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劉主委 彭主委要不要等一下那個主席 因為彭主委還沒回來我們休息時間不夠 廁所太小他還在休息 進來了嗎 還沒彭主委有在會場嗎還是"},{"start":63.069,"end":73.219,"text":"那沒關係我就先開始啦那他回來就請他上來不好意思謝謝中委好院長好主委好關稅站為中美元自貿區"},{"start":75.046,"end":94.782,"text":"同盟成形啊外銷呢要防洗產地內需要降產業衝擊好 來 左院長接下來我要跟你請教的事情跟各位首長請教的事情呢您可以多看一下這個簡報比較容易一目了然那我就請教一下請問您認為川普的關稅清單是目的還是手段"},{"start":96.291,"end":120.64,"text":"他透過關稅是要達到他的一個對國家經濟安全的目的所以可能是一個手段好 我們看看他開出的清單當中台灣上一頁台灣是十大貿易逆差國的第六名結果排名第一的中國也被開了34%但是中國堅決反制所以他報復提到84%結果很清楚最近我們看到了除了中國之外"},{"start":121.4,"end":150.88,"text":"其他的國家都可以等你90天用10%來計算往下看好 那麼中國的目的是圍堵對其他的國家只要求你來談判我們看到川普他說你中國不公平貿易啊說要跟你加徵關稅欸 達到目的啦現在中國跟他彼此一個是145啊一個是84啊但是他對其他的貿易對手國他說我要跟你加徵關稅但是如果你同意對等關稅0也可以 是不是這樣子"},{"start":151.5,"end":179.153,"text":"他的邏輯是不是這樣大體上是他認為可以跟他繼續談判雙方平等互惠的原則底下對等之下可能零都可以對等 好但是有一個國家馬上跳出來說我願意零叫越南但是呢白宮的高級顧問納瓦羅說啊越南不是零就了事喔因為你們有什麼傾銷跟出國補貼涉及到非關稅欺騙您了解他說的非關稅欺騙是越南什麼事嗎"},{"start":181.592,"end":209.293,"text":"所以我們零關稅同盟一旦成行唯獨中國產生的結果首先美中之間已經有關稅的壁壘美國的東西賣不到中國去中國的貨品也賣不到美國來但是中國貨品在美國市場的地位被這些去中的自由貿易同盟所取代同時美國雖然貨賣不到中國去也可以賣給這些自由貿易同盟是不是這樣子出口暢旺"},{"start":210.214,"end":233.29,"text":"反而這個同盟之間貿易往來是不是更創旺 是不是這樣應該是這樣 我想好 是這樣但是呢 美國不是這樣而已喔他說 欸 你不是跟我互相領關稅而已啊你也要對中國超關稅 超高關稅而且呢 你對於特殊商品呢 要管制晶片你不能跟我美國買了 賣到中國去 是不是這樣子所以還有附帶條件"},{"start":235.873,"end":253.279,"text":"所以在這種前提之下,越南縱使零關稅,一樣要嚴防中國製品透過供應鏈。台灣有這個問題,因為在川普2.0的關稅戰當中,中國就提出他的單車可以牽到哪裡?台灣、越南、馬來西亞、柬埔寨跟印度,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":254.144,"end":269.793,"text":"好 那請問一下台灣有沒有可能成為中國製品席產地透過供應鏈銷到美國去有沒有可能對未來的這種情勢的發展我們已經設想到在未來會嚴密的嚴控有五大方案嘛這五大方案夠不夠"},{"start":271.536,"end":299.101,"text":"方案是方案 臨時變動的應該會是很多各種手段會不斷的推陳出新我跟您提醒一下 我這幾年常去越南有台商的電子廠在越南的河內弄一個組裝廠他從中國那邊把原來在中國昆山蘇州的貨供應鏈的貨都用陸運24小時送抵河內 關鍵的切面從台灣去出口當然是打著越南的Mark"},{"start":299.653,"end":326.298,"text":"那這裡面他這些其他在中國的供應鏈這些廠商透過入運這是美國疑慮的地方因為越南跟中國的入運的海關資料不透明但是如果說台灣的晶片賣到了檳城檳城從世界各國拿了零組件透過國際的港部跟航商美國知道你檳城馬來西亞賣給我的有多少成分來自哪裡是不是這樣子"},{"start":327.113,"end":334.744,"text":"所以越南是美國最嚴格防止的台灣要繼續的嚴格防止棲產地對不對好往下看"},{"start":335.515,"end":360.022,"text":"所以呢我們除此之外我們還要政策採購改善台美的貿易的差額首先在零關稅之後本來黃小玉牛肉我們就擴大進口嘛對不對那如果不受關稅影響的像軍備像火雞台灣人不吃美國的火雞肉關稅零也沒有差所以這個是屬於政策決定你會政策決定叫去買美國的火雞肉嗎會不會如果沒有那個市場"},{"start":360.902,"end":384.269,"text":"那會不會增加跟美國買軍備 譬如說買F35可不可以就要考慮我們的財政跟國防的需要好 有需要 那最後哪一種剛性需求就是本來就要用天然氣都要用LNG另外呢 我們的波音客機Airbus最近華航才簽了Airbus 簽了實價這個可不可以改跟美國買 有人在討論 對不對天然氣本來跟澳洲買 可不可以考慮跟美國買 有沒有考慮"},{"start":385.484,"end":392.346,"text":"我們正在盤點這些個未來可以擴大把美國當作一個世界市場這樣來購買儘管這樣子擴大採購我們來看一下但是你們現在880億他的思維呢工業製品700億農業180億是針對出口還是針對進口"},{"start":404.929,"end":426.296,"text":"不是針對產業的協助產業出口遇到阻礙高關稅阻礙協助產業升級我了解協助產業向外貨產市場主要目的是針對這些出口產業遇到了高關稅的阻礙後我們要輔導他嘛但是如果是零關稅的話方向跟對象要反過來了要去思考這些會被美國進口的產品所取代的產業是不是這樣子"},{"start":427.674,"end":444.581,"text":"理論上是這樣 是這樣那我們來看一下農產品好了農產品目前我們從美國進口這五大項當中黃小玉不用說牛肉不用說有沒有注意到雞肉是一個項目因為雞肉我們本國產的四成美國進口的35%但是如果說關稅從20%調下來你覺得雞肉會不會受到影響"},{"start":449.415,"end":463.432,"text":"會不會最可能受到的影響就是雞肉就是怎麼樣美國的零關稅進口來的雞肉取代了本土的雞肉是不是所以除了這個之外還有什麼農產品會受到零關稅的進口影響"},{"start":466.121,"end":495.152,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 就是我昨天已經問過你了我要聽聽院長的齁 院長我們現在的稻米是這樣子齁我們自產115萬公噸在WTO的配額之下呢14萬公噸以內是零關稅美國已經賣了6萬多公噸了平均銷價29元零關稅如果現在美國對我們是零關稅這29塊就是軍價但是我們自產的稻米呢是50塊一公斤所以會不會受影響如果是這樣的"},{"start":496.472,"end":524.544,"text":"關稅的調整跟結果當然是受影響的所以請你指示旁邊的農業部部長剛才的880億其中的110億對120億呢180億本來是要協助出口受挫的現在要調整思維萬一零關稅要用來輔導這些受進口影響的院長是不是這樣子我們是對業者因為美國關稅調整而受影響的業者不管是"},{"start":526.231,"end":532.688,"text":"出口還是進口是不是這樣如果真的受到影響我們就會在...如果受到進口影響也要輔導部長有沒有了解了"},{"start":534.962,"end":561.66,"text":"我跟委員報告一百八十億是針對出口的產品那這個您剛才講這個道明的部分是未來有可能從美國進來的部分如果有任何的調整的時候的一個影響但是從農業部的角度來講因為農業的答案我昨天聽過了我現在要院長的答案除了農業產品之外還有哪四種產業是受到進口零關稅美國製品的衝擊農業產品汽車保健食品還有紡織品"},{"start":564.778,"end":576.768,"text":"我從經濟部的資料上調出來在我們屏東這四種產業呢我們的保健營養食品從業人員380人我們的成衣製造外銷有200人汽車大概有2800人總共有3360個人未來如果美國銷台灣是零關稅這3360個家庭會受到影響院長 是不是指示相關部會來協助盤查跟協助家語輔導"},{"start":590.031,"end":611.434,"text":"所以這個零關稅的前提是不是存在 這個還是一個考量我們不就是要追求零關稅嗎 院長從零關稅談起 不是我們去追求 零關稅談起我剛才已經說了 美國的目的叫創造一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟這是他的目的所以很可能零關稅是我們可能必要考慮的一種結果 是不是這樣子"},{"start":612.694,"end":632.699,"text":"但是我們也知道經濟學者財政學者包括政治工作人員不可能在一夕之間一夕之間就是零關稅不可能一夕之間是零關稅沒有錯所以給你九十天好好想清楚來我們往下看全力爭取改善美國對等關稅我們這裡提到我們有談判關稅要幹嘛要擴大對美採購"},{"start":633.899,"end":634.72,"text":"目前我們並沒有朝向這個方式在做思考"},{"start":653.461,"end":678.234,"text":"現在這個階段目前我們持有的美債全世界排名第11名其實美國的立場是這樣子他的美國的債務目前單單是今年到期的9.2兆大概是美國聯邦總收入5兆的兩倍在6月底到期也有6兆多這些到期的美債對他產生什麼影響他要怎麼還"},{"start":679.394,"end":702.319,"text":"他當然還啊加稅嗎現在還沒有然後呢政府減少開支政府瘦身那是明年度的事情他最大的需求就怎樣降低債息所以呢就有一個人我們來談一下齁如果對美談判川普政府要求說台幣對美國美元升值或者說央行的外匯儲備改持低利的美債你認為哪一個對台灣的經濟影響較衝擊較輕"},{"start":705.502,"end":716.314,"text":"匯率的調整是一個未來可能有的你認為匯率比較影響小我們對於匯率A跟B哪一個影響比較輕我覺得我們不要在這裡談好 那我們往下看"},{"start":718.82,"end":738.608,"text":"待會我要請那個彭主委再來因為昨天我已經問過總裁了好美國的白宮經濟顧問委員會有個主將米倫他去年11月發表一個用戶指南叫重組全國貿易體系裡面他提到說關稅本身不是目的而是手段他在7號的時候接受採訪講了五個點第一他不接受報復"},{"start":739.861,"end":767.098,"text":"第二你要打開市場不能有不公平的行為第三呢他要各國提高國防支出和針對美國軍購大概這個我們都沒問題第四他說要投資美國這我們也做了他說第五直接捐還給美國財政部這什麼意思這什麼意思好大家來猜猜看往下看敏倫的意思是這樣他說他要要求大量持有美債的這些盟友貿易對手他說請你跟我"},{"start":768.298,"end":780.45,"text":"換新債的時候跟我買超長期的50年的或100年的低利了但是我們的外匯如果去買這種超長期的美債影響到我們的流動性這種沒有市場"},{"start":781.479,"end":810.052,"text":"對不對 那遇到了我們需要去調節匯率的時候就會受到限制米倫說沒關係我給你一個買權給你一個快速換回美元現金的官方渠道叫做report類似swap的一種回購機制如果你真的需要錢跟我掉頭順就好了結果呢 他認為一旦接受這個條件您知道結果是什麼會形成一個以美元為主的去中的準金融聯盟這是米倫的設想好 我往下走"},{"start":811.004,"end":836.709,"text":"米倫的方案我算給你看他說台灣的外匯存本比加進5800億如果我們合理的外匯準備是4000到4500億我們可能有1000億的美金可以在美債到期之後改持低利的長期美債假設這些美債按照現在美債的利息4%來算我們假設算2%我們一年大概會讓利讓20億美元的利息大概折合台幣600億到660億"},{"start":838.849,"end":840.013,"text":"請問601到661有沒有小於現在的880億"},{"start":844.209,"end":873.305,"text":"有沒有小問題 數學問題嘛哪個比較大這個我們還在精算我們沒有辦法在這裡跟委員做這樣的答案我了解 你要想一下我要說的是說跟美國的談判有各種的可能性了解他們的談判背後的這些幕僚這些政策的思維各種的可能才會出現說連我們的外匯儲備的美債都有可能是一個談判的籌碼剛剛總裁說了籌碼 對不對剛剛你跟邱委員講了嘛籌碼跟準備不是一樣嗎好 往下走"},{"start":874.079,"end":897.895,"text":"所以如果我們拿到了超長期的低利美債我們拿到什麼美國現在30年期的美債只要每掉1%它就可以淨賺20%對台外來講我雖然拿了1000億掛個洞把它買起來但是當我需要的時候我還是可以短期的美元的流通需求我可以跟美國的央行免費去調度也避開了短期的利率風險"},{"start":900.066,"end":908.089,"text":"院長 您旁邊是總裁另外那邊是主委後面還有一個金融專家是我們彭主委請他們三個回去研究看看好不好"},{"start":909.856,"end":934.823,"text":"我們過去對於美債的投資也有發生過不好的一個結果好請你研究我最後要做結論了昨天今天美國股市股匯債全部解體川普的任務川普任務有兩個一個是削減赤字一個是增加就業增加就業要增加投資跟減稅改善他中西部的弱勢選民削減赤字要解決貿易逆差他對中國的不公平貿易他用了高單位稅來解決之後"},{"start":935.37,"end":959.079,"text":"他現在剩下什麼問題剩下財政支出的問題要減少負債有了一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟之後他的貿易逆差渴望解決但是遇下來的問題我有三個事情要請院長承諾第一請盤點消美主要產品上游供應鏈中有沒有含有中國製品請迅速的提出調整對策可以嗎"},{"start":960.45,"end":960.87,"text":"這個也會做"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1045,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（16時44分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長及官員、會場工作伙伴、媒體記者女士先生。先有請行政院卓院長，因為總談判代表楊政務委員不能上台，就請國發會劉主委；經濟部長跟農業部長昨天質詢過了，我就不請上台，但是可以幫助、協助院長一下；另外也請彭金隆主委代表金管會上台。一共三位，請卓院長、劉主委跟彭主委。"],["主席：請卓院長、劉主委、彭主委備詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要不要等一下？主席，等一等，因為彭主委還沒有回來，我們休息時間不夠，廁所太少。"],["主席：喔，他進來了嗎？還沒？彭主委有在會場嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那沒關係，我就先開始，他回來就請他上台。"],["主席：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：不好意思，謝謝。鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好、主委好。關稅戰圍中，美元自貿區同盟成形；外銷要防洗產地，內需要降產業衝擊。卓院長，接下來我要向您及各位首長請教的事情，您可以多看一下簡報，比較容易一目了然。請問您認為川普的關稅清單是目的還是手段？"],["卓院長榮泰：他透過關稅是要達到他對國家經濟安全的目的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以可能是一個手段？我們來看看，他開出的清單當中，臺灣是十大貿易逆差國的第六名，排名第一的中國被開出34%，但是中國堅決反制，所以他報復性的提高到84%。結果很清楚，最近我們看到了，除了中國之外，其他國家都可以暫緩90天，用10%來計算。","對中國的目的是圍堵，對其他國家則是要求他們來談判。我們看到川普說中國不公平貿易，就要加徵關稅，達到目的了啊，現在中國跟他彼此一個是145%、一個是84%；但是對其他貿易對手國則是說要加徵關稅，但如果你同意對等關稅，零也可以，是不是這樣子？他的邏輯是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：大體上是，他認為可以跟他繼續談判，雙方在平等互惠原則底下，願意這樣談。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，對等之下，可能零都可以對等。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是有一個國家馬上跳出來說：我願意零，叫做越南，但是白宮高級顧問納瓦羅說越南不是零就了事，因為他們有傾銷跟出口補貼，涉及到非關稅欺騙。院長，您了解他說的非關稅欺騙是指越南的什麼事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該指的是違規轉運洗產地的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：洗產地！好，所以我們零關稅同盟一旦成形，圍堵中國後會產生什麼結果？首先，美中之間已經有關稅壁壘，美國的東西賣不到中國去，中國的貨品也賣不到美國來，但是中國貨品在美國市場的地位被這些去中的自由貿易同盟所取代，同時，美國雖然貨賣不到中國去，但可以賣給這些自由貿易同盟，是不是這樣？出口暢旺，反而同盟之間的貿易往來是不是更暢旺？是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是這樣，我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，是這樣。但是美國不只是這樣而已喔，他要求的不是只跟美國互相零關稅而已，還要對中國超高關稅，而且對於特殊商品要管制，像晶片不能跟美國買了，然後賣到中國去，是不是這樣子？所以還有附帶條件。因此在這個前提之下，越南縱使零關稅，一樣要嚴防中國製品透過供應鏈銷美，同樣的，臺灣也有這個問題，因為在川普2.0關稅戰當中，中國就提出他的單車可以遷到哪裡？臺灣、越南、馬來西亞、柬埔寨跟印度，是不是這樣子？請問一下，臺灣有沒有可能成為中國製品洗產地、透過供應鏈而銷到美國去？有沒有可能？"],["卓院長榮泰：對未來這種情勢的發展，我們已經有設想到，在未來會嚴密的嚴控當中……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有五大方案嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這五大方案夠不夠？"],["卓院長榮泰：方案是方案，臨時變動的應該也會很多，各種手段會不斷的推陳出新。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟您提醒一下，我這幾年常去越南，有臺商的電子廠在越南河內弄一個組裝廠，他從中國那邊，把原來在中國崑山、蘇州生產供應鏈的貨透過陸運24小時送抵河內，關鍵的晶片從臺灣去，出口時當然打的是越南的mark，其他在中國供應鏈的這些廠商會透過陸運這樣做，這是美國疑慮的地方，因為越南跟中國陸運的海關資料不透明，但是如果臺灣的晶片賣到了檳城，檳城從世界各國拿了零組件，透過國際的港埠跟航商，美國知道你馬來西亞檳城賣給我的有多少成分來自哪裡，是不是這樣子？所以越南是美國最嚴格防止的，臺灣要繼續的嚴格防止洗產地，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。除此之外，我們還要政策採購，改善臺美的貿易差額。首先，在零關稅之後，本來就有進口的黃、小、玉、牛肉我們就擴大進口，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果不受關稅影響的，像軍備，像火雞，臺灣人不吃美國的火雞肉，關稅零也沒有差，所以這個是屬於政策決定，你會政策決定去買美國的火雞肉嗎？會不會？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果沒有那個市場，相信也沒有業者……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那會不會增加跟美國買軍備，譬如買F-35？可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：這要考慮我們的財政跟國防的需要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有需要。最後還有一種剛性需求，就是本來就要用，天然氣LNG得要用，另外我們的波音客機，最近華航才跟Airbus簽約，簽了10架，這個可不可以改跟美國買，有人在討論，對不對？天然氣本來跟澳洲買，可不可以考慮跟美國買、有沒有考慮？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們正在盤點這些未來可以擴大，把美國當作一個世界市場，這樣來購買的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。儘管這樣子擴大採購，我們來看一下，但是你們現在提出880億的思維，工業製品700億，農業180億，是針對出口還是針對進口？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是針對產業的協助，我們幫……"],["鍾委員佳濱：產業出口遇到高關稅的阻礙……"],["卓院長榮泰：協助產業升級，協助產業向外擴展市場。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我了解，主要目的是針對出口產業遇到了高關稅的阻礙後，我們要輔導他嘛。但是如果是零關稅的話，方向跟對象就要反過來了，要去思考這些會被美國進口的產品所取代的產業，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：理論上是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，是這樣，那我們來看一下農產品好了。目前我們從美國進口這五大項農產品當中，黃、小、玉不用說，牛肉不用說，有沒有注意到雞肉是一個項目，因為雞肉我們本國產的雞肉占四成，美國進口的占35%，但是如果它的關稅從20%調下來，你覺得雞肉會不會受到影響？會不會？最可能受到影響的就是雞肉，就是美國零關稅進口來的雞肉取代了本土的雞肉，是不是？除了這個之外，還有什麼農產品會受到零關稅進口的影響？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我昨天已經問過你，我要聽聽院長的。","院長，我們現在的稻米是這樣，我們自產115萬公噸，在WTO的關稅配額之下，14萬公噸以內是零關稅，美國已經賣了六萬多公噸了，平均銷價29元零關稅。如果現在美國對我進口是零關稅，這29塊就是均價，但是我們自產的稻米是50塊一公斤，所以會不會受影響？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果關稅的調整結果是這樣，當然是受影響，但我們會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以請你指示旁邊的農業部部長，剛才講的880億其中的110億，不是，120億……"],["陳部長駿季：180億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：180億，本來是要協助出口受挫的產業，現在要調整思維，萬一零關稅，要用來輔導這些受進口影響的產業。院長，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是對業者，因為美國關稅調整而受影響的業者……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不管是出口還是進口，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：他如果真的受到影響，我們就會在我們的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果受到進口的影響，也要輔導，部長有沒有了解了？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，180億是針對出口的產品，您剛剛講稻米部分，是未來有可能從美國進來的稻米，如果有任何關稅調整時的影響，但是從……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：從農業部的角度來講……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，您的答案我昨天聽過了，我現在要院長的答案。","除了農業產品之外，還有哪四種產業是受到進口零關稅的美國製品的衝擊？農漁產品、汽車、保健食品還有紡織品。我從經濟部調出來的資料上，在我們屏東，這四種產業的從業人員：保健營養食品的從業人員有380人，成衣製造外銷有200人，汽車大概有2,800人，總共有3,360人。未來如果美國銷臺灣是零關稅，這3,360個家庭會受到影響。院長，是不是要指示相關部會來協助盤查跟協助輔導？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個零關稅的前提是不是存在，這個還是有待考量……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們不就是要追求零關稅嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：從零關稅談起，不是我們去追求，從零關稅談起，這是我們談判的態度……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我剛才已經說了，美國的目的是要創造一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟，這是他的目的，所以很可能零關稅是我們要考慮的一種結果，是不是這樣子？一種結果。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們也知道，經濟學者、財政學者，包括政治工作者，都知道不可能一夕之間……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我了解，但是你必須把這個劇本放在你的因應對策當中。"],["卓院長榮泰：不可能一夕之間就是零關稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不可能一夕之間是零關稅，沒有錯，所以給你90天好好想清楚。","我們接著往下看，全力爭取改善美國對等關稅，這裡有提到，談判關稅包括了要擴大對美採購；要擴大對美投資；要排除非關稅障礙；還要解決洗產地的問題。其中有報紙報導臺灣大部分的外匯準備是購買美國公債的，這也可以作為關稅下降的條件，怎麼做？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前我們並沒有朝向這個方式在做思考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，現在這個階段並沒有，因為整個狀況非常的不穩定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前我們持有的美債世界排名第11名，其實美國的立場是這樣子，美債單單今年到期的有9.2兆，大概是美國聯邦總收入5兆的2倍；6月底到期的也有六兆多，這些到期的美債對它產生什麼影響？它要怎麼還？它當然要還啊！加稅嗎？現在還沒有；然後政府減少開支、政府瘦身，那是明年度的事情，它最大的需求就是怎樣降低債息，所以就有一個人，我們來談一下，如果是對美談判，川普政府的要求是臺幣兌美元升值，或是央行的外匯儲備改持低利的美債，你認為哪一個對臺灣的經濟影響、衝擊較輕？"],["卓院長榮泰：匯率的調整是一個未來可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為匯率影響比較小？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對於匯率……"],["鍾委員佳濱：A跟B哪一個影響比較輕？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我覺得我們不要在這裡談任何關於談判的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們再往下看，待會請彭主委再來答復，因為昨天我已經問過總裁了。美國白宮經濟顧問委員會主席叫米倫，他去年的11月發表了「用戶指南：重組全國貿易體系」裡面提到了，關稅本身不是目的而是手段，而他在7號接受採訪時講了五個點：第一，他不接受報復；第二，你要打開市場，不能有不公平的行為；第三，他要各國提高國防支出和對美國軍購，大概這個我們都沒問題；第四，他說要投資美國，這個我們也做了；第五，他說直接捐款給美國財政部。這什麼意思？這什麼意思？大家來猜猜看，我們往下看，米倫的意思是這樣，他說他要要求大量持有美債的這些盟友、貿易對手，請你跟我換新債的時候跟我買超長期的、50年的或100年的低利的，但是我們的外匯如果去買這種超長期的美債，影響到我們的什麼？流動性嘛，這種沒有市場嘛，對不對？遇到我們需要去調節匯率的時候就會受到限制。米倫說，沒關係，我給你一個買權，給你一個快速換回美元現金的官方渠道，叫做repo，類似swap的一種回購機制，如果你真的需要錢，跟我調頭寸就好了，結果他認為一旦接受這個條件，你知道結果是什麼嗎？會形成一個以美元為主的去中的準金融聯盟，這是米倫的設想。","我們往下走，米倫的方案我算給你看，他說臺灣的外匯存底將近5,800億，如果我們合理的外匯準備是4,000到4,500億，我們可能有1,000億的美金可以在美債到期之後改持低利的長期美債，假設這些美債按照現在美債的利息4%來算，我們假設算2%，我們1年大概會讓利，讓20億美元的利息，大概折合臺幣600億到660億，請問600億到660億有沒有小於現在的880億？有沒有小於？我問你數學問題，哪個比較大？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我們還在精算，我沒有辦法在這裡跟委員做這樣的答復。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我了解，你要想一下。我要說的是，跟美國的談判有各種的可能性，了解他們談判背後這些幕僚的政策思維、各種的可能，才會出現連我們外匯儲備的美債都有可能是一個談判的籌碼，剛剛總裁也說了籌碼，對不對？剛剛你跟邱委員講了嘛，籌碼跟準備不是一樣嗎？再往下走，所以如果我們拿到超長期的低利美債，我們拿到什麼？美國現在30年期的美債，只要每掉1%，它就可以淨賺20%，對臺灣來講，我雖然拿了1,000億，挖個洞把它埋起來，但是當我需要的時候，短期的美元的流通需求，我可以跟美國的央行免費去調度，也避開了短期的利率風險。院長，您旁邊是總裁，另外那邊是主委，後面那位金融專家是我們彭主委，請他們3個回去研究看看好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們過去對於美債的投資也有發生過不好的結果。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請你研究，我最後要做結論了……"],["卓院長榮泰：昨天、今天美國股匯債全部下跌。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，我把它講完，時間快到了。川普的任務有兩個，一個是削減赤字，一個是增加就業；增加就業就要增加投資跟減稅，改善中西部的弱勢選民，削減赤字要減少貿易逆差，他對中國的不公平貿易用了高關稅來解決之後，他現在剩下什麼問題？剩下財政支出的問題，要減少負債。有了一個零關稅的自由貿易同盟之後，他的貿易逆差可望解決，但是遇下來的問題，我有三個事情要請院長承諾，第一，請盤點銷美主要產品上游供應鏈中有沒有含有中國製品，並迅速提出調整對策，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個也會做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，若我國對美國關稅降到零，請協助我國的農漁畜產品及製造業因應產業衝擊，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個前提不一定會發生。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有損失……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果對美談判造成美……被關機了，好吧！最後一個命題就請你帶回去研究。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":13,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1143401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1143401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}