真的要修是不是不能只修一半而是大家應該共同來討論呢?"},{"start":11784.535,"end":11809.033,"text":"我們會比較建議要公平對等的原則這個是大家必須要去堅持的不然這整個邏輯運作的原則就破壞掉了好 要拜託次長遵守這個原則請所有的公務員不管警消不管其他類型的公務員大家應該要一起來共同來討論這個大家共同使用的這個基金的來源嘛最後講一下說今天這樣子的法律通過"},{"start":11809.713,"end":11830.361,"text":"其實是違反財政紀律法第五條第七條以及預算法第九十一條還有憲法第七十條甚至違反我們四至三九一號立法院不得單獨增加預算違反了這麼多法律所以今天如果這樣的法律貿然的通過真的是不只是違反現行的財政紀律更是違憲啊"},{"start":11832.273,"end":11846.812,"text":"所以我希望今天這個討論拜託大家共同來照顧警消的權益真的很好我也很希望達到這個對的目標但是真的不要用錯的方法來撕結水管讓這個大水庫提早漏水好不好"},{"start":11847.453,"end":11876.353,"text":"根委員報告就是照顧警消這個部分限制的警消報告我其實一開始的時候就做人報告不管是待遇啦、縫集結構啦、他的這個撫恤啦、他的這個退休年齡啦他可以早時年齡、月退休金啦或者是這個因公上網、慰問金都是公務員的兩倍這公務員現在一千萬最高是提到兩千萬沒錯應該在限制他的危老的因素上面我們要更加的努力如果不夠的地方我想政府應該要持續的去關注"},{"start":11876.693,"end":11885.735,"text":"好 這個也要拜託我們次長選事部持續努力好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們下一位請黃建斌委員發言謝謝主席 我們請次長"},{"start":11911.843,"end":11919.24,"text":"委員市長警察退休場今年會進入高峰算提出申請不見得就會"},{"start":11921.226,"end":11949.446,"text":"不見得就會退休但是我跟你講有多少人會申請退休那個警察人員是警察機關最重要的資產人家他重點是不是是是是那警察的業務也繁多然後勤務繁重而且他的工作也深具危險性那現在情力不足的情況之下所有沉重的工作精神壓力會導致更多的基層員警在任職滿個15年就直接申請退休了那人力企業越來越欠缺"},{"start":11950.066,"end":11956.587,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文"},{"start":11978.53,"end":11986.803,"text":"那首先我想先問一下我們市長喔市長我們"},{"start":11988.84,"end":12003.424,"text":"警察工作辛苦眾所皆知甚至他為了工作連他的餘命都比別人短其實在我們110年全序部委外製作的這個平均餘命表來看二十歲的警察人員平均命大概是60.73一般公務員員是65.86我想問某部長市長為什麼會有這個差異性"},{"start":12010.126,"end":12010.606,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12034.218,"end":12037.343,"text":"條文及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法"},{"start":12049.841,"end":12068.198,"text":"全國的平均移民公務員跟警察員退休以後都比較高並沒有比較低的狀態當然警察又比一般公務員的平均移民稍微低一點但是他的差距"},{"start":12069.019,"end":12069.84,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":12094.338,"end":12109.35,"text":"警監四階以下的包括警左三階二階一階我們這四個等級其實都把他的縫級是拉到一般公務員八十等年功或最高級警左委任三十等的這個最高等級"},{"start":12110.151,"end":12131.733,"text":"整個都底下的其實都把他拉平了那這個當然就會反映在他未來退休的時候會比同等級的人譬如說警政事階是鑑認第六指等嘛那因為他本來我們在前端都已經把他的縫級拉高所以繳費的時候呢他就是拉高的跟一般八指等的公務員繳的是一樣的錢所以到他退休的時候"},{"start":12132.313,"end":12135.114,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":12151.681,"end":12153.663,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":12168.453,"end":12173.839,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及"},{"start":12189.315,"end":12189.355,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12206.681,"end":12231.427,"text":"二）委員雖然我們除了警察退休獲得安定生活的考慮以外,我想要請教現在我們國家有沒有關心警察的身心健康,定期安排做心理的健康的諮詢跟診斷,有沒有這樣一個結尾?這個我想張署長應該比我更清楚,我們警政署已經一直有在做了。署長我們今年那個房子的經費370萬而已。"},{"start":12234.164,"end":12257.82,"text":"三十七十萬的但檢察院的Burg我們近4年有22個員警自殺全國約1萬名的警察因為情緒受困擾6千人有自殺的意願而且前年你看你的經費才370萬那雖然說警察是人民的保姆但他也是人他要協助這些警察的心理問題刻不容緩應該制定更多的保護的措施吧"},{"start":12258.3,"end":12259.241,"text":"關老師心理健康諮詢計畫"},{"start":12272.609,"end":12292.261,"text":"報告委員,這個部份是警政署比較了解,拜託警政署張署長來做說明。我們這些的這個新府機關就是各警察機關都是有設置,設置的原始,原而不一。那我們現在就是為擴大那個新府機制的委外的"},{"start":12293.101,"end":12297.424,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法制等19人擬具"},{"start":12314.494,"end":12314.614,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12342.806,"end":12368.894,"text":"下一位我們請黃國昌委員發言我們同時先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行至議程討論事項之處理謝謝主席有請內政部次長、權敘部次長、警政署署長以及消防署署長兩位署長"},{"start":12380.289,"end":12406.464,"text":"四位時間的關係不一一問候我相信絕大多數台灣的人民對於不管是軍人、警察、我們消防的弟兄還有在執行我們整個海岸安全的海巡署的同仁大家都有一份非常高非常高的敬意因為他們的工作承擔了其他人所沒有面臨到的風險"},{"start":12407.885,"end":12433.194,"text":"我相信有很多委員今天會提出這個案子也是考量到了我們的警消同仁他們在第一線工作的時候的辛勞以及他們過去這麼長的時間對國家的犧牲跟奉獻我相信絕大多數的台灣人民跟我的想法是一樣的我們對於警消不管是現職還是退休的"},{"start":12434.334,"end":12459.499,"text":"應該都要給予比較好的待遇來肯定他們願意冒險犧牲犯難對國家所做的奉獻我相信這個基本的態度我跟在場四位的官員應該都有相同的想法在這個基礎上面我們就必須要很務實的來看我們現在所面臨的狀況到底是什麼"},{"start":12460.399,"end":12487.448,"text":"因為我在2022年那個時候警政署其實在處理有關於總預算的時候所提出來的報告我看到一個現象那個現象是說我們先看員警的部分他們平均退休的年齡從2015年大概是51歲大概將近52歲到了2023年最新我所拿到的data"},{"start":12488.288,"end":12517.668,"text":"延長到五十五點六十然後平均任職的年資從過去大概二十九點八年到現在已經到三十四點三十三年這個是第一個比較清楚的圖像來我想先請教一下署長因為署長作為警察的大家長應該對於我們第一屆的警察他們的工作他們的生活他們面臨到的狀況應該都有很深刻的了解"},{"start":12518.288,"end":12518.908,"text":"條例修正條例修正條例"},{"start":12543.112,"end":12570.969,"text":"當出現這樣子的狀況當然我們是希望整個國家的財務能夠平衡但在另外一方面我們要考慮到整個警力老化的問題因為警察冒險犯案在第一線衝鋒陷陣隨著整個警力的老化我相信在警察的勤務上以及犯罪的偵查上都會面臨到很實際的問題跟困難署長您認同嗎認同好來我們再看第二頁"},{"start":12571.989,"end":12599.326,"text":"第二我更擔心的狀況是什麼就是說我們在預算上面其實署長可以清楚的看得出來立法院在預算原額上面其實對警察是很支持的我們從2019年7萬5千人到2023年1萬3千人其實數額都不算低但我們如果看實際的原額的話就會發現缺額越來越高"},{"start":12599.906,"end":12600.046,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12616.482,"end":12643.461,"text":"我覺得這個缺口會造成一些排擠的這個效用就是有一些工作在做執行面有一些是警力的不足那可能在排班上也會接續不下來那這個部分因為我們也把這個缺口就會列為是一個很重要的一個未來人力訓練我打開天窗說亮話啦現在年輕人越來越不想幹警察是這樣嗎"},{"start":12645.791,"end":12671.197,"text":"我覺得應該也不能說同意這樣來講如果不是這樣的話那缺額的原因大概是什麼因為我光看統計數字我不是第一線冒險犯案的警察我沒有辦法回答這個問題所以我才請教我們警界的大家長署長就是說按照你的了解現在這個缺額發生的原因是什麼因為我們一定要對症下藥嘛對"},{"start":12671.917,"end":12671.977,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12699.369,"end":12719.372,"text":"在另外一方面我們也不得不去考慮到說當年後退休的人數越來越多年齡越來越高然後另外一邊進來的缺額越來越多那對於整體整個警察人力老化的現象對於警察的工作所造成實際的衝擊是什麼我相信"},{"start":12720.213,"end":12722.214,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條"},{"start":12745.069,"end":12761.016,"text":"一般上大概都是工作上的原因會比較大一點就是因為他工作的項目還有工作上的一個壓力還有家庭的因素或者是他要去做轉行大概這三個方面的層面會比較多一點"},{"start":12762.608,"end":12784.367,"text":"您作為新任的警察署長對於這樣的現象您有沒有什麼解決的建議?譬如說我們今天立法院我相信所有的委員都有共識我們要改善給警察的待遇我們希望這個缺額不要這樣繼續因為我們給法定原額或者是給預算原額沒有意義給了原額人還是進"},{"start":12785.248,"end":12789.992,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議第1次聯席會議"},{"start":12809.81,"end":12810.331,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12816.676,"end":12819.517,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":12845.939,"end":12860.544,"text":"因為時間的關係我很快要把它做結束了今天利用質詢的時間我有兩件事情要特別拜託我們的警察署的署長還有消防署的署長我要特別拜託兩位的一件事情就是說"},{"start":12861.684,"end":12888.569,"text":"多跟我們年輕的基層員警還有消防的弟兄溝通請聽他們的心聲我覺得這件事情很重要這樣你才可以真的瞭解他們的想法跟他們工作上面面臨的問題跟困境才有辦法有效的反映他們的心聲作為我們立法院不管是在政策上、法案上、預算上面非常重要參考的基準特別是"},{"start":12889.289,"end":12889.809,"text":"兩位署長可不可以承諾"},{"start":12907.998,"end":12936.385,"text":"多去聽聽基層的員警跟消防員特別是年輕的基層員警跟消防員的心聲把他們的意見彙整起來了以後讓我們立法院不僅僅是司法法制委員會的委員讓全體的委員都可以參考這樣可以嗎可以消防署署長可以嗎可以最後我要拜託因為我相信這些殉職、因公死亡、因公傷殘的數字"},{"start":12938.905,"end":12958.86,"text":"看起來是冰冷冷的數字啦但每一個數字背後都是一個破碎的家庭我們怎麼樣提升他們在工作職場上面的保護安全衛生的保障我相信這我們大家要共同努力我知道行政院今天針對消防法提出了有關於專章嘛"},{"start":12959.88,"end":12982.315,"text":"職業安全衛生法還是要用消防法的專章我們未來討論到法案的時候再進一步討論但最後一點時間我要拜託一下全序部全序部你們可能是時間比較趕所以你們今天所提出的口頭補充報告針對不同的版本針對不同的版本你們只有提出一個概算的數目我們沒有還沒有來得及做進口"},{"start":12982.975,"end":12998.57,"text":"那您需要多久做一個比較細緻的報告因為我覺得每個立法委員大家都願意負責任的去平衡對於我們警消同仁的保障跟國家財務上面世代正義上面兩方面的考慮那"},{"start":12999.631,"end":13013.98,"text":"我們在立法院審議其實我認為我們要務實理性科學那個不是用喊價的方式所以權敘部什麼時候可以提出比較細緻的報告這件事情就很重要來請教一下權敘部需要多久"},{"start":13015.233,"end":13037.652,"text":"跟委員報告的確在這個上面會時間會需要比較長因為我們不是專業的這個部分我們要委託精算的公司那大概要多久?大概需要多久?一次的精算大概起整至少都要半年以上"},{"start":13038.314,"end":13038.654,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":13063.462,"end":13077.011,"text":"到火場上面衝鋒陷陣的應該要比一般的公務人員要給他比較好的待遇的話那我們面臨的財務的衝擊是什麼因為現在這不是只有0跟1的選擇0就是完全不要動嘛"},{"start":13078.001,"end":13101.961,"text":"那全部就是按照現在委員提出來的版本比照均人90或95%嘛但是在不同的情境下面射算出來國家的財務負擔到底要多少這件事情可能要特別拜託全序部能夠盡快的提出這樣子的一個報告出來要不然的話所有的立法委員在這個事情上面做決策會變得沒有數字的基礎我覺得會有一點危險啊"},{"start":13103.878,"end":13119.152,"text":"報告委員我們可不可以會後再跟回去等個盤了以後再跟可以啦因為我相信我提出這樣的請求絕對不是只有我有這樣的需求啦有很多立委我相信他們在做決策的時候都是很負責任的"},{"start":13119.853,"end":13134.165,"text":"在作決策。」那因此選區部這邊的意見跟數字的基礎就會變成立法院最後在處理這個法案的時候重要的基礎所以還是要特別拜託選區部在這件事情上面多努力一點好嗎好好謝謝"},{"start":13135.446,"end":13152.932,"text":"黃偉你的意思是因為程序部有一個口頭報告說明是你要的是超過這個的對啦他會說你太粗啦就是說你比較我跟主席報告一下你比較細緻一點的來看現在每年多少人"},{"start":13153.772,"end":13153.892,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":13177.873,"end":13183.058,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例三草案．一）委員"},{"start":13202.247,"end":13202.427,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":13232.312,"end":13232.372,"text":"徐宇貞委員"},{"start":13253.874,"end":13259.657,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":13270.743,"end":13288.441,"text":"我想6月15號就是警察節了所以在警察節的前夕我們來這個審查這個警察人事條例第三十五條的條文修正我想也有真的是對於退休的這個警校人員來說讓他們生活更有保障我想這是對警察人員最高的一個致敬"},{"start":13289.182,"end":13292.804,"text":"二）委員賴副總統在去年擔任副總統的時候也有針對我們的警察提高勤務加級的15%來回應這些堅守崗位讓我們的警察從政府成為人民的保姆的靠山"},{"start":13308.192,"end":13311.034,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":13333.564,"end":13357.458,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們警消同仁我們把它分成三個部分一個就是說我們限職同仁的照顧那第二是所謂的撫恤第三個是退休那對於這三個部分我們有三個部分不同的一個照顧跟我們的設計那限職同仁的部分以警察來講我們目前已經有16項對於限職警察我現在針對的是退休的這個警消人員"},{"start":13358.038,"end":13383.724,"text":"退休警校員的部分是依照我們的立場就是說我們對於退休警校同仁的權益的提升這個我們絕對是同意的但是怎麼去提升怎麼樣能夠合理的然後能夠讓我們的措施跟國家的財政能夠做平衡這個需要去跟委員在討論所以次長原則上對於這個部分我們的修正條例您是同意的但就是至於什麼方式我們都可以再討論是嗎"},{"start":13384.904,"end":13387.046,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":13401.876,"end":13416.422,"text":"對我剛有很多委員都這樣提的就是說我們對於限職跟退休都同樣會去做照顧那至於這一些今天修了這一條我們會跟相關的單位會來積極來做溝通協助來做積極處理謝謝那蕭署長"},{"start":13423.239,"end":13449.536,"text":"感謝委員對消防的關心在過去的時間目前是有23個計畫274億的經費未來會投注在消防的工作上那昨天院長也批示一個就針對職業安全我們給消防人員的一個服務這是限制人員的部分當然對退職人員我們同樣盡量想溝通協調的方式來讓退職人員能夠得到相對的一個服務跟限制"},{"start":13449.656,"end":13478.122,"text":"所以我想三位其實對於這個部分其實都有共識就是希望用協調的方式來去針對我們退休的警消人員能夠給予他們最大的一個協助那請問一下全序部我們張次長你好你好像全序部我看他的你們提出的報告是說提高警消等人員的退休替代所得替代率會引起其他人數眾多的其他公務人員的不滿嗎這的確是這樣的狀態因為大家都繳一樣的錢"},{"start":13479.062,"end":13479.442,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":13498.399,"end":13500.04,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法律事條例修正條文及法律事條例"},{"start":13518.416,"end":13521.878,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":13537.965,"end":13553.132,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法"},{"start":13560.735,"end":13587.76,"text":"我們現在是公保基金我們已經很健康了我們是足而提準的然後退伏基金這個部分因為大家的努力大家的共體時間之後其實我覺得啦以公平性來說的話我覺得就是說既然這個老保基金可以用這樣的方式那我們退伏基金應該全序部也要想辦法是不是用什麼樣的方式那我想還有再來就是說請教這個馬次長就是說我們的這個新式身份數位身份證的換發到現在因為暫停"},{"start":13590.541,"end":13594.844,"text":"但是已經浪費了納稅人10億多那現在每年還要花6735萬來維護未來可能不會使用的這個設備啊所以如果每年喔既然我覺得這個稅務身份證應該要趕快的來去決定說到底要不要繼續還是終止"},{"start":13608.755,"end":13609.175,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":13631.352,"end":13654.694,"text":"還有錯誤的能源政策我們每一度電要花12塊跟綠電業者買電所以導致台電到現在已經連續兩年虧損達5460億也是用撥補的也是政府撥補的所以如果這些錯誤的能源政策不要浪費這好幾千億那請問一下我們退休金警察人員的退休金是不是就可以不要被砍了呢"},{"start":13655.294,"end":13656.995,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":13673.526,"end":13676.448,"text":"二）委員韋雲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議"},{"start":13702.253,"end":13706.215,"text":"謝謝 請回好 下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝昭偉 有請我們全序部我們張次長麻煩張次長還有我們警政署我們張署長"},{"start":13733.363,"end":13759.578,"text":"這是張署長第一次這樣向你請教一個問題那我想這個先請教一下次長就是說我看今天我們審這個警察條例這個部分如果說我們單獨去提高所得替代率的一個上限到98到95%你不覺得這又回到年改前的狀況了嗎"},{"start":13760.606,"end":13784.168,"text":"這我們擔心的就是這樣的狀態我最擔心的是什麼?剛剛所提到的就是說整個基金所有的適用的對象應該是一致的一個去對待這是整個財政規劃的一個核心那你如果說單單的去破壞整個基金繳費跟給付標準一致的一個基本原則你比如說警察人員的部分你給付的替代率你去把它增高了"},{"start":13785.635,"end":13785.835,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":13807.099,"end":13834.249,"text":"其實大家在講道理啦牽扯到整個國家財政的一個問題那對於警消人員的一個照顧我相信我們這些兄弟把青春跟歲月奉獻給國家這些退休的警察跟消防人員其實對他們的照顧不是只有說加錢這件事情加錢大家都喜歡但問題大家幫他想想看我記得我們從小英政府2016年上台以後"},{"start":13835.322,"end":13838.184,"text":"條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11"},{"start":13865.522,"end":13870.126,"text":"三十五條條文以目前年金改革的結果目前你看一八十三年三十五年人資退休的所得替代率六十七點五"},{"start":13887.078,"end":13904.603,"text":"五條條文一直到一百一十八年你就變六十趴喔你變六十趴這是當年的年金改革很重要的一個結果我記得從2017年的時候你精算的報告結果出來以後如果按照當時的十八趴的優存跟這麼高的所得地貸率喔我們當初是講說到2031年就是說一百二十年的時候就會透支了"},{"start":13908.644,"end":13908.684,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":13929.093,"end":13946.5,"text":"所以說啊你說我們當初這樣的一個改革讓這筆基金可以至少多活一個世代我以年資35年一線三星警政世界當例子啦113年到現在退休的月啦按照限制的所得替代率67.5剛你說67.5嘛那它的月退縫是62897那如果到118年退休所得替代率60的話"},{"start":13955.203,"end":13956.524,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":13976.934,"end":13989.506,"text":"那他的月退金就馬上變成六萬八千九百五十二比限制多的這六千多按照階級最高一個月還可以差別到七千七百塊錢這樣四十年的秘書關接不變"},{"start":13995.251,"end":14007.154,"text":"六萬五千兩百二十六通過了新法修正以後,馬上飆到八萬零五百九十九塊。這個產生一個什麼樣的現象呢?就是說,處長,這個會變成什麼現象你知道嗎?退休的人,到現在限職的又怎麼樣了?"},{"start":14015.854,"end":14029.008,"text":"對,就是這樣。會有這種狀況,所以我請教啦,我要請教我們署長署長,署長我要請教你就是說,因為這個跟你們最有關係啦,你也會退休啊,所以你們到底對於這個修法的態度是什麼?"},{"start":14030.202,"end":14053.969,"text":"我覺得就是說對於照顧退休的也是要去照顧但是要合理啦要合理的一個照顧那現在的這個所得替代率現在增高就是如果比較國均是90%那未來就是說在這個所得替代率的部分是不是能夠有這些討論的空間那我們會跟相關的這個機關來積極來做一個協調處理"},{"start":14057.11,"end":14057.15,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":14080.174,"end":14102.599,"text":"其實我倒覺得啦你們最主要還是要把說針對現在提出的版本你退伍基金從113年開始你要增加多少支出到118年最高額到底是多少這扣開出來之後衝擊大家才算得出來啦還有很多危險的相同的你都還沒放進去的你像比如說你都如果說到113年你像你們所講的初步了解是53億一路到118年78億這還沒有把消防跟海巡加進來喔對"},{"start":14109.44,"end":14130.662,"text":"那我要問的就是說啊你像比如說你現在如果在警察人事條例裡面你們特別去這個在黨特別去修正所得替代率的話那你到最後你特別法會優於普通法你會產生一個很大的問題喔你看他修正的這個第一項第四款所得替代率裡面還有一個第五款喔我請次長你們特別去注意喔"},{"start":14131.425,"end":14132.525,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．事由．委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":14154.125,"end":14155.186,"text":"三十五條條文修正三草案．一）委員"},{"start":14180.538,"end":14182.52,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":14198.428,"end":14201.671,"text":"對弊會接受。」這個像我剛剛講的,你單獨去提高,那你繳費的部分又維持不變,這開什麼玩笑啊。但是我建議啊,那個署長您那邊衝擊多少的部分,到時候"},{"start":14214.804,"end":14215.505,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":14234.345,"end":14249.753,"text":"這個大家都要面對社會面對整個輿論大家來理性來做一個討論這個不然光光這樣的一個方式的話我我我相信還沒有辦法去大家去體驗到體認到說整個衝擊會有多大了好不好好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝總委員好先為我們請徐欣穎委員發言"},{"start":14268.435,"end":14270.376,"text":"三草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14292.209,"end":14316.881,"text":"我們好像十幾年前在新竹縣議會 慶蘭秘書非常照顧我 非常感謝先恭喜您 但是今天想跟您來討論因為我們今天是談警察人事條例 包含警消這個內容包含警消首先第一個就是說"},{"start":14318.376,"end":14340.471,"text":"同工同酬跟不同工不同酬您認同吧?對,同工同酬不同工不同酬所以我們的警消人員啊他們跟我們一般公務員做辦公室是不一樣嘛是不一樣,我剛剛有報告過等一下我可以再跟委員做比較詳細的說明您認同嘛,所以"},{"start":14341.209,"end":14344.693,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等27人擬具"},{"start":14358.166,"end":14385.789,"text":"工作的危險性還有他們的這種勞動性的程度跟一般公務人員就是不一樣。這個應該是整體面的,我們是就我們這個人事制度的部分做了哪些事。那剛剛其實署長那邊也有說了很多在工作上、配備上啦,他整個的一個這個執勤的方式上面其實應該有更多的配套讓這個我們警消通人能夠有更好的保障。"},{"start":14386.172,"end":14386.272,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":14407.794,"end":14423.678,"text":"公務人員等警察人員手心是肉,手臂也是肉,我們必須要有一個平衡的對待。公務人員有週休二日,還有國定假日,休假,加班補休。"},{"start":14424.418,"end":14424.558,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":14443.917,"end":14444.598,"text":"二）委員為何警消缺額問題一直沒辦法解決?"},{"start":14461.736,"end":14478.525,"text":"為什麼那麼少人想要去然後這個警消呢他加擠這麼多可是離職這麼多那而且提前申請退休等等那多做幾年不是更好領更多啊所以這一塊不用你答跟委員搶一點點時間啦就是我們的統計其實這幾年警消的退休是一個比較常態的現象的狀態但是每年大概1600多人到1800他是一個穩定的狀態啦"},{"start":14490.891,"end":14493.695,"text":"這幾年穩定這幾年人就一直不足啊警消人都不足嘛所以你聽一下警政署跟消防署的聲音好不好我們可以把數據提供給你對對對對好來欸署署長委員好"},{"start":14506.093,"end":14506.734,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":14524.795,"end":14550.02,"text":"對非警勤務所以有一些要他在退休的這個考慮上他可能有時候就是因為他今天累月他可能受不了他就可能就是提早退休我們的立場是我們警察尤其時代的變化我們看到真的警消人員都非常辛苦那當然我們警察人員更是那這個消防人員是有勤務的時候來這個"},{"start":14553.072,"end":14556.975,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":14583.719,"end":14598.809,"text":"消防人員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第"},{"start":14609.522,"end":14622.372,"text":"我們十年前警察號稱八萬大軍現在剩下七萬人手變少但勤務增加加上社會變遷他們都非常的辛苦所以我們還是希望"},{"start":14624.471,"end":14649.23,"text":"如果真的要講到整體那當然我相信很多委員也有講這整個整體我們有為的連人的政府那個錢是絕對可以替我們民眾對我們各行各業來想辦法但是我也認同是要合理那這個合理就是在於我們大家要共同來看我們對警察對警消人員我們的照顧是不夠的"},{"start":14650.211,"end":14677.537,"text":"我們希望可以對他們能夠更好所以這個部分我們也希望次長這裡能夠重視我們今天本席就特別跟你特別談就是說你針對警消我們本來就不一樣那最後我表達就是說有關年金改革其實年金改革也是對不起軍公教人員怎麼可以違反信賴保障原則"},{"start":14678.257,"end":14706.831,"text":"只是這一個部分在過去這個這過去八年這我們不談但是所以這一塊就是你自己也是公務人員就我們就是對不起這個軍公教你如果要改革可以你不能溯及既往這個是最重要原則那我們今天談這個警察的這個條例這個人事條例的部分所以我們是針對警消他們的這種辛苦跟危險我們一定要重視所以他們"},{"start":14707.631,"end":14711.174,"text":"條文提供的照顧,我覺得是可以加權,也可以加重。就這樣,謝謝。"},{"start":14739.524,"end":14748.836,"text":"主席好各位委員各位官員大家午安是不是有請那個內政部的政次還有我們這個警政署的署長以及消防組的署長謝謝"},{"start":14760.201,"end":14778.328,"text":"兩位署長,今天是我們這個有關於這個三十五條的修正案,就是在討論這個有關年金的部分,那今天這個立法院外也很多的這個警校退休的人員到現場幫署長加油,正式知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":14781.186,"end":14799.759,"text":"所以我認為今天這件事情非常的重要那我今天討論的一個重點就是當然希望說這個要還給所有辛苦奉公守法熱愛中華民國的警消同仁一個公道所以我要先請正式休息一下我要請兩位署長"},{"start":14800.62,"end":14802.182,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條"},{"start":14813.499,"end":14820.101,"text":"警察人員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案案 案件,其中一人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案 案件,其中一人擬具"},{"start":14837.207,"end":14862.254,"text":"謝謝署長,我們請消防署署長,這是寶貴的時間,拜託。感謝委員對消防這麼關心照顧,限職人員跟退休人員一樣重要,限職人員我們最近也獲得到協定有23個計劃,271已經會最近在進行當中,那未來對消防人員職業安全、福利保障我想會有更多的一個處理措施,謝謝。好,謝謝,那請正次。"},{"start":14863.393,"end":14864.513,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":14884.278,"end":14890.539,"text":"條文修正第三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文"},{"start":14910.267,"end":14933.946,"text":"大家不要認為只有缺五千個人我們預算切合就到達五千位現有緣額也不足我們用與新北市來舉例新北市四百萬人口只有七千兩百九十位員警平均一位員警要照顧要關心或是執行的時候要配合五百位的我們的新北市民請問一下政治"},{"start":14934.787,"end":14957.364,"text":"或者是我們的署長以前在學校教的時候是給這樣子我們的警察同仁這樣子的環境說你們以後一個人要顧五百個我們的民眾嗎跟委員報告缺額的部分其實它有蠻多的因素那很多是社會經濟上面的一些誘因的狀況那我們在限職的警消同仁的執行環境上面事實上我們有做很多的努力"},{"start":14957.824,"end":14958.144,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":14981.152,"end":14983.313,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":15007.225,"end":15031.47,"text":"我還對很多的議題很有意見現在如果我遇到很多的這個家裡是警察頭人的這個給我反應的心聲現在一般的家庭假設爸爸是警察媽媽因為警察會非常辛苦所以媽媽有時候都全職全職在家裡帶小孩那我們一直在講不管是警消的平均的生命、壽命大概60歲上下"},{"start":15035.653,"end":15059.587,"text":"如果爸爸離開了以後媽媽只能領半薪的部分基本上他們很多都是全職媽媽如果只能現在又少子的話生小孩的時間又短又比較晚他們只能領半薪很多人不管是現在還有被背防帶的請問他們領半薪如何他們能照顧他們自己的現在的家人跟小孩你們會不會覺得這個有問題"},{"start":15061.842,"end":15071.942,"text":"跟委員報告有關於這個他是屬於撫恤的部分不是不是退休了以後的半薪對領半薪的部分你覺得他可以照顧他的小孩嗎"},{"start":15072.72,"end":15100.007,"text":"如果是以這個退休的半限的話當然是有困難對阿這個是不是需要來來檢討跟改善我們跟我們要跟這個權序部跟人總來討論這是第一個問題阿我相信就是你們沒有去關心他們的權益阿爸爸是現在我們的警察人員退休了以後他平均的餘命60出頭60出頭有些還不到消防員還不到結果因為他平常工務繁忙他的太太全職了結果後來現在"},{"start":15101.107,"end":15118.452,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第二十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第二十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第二十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．委"},{"start":15131.101,"end":15137.026,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":15159.995,"end":15180.528,"text":"這個配偶啊只不能領他的半薪只能兩邊選一個看誰的高的選誰那這樣是不是有懲罰婚姻的一個狀況這樣子的話會不會有人就覺得說那如果我的另外一半是警察非常不合理這樣會不會有懲罰婚姻那是不是有違反憲法這個婚姻大家婚姻平權的一個問題這次知道這樣的問題嗎"},{"start":15183.652,"end":15191.803,"text":"報委員我們有聽說那這個部分是不是我們會後我們邀集相關的單位跟委員我們在做說明因為這個問題有點複雜複雜在哪裡因為這裡面有牽涉到權序部的職權"},{"start":15197.698,"end":15215.851,"text":"所以我要跟大家報告不管是現在總結啦因為時間的關係總結不管是我們對於現在我們所有的現在現職的大家一直說我們在保護現職的這個軍警消同仁我覺得保護不足啊光是現在就有很多的問題"},{"start":15217.591,"end":15222.355,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":15246.335,"end":15262.788,"text":"來找我們過來我們真的不知道如何發生所以我希望說是會後大概多久時間可以給我一個報告讓我來讓我來為這些問題做一個瞭解我們會後跟委員辦公室約盡快的時間會處理嗎市長覺得這是問題嗎對不對的確是問題好OK好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":15272.827,"end":15276.648,"text":"好,謝謝張委員接下來我們請丁學忠委員感謝主席我們現場各位官員各位議員同仁大家好我請我們這個人事總署副人事長以及內政副次長好,次長"},{"start":15303.129,"end":15317.522,"text":"委員市長好,今天我們這個調整警察人員的退休金的制度,我們是我們行政院跟我們警察人員的中間,我們可以簡單來說明說我們這個立條嗎?"},{"start":15323.947,"end":15346.322,"text":"該委員報告,就是我們現在對現實的消防及警察人員,我們已經有十六項對於職業安全及津貼的部分都有提供。在制度的設計定管,我們在限職的警消同仁及他的輔助及退休,都比一般的公務人員更好。"},{"start":15348.123,"end":15349.003,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":15377.89,"end":15382.172,"text":"五條條文修正草案案件事條例三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案案件事條例三草案案件事條例三"},{"start":15406.385,"end":15407.626,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":15425.52,"end":15428.263,"text":"一﹗人擬具當然是政府開了年改的國事會議,我們沒有聽到警察及公務人員的意見,沒有他們操作年年世代的對立,讓這幾年來我們退休人員,每一年都讀到退休金,想說高中出問題,我們這幾天來跟你們歡迎,我們會關於提案。"},{"start":15448.604,"end":15449.325,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":15463.991,"end":15465.632,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具"},{"start":15487.621,"end":15490.762,"text":"過去十年總共有五十二位,大家在警察的工作惡劣,惡劣是有多大。我可以向消防署長請教一下,我們消防林原棠這十九年來已經損失到四十五位消防弟兄,經過這兩天的審訊,"},{"start":15508.626,"end":15514.15,"text":"二）委員發揮來殉職,而這部份的事情大家都沒有想要看到,但是正因一件事,警察人員及消防人員,他們的工作內容是高危險度及高辛勞度,不一樣的,像這個公務人員都不一樣,這些制度應該是要人員來檢視,請問我們次長及署長這樣你們有同意嗎?"},{"start":15533.527,"end":15550.06,"text":"感謝委員,感謝委員對小黃這麼重視,其實在職人員、退休人員同步在進行當中,那在職人員我們投注更多的心力,最近就是有23個月要給地線消防人員的裝備器材、職業安全這些保障。"},{"start":15550.88,"end":15551.381,"text":"二）委員三）委員三）委員"},{"start":15569.622,"end":15573.704,"text":"三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具"},{"start":15597.995,"end":15611.186,"text":"這就是因為什麼?因為緊張時,他們在入侵的時候,臨戶相當,身體腹瘓比較不妥,所以他們就都會提早來提休。所以在這裡,要跟我們署長及市長各個說,我們經銷人員,我們都吃照顧不好,我們薪水福利都比公務人員好,真的不好,但是他們"},{"start":15626.587,"end":15627.468,"text":"二）委員三）委員三）委員"},{"start":15654.585,"end":15670.401,"text":"兩位委員報告,因為這個制度有整個行政在設計的時候,還有科技在設計的時候的一個彭平性。所以我們現在就是說,我們對著我們退休人員的照顧這個風雄,我們都贊成。"},{"start":15672.463,"end":15676.947,"text":"條例修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":15692.361,"end":15692.501,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":15712.904,"end":15713.124,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":15742.588,"end":15749.17,"text":"大刀一砍,獨卸給他們當未來的生活。我常常也遇到很多經銷的朋友、退休的朋友,留在人群過山裡。他們說,我說,啊你怎麼會在人群運動?他們說,啊我比較顧身體,到人群去給他們獨卸到這樣,到真的生活過程的時候,要請外勞,那一陣子也有救。"},{"start":15765.376,"end":15770.338,"text":"條例修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":15793.985,"end":15795.546,"text":"一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議。"},{"start":15824.249,"end":15851.263,"text":"指揮官．主席．各位委員．有請這個．內政部．次長．次長．還有．警政署署長．麻煩署長．委員好．好兩位好．這個警察人員人事條例．這個"},{"start":15854.035,"end":15881.497,"text":"從任官、任職、奉給、考核與考積、退休與撫恤都定的每一章都有規定。但是呢很可惜的就是這個涉及到退休的部分就是說適用公務人員退休之前撫恤法退休的部分然後撫恤的部分也是一樣"},{"start":15883.632,"end":15906.037,"text":"第三十六條第一項警察人員之撫恤適用公務人員撫恤法之規定我們看軍公教警消公務人員退休之前撫恤法教師有公立學校照教職員退休之前撫恤條例這個軍人呢"},{"start":15909.677,"end":15932.087,"text":"陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例。」就是因為陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例他有另外的法律所以當初在所謂的年金改革的時候當時的國防部長堅持不能跟公務人員一樣"},{"start":15933.206,"end":15961.259,"text":"所以他的退休相關的規定有比公務人員按照當時的這個比例來去看的話那警察人員竟然有人事條例所以我從第8屆我現在是第11屆我從第8屆開始就開始質詢內政部警政署包括考試院"},{"start":15962.585,"end":15987.719,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律"},{"start":15991.906,"end":16016.569,"text":"警察警消的退休之前不應該跟公務人員一樣因為同工同酬不同工就要不同酬這是最基本的認同嗎認同嗎認同啊所以我當初我先從"},{"start":16018.376,"end":16044.118,"text":"前系部部長質詢現在考試院副院長未來的考試院院長我就質詢他警察人員的退休之前應該要專定在全部移到警察人員人事條例裡面他沒有反對啊我說你們可能不配合周鴻憲當時的部長說"},{"start":16046.809,"end":16071.021,"text":"因為這個警察人員人事條例的主管機關是內政部所以他不能替你們修我擔心他不配合他說我們不會不配合我們要考慮說紅線部長現在未來考試院長說我們要考慮各類公務人員權益之間的平衡品現在就是沒有衡品嘛"},{"start":16072.139,"end":16098.835,"text":"所以今天為什麼要修這個就是要橫平先修未來就是把這個所有的退休之前服務器全部移到警察人員人事條例我還特別諮詢了說內政部如果提出修正警察人員人事條例希望你們配合他說好"},{"start":16100.808,"end":16107.114,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":16116.325,"end":16117.605,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":16139.275,"end":16139.555,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":16168.615,"end":16197.032,"text":"最根本的第一個我們先修正通過這個三十五條接下來往後你們就要好好的把警察人員人事條例做徹底的修正把所有退休之前撫恤的部分全部移到移到這個警察人員人事條例因為本來這個章名就有啊對不對章名都有啊"},{"start":16198.332,"end":16200.678,"text":"二）委員林德福"},{"start":16217.378,"end":16227.526,"text":"謝謝主席辛苦了我們是不是請內政部的馬次長還有權敘部的張次長還有這個警政署張署長還有消防署蕭署長我想齁因為"},{"start":16242.709,"end":16264.735,"text":"根據中正大學調查民眾對警察維護治安工作滿意度達到74.91%有7乘5的民眾肯定警察人員在工作上的專業表現那馬上6月15號就是警察節也即將到來本席首先還要謝謝所有警察同仁"},{"start":16265.675,"end":16291.191,"text":"二十四小時三百六十五天維護全國的治安。現任勞動部長何佩珊一句話說政府撥補勞保負擔最終的知乎責任就是改革本席相信很多基層的警消警察跟消防聽了這個是非常非常的不服氣因為"},{"start":16294.891,"end":16311.151,"text":"講實在話這個警察跟消防他們能夠來在裡面上班工作是要經過考試的餒對不對其他他們有經過考試嗎沒有啊而且有一點"},{"start":16313.934,"end":16339.455,"text":"法律不能唆棄既往今天修法以後你追溯到過去跟政府簽的合約然後來砍殺他們有道理嗎我在立法院第7屆了我們要講道理對不對而且那個年輕改革你說過去政府很多政策講實在話早上那個徐宇貞講的你們真的要汗顏啦錯誤的政策比貪污一百倍可怕"},{"start":16340.476,"end":16365.639,"text":"為什麼我這麼講?一個人員政策光台電就撥補五千多億對不對而且疫苗快篩包括零零總總啦太多了啦講實在話那個一次都幾百億幾千億甚至於那個透抽雞蛋等等這個實在不應該啦你包括這個數位發展部花兩百多億做出什麼"},{"start":16367.122,"end":16381.59,"text":"下一個會期我認為我們要把他砍殺你留這個布幹什麼兩百多一撥不到我們那個消防署裡面添那些老舊設備不要讓消防人員一次一次進去以後就掛掉了"},{"start":16382.472,"end":16387.054,"text":"二）委員二十七年民進黨占絕對多數來推動這整個年金的改革修法導致這些基層的警消所得替代力大幅度的下降"},{"start":16405.701,"end":16423.581,"text":"對退休警察生活產生很大的衝擊,包括監察委員都提出調查報告說其實警察最近就變成反退,為什麼反對?因為新陳代謝困難,基層警察這個他們沒有辦法就老化了,因為"},{"start":16424.582,"end":16429.926,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條"},{"start":16449.192,"end":16471.384,"text":"那一百一十年那國人平均餘命是多少八十點八六歲換句話說相差六年之多所以說基層的這些警消常常在二十四小時他們輪替的他們的任務扶秦等於是日夜作息顛倒導致他們的疾病啦意外啦等等"},{"start":16472.918,"end":16477.119,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":16500.985,"end":16522.313,"text":"這有道理嗎?次長您的看法呢?報告委員我們方向上對於我們現職警消同仁或者是退休警消同仁我們都採取這個一視同仁照顧這樣的一個立場這個沒有問題那對於細節的部分就數字的精算這個部分可能我們要再多一些溝通你回應我"},{"start":16523.473,"end":16552.318,"text":"像這個年改這個溯及既往已經跟人家簽約的然後把他砍殺你要是說我今天這個修法以後從現在開始那沒有話講毋庸置疑但是追溯政府跟人家簽約這個有道理嗎可以用這個多數的暴力來處理嗎對不對我相信這一句話你們回應不出來啦法律可以溯及既往"},{"start":16553.308,"end":16555.43,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":16569.088,"end":16595.342,"text":"為什麼?勞當初我在當國民黨團總召他說軍公教勞全部都要處理勞有沒有處理大家心知肚明啦勞工有一千多萬勞工就擱在那裡就只有處理軍公教因為軍公教都是支持國民黨的嘛對不對幾乎都是支持國民黨把他砍殺嘛對不對讓他們沒有辦法生活嘛"},{"start":16596.921,"end":16619.951,"text":"講實在話摸著良心我們這個社會要公平要正義以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林委員那下一位我們請洪孟楷委員發言謝謝主席我直接請我們張榮興署長麻煩張署長"},{"start":16625.762,"end":16626.322,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":16642.094,"end":16670.019,"text":"最重要的是根本問題有沒有解決警界會反彈退休的保障不足是因為退休警察在職期間權益其不充分被剝奪也因此重視限職警察權益改革的必要性避免歷史重蹈覆轍這是大家都要重視的現在的制度延後退貨是極富少其實在之前的年金改革國是會議裡面也有提出來除了修改退休金以外要改善警察的勞動條件"},{"start":16671.139,"end":16672.78,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":16700.939,"end":16704.341,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":16718.368,"end":16718.588,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":16740.106,"end":16740.967,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具"},{"start":16760.578,"end":16763.601,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議"},{"start":16770.987,"end":16797.125,"text":"指揮協助其他行政機關他們有一些工作的部分我們現在統計起來大概有229項那這個部分我們盡量在行政程序法這個部分請其他的機關在他們自己的權力方面他們可以自行來執行可以減少警力的這些相關的執行什麼時候能夠提出來?"},{"start":16798.278,"end":16823.557,"text":"你身為警察的大家長當然你可能還跟其他署就職之後就交代行政組是屬於職務協助秘書室是屬於勤業務那也有請準備召開一次會議那現在我有經濟我要檢查檢查那天我就把那些那個什麼檢證工作在出發什麼機電零我就把它廢掉了就回歸一般的"},{"start":16823.977,"end":16830.42,"text":"那現在這些經典的工作我在8月1號以前會整個全部把它提出來8月1號還要兩個月的時間對會去做盤點好署長本席為什麼會特別講兩個部分第一你剛剛講到打造沒有錯我自己在第一線跟基層同仁員警我還看到署長我看到分局長他都還要不厭其煩的利用每一次參會時間上台致詞的時候"},{"start":16848.908,"end":16850.39,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":16868.712,"end":16869.693,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":16882.483,"end":16904.071,"text":"甚至之前我們有聽到我們的基層同仁還有講說我們上面交辦下來要求我們第一線的遠景同仁去找網紅去找有線電視去找不用錢的宣傳來去做反詐騙的宣傳我們這部分已經都把它精簡了"},{"start":16907.335,"end":16912.121,"text":"本期就是要講到這一些部分這一些真的就是老民啊我們甚至有那個員警來直接跟我反應是說"},{"start":16922.575,"end":16922.796,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":16938.777,"end":16960.509,"text":"我跟委員報告就是對於這些宣導部分確實在我們的同仁增加很多的這些工作負擔那我覺得檢察工作就是要專責去做查集嘛那這部分我已經第上任之後就是要做精檢就精準的而已所以現在全國的我們警察都知道了嗎?全國都知道公文已經下去了那第二專案的部分"},{"start":16963.09,"end":16990.251,"text":"你剛剛有講到很多專案啊對這很像是我們之前一直質疑民進黨政府啊什麼都要搞辦公室什麼都要搞國家隊那辦公室搞了三十幾個國家隊搞了十幾個那變成是所有都是辦公室所有都是國家隊但這跌床架屋啊照理講我們中華民國政府本來就有相關的相關的業務各部會各失其職那一樣的道理啊你剛剛提到的專案"},{"start":16990.791,"end":17016.36,"text":"有什麼打詐專案、掃黑專案、防堵專案這些專案嘛對不對?那我們實際上講這些專案回過頭來這本來就是業務啊那為什麼要一個一個專案成立之後反而造成是所有的員警同仁就為了一個又一個專案好像所有的署長或說所有的上面長官覺得說我不多設幾個專案就沒有辦法凸顯我的偉大或說沒有辦法凸顯我的效率"},{"start":17017.529,"end":17041.121,"text":"蘇長現在有多少專案你可以精簡多少以及是不是可以保留真真正正讓警務同仁回歸到專業跟回歸到業務我現在的主架構就是黑金槍獨炸黑金槍獨炸這主架構那為什麼會有做精準的我就是要統合全國的力量他們盤點出來因為有一些是遊動性的"},{"start":17042.242,"end":17042.362,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":17061.633,"end":17087.246,"text":"黑金槍毒詐黑道幫派黑道幫派我是說現在原本你上任那你現在是只要限縮在這五個層面對這個治安的部分就是黑金槍毒詐這五個架構好如果說專案的話大概就會從這裡面來做做應令現在實施的這個譬如講現在全民現在大概心裡面最痛苦的就是打詐我現在所要上任的就是要打詐所以"},{"start":17088.306,"end":17116.599,"text":"我希望現在打造司法現在在院裡面希望能夠趕快通過讓我們有一個源頭從源頭來做管理源頭那邊阻止了我相信可以阻止80%的這個被受騙署長源頭管理這是本期過去也一直強調的甚至我們最近辦公室也接獲到另外一種新型態的網路詐騙以前網路詐騙是一夜市廣告對不對本辦公室最近收到一個最新型態的我也會再"},{"start":17117.719,"end":17121.241,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":17147.739,"end":17155.505,"text":"條文及法制及法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":17170.217,"end":17171.958,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":17190.808,"end":17218.901,"text":"包括有蘇發部、經管會、通常會、蘇發部還有法務部剛剛委員所講的那個源頭那個部應該都在蘇發部而且我們已經多密集在互相合作會從源頭端那邊做身份上的確認或者是在國外公司要在台灣要有這些落地的這些法律的代表人未來這個法通過之後我想應該是會有很大的助益署長你放心啦"},{"start":17219.661,"end":17236.917,"text":"該訂速發布的我一定會訂的比你更兇啦但我只要拜託署長你身為警察的大家長一定要幫我們把所有警察的權益給保障好沒問題精簡業務讓警察同仁回歸到本職這才是本職希望看到的好嗎謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝那接下來我們請吳思堯委員請進來"},{"start":17253.76,"end":17276.068,"text":"謝謝主席。想要請馬次長、張次長、李副人事長、然後署長也一起喔。既然來了,回到你們的問題,你們就主動回答。我是很想替他們爭取一下,大家連用個便餐的時間都沒有,實在太辛苦了。主席要不要等一下休息一下,讓他們用個餐。好不好,我替他們爭取一下福利。這麼多議事工作人員,大家都辛苦。好,來。"},{"start":17279.522,"end":17300.178,"text":"我想任何一個退休金的制度都是要世世代代領得到長長久久領到老任何一個退休金制度的設計都應當如此所以當我們換算到把它勢比到國家的退休金制度就應當如此嘛"},{"start":17300.999,"end":17323.09,"text":"不論誰執政基金都要永續都要穩定就是不論誰執政的歷史責任因為這都要對世世代代的公務同仁不論是軍公教警消醫護都要一致所以在2017、2018我擔任立委的第一屆"},{"start":17324.551,"end":17353.869,"text":"我真的是在面對年改的那個那種社會的一個很大的分歧但是社會在歷經了討論之後我們好不容易擁有改革的成果所以年金改革不走回頭路世代正義絕對不能開倒車下一頁照顧公務人員用數字來說實話蔡英文總統的任內是做最多的"},{"start":17355.211,"end":17369.646,"text":"條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":17372.128,"end":17385.299,"text":"最照顧公務人員我在講不論軍公教警消醫護等等我們都努力做更多做更好就以實質的條型來講這沒有錯嘛對不對次長好下一頁"},{"start":17386.755,"end":17405.223,"text":"那署長在這裡哈針對警消這幾年來我們也是努力做更多做更好四個面向對於薪資與津貼的調整不論是基層員警或是國道高速公路的員警的每月薪資跟外勤薪資都調升"},{"start":17406.724,"end":17430.992,"text":"在緊勤加擠在重要的勤務獎勵金乃至於超勤加班費我們都努力調漲嘛在薪資跟今天的調整署長我沒有說錯嘛對不對第二大面向醫療與健康保障正因為我們好不容易成立了公益信託警察醫療及照護基金我們已經補助了5945案合法了1億5"},{"start":17436.414,"end":17440.277,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":17459.389,"end":17485.822,"text":"也都努力來照顧警消。」我這四大面向的整理請問次長、署長我都沒說不對嘛所以不要因為今天對於退休警消人員的修法有過沒有過來對於不同意見的委員們冠上帽子說你沒來聽這條你就是沒照顧我們的警察人員或是消防人員我覺得這樣不對"},{"start":17487.023,"end":17497.437,"text":"我們橫憑的來看蔡英文政府停警消四大面向我們真的努力做更多做更好我覺得這個我們要很自信的對社會來論述"},{"start":17499.781,"end":17517.126,"text":"所以年改不走回頭路我是真的認為國民黨有11個版本的委員提案真的是恐怕走上倒行逆施反年改反進步摧毀我們正向的改革成果我歸納了三大理由第一個"},{"start":17518.393,"end":17542.04,"text":"大家適用同一個基金同一種繳費的基準退府的制度就應當一致這才是公平第二大理由確保基金的永續除了要擴大來照顧退休的警消人員更要兼顧現役在服務國家人民的警消人員這才是真正的正義"},{"start":17543.22,"end":17564.948,"text":"第三個這個會期我真的很遺憾一再的看到在野黨委員康國家之愷提出了違反第憲法第70條或是違反大法官釋字391號的解釋也一再的提出違反財政紀律法第五條第七條的授權立法委員不能為增加預算之決議提案"},{"start":17566.008,"end":17587.724,"text":"如果你要提升也應當載明他合理的財源或新增財源在哪裡這是立法院自己修的財政紀律法2019年新頒布的所以我這三大反對現在幾個修法版本的三大歸納的理由請問我還有沒有遺漏的"},{"start":17590.05,"end":17615.543,"text":"報告委員委員掌握的資訊非常的正確那麼我們這邊也非常同意委員對整個事情的分析好那我進入條文來論述下一頁這個是當年2017年我們在對社會論述排除萬難做到了年金改革因為連馬英九前總統都說年改今天不做明天就會後悔我們基於國人平均壽命的延長年輕人的負擔更重所以要改"},{"start":17616.323,"end":17642.711,"text":"基於各項退休基金的收支失衡破產在即所以要改基於年金的給付不一致各類人員的保障水平參差不齊所以我們要改改的一個最重要的目標就是落實世代正義這是當年的論述當年的主張我們克服萬難去做年金改革下一頁好我們來檢視有沒有達到改革的正向成果"},{"start":17644.045,"end":17660.299,"text":"提升基金的運作永續性上來看,竟然退府制度相對比較沒有破產的高度疑慮。教育人員的退休制度從原本119年可能會有破產之餘,我們因為改革了,它延後到133年。"},{"start":17662.04,"end":17673.176,"text":"公務人員退休的撫恤金的基金原本120年就可能破產我們讓他延後到135年對不對我的數字都正確嗎如果我有錯誤你們隨時反質詢沒有問題OK嗎"},{"start":17677.102,"end":17678.603,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":17696.757,"end":17719.308,"text":"對對那那是因為一二年的個人專務制所以提早到一百三十五年好現在政府也努力依法在撥補所以我們還是希望目標一百四十年好謝謝您的指正我不會覺得是反質詢你反質詢的好立委講不對你就要來更正下一個呢剛剛是基金的永續的年限第二個就是實質因為我們"},{"start":17722.219,"end":17744.356,"text":"做了改革可以挹注於基金的金額來看居然退府制度增加了633億的撥補教育人員增加了998億公務人員退休增加了803億合計我們因為年改實質的減緩政府財政壓力來有效挹注我們的退府基金高達2434億至今我的數字正確嗎還是更多來歡迎反諮詢"},{"start":17751.718,"end":17760.72,"text":"兩千六百七十四億很好二六七四億謝謝你的反質詢讓我有更新update的機會好下一頁所以來看看臺灣因為年改我們有實質的基金的永續年限以及我們基金的挹注財源剛剛到了兩千六百七十四億嘛很好"},{"start":17778.763,"end":17795.689,"text":"即便我們改了,我們砍了部分的退休金但是實質上跟國際比一比臺灣的實質所得替代率仍遠高於OECD國家的平均我這是2022年OECD國家的平均的所得替代率是61.4%但是臺灣以2022年的所得替代率年改之後的已經砍了"},{"start":17803.071,"end":17817.509,"text":"還是高達69.23%我們高於OECD國家8%代表臺灣的退休公務人員政府想方設法照顧退休公務人員比國際都還努力做更多。"},{"start":17818.581,"end":17838.412,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法"},{"start":17847.779,"end":17867.495,"text":"公務人員之間的不公平。」下一頁因為現在他如果停了而且甚至增加他的所得替代率會增加我們的退府支出減少收入所以年長連改一場空加速基金被掏空跟破產在野黨能負責嗎我今天很謝謝看到我們全序部的最新資料是說"},{"start":17868.135,"end":17883.899,"text":"如果提高了這個修法過了的話平均以35年的年資來計的話只要10到15年後每年增加20億20到29年後增加每年40億30年後每年增加60億對不對這就是加速我們的破產的可能嘛Right歡迎反諮詢"},{"start":17891.158,"end":17915.284,"text":"報委員,剛才黃國昌委員有希望我們再做精算。在我們昨天晚上也連夜就我們現在可以去做推估。原來我們講的每年15億的那個減少挹注的部分,如果用50年精算跟他現在警消站的這個挹注的比例在23%,這樣算下來50年"},{"start":17919.205,"end":17925.85,"text":"這個差距會是1080億1080億1080億這50年的天哪那趕快把這個正確數字送達到每一個委員手下1080億天哪這是多大的一個破口"},{"start":17939.199,"end":17939.9,"text":"一）委員我還發現一個問題"},{"start":17955.198,"end":17982.749,"text":"現在呢修法的版本要把原本是用公務人員退休之前撫恤法的這個抽出用警察人員人事條例來訂定但是他提高了這個所得替代率到95或90但是連同每年十年要累累減的那個反而沒有放進來對不對所以這個是法律只抄半套這是另外一個不公平不正義我要提出來再下一個"},{"start":17983.789,"end":17990.755,"text":"而我看到我們原本的退休金彈性調整的機制原本就已經入法了。針對消費者物價指數累計成長率達政府百分之五的時候每四年要引以檢討來擴大我們配合物價定期檢討保障退休人員生活需要的權益。原本的配套改革"},{"start":18001.503,"end":18007.728,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":18026.661,"end":18043.895,"text":"如果剛剛講的50年就要增加1080億天哪如果年金破產了在野黨能負責嗎提案的委員能負責嗎所以我再次論述三大反對的理由同意基金同意繳費標準退府的制度應當一致才是公平"},{"start":18044.435,"end":18053.099,"text":"我們要確保基金有序不只要照顧退休的警校更要兼顧現役的警校這才是真正的正義最後一項不要再提這種違反憲法違反財政紀律法的法案了這是會拖垮國家的財政制度跟法律的秩序謝謝我們繼續努力我們持續論述"},{"start":18066.425,"end":18089.137,"text":"也許我們是少數也許會被強行通過但是社會面的論述我們絕對不能放棄我相信社會大眾是站在爭理站在公平正義的一方大家加油謝謝謝主席謝謝委員接下來我們請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員下一位我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":18101.122,"end":18127.653,"text":"謝謝主席,楊全發言,邀請署長。你看到今天所有藍綠白委員的這個發言,以及社會大眾的一個聲音,你心裡做何感想?每個委員的發言我都尊重,尊重委員的發言。"},{"start":18129.855,"end":18135.176,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三三十五條條文修正草案案 案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等27人擬具"},{"start":18151.941,"end":18152.841,"text":"草案案件事條例〈警察人員人事條例〉"},{"start":18179.557,"end":18204.477,"text":"努力了22年才將他的息率上限定在一萬九千元。如果以物價指數的一個調漲通膨的調漲這一萬九千元幾乎幾乎等於是沒漲是不是啊是不是如果說以現在的這個物價的狀況大概就是橫平了"},{"start":18205.87,"end":18211.114,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":18220.592,"end":18227.256,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第11會期"},{"start":18249.191,"end":18268.646,"text":"當時我們在努力爭取這個抄警津貼的時候經過了22年都沒有條22年之後才上線上線喔還不是你每一個人都拿得到的一萬九千元就如剛剛署長你所說的如果以目前的通膨它等於是平盤啊"},{"start":18270.114,"end":18274.337,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":18285.285,"end":18293.288,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例修正條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":18310.731,"end":18331.269,"text":"本席就用這一點,22年這抄情津貼出生入死。22年終於讓政府看到上線抄情津貼就只有一萬九。所以我第三次說,如果以目前這個狀況,它等於是沒有加錢。我要請社會大眾看到"},{"start":18335.1,"end":18336.941,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條"},{"start":18361.243,"end":18361.424,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":18368.157,"end":18383.724,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":18398.459,"end":18398.941,"text":"都會被引誘。」"},{"start":18400.506,"end":18401.606,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":18429.206,"end":18430.306,"text":"五條條例修正三草案案"},{"start":18447.858,"end":18466.694,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制"},{"start":18474.181,"end":18477.523,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":18500.254,"end":18514.702,"text":"我希望新任的署長您有所作為您去盤點因為快要到了暑假您去盤點方案要怎麼做說明資料詳細給本席我們一定要保護這些孩子好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝楊委員下一位我們請陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":18534.158,"end":18535.499,"text":"警察人員人事條例修正草案"},{"start":18556.872,"end":18557.512,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":18579.484,"end":18602.944,"text":"最近我們看到消防員在職期間的裝備和保障,他尚未有得到應該的標準。比如說2023年的屏東大火導致4名消防員殉職,上個月底新竹豪宅的大火,這裡面是沒有住民受傷或死亡,但是兩位消防弟兄卻殉職了。"},{"start":18603.504,"end":18603.624,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":18621.452,"end":18625.258,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":18638.976,"end":18640.237,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":18664.813,"end":18692.79,"text":"所以提升的這個裝備的標準還有這個完善的訓練的計劃甚至是心理健康的支持比如說我們剛剛提到的這些警消人員那他們的弟兄那因為很不幸的事故去世之後那怎麼樣對他們的家族遺族或者是他們的同事提供資源那這也是需要經費的那這不是只有一個部門不是警政署也不是只有內政部甚至衛福部都要提供介入所以我還是在強調齁"},{"start":18694.431,"end":18710.798,"text":"這不僅僅是對警察人員在職人員的個人權益的保障他是對整個社會的長期投資那如果我們要思考到整個社會的長期投資的話那是不是方方面面都必須要納入考量而不是只有退職人員而已還有限職的人員不知道這個部分"},{"start":18711.678,"end":18711.918,"text":"二）委員楊輝署長"},{"start":18741.898,"end":18745.22,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":18757.148,"end":18761.87,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11"},{"start":18779.355,"end":18781.276,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":18807.631,"end":18807.771,"text":"二）委員馬瑪次長"},{"start":18820.888,"end":18839.846,"text":"委員好 次長好 那次長過去在學術界的時候應該是常去美國的一些疾難相關的特別是疾難救助相關的這些部門來去取經 那想說次長現在就任之後是不是有相關的規劃讓我們的警消人員特別是消防人員能夠有更完整的這樣子的訓練"},{"start":18841.247,"end":18862.806,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前採取兩個方式一個就是說我們有持續邀請美國的教官到台灣來針對我們現在警消在戰技戰術上面的一些訓練那在進行那這個部分在消防署的訓練中心跟警政署都有在進行那第二塊就是說我們有安排到美國的包括他們的消防單位"},{"start":18863.607,"end":18865.309,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":18879.281,"end":18905.775,"text":"我們這個部分細節部分可能我們會後跟我沒關係我會後再講但是我是希望說他能夠制度化那他能夠再擴大因為現在包含我看到我們的國防部門還有我們的這一個內政那都有進去美國來做完整的訓練那我們希望在消防的部分除了美國的教練來台之外我是希望說能夠有更多這樣子的做法那這個量能都要把它加大好的謝謝謝謝委員支持"},{"start":18911.393,"end":18932.639,"text":"接下來請謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、鄭鄭泉委員、鄭鄭泉委員、鄭鄭泉委員、陳英委員、陳英委員、陳英委員、傅坤祺委員、傅坤祺委員、傅坤祺委員"},{"start":18934.486,"end":18947.9,"text":"所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢,詢答結束。委員質詢時有要求提供的相關資料或已書面答覆者,請相關機關請速送交個別委員跟本聯席會。"},{"start":18949.793,"end":18972.764,"text":"那委員楊耀李燕秀所提書面質詢列入紀錄貪婪公報並且相關機關以書面答覆那我們現在先進行討論事項我們先請議事人員提案宣讀提案條文那宣讀時間大約為7分鐘那之後我們留20分鐘讓各位用餐"},{"start":18976.777,"end":18996.746,"text":"對因為都聽到現在謝謝謝謝謝謝幾位委員的體諒好那我們休息後就是宣讀時間7分鐘然後我們20分鐘讓大家用餐宣讀後我們就對對對對對宣讀時間都可以好那所以我們這樣算一下2點2點15"},{"start":19010.254,"end":19030.918,"text":"警察人員人事條例委員鄭天才等提案第7條除序文中如左修正為如下外其餘未修正。第10條除第一項序文中左列修正為下列外其餘未修正。第11條及第12條除第一項序文中如左均修正為如下外其餘均未修正。"},{"start":19031.898,"end":19049.368,"text":"第15條除序文中左列修正為下列外其餘未修正。第16條、第21條、第23條及第34條除序文中如左均修正為如下外其餘均未修正。委員蘇清泉等提案第35條"},{"start":19050.905,"end":19068.53,"text":"除將第一項續文第一款及第二款條文中公務人員退休法均修正為公務人員退休之前撫恤法令增訂第四款及第五款為四警察消防及海巡人員之每月"},{"start":19069.17,"end":19082.247,"text":"退休所得其所得替代率依本條例之規定辦理如附表三其服務年資滿15年者替代率為45%其後每增加一年替代率增給2%"},{"start":19084.309,"end":19109,"text":"最高採記40年並以90%為上限五．本法公布施行前退休生效者應按本法公布施行實現值同等級人員之待遇標準重新計算每月退休所得並隨在值同等級人員本年供奉之調整而調整令附表三如後付其餘未修正"},{"start":19110.472,"end":19131.188,"text":"委員萬美玲等提案第三十五條對照委員蘇清泉等提案,除第一項第四款手具修正為警察人員之每月退休所得,另附表三如後附其餘同委員蘇清泉等提案,委員謝龍介等提案第三十五條對照委員蘇清泉等提案,除第一項序文中左列修正為下列,"},{"start":19131.969,"end":19153.958,"text":"第四款條文中如附表三修正為附表三如字刪除,莫具中百分之九十修正為百分之九十五。第五款條文中本法均修正為本條例,第二句莫每月退休所得分號修正為月退休所得逗號,另附表三如後附其餘同委員蘇清泉等提案。"},{"start":19154.818,"end":19167.08,"text":"委員王宏輝等29人提案第三十五條對照委員蘇清泉等提案,除序文中所列修正為下列,附表三如後附外其餘通委員蘇清泉等提案。"},{"start":19169.52,"end":19185.896,"text":"委員丁學忠等提案第三十五條對照委員王洪威等29人提案,除第一項第四款前二具合併修正為警察人員之月退休所得替代率照附表三所定替代率計算,末具中90%修正為95%。"},{"start":19188.999,"end":19199.742,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":19216.027,"end":19220.643,"text":"另附表三如後附其餘同委王宏威等29人提案。"},{"start":19222.796,"end":19248.794,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案第三十五條同委員謝龍介等提案附表三如後附．委員林思明等提案第三十五條對照委員王宏威等29人提案除第1項第4款手具修正為警察消防及海岸巡防機關之警察人員之每月退休所得第二句末如附表三修正為附表三如字刪除"},{"start":19249.895,"end":19274.27,"text":"第五款條文中本法均修正為本條例另附表三如後附其餘同委員王洪威等29人提案。委員吳立華等提案第35條除第一項序文中左列修正為下列第一款及第二款條文中公務人員退休法均修正為公務人員退休之前輔續法其餘未修正"},{"start":19275.251,"end":19294.263,"text":"委員王宏威等18人提案對照委員王宏威等29人提案除第一項第四款手具修正為警察、消防、海巡、移民及空中勤務總隊人員之每月退休所得另附表三如後附七日通委員王宏威等29人提案"},{"start":19295.323,"end":19311.617,"text":"委員遊浩等提案第三十五條對照委員王宏威等29人提案,除第一項第四款手具修正為警察人員及消防海巡移民機關支領危險職務加給人員之每月退休所得。"},{"start":19312.498,"end":19328.013,"text":"第五款首具具首的本法公佈修正為前款人員與本條例修正第二具中的本法公佈修正為本條例修正訂附表三如後附其餘同委員王洪威等29人提案"},{"start":19329.114,"end":19355.035,"text":"委員張志倫等提案第三十五條對照委員王宏威等29人提案除第一項第四款手具修正為警察消防海巡及移民人員之每月退休所得第五款條文中本法均修正為本條例另附表三如後附其御同委員王宏威等29人提案。委員鄭天才等提案第三十六條"},{"start":19356.519,"end":19372.18,"text":"除第一項續文中左列修正為下列公務人員復續法修正為公務人員退休之前復續法外其餘未修正（委員吳麗華等提案第36條同委員鄭天才等提案宣讀完畢。"},{"start":21149.597,"end":21176.692,"text":"提案條文已經宣讀完畢（現在進行討論事項（併案審查委員蘇清泉等27人擬具警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案等12案。本案業經上午巡打各委員我們是否仍需要進行大體討論?請大家表示意見。"},{"start":21180.424,"end":21180.524,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":21186.764,"end":21188.405,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條"},{"start":21212.573,"end":21236.885,"text":"條文及其他退休後的其他公務員在平均移民的部分是不是在統計上有顯著差別?能不能請哪一位幫我們做一個說明一下?來請先機關好請說明好謝謝張偉謝謝各位委員那這個平均移民的部分喔因為之前這個"},{"start":21239.755,"end":21242.557,"text":"二）委員佑裕蘭等19人擬具〈警察人員事條例修正三草案案〉案。"},{"start":21265.512,"end":21270.194,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．一）委員"},{"start":21286.923,"end":21310.555,"text":"其實沒有什麼太大的差別就是目前的我們的資料的顯示是這樣那一般公務員這個平均餘命會比警察人員稍微稍微長一點大概多一點多歲大概多一點多歲請問是在職期間的還是退休後的是退休後的因為他的風險就是在在職期間"},{"start":21312.386,"end":21336.253,"text":"所以的確警察消防人員在職人員以在職人員作為一個統計所以我們早上也一直報告說在職期間他真的是他的風險因素都是在在職期間退休後就跟其他公務員沒有顯出差異跟全國人民的平均移民也沒有顯出差異對沒有顯出差異好謝謝這個資料我們如果委員會需要的話我們可以再送過來"},{"start":21337.073,"end":21340.514,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例修正三草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":21367.621,"end":21389.082,"text":"首先我開始,總共有排序有九,主要是文字的修正。那我們現在開始審查排序一的第七條,請問各位就第七條的部分有無意見?都是文字,看大家有沒有...一個如左可能如下嘛。"},{"start":21390.882,"end":21392.504,"text":"第10條請問各位委員有沒有異議?"},{"start":21409.104,"end":21435.099,"text":"好沒有我們就招案通過那排序三第十一條請問各位委員有無異議沒有好那就招案通過排序四第十二條請問各位委員有沒有異議沒有好沒有就招案通過排序五第十五條請問各位委員有沒有異議沒有好沒有就招案通過那排序六第十六條請問各位委員有沒有異議沒有"},{"start":21436.581,"end":21457.182,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":21465.15,"end":21479.559,"text":"接下來我們審查排序10第35條及增訂附表三提案人有蘇清泉委員等27人提案委員萬美玲等19人提案"},{"start":21480.419,"end":21489.546,"text":"委員謝龍介等19人擬具委員王宏威等29人擬具委員丁學忠等17人擬具委員顏寬恆等20人擬具委員鄭天才等18人擬具委員林詩敏等23人擬具"},{"start":21496.832,"end":21512.396,"text":"委員吳立華等16人提案。委員王宏威等18人提案。委員游浩等38人提案。委員張志倫等17人提案。請問各位委員就本條文有無意見要補充?無效委員"},{"start":21516.448,"end":21519.689,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":21533.592,"end":21560.509,"text":"草案案的上限是定為95%然後另外的九個版本是定90%那這些版本對於這個所得地貸率的提高那其實都是溢出了原本我們在年改時候的這個定的上限那也經過財務的試算如果我剛剛早上從這個權序部得到一個最新的訊息就是說如果"},{"start":21562.13,"end":21588.929,"text":"這個照這個版本修了的話五十年內會減少對於退府基金的挹注高達1080億所以這個在財源上我們希望他是一個永續的基金能夠真正的來照顧各個世代的警消人員所以照顧退休的警消人員已經含困在上一次的年改裡頭那我們依依非常充分的討論而達到上一次年改的成果這幾年來"},{"start":21590.57,"end":21606.389,"text":"確實因為年改的上路那有效的挹注了基金的破口也有效的去延展了基金永續的年限所以已經看到一個改革的正向的目標所以基於一個公正基於一個正義"},{"start":21607.31,"end":21620.123,"text":"也對於其他的公務人員大家橫平性的思考所以我是認為這個三十五條的條文裡頭我都個人是希望能夠來維持原來的條文這是我的意見謝謝"},{"start":21626.107,"end":21650.541,"text":"一條其實我早上質詢的時候也有提出來那我認為有幾個很重要的啦就是我們現在提案要增加這個基金的支出但是這個基金的財務評估到底是如何我認為詮訊部還是要給一個非常明確的說明如果可以的話等一下希望請詮訊部再補充說明這個像是剛剛司法委員說的你們的數字如果是說接下來50年要增加1080億那"},{"start":21654.323,"end":21677.823,"text":"對那這個會真的是滋事體大那我認為這個其實年金改革走到現在一直都是大家對於世代正義應該是要有共識的那這樣子的修法下去造成的影響跟衝擊是不是也請全市部再次的說明是不是如果早上質詢的時候說的包括其他的危勞的人員是不是要一起討論"},{"start":21678.604,"end":21695.558,"text":"以及對於現職的警察還有其他類型的公務人員是不是有衝擊?尤其是2023年7月以後調整為個人專務制的最新的年輕的警察是不是反而沒有照顧到他們了呢?"},{"start":21696.298,"end":21706.083,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":21716.207,"end":21735.408,"text":"所得替代率的上限,就是如果只修一半的話那這個單獨修過去是不是也沒有太大的意義呢那我最後還是想要補充一下啦就是我認為最重要還是世代正義對於現值的這些警消人員我們希望給予他們最大的保障那權益一定要越來越好"},{"start":21736.209,"end":21756.259,"text":"那一定要照顧到世代正義而不是說我們在這邊把這個水庫開了一個洞之後變成影響到其他類型的公務人員以及現職的年輕警察的權益希望可以大家再平衡來做思考以上謝謝謝謝黃婕委員那我們是否請全序部先就黃婕委員剛剛的問題說明"},{"start":21760.017,"end":21781.734,"text":"謝謝章偉、謝謝各位委員我們早上報告的大概是這個是我們以現有能力做初估的一個狀態所以早上黃國昌委員希望說我們能夠再做精算不過精算還涉及這個精算要有時間我們過去精算大概都半年的時間"},{"start":21783.115,"end":21787.118,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及"},{"start":21805.171,"end":21805.331,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":21821.767,"end":21845.718,"text":"警察人員他現在這個挹注的經費就是占全體公務人員大概23%他人數大概占21%他挹注經費的比例大概23%那如果用50年的精算這樣算下來是50年會有1080億這是我們粗估當然這個精算也更精確"},{"start":21847.659,"end":21853.763,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":21869.654,"end":21892.819,"text":"用近三年平均因為現在警察退休的人數其實很穩定大概每一年大概都在大概平均差不多1600人左右就是每一年的退休警察的人數大概差不多1600人左右然後他我們如果用這個56歲然後他的平均餘命就我們剛才報告的那個資料29年"},{"start":21895.92,"end":21898.701,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":21915.31,"end":21942.929,"text":"第十到第十九年,他是累加的,是會越來越多,就是十到十九年是每年大概二十億,二十到二十九年每年大概要增加四十億,那未來第三十年以後大概每年大概會超過六十億,在目前這是我們初估的數字,那當然精算會更精確,以上跟各位委員報告。好,那個黃介委員他剛回答這樣可以嗎?可以,好,那我們接下來請謝龍介委員發言。"},{"start":21952.167,"end":21968.019,"text":"說實話,平均五十六個退休,移民還有二十九宗,那他們都要吃到八十五,平均有八十五個,你少到六成,那警察聽到大家都在吼,在撈白菜。"},{"start":21970.635,"end":21970.715,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":21993.686,"end":21993.886,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22020.689,"end":22021.649,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":22050.111,"end":22051.592,"text":"平均一檔二十億啦!一檔二十億啦!中華民國有算這八檔給八千幾億啦!對不對?是不是這樣?一檔二十億你說五十檔要差一千塊八十億你就要我們聽說一千塊八十億很多!不可以喔!不要這樣討論事情嘛!我們可以理性一檔多少、十檔多少"},{"start":22078.357,"end":22085.08,"text":"整個大水庫多,有同工同酬嗎?慢慢地蓋,這蓋了後面要照顧的人很多,專門大家都慶賀,很好,有時請我的帝國,吃撈,不然還可以請一個外國來購,不是說給他們大魚大肉。"},{"start":22103.43,"end":22113.68,"text":"人奉獻幾十年的過程中,他們不是特別辛苦我提案這要做嗎?他們說就像你們一樣朝九晚五每天在那裡找你們去,我給提案要做嗎?不是說你們都沒辛苦啊,大家都很辛苦。這裡的立委在這裡也沒有負責任,他們也很辛苦,不然我們會當警員。"},{"start":22130.818,"end":22149.093,"text":"這不用你證實啦 大家都知道啦討論這是給你精神 不過說給你精神 我也不反對啊精神要大家看到 都可以討論 所有理都可以說嘛你天然的用這個 你用這樣我就聽不下去了如果是說五十年啦 會差一千萬八十億"},{"start":22159.721,"end":22166.525,"text":"二）委員各位市長,如果聽說五十年差一千塊,一年差二十,比較沒有二十二億。一年差四十億,一千塊八十億,五十年二十億,就要好一千億。對不對?還有二十一億。你想想,有什麼行動跟碰到?"},{"start":22184.383,"end":22189.604,"text":"就是我們經濟在生長,執政黨給我們說白天每天都在生長都賺那麼多錢啊!啊你不可以這樣,以前當時在年紀的時候有可能不知道說我們的經濟在白天的生長這麼多啊!啊今天在生長這麼多,回頭來看說這違背這個信賴保護原則的,跟東西是不是切了太快,反倒提案是給你縮刻一個啊!"},{"start":22213.066,"end":22213.226,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22236.073,"end":22237.695,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":22251.616,"end":22272.016,"text":"法上是規定說到第五年要檢討那現在我們也檢討過檢討過之後呢我們也已經確定每一五年都會檢討啦所以這個整個財務上因為每三年就要精算一次嘛那精算的結果就我們就會照這個現在法的機制會去做檢討啦不是說定了以後就一定都沒去檢討啦"},{"start":22273.277,"end":22300.26,"text":"市長那這部分就麻煩你就依照那個委員還有黃國昌委員的意思就把對資金算的資料補過來那當然我早上聽到你講那個一千多億五十年未決案我是有點聽不下去那你不講一百年加上CPI然後三百三千億好了講那個沒有意思啦那接下來我們請那個莊委員因為他先舉手有莊委員發言謝謝謝謝市長還有各位同仁列席的官員我想我在這個地方啊"},{"start":22303.773,"end":22322.965,"text":"感情上我就不去再贅述了我想直接請教我們詮釋部大家現在在談說精算這是好事那以現在這個在黨朋友提出來這些版本來看的話是不是可以請問就是我們退府基金你從113年度這樣開始的話"},{"start":22327.048,"end":22327.088,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22349.81,"end":22365.493,"text":"如果說以我們現在看的第三十五條這樣來看的話我倒也發現一個問題啦你現在比如說我們今天整個警察人員這樣的一個人事條例這樣一通過以後它就變成一個特別法囉對不對那也就是說跟其他公務人員適用的版本又不一樣囉"},{"start":22373.857,"end":22397.391,"text":"那你整個退府制度你不覺得這樣子很奇怪嗎是不是把這個一順便講清楚精算的部分本來要修法你沒有把它你整個基金像我早上提過的你說繳費的標準大家都不變那你你這樣一把它一拉高以後那會變成"},{"start":22399.395,"end":22424.915,"text":"會不會讓外界會嘩然啊你像變成退役人員你就跟限職人員就又回復到等於年改前請一併答覆好那請先機關這邊做說明收支不足的話大概一百二十二左右這是比較新的警方一百二十二會收支不足那他沒答覆後"},{"start":22426.328,"end":22427.85,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":22441.38,"end":22458.924,"text":"警消當然剛剛有跟各位報告過嘛因為還沒有精算嘛那我們就講整體公務員的部分那我們現在最新的這個還出稿嘛還沒有這個還出稿我們最近一次的精算就是收支不足的年度會在122年然後這個用慶的年度會在134年"},{"start":22465.441,"end":22466.862,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":22490.535,"end":22491.656,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":22513.959,"end":22519.146,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":22526.749,"end":22526.789,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22552.102,"end":22552.482,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":22579.526,"end":22579.966,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":22608.936,"end":22608.976,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22630.776,"end":22631.616,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":22659.545,"end":22660.106,"text":"二）委員張秋遠等19人擬具"},{"start":22679.887,"end":22695.262,"text":"都是用本奉的兩倍來提繳基金。」這是一個公平的設計,就是你在此的時候繳多少錢。繳費的義務跟後面領取的權利,它是對等的。"},{"start":22695.919,"end":22696.059,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22722.387,"end":22740.265,"text":"如果把他變動某一部分的人不管是對其他的公務員還是對其他叫委老因為委老不是只有警察人員所以其他委老的人那還有一部分的人可能他還沒有報委老但是譬如像情報工作人員他還沒有報委老"},{"start":22741.505,"end":22741.946,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":22764.477,"end":22792.595,"text":"市長還是一樣就是麻煩你把精算的資料給大家那我想說這個是各位委員很需要那另外我也跟市長補充一個點我自己也是公務員出身除了本鳳之外還有超勤加緊專業加緊勤務津貼這些跟限職跟非限職本來就有一個差距你不要在那邊亂講說兩個什麼都一樣95%你不要去騙大家都公務員出身的不要講這種話好那下一位請羅志強委員發言然後蘇委員下一位"},{"start":22796.745,"end":22821.085,"text":"來一邊就好好說話那羅委員今天的現役警察就是明天的退休警察今天的退休警察就是昨天的現役警察我剛剛聽了很多一定要把現役跟退休做一個好像對立感的劃分我就是笑話一場抱歉我不客氣的講"},{"start":22823.254,"end":22848.03,"text":"我剛剛從這個中心大樓走過來這邊開會一路上就很多的警察同仁跟我說一聲謝謝我說你不要謝我是我謝謝你這些警察同仁都是現役的同仁他們未來都會變成退休的警察不然他為什麼今天對這個 因為他早上看了直播嘛"},{"start":22849.684,"end":22874.653,"text":"可是今天你一定要把現役跟退休做某種的對立出來那我告訴你這一個角度我是保持很大的意見第二個一年二十億就二十億就講清楚你一定要講說五十年一千億你不乾脆講五百年好了對不對五百年那就一兆啊不講得更恐怖一點"},{"start":22877.008,"end":22894.844,"text":"那你就是把實際上一年二十億講出來嘛那接下來我也要講,剛剛龍介兄也講了啊我在馬政府工作過啊那時候一年的預算政府預算這個一兆八一兆七左右去年請問我們這個年度的預算多少兩兆八啊政府花錢也沒有在手軟啊不過這也不是重點"},{"start":22902.915,"end":22920.356,"text":"重點是什麼?台電一年虧損四千多億你就撥補啊我要講說政府今天真的說你每個錢都用在刀口之上你就知道我們的錢都用在刀口上所以你今天退休的警察退休消防人員你們就單帶點吧是嗎?"},{"start":22924.06,"end":22947.714,"text":"我剛剛為什麼一直我們在追能源政策能源政策就是一個最大的浪費嘛先不講缺電問題你講不承認缺電沒關係他就是要浪費啊我還沒講超市我還沒講高端我還沒講快篩小吃店種種的浪費你跟我講一年二十億那還有再講下去嗎何沛山勞動部長怎麼講他遇到勞保就是撥補就是改革啊"},{"start":22949.104,"end":22968.913,"text":"二）委員老保也有破產問題也有虧損問題但他的撥補就是改革奇怪了到這邊今天就跟我講說我們的警察的同仁我們的消防的同仁我們所有的海巡的同仁空總的同仁移民署的同仁你們通通都擔待一點"},{"start":22971.141,"end":22971.321,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22986.172,"end":22986.812,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":23002.299,"end":23028.068,"text":"被年改之刀砍上的人,到底砍的是對的?過重的?還是過輕的?這就今天我們在這邊要來開始討論的一件事情我還是要講啦,我知道全序部的立場,我不會怪你啦全序部有這個立場,這是正常的但我也就跟今天早上跟次長講嘛你的臉不要看著羅志強,眼睛不要看著羅志強你轉身看看後面那五個署長"},{"start":23029.847,"end":23056.041,"text":"這五個署長在講什麼我今天質詢第一個把五個署長叫上來問通通都支持為什麼他們代表的就是什麼他們代表就背後警察、消防、空總、移民跟海巡弟兄的心聲嘛那不要說今天我們看到警察、消防人員在看為我們的安全的時候甚至發生遺憾的時候我們大家都很遺憾在那邊去哀悼"},{"start":23057.403,"end":23073.255,"text":"然後今天公祭明天忘記但是遇到今天我們該給他應得我講是應得的喔應得就像今天我遇到警察的朋友跟我說謝謝我說你不要謝我啦是我要謝謝你啦真的是我要謝謝你們啦"},{"start":23074.855,"end":23075.275,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":23101.567,"end":23109.636,"text":"但是應該對我們的危險的前線的這些警消所有的同仁保持一個開放的心以上"},{"start":23111.021,"end":23136.643,"text":"好謝謝那我們下一位請蘇委員好謝謝主席那也謝謝在場所有同仁和政府部門人員大家都認真來討論這個議題我想其實社會上各行各業都有自己的職責也有自己的專長像警消就是保護著我們社會上每一個人的安全那立法委員呢就是本於職責在立法院這個國會最高殿堂用言語"},{"start":23137.484,"end":23159.433,"text":"我講的是真正的言語而不是肢體語言用言語來把立場互相論辯說明向全國人民報告之後爭取多數的支持所以不管你是要用論說文也好不管你是要用抒情文也好其實我想在立法院裡面113個委員每個人都是各種高手你要煽動情緒也可以你要論理說法我想每個人也都做得到"},{"start":23167.156,"end":23170.038,"text":"所以我想我們都同意了我們今天在討論的這一個法條它牽涉到了相當多社會上重要的人士也牽涉到了非常多世代不同所享有權益不同所以每個面向方方面面都要顧及到"},{"start":23186.127,"end":23195.155,"text":"因為我們也想走出去的時候我們是看到辛苦的警察辛苦的消防人員我可以跟他說一聲謝謝但是他也會跟我說一聲委員你在國會表現真的很好幫我守住了權益"},{"start":23202.802,"end":23225.617,"text":"也為國家整體的紀律守住了這一份秩序。」我想立法委員不是只有顧一個群體他顧的是國家面向所以我是國家的國會議員今天我們在這裡為難的就是這樣不然說真的任何一個人在座不管是立法委員或者是助理、議事人員、政府官員誰聽到為自己加薪減稅增福利誰不會拍手"},{"start":23230.373,"end":23239.918,"text":"加薪減稅增幅力每個人都想要啊我也是立法委員我也是一個職業我也只是零分薪水在這裡工作的人幫我加薪幫我減稅幫我增幅力難道不好嗎當然都好可是最後總要有一群人為每一個群體加起來的總狀況做一個把關和平衡所以我覺得剛剛有委員說得很好啊大水庫我感覺很對的啊來啦還記得要怎麼說現在水修"},{"start":23260.009,"end":23260.209,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":23280.911,"end":23281.111,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":23296.983,"end":23298.004,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":23314.045,"end":23319.61,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例三草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":23343.459,"end":23360.744,"text":"好謝謝主席那過去這個年改我相信這是多數民眾所期待的那當時也是經過立法院這個討論後才修正的那我們今天看到這第35條相關內容的再修正"},{"start":23362.079,"end":23378.491,"text":"或許我們照顧軍警消的部分這是政府當務之急也是責無旁貸必須要去做的一個重要的課題可是我相信每一個族群"},{"start":23380.325,"end":23399.639,"text":"身為一個政府應該都是要面面俱到才對那在這幾年齁我們台灣能夠在世界上呈現強而有力的這個經濟力尤其在疫情期間表現更是不俗這也可以講是台灣的一個另類的經濟奇蹟可是"},{"start":23403.568,"end":23428.307,"text":"現在可以這樣不代表說未來每一年都會是呈現這麼好的一個經濟狀況當然這麼好的經濟狀況一定是我們國人都是期待的可是這是未知數那所以我認為說我們在預算的這個蓋抓的時候應該是要有一個基準點既然這個年改大家能夠這個"},{"start":23431.52,"end":23450.789,"text":"改到現在應該是多數人在不能接受的情況下也都應該都已經接受了那你如果貿然的在對於這個條文再去做修正導致我們財政的狀況在這個額外的付出之後未來會不會因為"},{"start":23451.749,"end":23453.69,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":23470.707,"end":23495.629,"text":"這個他們應得的權益要永續我相信這也是我們立法院應該要做到的所以對於這個條文我希望說我們還是能夠三思因為這個簽一法動全身知識體大那對於每一個族群應該是要面面俱到比較好啦以上好謝謝那剛中委員先舉手是請中召委"},{"start":23496.787,"end":23520.924,"text":"好謝謝今天非常感謝我看到鄭天才委員的提案當中在我們前面大概12個條次的修正呢都是多虧鄭天才委員將裡面的文字做一個修訂那接下來從35條開始我們看到幾乎每一個委員的提案當中都有做一個文字上的修正就是將原條文的公務人員退休法改為公務人員退休資權撫恤法"},{"start":23522.705,"end":23551.311,"text":"那我們從這三十五條規定可以看得出來其實三十五條的核心就是以適用公務人員退休之前撫恤法之外我們在警察人員條例當中警察人員人事條例當中額外給予警察人員加強的我想這一點先續明三十五條的本意就是在有關於退休撫恤的事務上應該先以公務人員退休之前撫恤法為準那這當中呢我們在對警務人員加了三款"},{"start":23552.051,"end":23566.849,"text":"第一他的退休年齡可以作以降低第二他在執行勤務當中因為受到暴力或等等不堪勝任而必須退休的命令退休的他的因工傷病的給予他另外給他加以激訴"},{"start":23567.89,"end":23589.343,"text":"最後對於帶有勳章、獎章還加發給退休金。我想這原來三十五條原來這三項的規定其實呢那三款的規定他就要彰顯出警察人員他在所有的公文當中他有他的特殊性但是我們不要忘了今天我們後續其他委員每一個版本的條文他去調整的是什麼"},{"start":23590.223,"end":23617.856,"text":"調整的是退休後的所得替代率而這個所得替代率是在新制的公務人員退休之前撫恤法當中第37條跟38條這37條38條是所有的含警察人員消防人員在內所有人員一體適用的這裡面寫得很清楚他的所得的替代率以及他的所繳的給付標準以及他的費率大家都是一視同仁公平的去計算"},{"start":23618.576,"end":23639.52,"text":"所以如果大家真的覺得在經過精算之後我們特別針對警察人員要有別於其他的公務人員之外給予超過三十五條原條文當中那三款包括退休年齡提早包括說他的工商標準給予加發甚至坐在領有勳章的人得加發退休金等"},{"start":23639.94,"end":23643.004,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":23657.043,"end":23657.344,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案 案。"},{"start":23673.667,"end":23702.124,"text":"甚至擴及到包括海巡啊包括移民啊空勤等人員他們真的有在退休的前跟退休後他們有別於其他公務人員有需要額外照顧的我們把這個精算的金額拿出來然後呢回歸到我們就是之前年改後所重新新制的公務人員退休之前撫恤法當中的37條跟38條再來做更周延的規定這是以上本行的對於本次修法所給的一些意見"},{"start":23703.012,"end":23728.56,"text":"好那接下來我們請那個謝龍介委員當然要補充主席我建議那個處長他喔在下禮拜五以前把改算的資料送進來喔改算的資料其實大家手裡手裡都有啦你拿一份新的改算資料進來喔這以上跟本委員會建議"},{"start":23736.366,"end":23747.152,"text":"報告召委,我們剛才在討論的就是我們現在只能用概算的數字,但是我們沒辦法是用專業的精算去做出來,因為那個要時間。"},{"start":23750.743,"end":23773.13,"text":"我請他改算資料,我叫你整算,你整算你還要發包還要歸我,其實你內部中年依賴就都有了嘛,你找他管,你說我還好對不對?市長,我講群聚部那邊應該有一些相關的資料,那你們盡量把蓋算的資料補過來好不好?"},{"start":23782.529,"end":23787.166,"text":"審委員發言主席各位同仁"},{"start":23788.706,"end":23815.698,"text":"今天一整天我想在這個從巡達到現在這個大體討論大家有都有很多我想都有幾個共識第一個就是大家對於警察人員的辛勞、辛苦這個共識我想這個都有那也認為說應該要改善警察不管是現在的待遇或者是他們退休後的這個待遇這個大家都有共識這個也"},{"start":23817.619,"end":23818.6,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":23829.996,"end":23846.903,"text":"這不管主張要修法就今天要修法或是對於修法現在有疑慮的雙方大家都一樣就跟剛剛謝龍介委員所講的趕快就是不要說沒有精算連概算都沒有那沒有概算這個要在今天這樣子通過我想這個是"},{"start":23848.143,"end":23853.287,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":23872.142,"end":23893.754,"text":"連概算都沒有,這個部分我覺得也很難在今天做決定第三個公司就是說今天我們是針對警察、警消、海巡、空總、移民等單位的人員的退伏制度要來做調整"},{"start":23895.049,"end":23921.807,"text":"但是大家都知道這個其實這個年金這個退服的整個改革他一定是一定是整體的當時也很難你很難針對一個特定的職業別來做如果說我們都是個別的針對每一個職業別來做討論的最後的結果會變成每一個職業你很難立法委員每一個人都是都有民意基礎你很難說哪一個職業是不應該調整的你很難說哪一個職業是不辛苦的你很難說哪一個職業的這個調整是錯的"},{"start":23926.669,"end":23947.855,"text":"所以大家都知道他應該是一個整體的我們整體針對整個年金制度哪一些要修改因為我們知道現在也還是還有一些案子有一些公務員的這些相關的調整案子也還在只是還沒有排審查那如果我們今天說因為警察節到了我們今天排警察那現在是教師節到了排教師司法節到了排法官這樣子"},{"start":23948.695,"end":23949.216,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":23978.932,"end":23998.728,"text":"大水庫到底有多大那大家誰要來這個水庫要在哪裡開一個開一個水龍頭這個都都都一定一定一定是要用整體來來觀察了所以我簡單講就是說我見在這邊懇請說我們這個今天兩個委員會聯席的委員大家在是不是能夠讓這個這個這個問題我們至少等這個"},{"start":24002.751,"end":24006.412,"text":"三草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":24032.864,"end":24054.596,"text":"好謝謝那請吳思耀委員發言好謝謝吳思耀第二次發言首先謝謝剛剛幾位在野黨的委員在發言的過程當中都聽到你們肯定蔡英文執政以來拼經濟的成果你們多次提到說因為拼經濟了稅收增加了可以有多的裁員這倒是很感謝你們的肯定"},{"start":24055.536,"end":24058.258,"text":"二）委員蘇巧慧等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正條例修正草案案．一）委員蘇巧慧等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正條例修正條例"},{"start":24071.61,"end":24088.247,"text":"所以說我們不能夠大家我也想當好人你也想當好人我想當散財童子你要散的比我多一點我們都要去自治跟去思考如果今天康了國家之慨某一個族群的人真的你為他擴大了福利"},{"start":24088.928,"end":24114.485,"text":"但是另外一個族群的人你卻去剝奪了他可能享有的福利所以我會一直提醒自己也許在提出某個議案的時候一群人來跟你拍拍手說感謝但是另外一群人我看不到的人可能正在惶惶不安正在期期以為不可所以我們唯一能做到的是盡可能的去兼顧橫平性"},{"start":24115.285,"end":24117.546,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":24138.951,"end":24146.854,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事條例修正條文及增訂附表三草案（事條例修正條文及增訂附表三草案（事條例"},{"start":24154.793,"end":24174.054,"text":"那我們都想要想方設法擴大對於警消同仁的照顧我向我質詢的時候四大面向對於薪資與經貼的調整對於醫療與健康的保障對於退休與福利的擴大以及對於勤務與安全的提升這幾年我們盡可能做更多做更好"},{"start":24175.302,"end":24203.521,"text":"但是我們要擴大對於退休警消的照顧在行有餘力之時更應當不要去蔑視了對於現役警消他們可能因此而蒙蒙受未來基金可能會破產的這樣的風險那當然還有一個今天不知道有沒有機會你們等一下主席總處有代表嗎加一個提案是不是違反了財政紀律法第五條跟第七條"},{"start":24205.841,"end":24211.542,"text":"提案立法委員透過法律提案增加政府支出必須要展明"},{"start":24212.895,"end":24222.922,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及"},{"start":24237.082,"end":24255.395,"text":"另外法律之間確實就本案也是有漢格的啊。剛剛委員都提到如果要修你單從這個我們的這個警察人員的人事條例三十五條來下手那你同時針對公務人員退休之前的撫恤法是不是要配套要改"},{"start":24256.135,"end":24279.925,"text":"甚至如果說國民黨委員是援引陸海空軍軍官士官服務役條例來修的話但是陸海空軍軍官士官服務役條例裡頭條文裡頭還有那個逐年遞減的那個表可是在修這個警察人事條例的時候又去忽略了那個要逐年遞減的那個試算這也形成另外一個更不公平"},{"start":24280.805,"end":24282.227,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":24303.228,"end":24327.228,"text":"最後又被推翻更合宜的時間你需要多少的時間能夠有一個起碼的不會失準的試算我是覺得龍介大哥剛剛講了一周我都覺得夠不夠但是前提是一定要有一個基本的試算否則沒有辦法討論我同意這件事情沒有一個試算的參考資料這個條文是沒有辦法被決定的"},{"start":24327.848,"end":24351.019,"text":"但是一周可以嗎?所以我綜合我說的我還是維持我第一次發言說的我認為維持現行的條文維持我們年改的成果就是去實踐世代正義我還是認為我保留對於這個修法的看法我希望維持現行條文但是如果要討論第一個你要試算的基礎但是一周提出來的東西是值得參考的嗎?"},{"start":24352.602,"end":24354.005,"text":"條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":24362.377,"end":24390.068,"text":"請次長回覆謝謝召委這的確也是因為早上我第一時間就會回覆黃國昌委員我們願意做精算的努力因為精算是一個比較精確的東西如果是粗估這一個禮拜我問過我的同仁當然就很粗有可能跟今天差異就不會太大"},{"start":24390.708,"end":24391.168,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":24413.713,"end":24419.876,"text":"三）委員韓國瑜等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案案案案案案"},{"start":24438.344,"end":24463.584,"text":"全序部那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一"},{"start":24467.048,"end":24467.188,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":24489.425,"end":24518.096,"text":"時間太趕或沒有依據,我沒有辦法接受這樣嘛。瓜哥你不能這樣,是委員逼他一定要拿出一個東西,他一開始也說這個就是很粗很粗的,是委員逼他馬上拿出來啊。人家想辦法擠出委員想要看的東西,先要說人家給垃圾。這樣不公平啦。我跟你講齁,不然這樣啦,就是看那個謝委員他的意思怎麼樣嘛,謝龍介委員,因為每個委員都有自己表達意思的權利。瓜哥,因為我們不需要你精算啦。"},{"start":24519.397,"end":24536.018,"text":"大家都精算好幾年了,精算八九年了。我請你改善就是把你所有出來列出來,大家客觀來面對。所以我跟你說,下禮拜五以前提出來,你不用再去發包啦。你媽媽說不用再去發包,不用發包啦。"},{"start":24538.635,"end":24556.102,"text":"所以這是我的建議啦 因為不是說今天就安裝就安裝本來面對這個 大家有機械 有的怕傷害 屬實本來就是 政府把你機械聽啦公務人員 軍人 警察 大家都很辛苦啦 沒有人不辛苦的啦年輕人 世代我們也照顧 買房也補助租房 補助理事 也檢驗 都在照顧 再到一個族群我們不想要照顧"},{"start":24573.188,"end":24598.239,"text":"王委員主席,在此大家都想要解決問題,可以我所說的說,我希望大家都可以照顧,尤其現有的消防及檢察說實在的,我們都非常辛苦,尤其退休後,有可能生涯的規劃在幾天有減下去時,你要如何提高它"},{"start":24603.322,"end":24604.002,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":24618.755,"end":24620.196,"text":"二）委員辛平智豪等19人擬具"},{"start":24637.563,"end":24638.464,"text":"二）委員國家等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":24650.543,"end":24655.547,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三三草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":24679.087,"end":24679.787,"text":"說實在大家也想要照顧這是說是10億還是要幾百億?喔!那10億還要幾百億?"},{"start":24679.787,"end":24683.13,"text":"那就聽差一點啊!還是給50億出來?因為我相信全台灣退休的有很多啦!不是只有一個區域或一個縣市而已啦!因為全台灣的退休的人說實在會怕死人啊!以上"},{"start":24711.3,"end":24712.742,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":24726.56,"end":24726.96,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":24744.531,"end":24744.931,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":24761.466,"end":24762.086,"text":"二（委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":24785.218,"end":24787.419,"text":"條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":24802.157,"end":24818.073,"text":"三）委員麻煩你齁,雖然是概算齁,但是精確一點,還比較準一點,拜託齁,謝謝。主席,我說比較準一點啦,不要喊喊喊啦,比較準一點啦,提供我們的處理,比較準一點,這樣啦。"},{"start":24827.335,"end":24843.727,"text":"那個齁既然三個禮拜齁我因為實際上其實裡面不只是今天那個數字的部分我們還是再確認一下包括說今天所得替代率我看裡面版本有90%95%齁那包括說韓韓社的對象齁到底是警察"},{"start":24844.527,"end":24866.525,"text":"消防海巡空總還是說今天移民號那我覺得這些最好的狀況有那麼多版本我們就但大家今天既然各有各不同的意見是不是就請主席就保留就送協商好不好就保留送協商剛好協商期一個月你三個禮拜書記也到了那就可以到協商裡面來去做不是"},{"start":24871.391,"end":24871.511,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":24893.129,"end":24913.76,"text":"要繼續擇期再處理我們過去非常多的法案不是所有的法案就是一天處理完然後不管有沒有處理完有沒有共識就打包協商這件事情不是這樣處理的至強委員讓他繼續這個案子一個法案繼續討論第二次反正交委已經排案了他有排案權"},{"start":24914.821,"end":24931.298,"text":"所以比如說三週以後他可以三週以後有完這個會期到7月16再排一次再來就同一個議案繼續審查所以委員會都有繼續審查這才是正辦而不是沒有共識的就是送協商這事情姿勢體大"},{"start":24932.739,"end":24932.799,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":24962.381,"end":24967.605,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．一）委員"},{"start":24991.761,"end":25003.984,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第3次聯席會議．立法院第4次聯席會議．立法院第5次聯席會議．立法院第6次聯席會議．立法院第7次聯席會議．立法院第8次聯席會議．立法院第9次聯席會議．立法院第10次聯席會議．立法院第11次聯席會議．立法院第12次聯席會議�"},{"start":25019.355,"end":25023.697,"text":"王媛媛主席,在這裏我覺得聽起來沒有說很簡單,因為說起來這個所理和應用的人很多,我問問說,因為學生當中大家都知道法律,大家都知道要怎樣,這不是民進黨說的尊聖,也不是國民黨的"},{"start":25040.223,"end":25041.624,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":25054.281,"end":25077.577,"text":"因為現在的協商是跟三黨會同期而已,我們不會同期啦。再來每一個說話都有利,我們要怎麼去遮擋這個中間的問題出來啦。好不好?議長。好,那我現在先,我這邊先做決定啦,休息十分鐘,你們先協調。要休息啦。"},{"start":25078.755,"end":25078.795,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":26348.749,"end":26364.966,"text":"我們繼續開會那請問就本條部分還有大家有沒有表示什麼意見剛剛休息協商沒有共識就保留送協商好那省委員主席各位同仁這個"},{"start":26368.157,"end":26377.287,"text":"因為今天有內政委員會聯席有一些內政委員會的委員他們就不太習慣我們司法法制的氣氛為什麼這樣子劍拔弩張他講話從鼻孔出來了"},{"start":26383.391,"end":26400.733,"text":"但是其實你看我們這個司法法制委員會每一次都在幾乎我們真的有好好討論的法條在我們這裡通過委員會審查通過然後大家有共識的法條然後送到院會審查的有哪一個法幾乎沒有每一次"},{"start":26402.011,"end":26414.089,"text":"都是不討論然後就保留從這個上個月大家大打一架的那個國會擴權法案開始一路都是這樣子"},{"start":26416.101,"end":26440.639,"text":"其實本來如果說正常運作你說大家真的沒有公司在政黨協商裡面來協商本來如果說這樣子也是可以只是他當然是違反了我們過去大家一直主張的這個委員會中心主義本來這樣子也是可以但是問題是我們送去政黨協商的案子從沒有一個案子協商到時候協商的時候主席也是說大家來協商"},{"start":26441.619,"end":26469.89,"text":"協商一條說大家意見不同我們就全案保留再送院長協商院長協商的時候有協商嗎?又沒有協商啊就直接表決所以我們就知道說今天你們這樣子動員來表決說要保留送協商就是又要複製上次國會擴權法案同樣的手法你們一路一路這樣子就沒有協商嘴巴說協商但是其實都不會協商有時候連刑事都不做"},{"start":26471.533,"end":26498.331,"text":"所以我個人是認為說這個我希望說大家能夠從上個月的這個議事衝突裡面學到一點教訓一定要委員會中心主義我們一定要這樣破壞然後送協商然後協商的時候又不協商然後到院長主持協商的時候也不協商然後再來就直接院會表決這樣子攸關全國你這個不只是警察這個是牽涉到公務人員因為大家是同一個大水庫喔"},{"start":26499.605,"end":26511.96,"text":"有關公務人員的這個退府基金要這樣用同樣再用這種方式來通過嗎?這個請真的是請這個國民黨的委員要三思了"},{"start":26513.799,"end":26535.859,"text":"請胡思堯委員那下一位是因為剛剛有一些委員可能有其他的公盲還沒有到場所以我跟大家很快速的說一下我們剛剛進展到哪裡也就是說對於條文的部分剛剛討論參與討論的委員不管內政委員或司法法制委員我們都共同要求權敘部要提出一個盡可能"},{"start":26537.4,"end":26553.206,"text":"能夠參照的試算表,也就是現在通過了我們把警消拉到90%或95%的所得替代率的時候,那對於財政對於基金的破口造成的衝擊,那會是多少?"},{"start":26553.706,"end":26575.426,"text":"包括他會去加速破產的年限是到什麼時候所以大家都是希望有一個參照的版本才能夠作為條文繼續討論的依據這是剛剛的共識所以全序部原本是希望有更長的時間謝龍介委員主張一個禮拜就提出那我個人認為要一個月以上"},{"start":26577.648,"end":26578.649,"text":"條文修正條例三草案案案案案案案﹚三）委員"},{"start":26604.224,"end":26629.47,"text":"或民進黨我個人認為要維持原版本不要去破壞整個橫平性一致性所以說這個很清楚是需要在委員會再花時間討論的不要說沒有一個完整的討論參照就又要打包送協商再一次沒收了委員會中心主義那在這裡我也要跟羅志強委員報告志強委員還有龍介委員你們剛剛都在參與討論比較多的"},{"start":26634.131,"end":26638.555,"text":"上一次在2017年跟2018年的年改討論的幾次呢?2017討論公務人員的年改委員會討論了四次上次公務人員的年改法案在委員會討論的四次充分討論"},{"start":26653.379,"end":26669.998,"text":"教育人員也在委員會討論了兩次教育人員為什麼只討論兩次因為他多數是跟公務人員差不多所以教育人員就是討論兩次然後到軍人的時候2018年的時候同樣在委員會也討論了四次"},{"start":26672.785,"end":26699.712,"text":"所以這都讓我告訴我們年金改革姿勢體大今天怎麼會在司法法制委員會一次的討論事實上早上都在尋答我們一直尋答到下午兩點多兩點二十才進入條文的主條要用兩個小時不到的時間又要打包協商這是不對不負責任這又再一次只是要強行碾壓嗎"},{"start":26701.755,"end":26704.916,"text":"二）委員黃國昌等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員黃國昌等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員"},{"start":26729.907,"end":26744.434,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由．委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":26755.816,"end":26784.816,"text":"一個小時四十分鐘的時間又要強行打包透過表決大家深思國民黨的委員要這樣處理嗎?民進黨認為這個條文就繼續keep在委員會因為需要一個試算表需要一個更進一步討論的餐具所以這個案子不應當強行打包協商而且是透過表決的方式我們再一次給社會看我們的立場是什麼好 謝謝那請那個謝龍介委員發言"},{"start":26792.603,"end":26802.967,"text":"學生就是說大家可以,我是提案人啦,我提案95%這是在提出問題嘛民進黨考考想想都說這八年來經濟不斷在成長改教育的人我們要教育嘛"},{"start":26812.566,"end":26833.813,"text":"你告訴我你沒有精算,如果這樣離空一千年,對不對?那時候是怎麼做的?你要抬的時候你也沒有精算嘛,都有嘛。所以我告訴你一星期,你是把計算拿出來就好,不然兩星期,現在當然說你三星期。拿來,合算是一個月的時間嘛。我提案說95%,"},{"start":26841.937,"end":26850.042,"text":"二）委員柯總召今天說不然我們賣95%（二）委員我們來抄80%（85%（對不對（這叫做協商嘛（在一個委員會收一個案不是去到政黨協商後去變經的（甚至最好一個再修正動議（李三督的時候（對不對（也都可以蓋啊（今天我不是跟你說這警察退休就是一吹風一月黑狗（"},{"start":26874.383,"end":26894.12,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1"},{"start":26902.472,"end":26904.534,"text":"二）委員佩契三明郎等19人擬具三草案案。"},{"start":26927.281,"end":26929.282,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":26956.96,"end":26978.63,"text":"一條高層的八層外翼的無神當然會覺得這個貼紙制度是不是要怎麼改?但新來的保護官職你沒可能啦,我們現在一併重新來檢討。所以貼案的精神,我今天從頭到尾都跟你說叫我貼案的要過,我可以來叫叫人、叫叫人手給過,不是嘛。"},{"start":26982.23,"end":26983.31,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":27012.523,"end":27039.263,"text":"你聽到沒有?但是警察的...你想想我來自台南各位你們如果在北部出身的不一定你們體位比較不高全台灣的警察就對了差不多都是混家人、藝人的為什麼?我們這裡很多紅頭主義要拍攝這裡所以來科技、來科警察"},{"start":27040.407,"end":27052.212,"text":"二）委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案案．一）委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案案．一．委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案案．一．委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案案．一．委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條條文修正三草案案．一．委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察"},{"start":27066.052,"end":27075.196,"text":"我們有人是跟你講忠心悲心啦,我不是跟你講你這樣不對啦。你說全國社會來審,好啊,我也同意啊。麻吉手來手啦,兩條被告情約,我們就當保證告了。勞工這,退伍基金,若波普也是改革的一種啊。若搞警察,你們就不是波普,就像掛椅的肉來吃白人的大雞,對不對。"},{"start":27097.239,"end":27099.844,"text":"所以主張是這樣三個禮拜來提出來都要在合相的期間來"},{"start":27105.779,"end":27106.259,"text":"二）委員二）委員"},{"start":27134.799,"end":27136.5,"text":"蘇清泉委員有不斷提到我"},{"start":27163.146,"end":27172.556,"text":"那今天 大家都 內政委會可能比較不清楚啦齁司法法院有個特色 這什麼特色 婦婚期來了"},{"start":27173.376,"end":27174.817,"text":"二）委員黃文昌等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例修正條例修正條例》案。"},{"start":27197.028,"end":27197.148,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":27228.086,"end":27239.716,"text":"請各位在場委員,我講一句話你自己聽就好不要火燒連環產,這是你們慢性領悟那現在我們要國內扣錢改革要實現要實現"},{"start":27256.02,"end":27281.6,"text":"二）委員我們再有一個憲政原則來處理這沒有所謂的經濟承托力很好當然經濟承托力很好的話要用在什麼地方?那是國家的財政資源的分配當然是這個要回到什麼?這個沒有巧的空間啦我說白啦就是說什麼試算這是一個"},{"start":27283.684,"end":27294.235,"text":"現法七十條的中大原則已大法實現三九一中大原則。你不能預算的前提是在行政以前。"},{"start":27295.658,"end":27317.553,"text":"二）委員只有審查、審查一級的法律依算案依、法律案依算案、新能夠合案。二）委員沒有編列依算的權利。所以任何你提出有關於依算增加的,絕對是違憲。我從最一開始講就好了。所以這也沒有所謂的什麼,欸瓜你給我瞧瞧瞧瞧的,不可以的事情。現在不瞧的啦。現在沒辦法協商啦。現在不是說標高贏就贏啦。這是"},{"start":27324.417,"end":27349.663,"text":"我們是一個憲政體系的國家,司法自恃維持。請任是憲政機關,我們也是憲政機關,都要遵守憲法原則。所以這第一點,我大家請注意聽喔,國民黨你只要一直這樣搞的話,火燒聯席團啊,火燒聯席團,你自己注意,沒關係。你不相信的話,你不相信的話你自己再看著。"},{"start":27352.321,"end":27376.673,"text":"這個當然是底下,我們來看過去年輕改革。過去年輕改革的時候,小英總統為了年輕改革開了國事會議,大概一年多,然後再重新年輕改革。然後由相安部、前醫師部、教育部以及相安部會全部提出來,共同聯全部提年輕改革,三個年輕改革,包括軍人。"},{"start":27378.052,"end":27400.029,"text":"這好不容易提出來在這個場域就在這個地方從這個地方金門開了四次那嘉峪兩次郭文蓮四次記得當年在審查這個時候國務黨沒有提案他不敢提案因為再怎麼提都不對啊"},{"start":27401.363,"end":27416.52,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19執政委員所有開始年金改革但是後來有一次叫臨時會再開萬美玲等19覺得會得罪太多人要改的話會得罪很多人所以趕快把他包起來"},{"start":27418.74,"end":27429.695,"text":"參議院總統上臺以後從事所有改革,包括轉型、整理、年齡改革等等都有做。所以這個是一個,因為不只是社會爭議的問題,這個是包括憲政體制的問題,這個要嚴明再宣。"},{"start":27435.074,"end":27453.063,"text":"所以我們今天看2017的時候在大家這樣衝突包括半條裝飾等等所有衝突到最後改革完成那十四個藍白鄰居常常在匪憲亂政"},{"start":27454.929,"end":27467.533,"text":"自已提出來,現在要討好某類族群的人。警察人員人事條例有百分之百,也有九十幾人。大家都知道嘛。那竟然跟警察不一樣,警察是公務人員,要退休。"},{"start":27478.897,"end":27505.997,"text":"六十位退休,今年五十位選官選回去就一定要退所以有差別待遇今天我要談的就是這個一點我都知道大家都要做好人,我也想做好人啊但是好人不是那麼多啊你現在打在頭上做好人不可能嘛是不是這樣所以今天大家不要想說我要討好誰討好誰那這警察今天,警察一定在看啊"},{"start":27507.506,"end":27522.379,"text":"所以警察人員包括什麼包括海巡包括空警什麼都是啊大家都以為這樣今天一改國民黨的大德政但是實則是不可能的所以今天大家要想清楚"},{"start":27523.956,"end":27524.096,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":27544.11,"end":27572.964,"text":"然後現在又搞這個那以後公務人員比照警察警察比照警察比照金人這大家也會要欸但是這可能嗎整個整個你現在連改第1個國務黨期日連改法連改那再提這個下次又提公務人員比照警察那國家國家的財政是這樣搞的嗎絕對不對嘛所以大家請在先任體制以下請跟大法官試試三九一還有呢"},{"start":27574.105,"end":27580.037,"text":"條例修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":27581.195,"end":27608.166,"text":"是行政院的,你怎麼可能驗負代包?就好像胡云旗所提的那個所謂兩兆前面法案。他一人可以提兩兆,我也可以提一兆,然後放在心理科學園區。那執政,執政誰要負責?根本行政院就結束了嘛。所以這個是政黨政治一個很重要,而且民主先生提下的一個很重要的概念。所以今天有提出說什麼來試算啦。"},{"start":27611.481,"end":27631.003,"text":"來試算那時只是大家在這裡要給大家一個一個下台決議,絕對不可能啦誰敢去試算?這可以試算的啊所以希望你你頭腦不錯以後這個大家來瞧看來你以為民進黨會跟你在玩試算?不可能的事情"},{"start":27631.92,"end":27633.32,"text":"二）委員我今天來代表民進黨整個言論我負責"},{"start":27656.687,"end":27656.767,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":27684.447,"end":27696.456,"text":"三位都已經沒有休息了 叫誰比較好 叫誰比較好 他們都還想討論然後你要 叫接下來也沒有齁 那現在休息 陳一正來這裡會 妳是什麼人會"},{"start":27699.854,"end":27701.795,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":27725.64,"end":27727.361,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":27755.442,"end":27778.261,"text":"條例修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具、「警察人員人事條例修正草案案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具、「警察人員人事條例修正草案案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具、「警察人員人事條例修正草案案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具、「警察人員人事條例修正�"},{"start":27785.701,"end":27787.005,"text":"欸 董事長你不可以說那個是老幾老黨嗎?沒有民主"},{"start":27793.027,"end":27802.533,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":27823.227,"end":27842.525,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":27847.697,"end":27871.05,"text":"我永遠支持柯總召五點半還沒到那是不好要怕死這樣真的不好啦柯總召提三位不好啦真的拜託主席是三位提的主席回來討論啦不要再提三位了啦請主席回來討論大家討論嘛我討論啊請主席討論啊"},{"start":27875.659,"end":27876.38,"text":"二）委員三）委員三）委員"},{"start":27894.455,"end":27895.015,"text":"一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗"},{"start":27915.225,"end":27936.331,"text":"沒有啦 那個 那麼多怪債 那麼辛苦 也讓他有一點時間去找其他人好不好讓他成年他好了 好不好 這個神功特工隊 你們是神功特工隊 要演自殺的 政治沒有要演自殺 你們要演就去演吧"},{"start":27937.692,"end":27945.656,"text":"這為人民爭取權利我們叫做至上爭取應該有的權利叫做至上趕快尖叫機拿來一下陳玉珍來了他又來亂了趕快講話就是來亂的什麼叫我講話就是亂的沒有這事啊這個是兩件事情好不好"},{"start":27963.902,"end":27970.924,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":27993.018,"end":27996.802,"text":"二）委員王國昌等19人擬具一律不見盧格山丘等19人擬具一律不見盧格山丘等"},{"start":28024.053,"end":28024.593,"text":"二）委員誰?誰來?"},{"start":28054.52,"end":28072.269,"text":"副總召,那個謝龍介,我們今天是這些人跟你細語回首,以後你們進來緊緊錄音啊,然後一起拍節目,你還傻乎乎的以後我們還要跟你談什麼調整,因為我們最近經營人我們盤他咖的,你還假的啊,總召,總召"},{"start":28076.567,"end":28076.687,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":28092.813,"end":28093.593,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":28123.066,"end":28123.606,"text":"二）委員黃國昌等19人擬具"},{"start":28157.918,"end":28158.058,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":28467.725,"end":28468.526,"text":"條例修正三草案案"},{"start":28984.916,"end":29001.21,"text":"大會報告大會報告尤其停港白鐘停市民港白鐘 紅紅窗把他趕快找回來好不好 大會報告我們兩個集體自殺來 我們看這一幕台語叫無才港啦 我北部無才港啦"},{"start":29005.301,"end":29006.962,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":29035.57,"end":29039.473,"text":"連某水老還雄心萬丈,安靜維穩你知道嗎,騎馬才吃屎啦。"},{"start":29090.592,"end":29093.394,"text":"一年表決輸,表決贏也是輸啦,不要亂搞好不好。"},{"start":29123.933,"end":29129.03,"text":"二）委員佳琳等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":29192.681,"end":29198.924,"text":"當會報告當會報告黃昌不會來了十分鐘前發臉書沒來啦沒來啦自判概念啦沒啦他現在在臉書上宣布他投降啦"},{"start":29222.133,"end":29238.057,"text":"他要叫刑事部去示範,示範啊,示範概念啊。不然我現在來談一下憲法概念好不好,憲法教學。"},{"start":29251.854,"end":29254.316,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":29281.884,"end":29282.249,"text":"很適合欸"},{"start":29694.61,"end":29702.654,"text":"我也是這樣覺得,我們可以討論一下憲法,柯總長。我在日本也唸書,我是台大的呢。我不是在台灣讀四個嗎?是啊,中文系、法律系、輔系、雙學位。"},{"start":29717.664,"end":29722.868,"text":"後來我又去日本念書了日本唐寺沒剩鴨喔?都有去日本唐寺嗎?日本45年前在日本讀書啊不然我們來講文言文啊我記得說剛剛鄧小平來訪問日本"},{"start":29747.088,"end":29751.149,"text":"市長你講的很有智慧的話,兩岸的問題這一代沒有智慧解決,留給下一代。這個是有智慧的話?"},{"start":29797.853,"end":29822.592,"text":"自強兄協詢一下吧上次你那麼精神的在幫忙協詢你不都在協詢趙偉的嗎對不對繼續談啊繼續談這個我還是跟副總綱苦口婆心的表達一下啦其實幾位我們報告退伍制度的參與者都是這樣"},{"start":29823.942,"end":29836.1,"text":"我們目前在我看了一下我們的這個12個版本今天要審的12個版本啊扣除本當委員吳立華本身他處理的只是法條名稱的修正之外其他的"},{"start":29838.396,"end":29839.037,"text":"二）委員吳立華等19人擬具"},{"start":29856.113,"end":29874.63,"text":"公務人員退休法改成公務人員退休之前撫恤法依照新的條文名稱更正之外他沒有做其他內容的更正但是另外11個版本大概有10個委員提出那比較特別的是王委員宏威他一個人就提了兩個版本但是兩個版本他的所得替代率都是90%"},{"start":29875.831,"end":29889.747,"text":"不曉得為什麼要提兩個那另外呢提90%的有8個版本提95%的有3個版本那龍介你也是95%的啦那慘白說這些條文內容只有所得替代率的差別"},{"start":29890.728,"end":29901.919,"text":"那麼所得替代率是不是我們這邊從90或95倍面提高就可以啊?我跟大家分享一個齁,我們小時候常聽長輩在說啦。他說日本時代所有國民政府來台灣,那軍隊來了,沒看過現代化的水就水啦。"},{"start":29906.644,"end":29906.744,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":29925.014,"end":29949.711,"text":"所以我覺得目前看到這11個版本當中就是看到替代率想要提高就在警察人員人事條例當中安插一個水龍頭認為水太小把水龍頭的口徑放大以為這樣子所得替代率就能提高忽略了整個退伍制度必須回歸到公務人員退休之前撫恤法的規定當中這裡面今天大家願意看一下第二頁講得很好"},{"start":29950.572,"end":29969.569,"text":"他這裡面的原則包括權益又對等,撫恤基金永續經營,因此新制定的公務人員退休之前撫恤法當中的38條跟37條,他將所得的給付費率等等都一併計算。所以這裡奉勸我們這11個版本的創造者,雖然有時有10位委員,"},{"start":29970.47,"end":29979.978,"text":"如果真的要幫我們的警察人員提高他們退休後的經濟生活的給付的話還是奉勸回歸到正軌公務人員退休撫恤法當中"},{"start":29983.564,"end":30006.681,"text":"那對於退休輔助基金跟入跟出一併注意慶應處理啦所以不要認為現在水龍頭的水太小你們找一個新的水龍頭口徑大的就直接安插在警察人員人事條例當中這樣以為就可以提高所得替代率還是要回歸整套自來水系統回歸到我們整個退伍系統也就是公務人員退休之前輔助法當中的辦法"},{"start":30008.522,"end":30012.343,"text":"條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":30031.208,"end":30052.234,"text":"條文提待率90或95在前端應該負有什麼樣的義務,繳費義務,才不會把所得替代率後端所享受的已經退休人的享受,增加到前面還在職人員他們的繳費負擔上。我覺得這才是個正辦。所以再次奉勸,要做主來聚,不要做一個水到水頭而已。整套主來聚,水口水槓,要到水頭水頭。"},{"start":30056.895,"end":30075.232,"text":"要作為涉嫌不要放在警察人員人事條例當中還是回歸到公務人員退休之前幾……就是這個辦法去處理,這個法去處理。以上,就這樣回應了。說一句國民黨來,阿嘴的頭磚的頭嘴,真好啦。話說回來,以前福祉,有一堆狗,"},{"start":30082.985,"end":30102.976,"text":"這堆稿呢,都一堆眼睛而已,戰中破雙,一隻肝一隻尾的。阿去給這兩堆眼睛的稿齁,給堆散了,加加遍體臨床。所以要有輔助主筆齁,總要把這堆稿救起來。救起來之後放在一雙。這雙呢,寫到幾雙都是一堆眼睛的稿啊。有一日啊。"},{"start":30113.069,"end":30123.912,"text":"二）委員的稿來到這棵山寫圖時,叫這棵山的稿看,哎呦夭壽啦,靠,那個稿破手了,二）委員啦,讚頌的稿啦,二）委員啦。這個稿大王吼,這二）委員的稿大王總要叫一頂稿,一）委員會說,處理稿找我看看,看,那兩）委員的稿早上就給他對一下,好,不會把他抓回來。這兩）委員的稿一直照,一直照。"},{"start":30141.616,"end":30145.619,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案》案。"},{"start":30178.857,"end":30196.544,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、"},{"start":30217.952,"end":30246.198,"text":"那個也不是立法委員可以提案的啦國家在整個國家國家的一個公民意志來處理那個柯總召是說砍聯金是立法委員可以提案但是不要把他停止是立法委員不能提案喔這是什麼道理啊沒有我說憲法我剛剛讀了憲法憲法來柯總召我剛剛為了你說那個我們不懂憲法我趕快把中華民國憲法又讀了一遍啊我先講憲法等一下"},{"start":30247.709,"end":30271.369,"text":"有六種情況我們知道謝謝學長謝謝學長來總長阿強還有什麼不熟悉尊重一下尊重一下不是等一下那是上一次上一題那個柯總長為什麼無戀那你沒尊重我我剛為了你說憲法特別把憲法兩個那個原則還有這個憲法第七條拿出來再讀了一下咧等你開始再講"},{"start":30565.256,"end":30582.182,"text":"你的春風是豆腐做的。國婆山河寨,行春車木青,甘時花鮮蕊,粉白鳥驚心。紅紅蓮三月,家書滴瓣金,白條絲經斷,粉玉不勝針,不勝針。哇!不錯!"},{"start":30597.236,"end":30601.332,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案案。」案。"},{"start":30891.22,"end":30912.919,"text":"二）委員劉許廷等到你了。你讓這麼多前輩在這等你。總召大人不是說回來自殺了嗎?這邊。話都講成這樣了。歡迎回來。那吳宗憲、趙偉可以回來了吧?你們還要協詢誰?黃國昌是不會來了啦。"},{"start":31005.171,"end":31008.932,"text":"二）委員高津昭偉等19人擬具高津昭偉等19人擬具高津昭偉"},{"start":31245.248,"end":31264.553,"text":"趙偉你等到人數多了你就到了謝謝大家比我媽還想我等到你一點都不好笑餒不會啦好啦那我們就繼續開會沒關係啦謝謝指教"},{"start":31293.462,"end":31305.152,"text":"不會啦,上次我們的召委離開好幾個小時,更久嘛對不對?好,那我們...好,我們現在有一個臨時...要送喔?要送喔?靠腰了"},{"start":31323.339,"end":31336.391,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文"},{"start":31350.762,"end":31369.335,"text":"那個上會動議要優先處理嗎?因為現在有提出上會動議那我們先請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":31373.537,"end":31397.553,"text":"提案提出三會動議提案人委員吳清明、吳思瑤、審發會、蘇巧慧、鍾嘉斌、張鴻祿、黃捷、陳俊宇、王美惠宣讀完畢。提點名表決放置為之留下記錄啦主席不要重複念知道嗎?主席要先拿簽照給我"},{"start":31404.941,"end":31432.267,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬"},{"start":31433.57,"end":31450.248,"text":"報告柯總召那這樣子既然你們提點名表決沒關係那我們就用舉手表決來討論點名表決嘛我想說這個是OK嘛程序就這樣走嘛不是啦因為總召我都是跟你學習的啦那我們就這樣處理好不好"},{"start":31456.64,"end":31484.182,"text":"你現在要點名表決嘛對不對那我們現在就因為有同仁有提出來說需要用要來表決到底要不要用點名表決那這個方式那我們現在表決啊沒有啦兩個都要表決要不要舉手兩號點名表決先表決一下針對省會動議以點名表決方式大家有沒有有無異議"},{"start":31485.783,"end":31509.389,"text":"請問他有異議?好有異議那對於異議是什麼?好那針對點名表決部分齁我們以舉手表決的方式為之那請輕點在場人數沒有問題舉手我幫你點唱名啦問題舉手這樣齁"},{"start":31515.11,"end":31527.474,"text":"來,歷史的一課來,大家看著喔。我們現在開始表決齁,那贊成民進黨所提出來的一點名表決方式進行表決者請舉手。你看,都準時啊。"},{"start":31534.184,"end":31540.332,"text":"有吳清明、蘇巧慧、王美惠、陳俊宇、黃捷、張宏祿、沈發慧、鍾嘉斌、吳思瑤跟...好,那反對者請舉手"},{"start":31552.196,"end":31564.56,"text":"二）委員羅志強等19人擬具羅志強等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具"},{"start":31582.366,"end":31610.636,"text":"好 那我們現在處理散會動議請問對民進黨所提的柯建民所提的散會動議請問大家有異議沒有異議好 有異議的話馬上表決好 請清點在場人數再去表決一次有異議沒有異議先表決一下好 在場人數21人支持贊成柯總召所提的散會動議者請舉手"},{"start":31612.591,"end":31612.871,"text":"本件贊成上會議動議者為少數。"},{"start":31634.983,"end":31639.566,"text":"和尚會動議報告．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員"},{"start":31661.175,"end":31663.096,"text":"我們現在處理延長會議時間的動議"},{"start":31683.788,"end":31687.83,"text":"總召剛剛才表決完你這麼快就忘了我們剛剛那個跟總召報告一下"},{"start":31698.314,"end":31716.14,"text":"是全體委員會議之會議時間,禮請延長至全部議程審議完畢,是否有當敬請公務人員、黑暗人委員傅坤祺、卓志強、徐欣宜、許珍宇、林玄中、張志倫等全體委員會議之會議時間,禮請延長至全部議程審議完畢,是否有當敬請公務人員、黑暗人委員傅坤祺、卓志強、徐欣宜、徐珍宇等全體委員會議之會議時間,禮請延長至全部議程審議完畢,是否有當敬請公務人員、黑暗人委員傅坤祺、卓志強、徐欣宜等全體委員會"},{"start":31728.724,"end":31731.205,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":31754.894,"end":31758.657,"text":"延長原因是什麼說明一下好不好好我們先清點在場人數我們人有變動在場人數21人"},{"start":31774.65,"end":31785.778,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條"},{"start":31804.79,"end":31815.256,"text":"那你不是有講原因嗎?為什麼?11人請放下反對請舉手沒有沒有,可是我表決一直被我第30條我跟妳講喔一直被我第30條在...在..."},{"start":31826.792,"end":31831.936,"text":"二）委員三）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":31857.068,"end":31879.625,"text":"什麼討論要講什麼東西啊?要討論什麼啊?主席一般延長要講原因,怎麼先延長再來講原因?同時要講原因在議題表決。你要延長開會時間,原因要先講清楚。沒有先延長再來講原因的,你這個程序錯誤。程序不正義就無效。"},{"start":31884.248,"end":31905.124,"text":"韓國瑜在宴會主持會是這樣阿今天至於委員長開的時間大嫂才有維持一講話就算平息不增益阿不要長紮齁才得回去寫臉書晚上要寫一篇情理阿好不好請你啦你明天晚上睡覺以後要看我的臉書你才會好像看Bible一樣齁還要狠"},{"start":31907.21,"end":31919.3,"text":"好 那個柯總召講完了齁 那我可以繼續了齁那我們現在就繼續審理第三十五條及增訂附表三那現在有委員提出停職討論動議什麼叫停職討論動議"},{"start":31927.106,"end":31953.147,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律"},{"start":31954.839,"end":31962.366,"text":"提案者是不要提案說明這是他的權利嘛那他如果不願意提案都不想說明就趕快提案說明就趕快下課提案說明聽之討論動議請問各位"},{"start":31973.436,"end":31998.462,"text":"三）委員請問有無異議?有異議的話那我們就進行表決。針對停職討論動議者,現在進行表決齁,採用舉手表決。啊,表決前請先請舉手。這沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案"},{"start":32004.11,"end":32016.582,"text":"二）委員齊翔等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":32027.981,"end":32035.951,"text":"表決結果到在場出席委員21人贊成者11人反對者10人本案贊成者多數通過現在進行討論。"},{"start":32047.304,"end":32051.308,"text":"你們為什麼敢提提出討論的提案呢?三十五條還沒有處理完。三十五條都有意義啊。我們要求延長討論又不要討論。"},{"start":32072.386,"end":32082.553,"text":"條文及三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．併案審查立法院第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議"},{"start":32096.903,"end":32097.083,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":32108.71,"end":32131.456,"text":"來那個因為本條我們剛在審查的時候那個羅志強委員他提議說他希望本條保留送協商那不知道各位有無異議有異議嗎這個案子要持續在委員會持續討論阿因為沒有方式阿那如果有異議要隨方向來順三因為我們這個國民黨的主席也不會協商阿他不會協商的啦縣長沒有協商的啦"},{"start":32138.019,"end":32154.191,"text":"二）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹑三）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具《警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案案﹑三）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具《警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹑三）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具《警察人員人事條例第三十五條條條文修正草案案案案案﹑三）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具《警察人員人事條例第三十五條條"},{"start":32162.036,"end":32181.101,"text":"提案人蘇清泉有來嗎?提案人萬美玲有來嗎?提案人王宏威有來嗎?提案人丁焯昌有來說明嗎?提案人林寬宏有來嗎?提案人周天才有來說明嗎?提案人林思敏有來嗎?提案人王宏威有來說明了嗎?提案人劉浩文有來說明了嗎?提案人劉浩文有來說明了嗎?"},{"start":32188.003,"end":32191.646,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條"},{"start":32201.243,"end":32204.567,"text":"條例修正第三條條文修正第三條條文修正第三條條文"},{"start":32220.959,"end":32240.266,"text":"結束了齁那個有關法條的提案說明其實早上我們都有讓提案的人願意來說提案的人要來參與討論才知道麻煩不要麻煩尊重主席現在在發言那主席發言完畢之後再如果有需要的我們再請其他委員發言那因為有關條文的提案說明"},{"start":32243.196,"end":32255.147,"text":"條文提案說明的部分因為今天早上有提案者都已經來說明我記得是四位到五位那如果其他不願意他有提案不願意來做說明我想我們也是尊重他的意見"},{"start":32258.75,"end":32286.479,"text":"那我們現在就羅志強委員所提出來的就本條保留送協商這個部分呢因為雙方大家有反對阿所以就這個部分呢我們用舉手表決的方式等等主席阿這個保留送協商的也可以討論吧等等等等主席這個不是不經討論就可以說保留送協商的喔那個小朋友在照什麼那個誰阿那個主席你是誰主席這一個提議這個動議還是要討論"},{"start":32288.32,"end":32288.44,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":32297.054,"end":32305.438,"text":"這直播的不一定要炸到我們?不是你們請人在這裡拍龍義祥的比賽表決行為?還沒有,一天半晚,都是你們在偷拍啊!主席,那個,中委,我們這一條已經停止討論,剛剛已經表決過了。"},{"start":32318.585,"end":32321.906,"text":"我現在討論的是表決送協商的這個批要討論吧你要先停著討論啊主席我們要求要討論表決送協商那個東西欸請問在場的委員支持"},{"start":32333.43,"end":32350.797,"text":"主席等等等等這個動議還沒有被討論喔主席主席我提醒一下你現在剛剛的羅委員的動議還沒有被討論這個動議不是不經討論就可以立即表決的請看清楚喔那反對保留送協商者請舉手主席剛剛的保留送協商的動議不是不經討論就可以表決的喔"},{"start":32361.819,"end":32368.481,"text":"結果在場出席委員21人,贊成者11人,反對90人多數通過。第三十五條及增訂附表三保留送協商。"},{"start":32384.455,"end":32399.83,"text":"我們現在審查續號第11那個第36條提案人有鄭天才等18人提案及武力華委員等16人提案請問就本條部分有意見有意見本條是不是對本條請說好來"},{"start":32402.898,"end":32417.661,"text":"主席本條號就是什麼我之前所說今天呢我們有12個版本在處理35條所以36條的這兩個版本這兩個版本呢他分別呢就是就公務人員原來就公務人員退休"},{"start":32419.618,"end":32446.388,"text":"公務人員撫恤法他把名稱改為新法的名稱叫公務人員退休之前撫恤法兩個提案都是一樣那我再強調的我們今天這一次的12個版本的討論當中除了武力法委員的版本他就是就原條文當中適用舊法名稱的公務人員撫恤法改為公務人員退休之前撫恤法之外"},{"start":32447.128,"end":32454.325,"text":"其他的都有動到三十五條的所得替代率。」那麼我認為這兩個條文呢他目前他就將"},{"start":32455.894,"end":32481.721,"text":"舊法名稱改為新法但是我還是要強調的剛剛我們所謂保留送協商的版本當中有主張所得替代率90%有主張所得替代率95%甚至有同一位委員提出兩個一模一樣的版本那這個剛才都沒有經過充分的討論處理而且所謂的保留送協商剛剛主席也沒有說明是"},{"start":32482.802,"end":32493.895,"text":"該三十五條全部的十一個版本都保留送協商還是保留哪些條文送協商那我還是要強調一下我們這次如果大家真的關心警察人員"},{"start":32495.967,"end":32519.236,"text":"的退休輔續的內容那麼回歸到他警察人員人事條例本身他從任官任職到後面的退休跟輔續基本上在退休輔續的時候已經回歸到公務人員退休之前輔續法當中去將整個退輔基金的進跟出收跟支做永續經營的考量"},{"start":32520.777,"end":32538.212,"text":"所以如果我們在這裡針對警察人員的退休輔具沿用警察人員人事條例當中的專章退休輔具專章只加了變更所得替代率而且所得替代率這個部分也不鑒於我們警察人員人事條例的其他條文"},{"start":32540.274,"end":32547.759,"text":"所以完完全全是橫空而出以這樣而論呢這樣的警察人員人事條例要來單獨的處理警察人員的退休撫恤的所謂的所得替代率實在在法制的體力上是有所焊隔的所以我們的再三的希望我們接下來的36條雖然只是將法條名稱根據新法的名稱予以更正予以修訂"},{"start":32562.367,"end":32579.701,"text":"但是真正核心的問題就是在於我們警察人員退休撫恤的所得替代率應該回歸到我們公務人員退休之前撫恤法當中能夠充分的一三十七條三十八條當中去精算他如果要提高警察人員退休後的撫恤"},{"start":32580.922,"end":32607.37,"text":"又不要去增加在職現在的警察人員他們的負擔那這一定要從他們過去是否有旅行提撥或者繳費這樣的義務才能在後續去退休給付的時候去核算他們的權利那如果只有就權利的部分單向的提高警察人員現職退休現在已經退休包含已經退休跟"},{"start":32608.59,"end":32611.153,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．一）委員"},{"start":32622.478,"end":32629.423,"text":"支付就是由其他的在職的警務人員他們必須來負擔而且這也減損了現職人員退休後他們可以領取退休補去相關年金的權利所以在這裡我們要再次的強調民主進步黨我們認為對於警察人員的照顧這是不分部會都應該要支持的"},{"start":32644.634,"end":32662.577,"text":"但是如果只是想要增加警察人員尤其是已經退休人員他在退休輔助當中的權益而只是單向的針對警察人員人事條例在三十五條當中去提高一個所得替代率是完全沒有辦法去進行處理的所以呢針對我們今天有十二個版本十一個版本十個委員領銜的提案我們還是希望"},{"start":32670.859,"end":32688.409,"text":"能夠回歸到公務人員退休之前撫恤法第37條第38條完完整整的將未來如果要提高限職警察人員退休之後他所請領的退休年金幾付應該在這個階段37條38條同時一併處理他們對於該退撫基金本身應與進行的繳交的"},{"start":32697.074,"end":32706.142,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯"},{"start":32720.414,"end":32742.654,"text":"所得替代率要到達90%或95%的時候相對應的他在公務人員退休之前撫恤法當中第37條38條要如何的去完成相關的配套才不會說已經退休的人因為這個條文的修改讓行政部門他們去擴張擴張他們並沒有"},{"start":32745.396,"end":32764.355,"text":"旅行的義務而一味的調整他們所享用的權利。」那這個呢是真正對我們目前退休警察人員的一種傷害因為我想退休警察人員過去對於國家的付出對於社會的貢獻我們都已肯定但是所謂的公務人員退休之前撫恤法"},{"start":32765.276,"end":32786.737,"text":"就是清清楚楚明明白白的將所有包括警察人員在內的公務人員他們在職期間所依法依法所繳交的未來支應退休撫恤的金所需要的經費他們依法來繳納而在他們退休之後才能依法來請領所以主席我講這麼多你都沒有再仔細聽"},{"start":32787.538,"end":32801.469,"text":"三十六條講啊我三十六條講到我讓你開心的講三十六條是文事修正你也給人家講個十分鐘欣賞你啊回復到那你一直在講之前的條文我就讓你開心回復打斷你嘛那我這樣對你還不夠好嗎萬水應該點頭吧好不好我再提醒喔如果我們真的要改三十五條、三十六條"},{"start":32816.96,"end":32832.75,"text":"回歸到公務人員退休之前撫恤法,這也是三十六條的規定嘛。三十六條它不是修改了嗎?它把原來的公務人員退休撫恤法改成了公務人員退休之前撫恤法。所以主席有瞭解我在談到三十六條的內容的確是兩個版本都是將舊法的名稱改為新法的名稱。這樣子有沒有回復到三十六條的本題?"},{"start":32844.878,"end":32873.284,"text":"那我還加上一個應該將整個今天討論的一內容回歸到公務人員退休之前撫恤法來處理。好,謝謝,那我們接下來由羅志強委員發言。好啦,我真的是對我們宗嘉賓感到無限的佩服。其實36條,我們所有的直播大家來看一看。他就只是把適用公務人員撫恤法之規定改成適用公務人員退休之前撫恤法。"},{"start":32874.639,"end":32901.404,"text":"你也可以給我講個你可以扯到外太空去你的能力簡直超越你們的大師柯建民啦對不對柯建民校長要傳承了啦今天連個文字修正你都要可以盤古開天講下去那說真的討論也沒什麼意義啦你們的散會還真的有意義喔因為你也知道眾嘉賓接下來要開始盤古開天了所以柯建民就要提散會是這個意思嗎至於要講35條"},{"start":32909.33,"end":32923.383,"text":"三十五條拜託今天所有看直播的人我們討論三十五條討論多久每一個人都發言在討論三十五條已經討論到最後兩邊開始還做了休息協商沒有共識嘛"},{"start":32924.204,"end":32951.657,"text":"沒有公示材所以保留送協商嘛怎麼會講到說變成是三十五條沒有討論呢?金魚腦也不是這樣子設定的啊 對不對裝瞎也不能說完全連一絲絲的光都看不到啊 對不對所以我要講就是說三十五條不要又被民進黨朋友騙了三十五條一整個下午都在討論三十五條三十六條只是文字修正要討論鬼循環到什麼時候啊謝謝"},{"start":32954.07,"end":32956.937,"text":"謝謝 那先請那個省委員 委員完就翁委員"},{"start":32959.102,"end":32987.056,"text":"這個請不要把人民都當作白癡啦齁你剛剛講的那些話大家都都因為整個過程你如果有從頭看到尾就知道這個這個尤其是齁我們如果有忠實的觀眾齁每天都有收看我們我們羅志強委員直播的齁我們司法法制委員會的實況齁大家就可以知道說國民黨國民黨在這司法法制委員會裡面他們的一貫手法到目前為止都是完全一樣啦齁這個操作就是這樣子啦齁"},{"start":32988.276,"end":33010.017,"text":"現在討論36條。年金制度好比一列行駛中的火車,而各種年金制度的破產就像是前方的懸崖。如果現在不改革,火車還是會向前開。但如果我們不及早搭建跨越懸崖的大橋,未來火車一定會墜崖。"},{"start":33011.698,"end":33024.403,"text":"年金制度本來就是一個自助互助的制度並不是你的年金我的年金警察的年金軍人的年金而是我們的年金也是我們子孫的年金更是不能倒的年金"},{"start":33027.644,"end":33044.61,"text":"這個是2013年1月2013年1月30號我們馬英九先生所講的一段話那這個跟大家共勉之他提到說這個年金的這個改革"},{"start":33045.973,"end":33058.337,"text":"如果他的必要性、迫切性、複雜性不容忽略,若不趕快解決,傷害的不只是國家財政,影響所及,不只是軍公教勞工,包括社會整體。」這是2012年11月21日馬英九先生的講話。"},{"start":33066.697,"end":33093.95,"text":"這個進行年金改革是勇於承擔責任的表現年金改革應該有長期規劃的打算我國卻成為公務人員退休年齡最低和勞動參與率最低的國家因此現在如果不再推動年金改革制度的話國家利益良善的公務人員退休制度將被扭曲且將無以為繼這個是2013年7月26日考試院院長關中與行政院人事、行政院主管匯報"},{"start":33095.11,"end":33121.824,"text":"所講的話這個看到其他國家紛紛推動年金改革我們卻是果足不前猶豫不決難道我們還要再等待下去付出更大的代價這個是2013年12月31號考試院長關忠在102年度考試院日本年金制度考察報告的序言裡面所提的接下來在這個"},{"start":33125.32,"end":33148.658,"text":"考試院第11屆第227次會議紀錄102年3月7號考試院長關忠表示對於年輕改革不單是有憐憫之心更是以蒼生為念所謂憐憫之心是對全國同胞當我們看到社會上這麼多人"},{"start":33151.691,"end":33166.868,"text":"如何沒有憐憫之心呢?退休制度是根據精算,年金改革追求的是要有更長期、更安定及穩定性,不能讓公務人員感覺到退休制度隨時可改,因此基本架構是不可以隨意變更的。」"},{"start":33170.992,"end":33193.978,"text":"這個我們在在今天的這個這個討論裡面齁這個我們非常遺憾我們最後齁又是又是用這個包裹保留齁然後說要送政黨協商但是我在這裡預言到時候政黨協商如果直播請各位觀眾能夠收看啦齁預言到時候我們的這個現在坐在台上的召委齁這個浩真前檢察官的吳宗憲檢察官到時候主持這個協商齁"},{"start":33197.139,"end":33201.781,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一．委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．"},{"start":33225.012,"end":33238.728,"text":"國會擴權法案到現在顯然我要在這裡告訴大家顯然國民黨沒有學到任何教訓他們不曉得說程序正義事實上是很重要的因為他們如果耐性的讓我們這樣討論然後今天大家也都說要針對這個估算要針對這個"},{"start":33242.831,"end":33265.732,"text":"年輕未來做估算估算表出來之後下次再討論這個東西討論過程中有共識那麽他其實有耐性的今天一次兩次討論之後最後表決還是贏啊打電話叫牛許廷來就贏啊對不對這個這個就就就就很很又不會說因因此因為走完完備的程序國民黨就投票就輸了呢最後林思明還趕到來不及投票哎呀"},{"start":33267.503,"end":33293.855,"text":"那就是反正表決會贏但是你們總是不願意把這個程序走得完整因而引發民怨這個教訓到現在還是國民黨還是沒有學習到所以我是在這邊是這個我們表我們表決書這個是早就早就預期到的但是沒有想到說連年金這不是國會過權喔就連年金這種百年大計這種牽涉到公務人員相對的剝奪這樣子的問題"},{"start":33297.247,"end":33297.367,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":33314.366,"end":33326.498,"text":"我相信全國的觀眾如果現在有在全程看國會頻道直播就可以知道民進黨委員向來就是擾亂議事然後無裡頭的討論還說這是什麼民主就是一個無意義的民主"},{"start":33333.425,"end":33336.648,"text":"大家今天從這個早上一直討論到下午都討論三十五條他還說沒有討論現在我們在進行的是三十六條的討論三十六條是什麼呢他是因為配合著公務人員退休之前撫恤法的名稱改變"},{"start":33351.821,"end":33358.625,"text":"所以我們才要修原來的警察人員條例裡面他原來是只有公務人員撫恤法只是把法案的名稱配合這後來的修法做了文字的調整這樣的一個條文大家討論沒有問題啊我們可以來檢討啊公務人員的退休之前撫恤法你要怎麼去修改那個文字但是講來講去都還是講到這三十五條這就是為什麼"},{"start":33379.797,"end":33405.507,"text":"國民黨不願意跟立法跟民進黨委員來進行討論因為進行了冗長而沒有意義的討論因為你們就是亂討論你們有按照法條的裡面的內容在討論嗎沒有國會改革的所有的條文每一條都是如此所以不要再說我們沒有討論我們已經包容你們太久我覺得你們基本上是"},{"start":33407.335,"end":33436.585,"text":"你們就是沒有意義的討論亂討論還敢說這個是沒有民主我就是比你大怎麼樣你就是比我們大有人在發言的時候不要按麥克風你們有尊重議事規則嗎等一下麻煩你們等翁委員講完嘛那我們不是之前講過不要按麥克風干擾好不好好好講好好講這個妙論請一下"},{"start":33437.369,"end":33450.317,"text":"我要講的就是整個國會改革法案乃至於今天的法案然後到這個隔壁的國會這個國防外交委員會的法案都是一樣的意思只要是你們民進黨認為對的才是對的嗎我們已經經過這麼多的討論大家都有發言那麼你們我們要一直討論到你們滿意才叫做可以通過嗎我覺得實在是太荒謬了"},{"start":33463.223,"end":33486.122,"text":"年金改革本來就是一個壓迫公教人員的改革方案在過去這些年來有多少的公教人員反彈這個法案你們還好意思說這個改革法案是對的我告訴你今天不過只是說是幫警消人員先恢復他們的一些權利拉高他們的所得替代率讓他們可以有好的生活這什麼不對我們現在"},{"start":33488.384,"end":33511.945,"text":"討論的是36條,35條已經討論過了。我希望待會就終止討論,因為這樣的討論繼續下去是沒有意義的討論。下一位就麻煩柯總召發言。我想今天是一個很好的民主教育。那二委員發言好像給你們討論"},{"start":33513.843,"end":33521.615,"text":"憲法賦予立法委員執行權這是憲法規定的不是所謂恩統治的誰給你討論誰給誰的討論要先講清楚"},{"start":33527.779,"end":33547.756,"text":"那在這個憲法底下憲法7條議法委員不可做預算增加所以預算前意是在行政院所以有所謂的憲法第58條行政院把預算送進去結果議會才送到立法院來你這些所有的改革所有年金的這一部分"},{"start":33548.837,"end":33573.643,"text":"除了是行政院提案沒有立法院提案的這點想很清楚這個原點是在這裡所以你不能剝奪行政院對於預算的潛力對於行政院對於所有的這個實質的潛力這個大法官391寫得很清楚585也寫得很清楚今天我們是要從憲政體制上來看這個"},{"start":33575.836,"end":33585.58,"text":"你知道這個都一算之初啊一算之初啊所以這當然要講到錢的問題嘛我聽你講你知道我沒有插你的嘴我是一直很稀有光聽覺得很奇怪的言論而已總的來講的話"},{"start":33602.915,"end":33627.167,"text":"坦白講,我們今天一直阻止一些行為,就是說防止國民黨一直自殺違憲的東西就是違憲。憲法沒有的,沒有可以說是金融橋的。所以一修憲那是十三,把憲法的原則全部改變,所以就是這麼一個簡單的原則而已。好,謝謝。那我們下一位請吳孝委員發言。"},{"start":33630.289,"end":33631.17,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":33656.937,"end":33659.859,"text":"二）委員烏爾元等19人擬具"},{"start":33667.534,"end":33670.777,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":33695.339,"end":33704.588,"text":"我要跟大家說沒有討論不是民主沒有沒有意義的民主我委員只有不願意討論的假民主也沒有什麼是亂討論只有國民黨的不討論"},{"start":33713.755,"end":33734.099,"text":"我們今天下午從兩點二十分開始進入大體討論跟逐條討論請問溫小玲委員你在哪裡?請問牛許廷委員那時候你在哪裡?請問徐宇貞委員徐信義委員林思敏委員你們有趕回來逐條討論嗎?所以當我們認認真真坐在這裡逐條討論的時候在溫小玲不來開會的委員口中變成亂討論"},{"start":33741.608,"end":33747.955,"text":"這是不對的。大家都認真嚴肅的面對年金因為這個修法是不是會加速破產。我們都負責任的要對世代正義為未來現役要領退休金的警察人員我們要負責"},{"start":33761.75,"end":33790.169,"text":"所以今天下午我提出三大我不能同意這個法案的理由第一個違反憲法70條違反大法官釋字391號的解釋立委不能為增加預算之決議第二個違反財政紀律法第五條跟第七條的規範因為你們都包括婦婚及總召下午在主條討論您也不在所以你們都沒有在我必須重新再說我反對這個條文"},{"start":33792.09,"end":33806.378,"text":"二）委員同一個基金同一種繳費基準同一個退府制度都應當一致這才是真正的公平這才是真正的公平"},{"start":33807.959,"end":33831.681,"text":"第三個我們要確保退府基金的永續如果要擴大來照顧退休的警消人員我們更不能偏廢現在現役的警消人員他未來的退休金如果領不到年金破產請問提案的委員能負責嗎"},{"start":33834.42,"end":33839.285,"text":"請問強行要把所得替代率拉到90拉到95的在野黨委員你們能夠為年金因此加速破產你們能負責嗎?比照OECD國家2022年"},{"start":33855.981,"end":33884.354,"text":"條文提代率是61%,這是OECD國家61.4%,台灣如果以2022年的所得替代率的均值是69.23%。我們努力想方設法的來保障退休的公務人員,我們比國際的所得替代率還高了八成。"},{"start":33885.866,"end":33904.371,"text":"這些內容我們在不管是上午的詢答或下午的主條討論我們都認真的面對所以沒有什麼東西叫做亂討論沒有什麼東西叫做沒有意義的討論這一屆的立法院只有不願意討論的國民黨"},{"start":33907.386,"end":33932.496,"text":"我們剛剛提出散會動議是因為我們要終結國民黨這種只會打包協商議案而不進行實質討論的這種惡霸做法從國會擴權法案到現在再一次上演在司法法制委員會再一次上演在我們的國會王小林委員請不要在那裡罵神經病不要進行這樣子的發言"},{"start":33936.306,"end":33940.328,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三三草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":33959.978,"end":33978.99,"text":"但是讓我們的年金加速的破產剛剛我們以初步、初估、初估、初估的數字五十年減少挹注這個基金一千零八十億誰能負責立委大家大筆一揮大筆一揮"},{"start":33981.05,"end":33996.856,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":34003.891,"end":34011.851,"text":"所以剛剛我們審法會員講得很好以為國民黨會獲得教訓這是高估了你們的良知"},{"start":34014.189,"end":34019.992,"text":"三十六條只有文字再跟大家解釋一下好那麻煩牛委員好謝謝主席這都點名了不來講一下這說的不太對現在是一個網路直播的時代"},{"start":34035.12,"end":34061.148,"text":"雖然我們剛剛人在外面跑行程但是我們一路都有在收聽直播所以一直到剛剛主席才是休息之前基本上都對三十五條進行了非常非常充分的討論雙方立場我大概簡單都可以幫大家收束一下民進黨當然主張不希望調整這樣的一個制度有若干若干的理由但我們節省時間就不一一贅述國民黨這邊也有主張啊我們希望退休的警校能夠有更好的這個相關的待遇去保障我今天早上在質詢的時候也講"},{"start":34062.128,"end":34067.25,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議"},{"start":34085.336,"end":34102.334,"text":"好回到法條36條我們要按照逐條審查的精神這個法條就是改善文字而已如果大家對這個法條文字沒有意見就有共識來通過如果連法條文字大家都有不同的想法保留協商我們的立法院之所以有朝野黨團協商的制度就是害怕"},{"start":34102.714,"end":34127.726,"text":"大家意見不合的時候連續耽誤開會的時間造成議事的不效率所以才有黨團協商的一個機制那今天大家都坐在這邊如果要多發言幾次當然沒有問題但是如果已經經歷了一整個下午的發言針對這個法案的立場完全不同而且針鋒相對的時候是不是改由黨團協商有一定的冷靜期政府機關也用這樣的冷靜期補充的資料"},{"start":34129.167,"end":34142.553,"text":"互相來做溝通也許讓人數變少比較能夠有效率的達成共識這才是朝野黨團協商的目的嘛那既然有這樣的機制就善用這樣的機制如此而已啊以上報告謝謝"},{"start":34152.778,"end":34168.733,"text":"這個柯建民因為從來不曉得什麼叫做會場次序所以謝謝主席剛剛給他上一課我們很明確的舉手大家都看到只有柯總召常常視而不見我們要特別強調一下特別強調一下"},{"start":34172.421,"end":34172.621,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":34193.724,"end":34196.527,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":34216.431,"end":34232.322,"text":"但是造成了多少優秀的人才不願意進到這個政府來因為民進黨向來就是用庸才所以也符合他們基本上啊把國家一流人才都排擠掉都不願意進政府啊三流的政府用三流的人才就是這樣"},{"start":34233.303,"end":34235.644,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":34261.431,"end":34282.816,"text":"對民進黨來講這是小case我要特別在這裡要跟一樣啦你們剛剛也沒有在講36條我現在也沒有必要講36條所以我現在特別要強調一件事情今天民進黨我不曉得是懵了還是傻了"},{"start":34283.956,"end":34287.337,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":34312.318,"end":34324.399,"text":"我們的警察、消防跟海巡人員這民進黨所稱的第二陸軍還是第二海軍這些人以後還要為國家做這麼多事情我真的覺得"},{"start":34326.28,"end":34350.751,"text":"五十年一千多億,民進黨真的是懵了?還是傻了?還是健忘了?兩年啊!你們去年前年就超出了八千多億,八千六百多億啊!還在跟警察人員計較一年二十億!我們真的是覺得我們到底要討論什麼事情啊?浪費大家這麼多時間啊!那八千六百多億你要拿下去嘛!講清楚嘛!"},{"start":34352.044,"end":34367.01,"text":"一（二）委員安頓存國的警察消防海巡,難道是錯的嗎?我們在這裏就這麽簡單的事,我本席實在很不想發言啦,但是待會因為柯建民要星海羅盤了,所以我就呼應柯總統他講的,我還沒講完等一下聽"},{"start":34376.778,"end":34383.063,"text":"等我講完再聽討論好不好來我講一下齁我們不能夠違反議事規則因為我們提資討論要先處理的我先講話再先欸你要聽討論我講完再來講你敢這樣搞啊你敢這樣搞"},{"start":34401.336,"end":34408.64,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例三草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":34420.928,"end":34446.585,"text":"好先讓先這樣齁不好意思大家先清明氣和一下本來依照議事程序提出來本來就是優先處理我想我這樣處理沒有錯但是因為好沒關係因為那這樣齁因為大家沒有意見那就麻煩你欸也不要說五分鐘啦因為我今天大家都沒有限制時間嘛那我也不可能說因為這樣要給沒關係啦那我"},{"start":34450.02,"end":34453.664,"text":"本席以下發言請大家注意聽第一個我現在講的韓社範圍包括35 36因為我從現任角度的高度來看這個事情今天我們要談的是這個事情"},{"start":34471.563,"end":34484.836,"text":"議員法院不可以做提案除了政府提案你剝奪政府的預算錢就實質剝奪那憲法有規律70條規律很清楚391、585很多條都規律很清楚所以這我從這個角度來看待"},{"start":34489.554,"end":34503.565,"text":"所以你講的都是絲絲而廢啦。大家都不想要每一個人都說我國人都退休以後都沒收入,這個無可發揮。當然不是夏娥生活,請這個因此你自己想清楚。"},{"start":34504.878,"end":34523.93,"text":"警察現在都有圍牢警察他是公務人員金人事他有年期年限要退休了所以總之差別在這個地方警察要比較金人的話當然那種公務人員真的報酬感都大現在金人現在金人事最低還有6萬8公務人員有2萬8"},{"start":34526.371,"end":34545.736,"text":"同樣是關於人可以有這樣的商業保護感嗎?所以今天要講一個道理,一個身份體制的問題,就是如此而已。所以請不要那樣混淆視聽啦。我跟妳講,我跟妳坦白,妳那時候妙論喔,自己在廁所裡面講一講就好,不要讓她在台邊上亂講一通。"},{"start":34547.745,"end":34558.843,"text":"所以今天我要告訴各位今天也不是說曹偉強人數多少的問題講到的時候是人多和人少都是一樣大家站在這個角度來看待所以拜託各位"},{"start":34560.424,"end":34564.606,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":34586.076,"end":34592.499,"text":"要請任國民黨,讓你們的國民黨去中場自殺。以上是各位好好思考一下。讓不到5分鐘啦。"},{"start":34601.937,"end":34602.897,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":34622.142,"end":34650.265,"text":"那三個小時一直在講這個觀念而已可是觀念能力有時候觀念時刻才有時候只在講話好不好好謝謝那我們現在就先處理國民黨所提的停止討論動議好那請宣讀針對本次司法法制及內政聯席會議所列討論事項第36條件請停止討論是否有當敬請公決提案委員傅坤晴等宣讀完畢"},{"start":34655.276,"end":34674.891,"text":"兩種結招出來的。好,謝謝。好,那針對第36條部分停止討論,請問各位有無異議?反對。好,有異議。好,那因為大家意見不一致,那我們現在進行表決。我們採用舉手表決。那表決前請先清點在場人數。23位。好,在場人數總共24..."},{"start":34683.623,"end":34698.451,"text":"中委員不要這樣子啦好不好我都要抗議了啦那我們現在開始表決而贊成停職討論者請舉手反對者請舉手反對者11位請放下"},{"start":34713.342,"end":34729.508,"text":"表決結果在場出席委員23人贊成者12人反對者11人本件贊成者多數通過第三十六條停止討論。第三十六條"},{"start":34734.056,"end":34748.911,"text":"第三十六條共有委員鄭天才等18人提案委員吳立華等16人提案請問在場委員有異議只是文字修正欸"},{"start":34754.98,"end":34784.324,"text":"你們是否同意?因為只是文字欸因為我們今天齁我跟各位報告一下今天我們總共審查11個條文那已經有9個條文大家都是無異議通過無異議啊可以無異議啊本黨的可以對我們現在是審查第三十條無異議啊才可以啊無異議啊才可以不是他們兩個版本字一模一樣一模一樣"},{"start":34785.913,"end":34813.239,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員"},{"start":34814.923,"end":34815.283,"text":"不要爭辯 不要爭辯"},{"start":34824.949,"end":34840.893,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）"},{"start":34850.129,"end":34850.329,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":34862.739,"end":34866.02,"text":"二）委員三十六條就照鄭天才及武力華委員的版本通過。各位有異議?沒有異議?好 謝謝"},{"start":34893.414,"end":34905.638,"text":"本案主條均已審查完畢,作以下宣告。本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告,提請院會公決。本案須交由黨團協商。"},{"start":34909.27,"end":34930.035,"text":"應會討論時由吳釗偉中線出席說明,條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理。議程討論事項都已經處理完畢,本次會議到此結束,現在散會謝謝大家。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}