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蔡處長"},{"start":2162.096,"end":2181.204,"text":"全序部法規司專門委員廖康儒委員內政部民政司檢任視察、檢疫委員視察教育部人事處專門委員謝正凱文化部"},{"start":2182.574,"end":2204.804,"text":"影視流行音樂發展師專委陳怡靜行政院人事行政總處培訓考用專門委員賴佳陽組織人力處視察陳文綺現在進行協商司法法制、交通委員會併案"},{"start":2206.921,"end":2221.159,"text":"審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案等四案及院會晉附二讀委員賴世寶等24人委員李燕秀等23人提案"},{"start":2221.88,"end":2241.066,"text":"法案審查會於5月1日審查完略,審查進行第四條含修正動議、第八條及第十條均保留送院會處理,並決議院會討論前交由黨團協商另院會第十二次會議將委員賴世寶等24人提案盡負二讀等14次會議"},{"start":2243.024,"end":2258.308,"text":"第十四次會議再將委員李燕秀等23人提案淨複二讀與相關提案併案協商以上共計六案與今日併案進行協商協商時請參閱協商條文對照表審查報告及淨複二讀提案關係文書與會委員若有修正動議或機關有建議內容請提出書面應發現場進行討論"},{"start":2271.072,"end":2291.927,"text":"現在開始進行協商第四條審查會保留委員提案及修正動議共六個版本應願會交付禁服二讀併案協商委員提案兩個版本現在開始協商現在請各黨團代表表示意見莊委員"},{"start":2295.104,"end":2317.159,"text":"謝謝朝委還有我們在場各黨團的一個代表我們今天這個黨團協商我想我還是不厭其煩的再來提出來請各位去看到第54頁的部分54頁這個地方大家就會記這個是54對54傅崐萁等33人提案這個部分各位把它去看到第二"},{"start":2318.22,"end":2343.266,"text":"提名同意程序上審查會通過的名單對行政院長吳絕對的拘束力應以符合大法官釋字第613號的解釋文這個其實我光看這個提案的說明我就覺得怪怪的啦這個就其實有點弱調了嘛你如果真的要認為說這沒有侵害到行政權的話我相信在整個立法理由裡面不會去講說審查會通過了"},{"start":2345.166,"end":2364.627,"text":"這些名單對行政院長沒有拘束力也符合大法官釋字第613大法官會議613號依我的潛見的一個看法就是說你這個整個通訊傳播委員會它到底不是屬於行政機關的一環如果大家肯認它是屬於行政的一環的話"},{"start":2366.149,"end":2392.668,"text":"到底行政院對於通傳會委員在人事決定權是不是夠完整基於權力分立這樣的一個原則立法院當然可以來對整個行使同意權這些行政院送過來施予一定的一個限制來加以制衡這個本席可以贊同但是完全去把它給實質剝奪或者說進而把它給取代的話這個我想可能會有很大的一個問題"},{"start":2393.871,"end":2405.341,"text":"那我看這個整個傅總昭、傅坤祺的這個條文裡面大家可能也去看到了所以我到現在還是沒有來,不然我想問問他為什麼說我們審查會通過了對行政院長沒有技術力應該是符合這邏輯我是不通,我看其實有點心虛"},{"start":2416.803,"end":2431.174,"text":"到底要不要保留給行政院長對獨立機關重要人士唯一的一個決定權施予他什麼樣的一個制衡設什麼樣的限制本席倒沒有什麼意見但完全去把它剝奪這個可能就怪怪的啦那從過去組織法這個違憲的理由裡面"},{"start":2435.357,"end":2459.295,"text":"我相信大家會提到就是說這個會不會剝奪到行政院的一個人事的一個任命權或者是剩下形式上提名跟任命權簡單來講以前都是提名加審查是政黨比例那現在很多委員的版本裡面提名歸行政院但是都是給足了審查委員實質的一個審查權而且還是按照政黨的比例去做一個分配"},{"start":2460.075,"end":2484.091,"text":"這個跟過去大法官實質631號解釋其實人事決定權的部分實質去剝奪沒有什麼樣的一個兩樣過去你看我給大家回憶一下2006年宣告違憲這樣的一個設計就是在2005年的時候到底發生什麼事當初審查委員是按照政黨比例國民黨4、民進黨4、親民黨2、台聯1共11會審查NGC的委員"},{"start":2491.356,"end":2495.24,"text":"審查NC委員國民黨6、民進黨6、親民黨2、台聯1、行政院本身有3人審查委員至少7位同意,結果投票,投了三輪"},{"start":2508.471,"end":2510.052,"text":"審查委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案"},{"start":2530.276,"end":2548.095,"text":"我把它看那個名單看一看過去全部都是一時之選你知道邵玉明博士、王宗瑜中綱董事長、薛香川國會副主委、蔡薰雄國政基金會執行長全部都是社會選黨可是碰到投票的時候每一個人都乖乖現行到了第二輪投票的時候審查委員也只有民進黨"},{"start":2551.579,"end":2575.862,"text":"投完後面的四票因為第一次就投出了選出了九位而已那國民黨、親民黨還是沒有完整去投票那最後選出了三位直到第三輪的時候才投完那我的意思就是說嚴格去做審查第三輪投完不是不可以但是從這個過程我們可以看得出來其實到最後還是政黨大家自己的一個立場那外界到最後"},{"start":2577.343,"end":2596.468,"text":"審查完被外界批評就是說這個審查不公正為什麼社會賢達或者說經歷學經歷完整的委員都讓人家懷疑我記得後來啊被選出來的委員就清大電機系的呃呃呂教授系主任他說深深感受到對委員造成黨派陰影跟被愚弄所以拒絕被提名"},{"start":2597.288,"end":2618.309,"text":"電信學者林依萍、陳明憲、傳播學者翁秀琦等接著請辭,最後就任只有九位我要提出這一段跟大家做回憶的就是說其實如果NCC淪為黨派干預的結果的話原本需要各個領域裡面的專長的或者實務背景的審查要件"},{"start":2619.17,"end":2634.799,"text":"政黨一介入其實到最後可能把這些專長都不管你了立法院在行使同意權的時候管你有什麼專長大家都政黨有自己的一個看法所以連當時沒有擔任主委的蘇永青就國民黨所推薦的蘇教授他是怎麼講的他說電信學者請辭會造成嚴重的後果"},{"start":2639.682,"end":2644.165,"text":"因為NCC委員組成有傳播、法律、電信、經濟這領域四條腿缺一條你就不得動談所以我要把這些再重新讓大家來做一個回顧做一個回顧以上但是4至第613的部分我期待大家可以再好好的"},{"start":2663.118,"end":2683.112,"text":"再仔細來看一下否則真的到最後來講的話可能我們出去了以後還是會步上上一次2006年又抵觸到整個四次大法官大法官憲法法庭的一個這樣一個解釋以上提供各黨派的委員來做一個參考 謝謝好 謝謝鍾委員那個 那黃委員沒關係 因為剛剛黃委員說先讓黃委員"},{"start":2692.795,"end":2715.137,"text":"黃委員謝謝主席針對有關於這一次NCC組織法上面的修正台灣民眾黨黨團的立場非常的清楚我們認為在整個提名階段的時候符合4至613號解釋就必須讓我們的行政院院長"},{"start":2716.803,"end":2720.732,"text":"讓行政院院長他一開始的時候有推薦人選的權利"},{"start":2725.213,"end":2749.244,"text":"剛剛鍾月璇委員提到4-613號解釋我覺得非常好大家在看4-613解釋的時候當初到底是怎麼宣告違憲的要一體的來看什麼叫做要一體的來看當初是怎麼設計的當初是連推薦人選的時候我們當時的立法者所設計的都是政黨比例推薦"},{"start":2750.484,"end":2776.92,"text":"人選的第一個階段就是由政黨比例推薦18個人選裡面行政院院長只能夠推3個這個是在4-613號解釋被詬病最深的我大概念一下好了因為我們在討論大法官解釋就要認真討論大法官解釋了大法官在解釋理由當中清楚地講"},{"start":2778.561,"end":2793.138,"text":"但是依通傳會組織法第四條、第二項、第三項的規定通傳會委員僅由各政黨依其在立法院所佔席次比例共推薦15名"},{"start":2794.68,"end":2807.612,"text":"行政院院長推薦三名然後交由各政黨所佔席次比例推薦的學者專家組成的審查會以五分之三與二分之一的兩輪多數決審查"},{"start":2810.509,"end":2828.405,"text":"他認為為什麼會實質的剝奪行政院院長的提名權因為他說在整體選任程序中行政院院長竟然只能夠提六分之一的通傳會委員候選人推薦權其人事決定權實質上"},{"start":2830.598,"end":2856.014,"text":"可謂業已幾乎完全遭到剝奪大法官主要在指責的是這一點那因此我們並不贊成依照政黨的比例來推選NCC的委員因為他會違反我們對於NCC他本身具有獨立專業性的要求但是"},{"start":2857.981,"end":2875.687,"text":"我們當說要去確保NCC獨立專業的要求不要跨越憲法紅線在這樣的情況之下我們就要看實際的狀況到底是什麼什麼叫做實際的狀況到底是什麼前面完全交由行政院院長提名"},{"start":2877.079,"end":2896.787,"text":"後面完全交由立法院只要過半我們現在的表決權數是只要過半的立法院同意權就可以行使當一黨完全執政一黨獨大的情況下就是行政院院長他要提什麼最後就會過什麼"},{"start":2899.161,"end":2927.015,"text":"我想在過去只要有全面執政經驗的現實上面運作的狀況跟結果就是這個樣子嘛完全沒有例外嘛那這樣子選出來的NCC委員真的符合我們在4-613號裡面以及我們在通傳會組織法裡面要有獨立性要有專業性然後得到社會的信任有嗎?"},{"start":2928.496,"end":2944.489,"text":"真的有嗎?我們現在的NCC委員他們全力的行使他們的組成他們提名到通過的過程真的取得社會對他們專業性跟獨立性的信賴嗎?沒有啊"},{"start":2945.509,"end":2968.561,"text":"我個人的潛見是沒有啦那當然這個社會上每一個公民心裡都有一把尺嘛現在的機制挑出來的NCC委員是有符合四字613號他所揭示的要有獨立性、要有專利、要有專業性真的有嗎我再說一次啊我認為沒有啊為什麼沒有"},{"start":2969.847,"end":2995.106,"text":"最明顯的例子嘛當初NCC委員會號稱專業獨立的NCC委員不是通過了那個台數科生活台還是綜合台可以搞新聞台的事情嗎怎麼隔了一個禮拜了以後蘇貞昌震怒隔了禮拜了以後NCC自己把自己的案子前面已經通過了"},{"start":2996.854,"end":3024.24,"text":"然後後來又把他給否決掉這不是政治利介入請問什麼是政治利介入哪裡來的NCC的專業性跟獨立性啊全部都是政黨的手伸到NCC裡面啊斧鑿斑斑啊所以針對有關於這一次通傳會組織法的修正我再說明一次啊台灣民眾黨並不贊成"},{"start":3026.803,"end":3048.339,"text":"按照政黨的比例來推薦人選這件事情我們並不贊成但你要100%完全維持現行的機制的話那我就邀請大家冷靜的想一想現行的機制審出來的NCC委員"},{"start":3050.478,"end":3078.719,"text":"真的有反映社會上面對於NCC專業獨立的要求嗎?我認為並沒有那也正是因為這個樣子我們才會在委員會審查的過程當中我們提出一個修正動議那這個修正動議其實我們只是善意的善意的在不同的版本當中提出一個大家各個不同黨派的委員可以為國"},{"start":3080.475,"end":3106.225,"text":"好好的冷靜思考的一個可能性要提什麼樣子的人完全交由行政院院長你要推薦什麼樣的人行政院院長可以推薦但為了要維持NCC委員的專業性以及超越黨派社會上面期待的要求讓我們認為他所推薦的人有一個審查會的組成機制"},{"start":3107.588,"end":3133.462,"text":"那裡面依照各個不同政黨他們所推薦出來的專家學者組成審查會組成審查會那最後行政院院長只要提的人真的是社會上面有輕望大家都認可這個審查會也不敢隨意否決阿因為如果隨意否決的話在政治上面要付出代價的嘛"},{"start":3134.875,"end":3152.894,"text":"你現在就有關於公事的董事就是這樣子提啦現在公事的董事雖然過程當中拖得比較長一點拖得比較長一點但問題是最後該提的該過的也都過啦"},{"start":3154.585,"end":3177.017,"text":"那這個只是一個善意的折衷啊我必須要老實講我們也不是說100%的堅持說一定要這樣子幹不可但我覺得大家如果認為對於現行NCC委員產生的方式沒有辦法取得社會多數的信賴的話那我們就要冷靜的想一想"},{"start":3178.866,"end":3205.053,"text":"還要維持現在的方式嗎還是應該要做一些改變這個是第一點所提出來意見的表達那第二點這一次有一個非常重要的修正就是要把萬年NCC委員條款廢除什麼叫做萬年NCC委員條款廢除在他任期介滿的時候沒有新的委員原來的委員可以繼續幹下去"},{"start":3206.792,"end":3233.646,"text":"那這件事情我可以先表達台灣民眾黨黨團的立場絕對反對絕對反對那為什麼絕對反對在立法例上面哪有這樣子設計的啊萬年委員制當初NCC的主委陳耀祥主委在我們司法法制委員會進行報告的時候我聽了大驚失色啊我為什麼大驚失色我唸給大家聽啊"},{"start":3235.562,"end":3245.047,"text":"這個在立法院公報113卷第37期會議記錄陳耀祥主委當初跟台灣社會跟我們的國會的報告內容是說"},{"start":3246.334,"end":3273.308,"text":"有關於本會委員任期屆滿未能順利通過新提名委員時應由原委員延任的部分應為本會組織法第四條第五項規定是參照公平交易委員會組織法第四條第四項規定所定的我那天在司法法制委員會聽到陳主委這樣講我不敢自信"},{"start":3276.291,"end":3297.405,"text":"因為這根本是假訊息啊我為什麼說這個是假訊息當初我們現在正在討論的原來的任期屆滿的時候沒有順利產生新提名委員由原委員延任的部分這個NCC組織法是在2007年12月20號修正2008年1月9號公佈"},{"start":3302.734,"end":3327.544,"text":"陳耀祥主委所在講的公平教育委員會組織法第四條第四項相同的規定是在2011年的時候修正你在2007年到08年修正的NCC組織法你先做時光機飛到三年以後去看2011年的公平教育委員會組織法會怎麼修然後所以才回過頭來"},{"start":3329.301,"end":3355.093,"text":"你要參照什麼法律你要比赴援引其他的立法例我都沒意見啦問題是你作為一個NCC的主委可以這樣時空錯置喔2007年、2008年修正的法律竟然是參考2011年的修正事實上公民交易委員會組織法2011年修正的時候他才是在他的立法理由裡面說他是參考NCC通傳會組織法"},{"start":3357.535,"end":3385.225,"text":"你怎麼會把事情反過來講呢今天你NCC主委是主委耶你不是名嘴耶名嘴在電視上面亂講亂噴不用負責啊你NCC主委在立法院可以這樣講喔那第三個那你說除了公平交易委員會那除了NCC以外那其他"},{"start":3386.624,"end":3412.938,"text":"其他具有需要國會同意權同意通過的組織體有相類似的規定嗎我們的司法院院長我們的大法官有規定說到原任期到的時候沒有選出新的大法官既有的大法官繼續延任下去嗎有這樣子的規定嗎可以這樣規定嗎這樣子的規定那你不就導致了什麼萬年"},{"start":3414.892,"end":3443.672,"text":"NCC委員的產生怎麼會有這麼離譜這麼荒謬立法上面的設計那當然十幾年前犯的錯誤現在要修該修就要修嘛該修就要修嘛那第三個部分我要說明的事情是說那大家說那立法院如果不審那該怎麼辦那這個就會牽涉到我們目前"},{"start":3445.086,"end":3466.414,"text":"所陷入的僵局所以我們目前所陷入的僵局是說舊的行政院院長他把NCC提名的名單送來了那我們事實上是很希望說新的內閣我們要強調行政院院長的人事任命權新的內閣他要談責任政治談責任政治的話"},{"start":3469.548,"end":3496.451,"text":"提名的人選我給他有決定權提了不好行政院院長要負責天經地義、天公地道我相信這個責任政治的原理大家都可以同意但現在的狀況是什麼現在的狀況是一個要卸任前的看守的內閣的院長提了名單到立法院來當然他會說這個我們希望希望就是說我們要按照法律的規定"},{"start":3497.737,"end":3524.305,"text":"任期屆滿前三個月以前要提來這麼也可以理解那當然你要講到比較深刻的就會有政權交接的問題在政權交接的那個過渡時期的時候原來出來的提名名單是不是有經過新的總統、新的院長他們的認可、他們的點頭那這個政權交接條例的部分在我目前立法上面還是處於空白的狀態但問題是說"},{"start":3528.168,"end":3557.267,"text":"那藉由在實務上面實際的實踐我們如果確保說今天陳建仁送來的這四個都是新的政府他們點頭的那站在台灣民眾黨的立場我可以清楚的表白我們贊成實質審查四個全部都進來審我們贊成實質審查但我後來看了卓榮泰在立法院院會裡面"},{"start":3559.81,"end":3586.793,"text":"在接受總質詢的時候他的表態我看了就很擔心我為什麼看了很擔心因為中國國民黨黨團的代表洪孟楷委員上去質詢的時候那因為今天孟楷兄也有在現場如果我有轉述錯誤的話等一下再請您更正因為洪孟楷那個時候就問卓榮泰說那那個"},{"start":3589.344,"end":3616.486,"text":"陳建仁他所提的四名NCC委員那你知不知道你同不同意結果卓榮泰的回答是陳院長有他作業的時程跟委員報告我們當然沒有討論過這個名單那代表的是什麼這個名單他完全不他不僅沒參與還完全不知道洪孟楷又繼續追問那你屬意的名單什麼時候會出來"},{"start":3618.918,"end":3641.718,"text":"卓榮泰說:「今天跟大院完成施政報告後,我想我的工作會比較少一點,所以我會去好好的看這個名單。」卓榮泰說:「他之前不了解,今天來報告沒空,今天報告完了以後可能會有空要來看這個名單。」然後洪孟楷問他說:「下禮拜會出來嗎?」"},{"start":3643.181,"end":3668.371,"text":"我會去開始認真的檢視名單在最短的時間內讓委員看到這個是我們行政院院長卓榮泰在立法院總質詢的時候他所做出來的承諾那我不知道他後來是讓哪些委員看到那不過身為立法委員當中其中的一名我必須要老實跟大家報告我是沒看到我到目前為止沒看到"},{"start":3668.973,"end":3685.551,"text":"那我不知道孟楷兄是不是有看到因為我看完了這個詢答的內容除非後面發生了什麼事情是我有漏掉的資訊從這個詢答的內容清楚的展現出一個態度什麼態度就是"},{"start":3687.038,"end":3706.686,"text":"陳建仁所提的這四個NCC委員新的政府是沒有參與沒有語文甚至不知道後來看了名單才知道的我們現在當然沒看到我們也在等卓榮泰院長提出新名單好那我現在的問題就來啦那你從責任政治的角度上面來講那這四個人是誰要負責卓榮泰認不認"},{"start":3714.568,"end":3740.174,"text":"那你最起碼新的行政院院長跟大家講這四個名單新內閣、新的行政院院長我們同意我們背書那如果左輪派做這樣的表示台灣民眾黨黨團絕對支持現在這四個人進入實質審查因為新的行政院院長、新的內閣就背書了嘛"},{"start":3741.124,"end":3768.675,"text":"那既然他們要背書我們在4至613號所討論剛剛不斷強調的行政院院長的人事提名權行政院院長基於行政一體行政院院長基於責任政治要負責那讓我們清楚的知道那個行政院院長叫卓龍泰嘛那否則的話我們接下去繼續審查會很荒謬啊繼續審查了以後到時候人選被爆出了什麼醜聞什麼弊案"},{"start":3772.719,"end":3796.585,"text":"什麼樣子不當的往來然後審查會在立法院裡面被封殺那請問這個責任政治的原理的這個責任是誰要扛難不成要去追陳建仁嗎人家都已經卸任了也回歸學術界了這樣不公平嘛那所以現在提名的這四個人行政院到底認不認"},{"start":3798.578,"end":3815.619,"text":"我覺得跟我們現在組織法的修訂有非常大的關係我是希望藉由剛好這個機會公開的會議正式的會議向我們的行政院院長卓榮泰喊話卓榮泰你告訴你在行政院"},{"start":3817.32,"end":3832.646,"text":"來歷法院備詢的時候跟全體國人講說你要去檢視名單最短的時間讓委員看到我們到目前為止全部沒看到啊那這四個人你到底是OK不OK那這件事情如果不釐清的話我們今天在這邊討論行政議題在這邊討論責任政治豈不很可笑嗎"},{"start":3839.056,"end":3864.783,"text":"那如果說卓榮泰說這四個不是我提的人喔我沒有要背書我也沒有要扛行政責任那也拜託行政院院長卓榮泰清楚的表明那這個時候我覺得我們立法院該做的事情落實責任政治就我們把名單退回去給行政院讓我們新的行政院院長基於責任政治他有重新提名四位"},{"start":3865.816,"end":3871.104,"text":"的空間跟可能性以上針對今天所協商的主題表達意見 謝謝"},{"start":3877.459,"end":3903.013,"text":"感謝周委來安排這個協商我比較簡單的快速把這幾個意見表達其實我們現在討論的是第四條第四條如同剛剛我們一而再再三來兩位委員的發言其實大家也都知道說憲法613這個解釋是字號其實就是大家都已經有研讀過所以說也不需要在那邊搬門弄斧或者是說抖"},{"start":3903.513,"end":3930.35,"text":"包袱來去針對613的這個解釋而是我們很實際的來看說到底現在有沒有這個條文可修正之處確實有嗎因為現在確實經歷NCC組織法到現在已經快20年左右的時間確實有跟現實狀況有摯愛難解或說真的有影響必須要修正之處嗎簡單來講第四條裡面有三大重點"},{"start":3931.67,"end":3948.705,"text":"第一 到底NCC的委員任期能不能持續連任 變成萬年NCC委員這第一個部分 也是我們眾多委員版本裡面有修正到的部分第二 NCC委員組成的名單到底為何 組成的方式為何"},{"start":3949.446,"end":3978.626,"text":"就是由現在行政院長提名行政院長就送出來到立法院立法院做審查或者是說像我們幾位委員有提出來的版本是經由審查會並沒有直接去針對NCC委員的名單來去做這個挑選而是經由政黨比例所組成的審查會行政院提出來之後經由審查會先做初步的一個審視之後再送來立法院"},{"start":3979.697,"end":3986.466,"text":"這是第二個部分這某種程度上也是完整這個名單的公正性、專業度以及獨立性嘛"},{"start":3987.937,"end":4015.68,"text":"過去到現在NCC委員被人家詬病的尤其是這四年的時間針對每一個案件有不同的一個狀況的才是針對每一個申請有不同的狀況的才是甚至還講出說如果說NCC委員沒有在三個月內補滿的話iPhone都買不到這種話都可以講得出來的時候真的是笑掉國人的大牙總統派院長都已經在行政院都在立法院質詢台上打臉了"},{"start":4017.602,"end":4034.332,"text":"所以我拉回來第三點第四條裡面還強調一個什麼就是強調說我們如果說時間到了委員沒有真的來替補的話那怎麼辦現在的條文規定的是就是委員持續的來做下去"},{"start":4035.688,"end":4052.757,"text":"陳耀祥主委也在之前答詢的時候就已經講了他731他的任期到了之後他就會回歸學術界嘛你就不會留嘛所以換言之你的行為我想這也是現在行政官員跟我們現在的這個組織法規定所有"},{"start":4054.278,"end":4070.424,"text":"不同之處嘛組織法規定是說如果說你人權還沒有到的時候你是要持續喔但是陳耀強主委就說到了他就是要離開囉所以陳耀強主委如果假設在現在尤其剛剛黃國昌委員也特別提到我5月31號的這個質詢"},{"start":4073.578,"end":4098.401,"text":"五月三十號的這個質詢我特別請教卓榮泰院長沒有錯我就說陳建仁前院長在他離開之前他把匆匆的把四個名單提出來但是五月二十號之後他就已經卸任了那五月二十號之後我們也認為說新任的卓榮泰院長你應該要針對這個名單來瞭解啊結果卓榮泰院長講是說他不知情之前這四位名單的時候他根本不知道而"},{"start":4099.162,"end":4126.176,"text":"卓龍泰院長親口在總質詢的備詢台上講是說最短時間內提出新名單是5月31號卓龍泰院長親口講最短時間內提出新名單因為他在這10天從5月20到5月31這10天內看了很多重要場域跟準備施政報告沒有深入NCC委員提名名單所以承諾最短時間內一定會圓滿著的解決以行政院的立場來檢視名單"},{"start":4128.652,"end":4155.26,"text":"所以我們到現在又兩個禮拜的時間過去了5月31到現在6月14兩個禮拜了我們還是沒有看到所謂的新名單所謂卓榮泰院長想要提出的名單所以這三個部分才是我們認為應該來討論的地方那既然如此我們現在有看到有民眾黨的版本有國民黨各委員的版本那民進黨委員沒有版本"},{"start":4156.195,"end":4182.654,"text":"所以我覺得今天既然我們要逐條都已經進入到實質的審查我覺得是不是就針對這三大方向我們各自表達自己的主張意見第一能夠接受萬年NCC委員嗎?如果不能接受的話是不是在本席的版本裡面我的版本就有提到以及我們幾位委員的版本都有提到就是任滿得連任一次這很具體吧"},{"start":4183.615,"end":4198.03,"text":"我覺得等一下大家就是應該要針對這個部分逐條審查的時候我們就要表態啊你是認為你NCC的委員連任可以無限期連任依照現行的NCC組織法不修改無限期連任還是認為說NCC委員連任一次"},{"start":4199.394,"end":4200.715,"text":"審查委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案"},{"start":4218.743,"end":4238.353,"text":"但是盡可能的來提出一個共識那我們也在之前已經就討論過就在之前也跟法學專家學者也都討論過現行的狀況是不會違反613的釋制的所以不會有違憲的問題以及第三任期到了委員任期到了沒有替補人選怎麼辦"},{"start":4239.861,"end":4269.424,"text":"我們有幾位委員的修正版本也都已經有提到了如果說任期到未能通過立法院同意的話原任委員任期應終止不得延任也非常具體啊那我也拜託我們黨團大家能夠表個態啊你是認為說如果行政院長沒有提出一個好的名單或說立法院提出名單之後立法院沒有辦法在期限前能夠同意的話那原有的委員還可以持續喔"},{"start":4270.39,"end":4287.327,"text":"那這樣子就真的就是萬年NCC委員了我們不需要放水嘛我們立法院的審查也不需要配合行政院嘛我們不要有這種時間的壓力而造成說我們必須要倉促草率、便宜行事嘛所以第四條123"},{"start":4290.677,"end":4319.207,"text":"能不能連任、連任幾次以及產生委員的方式是否用審查會還有是不是任期到了之後如果真的沒有補齊人的話應該不得延續下去我覺得這三點也拜託我們大家能夠取得一個能夠更聚焦我想這才符合我們現在逐條審查的精神跟作為那本席我剛提出來的我的意見就是我認為NCC委員連任得一次違憲"},{"start":4321.035,"end":4324.947,"text":"應該要有審查會的制度來確保我們能夠提出公正、專業、獨立的委員"},{"start":4327.745,"end":4353.865,"text":"以及第三如果說真的至愛難行行政院沒有提出好的名單出來立法院不應該有時間限制而造成說我們一定必須便宜形式的一個審查委員所以第三個部分即便委員任期到了之後他的任期也就終止那NCC的業務也不會因為少一兩位委員日常業務不作為因為畢竟NCC還是有公務同仁嘛"},{"start":4354.545,"end":4368.295,"text":"我們有這些處的行政人員都可以來持續進行相關業務所以說也不會造成我們NCC停擺的狀況以上謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請鍾嘉賓召委謝謝剛剛請聽的前面三位委員的高見"},{"start":4375.424,"end":4396.61,"text":"那在這裡仍然 可惜黃委員要離開了不然我仍然是要提出4至613號我沒有離開 我外面講的事情我不曉得還是要從613號來談是這樣分三個部分第一個部分 到底4至613號所提到的原來當時被宣告違憲的NCC組織法"},{"start":4399.031,"end":4420.974,"text":"條文內容是哪個部分抵觸憲法規定而違憲的?」這個地方要首先來釐清啦那也是一樣趙立很可惜的我們委員有在闡述四字號的時候還是闡前面那一半後面那一半呢我們來看一看四字他這裡面所提到的這裡所說的"},{"start":4422.524,"end":4432.149,"text":"關於委員任滿提名及出缺提名之規定實質上幾乎完全剝奪行政院之人事決定權將剝奪行政院之人事決定權實質上已轉由立法院各政黨團"},{"start":4442.094,"end":4455.807,"text":"與由各政黨團一齊在立法院所佔席次比例推薦組成之審查委員會共同行使以影響人民對於通傳會應超越政治之公正信賴違背了通傳會之設計為獨立機關的建制目的OK 這裡面談到兩個部分"},{"start":4460.612,"end":4471.522,"text":"一個就是一個提名的審查委員會這個審查委員會在當時它是由政黨依立法院所佔之席次比例有11位"},{"start":4472.881,"end":4497.386,"text":"那這個審查委員會他原來的條文我們現在標的上我先講原來的條文就是當年的條文被宣告委員的條文是有18名的委員15名是由政黨依照所佔席次比例來推薦3名留給行政院院長那這當然行政院長的提名就稀釋到成六分之一這當然是大法官認為所不宜的"},{"start":4498.166,"end":4499.167,"text":"併案審查委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":4513.682,"end":4534.756,"text":"審查委員會就決定了這18名提名者大法官在裡面有兩個部分一個是認為這個審查委員會按政黨比例這是剝奪了行政院的人事任命權另外因為他在第一次任命的時候是任命全額但是在缺額的部分"},{"start":4535.598,"end":4558.108,"text":"到底要由政黨依什麼樣的比例來推薦行政院長會提名認滿在提名以及缺額提名的時候這裡面實質上似乎已經沒有行政院長提名的空間就這兩個部分來駕以深論那重要的是他講到這是一個獨立機關那我們要先分析到底大法官是認為有一個"},{"start":4559.352,"end":4581.168,"text":"外依政黨比例形成的提名審查委員會是否跟獨立機關的本質上有所為務獨立機關顧名思義就應該是超越政黨以上來獨立行使職權那我們目前獨立機關有三個一個是中選會"},{"start":4582.543,"end":4597.52,"text":"一個是公平教育委員會一個就是NCC中選會自不代言他是要來主持國家的各種大小選舉所以當然他必須獨立行使之權更不能可能由政黨一比例來提名"},{"start":4598.291,"end":4624.452,"text":"那過去的違憲條款他設了一個審查委員會是依政黨比例這樣的本質上就完全違反了獨立機關應具備的程序條件當然我們看到現在因為我不曉得今天討論的民眾黨團版因為上面沒有寫民眾黨團版對不起我沒有看到我只看到傅昆奇委員版先就傅昆奇委員版他今天做了一個技術性的轉移"},{"start":4625.441,"end":4635.688,"text":"他說他仍然要成立一個提名審查委員會那同樣的是由11名這個學者專家來組成那麼"},{"start":4636.724,"end":4656.119,"text":"而他是依照政黨在立法院的比例來推薦組成的但是他組成之後他最後說最後他所審酌通過的名單是由行政院長因參酌審查委員會審查結果提出名單來送請立法院同意"},{"start":4657.597,"end":4677.602,"text":"似乎新的版本這是第二點要深論的了新的版本仍然保留有原來違憲條款當中要依正當比例來組成一個審查委員會只是他將這個審查委員會在處理提名名單的時候他是處理完了交給行政院長他上面寫參佐審查委員會審查結果提出之名單"},{"start":4687.318,"end":4711.281,"text":"意思好像說這個審查委員會依照政黨比例所成立的審查委員會審查的同意的名單由行政院長交由立法院來行使同意權那大家想想看前面這個11席的審查委員會完完全全是依照立法院的政黨比例來形成"},{"start":4712.642,"end":4735.37,"text":"那他同意的名單再交給行政院長再送給立法院來進行同意權的行使大家可想而知行政院長在這當中有什麼不審酌的餘地嗎有什麼不審酌的餘地嗎難道提出這個版本的政黨真的認為當年4-6143號我們大法官所指責的"},{"start":4739.127,"end":4767.177,"text":"NCC作為獨立機關他的審查委員會這個機制竟然是由立法院依正常比例來形成的審查委員會當年的原條文是審查委員會審查的名單才能送來由立法院來同意現在呢新的版本2020年的版本他轉個彎審查委員會同意的審查過的版本名單交給行政院長參酌再送給立法院來審查"},{"start":4769.276,"end":4796.394,"text":"難道這樣會導致出同樣不違憲的結果嗎所以我們覺得當年要挑戰613、4-613的這樣的一個原條文修正條文被宣告違憲而作廢今天捲土重來只是把審查委員會跟立法院審同意權的行使當中卡一個行政院長的餐著"},{"start":4797.85,"end":4823.238,"text":"所以我是覺得我們對於大法官釋字的解釋千萬不能只讀一半尤其不能只讀前半段後半段他講到了他是一個獨立機關正因為是獨立機關我想第三個部分了他跟公共電視就不同了公視委員會他的確是由立法院來組成一政黨比例的提名的一個審查委員會但是公共電視是獨立機關嗎"},{"start":4825.694,"end":4852.472,"text":"公共電視是個財團法人他的董事是由立法院的一個審查委員會來行使同意權的這個審查委員會對一個財團法人、公共電視董事會是一個公共電視的一個經營者這跟中選會、公平會、NCC是獨立機關代表國家公權力行使公權力的地位是不可同日而語的"},{"start":4853.635,"end":4872.588,"text":"所以大法官不會去管理公共電視在立法院依照政黨比例而形成的提名委員會或者是審查委員會來組成他不會去管理這個他會來關心你作為三個獨立機關之一的NCC你怎麼可以把他的"},{"start":4873.368,"end":4883.636,"text":"提名名單先交給一個由正常比例組成的審查委員會來經過審查同意後才交給行政院長再回給立法院來行使同意權錯的事情不因為你拐個彎就會變成對"},{"start":4890.034,"end":4916.609,"text":"所以我們在這裡還是要奉勸還持有這樣觀念的在野黨如果真的對NCC有不同意見在審查會我們倒是可以看一看有幾個版本可以參考第四個部分我們今天看到的禁風二讀委員提案當中有賴世保委員的提案他就在這裡寫他把做了零選具他加了零選加了公正人士加了這幾個字樣"},{"start":4919.783,"end":4946.272,"text":"李燕秀委員的版本,抱歉因為他底下沒有畫黑線我仔細去看還沒有找出他到底跟原條文、線型條文有哪些修正的意見但是我覺得至少看起來賴思寶委員的修正提案事實上跟現在符合並沒有抵觸憲法的線型條文是有修正的空間餘地可以加以考量"},{"start":4947.25,"end":4975.017,"text":"那最後呢因為剛剛的委員有提到啊所謂的萬年條款的確在時序上呢2007年是先有NCC的組織法在2011年有公平會的組織法這裡面都有共同同樣的條文他的就是刪除第五項而已啊刪除第五項啊我看到李燕修委員的刪除第五項就是所謂的萬年條款啊那我們來看一看到底為什麼公平會"},{"start":4976.961,"end":4982.161,"text":"獨立機關需要有這樣一個上面所寫的就是被刪除的第四項"},{"start":4984.741,"end":4998.489,"text":"本會委員任期屆滿未能依前項規定提任時,原任委員之任期得延至新任委員就職前一日止,不受第一項任期之限制。"},{"start":5007.174,"end":5029.619,"text":"說是萬年條款本席於心有戚戚焉因為我覺得這個很眼熟我也可以理解它為什麼叫萬年條款大家可以看到中華民國憲法本文的第28條國民大會代表每六年改選一次每屆國民大會代表自任期至次屆國民大會開會之日為止"},{"start":5030.609,"end":5039.454,"text":"沒有錯,如果大家年輕的時候去反對過萬年國會這就是當時國民大會的萬年條款因為中華民國的第一屆國民大會"},{"start":5040.666,"end":5063.967,"text":"任期六年要改選但是始終法改選所以下一屆一直不能產生因此也是經過同樣的程序所以就有第一屆的增額每次選來選去都是第一屆因為第二屆選不出來所以第一屆的任期就不斷的不斷的要等到第二屆國民大會開會之日為止大家知道第二屆什麼時候開始嗎1992年"},{"start":5067.531,"end":5090.026,"text":"1992年終於在台灣全部選出了全體的國民大會代表所以第一屆國民代表才可以落幕包括真兒的改由第二屆的國民大會那大家一定好奇啦當時這部神聖的中華民國憲法的制憲者為什麼去制定一個這樣明顯的抵觸民主政治契約公平契約明定原則"},{"start":5091.172,"end":5094.775,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":5102.421,"end":5121.721,"text":"那這裡面大家有興趣可以看一看這是憲政的考古題為什麼當年大法官要這樣子讓萬年國會得以延任我個人當然反對這樣的一個說法但是為什麼公平會跟NCC都必須具有這樣的一個到下一屆"},{"start":5122.722,"end":5146.196,"text":"任期產生的委員出現,他的前一任才任滿是有什麼樣的原因比一個國民大會的神聖的政權延續還重要必須讓他們能夠有這樣的具備因為顯然李英雄委員的版本他刪除了這個條款相信李委員一定有很好的理由來告訴我們為什麼NCC跟公平會不需要這樣所謂的萬年條款"},{"start":5148.177,"end":5159.147,"text":"一個NCC跟公民會有什麼重要的國家行政在獨立機關必須行使的職權不得中斷的情況之下竟膽敢、斗膽援引當年萬年國會讓國民大會萬年不用改選的條款來作為延續而斗膽的"},{"start":5166.814,"end":5185.762,"text":"這2008年、2007年跟2011年的立法院也竟然斗膽的通過了這樣的萬年條款我們真的非常的好奇願聞其詳也希望提案委員跟我們在座的行政機關列席代表獨立機關的列席代表可以提供一些讓我們來了解一下以上好 謝謝那李委員好 先是昭偉我想談到獨立機關"},{"start":5197.369,"end":5214.372,"text":"我們在處理通傳法的時候我覺得很多的時空還有很多的背景我覺得我們要去思考那獨立機關當時在設計上跟一般行政機關最大的不同是在人事上它必須是獨立的這是獨立機關當時設計的目的那我們今天在討論獨立機關的人事同意權的同時我們也必須思考它必須是專業化跟去政治化它也必須思考"},{"start":5225.174,"end":5245.399,"text":"社會多元的價值在裡頭所以也就是說在人事上的處理在運作上它必須要減少上級機關的干預這是我們在整體人事制度上的設計那剛剛大家一直在提到613的4字號的解釋那我就要把它念一次行政院院長更迭的時候獨立機關事實上是會享有任期的保障"},{"start":5251.04,"end":5278.77,"text":"並不會因為我們現在產生新的行政院長所以獨立機關的任期這些委員任期他就不需要跟著行政院長同進退也就是說他的任期是受到四年我們一蓋下去他人事同意權事實上他是受到四年的保障的但是反過來說四年任期到的時候他自然就不受到任何人事保障跟任命的基礎"},{"start":5280.19,"end":5299.743,"text":"這是我們在蓋人事同意權的時候我們就賦予他四年四年之後我們是不是要持續的保障他這個就是今天我在處理第四條的時候我的想法我覺得當他不具有任命同意權的基礎他自然卸任不能因為任何的因素而擅自延長他的任期"},{"start":5301.804,"end":5316.461,"text":"所以同意權送進來立法院的時候如果立法院沒有辦法同意的時候行政院就要去思考他要不要去調整他的名單這個就是他不能因為立法院"},{"start":5316.821,"end":5337.875,"text":"不同意任命,現任委員不斷延任而逃避應有的監督這在第四條當中我的意見第五條當中我也順便說明一下現在目前行政院長提名的指定人選裡面他同時就有包含主委跟副主委的職務"},{"start":5339.136,"end":5360.843,"text":"所以當屆期認滿的時候提前辭職的時候我個人認為因為獨立機關它是一個合一的機關它也是一個獨立的機關所以我們更應該比照中選會選出由委員互相推認選出自己的主委跟副主委以上是我在第四條跟第五條的意見 謝謝"},{"start":5365.333,"end":5388.371,"text":"請吳思瑤委員發言謝謝主席我想這個條文在審查會的時候也多次的來論述提出我的意見那很多雷同的論述我就不再贅述我就講精要的重點第一個NCC既然作為獨立機關它獨立運作的獨立性是非常重要的所以不應當受到政治的干預"},{"start":5389.532,"end":5404.274,"text":"所以捍衛NCC一個獨立機關它的獨立性第二個NCC所掌理的事務是涉專業所以應當由專業的人士來出任所以要避免讓政治來干預專業"},{"start":5405.996,"end":5423.199,"text":"所以基於獨立性跟專業性我們都應當來維持現行的條文而不應該回到過去被613號大法官解釋已經推翻失效的法律讓他再借屍還魂再來死灰復燃"},{"start":5424.2,"end":5453.042,"text":"第二面向講到憲法所規範的人事的權利人事的任命權是行政權的核心所以說行政權來任命人事立法院能夠行使的依憲法所賦予的職責是同意權所以在憲法的精神下如果今天的條文修了那一樣又回到過去被大法官打臉的期期以為不可的"},{"start":5453.542,"end":5472.701,"text":"用立法院的立法權、人事同意權來強害、傷害甚至取代了行政院的人事任命權所以這兩個主張我想這是非常清楚我們要對社會論述也要向在野黨的委員再一次來懇請你們三思"},{"start":5473.602,"end":5498.808,"text":"那講到這個黃國昌委員民眾黨的版本就是拐了一個彎嘛換湯不換藥嘛他用審查會的機制用政黨比例透過審查會其實公事的組成跟NCC的獨立機構的運作完全不同公事的組成他強調的是一個多元是一個包容是一個平衡"},{"start":5500.441,"end":5518.936,"text":"所以說在公示他是用政黨比例組成審查會的這個運作的原始的制度設計跟NCC作為獨立機關相當具有專業性的行使職權這是大不相同所以不能夠拿來滴溝、倒菜兜、隨便來這裡東拼西湊來強害了NCC原本的人士"},{"start":5525.622,"end":5529.673,"text":"的組成專業委員的一個任命那如果要講到"},{"start":5531.109,"end":5556.114,"text":"公共電視的惡果是什麼?」我想大家去Google一下也都知道過去公共電視長期陷入一個透過立法院政黨比例任命組成的審查會來行使公視的董事的這些任命的相關作為所以第四屆、第五屆、第七屆延宕了多久Google一下都知道"},{"start":5557.314,"end":5584.067,"text":"最距離現在最近的第七屆是延宕了957天我過去在教育文化委員會我監督的主要部門就是文化部所有的立法委員不分朝野永遠想要去排除想要去解決公共電視的董事受限於一個政黨比例的委員會的組成而遲遲沒有辦法完成董事會的改組"},{"start":5585.247,"end":5606.757,"text":"導致公示在第七屆他的董事的產生延宕了957天第五屆還好延宕了58天第四屆同樣也延宕了965天這都是過去的印證、明證來告訴我們NCC可以再這樣被搞下去嗎"},{"start":5608.058,"end":5633.179,"text":"所以歷史的經驗告訴我們現在修法就要慎思就要深思剛剛講到萬年條款萬年條款只要講一件事情要維持NCC的routine穩定的運作我們當然希望立法院能夠依法定的時程去完成人事同意權的行使就不會有要延任續任的問題"},{"start":5634.915,"end":5660.218,"text":"我們希望是這個前提,何況這一次的國會擴權法案也看到在野黨的委員對於人事同意權設下了你們認為更嚴謹的行使程序所以說為了讓NCC不會因此而停擺因為沒有辦法完成人事的同意權而造成又沒有新的委員可以又沒有舊的委員可以來繼續hold住整個如常的運作"},{"start":5661.502,"end":5685.45,"text":"所以這個萬年條款真的也是要請提案的委員好好的深思所以基於這些理由我也多次論述但是在黨團協商我們還是要負起職責所以我再一次就幾個面向那就交於大家那我個人還是認為大家依現行的條文是足以讓我們讓NCC的運作穩健、專業、獨立好 這是我的主張 謝謝"},{"start":5686.735,"end":5697.176,"text":"好 因為剛剛那個翁委員有舉手嘛是 那就麻煩翁委員那中委員等一下也要講嘛好 那那個就你講完好 來 翁委員"},{"start":5700.437,"end":5720.304,"text":"今天針對NCC組織法第四條提出修正我想最主要的原因也是我們看到從NCC成立之後到現在這麼多年來大家一直會針對NCC的獨立性提出質疑"},{"start":5721.304,"end":5737.31,"text":"尤其這些年歷經了幾個重大的案件大家更是對NCC委員的獨立性還有他的專業性有了高度的質疑NCC越來越不像是獨立機關而是像是一個政治的打手"},{"start":5739.15,"end":5753.116,"text":"這也是現在在野黨還有很多委員們所關心的而且要提出來修正NCC組織法的最重要的理由當大家講到613號解釋我必須再回到當時為什麼會有613號解釋的那個時代背景"},{"start":5759.798,"end":5781.108,"text":"大家不要忘記了NCC的組織法是在2005年的時候通過的那從NCC成立之後其實從一開始的這個成立其實就受到當時民進黨政府這個行政院的打壓那時候的院長是謝長廷那麼當時的這個NCC組織法"},{"start":5789.458,"end":5791.245,"text":"他的組成的規定"},{"start":5793.268,"end":5821.048,"text":"經過很複雜的一個程序希望能夠達到嚴謹然後不斷的去嚴格的審查能夠領選到最優秀、最客觀、最獨立專業的NCC的委員可是在這個委員審查的過程當中其實那時候行政院就不斷的反彈抗議而且在很多方面其實都"},{"start":5822.244,"end":5824.186,"text":"相關的審查程序 等到NCC正式組成之後又透過種種的Bager他們的預算等等這些手段來讓當時的NCC第一屆NCC委員會很難以運作"},{"start":5839.421,"end":5861.697,"text":"這都是我們回顧到當時的時代背景那麼以現在的角度來看其實當時NCC第一版的那個組織法看起來是最能夠達成讓NCC這個機關成員獨立而且能夠反映出一個政治多元化的一個法案"},{"start":5862.838,"end":5882.694,"text":"可惜613號解釋當時大法官也是民進黨政府所提名的大法官們宣告了第一版的NCC組織法違憲613號解釋事實上也被許多的公法學者所批評這樣子的一個"},{"start":5884.11,"end":5902.514,"text":"大法官解釋他是不是真的能夠之後能夠讓一個獨立機關真正的做到獨立那麼從責任一體的原則其實大家就有很多的討論那麼到包含將所有的提名權都交給行政院院長確實從"},{"start":5907.796,"end":5933.249,"text":"經過2006年613號解釋以來到現在在十幾年過去了我們也可以看到這個613號解釋之後對於幫助NCC成為獨立機關是毫無注意反而更證實了當時很多的憲法學者所提出來的一個問題就是當行政院它擁有了全部的提名權之後"},{"start":5935.051,"end":5962.841,"text":"就有可能讓整個NCC委員會沒有辦法獨立以現在台灣的這個政治生態來說除非說委員本身他人格很獨立他對於他的職務本身他有高度的信念知道什麼樣能夠做到能夠排除自己的個人的政治信仰而不會將個人過多的一個政治的一個部分"},{"start":5963.721,"end":5982.823,"text":"去代入到案子的審查但是就如同許多公法學者所預見的、所預測的我們看到其實現在的NCC確實是無法再維持它的獨立性跟它的專業性"},{"start":5984.52,"end":5993.305,"text":"那麼回到我們剛剛講的就是我們既然現在要提出NCC組織法第四條修正我們的目的當然是希望能夠重建獨立機關我們希望能夠讓NCC真正能夠往獨立機關的方向"},{"start":6000.229,"end":6018.925,"text":"更邁進一步,那麼獨立機關他當然還有幾個要件包含機關本身是不是獨立,他是不是還是要受到行政議題員等的拘束那他的人員是不是夠獨立,他財務是不是都夠獨立,這必須要有好幾個步驟去檢驗不過很可惜在我們現行的制度底下看起來"},{"start":6020.066,"end":6030.598,"text":"NCC似乎就沒有辦法達成我們剛剛上面講的這幾個重要的條件那在這次大家幾個委員所提出來的版本裡面"},{"start":6032.062,"end":6060.436,"text":"大概就以我的版本是跟其他委員是很不相同的那麼因為我們也看到讓行政院院長獨卵提名權的情況之下確實是無助於讓NCC變得更獨立所以在其他西方國家基本上會讓這個獨立機關的人事權透過一個分享提名權或是我們講共享提名權的方式去運作不管是在韓國"},{"start":6062.977,"end":6085.214,"text":"法國、德國的通訊傳播委員會這樣的一個組織模式都是採取由行政體系他們內閣或是行政院然後以及讓國會來共享提名權那麼這個是我提出這個法案的最重要的一個"},{"start":6086.094,"end":6112.37,"text":"想法就是讓整個NCC委員的提名權由立院跟行政院來一起共享、分享這樣的一個提名權那這更能夠反映出民主政治就是政黨政治而且它是一個多元的政治它可以透過這樣的模式讓NCC的組成、它的成員更多元化能夠讓大家不同的意見都能夠在NCC的這個機關裡面進行表達"},{"start":6116.407,"end":6122.412,"text":"當然也有其他委員提出採取公式版公式"},{"start":6123.991,"end":6126.912,"text":"條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":6150.578,"end":6165.112,"text":"公式性質與NCC的性質是不是差距有這麼大?理念來講,它應該都是要遠離國家的管制,它是不受到行政一體原則的拘束的"},{"start":6168.817,"end":6182.897,"text":"可是在現在公式的模式他採取兩階段又先成立審查委員會然後再進行相關的候選人的提名再進行審查坦白說他這個程序是蠻冗長的"},{"start":6184.699,"end":6209.117,"text":"那麼就我個人來講我覺得看過過去幾次公視在選董建市的這個情況之下作業程序非常的漫長而且常常還有可能會造成董事選不出來這個裡面的爭議非常之多我認為這個也不見得是一個最好的方式不過如果說相形之下的話總比現在整個的"},{"start":6212.699,"end":6217.399,"text":"NCC委員提名權由行政院院長一個人把持要來得好"},{"start":6218.919,"end":6246.478,"text":"那再說就是我們剛剛講的要廢除萬年委員的這個制度這個是我們這次在幾個版本裡面大家都有共識的NCC委員原則上就是連任就是只能連任一次並不得再連任那麼同時讓已經屆期要卸任的委員就離開了不需要再等待新委員補上之後到他們才離職"},{"start":6248.942,"end":6251.267,"text":"廢除現任委員的延任規定"},{"start":6258.963,"end":6277.297,"text":"此外本席的版本是認為NCC的委員人數是可以再縮減也不需要到現在7人NCC現在已經有兩個重要的業務已經移轉到數位部了數位發展部"},{"start":6279.418,"end":6308.638,"text":"整個NCC委員的組織人力的調整以及他的執行相關的業務其實五人的規模就差不多好像美國的FCC它也只是有五位的委員那麼韓國它的廣電的事業也非常市場很大那也是只有五人所以其實這就可以再討論是不是需要有七位NCC委員這五位其實我個人認為也就足夠了"},{"start":6310.445,"end":6328.017,"text":"接下來就是交錯任期制的部分其實這個交錯任期制是不是真的有助於讓NCC成員這個更為獨立或者是可以讓整個業務交接更為順利這個並沒有一定像我們現在看到這麼多的部會其實並沒有說是一定非得要這個經濟要等到首長新首長"},{"start":6336.983,"end":6358.558,"text":"上任之後原來的首長才能卸任也沒有這樣的規定所以交錯任期制是否要廢除我認為這個部分的話是很值得去思考而且可以朝向這方面去做所以本人這邊所提出來的修正規定也認為應該可以廢除交錯任期制這並無礙於整個NCC業務的推動"},{"start":6365.956,"end":6384.591,"text":"總之就是我們這次希望透過修正NCC組織法第四條的規定能夠讓更多元的意見進入到NCC而不是由行政院完全單一的政黨力量"},{"start":6385.211,"end":6391.754,"text":"完全掌控NCC的人事案。」我們要知道民主政治它就是多元的政治同時它也是政黨政治能夠讓不同的政治、政見、政黨的力量、意見能夠反映"},{"start":6401.338,"end":6404.74,"text":"在NCC的組織委員會裡面我覺得其實會比我們講唱高調說NCC要排除政治力量結果它排除了其他的各個不同政治社會團體的意見全部都是以執政黨的意見為意見那麼完全成為執政黨政府的打手工具其實"},{"start":6431.689,"end":6458.418,"text":"這個文並無助於讓NCC會變得更好所以這次這幾個版本裡面至少剛剛大家看起來也有一些共識就是廢除連任制度這個部分大家應該是沒有什麼意見都會支持的還有廢除現任委員的延任規定這是也有共識的那麼至於在整個提名審查的部分我覺得還可以"},{"start":6459.011,"end":6479.55,"text":"在多討論,可能以本席所提出來的這種人員提名的分享概念的這種提名分享權或許也是一個比較進步而且看其他國家運作到目前為止也都是一個很不錯的一個方式這以上希望大家可以做參考"},{"start":6484.886,"end":6487.47,"text":"謝謝張偉還有我們在場的協商各黨的代表"},{"start":6490.919,"end":6513.293,"text":"成都委員的講法以後我也其實尊重但是我第一個要先提出來就是說我們整個組織法裡面第四條 不好意思 總統委員跟你說一聲對不起 因為那個陳主委他要離開了那是不是給陳委員幾分鐘讓他先說一下因為他現在另有要事要轉"},{"start":6518.274,"end":6544.289,"text":"主席、各位委員不好意思因為等一下還有總質詢要去院會這邊那關於剛才各位委員所指教的這個部分那個613號解釋我想委員都講了非常多這個部分我就是不再贅述不過我們這個地方可能有一個部分要跟所有委員報告一下關於那個延任制度的這個問題延任制度基本上它不是一個萬年條款它基本上是一個過渡條款"},{"start":6545.109,"end":6557.859,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":6571.01,"end":6597.472,"text":"那這個部分來講的話當時的國會其實也是這個當時國民黨是居多數當時透過政黨協商所出來的那為什麼會有這個所謂過度條款就是避免我們的機關的運作會陷入所謂的癱瘓的問題那跟各位委員報告一下本會是合議制機關我們合議制機關裡面來講的話七個委員裡面來講的話你至少有過半出席才有辦法組成委員會"},{"start":6598.453,"end":6616.726,"text":"那時候我們的運作報告重大的事項其實跟委員除了我們的每一週的委員會以外我們很多的案件比如說以去年112年來講的話我們還有所謂的分組審查還有一些所謂行政處分的確認案我們一年要處理到一萬六千八百多件"},{"start":6617.56,"end":6645.478,"text":"那剛才葉委員有提到說不是什麼iPhone這個問題其實不是這個問題而已不是所謂的器材審驗的問題最主要是因為我們的管制過程裡面很多是所謂的證照或是執照的管制執照是有效期的那萬一我們的委員會比如說我們以這一屆來講比如說我離開我們四個委員到期現在三位委員三位委員是沒有辦法組成一個合法的委員會去進行審議的那所有的案子就會delay下來"},{"start":6646.118,"end":6655.706,"text":"委員洪孟楷等35人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等35人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等35人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等35人擬具"},{"start":6674.301,"end":6698.374,"text":"我們是事前的權力,我們是有政兆管制的而且這個政兆都是一個,不是只有新聞台還有各個,我們有300多個頻道這每一年都會有做相關的議題以上這個部分補充給各個委員,謝謝謝謝主委,那待會請莊委員那因為有委員是第二次發言,我們就盡量減短盡量減短,不是不給發言那我就盡量減短啦,其實各位委員"},{"start":6699.415,"end":6723.713,"text":"那剛我必須要特別指出來了按照整個國家通訊傳播委員會組織法裡面的一個第四條的規定那第四款本來就是在這個整個委員任版前三個月就是應該按照程序去提名去任命新的委員所以承建年承建"},{"start":6724.804,"end":6732.827,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具 «國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具 «國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":6746.252,"end":6759.747,"text":"那現在到底要不要重新再去責任人選的一個問題這我尊重大家的一個看法那另外一個所謂的過渡啊大家一直在講說什麼萬年委員不會啦這是一個過渡條款你說萬年"},{"start":6761.169,"end":6761.329,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":6784.994,"end":6800.623,"text":"我看到這個很多的版本我一直在想所以我去爬書了在2005年為什麼當初好多條文不會打架真正打架的是哪裡就是NCC這個條文去打架"},{"start":6802.858,"end":6831.187,"text":"當初之所以打架媒體的評論說NCC管的範圍不僅從新聞局接手廣播電視業務連交通部管的郵電電信業務一併併給NCC就是說掌控媒體這塊政治敏感版圖也就是說誰提名了這一些委員以後政黨的手大家分一分以後大家的手全部都會進到媒體裡面去"},{"start":6832.208,"end":6850.667,"text":"來主導這塊利益的一個大餅當初大家在評論各個政黨為什麼要所謂的用政黨的一個比例放進去是這個原因但是正面的解讀當然可以解讀說有不同的政黨去做一個監督的話會符合"},{"start":6854.871,"end":6855.532,"text":"監督與制衡原則"},{"start":6878.035,"end":6890.353,"text":"做一個分享的這樣的一個概念但我反而會認為說立法院通過以後就算我們都去通過了不管你幾輪通過了立法院通過以後你真的可以擔保這些委員就可以怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":6891.806,"end":6917.432,"text":"有哪一個我們的政黨我們提出來了我們就可以幫忙擔保他事後如何嗎所以還是必須要回歸到責任政治裡面就是所謂的政黨政治你誰執政你屬於行政權的你到最後如果出了事情責任歸誰當然是歸你提名的人歸屬於你這個執政黨啊那如果說大家一起來分享分享到最後"},{"start":6918.592,"end":6920.953,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":6934.117,"end":6950.025,"text":"提名的人出問題當然民進黨、執政黨你必須要負責任哪一個黨執政你提名的人當然你必須要去負責任所以我反而會覺得說整個責任政治這個帳要算清楚其他的部分我看到你光連傅崐萁委員他就兩個版本他到最後一直修"},{"start":6953.496,"end":6955.698,"text":"立法院司法及法制、交通兩委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通兩委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通兩委員會組織"},{"start":6972.779,"end":6976.003,"text":"本院司法及法制、交通兩委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案"},{"start":6991.32,"end":6992.201,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":7008.573,"end":7029.298,"text":"以法來提這些人選這個是完全按照法律的規定這不是說你現在已經是cancel內閣了還來提cancel內閣法律還是規定你必須要有行政上的一個作為那至於說怎麼樣的一個產生我相信我今天也聽了很多委員的一個高見那可能今天就比較不容易大家要達到一致的一個看法了"},{"start":7033.468,"end":7036.209,"text":"剪短講一下"},{"start":7062.403,"end":7063.684,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":7078.649,"end":7103.109,"text":"因為剛才瑞雄我聽瑞雄或者嘉賓剛才講的當然聽起來也似乎不無道理其實我還是要我告訴你但是我要堅持我們修正因為我們的版本我要告訴你們我想我們也我跟洪孟楷委員我們四個人也有提出一個修正動議我們的修正動議當然就是第一個剛才大家一直講的連任這個部分大概連任一次"},{"start":7103.729,"end":7113.753,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":7129.52,"end":7151.518,"text":"及時務經驗各推薦7名行政院推薦7位我們這個政黨推薦7位推薦14位出來之後再由行政院組成的提名審查委員會那行政院推薦的審查委員會由行政院推薦3名那有各政黨一起在立法院所占席次比例推薦8名學者總共11名"},{"start":7152.859,"end":7169.158,"text":"所以這樣子一個設計其實有沒有所謂的4613號的所謂的這個有違憲這樣的一個設計其實我們這樣的一個做法因為我們現在就看到整個NCC它的獨立性、中立性大家有意見"},{"start":7170.379,"end":7194.819,"text":"所以到底我們立法院能不能夠監督制衡?能不能參與我們的一些制衡的一個意見呢?我看四字六一三號其實他也講到說其實立法院固然有監督制衡的權利那也就是說有肯認說立法院有制衡的權利只是不能實質的去剝奪我們行政院的人事的任命權或進而取代之的"},{"start":7195.339,"end":7196.3,"text":"審查委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案"},{"start":7212.248,"end":7224.551,"text":"擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":7238.666,"end":7240.489,"text":"擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十條及第十條"},{"start":7245.648,"end":7269.21,"text":"所以我看起來這個發揮我們該自治613號講的我們還是要有一些監督制衡的力量完全就是說這個行政院提名的人選我們立法院完全就是說大家到最後就沒有辦法就形成一致的共識去對於這個人選大家又在審這個行使統一選的時候會有很多的意見"},{"start":7270.691,"end":7287.017,"text":"對這個人選所以這樣的設計其實上看起來我是覺得沒有違憲的問題如果你對於說我們講說這些審查委員是八個人大家有意見我們還可以討論或者行政院你人數要多一點你推薦的人數要多一點這個可以討論的"},{"start":7288.477,"end":7303.543,"text":"所以這樣的設計我是覺得符合我們4-613號的解釋所以我們會做這樣子的一個修正動議那另外就是最後就是就那個到底任期屆滿得不得延任的一個規定"},{"start":7304.503,"end":7305.805,"text":"委員洪孟楷"},{"start":7324.795,"end":7329.521,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具、「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":7344.588,"end":7352.197,"text":"由立法院行使同意權就夠了嗎?還是必須在提名過程當中加入了一個由各政黨比例構成的審查委員會來進行中階制審查?"},{"start":7357.083,"end":7382.518,"text":"二、萬年條款還是延任條款?是延任條款還是萬年條款?三、任期交錯、任期的半半交錯到底有沒有必要性?我想今天我們就設定在這三個部分首先中華民國憲法本文第八十條法官必須超出黨派之外獨立行使職權包括司法院的大法官也透過這一條"},{"start":7383.601,"end":7394.755,"text":"但是大家以為考試院委員、考試委員、監察委員有沒有要超出黨派獨立行使職權呢?沒有一直到《憲法徵求條文》才讓考試委員跟監察委員必須超出黨派獨立行使職權"},{"start":7401.089,"end":7407.635,"text":"中華民國憲法本文當中有指明要超出黨派的除了這三個機關之外就有中華民國國軍必須超越黨派效忠國家連憲法本文規定的必須獨立行使政權的大法官由總統提名、送交、立法院行使統一之後就足夠獨立了"},{"start":7427.659,"end":7454.925,"text":"有人說因為這個大法官都是總統提名的一手提名的坦白說配合我們的政修條文每一個總統只要任滿八年他可以把十七名大法官全部提名對十五名一個七一個八對兩批十五名大法官全部提名有人因此而這樣質疑說都有同一個總統提名的這十五名大法官沒有辦法獨立行使職權嗎沒有啊"},{"start":7457.273,"end":7479.892,"text":"什麼是要保證他的獨立行使之權?制度上的保障之外還有就是立法院同意權的行使啊所以只要立法院行使的人是同意權提名機關他所提名的人選勢必要通過民意機關同意權的行使才能確保他能夠有他的獨立性"},{"start":7481.325,"end":7496.03,"text":"大法官是如此、考試委員是如此、監察委員也是如此沒有理由說中選會委員、公平教育委員還有NCC委員一定要再透過一個中介的以正當比例組成的審查委員會來進行審查"},{"start":7498.211,"end":7515.587,"text":"不管他最後是按照這個名單來交付立法院行使同意權還是由行政院長參酌之後來交付交給立法院來行使同意權完完全全沒有這個必要性4至613號就是講這個道理簡單講就是這個道理獨立機關或者憲法規定必須獨立行使職權的"},{"start":7521.249,"end":7548.476,"text":"現任機關經過了人事同意權立法院行使之後他就能夠遵守並有效的依法來行使職權第二個那到底是延任條款還是萬年條款呢剛剛呢我一旦用了很多的斗膽來形容啊哇 這個國民大會變成萬年國會是我們黃委員、我們朱多委員年輕學生時代反萬年國會第一個撻伐的對象"},{"start":7550.216,"end":7557.202,"text":"大法官在1990年的4至261號憲法第28條國民大會必須六年改選一次它的任期到次屆開會前為止有沒有成為萬年條款?沒有啊!它連違憲都沒有啊!真正讓萬年國會產生的4至31號講的是什麼?"},{"start":7578.218,"end":7592.928,"text":"講的是立法院、講的是監察院啦在4至31當中講到了每3年、每6年改選的監察委員、立法委員當時因為國家遭逢重大變故沒辦法定期改選不得不讓他繼續的延任"},{"start":7594.468,"end":7623.376,"text":"但是在四至二六一號也寫說即使國家造逢變故也不能讓他繼續的延任下去所以針對國民大會也做了如上的解釋二六一號很清楚說憲法二十八條規定本來國民大會的任期可以到下屆開會前為止這本來就是可以的但是基於民意機關基於政權機關他有定期改選的必要所以呢他也沒有讓他可以無限期的延任下去"},{"start":7624.266,"end":7637.955,"text":"民意機關、政權機關定期改選不管是講立法院、講當時的監察院或講國民大會都是因為他們的委員、他們的成員是透過跟人民契約有任期的名牌規定"},{"start":7639.141,"end":7658.483,"text":"目前公平教育委員、NCC委員、中選委員他不是跟人民打的選舉契約四年一任或幾年一任他是代表國家獨立機關來行使公權力所以剛剛我們的主委也講了這個延任條款"},{"start":7659.043,"end":7682.865,"text":"事實上就是避免他的委員合議制的委員因為缺額無法過半以至無法持續的行使這一點不獨NCC如此中選會也是如此公平交易委員會也是如此所以這是延任條款還是萬年條款我想我就不敢斗膽的再加以延伸但是至少我認為現行的現行法是可以運作的最後一個"},{"start":7683.726,"end":7695.722,"text":"到底任期辦辦交錯這樣可不可以那我覺得呢在這裡跟翁委員做一個分享個人過去在地方政府擔任副首長我們地方有一個有限電視費率審議委員會"},{"start":7700.888,"end":7720.981,"text":"規定每位委員只能做兩任,因為涉及到費率的審議非常敏感,壓力很大,業者非常關切。但是我們明白地在裡面,透過自然行程的慣例,我們每次改任都改任一半,確保任期交錯,新舊經驗傳承。"},{"start":7724.144,"end":7749.136,"text":"大法官有沒有這個制度?有!目前正確條文裡面大法官15名分為七人組跟八人組當年就是一組四年,一組兩年所以讓他任期交錯很可惜後來在馬總統任內由於他新提名補提名的大法官並沒有做自原任期屆滿為止早生他的任期重新計算造成現在這個半半交錯變成全時交錯"},{"start":7750.757,"end":7775.984,"text":"所以如果真的委員們認為NCC的委員的任期交錯制、辦辦交錯制要予以確認的話那麼我們或許可以思考在未來修正動議的時候可以再納入這樣的可能性讓他這七名當中三名跟四名呢他們如果因為有狀況不能夠提任時他的延任呢會吃到下一任的任期簡單講他本應該四年的"},{"start":7776.923,"end":7778.485,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":7791.923,"end":7819.905,"text":"任期原來的設計是半半交錯那真的要維持它的話就必須在設有延任條款的同時將這個延任的期限予以切到、切期不然的話不切期延任的人後來再提名任命的人任期重新起算四年這個半半交錯就無法維持以上呢供各位朝野黨派的委員參考三個部分第一所謂的審查委員會並不足以去保障它的獨立性"},{"start":7821.784,"end":7829.39,"text":"獨立性也不需要藉由黨派比例產生的審查委員來確認第二所謂的嚴任條款如果視為獨立機關"},{"start":7831.72,"end":7853.586,"text":"不間斷的行使職權之必要,可以參考4至261號的說明大法官為什麼認為政權機關也有不得不中斷的必要,可以參考第三,任期半半交作制,如果真的要確保有其必要的話那嚴任制跟任期半半交作制要做一個折衷的一些銜接避免嚴任制破壞了任期半半交作制,這一點本席可以考慮"},{"start":7860.37,"end":7884.274,"text":"我想回應一下翁曉琳委員您是留學德國的我雖然沒有留學德國但是我有一些嘗試性的判斷想要來就教於您我覺得也是要清楚的反駁您剛提到說這一次NCC的修法希望說台灣能夠來借鏡跟學習德國的經驗因為就德國的經驗呢他們是可以把權力跟立法機關分享"},{"start":7885.334,"end":7887.995,"text":"這不是廢話嗎?德國是內閣制啊!德國是行政立法合一內閣官員就是國會議員啊!內閣制啊!台灣是什麼制度呢?台灣是雙手掌制啊!台灣不是內閣制啊!怎麼會這樣就風馬牛不相及把一個制度拿來就類比說德國可以這樣"},{"start":7910.523,"end":7934.606,"text":"來共享行政立法共享權利所以臺灣的NCC委員的提名跟任命就要讓立法院來主導或是取代行政院的人事權這完全是錯誌的完全就是一個錯誤的比喻第二個德國的NCC類似NCC的組織是什麼?文委員"},{"start":7936.069,"end":7938.272,"text":"德國類似NCC的組織是什麼?"},{"start":7953.735,"end":7972.117,"text":"德國在中央是FNAFederal Network Agency他是處理德國聯邦網路局他過去曾經是電信郵政管理局然後電力瓦斯電信郵政鐵路現在是他的管轄"},{"start":7973.098,"end":7998.745,"text":"因為它是聯邦制所以它的廣播電視的事務就我所知應當是各邦去處理所以跟台灣是一個獨立的NCC來全部來縱理狀況也不一樣這是我的理解我不一定完全正確但是這是我的理解那我現在要回到這個本題也就是今天的修法"},{"start":7999.565,"end":8005.792,"text":"完全是在一個在野黨的委員認為也相信政治是可以凌駕專業的"},{"start":8008.035,"end":8031.278,"text":"就是建構在一個很大的歧異點也因為在野黨的委員不相信行政權不相信行政權的任命所以認為由立法院自己來取代行政權自己來任命會比行政院的任命更好這是你們的命題第二個在野黨委員的命題是你們不相信大法官"},{"start":8032.139,"end":8050.652,"text":"因為你們認為大法官過去就這幾年是蔡政府所提名的你們都綠而不談這是國會行使的同意權你們認為這是蔡英文來任命的所以這些大法官都是有民進黨的背景所以你們認為大法官的釋憲解釋你們的不採信"},{"start":8053.601,"end":8081.482,"text":"在這個重大的起義的前提下你們就是不相信國家的憲法如果說在這個基本的前提上有這麼大的分歧我覺得真的很難在這個地方繼續對話你們認為如果是現在行政院提名的NCC的委員就必然是民進黨介入的政治打手你們認為這樣不行所以乾脆就開放各黨在立法院各政黨都派自己的打手來好了"},{"start":8082.625,"end":8105.336,"text":"用政治來介入專業,這樣是對嗎?你縱使不相信民進黨好了也不要不相信自己現在是國會多數啊任命權是行政院任命但是要經立法院來行使同意權現在的國會多數是藍白陣營啊"},{"start":8106.707,"end":8135.038,"text":"所以說我覺得如果都奠基於不相信別人只相信自己自己最大自己最好自己認命的就是絕對的專業自己認命的就是絕對的多元那我覺得這很難對話下去在各個議案上都會有這樣子很大的困境但奉勸一句就算不相信別人也要相信自己現在的國會多數是國民黨跟民眾黨的合作"},{"start":8136.229,"end":8163.725,"text":"任何的人事任命也都要經過你們這一關但是不要把一個制度面的遊戲規則去做一個任意的破壞否則我常常在說制度是永續的不論誰執政這個制度都要永續下去哪一天也有可能未來的執政黨可能也會政黨輪替這個都是台灣民主的常態"},{"start":8165.006,"end":8181.169,"text":"但是因為現在你們不相信民進黨的行政權你們就認為要用立法院的政黨比例制來打破現在既有的很穩定運作的狀態跟制度的設計我認為這樣真是過度的政治化所以我也覺得很貴賬但這個是要做成這個紀錄上所以NCC回到我的"},{"start":8191.658,"end":8212.835,"text":"初衷現行的法條是經過非常多次的檢驗運行也經過大法官的釋字讓過去違憲的條文失效那不要切莫再重蹈覆轍不要再一次要站在憲法的對立面我認為這是一個動盪而不是一個穩定運作的專業獨立機關的NCC好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":8218.785,"end":8238.432,"text":"還有什麼要...是,我想要再補充一下剛剛胡適耀委員講到我們現在台灣是雙手掌制所以似乎德國的內閣制裡面的制度都一無可取之處都不值得學習我沒有說一無可取,你不要...那包含我剛剛所講的斷章取義,我是說不能全盤移植,copy,好嗎?讓他講完"},{"start":8242.734,"end":8257.793,"text":"那麼我現在要講的就是德國還是很多地方不管在司法、法制在各個領域上面的這個措施都是非常值得我們去學習的為什麼人家是一個民主成熟的國家"},{"start":8258.534,"end":8275.953,"text":"為什麼人家在通訊傳播事業的監理上面沒有出現有受到民眾這麼多的質疑說他們是不獨立他們高度的政治化就是因為他們的制度設計良善所以減少了人民的疑慮剛剛講到德國他是一個聯邦"},{"start":8279.837,"end":8290.041,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":8297.884,"end":8320.116,"text":"他就是一個非常大的一個組織一個類似也是合一制的機構在法律上面明定由各個不同的社會、政治、宗教、團體等等要任命要提名任命相關的委員那不僅是"},{"start":8321.417,"end":8343.103,"text":"由提名然後直接經過他們的議會就同意任命所以這個部分來講是在德國的地方就是這麼做那您剛剛說的在聯邦中央體制他們這叫做Bundestagsagentur它基本上它是一個相當於我們這樣的網路總署的一個聯邦網路總署的一個概念那它確實它是不管它是不負責廣電媒體事務的所以我現在要講的"},{"start":8353.226,"end":8379.353,"text":"對你這個部分是沒有講出是正確的但是我只是要說人家在法律裡面規定的清清楚楚沒有像我們是完全是由行政院這裡一手掌握全部的委員我現在要講的就是民主制度它就是個權力分立互相制衡的制度我今天我作為立法委員我做"},{"start":8380.37,"end":8407.646,"text":"代表立法權我本來就有這個義務責任我要去監督行政監督行政機關這個本來就是屬於憲法上面權力分立原則裡面所講的什麼叫制衡我如果說這個完全這個行政院提名阿貓阿狗我都照單權說這叫做尊重嗎我可以完全信任嗎我認為說不要曲解了這個"},{"start":8409.927,"end":8430.733,"text":"我們作為在野黨立委說我們就不相信行政院就不相信你們所提名的如果你們提名的是夠專業、夠獨立客觀的人我們仍然是會通過那只是說從前幾年的經驗來看我們就看不到你們所提名的NCC委員他有事做了什麼會讓社會大眾認為他們是獨立客觀在行使職權的這樣的一個事情那麼"},{"start":8438.827,"end":8440.63,"text":"這個部分是我想要強調"},{"start":8444.352,"end":8468.485,"text":"作為行政、立法、司法、考試監察這幾個重要的權力機關大家是一個動態的合作動態的製衡的關係不是說我們好像都是一直杯葛其他的權力機關不是,如果說是行政院也是基於同樣尊重"},{"start":8469.105,"end":8478.733,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人�"},{"start":8480.107,"end":8490.851,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":8499.614,"end":8516.389,"text":"委員會組織法我們是希望能夠去建立更好的制度不管未來誰執政我們都期待這個委員會它的運作是能夠受到人民信賴大家會相信它是獨立行使職權的"},{"start":8519.627,"end":8538.288,"text":"吳委員簡短我簡短我也覺得留學德國的翁曉琳委員講到德國的制度就非常自知烏烏跟詞窮但至少你也驗證了吳思耀的說法沒有錯您剛剛講我一定要澄清"},{"start":8539.389,"end":8565.271,"text":"我從頭到尾都在說不同的制度台灣是雙手掌制德國是內閣制制度不能直接拿來複製貼上我的意思就是要告訴你們這一次在野黨不管在各國的制度上都是喜歡去減下複製貼上而沒有去思考整個權力運作包括你們常常在講的美國制怎麼樣事實上制度就不一樣嘛"},{"start":8566.492,"end":8581.669,"text":"五權憲法、三權憲法就是不一樣所以剛剛我對您提出來的挑戰您也沒有辦法回應我您剛剛在說的德國的制度人家可以全力分享因為它就是內閣制行政立法就是國會議員跟內閣閣員一致"},{"start":8584.912,"end":8589.399,"text":"那第二個講到來講這個什麼中央的這個我說的FNA好啦不要插話FNA也好或是各邦你剛剛的講法都驗證了我也是做足功課來的好"},{"start":8598.103,"end":8622.108,"text":"那現在回到本題check and balance您剛講了很多次check and balance制衡制衡在我們的制度設計上在NCC的人事任命上就是在台灣的憲政基礎上就是行政權擁有任命權立法權行使同意權這就是台灣的憲政規範下的check and balance就是如此"},{"start":8624.813,"end":8642.98,"text":"不是你們現在成為國會多數你們就認為你們可以把行政權的任命權拿到成為由政黨來任命這個大大的去溢出了立法院應當擁有的權利不要再一次站在憲法的對立面"},{"start":8643.92,"end":8662.905,"text":"所以講回來呢不同的制度不要直接複製、貼上這樣是混淆視聽我們可以學習國外的制度良善的部分我都同意但是也不要一再的去蔑視了NCC從過去運作到現在在你們眼中只有罪惡"},{"start":8664.145,"end":8690.654,"text":"好像這個機關組織從以前到現在都是好像講的都是政治打手我覺得對於專業被任命而且被過去國會來行使同意權而產出的NCC委員都是不公平的所以不要過度的把政治的手伸到獨立機關裡面去不要公然的把政黨想要遂行的政治目的"},{"start":8692.135,"end":8705.951,"text":"來升到獨立機關裡頭我真的認為大家擁有權力更要自治彼此尊重行政立法彼此尊重就嚴禁於此"},{"start":8706.511,"end":8712.113,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、"},{"start":8725.279,"end":8753.871,"text":"那我們要不要就做...因為今天我們的協商過程公開嘛發言內容也都有錄音、錄影而且列入紀錄那因為目前這個條文還是需要持續溝通取得共識所以說後續我是依據立法院執行法第十二章的規定辦理好不好對就是...對...對...對...那那個後面還有事"},{"start":8757.128,"end":8758.189,"text":"審查委員會保留修正動議、經負二讀委員會提案"},{"start":8786.898,"end":8795.427,"text":"那這樣我補充說明一下針對五、七、八、十條一併送協商那現在散會"},{"start":8811.598,"end":8814.807,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十條及第十條"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}