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":"為議而決的程序嚴重瑕疵違反憲法第63條議決法律案的規定故上開兩案修正條文之全部難任已具備法律的基本成立要件本院基於憲政機關需要依法行政的立場執行上極有自愛難行"},{"start":2251.141,"end":2271.246,"text":"第三點,總統進行國情報告相關規定違反憲法。依憲法遵修條文第四條第三項規定,立法院於每年集會時得聽取總統國情報告,並無可與總統定期為國情報告之義務。"},{"start":2279.005,"end":2305.342,"text":"立法院職權行使法修正條文第15條之一及第15條之二第一項規定總統定期或不定期赴立法院進行國情報告將妨礙總統日常國務的行使另外總統國情報告的時程及內容"},{"start":2306.334,"end":2332.507,"text":"也極可能與本院的施政報告重疊。立法院職權行使法修正條文第15條之四第二項及第三項規定立法委員口頭詢問總統應依序及時回答書面問題總統應於七日內以書面答覆"},{"start":2334.181,"end":2361.226,"text":"性質上均屬於執行總統的規定但總統為國家的元首對外代表中華民國對內統帥全國陸海空三軍並有任免官員授予榮典與赦免等重要的職權以及享有國家機密、刑事豁免等特權與一般行政首長並不相同"},{"start":2362.267,"end":2388.741,"text":"不應將民意機關對一般行政首長的執行權套用在總統身上總統由全國人民選舉產生與大院委員各自具有民意基礎以及民主的正當性總統定期接受民意檢驗直接對人民負責並不是對立法院負責"},{"start":2390.394,"end":2410.373,"text":"為憲法規定是由總統任命的行政院院長及行政團隊依憲法規定的方式對立法院負責。上述修正條文的規定是將造成總統國情報告以及行政院院長施政報告"},{"start":2411.687,"end":2440.212,"text":"均由貴院委員質詢的重疊與衝突的現象問亂憲法所定行政權之分工以及行政權對立法院負責之權力分立以及制衡的設計另外總統執選之前總統是由國民大會間接選舉產生依照國民大會相關規定國民大會代表"},{"start":2441.553,"end":2462.805,"text":"在總統進行國情報告時並不得發問或中斷在今日總統與人民直接選舉產生並且不是對立法院負責的現行憲法制度下立法院自無對總統發問或中斷發言之理而況"},{"start":2467.711,"end":2487.717,"text":"八十九年修正後,國民大會聽取總統國情報告的職權,已由立法院來行使。立法院繼承了國民大會的職權,當沒有繼承的職權,超越原職權的道理。第四點,執行權"},{"start":2490.169,"end":2516.682,"text":"調查權、聽證的行使即違反權力分立原則而且侵害人民的基本權利。立法院職權行使法修正條文第45條第一項及第二項第47條第一項及第二項第59條之三第一項都規定立法院行使調查權、調閱權"},{"start":2518.991,"end":2547.5,"text":"跟舉行聽證會時得要求政府機關部隊提供文件資料出席提供證言表達意見及接受詢問然貴院調查的範圍已擴張到對相關議案或者與立法委員職權相關的事項"},{"start":2550.599,"end":2562.796,"text":"這個與司法院釋制第585號及729號解釋所揭示的需行使憲法所賦予的職權有重大關係"},{"start":2564.622,"end":2591.273,"text":"以及需基於目的與範圍均屬明確的特定議案並與其行使憲法上職權有重大關係且非屬法律所禁止者違憲以上的規定並不相符如果大院啟動調查的目的是為了清查政府弊案依憲府的規定"},{"start":2592.168,"end":2617.244,"text":"是屬於監察院以及司法機關的全責範圍。以司法院釋字第325號以及585號釋字向有關機關調閱文件原本或要求與調查事項相關之人民或政府人員陳述證言或表示意見"},{"start":2619.073,"end":2646.459,"text":"都必須經立法院院會決議使得為之。立法院職權行使法修正條文第45條第1項、第2項以及47條第1項、第2項有關由委員會決議所設調查專案小組行使調查權的組織與程序與上開司法院的解釋"},{"start":2650.607,"end":2670.462,"text":"立法院職權行使法修正條文第25條第二項、第51條之一第五項所定,拒絕答覆、拒絕證言或拒絕提供文件資料是有。第59條之五第一項所定,拒絕證言或表達意見是有。"},{"start":2672.53,"end":2695.589,"text":"並未包括國家機關獨立行使職權受憲法之保護者也未包括行政首長之行政特權更未包括檢查機關之偵查卷證令第47條第一項也未明定拒絕調查事由"},{"start":2696.451,"end":2724.469,"text":"均於司法院釋字第325號及585號以及729號解釋一旨不符而違反權力分立原則此外,第25條第二項及50條之一第五項又將該等拒絕事由的認定全權交由主席判斷將造成被質詢人及受調查者"},{"start":2727.391,"end":2743.568,"text":"現於應議會主席要求回答而違反保密義務以及為應議會主席要求回答而被移送彈劾懲戒或採取行政法的義務衝突"},{"start":2746.633,"end":2774.507,"text":"立法院職權行使法修正條文第45條第一項及第二項第47條第一項及第二項第59條之三第一項都規定立法院的要求法人團體或社會上有關係人員提供文件資料出席提供證言表達意見以及接受詢問"},{"start":2777.059,"end":2804.967,"text":"但是立法院行使何種憲法的職權必須強制人民配合並不明確而且不區分調查事由的目的一律科與人民強制接受調查的義務難為已屬最小的侵害手段又因為調查目的等相關規定的不明確"},{"start":2806.38,"end":2831.827,"text":"更難以衡量立法院所採強制調查人民的手段與予所達成的目的兼之公共利益是否相當此外,修正條文為就作為調查對象的法人、團體、社會上有關係人員的要件以及範圍予以限縮"},{"start":2833.583,"end":2860.479,"text":"將造成一般人民隨時可能被立法院要求提供資料出席作證表達意見均有質疑調查違反比例原則的情形。立法院職權行使法修正條文第五十條之一第五項第五十條之二第五十九條之四均規定"},{"start":2861.681,"end":2861.781,"text":"第五點"},{"start":2884.881,"end":2914.268,"text":"人事同意權的行使．導致憲法．法定機關職權行使．產生摯愛．而且與比例原則及正當法律程序不符。立法院職權行使法修正條文第29條第三項規定人事同意權案交付立法院全院委員會或相關委員會審查至交付審查之日起"},{"start":2915.726,"end":2943.552,"text":"期間不得少於一個月但是未規定最長的審查期間。審查期間過長將會影響憲法及法定機關的組織組成以及重要職務的選缺導致法定職權的行使產生摯愛。令修正條文第29條之一第三項及30條之三規定"},{"start":2945.885,"end":2973.721,"text":"被提名人應提出結文或拒絕第30條之一第二項則規定其罰則但是被提名人即尚未通過同意以及任命他並不具有公職身份在書面答覆時或列席說明時有答覆不實或提供虛偽資料情勢者"},{"start":2976.343,"end":3000.841,"text":"立法院應不同意其任免即可達到目的又被提名人為政府的重要職務的可能性人選在立法院審查時被科與拒絕的義務以及裁罰將形同將其視為一般有作證義務的證人顯屬地位的錯置處置的失衡"},{"start":3004.841,"end":3031.436,"text":"也不符比例的原則。大院將憲法或法律行使人事同意權時,被提名人並非均為熟人法律者,所以在被提名人提出結文或拒絕時,也應該充分告知他的權利義務以及違反的法律效果。"},{"start":3032.382,"end":3059.656,"text":"並得協同律師或相關人員協助但上開條文都無相關的規定實在是不符合正當法律程序。第六妨礙立法委員行使質詢權、調查權及舉行聽證會時之處罰規定有違法律明確性原則、正當法律程序以及比例原則"},{"start":3062.076,"end":3087.455,"text":"立法院職權行使法修正條文第25條第一項所定,質詢之答覆不得超過質詢範圍之外,反質詢與第二條所定的隱匿資訊、其他藐視國會之行為以及刑法第141條之一所定究其所知重要關係事項為虛偽陳述的定義"},{"start":3091.741,"end":3113.352,"text":"並不明確,不具可預見性,而且實務上質詢事項廣泛,答詢內容可能為法律的解釋、政策的說明或是輿論的回應,不一而主,未必皆與事實釐清或證明有關。"},{"start":3114.656,"end":3140.888,"text":"更常充滿主觀上的認知、期待、訴求等等涉及價值判斷之延遲而且質詢內容有可能屬於正在進行中的事件或基於錯誤訊息而來的此種情形如何認定政府人員的答詢是反質詢是隱匿資訊或者是"},{"start":3144.895,"end":3171.302,"text":"虛偽的陳述而科與法者除有違法法律明確性外執行上恐怕會爭議不斷國會質詢的制度是責任政治的具體表現與國會調查制度不同政府人員答覆內容不當應依其身份分別負行政責任或政治責任"},{"start":3172.492,"end":3197.515,"text":"只符合當前民主國家的政治與法律制度。修正條文直接予以處罰的規定有欠公平跟合理。立法院職權行使法修正條文第五十條之二第五十九條之四規定接受調查詢問的人員需經主席同意"},{"start":3198.584,"end":3225.023,"text":"於必要時使得協同律師或相關專業人員到場協助,削弱被調查人透過專業協助辨識其是否得以拒絕的能力。況當任會議主席之立法委員為求調查目的之達成,能否橫憑考量立法院職權之行使"},{"start":3226.992,"end":3243.644,"text":"與個人權益之保護也有疑慮。令立法院職權行使法修正條文第25條第5項、第59條之五第6項及刑法141條之一都未規定拒絕的程序"},{"start":3244.588,"end":3267.618,"text":"就克與緩緩或刑事處罰,均不能保障公務人員確實明瞭相應的法律責任,有違法律正當的法律程序。依司法院釋字第585號解釋,立法院行使調查權所附屬的強制權利,並以科處緩緩為限,"},{"start":3271.65,"end":3297.062,"text":"但《立法院職權行使法》修正條文第25條第9項第59條之五第5項刑法第141條之一對政府人員受質詢及出席聽證會為證言時為虛偽陳述除於行政法外又能刻以刑事處分以欲願、散開"},{"start":3298.689,"end":3322.735,"text":"司法院解釋意旨所揭示的合理的手段。最後在各種藐視國會行為的處罰構成要件不明確受規範者不具處罰可預見性而且正當法律程序均有欠缺之情況下可想見未來相關處罰規定在執行上"},{"start":3325.492,"end":3351.888,"text":"均有自愛即使定有司法救濟的途徑審判機關也難合理地進行判斷只是讓政治紛擾延伸到司法機關而已以上所舉都是違反憲法原理以致自愛難行之處均為最嚴重以及外界民眾最為詬病者"},{"start":3353.318,"end":3380.59,"text":"實際上相關法條修正的整體設計呈現了失衡跟失當難與權力分立原則契合行政院經審慎評估結果認為大院所通過的修法違反民主原則違反權力分立違反法律明確性違反比例原則以及違反法律的正當程序"},{"start":3383.258,"end":3409.617,"text":"卻有自愛難行之處嚴重影響人民的權利義務以及機關權限行使甚為巨大因此以憲法賦予行政院的職權就該兩項法案修正案及全部已請大院復議我衷心的期盼透過"},{"start":3411.004,"end":3438.212,"text":"法律案覆議的憲政程序各位委員先進都能夠體諒人民的心聲站在人民的立場以及向歷史負責的態度行政立法兩院攜手合作共同維護憲政體制及保障人權並以深化民主理性和諧的溝通對話"},{"start":3440.592,"end":3462.12,"text":"在乎憲政體制及憲法原則下積極追求國會改革真正的願景以上報告 懇請委員先進大力的支持我衷心期待這次覆議案的審查能夠順利圓滿讓所有國人對於"},{"start":3469.213,"end":3487.562,"text":"國家的行政、立法兩院之間的互動以及立法的品質對人民權利的保護再度的具有最大的信心謝謝各位委員先進拜託大家謝謝"},{"start":3493.449,"end":3513.411,"text":"謝謝主委長的報告報告全院委員會我們現在進行詢答每位委員詢答的時間為十分鐘以疾問疾答的方式進行輪到發言的委員如果不在場會被視為放棄首先我們請傅坤祺委員發言"},{"start":3539.473,"end":3566.301,"text":"委員長主席請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備選副委員好卓院長好本席再三向您提醒"},{"start":3567.481,"end":3594.45,"text":"這是過去30年來民進黨這些先進不斷地要求台灣要民主要陽光要透明要反貪腐讓國會能夠有能讓政府能夠有效率能夠連能所以過去不管是林作水也好沈富雄也好還有這麼多的民進黨的先進在30年前"},{"start":3595.137,"end":3622.415,"text":"推出希望能夠有國會聽證跟調查權我們現在看到這一代的民進黨對自己過去一再堅持的主張我們表示非常多的遺憾但是總院長既然提出了覆議案我們既然還是針對你所提出的七項我們逐一的來討論這個就是民進黨行政院所提出的圖卡沒有實質討論違反民主原則"},{"start":3623.362,"end":3625.783,"text":"這次的國會改革修法總共在委員會3月21號委員會專報4月1號委員會排審、詢答"},{"start":3648.693,"end":3659.783,"text":"4月3日、10日、11日三場公聽會4月15日委員會審查5月8日委員會草擬協商16日院會的草擬協商17日院長召集三次草擬協商5月17日、21日、24日、28日院會逐條審查經過13次的院會及委員會的審查及協商才三讀通過"},{"start":3674.895,"end":3700.381,"text":"院長哪裏有沒有經過實質討論?哪裏?謝謝副委員提醒五月十七、二十一、二十四、二十八那四天的院會逐條審查呈現什麼樣的狀況?就是為國人所詬病的整個討論的過程三場公聽會到底是誰舉辦?沒有關係院長齁這個你要持續堅持那本席就提醒你"},{"start":3701.511,"end":3709.749,"text":"十三次的院會委員會的討論才把國會的修法改革三讀通過如果你認為"},{"start":3711.388,"end":3728.562,"text":"十三次還不算有實質討論以後民進黨推出的法案要在本院通過那我們看要幾次討論十三次都不算有實質的討論那以後行政院提的法案我們逐一來檢視我們再看一下國務紀要費阿扁除罪花當時怎麼通過的快期法90條之一直接送出委員會"},{"start":3741.994,"end":3744.458,"text":"這就是民進黨再過來說誰贊成誰反對舉手投票誰知道這是基本常識"},{"start":3755.135,"end":3783.027,"text":"20172月3號國會頻道直播這是民進黨提案的從那天開始包括我們現在都是全國直播在這裡講什麼做什麼通通清清楚楚怎麼會沒有人知道院長如果齁你的國際常識不足的話本席可以來這邊給你尊尊教誨歐洲議會英國議會聯合國到現在都是舉手表決所以沒有什麼叫做舉手表決誰知道第二"},{"start":3784.591,"end":3809.27,"text":"混淆雙首長制,不可以質詢總統總統沒有接受立委質詢的義務來,我們來看一下影片,我不願意,不要,下一步請大家注意,立法院所有的質詢所有的報告總質詢還是委員會,都是極問極大的永遠面對所有的問題"},{"start":3813.652,"end":3824.234,"text":"又是民進黨的主張卓士競飛沒有關係這又是民進黨一貫的詐騙一貫的手法再過來獨裁別調查民眾聽證範圍過廣我們看這是第幾條這是立法院職權行使法修正後46條之二顯得很清楚立法院職權行使之前調查所有的目的事項範圍"},{"start":3844.195,"end":3866.535,"text":"通通寫得很清楚在訴訟中或審判中的立法院不得行使調查權範圍鑑定得非常清楚這個是案子是誰提的來我們播放一下為什麼當時沒有過這是你認為不適當的46條之二民進黨版本無意通過對不起是通過的民進黨的版本過去為什麼沒有過"},{"start":3868.208,"end":3886.24,"text":"就是不適當然後再過來末世正當法律程序違反程序正義請律師拒絕證言請問一下卓律師你是學法律我請問一下行使作法27條除非是犯罪嫌疑人才可以請律師"},{"start":3887.679,"end":3901.309,"text":"政人到法院可以請律師嗎而且來這裡立法院聽證的民眾都是有涉及跟政府相關有勾結立法院立案調查來這裡作證作證怎麼可以帶律師"},{"start":3903.49,"end":3919.837,"text":"但是你要科政府人員可以移送刑法．而且科人民直接的發法．百姓到立法院的聽證會．他是沒有刑責．只有政府官員有刑責"},{"start":3920.977,"end":3948.263,"text":"對保護人民的基本權利,一點水都不能放。無期限審查人事同意權,說立法院人事同意權空轉政府,癱瘓政府,限制機關的運作。我們修正的條文,叫做29條修正以後,立法院修審查期間,人事審查期間不得少一個月,並於院會表決前十天擬拒審查報告,有什麼不對?"},{"start":3949.363,"end":3951.785,"text":"修正前立法院依照憲法104條徵修條文第五條、第六條、第七條"},{"start":3965.578,"end":3983.743,"text":"不經討論,交全院委員會審查。審查後,初院會以吳敬平投票表決。今院會委員二分之一同意為之。之前有任何的期間嗎?原本就沒有期間。所以,行政院門口不說八道,原本就沒有期間的限制。再過來下一條。懷疑官員虛偽陳述,可以刻以刑責。"},{"start":3994.254,"end":4009.645,"text":"這個完全是詐騙行政院的詐騙這一條是刑法一百四十一條之一哪裏是立法院的職權行使法在這裏造謠我們再次的強調再次強調中午宣在立法院聽證部長部長本席不要請你回答中華民國憲法刑法中華民國刑法一百四十一條之一"},{"start":4024.349,"end":4044.758,"text":"公務員在立法院聽證或受質詢時虛偽陳述者處一年下游七年不是立法院來判他是送法院來處理我相信這個結論就是委員你不是檢察官啦你每個委員會都在做法院這個質詢不是辦案質詢的不是檢察在做調查的那一個國家的官員可以偽造文書可以偽證免罪的好 最後一條"},{"start":4052.991,"end":4058.882,"text":"藐視國會定義不明,施以擴大立法院權責,所謂反資訊與逆資訊何謂藐視國會?"},{"start":4065.382,"end":4071.967,"text":"委員長你聽懂我的問題嗎?你聽懂我剛才答詢嗎?是不是吵幹什麼?好屎!好屎!紅屎!聽懂了沒?我覺得真的非常的離譜齁!這不是第1會議就是台灣人的願望!"},{"start":4085.537,"end":4095.427,"text":"我怕到時候投降的第一個是你,第二個是蔡英文啊!"},{"start":4102.705,"end":4122.13,"text":"請問這樣子有沒有對委員人身攻擊?這個可以算不算?花蓮縣議會的質詢院長是國會委員花蓮縣議會的質詢院長如果你用這種態度在立法院你不但不是大師兄不但沒有調和鼎賴你用這種方式"},{"start":4123.03,"end":4130.898,"text":"你用這種方式,這是國會!如果你不是行政院長,你的水平是地方議會議員,你可以這麼做!所以,卓院長,請尊重你是行政院長!你不是地方議會議員!"},{"start":4142.889,"end":4161.34,"text":"請你面對國會,要謙卑,要調和鼎賴,要好好的把你的職務做好。最後再提醒你,面對國人,我只是一個國人而已,我只是一般的國人。是,中華民國總統按照憲法來宣誓就職,請不要再推兩國論,不要再推兩國論,不要再推兩國論,請不要超越質詢的範圍。謝謝副坤祺委員質詢,謝謝左院長的備詢。"},{"start":4171.926,"end":4200.96,"text":"接下來,我們請登記第二號黃國昌委員之尋。謝謝院長。是不是麻煩有請行政院院長、左院長。再請左院長備選。"},{"start":4208.701,"end":4235.064,"text":"黃委員好院長好覆議案的提出上一次是在十年之前這個是非常嚴肅的憲政問題只不過今天只有十分鐘我具體的要請教我非常的遺憾我們的行政院已經成為了假訊息散播的中心充斥著假訊息這是行政院所提出來的七大覆議原因"},{"start":4235.845,"end":4257.683,"text":"藉由行政院的院會散播這個圖卡到臺灣每一個公民的手上我要第一個請教卓院長的事情是你們說懷疑公務員虛偽陳述就可以刻意刑責請問目前所通過的法律有哪一個懷疑公務員虛偽陳述就可以刻意刑責請說明"},{"start":4261.069,"end":4277.257,"text":"法律案件、法律內容我請部長說明各位委員報告那個刑法第五章之一那個憑名描述國會罪以及那個刑法141條之一的這個這次立法院通過的這些條文"},{"start":4278.918,"end":4296.87,"text":"這個是委員知道齁 這個質詢齁 質詢不能 質詢這個跟調查不一樣 質詢也不是檢管辦案 也不是法官辦案所以呢來我先請教一下部長啦 不要移轉問題的焦點嘛而且那個 而且質詢的內容是非常廣泛的 是包容萬象的 是不是跟我們先往那個執政追責 是特定的犯罪事實"},{"start":4304.176,"end":4305.857,"text":"法官或懷疑他虛偽陳述就判他刑責嗎?"},{"start":4332.26,"end":4340.343,"text":"這是我們法官暫定犯罪的標準嗎?來先停一下齁你們的圖卡是說懷疑新聞陳述就會科與刑責啊什麼叫科與刑責?那個判刑確定嘛檢察官會因為懷疑就起訴嗎?法官會因為懷疑就判刑確定嗎?來請教院長這個明顯就是違反了"},{"start":4361.738,"end":4362.799,"text":"法律明確性的原則"},{"start":4378.198,"end":4398.577,"text":"要在有代證事項的前提之下代證事項有沒有虛偽陳述嘛那這個代證事項有沒有虛偽陳述是不是法官判的是還是不是是主觀認定的是法官主觀認定的所以按照院長您的說法在立法院裡面是立法院可以行責還是法院可以行責"},{"start":4399.318,"end":4417.788,"text":"立法院不是司法機關所以我們才需要檢察官起訴才需要法院判刑嘛現在中華民國的法院有哪一個對你剛所講的代證事實構成要件虛偽陳述是只要懷疑"},{"start":4418.428,"end":4439.376,"text":"就可以被判刑確定,這很嚴重耶!你說清楚講明白,我要再移轉問題的章節!我希望立法院也不要這樣的做,我們是希望這樣子,重新審慎條文內容的文字。而且委員的質詢的內容,可能是來一種有錯誤的訊息的話。是沒有辦法回答你們自己所散佈出來的假訊息吧!我已經回答了,是你沒有聽到!"},{"start":4440.711,"end":4457.097,"text":"我已經回答了你的回答是什麼?中華民國的法院因為懷疑就會科與刑責?委員我們在講的是中華民國的立法院中華民國立法院不會科與刑責啊只有中華民國的法院會啊但是這個懷疑這個懷疑就是主公的認定立法委員不是檢察官的所以起訴的不是立法委員起訴的是檢察官啊"},{"start":4467.292,"end":4489,"text":"請訴的是檢察官啊檢察官會因為懷疑就起訴嗎來請教部長但是被追究被調查被偵辦的話這對官員是一個很大的一個危害了對你可以這樣講但你不可以說只懷疑就可以行責嘛來我們來看一下施改國事會議你們那個時候對美國聯邦法不好意思我再講話你一定要插嘴嗎"},{"start":4490.18,"end":4495.947,"text":"院長可不可以控制一下時間請暫停,這樣子秩序沒有辦法進行,院長你也可以看得出來,我都會給他們時間回答。"},{"start":4507.341,"end":4530.021,"text":"你到底是插話還是有請求部長有沒有針對問題回答全國人民透過直播都看得到請院長主持一下秩序時間暫停跟黃委員報告一下跟院長報告一下也跟所有的委員報告一下全院委員會所有的詢答用疑問疑答方式進行委員與官員共同使用詢答時間那麼委員詢問完畢之後再由官員來"},{"start":4534.484,"end":4551.257,"text":"答覆因此請委員跟官員彼此互相尊重也請官員特別拜託不要有搶答的情況黃委員請繼續好謝謝院長來進一步請教斯卡國式法務部所提出的會議資料依照美國聯邦法18條USC1001條的規定在國會"},{"start":4556.161,"end":4566.63,"text":"為虛偽陳述的時候除五年以下有期徒刑來請教一下院長或部長這樣子美國法的規範依照你們的標準有沒有違反法律明確性有沒有違反政黨法律程序"},{"start":4567.602,"end":4567.782,"text":"我為什麼會援引這個?"},{"start":4588.777,"end":4611.068,"text":"因為他的法律構成要件跟我們寫在刑法一百四十一條之一就一模一樣嘛!所以我才問你嘛!依照你們行政部法務部...不好意思不好意思院長這樣子我要怎麼質詢下去我問題都還沒有講完部長就要插嘴干擾我的質詢沒有關係啊我們都是法律人依法論法把事情講清楚就好了來!"},{"start":4612.628,"end":4634.774,"text":"這個構成要件依照部長您精湛的法學素養請教一下跟我們所通過的刑法一百四十四條之一哪裏不一樣請說明哪裏不一樣我們是五權憲法的國家所以你的意思是我國是五權憲法他們是三權分立所以政府現在勇敢於虛偽陳述我們國會的調查權事章構成要件哪裏不一樣請說明"},{"start":4641.636,"end":4650.706,"text":"我們國會的調查權齁,我們國會的調查權是在根據它是585號解釋,它只是一個補充性的一個權利而已,它最多只是一個科處罰判。法律要件不明確嘛,那我就問你"},{"start":4656.613,"end":4665.119,"text":"美國法的規範跟我們刑法一百四十四條一百四十一條之一哪裏構成要件不一樣這麼簡單的問題都回答不出來喔"},{"start":4686.753,"end":4705.374,"text":"在聯邦或邦的立法機關的調查委員會為虛偽陳述就涉及未經宣示的虛偽陳述而言是用一百五十三條一百五十三條的規範是什麼未經宣示的虛偽陳述三個月以上五年以下有期度性這個是德國新發展的規定來請教一家部長"},{"start":4706.455,"end":4725.053,"text":"這樣的構成要件跟我們所通過的構成要件哪裏不一樣請說明各位委員報告德國並沒有質詢需要說要入罪的質詢的內容它是根據質詢顯示根據憲法徵修條是三條第一項第一款而來的來我們再看一下立法機關的調查委員會文書的陳述我現在在請教你的是構成要件哪裏不一樣嗎"},{"start":4729.858,"end":4755.276,"text":"你怎麼會成為一個法律人不管不敢針對問題回答呢?好!所以你今天的立論就是五權分立跟三權分立五權分立跟三權分立你當作他入罪的一個法律人要見明確不明確大家心裡都有巴适來!我們接下來再看你說無限期審查人事同意權現行的條文有針對人事同意權的審查設上線嗎?"},{"start":4756.721,"end":4761.245,"text":"有嗎?而且我的問題是我們現行條文有設上限嗎?我們現行的條文有沒有設上限?現在沒有設上限你也同意嗎?"},{"start":4775.473,"end":4795.158,"text":"現在的條文有沒有設上線嗎?沒有嘛!所以按照你的看法,現行的條文是不是也違憲?只要沒有設上線,就是無限期!只要沒有設上線,就是違憲!我在請教的是,這是不是我們新任行政院院長的"},{"start":4796.338,"end":4819.409,"text":"發言委員你為什麼不設上線呢?對嘛!所以你認為現行的條文也違憲嘛!來!為什麼不設上線?我們來看一下2008年6月的時候馬英九提名司法院院長、副院長、監察院院長、副院長整個審查的期限喔前後一個例行12天一個例經19天來請教教院長你認為符合民主程序嗎?"},{"start":4821.001,"end":4849.746,"text":"你認為這樣符不符合民主程序?當年監察院的委員的行使也是這樣子所以你認為符不符合民主程序?如果立法院、大院真的要設一個好的可以好好的來討論要不要掌權、要不要設下程?這樣子的審查有沒有符合民主程序?程序要完整整套這樣的審查有沒有符合民主程序?剛剛委員拿德國、美國的對不起我現在用台灣的例子問你你又不回答來我們來看一下當初的賴清德是怎麼講的"},{"start":4850.836,"end":4863.366,"text":"人事同意權像趕鴨趕雞一樣趕,光憑一點資料就進行審查,這個要立委如何審查?一個月喔!你就說沒有設上限,就是無限期審查,我對於行政院造謠生事、散播假訊息這樣的行為深感不齒"},{"start":4873.964,"end":4876.706,"text":"接下來我們請登記第三號吳思瑤委員質詢"},{"start":4911.621,"end":4911.701,"text":"請卓院長備詢"},{"start":4937.844,"end":4960.078,"text":"委員長辛苦了。擴權不是改革,民主不能放水,所以本席吳思瑤我支持行政院的覆議案。我相信公委若是有道理就不用大聲聲。今天我在這裡,我不會拍桌,我也不會從頭到尾用著食指對著您。"},{"start":4961.019,"end":4987.222,"text":"我也一樣不會禁止您插嘴我歡迎隨時反質詢質詢就是相互的交流跟對話我更不會在這裡公然散佈假訊息因為時間有限那我盡可能最後給您綜合答覆的時間那我會努力的論述這段時間擴權法案的諸多弊端下一頁"},{"start":4988.936,"end":5014.83,"text":"沒有討論不是民主既然國會不討論就讓社會來討論所以行政院提出的覆議案就是讓國會也好讓社會也好重新來審視這樣的擴權惡法他是一個review他是一個rediscussion他是一個revaluation所以"},{"start":5015.765,"end":5042.507,"text":"我認為他是一個議案的延長賽更是一個全台灣深化民主的全民公民課那院長我問您喔您對於覆議案的行使有多大的把握表決的結果我說過委員都是經過人民票選出來的身上都應該有民主的DNA我對人性充滿了樂觀我相信人類有高尚的心理"},{"start":5043.373,"end":5065.483,"text":"很好我們保持這樣正向的相信的力量下一頁明氣可用啊事實上我認為就算表決會輸但是論述要贏我們更要贏得社會民心這一周連續兩個民調都告訴我們中華亞太精英交流協會的民調"},{"start":5066.744,"end":5095.833,"text":"他的數據是百分之六十一點四的人民是支持行政院提覆議案而六月十七號台灣民意基金會最新的民調也呈現高達五成二的人民是支持行政院提覆議案所以行政院提的覆議案具有強大的民意基礎具有高度的民意支持我認為在民意的加持之下我們會有正面的成果繼續努力下一頁"},{"start":5096.806,"end":5123.709,"text":"但是今天也是一個再論述的機會我要把握時間還原很多的事實真相在野黨說過去八年民進黨國會多數國會改革交白券嗎?過去民進黨在立法院從來沒有排審任何的國會改革法案嗎?這是造謠這是造謠這是嚴重的造謠下一頁"},{"start":5125.823,"end":5132.372,"text":"黃國昌打臉了黃國昌喔黃國昌在6月4號上節目的時候說一套他說"},{"start":5134.517,"end":5162.002,"text":"第九屆司法法治委員會是段宜康但是段宜康就是不排案啊不排案就沒有辦法審查但是事實上黃國昌自己知道他是故意講錯的他早在今年4月1號司法法治委員會審查國會擴權法案的時候他在提案說明的時候他自己就說了2016年3月10號那時的國會司法法治委員會"},{"start":5163.122,"end":5185.265,"text":"開始排審立法院職權行使法誰排審的當時的召委是民進黨的段宜康所以呢黃國昌上節目騙小草說民進黨不排案結果自己在司法法治委員會針對議案進行提案說明的時候從自己的嘴巴說民進黨當時段宜康有排審"},{"start":5186.711,"end":5214.946,"text":"黃國昌打臉自己公然造謠臉不痛臉不腫嗎我在用數字來回應社會當時2016年民進黨排審國會改革法案總共委員會排審了7次朝野共提75個議案而完成委員會的審查有39案這些議事錄都可查所以民進黨負責任的推動國會改革下一頁"},{"start":5215.782,"end":5236.233,"text":"也因為民進黨第九屆負責任的第一次的國會多數我們開始來進行國會的改革經過朝野的合作努力我們完成了立法院組織法第三條要求立法院正副院長要議事中立退出政黨活動當時立法之後修法之後"},{"start":5237.013,"end":5248.459,"text":"蘇嘉祺人、尤錫堃都身體力行我們也非常期待韓國瑜院長也應當遵循立法院組織法第三條來捍衛議事中立"},{"start":5249.434,"end":5272.441,"text":"民進黨主導的國會改革還包括通過了立法院組織法第五條就是現在大家都把觀看國會直播成為民主的日常的這件事情我們不只委員會全程直播連過去都被詬病的協商、黑箱、黑箱協商也都全程直播這是非常難能可貴的國會改革民進黨做到了"},{"start":5275.282,"end":5303.25,"text":"我也謝謝剛剛傅昆奇總召他有說國會直播都看得到審查謝謝傅昆奇肯定了民進黨推動的國會直播完成落實我們的透明公開在國會民進黨的國會改革還包括完成了立法院議事規則61條歡迎所有的公民朋友經過申請可以列席委員會來旁聽列席院會來旁聽所以當我們享受這些國會透明公開的民主日常的時候"},{"start":5304.19,"end":5325.51,"text":"民進黨不居功但是這是過去立法院2016以來努力的國會改革的成果下一頁但確實民進黨在國會改革沒有辦法拿到一百分因為當時的提案有違憲之餘沒有人可以站在憲法的對立面我們重新審視"},{"start":5327.071,"end":5353.633,"text":"也因為欠缺社會的共識我們也非常的自制重新審視所以民進黨國會多數的時候不會因為是多數席次就強行表決強行碾壓所以國會改革確實有未盡之業所以我們這一屆再接再厲下葉但非常遺憾這一次推動的不是改革是擴權"},{"start":5355.234,"end":5363.433,"text":"法案大小眼沒有辦法病案審查現在民進黨法案持續被丟包持續不見天日從來沒有發生過"},{"start":5365.185,"end":5384.835,"text":"城市不正義從委員會黨團協商到韓院長主持的朝野協商對不起 院長 半次協商 半個條文都沒有協商前所未見 沒收的實質討論黑箱橋條文過去反黑箱的黃國昌現在成為搞黑箱的元兇"},{"start":5386.056,"end":5409.244,"text":"沒有透明公開意識不中立違反了意識規則甚至表決不公平一路做票做到底舉手投票是需要可否雙決的韓院長主持的舉手投票從來沒有可否雙決這就是違反意識規則違反主持的中立下一頁"},{"start":5410.714,"end":5431.847,"text":"我再用具體的數字藍白牆推擴權法案黨編自己的審查也是虛硬故事啊剛剛傅昆奇總召說排了好幾次的委員會審查事實上進行條文實質審查只有4月15號那一天我們來看看4月15號條文實質審查的那一天傅昆奇從頭到尾發言60秒他講了177個字"},{"start":5437.995,"end":5459.793,"text":"黃國昌在逐條審查了司法法制委員會的4月15的當天他的發言只有25秒習字如今只講了106個字用常識判斷這樣子的發言時間跟發言的次數是認真在審查法案嗎?黨團協商的時候"},{"start":5461.301,"end":5476.141,"text":"吳宗憲、張維主持的黨團協商全文六十八條指進行的四個條文就因為黃國昌起身提早離席所以黨團協商被打包最後一個朝野協商我再一次要挑戰韓國瑜院長"},{"start":5477.623,"end":5494.115,"text":"立法院三十年來您上任三個月就破了國會三十年來沒有的國會惡例從來沒有任何一個法案沒有經過院長的朝野協商實質審查就進行表決但是發生在韓國瑜院長的手上"},{"start":5495.031,"end":5517.81,"text":"所以這是什麼審查無怪乎親咬們社會的人士說沒有討論不是民主更何況我們在處理國會改革欸何其丟臉這是國會改革嗎下一頁我時間有限後面很多實質內容沒有辦法論述我再一次說就表決前的四次院會民進黨的委員登記發言了2844次"},{"start":5520.732,"end":5543,"text":"二八四四人次但是都被藍白強行表決聽之討論真的可以站上來這個神聖的意識天堂發言的只有73人次換言之97.5%的最終發言又被沒收隊長抱歉時間只有10分鐘我們持續努力謝謝場外的或是線上的青鳥朋友們我們不會放棄努力如果要"},{"start":5549.906,"end":5577.244,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5579.036,"end":5581.098,"text":"第四號,洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":5617.932,"end":5620.678,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請中太院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":5628.627,"end":5655.219,"text":"委員長今天針對覆議案的部分來跟您就質詢先請教一下昨天一份最新的民調台灣民主基金會他所做短短不到一個月520賴政府上任到現在剛好一個月的時間賴總統的聲望重挫了9.8%流失等於是上任不到一個月流失近兩百萬人的支持是不是一個嚴重的警訊"},{"start":5656.107,"end":5664.662,"text":"我們賴著體系一個月就讓台灣有兩百萬的人民失去信心有沒有檢討的必要我今天沒有準備這個內容"},{"start":5666.61,"end":5666.73,"text":"主席"},{"start":5693.876,"end":5695.157,"text":"本席就來針對你的報告事項裡面來說,其實"},{"start":5708.684,"end":5735.917,"text":"我很重視的是說到底你提出來的覆議案的一個程序裡面有沒有摯愛難行之處我先請教你在開宗明義第三頁裡面就講是說民主議事程序除了多數決議決以外亦要尊重跟保護少數少數服從多數多數尊重少數這是民主的一個常規嘛那我再請教在您看過這個立院職權行使法裡面我們到底通過了幾條條文"},{"start":5737.523,"end":5752.022,"text":"我剛剛已經在我們立院職權行使法這邊通過幾條條文幾條條文我沒有唸但每一條條文我可以再唸一次不用 你不用唸一次或者說你既然你會提出來覆議案很負責任提出來嘛"},{"start":5752.563,"end":5775.497,"text":"本席以及我們院長在這邊高達四天完整的院會我們通過表決每一次的表決還有民進黨團反覆要求點名表決、記名表決然後反覆杯葛四天完整的院會我們送到了行政院行政院竟然已經提出了覆議案代表你認為每一條你都看過你也認為說裡面有摯愛難情之處啊我現在只是很簡單的請教通過幾條條文"},{"start":5777.53,"end":5797.951,"text":"委員非常抱歉44條條文通過44條條文裡面有幾條是民進黨黨團的版本我重視的是文字不是數字很好每一條的文字我都會看每一條的文字就跟你討論文字總共加起來那是算數問題院長來沒有問題院長你講說少數要保護尊重少數請教立法院少數是誰"},{"start":5799.008,"end":5825.958,"text":"少數是民眾黨跟民進黨民眾黨民進黨太好了來我們來看一下那個條文裡面版本有沒有保護跟尊重民眾黨跟民進黨來請看15支4條是按照國民黨團跟民眾黨團所提出來版本通過的所以這算不算是已經結合多數我們看到17條是國民黨民眾黨跟民進黨的版本通過的我更印象深刻第17條的時候"},{"start":5827.961,"end":5829.101,"text":"我以為你誤會我的意思了"},{"start":5847.446,"end":5868.345,"text":"不是,你先看我們舊法條論法條這都是刪讀通過後的版本我們現在講舊法條論法條因為你在第三頁開宗明義講說大院沒有尊重沒有保護少數貴院在委員會協商沒有實質的審議跟討厭所以我們現在在講啊"},{"start":5869.059,"end":5880.627,"text":"我要看的是條文裡面總共通過44條,44條裡面有哪幾條是民進黨的版本?跟委員說明,是形成這個條文的過程沒有經過遵從條數。對,我說的內容是形成這個條文的過程沒有經過遵從條數。"},{"start":5892.374,"end":5893.455,"text":"委員長,我覺得一個行政院長那麼高的高度"},{"start":5913.085,"end":5927.604,"text":"會在公開的報告書上面指責說貴院並沒有實質的審議跟討論這是很嚴重的事情我也非常不願意所以我們才會講嘛當條文通過之後到底哪一些條文是沒有我給你一個數字喔"},{"start":5929.226,"end":5943.538,"text":"44條裡面總共有12條實質修正是通過民進黨團的版本而裡面有4條是3個黨團共同修正動議的版本總共4條真正獨立只有國民黨團的版本通過的只有一條"},{"start":5945.28,"end":5960.456,"text":"換言之在這一次的修法的時候總共44條裡面真正國民黨團表決通過國民黨團動議版本只有一條有12條是民進黨團的版本這怎麼沒有尊重少數呢?"},{"start":5960.976,"end":5969.641,"text":"委員你繼續劃錯我的狀態我們的對話就會非常的困難院長 本席現在在質詢你不用反質詢 院長本席現在是就事論事就條文論條文告訴你為什麼你提出來的意見其實是跟事實不相符的院長 因為你沒有針對本席的問題來回答問題嘛來 院長 再來"},{"start":5986.93,"end":5987.23,"text":"委員應該知道"},{"start":6012.011,"end":6012.471,"text":"你沒有辦法回答問題"},{"start":6040.467,"end":6050.702,"text":"也沒有官員想要上來就假因為官員也不知道是誰主持是不是我第一次看到行政院長那麼孤立然後沒有官員要上來就假是不是官員也不知道公聽會是誰主持"},{"start":6051.67,"end":6078.225,"text":"因為你的問題不是官員能回答的啊我的問題不是官員可以回答官員沒有參加公聽會即便是那官員是蔡英文政府時代的官員但是至少我們現在法務部長至少我們現在相關部會首長也都應該了解啊不然你怎麼會提出復議案呢所以現在行政院院長就直接用他的反應來告訴我們其實你提出復議案但是你沒有了解中間的審議過程但你直接就講本席直接告訴你"},{"start":6080.507,"end":6106.121,"text":"來公聽會一場吳宗憲委員主持兩場民進黨的召委鍾嘉斌委員主持所以換言之這些公聽會不也是經過國民黨民進黨兩黨的委員共同來協助來增訂修法的過程嗎?這樣子到底哪裡有不尊重少數以及不保護少數?來您剛剛沒有回答我的問題也不用再回答再來我請教"},{"start":6107.776,"end":6136.063,"text":"你第五點特別有講到人事同意權行使恐導致摯愛難行因為現在修法通過之後我們要求是期限審議不少於一個月所以你認為你們的意見是說你認為如果說沒有限制一個什麼時候一定要審理的話有可能會無限期延長是這個意思嗎有這種疑慮有這個疑慮那我請教現行法令有哪一條法令人事同意權是有限制期限的"},{"start":6136.854,"end":6164.412,"text":"所以現行法律是都沒有這種期限的限制那為什麼獨獨這一次要不得少於一個月就是因為過去有委員認為是說人事同意權相對來講非常的重要所以說希望有一個期限來做審議但是沒有無限延長啊可是您現在你們的講法是現行的法律都至愛難行喔所以換言之你們現在提出來覆議的講法是連現行的法律都要推翻是這個意思嗎法律上故意舉一個"},{"start":6168.434,"end":6180.142,"text":"本席特別跟您請教我記得兩個禮拜以前我們在這邊總質詢會提出來5月31號的時候我說NCC的委員人事同意有沒有經過您您當時怎麼回答"},{"start":6180.933,"end":6182.293,"text":"我處理覆議案的事情之後我們下禮拜"},{"start":6208.655,"end":6233.684,"text":"最短時間你那時候講是說你總執行結束之後我說要不要兩個禮拜你說可能不用最短時間內提出新的NCC委員名單但到目前為止我不知道你是不是改口了或是說你是認為這四位NCC那如果說不是的話你怎麼會認為說現在人是在立法院呢照理講你就應該要行政院趕快再提出名單否則這不就才是真正拖延人事同意權審查權嗎你沒有送進來"},{"start":6237.058,"end":6254.282,"text":"所以,你講的第五點所謂的無限期延長根本也不是理由因為現行的法例就沒有任何一個人事同意權是有限定期限的這就是現行法令的規定這也就是行政部門應該要尊重立法部門的部分謝謝"},{"start":6266.638,"end":6272.248,"text":"謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員時間的關係謝謝洪孟凱委員的諮詢也謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第五號張祺凱委員諮詢"},{"start":6327.18,"end":6344.326,"text":"謝謝主席請左院長麻煩再請左院長備選黨委員好左院長你好我剛才聽你的報告"},{"start":6346.837,"end":6359.083,"text":"我覺得你跟民進黨現在是不是恐懼改革,選擇失意恐懼改革,選擇失意今天是賴清德總統上任剛剛滿一個月,他現在就在開記者會我們來喚醒賴清德總統跟你的記憶你剛才說了,這個質詢是質詢總統違憲"},{"start":6376.633,"end":6376.993,"text":"賴清德總統"},{"start":6394.997,"end":6411.898,"text":"中通商業型電視辯論會他這個是對著全國的民眾對著每一個國人講的話他怎麼說?他說我也要利用這個機會、這個時間澄清一下剛剛侯市長說我不願意到立法院接受國情諮詢"},{"start":6413.716,"end":6441.211,"text":"這是錯的這是假信息因為不管是根據憲法或者根據立法院職權行使法總統都有義務應立院要求到國會去進行國情報告接受立法委員的國情諮詢但是並不是一對一的諮詢我一字不漏是,沒錯啊,很正確那總統跟他情形徹徹不關係"},{"start":6443.755,"end":6464.253,"text":"憲法,不管是立法院職權行使法,它都要來在判議啊。那為什麼你現在說,反正我們提出來你說是違憲。憲法正規二條文第四條,第三項的規定,立法院於每年集會時得得聽取總統國情報告,可以。你沒有跟上進度耶,院長。"},{"start":6465.723,"end":6479.949,"text":"那總統講的是清清楚楚不管是憲法、立法院職權行使法他都有義務喔!他有義務來立法院接受國情報告之外還要接受立法院的國情職權那個唯一一個我今年來沒有跟上進度是什麼地方?"},{"start":6481.261,"end":6507.526,"text":"這是他講他的義務而且依法他講說什麼唯一的不是要一對一立法院現在通過了依序就是各個政黨質詢阿像民政黨八個人不是一對一喔執行完以後看他要不要打看總統要不要打國民黨五十二個立法委員執行完以後他要不要打而且我們在協商都講過阿充分尊重總統的看法我們坐下來好好協商"},{"start":6508.837,"end":6526.534,"text":"我告訴你,這個是選舉前,所以要來立法院報告,選後提附議案,拒絕被選這項,選情三明海寫,選六個雜名拍寫這個是賴清德上任以後自打嘴巴的第一個跳票喔,我提醒,提醒卓院長"},{"start":6527.918,"end":6545.853,"text":"如果那總統是跳票的總統他民調還會繼續掉一個月已經掉了10%了如果他是個跳票的總統說話沒算話民調還會繼續掉來我再提醒一下我們看下一張我希望憲法的規定委員要講清楚才在這邊發言啦看清楚憲法的規定跟執行行使法"},{"start":6554.54,"end":6559.924,"text":"你還記得民主人員嗎?你還記得他們嗎?我對他們的尊敬絕對比委員不會少今年一過剛剛離開我們的市民的肉依還有新蓋縣的還有民進黨的一集的黨主席江澎堅"},{"start":6578.407,"end":6584.53,"text":"國安改革是讓國會更有效率、立法品質更高、大家更清廉,這才是國會改革來,我們來看什麼叫做國會改革,什麼叫做民進黨有的良心,我們來學習一下民進黨的良心"},{"start":6607.708,"end":6629.817,"text":"你們的理論大師啊,林守水怎麼說?他說國會改革啊,已經等三十年的好事。蘇煥智怎麼說?國會改革通過了台灣民主的里程碑。游盈隆啊,游盈隆其實做民調時都對你算不錯的。游盈隆怎麼說?藐視國會罪啊,57%是贊成的。民進黨輸掉了民調,也輸掉了民心。"},{"start":6634.215,"end":6643.68,"text":"今天最新民調,公務員藐視國會稅還往上升高一點點,57.5另外還有一個人,這人很重要,對他來說很重要,你看看這人怎麼說這個話,對你來講很重要他說人性都不喜歡被監督,可是有監督才會有進步結果民進黨現在反監督"},{"start":6663.24,"end":6679.106,"text":"反民主這什麼人說話我給你看好不好來我給你看這是你大師兄的師父嘛你師父你會記得啊人需要監督監督要合法合憲合法合情合法合憲可是你看"},{"start":6682.113,"end":6709.842,"text":"第一是全盤的推翻國會改革,然後國會前面的過去黨國時代的親自監督還造謠推翻的國會改革跟改革好,摸著良心講話啦,說實在,我知道你是理性的好,這次還有一個很重要的點這次你們反改革,反國會改革是民進黨自己打臉自己的民進黨民進黨這些人都曾經要求過國會改革"},{"start":6711.365,"end":6735.109,"text":"從早期民國八十二年,沈富雄提版本的時候,阿扁亞總統、戈武烈叔夫、謝長廷、戈武大學在這裡的老柯,都是共同提案人。到了一百零一年,林佳龍提國會改革方案的時候,立法院職權行使法右下角那幾個人,黃偉哲、職權行使法副院長鄭麗金,"},{"start":6740.017,"end":6746.604,"text":"陳廷飛,你今年現在在幹什麼?連蔡英文在總統大選的時候105年提了很多國會改革的方案,你們有做嗎?"},{"start":6761.929,"end":6766.97,"text":"國會改革是不是沒有人會反對國會改革是不是沒有人會反對國會改革的初心把它找回來沒有人反對國會改革啊"},{"start":6785.992,"end":6813.431,"text":"這個引起很大的爭議權,就是你剛剛講的。他們的主張跟現在不一樣,這個才是重點。不是國會改革是個字。不要讓某子一蓋,整個社會就跟著這樣走,這樣是不對的。立法院沒有實質審查嗎?我告訴你,民進黨現在是怎麼樣?你贏了你不能買,你知道嗎?民進黨在公投法以前,政府惡毒,那時候是國民黨的立委不在的,還在裡面的。前瞻預算計畫八千八百億,"},{"start":6815.053,"end":6834.55,"text":"那陣的經濟委員會召集委員民進黨的邱毅英直接就包裹就表決啦你們那時候有任何有吭聲嗎?我們再看下一張你說這次沒有實質的審查一場專報,剛才林副跟你講一場專報兩場委員會討論三場公聽會,裡面有兩場那剛剛吳思堯委員的講法你也應該聽清楚啊吳思堯委員講得很清楚啊,大家都應該聽清楚啊剛才聶小宇跟你講"},{"start":6843.871,"end":6855.227,"text":"行政院要接受監督你現在是太上行政院耶你是俄華對不對誰是太上行政院你看看我是太上行政院"},{"start":6857.711,"end":6871.581,"text":"立法院是監督制衡,幫人民監督制衡行政院,結果你現在子酸道士,你連我們的程序都管耶!你親蒙打喔!你如果自愛來行,你是學法的,自愛來行是針對內容對不對?所以剛才說過了嘛,你有沒有自拔嘴巴,來,我們跳到最後兩章,其實啦,"},{"start":6886.018,"end":6895.625,"text":"一定要講,其實人民的要求很卑微,就是要真相嘛你貴庭對你就是民進黨一黨獨大,有多少案子,案無天日"},{"start":6898.176,"end":6910.486,"text":"行政院也只是要求重新審視騰訊的延遲延遲而已這次為什麼要國會改革?這次為什麼要國會改革?這個要官員的維持這部分有監察院來處理若判罪的話有司法、有司法檢調機關來處理所以國會要改革,這個民進黨欸我跟你講台灣人民最正經管他知道你行政權不希望陽光射進來把立案掀開"},{"start":6926.26,"end":6927.68,"text":"我們支持國會改革,國會改革要有效率,要有立法品質"},{"start":6956.948,"end":6967.517,"text":"謝謝張啟凱委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第六號鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":6988.889,"end":7011.005,"text":"主席在質詢開始之前請求院長來落實執行立法院職權行使法第24條及第25條我在這裡唸給院長聽第24條規定職權之提出以說明其執行之主旨為限我待會會指明我的執行主旨如果我講的內容超過了這個規定主席要制止我,可以嗎?"},{"start":7012.006,"end":7040.709,"text":"另外二十五條規定,質詢的答覆不得已超出質詢的範圍之外,如果待會行政院的官員答覆超出我質詢的範圍之外,也要請主席制止。可以嗎?好,謝謝。好,那麼就有請我們院長,還有法務部正部長。麻煩再請左院長備詢,也請法務部備詢。那請問政務委員可以上台嗎?可以。可以嗎?"},{"start":7041.716,"end":7052.414,"text":"院長我不清楚因為他坐在前面因為憲法第57條是說部會首長"},{"start":7054.164,"end":7068.451,"text":"今天是邀請行政院院長列席說明是依據立法院職權行使法第33條之規定,需由院長說明。委員如果不需要部會首長補充說明,就請相關部會首長不要回答。答案可就近,提供院長資料。"},{"start":7079.724,"end":7081.525,"text":"國會濫權不能冒充國會改革這是我質詢的主旨"},{"start":7110.396,"end":7135.527,"text":"請教卓文哲院長您應該知道我是支持行政院覆議的,是不是?謝謝委員好,但是我很慶幸有行政院來提出覆議原因呢是在於我覺得立法院送出了一個身為立法委員我認為制定的很差的法律但是我們沒有其他的方法只有透過行政院提出覆議支持他成功後我們才有能力去改變這個法律您同意嗎?"},{"start":7136.447,"end":7137.988,"text":"我希望我能夠轉首先請教一下"},{"start":7166.465,"end":7182.083,"text":"美國的國會議員可以質詢官員嗎?美國的官員嗎?聯邦政府的官員嗎?在國會裡面也有聽證的制度等等但是聽證的制度不是質詢對不對?那請問英國的內閣制有在野黨質詢內閣的嗎?"},{"start":7186.271,"end":7207.567,"text":"是,因為他們是內閣制,所以質詢的閣議員本身也是國會議員,地位是平等的。所以很遺憾,為什麼你們在這裡我要質詢你,我看到前面的質詢,這不是一個對等的關係。根據憲法第57條,行政院依索列規定向立法院負責,包括立法委員可以質詢行政院長跟部會首長,是不是這樣?"},{"start":7208.388,"end":7233.257,"text":"但是我們第七十五條規定,立法院不得兼任官吏,所以各位不是立法委員,我們的地位上就是不一樣,您同意嗎?這個憲法的設計是如此是的,那在這樣的制度設計下,剛剛有一位副總召,他提說呢,他在刪除的發言我唯一查得到,他對今天的法律的發言呢,就在刑法一百條意圖判斷都已經取消了,民進黨還用意圖犯來辦我請問一下院長或部長,什麼是意圖犯?"},{"start":7235.592,"end":7263.74,"text":"意圖犯就是內心想的都還沒有認為刑處於外那請問你知道副總召當時違反政交法違反衛照文書他是意圖沒有著手還是他的什麼犯刑被法院判刑下一頁他是不是意圖犯他是意圖炒股後找人頭家買賣他是因為找人頭家買賣被判刑是不是這樣子所以不是因為意圖的思想而是因為他實際的這樣的炒股行為您了解嗎"},{"start":7266.118,"end":7292.618,"text":"你可能不便回答,那我來告訴你齁這是他的判決書啦那我們要關心的就是說我們今天送出一個藐視國會請問藐視跟意圖它是不是有點類似的一種抽象的概念院長你覺得勒?藐視跟意圖要從主觀去判定別人這個應該有相當上的一個認定好,那我就問你啦現在這三種手勢哪一個算是藐視?"},{"start":7297.895,"end":7322.075,"text":"中間那個是可愛啊您等於說中間是可愛但是我也覺得派大星蠻可愛的但是我就要說的說遇到法律用詞用這樣藐視一種主觀判斷的方式人民很無所適從所以呢就是今天我們認為這部法律作為立法委員我覺得很遺憾的違反了法律民切訊的原則您同意嗎?是的"},{"start":7322.455,"end":7323.716,"text":"所以我才會提出這樣的問題"},{"start":7339.619,"end":7362.734,"text":"但是我兩場主持的時候前一場公聽會國民黨的蔡昭偉他是上午公聽會下午就要主條討論這是跟我們立法院職權行使法是有所相違啊而我主持的那兩場公聽會是隔週之後那時候民進黨送的黨團版還在院會交付到委員會的復議期間"},{"start":7364.52,"end":7379.25,"text":"我用附件的方式放在那個公聽會交由公聽會來討論您需要清楚的說明我主持兩場公聽會主要的是討論民進黨黨團的版本但是他後來在委員會被封殺的這你也了解嗎"},{"start":7380.151,"end":7399.611,"text":"我知道這個過程,但是討論的內容我當然不是很清楚。好,那我就要說你討論的內容。討論內容有在一檔主張,討論了一千五百分鐘。我們告訴我們行政院,我主持的時候是五次被強行表決散會,因為我要進入主條的時候,國民黨要人數優勢,將我們要討論的就散會掉了。"},{"start":7402.754,"end":7418.976,"text":"所以待會羅志祥委員說他說充分討論其實羅委員也在司法委員會根本沒有討論至少就民進黨的版本是無從討論那你知道國民黨的版本怎麼討論嗎我應該認為或許他討論得更少好來我們看一下"},{"start":7420.356,"end":7442.353,"text":"我們是完全沒有機會討論,他們的討論是這樣子,總共有兩個提案委員,副崑崎委員跟黃國燦委員,他們在討論到第二條的時候,他講的最多,他講開議日的決定。問他我們職員行使法民眾黨團版本的人事公聽、人事權、同意權的公聽會,他說沒有,他們要補充。問到了聽證調閱權的時候,他說"},{"start":7445.031,"end":7465.945,"text":"立法委員講得很清楚了,然後最後沒有進入到後來修好完成的政務院長的選舉辦法,他說這一條很基本。問到我們政務院長的選舉辦法,他也講很多,簡單講對於今天所談的標的立法院職權行使法跟刑法,幾乎黃總召是完全沒有發言。所以你認為這樣的討論充分嗎?"},{"start":7469.079,"end":7489.528,"text":"委員在現場有臨場的感覺,我想過去的立法院的討論應該比這個呈現出來的樣子應該是更有它實質的內容才對啊。但是黃總召在委員會的時候不討論,他在我們三二讀的時候,我們去登記主條發言的時候,他不但沒有登記發言,他開直播,請大家看他俊俏的臉龐。"},{"start":7491.428,"end":7508.684,"text":"他現在要求要電視辯論我真的不曉得為什麼立法院自己在審法案的時候不發言然後呢表決的時候之前的主條他也不登記就開直播到底是要討論還是不討論我不清楚我們來看一下過去接下來如果委員提到現在民進黨的提案是他"},{"start":7509.901,"end":7523.808,"text":"國民黨他把民黨主張的國會改革他拿出來你們三十年要改革的聽證調查國眾黨幫你做到了好我為了待會兒羅委員會問所以我就先幫你做一個提示來往下看齁"},{"start":7526.127,"end":7544.858,"text":"這個就是2016年民黨黨團的版本這是羅志強委員的版本抄的一模一樣我們有2024年的最新版本他不抄,他抄八年前的版本但是你要看到他這邊有什麼?有律師喔有律師或是我們陪同出席喔他的版本是支持這個的您知道他的版本後來怎麼處理嗎?往下看不予爭定啊"},{"start":7548.622,"end":7567.718,"text":"國民黨整個把他放生啊羅志強抄2016年民進黨黨團版本到了院會二讀的時候國民黨決定全部不以爭定跳過那請問到了三讀的時候國眾版的版本變成什麼?五十九條之四這邊啊律師的陪同要經過主席同意啊"},{"start":7568.584,"end":7597.184,"text":"所以院長因為您在行政院我們是當事人我們進行中我要說明的待會委員如果提到這個部分的時候請你要很清楚知道實際的情況是什麼不要讓說謊的人變成在罵人造謠來我們進去看超多超不完整羅志陽版本也是一樣他這邊寫啊保命的U寫得清清楚楚啊一樣國民黨把他放生不以爭定然後呢後面呢裡面寫什麼幕僚人員離職的保護規定通通拿掉"},{"start":7598.24,"end":7604.44,"text":"民進黨重算是八年前的版本都比現在國中版的來得周延來得完整您覺得如何?"},{"start":7606.721,"end":7611.285,"text":"這條文出現兩個很重要的關鍵叫宣誓請問部長你知道我們中華民國的法律有出現宣誓在哪裡嗎?是不是宣誓條例?"},{"start":7632.796,"end":7662.285,"text":"宣誓條例有出言宣誓這兩個字請問院長宣誓條例是做什麼用途的?官員總統對就職的受宣誓效忠的但是呢我們目前啊所看到的立法院職權行使法當中他的五四條之一的第三項他說呢詢問前在調查中令旗宣誓請問部長這個令旗宣誓中華民國的法律沒有這個欸是按著聖經嗎?是美國的好萊塢店按著聖經宣誓嗎?請問部長這個宣誓什麼意思?"},{"start":7663.823,"end":7683.473,"text":"是不是拒絕的意思應該是拒絕應該是拒絕嘛表示我講的都是真的嘛但是連他們自己的版本當中呢有的調查的時候有告訴他你要拒絕但他用宣誓寫錯了後面聽證的時候他又沒有告訴他沒有令其拒絕的誓言如果有虛會不實要罰嗎部長要罰嗎"},{"start":7685.851,"end":7687.672,"text":"接下來我們請登記第七號羅志強委員發言"},{"start":7727.025,"end":7727.526,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":7746.087,"end":7772.094,"text":"副委員好院長我剛剛非常認真在底下把前面所有的委員的這個這個詢答跟你的詢答都聽了一遍我先要感謝首先我要謝謝張祺凱委員你澄清了今天行政院復議的第一個假消息就是說這個總統到立法院聽取就做國情報告並進行問答是違憲的"},{"start":7774.241,"end":7797.393,"text":"他引用了賴清德的說法,賴清德的說法是什麼?按照憲法,總統不只要到立法院做國情報告而且要接受質詢,他的詞彙叫質詢哦坦白講我也不認為是質詢啊,就是問答所以謝謝張祺凱直接用賴清德的話打領了行政院我要謝謝侯孟凱"},{"start":7799.073,"end":7820.961,"text":"在行政院的覆議裡面跟我講說沒有討論討論有沒有確實有點主觀感受當然有一個我們在野黨三場公聽會一場專報兩次委員會審查五場朝野協商加上四天的表決審查你可以說沒有討論因為你有主觀感受"},{"start":7821.857,"end":7842.397,"text":"但是比較起邱毅英前瞻預算三分鐘輾壓沒有討論沒有表決甚至沒收在場的異議卓院長當桌沒看到什麼叫有沒有討論你說了算我要謝謝黃國昌官員說謊抱歉豈是懷疑所能定罪"},{"start":7843.462,"end":7861.33,"text":"公然發假消息嘛!官員說謊要成罪要經過檢察官要經過法官做事實認定沒有懷疑就能成罪啦!法學素養都不夠提出一個什麼爛的一個復議案我要謝謝傅昆奇今天已經告訴大家了"},{"start":7862.435,"end":7890.105,"text":"按照人事同意審查舊法的規定就沒有設期限照你的說法叫違憲新法只不過是加了所謂的一個月的審查期他並沒有訂定所謂的無期限你可以造謠說新法叫做無期限那舊法也被你講是違憲啊經過這些的一個詢答的交鋒我跟大家講 院長"},{"start":7891.65,"end":7910.71,"text":"你前面講過的我就不再重複了我先做點歸納但是我接下來要問院長您當過行政院長當過立法院長對不對沒有這次的覆議案你說關於執行權聽證權的行使有侵害人權之餘嗎這是你們的一個覆議的理由嗎對不對沒錯吧謝謝你點頭"},{"start":7914.505,"end":7935.335,"text":"所以我有些案例來比較一下民進黨在行政部門怎麼來去對人權的態度是什麼這個案子跟我接下來問的立法院聽證調查有關希望你不要又跟我講一句說這不在覆議案的範圍之內來迴避問答希望啦我想請教您根據警政署的統計"},{"start":7937.028,"end":7956.195,"text":"明強政府任內從2016年到2020年1月30號根據涉違法第63條第一項第五款也就是散佈謠言足以影響公共安寧者警察機關共移送多少案件你一定不會知道啦我不會為難你告訴你680件680件放心啦我說過後面有關啦"},{"start":7963.436,"end":7979.766,"text":"請問院長680件有多少件被法院裁罰多少件不裁罰你一定不知道我直接告訴你只有2乘3150件裁罰7乘7530件不裁罰國內改革法案生效了沒有請問院長"},{"start":7981.363,"end":7993.858,"text":"這一波的修法生效了沒有?所以我們在提出復議啊對 還沒嘛 對不對所以引起目前沒有任何民眾按照所謂聽證調查來這邊請求協助調查或出席聽證嘛 沒有嘛"},{"start":7996.581,"end":7997.061,"text":"民政黨政府就是恐懼的總和"},{"start":8022.541,"end":8032.368,"text":"680個案子有500個案子法院不裁罰你明記哪一句話說了算把人民用色違法來移送你就是一個恐懼的政府接下來我要跟你講我想請問齁這個國會改革還沒生效"},{"start":8037.796,"end":8063.582,"text":"所以也沒有人被要求協助調查跟隨的來出席聽證目前還沒有案例但是在你偉大的名將執政之下又五百萬民眾遭到行政院跟政府來去濫權的徵訊、偵辦、問話被司法權裁定為不法請問這算不算你偉大的院長你口中的侵犯人權呢?"},{"start":8064.684,"end":8064.944,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8081.004,"end":8106.308,"text":"今天說謊官員按照這次的刑法修訂是誰來審判說謊官員的罪責你一直說說謊官員那到底誰是說謊官員我問一下誰來判嘛不是你判不是我判嗎法院判嗎一個委員提案又是你說的司法救濟謝謝卓榮潘你打理了卓榮潘你跟我講司法救濟我告訴你現在就是司法審判第二個聽證調查來沒關係下一題了不用緊張"},{"start":8110.87,"end":8139.051,"text":"聽證調查你講司法救濟嘛聽證調查在多重門檻之下到最後如果人民不服一樣是行政法院救濟所以一樣有司法救濟謝謝左翁派你打臉自己但是我要跟你講下一個齁即便是謠言也要受到言論自由的保護所以社委法第六十三條第一項第五款散佈謠言的處罰要把它刪掉啊院長你認不認同這樣的修法理由"},{"start":8140.626,"end":8140.966,"text":"所以你不認同嗎?"},{"start":8151.297,"end":8170.671,"text":"三個字結束嘛!你認同三部謠言嗎?拜託!我豈敢認同三部謠言!但是不好意思啊!大家停!2013年民進黨蕭美琴現在的副總統、潘旺安現在的秘書長、林佳榮現在的部長、管碧玲現在的主委、李基麗的監察院秘書長、陳其邁的市長、黃偉哲市長提案刪除"},{"start":8174.554,"end":8193.692,"text":"所謂的社委法六十三條一項五款它的立法理由就是即使是謠言亦應收到言論自由之保護你直接一刀砍死所有同黨同志院長這樣不好吧都是他們過去犯蠢嗎這些你的過去做在台上隔緣犯蠢嗎"},{"start":8195.393,"end":8209.789,"text":"沒有通過啊很好啊來我要告訴你下一個我要問你沒有我告訴你我告訴你有沒有通過有沒有通過至少剛剛從你的嘴巴說出來這些人犯蠢還提案呢我要跟你講我下一個要問你別緊張我下一個問你好"},{"start":8212.281,"end":8241.727,"text":"民進黨這樣提案的原因很簡單啦他就是不滿政府查人民水表啦才會這樣提案嘛所以他覺得說政府用涉違法前置人民的言論自由不甘才提案修法廢除涉違法六三一項五款嘛那我想請問你齁照這種邏輯齁按涉違法六三一項五款齁來去所謂的來去偵辦人民移送的案件齁你覺得是馬政府多還是蔡政府多請部長說明一下來部長"},{"start":8243.704,"end":8271.085,"text":"這部分我沒有統計的一個資料我跟警政署所知啦警政署說他沒有一百零四年以前的資料啦所以但是瘋傳沒有介入過新聞因為我在總務府當過副秘書長我也略有所知按照警政署司法院監察院查核資料看到的資料2011年到2015年因為前面我也沒有五年資料違反社會法六十三條的移送件數你知道是移送多少件嗎"},{"start":8272.076,"end":8299.053,"text":"我直接告訴你三十二件平均六點四件你要去扯別的東西不在你覆議範圍內來沒關係齁按照蔡政府齁蔡政府二零一四年二零一六到二零二三年這八年六百七十三件平均八十四點一件來我要告訴你沒關係啊我要就是回歸你覆議案啊"},{"start":8300.069,"end":8318.433,"text":"今天只要我們蘇貞昌院長對信公豬肉不爽就去信公豬肉就被查水表我們的陳建仁院長說這新北的謝先生買到黑心的綠色雞蛋他覺得是造謠馬上警察八小時傳人半夜徵訊"},{"start":8320.435,"end":8325.9,"text":"這樣的一個所謂爛拳在你眼中不是爛拳來我跟你講國會改革聽證調查的四大門檻第一道門檻來來來第一道門檻"},{"start":8336.001,"end":8355.551,"text":"第一道門檻有所謂拒絕證言權因為時間不夠第二道門檻依依三位立委決議才能發動聽證調查第三道門檻依依三位立委決議才能夠處罰第四道門檻有司法究竟立法院這麼嚴謹門檻叫做侵犯人權你民進黨查稅表政府叫做什麼無法無天政府啊"},{"start":8359.218,"end":8361.823,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的備詢。報議會現在我們休息十分鐘。"},{"start":9003.476,"end":9008.132,"text":"報告全院委員會 我們現在繼續開會 接下來我們請李博義委員發言"},{"start":9033.752,"end":9036.795,"text":"在上任一個月內對立法院提出的這個立法院職權行使法馬上"},{"start":9059.578,"end":9086.992,"text":"來提出覆議案對一個新任的行政院長來講這是一個非常大的挑戰但是我支持你提出支持你的覆議案謝謝委員因為這是一部假改革之名事實上他是在擴權的立法院職權行使法說改革哪一個民眾不要但是是擴權他擴權到什麼程度他擴權到"},{"start":9088.444,"end":9090.265,"text":"藍、白正在做一件事情他透過這一次立法院職權行使法的修法"},{"start":9117.188,"end":9144.682,"text":"其實接下來他還在做現在院會還在發生委員會還在開才化法立法院還在做什麼事情他要提案他要提案來做花東三法來侵犯行政權對於預算的支配立法院在做這樣的法案所以如果覆議案不過"},{"start":9146.127,"end":9165.257,"text":"行政院當然我們知道我們還可以提起釋憲當然其實立法院對於這個新任的行政院長黨敢提出復議立法院也可能提出不信任案如果立法院提出但是院長這不會發生吶"},{"start":9166.872,"end":9171.595,"text":"藍加白好不容易多數了他們就是要藉由這樣剛剛黃國昌自己講出來了我也聽得笑出來他說其實不可以把官員"},{"start":9196.991,"end":9200.352,"text":"立法院的藍加白多數才是檢察官"},{"start":9226.107,"end":9227.507,"text":"我認為這不是挑戰"},{"start":9257.31,"end":9279.72,"text":"針對這個立法院的職權行使法我們列舉很多我要講的一句話與其說我是為了政府人員在備詢時候受到一些不應該有的態度的待遇之外與其說這個我更重視的是每一個國人部隊法人團體社會上利害關係的人有一天站在這裡"},{"start":9280.834,"end":9297.344,"text":"面對這樣的質詢面對這樣的詢問他要心理上要產生多大的心理壓力所以我是為每一個國人提出這個覆議院長我支持你好像知道我要問什麼來請內政部劉士凡部長麻煩請內政部說明時間稍微暫停一下時間都沒有暫停來部長"},{"start":9310.545,"end":9334.345,"text":"內政委員會在你還沒有就任的時候我們就成立了數位身份證調查小組那數位身份證調查小組內政部也提供了相關的這些資料到立法院的辦公室供我們來調閱那我們每一個調查的委員也都進去看了依照過去立法院職權行使法的第五十條之一"},{"start":9335.293,"end":9350.864,"text":"其實委員在看完之後有保密的義務但是在委員會正式調查報告出來之前有保密的義務很奇怪為什麼前天國民黨召開記者會說這個委員會的內容"},{"start":9353.506,"end":9371.504,"text":"資料內容部分被塗黑,部長你可以說明一下什麼事情嗎?是,謝謝委員的關切,數位身份證調閱小組確實是有召開兩次會議,第一次是5月2號,第二次是5月29,在第一次召開會議的時候呢,召委高金素梅所主持全員出席,會中主席有才事,"},{"start":9372.085,"end":9399.732,"text":"有關招標文件跟合約書涉及商業機密部分可以塗黑遮蔽所以事實上當時的包括我們的內政部或者是公共工程委員會或是中印公司呢他們都有按照委員的要求提供這些卷宗那在第二次委員會在繼續要往前提供補充提供的時候呢我們有發現到說按照我們的資訊公開法或者是個資法呢或者是立法委員的職權行使法有一部分呢確實是設計了在"},{"start":9401.613,"end":9405.835,"text":"市長,我在這邊跟你剖析他為什麼啦他其實目的就是要讓人民覺得說哇,這個吊躍委員會原來還可以塗黑其實這就是機密"},{"start":9428.93,"end":9431.772,"text":"麻煩請國防部長說明在這個上台的過程部長如果這涉及到因為這個數位身份證它是由"},{"start":9457.625,"end":9460.167,"text":"同樣的問題我要問國防部長我們現在國家的政策進行"},{"start":9484.195,"end":9497.97,"text":"包含潛艦國造、國艦國造甚至包含海巡很多船艦都國造潛艦國造也有人賴總統主張一次造七艘艦也有人主張不要一次造七艘艦"},{"start":9499.467,"end":9525.217,"text":"萬一在國防外交委員會我們認為照七艘國艦跟照一艘國艦內容包含預算的編列包含這些秘密會議裡面必須要由這個國防外交委員會的主席來認定你有沒有提供秘密資料或者是你有沒有如立法院的職權來提供資料的話主席是可以判定你藐視國會"},{"start":9527.626,"end":9547.57,"text":"跟委員報告,根據大法官釋字461號,他有一個很明確的解釋文,他就說,詢問的內容涉及重要國防機密者,則免於答覆。這是大法官的意見。那現在因為《立法院職權行使法》的第五條第二項,他拒絕答覆,他要並經這個主席的"},{"start":9551.892,"end":9554.954,"text":"還有更嚴重的還在後面第59條很多配合國家政策在乘坐我們的不管是軍艦也好巡邏艦也好的廠商"},{"start":9579.346,"end":9608.961,"text":"他可能有評選的過程如果有落選的廠商去找委員說這個有問題把他當作弊案來查未來這些曾做的廠商甚至公共工程沒有得標或得標的廠商都有可能站在立法院接受立委的這個調查之外還有可能有罰款這就是為什麼我要支持行政院復議案的原因還有一個更重要的原因台積電現在因為受到AI的鼓舞"},{"start":9609.417,"end":9626.549,"text":"高雄也設廠在德國、在日本政府都拿出大筆的經費來補助台積電的設廠台灣能做什麼?台灣可以做的是周邊的公共建設包含我的選區左營男子捷運直線鐵路高架化男子交流道"},{"start":9627.86,"end":9653.162,"text":"這些都已經進行可行性評估以及正在進行相關的計畫當中都有可能受到現在的財化法以及未來的花東山法嚴重侵害行政院要對於國家布局的能力所以在這裡侵犯到排擠到選區預算的這些法令我主張支持行政院提出覆議案"},{"start":9656.921,"end":9683.19,"text":"謝謝李博毅委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的說明。我們接下來請登記第9號,王洪威委員發言。好,謝謝主席,請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長說明。"},{"start":9690.285,"end":9713.276,"text":"黃委員好好 院長好在我們整個的國會改革法案提出之後啊真的充滿了太多的錯假消息我記得那時候總諮詢我就告訴你欸 剛才諮詢就有錯假消息然後我現在又要告訴你剛才李博弈委員又有錯假消息因為剛才他特別提到的就說欸 我們有很多國防外交上面的機密"},{"start":9714.096,"end":9732.482,"text":"如果都可以這樣子調查權,然後我們的公務人員,比如說我們國防部人員,他們都要這樣子一五一十地回答,這不是都適合命嗎?那我在這邊,剛才其實我非常遺憾的,我們的國防部長顧立雄,部長其實他也是大律師,"},{"start":9733.562,"end":9751.235,"text":"我不曉得他有沒有仔細看過這個相關的修法我在這邊就是有必要要破除錯假消息第52條非常清楚的這個條文如果院長現在手上可以趕快翻"},{"start":9752.745,"end":9767.581,"text":"第五十二條調查、調閱報告書及意見處理未提出之前這些八八八都有保密的責任而且特別講到只有涉及外交、國防及其他依法應蓋秘密事項者"},{"start":9768.582,"end":9791.168,"text":"於調查調閱報告及處理意見提出之後,原依依相關規定去保密。這是第五條,第五十二條清清楚楚的規定,也就是我們即便經過調查之後,但是涉及到國防外交及相關的一些法律,應該要保密還是要保密。好,再來看第五十九條之二"},{"start":9792.848,"end":9812.278,"text":"第五十九條之五也是一樣說出席的這個委員當然應該要這個要好好的來報告據實報告但是只要牽涉到國防外交相關的法令他也是有權利來保守秘密的"},{"start":9812.711,"end":9834.172,"text":"好所以我要講說在整個的法條的設計裡面我們希望在國會能夠有更強的監督權但是相關的國防外交以及其他法令規定的秘密在這裡面也有相當的保全的措施所以呢這些錯假消息真的不要再以訛傳訛"},{"start":9835.811,"end":9836.452,"text":"一句話就可以回答委員"},{"start":9859.226,"end":9886.654,"text":"但是說如果接受詢問的時候會對相關的議案這個問題不大但是與立法委員職權相關的事項都可以問就無限包山包海啦我剛才跟你講了嘛我剛才我不用再講了看52條第59條之五請回去做功課院長請教一下喔星期五我們就要對覆議案做出表決"},{"start":9887.984,"end":9892.029,"text":"你有信心覆議案能夠通過嗎?我很珍惜委員這一票"},{"start":9893.186,"end":9893.746,"text":"憲法的規定讓我沒有選擇"},{"start":9923.427,"end":9941.199,"text":"你會請辭嗎?直接講嗎?憲法的規定我只有接受我沒有辭職的問題所以你不會請辭但是呢 院長你從事政治工作這麼久其實也都知道其實做一個覆議案它是一個非常大的一個政治動作"},{"start":9941.459,"end":9958.075,"text":"他是憲法裡面的秩序跟設計沒有錯我講過就是不管是覆議也好或釋憲也好他都是我們在憲政體制裡面可以採取的相關的這個程序但是呢他在政治上是非常大的一個政治動作"},{"start":9959.056,"end":9986.119,"text":"那基本上我們為什麼在講說要有所謂的政治責任呢所以我覺得院長輕易的去開啟當然我相信你也是身不由己啦那麼輕易的開啟去做這個復議的動作事實上在政治責任上其實應該要負起責任的好因為我的時間比較有限我想給大家看一個影片給院長看一個影片"},{"start":10001.315,"end":10024.867,"text":"這個就是剛才李博義委員也特別詢問到的因為按照他的所講法說這邊部分被遮蔽可是我想在這個備詢台上兩位都當過立法委員那在立法院裡面我們在調閱文件的時候那看到像這樣像這樣可以繼續播放這個影片"},{"start":10028.58,"end":10034.12,"text":"這個影片幾乎百分之九十五以上吧全部都被槓掉"},{"start":10035.956,"end":10059.853,"text":"所以對於一個立法委員要行使他的職權想要來了解一個數位身份證花了公帑十四億但是呢卻在不同的行政院長的任內這個是賴清德當時擔任行政院長推動可是到了蘇貞昌當院長的時候呢就把他凍結暫停"},{"start":10061.374,"end":10089.636,"text":"那花了十四億不打緊因為未來還要每年花六千多萬去做維護那麼所以在立法院裡面那些委員會是依法來成立了這個調查委員會那麼看到的又是這樣的資料所以如果今天我們在國會改革上面我們沒有辦法強化一些我們國會監督的功能"},{"start":10090.489,"end":10101.086,"text":"我們很有可能每一次成立調查委員會最後就是這樣啊就跟過去之前在上一屆有關疫苗採購的時候看到的也是這樣"},{"start":10102.802,"end":10122.561,"text":"所以這讓很多的民眾看到之後他會以為說你們今天是擴權你們本來就有原來的一些你們的工具你們本來就有一些你們的這個職權可以行使但是我們要告訴當我們依現在的制度去行使的時候我們調到資料就是這樣子"},{"start":10123.582,"end":10125.603,"text":"報告委員你這個部分的資料是怎麼出來的我不知道"},{"start":10143.291,"end":10161.284,"text":"但是呢這裡面是一個技術服務的建議書他是一個附件內政部所提供的87個卷中的所有的這個我們的文件或我們的公文已經全數提供公共工程委員會也都全數提供所以這個是以偏概全的資料反而都蒙蔽了委員在做這個調閱的時候的真相"},{"start":10165.547,"end":10165.587,"text":"主席"},{"start":10185.54,"end":10204.05,"text":"民調,因為最近有很多的民調會針對,比如說包含支不支持這個行政院提復議啊,或者大家對於這些國會改革大家支不支持。其實老實講我對一些所謂的側議的民調我是覺得不值一顧。"},{"start":10204.75,"end":10230.915,"text":"但是呢我願意把那個游英龍老師那我想因為他他這個臺灣民意基金會不管他做出來的民調是有利於我們或者不利於我們其實基本上我都會引以一定的尊重所以在臺灣民意基金會呢做出來的最新民調有51%支持行政院提出覆議案我願意斟贈但是他這裡面有很多的子項目他的子項目可以看到"},{"start":10232.075,"end":10235.916,"text":"雖然有51%支持提出覆議案,但是以立法院職權行使法及刑法增訂裡面,這些包含聽證會、藐視國會罪和同意權的行使,贊成的都超過五成。"},{"start":10253.443,"end":10277.38,"text":"贊成的超過五成他贊成你們提復議但是他也贊成立法院的相關的法令的增訂而且所有每一項贊成的比例都高於不贊成的比例所以我要講到就是說當院長行政院提出復議的時候有真的去"},{"start":10280.261,"end":10295.328,"text":"請聽還有去接近民意嗎?如果在這一個多月來府院黨窮盡一切的力量去污名化國會改革的法案去阻擋國會改革的法案用盡一切力量但是以由於這個老師所做出來的民調仍然是這樣我覺得行政院還是要去參考好不好?我們沒有污名化國會改革我也支持國會改革但重要的是它對於憲政的支持"},{"start":10314.559,"end":10315.04,"text":"臨沂警委員"},{"start":10342.275,"end":10343.356,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長說明。"},{"start":10355.56,"end":10380.666,"text":"一萬七千九百四十一這是什麼樣的數字這是國家人權博物館去年根據現有的政治檔案研究從1945年到1992年所統計的政治受難者的數量實際上一萬七千九百四十一人就總人口數是少數中的少數但是我們絕對不可能因此說"},{"start":10382.026,"end":10398.547,"text":"威權統治對人權的侵害99.9%的台灣人都沒有被影響到因為真正可怕的是你只要不合統治者的意統治者隨時可以透過政治手段對你侵害"},{"start":10399.928,"end":10415.262,"text":"這種不確定性讓全台灣的社會為此而噤聲也常常的自我思想審查我們回到這次的覆議案我們知道藍白擴權法案要求社會上有關係的人員"},{"start":10416.443,"end":10434.918,"text":"有義務要提供文件資料、証言、表達意見跟接受詢問。行政院在覆議函中有強調,究竟何謂社會上有關係的人員,文字定義相當模糊,有恣意調查人民違反比例原則的疑慮。"},{"start":10436.039,"end":10455.795,"text":"立法院是有政治立場的所在有政治立場不是問題可是這是因為是民意機構有政治立場才能表達多元民意的需求但是有政治立場的地方極度不適合扮演客觀中立的法院"},{"start":10456.636,"end":10484.647,"text":"所以除非將調查聽證限縮在立法院職權範圍內否則即便受法的民眾跟官員少之又少但是這種政治掛帥的這個調查權的行使就會使民主大開倒車那就如同我一開始所提到的臺灣的政治受難者絕對不是一萬七千九百四十一人這個數字就可以草草被忽略的一百個人權是人權"},{"start":10485.467,"end":10502.312,"text":"一個人的人權也是人權就如獨同院長您曾說過的必須接觸每一個人對於藍白擴權法案中這種可能資益的影響人民的權利的條文我覺得想請教院長你有何評價跟呼籲"},{"start":10504.873,"end":10523.918,"text":"當然陳錄委員所說的再少數的人受到公不義的對待國家都應該去保護他而不是變本加厲的用各種方式讓他心生恐懼心生壓力雖然民主進步黨是現在中華民國台灣的執政黨站在立法院內是以韓國瑜院長"},{"start":10524.918,"end":10525.138,"text":"是,好"},{"start":10540.772,"end":10561.634,"text":"那我想沒有人反對國會改革陳如院長剛回答很多委員你也都這樣講那我們跟議場外很多參與青鳥行動的公民朋友一樣反對的是程序不正義跟立法倉促、粗糙而且事實上漏洞百出的"},{"start":10563.015,"end":10586.783,"text":"擴權二法。那我想今天在這個巡討我有個請求就是想要呼籲立法院所有的同仁們我們團結一致讓我們重回委員會來逐條討論這個爭議的法條那除了修正這個文字的基本錯誤外我想對於反質詢跟藐視國會這樣的概念的構成要件不明確"},{"start":10588.644,"end":10606.713,"text":"以及這個決而未易的程序不能得到解決我想除了這些一議都解決了國會改革才會是真的名副其實那根據行政院的覆議函政院這一次為什麼要提出覆議案有一個非常強烈的理由就是因為這一次藍白兩黨強推的這個拓權法案"},{"start":10615.301,"end":10625.933,"text":"可不可以請院長說明一下為什麼立法院三讀後送出來的法案會連法律的基本要件都沒有那法律的基本要件又是什麼請院長簡單說明"},{"start":10627.557,"end":10644.962,"text":"我們說過在程序上他沒有經過實質的落實實質的討論所以出來的法案會變成我們在依法行政當中我們認為他是有瑕疵的這是一個第二個他對於憲法的認知大家雖然對憲法的學者很多但憲法規定已經在這裡了"},{"start":10647.023,"end":10670.697,"text":"總統在立法院集會的時候的到立法院來做國政報告這個的寫得很清楚但現在的規定把它變成一定要來而且是定期而且集會集黨這個顯然跟憲法的規定很不一樣所以法律有很多所謂的構成要件那在構成要件當中我們審視這裡所有的條文在相當多我剛剛在一開始報告的時候所唸的那麼多條文"},{"start":10672.654,"end":10695.043,"text":"實在是經過了很神聖的包括我們院內的法學專家以及社會上的公法學專家都提供了很多的意見這些意見再加上民眾更多的聲音讓我們覺得不是為了維護憲法而已不是為了官員的尊嚴而已為了每一個國人他都可能在這個法律構成要件不明確的情況底下"},{"start":10696.54,"end":10723.049,"text":"內容不明確比例原則不符合而且不具有法律正當性站在這裡都可能被侵害我們被每一個人都必須要真真正正的從內心來保護他謝謝院長我想我們之所以會認為這一次擴權惡法欠缺法律的基本要件以外最核心的理由當然就是整個審議程序就誠如院長您所說的都不符合民主的原則那而且有重大的瑕疵"},{"start":10723.689,"end":10752.569,"text":"那我們在想什麼叫做反質詢那國民黨立委吳宗憲他對媒體提問他說立法完成之後就會做完整的交代那請問吳宗憲交代了嗎那吳宗憲當然沒有交代那可是後來改口他說他指的是立法完成後會產生判決跟判例那透過這些判決跟判例就可以回去解釋什麼叫做反質詢那用白話文講的就是"},{"start":10753.169,"end":10775.639,"text":"我先判了再說你先讓我罰罰看你就知道以後怎麼樣才會被罰那這種立法的態度跟法律的素養實在是令人嘆為觀止就如同我舉例來講我們叫委員會我們在審議黃牛票的態樣跟定義我們就花了很多的精神跟體力去好好的討論因為我有定義清楚你可以去定義說什麼樣叫做賣黃牛票"},{"start":10778.1,"end":10779.08,"text":"不透明的遊戲規則沒有任何人可以信服"},{"start":10798.75,"end":10818.277,"text":"那我們再來看看最新的民調怎麼看這次的覆議案根據中華亞太基因交流協會15日公佈的民調有高達61.4的民調支持覆議要求立法院要重新討論法案值得注意的是即便國民黨跟民眾黨的支持者也有大約四成人支持覆議"},{"start":10818.977,"end":10842.28,"text":"那就連臺灣民意基金會前天公布的調查也有過半的民眾支持行政院的覆議另外這兩份的民調中我們都可以看見有超過半數的民眾不清楚法案的內容就有學者分析這是因為修法的過程太過倉促以至於很多民眾對於修法後的影響也不是了解所以我們大家都希望透過這一次的覆議"},{"start":10843.001,"end":10868.976,"text":"可以更清楚知道修法的正義點在哪裡那院長想請教你怎麼看這些民調的顯示喔另外今天開始到週五的復議的投票日公民團體再度號召很多民眾在立法院外他們希望表達他們反對擴權惡法的訴求所以院長請問你有什麼要話要傳達給異產外的青年朋友們也要傳達給台灣各地的國人"},{"start":10872.162,"end":10896.618,"text":"對於正反雙方的群眾來表達聲音其實在這種天候底下我真的於心不忍如果我們在這裡可以合理公開的這樣討論讓它成為一個回到大院繼續可以重新審視機會的一個條文讓透過民主的程序共同來維護就可以不需要這樣子辛苦大家我過去到現在到今天我的心情是完全一樣的"},{"start":10897.481,"end":10912.312,"text":"是所以我想今天院長來到立法院也是目的要跟我們立委說明覆議案也請大家支持覆議案那院長剛剛有很多的報告說明這些行政院也說明了很多我想大家"},{"start":10913.552,"end":10934.892,"text":"聽的聽去聽不進去願不願意聽我想要靠個人的智慧跟良心那可是院長根據對於根本不了解法案或者只跟著盲目投票或者瞭解法案礙於黨意而沒辦法投票違背自身良知委員不曉得院長對他有什麼樣的呼籲例如說在上週"},{"start":10935.472,"end":10936.652,"text":"我相信每個委員都會勇敢的面對自己跟面對歷史"},{"start":10972.851,"end":10974.072,"text":"徐欣宜委員"},{"start":10996.118,"end":11001.122,"text":"謝謝韓院長﹚大會主席本席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長說明徐委員好卓院長﹚還有我們在場的委員﹚以及全國關心覆議案的民眾"},{"start":11018.683,"end":11042.552,"text":"今天我們立法院是在審議行政院所提的這個覆議案這是一個非常關鍵的時刻因為這攸關我們台灣能不能成為真正功能上意義上民主憲政國家的國會的關鍵時刻這也是一個決定性的時刻"},{"start":11043.615,"end":11066.021,"text":"能不能把過去民眾對於政府失能以及諸多的弊端到底能不能揪出弊端的決定時刻所以首先本席要請教卓院長您是否認同調查權是立法院的固有權利請您回答認同或不認同"},{"start":11067.415,"end":11070.276,"text":"本期想繼續請教院長您是否知道英國國會何時開始有調查權制度?知道嗎?"},{"start":11094.448,"end":11123.004,"text":"好本席告訴你是在西元1688年那請教院長德國國會何時開始有調查權制度好本席讓您了解答案是西元1816年那法國國會何時開始有調查權制度答案是西元1958年那美國國會美國國會何時開始有調查權制度院長了解嗎"},{"start":11124.824,"end":11128.689,"text":"他從開國以來一直都有調查權。我們鄰近的日本何時開始有調查權制度?在西元1946年開始。"},{"start":11141.024,"end":11169.841,"text":"所以從以上我們了解英德法美日這些先進的民主國家的國會他們都有超過幾十年甚至超過百年的調查制度當然社會上還有更多更多的民主國家也都具有調查權但是中華民國的立法院我們只有調閱權沒有調查權可以說是比起世界各國我們在這方面是大大的落後"},{"start":11170.521,"end":11179.026,"text":"所以本次的國會改革法案,就是要回歸憲政體制,健全政府運作,恢復立法院原有的職責。剛剛已經講了,大法官釋憲585號已經講過了。好,接著本席,本席要請教,請教您。"},{"start":11199.838,"end":11205.681,"text":"好分析請教民進黨我要請教院長院長我要抗議我的時間請暫停因為我沒有問那就一直答沒有問題麻煩請曾部長就不要搶答好不好謝謝謝謝院長剛剛沒有暫停這時間要給我好的那我們現在暫停10秒鐘好嗎好那等一下大概差10秒"},{"start":11229.707,"end":11229.827,"text":"請問院長您"},{"start":11235.913,"end":11235.953,"text":"主席"},{"start":11266.774,"end":11291.053,"text":"權力導致腐敗,絕對的權力導致絕對的腐敗所以希望民進黨的執政團隊不要換了位子就換了腦袋要記取你們的名字,民主進步所以我們希望一個連門而且清廉的一個政府"},{"start":11291.749,"end":11298.013,"text":"報告委員,我沒有反對國會改革,我也沒有不承認調查權,但是我們五院的體制,監察院有監察院的職權,"},{"start":11316.822,"end":11340.906,"text":"本席現在講的是立法院的調查權接下來本席要討論行政院的復議案在復議案的內容有提出一些錯誤的認知與見解本席希望提出來請院長還有全國民眾來審酌首先復議案有特別提到指責立法院的議事程序"},{"start":11343.047,"end":11360.101,"text":"說這個立法院的議事程序有致愛難行之處對於立法院的議事程序是否合乎憲政的精神與體制這個應該是國會自律的範圍那就算有發生重大爭議也應該是大法官經過憲法的這個判決來釐清爭議"},{"start":11364.224,"end":11383.887,"text":"那怎麼會變成行政院來指責呢?所以行政院指責立法院的立法程序這個是民主憲政國家行政機關罕見的傲慢表現所以完全執政八年的民進黨執政"},{"start":11385.731,"end":11409.406,"text":"造成的就是不斷的傲慢自我恐嚇我還沒問你第二個你們也提到舉手表決舉手表決是議事規則明定的合法表決方法竟然也可以成為復議的理由那所以院長所以未來行政院到立法院這個來"},{"start":11412.248,"end":11412.989,"text":"沒有辦法這樣回答"},{"start":11431.261,"end":11433.242,"text":"總統國情報告當然剛剛也很多答詢我們在這邊強調"},{"start":11459.907,"end":11486.876,"text":"先請教院長您這次組閣整個過程中有沒有跟總統討論跟報告?有或沒有?有!有嘛!所以我們全國人民都知道總統才是整個國政的決策者所有的重要人事提名、重大政務決策都是總統的意志啊!所以總統國情報告總不能總統演說完就走吧!所以在整個的國會改革內容裡面特別提到這個總統"},{"start":11491.454,"end":11507.562,"text":"等於是立法委員有不明瞭之處提出問題也非質詢嘛所以再加上賴清德總統在選前為什麼選後跟選前對民眾的承諾就不一致了呢這點行政院"},{"start":11508.442,"end":11532.81,"text":"以及賴總統一定要對全國人民有所表示而且要等於是為什麼選前選後兩樣情那這個我不在這裡我不在這裡來講再來因為時間的關係最後我們還有針對人事同意權的部分人事同意權的行使覆議案的內容也是非常的荒謬"},{"start":11534.295,"end":11559.872,"text":"人事同意權本席想請教這個院長如果有一個大公司他的高階主管他要聘用結果呢有人用虛偽的學歷經歷又不告知不告知有犯罪前科他詐騙取得了工作聘書院長同意這樣嗎就不要騙他阿他們就說對就是這樣那不然把他移送嗎"},{"start":11560.592,"end":11562.514,"text":"所以我們都不用防範一個國家一個國家這麼重要的人士包含監察委員包含考試委員包含大法官"},{"start":11575.578,"end":11596.688,"text":"要送到立法院審核的人事資料我們只是要求不要隱匿資料你要給正確的學經歷還有你有什麼犯罪前科你要提供結果連這個都不行所以我們真的非常遺憾行政院帶頭縱容難怪台灣的詐騙橫行這個讓我們覺得說這真的是虛偽不實的回答都是自己的人格自殺"},{"start":11605.012,"end":11606.292,"text":"我以為國人都不會容忍"},{"start":11635.183,"end":11653.654,"text":"市長會不會依憲法規定附屬?所以會依憲法規定附屬?所以本席最後提醒院長,復議否決卻不公布法案,不僅不能申請釋憲,更是嚴肅的違憲問題。"},{"start":11661.644,"end":11662.685,"text":"接下來我們請登記第12位參議與委員發言"},{"start":11684.466,"end":11689.91,"text":"謝謝院長那我們是不是有請我們卓院長以及我們法務部我們部長再請法務部說明"},{"start":11697.415,"end":11725.781,"text":"蔡委員好院長好院長我們今天在討論這個立法院然後這個國會擴權然後要把所謂調查權把它訂入這個法律我們這一部立法院的一個行為行使法裡面那有一個重點就是說國會的調查權它有規定的院長你應該很清楚嘛因為你本身對於律師的一個專業法律的一個專業我想你很清楚"},{"start":11726.101,"end":11726.382,"text":"585號有講到國會調查權"},{"start":11729.841,"end":11759.341,"text":"但是這個國會調查權他是為了因為在於說我們行使文件的一個調閱權在不足的地方然後必要時候得以傳喚相關政府人員或者是可以傳喚部分的民間人士然後來國會問然後縱使他問的時候如果有涉及到抗拒然後不去回答的然後他在罰款的一個範圍內他是可以去做行政的一個處罰"},{"start":11760.161,"end":11786.114,"text":"所以這是在585的解釋但是585這是上半段下半段有更多的有更多的一些文字的一個細載比方585後半段他講到有所謂行政特權館長行政特權有哪些啊我想總統啦或者行政長官他有一些行政上的特權這個是受到一些保障的"},{"start":11786.55,"end":11808.371,"text":"有受到保障嘛對不對所以說行政首長他可能對於干涉到行政的部門的有效運作有決定不予公開的權利那這個叫做行政特權那585號講得很清楚喔如果遇到行政特權那院長你剛剛立法院侵害到你的行政特權的時候585號有講要怎麼做"},{"start":11809.437,"end":11824.522,"text":"所以就是要維護五院體制行政歸行政、立法歸立法、監察歸監察、司法歸監察對,一定會說答案啦五院體制,就是說如果今天立法院調查權和你的院長、你的裁量、你的行政特權太崩"},{"start":11826.783,"end":11851.008,"text":"這個時候,第一,大法官解釋講得很清楚喔,立法院跟其他國家機關在你行政的一合理的途徑,協商解決。協商解決啦,就是一定要跟我們的韓院長協商。啊,如果協商出來,要罵倒,要罵倒形成答案,這個時候要怎麼辦?"},{"start":11852.606,"end":11876.544,"text":"吳鮑威號我們有講喔由司法機關審理解決有沒有?是吳鮑威號講的這個好,那我們這一次國民黨跟民眾黨所訂的這一套的立法院的這個調查權有講到這些嗎?有任何文字講到這些嗎?沒有嘛,他的調查權在47條嘛"},{"start":11878.646,"end":11905.544,"text":"調查權第四十七條說調查委員會或調查專案小組會行使調查權得要求政府機關部隊法人團體社會上有關係之人物之人員與五日內提供資料以及可以傳喚他們來這個是四十七條是調閱文件那還有另外的就是傳喚人沒有講到萬一權力產生衝突的時候"},{"start":11906.724,"end":11930.87,"text":"要怎麼來解決?這是不是一個問題?對,正義之解決是沒有去做這樣的一個處理,所以這個行使法對這樣是...是一個...如果這樣的這一部法律... 嚴重違反那個585號解釋的...解釋的意旨對,就違背了這個585的意旨嘛所以就很清楚,是讓大家法律人啊,我們說什麼的,這裡都是法律人一看而知,這個修法就違憲"},{"start":11932.504,"end":11953.624,"text":"這個修法就是沒打整個585號,他要上半段他只要擷取他要的部分,要的部分585號有講到說有部分的調查權,他就說這個好這個我要,權利我要,義務我不要,立法委員擴權,要擷取的權利,負擔義務都不要,他們只敢講585"},{"start":11955.359,"end":11958.543,"text":"而且585這部分是限那個調閱權他這個是把那個調查權進行他是把調閱權進行那調查權有沒有限制有沒有他的限制"},{"start":11967.294,"end":11971.157,"text":"這個調查權是有限制的,585號解釋,還有那個325,還有729號解釋對,729號,729號是講跟檢察官的一個文件的調閱嘛325號更精彩咩,325號齁,現在國民黨齁,跟黃國昌都不敢講啦"},{"start":11988.717,"end":11989.437,"text":"三百二十五號解釋"},{"start":12016.125,"end":12035.129,"text":"調查權應該是屬於監察院對不對縱使是監察院的調查權但是如果是國家機關獨立行使職權受憲法的保障第一個如司法機關審理案件所表示的法律見解第二個考試機關對於應考人員成績的評定"},{"start":12038.191,"end":12058.229,"text":"第三,監察委員的彈劾或糾正的判斷或訴訟案件在判決確定前的偵查作為,監察院對於行使調查權本受有限制,基於同一理由,立法院的調閱文件亦同受限制。有沒有這樣的文字?有"},{"start":12059.471,"end":12080.547,"text":"連監察院的調查權都不可以侵害到行政特權或者是司法的一個專業的判斷這就是那個到我可以解釋就是要注意到其實那個調查權要注意權力分立的原則彼此要有彼此尊重憲法的體律分際要有權力分立就是監察院的調查權一樣要有受到這些限制喔但是我們所訂出來的"},{"start":12082.601,"end":12099.526,"text":"我們所訂出來的這個法案他說我們四十七條的調閱文件必要時還可以要求司法機關或監察機關就在偵查中的案件他們可以因序名理由並提供副本"},{"start":12105.127,"end":12130.876,"text":"好 完整我這樣說應該這樣有違憲嗎?這大剌剌違憲的文字 這樣的法案有一個是慕尼黑的博士 有一個康乃爾的博士都捏出來了 都違憲到這樣這樣要叫我們被誰要買單叫我們一直說裡面有民進黨的條文我們民進黨裡面他們用通過的條文都是那種無關緊要程序性的問題"},{"start":12132.276,"end":12143.807,"text":"關鍵二十五條、關鍵四十七條、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關"},{"start":12152.341,"end":12173.436,"text":"這個內容的這個部分在整個一個一個調查權這形式他是把它列入到第八章這整個一個就是新增的一個條文就是完全違反了585號解釋的一個意旨一個意旨而且這違反到違反585跟325啦325那我們再來聊一下啦我剛才忽然間沒想到想不出來瞬間忘記"},{"start":12175.745,"end":12203.127,"text":"我們在講他們說你有保密義務嘛五十條也有規定保密義務所以涉及到國防跟外交這個屬於保密義務的部分如果你在行使調查權的時候政府機關我要說這個是屬於機密這個是屬於機密所以政府機關可以說這個我機密我拒絕回答拒絕回答勒要"},{"start":12203.871,"end":12207.175,"text":"那如果他拒絕回答我們可以馬上回到了對他的一個法則就是可以把他移送"},{"start":12223.092,"end":12223.893,"text":"公務員如果被判刑責會怎樣?"},{"start":12251.292,"end":12279.409,"text":"會不會被剝奪公務員資格?對,就被剝奪了會被剝奪公務員資格,他公務員就沒了我再講那如果立法委員在行使調查權的時候把這個機密講出來這部分在刑事法並沒有規範他那個救責的機制他沒有救責嗎?所以立法委員講出來的話這個保密的違反的話是沒有救責的機制我存三十秒,你給我說完如果立法委員一說出來好,縱使我們覺得很可惡你怎麼講出來,我們要把他起訴"},{"start":12280.663,"end":12292.943,"text":"他在法院的時候還會講什麼?不好意思!我有言論免責權!這是憲法給我的權利!你不可以碰我!這是我的言論免責權!你不可以碰我!他就這樣說!中時勒!"},{"start":12295.609,"end":12297.13,"text":"謝謝蔡宇為的發言也謝謝卓院長的說明"},{"start":12326.209,"end":12330.713,"text":"接下來我們請登記第13位林思明委員發言再請卓院長說明"},{"start":12348.902,"end":12377.989,"text":"林委員好。是,蘇院長好。我想院長根據臺灣民意基金會昨天的最新的民調對於國會改革的法案大部分的民眾表達了支持。院長你看見人民對於陽光國會的一個期待了嗎?我也期待一個真正的陽光國會。我想你也知道了。我想賴總統與您都口口聲聲說要少數服從多數。那麼現在民意就擺在這裡"},{"start":12379.676,"end":12382.538,"text":"任何一個國人權利受到傷害,絕對不是用表決的方式來決定。"},{"start":12394.656,"end":12417.445,"text":"我想國會改革的覆議案在您尚未收到立法院的條文前您就表態說行政院會提出覆議覆議以後你說以後還會釋憲我沒有這樣說我想這個就好你就說你要提出覆議我沒有這樣說所以這個就是代表您心裡您現在講說你沒有你說在收到法案之前我就這樣說我沒有這樣說"},{"start":12418.846,"end":12429.477,"text":"條文沒看過你就說要覆議我沒有這樣說在您尚未收到立法院的條文前您確實有這樣說就代表您心裡早有定見先設見再劃法"},{"start":12432.315,"end":12447.918,"text":"提出的覆議理由我們現在看到您的理由就是民進黨團立法院黨團的理由所以您仍然將自己視為民進黨的秘書長而不是我們國家的行政院長"},{"start":12449.139,"end":12467.885,"text":"凡事以黨議為優先條文內容您都還沒有看還不知道您就直接說自愛難行要提復議我沒有這樣說這樣的做法漠視民意黨議優先我會打臉你我想您這樣的做法更狠狠地打臉立法院"},{"start":12469.045,"end":12481.987,"text":"本席要跟院長說的是,立法院不再是行政院的法治局,院長請尊重立法院多數決的一個立法,這個才叫尊重民主。"},{"start":12483.223,"end":12512.763,"text":"院長,您身為民進黨秘書長的任務已經結束了本席希望您放下執念,別再留戀記者,自己現在是全國人民的行政院長反正民意站在民意為優先現在民意就是希望國會改革院長,我要在這邊特別呼籲您要與民眾站在一起"},{"start":12513.923,"end":12531.374,"text":"我們現在針對復議理由來就教院長憲法《徵修條文》第三條第二項第二款故規定說行政院得提出復議就自愛難行的法案但是我們現在看您的復議理由針對我們的議事程序"},{"start":12532.509,"end":12550.279,"text":"你認為說立法院的職權行使法的修正的審議程序不符民主原則,具有明顯重大的瑕疵,所以基於憲政機關依法行政的立場,執行上極有摯愛。本席要請問院長,你有參與立法院的立法程序嗎?"},{"start":12552.706,"end":12569.48,"text":"有所有的立法委員都參與過這個程序所以在這個法案在司法法制委員會總共開了一次的專報三次的公聽會一次的黨團協商以及我們的韓院長多次的協商會議"},{"start":12571.215,"end":12573.337,"text":"三百位法學專家也都有這樣的疑慮"},{"start":12588.689,"end":12601.737,"text":"請問議事程序是哪一條違反議事規則?您能夠具體說明嗎?報告委員,早上在您之前12個委員當中有好幾位都提出所有審查的程序,我們已經一一的說明了"},{"start":12605.356,"end":12618.563,"text":"就最後那幾天的在這裡的討論大院議場裡面的討論以及在表決的過程在場人數跟表決人數不同這個就是嚴重的瑕疵我已經事實講出來了我事實講出來了表決的過程在場人數跟表決人數不同這不是重大瑕疵嗎"},{"start":12632.054,"end":12643.425,"text":"有沒有內容的討論有沒有參與專報有沒有參與公聽會以及我們委員會的協商院會的協商的討論過程行政院完全沒有參與"},{"start":12644.622,"end":12662.548,"text":"那我怎麼會知道三場公聽會的事情呢?立法院的議事過程有重大瑕疵嗎?有你有調查嗎?有你有調查嗎?有了解有了解,你沒有調查嗎?你沒有權力調查嗎?我不能來調查委員,我跟委員不一樣你沒有權力調查,你也講說你不能調查"},{"start":12663.368,"end":12681.663,"text":"我告訴你依照大法官會議解釋第342號理由書依照民主憲政國家的通例國家的立法權屬於國會國會行使立法權的程序與不抵觸憲法的範圍內得以其自行訂定的議事規則為之"},{"start":12683.524,"end":12684.285,"text":"所以要不抵觸憲法"},{"start":12704.272,"end":12721.714,"text":"四至三四二號的解釋文我再念給你聽雖然法律案這立法程序有不帶調查事實即可認定為抵觸卸法,亦及有違反法律成立基本規定的明顯重大瑕疵者。就您提出的覆理由說認為說這個有明顯重大瑕疵"},{"start":12722.535,"end":12748.643,"text":"但是理由裡面有講事先機關要宣告無效必須是他的瑕疵要達到足以影響法律成立的重大程序如上有爭議上有待調查者極非明顯剛才您告訴我你沒有權利調查所以你如何認定說這個是一個明顯重大的瑕疵有這個抵觸憲法"},{"start":12749.795,"end":12769.133,"text":"我沒有調查是因為憲法讓我沒有調查立法院的選擇啊所以我依照憲法這個我沒有錯事實的調查事現機關都要受到限制而應回歸國會國會自律的這個這樣的原則來解決但是我們很遺憾的看到今天行政院的復營"},{"start":12770.482,"end":12799.198,"text":"對於國會行使立法權如何進行它的議事程序屬於我們國會自立的範疇四線機關都要基於權力分立的原則而認為它對此等事項的審查要受到限制所以司法院的大法官都認為不能介入國會自立事項但是行政院卻超越大法官予以指責立法院的議事程序行政院顯然不適格啊"},{"start":12800.097,"end":12818.354,"text":"大法官顯然不會接受抵觸憲法的任何法律案所以大法官都會自我限制說自己對相關國會之類事項的審查所以立法院也要有自己的節制啊所以立法院要節制啊沒有 動請大法官解釋整個對議事程序的規定"},{"start":12821.036,"end":12846.615,"text":"復不復二一規則屬於我們的自律事項行政院可以來指指點點所以行政院您根本就是已經違反三權分立的原則了您比司法院還大所以院長我要告訴你這個復議案真的非常的不適格接下來我們再看行政院提出的復議理由認為總統進行國情報告是違反憲法"},{"start":12849.761,"end":12877.905,"text":"再一次彰顯行政院與大法官之拘我想您認為行政院可以超越司法院來代表大法官解釋我想請問院長很簡單問你如果立法院邀請總統來立法院進行國情報告總統可以拒絕嗎?總統可以決定可以拒絕嗎?回答可或不可嗎?我不能對總統回答但是總統可以決定應立法院之邀來不來總統可以決定有沒有義務?"},{"start":12879.384,"end":12893.202,"text":"憲法上規定是的是總統可以決定有沒有義務沒有義務沒有義務這你的回答所以院長誠懇的告訴你你根本不了解憲法本席真的存疑啊"},{"start":12893.939,"end":12913.488,"text":"依照中華民國憲法徵修條文第二條第四項國家安全大政方針屬於總統的職權總統依照我們立法院職權行使法的規定他必須就立法院每年集會時聽取向立法院來做國情報告立法院可以邀請他來他可以來總統可以來"},{"start":12917.309,"end":12935.255,"text":"國家重大方針他必須來做報告所以照相關的規定他就是必須來所以你在今天還跟我講說他沒有義務來那你有在尊重立法院嗎?立法院邀請他總統可以不來啊?他可以決定在民主國的原理之下總統會充分尊重立法院但是他可以決定你根本沒有尊重憲法"},{"start":12946.088,"end":12971.236,"text":"憲法就規定最高的民意機關可以邀請他來他還可以拒絕不尊重民意啊非常離譜啦你們就是在違背憲法謝謝林思明委員的發言謝謝卓院長的說明報告全院委員會我們上午的詢答進行到此為止下午兩點三十分繼續開會現在休息"},{"start":13120.683,"end":13130.892,"text":"Wait wait wait test test 123 123辦公室 123 123辦公室 123 123"},{"start":19336.641,"end":19336.702,"text":"本集完"},{"start":21609.413,"end":21624.298,"text":"全院委員會 現在我們繼續開會進行詢答首先我們請賴瑞隆委員請發言好 院長 請卓院長麻煩請卓院長"},{"start":21634.605,"end":21662.435,"text":"委員長早上聽了你的詢答想問一下早上你的詢答我看到你有很多時候在回應等等的時候看來有些的立委們其實並不是很滿意你會不會擔心早上你的詢答有涉及到藐視國會跟涉及到反質詢特別是這次事件案的內容裡面就是覆議案的內容裡面早上我都依據先前的書面報告跟口頭報告的內容向委員來答詢"},{"start":21663.84,"end":21681.688,"text":"但是我是希望說今天這兩天的全院委員會既然是設定在覆議案那我們應該鎖定這樣的焦點但是大家所擔憂什麼叫做反諮詢其實沒有清楚的定義如果不滿意甚至願會多數而這個話有可能就用反諮詢來來幫你移送包括"},{"start":21682.268,"end":21682.668,"text":"院長同意這樣的看法嗎?"},{"start":21706.798,"end":21726.566,"text":"完全沒錯我早上形容過我如果是一般的國人第一次站在立法院裡面接受這樣的詢問心裡的壓力非常大在詢問的過程當中難免會有一些不是原來的意思的講話出來那這樣就應該被科以罰緩或是說政府官員就因為這樣子要科以刑責我覺得這個在"},{"start":21728.008,"end":21728.989,"text":"委員長也要保護每一位國人"},{"start":21748.736,"end":21751.337,"text":"感謝委員我如果依照憲法提出覆議那應該是大家心平氣和的來討論而不是在諮詢的過程"},{"start":21775.848,"end":21804.074,"text":"又那麼嚴厲的好像提出覆議是一個萬惡不赦大罪一樣那這樣子我覺得憲法的設計就違背了規則如果有違憲至於甚至有侵害人權連提覆議都不能覆議那我認為這個才是失職失責啦我認為這個所以我認為其實院長可能針對有問題的部分本來就該提出來這是憲法上賦予行政院的一個權責我也認為應該這麼做那我們當然更期待是禮拜五的時候經過每一個委員充分的思考之後"},{"start":21805.395,"end":21816.012,"text":"有相當多的爭議性我們也期盼能夠來通過這樣一個覆議讓這些有爭議性的回到院會委員會再討論我最近這幾天常聽到很多人就想說我們上電視來做辯論"},{"start":21818.902,"end":21837.941,"text":"要進到電視辯論那何不回到立法院內既然都知道有爭議有問題的話那何不回到立法院內再好好討論為什麼要讓一個充滿爭議充滿問題的一個法案來開始來推動這個對人民對國家都是一個不好的院長應該同意這樣的方向委員的立體的觀點"},{"start":21839.584,"end":21855.298,"text":"其實從今天早上的民調最新的民調看出來有47.4%是贊成覆議只有25%是不支持的所以顯然國人多數也是支持著行政院依法依憲來提出相關的覆議我們來看一下民調的顯示國民黨跟民眾黨兩黨的不滿意度"},{"start":21859.441,"end":21886.573,"text":"幾乎都飆高起來這一段時間都達到了57.8跟56.8這個都非常的高表示說這一段時間在野黨立委的這樣的強行的通過的這個法律的這個狀況其實是人民是有所不滿的但我們要來期盼這樣的不滿其實是給予說的政治人物都有一定的警惕如果發現有問題了那其實該做的不是強行再通過而是應該停下來重新再回到立法院來重新做討論"},{"start":21887.293,"end":21914.349,"text":"我認為立法院讓每個立委充分來討論我們一定有辦法制定一個更好的法案是一個真正的改革陽光的法案而不是一個擴權濫權的法案院長同意這樣的看法嗎?謝謝委員我認為所有的國人都一樣國會改革四個字沒有人會反對但他的精神應該是讓國會更有效率立法品質更好每個國會議員會更受到尊重整個國會的形象會更好"},{"start":21915.009,"end":21915.149,"text":"一周憲法規定"},{"start":21942.608,"end":21971.861,"text":"覆議案沒有過行政院就只能接受那行政會提出釋憲案嗎?我也沒有其他的選項那我現在所知民主進步黨立法院黨團有提出釋憲案那我們看看這個如果未來的有辦法透過另外的憲法的救濟讓整個事件能夠更圓滿的達到下一個階段對人民的權利的保障的話我們再做認識的思考如果覆議被否決的話認為每個相關的機關涉及到的其實都應該要提出來了齁其實不只是"},{"start":21972.741,"end":21981.644,"text":"民進黨黨團、行政院、監裁院的調查全部有些被受到影響,甚至於總統府都可以做思考。我們講的是一個制度,不是講個人。國家要照憲政制度走,才是一個穩健的國家運作體制。"},{"start":21996.989,"end":22012.72,"text":"所以我看了一下今天早上的民調其實對於總統包括對院長幾乎都是48、47這樣一個很高的支持度所以顯然這段施政院長這樣整個內閣算穩健的風格其實國人是支持的"},{"start":22013.26,"end":22014.06,"text":"院長你的看法呢?"},{"start":22042.526,"end":22064.464,"text":"國家還是要遲步的往前走,憲法設計的所有精神不要卡在這裡,所以退一步說,如果覆議案能夠過,那所有的事件案都會停下來,重新好好在立法院,由立法院內部很審慎的來審條,審查沒辦法解決問題。但是現在中華修正部分條文有可能如果被覆議否決的話,有百分之四十一"},{"start":22065.666,"end":22067.348,"text":"以37.5支持提不信案"},{"start":22081.367,"end":22100.302,"text":"有一百多個學者一百三十歲法律學者跟兩百個律師都連署多數的法律的專業都認為其實這個是擴權應該要重新再審慎應該要支持這樣覆議但是如果禮拜五的時候藍白國民黨跟民眾黨還是堅持要否決要覆議的話我認為將來一定會提出釋憲而這樣的釋憲結果我認為兩黨的領袖應該負起政治責任"},{"start":22105.306,"end":22125.352,"text":"不能夠只要求行政院長負責我認為你是依法提出來該做的覆議我反而認為如果事件結果出來了藍白強行要這樣過而事件結果出來的話我認為藍白的主席應該要下來負責這個當然不用院長答覆啦我認為這是個政治的問題但是我認為唯有這樣才能夠負起政治責任才能夠讓整個事情更加理性"},{"start":22125.752,"end":22146.439,"text":"所以我們呼籲藍白兩黨的主席應該審慎來思考怎麼樣來包括朱立倫包括柯文哲主席應該整個來思考國家長治久安如果你堅持要用黨的力量來推動來否決到復議的話那你將來視線如果過的時候你不顧這麼多專家的意見而執意這麼做那應該要負起政治責任"},{"start":22147.159,"end":22174.596,"text":"接下來我們來聽一下先後線齁包括要求總統及時回答 這個很清楚就是違憲清楚的違憲 憲法很清楚知道得聽舉總統的國情報告跟你要求總統應依序及時回答 總統要7日內回覆 嚴重的違憲這些白紙黑字 我不懂為什麼藍白的義務會強行這樣過 這個非常清楚吧 院長這是非常清楚的跟憲法完全抵觸 不僅是及時回答及問及答 而且是定期"},{"start":22176.115,"end":22202.621,"text":"請總統到這裏來到國會來報告這個得聽取是立法院有主動權包括總統也有主動權願不願意這是一種相互尊重的一個體制關係立法院是在監督行政院行政院對立法院負責憲政體制上是這樣子總統不能這個定得這麼清楚還可以這樣定我認為都是非常誇張包括侵害人權的部分也是啦你看社會有關係的人等的時候當院會決議的時候如果你不提供資料你就要被罰一萬以上十萬以下連續罰"},{"start":22203.601,"end":22218.272,"text":"包括無正當理由、拒絕表達意見包括拒絕證言、拒絕提供資料經過院會的決議就要罰一萬以上十萬以下罰款這個都已經嚴重的超越到了這個侵犯到人權的部分我們認為這個非常有疑慮都應該要審慎來討論"},{"start":22222.332,"end":22247.428,"text":"包括反質詢的部分反質詢剛剛講到了嘛定義這麼不明的狀態下說你對只要涉及到這個部分院會決議就有可能被處罰這對所有的公務員在台上不是只有院長不是只有部長一般公務員有可能上質詢台所以我認為這些應該都要審慎所以我們還是要再次呼籲我們希望支持復議能夠來反對破權我們希望週五的覆議案能夠順利的來通過讓國家建立一個穩健的一個體制"},{"start":22253.292,"end":22277.883,"text":"謝謝賴慾龍委員的發言,也謝謝卓院長的說明。接下來,我們請登記第15號賴世保委員發言。謝謝主席以及各位先生,有請行政院的卓院長。再請卓院長說明。"},{"start":22287.134,"end":22315.151,"text":"來委員好欸 院長你好你還沒上台之前啊外界對你的評價是軟軟有溫暖然後呢很容易溝通easy going姿態低結果現在不是欸覆議案什麼意思覆議案就是立法委員經過大院的多數決通過的案子啪你一個巴掌打過來"},{"start":22316.752,"end":22336.119,"text":"我才發現說,噢,不是軟爛餒是笑面虎餒笑嘻嘻的啪一個巴掌過來覆議案是對立法院打一個大巴掌我們來看過去的覆議案是什麼過去十個覆議案都是行政部門針對行政部門"},{"start":22338.402,"end":22362.389,"text":"比如說《會計法》、《地政事法》十一號在1993年的連戰針對《立法院主持法》第十八條但是行政院後來撤回了行政院基本上要尊重立法院你當過立法委員我們就是一票一票選出來的你這次還沒有選票基礎你就是賴清德喜歡找你當行政院長"},{"start":22364.175,"end":22388.185,"text":"對不對,所以你現在看,你看這個樣子,從容笑容到底消滅了,啪一個幫長打過來,非常不友善的,非常不友善的,非常不友善,我沒有叫你回答你先不要回答,要尊重我,時間我的我就十分鐘而已,非常不友善,這個我就告訴你整個story,你的牙膜我就很清楚了"},{"start":22390.169,"end":22414.712,"text":"執政長 輸不起啊國會少數不敢關啊賴清德四層不敢關啊你知道嗎 他剛才委員講民調多高多高不要忘了喔 賴清德一個月來他少了兩百萬票這是山水民調做的然後民調做的一樣支持國會改革六層挺國會調查調查結果為什麼"},{"start":22415.765,"end":22437.173,"text":"因為過去八年來鼻咽太多,雞蛋的問題、疫苗的問題等等,都是問題。我給你看一個民調太多人講了,我就不講民調,講AI,最流行的AI,黃能勳。AI,大家熟悉的CHAT、GBT,請問你知道有一個叫TADE嗎?T-A-D-E你知道嗎?"},{"start":22438.615,"end":22466.422,"text":"知道嗎?這是賴清德那時候在去年的九月提到AI就是國力AI應該擁有台灣要擁有AI的對話引擎國科會很快地做出來TED怎麼說你的互議案?TED講的喔我們develop我們develop執政黨試圖用行政力量"},{"start":22468.4,"end":22489.342,"text":"與黨部動員民眾去對抗推翻國會已經經過民主表決通過的國會改革法案這種做法屬於反民主的獨裁行為然後check的GBT國際AI深圳市議員也是如此你們這種行為行政院"},{"start":22490.779,"end":22506.784,"text":"然後加上這個發動民眾執政黨發動民眾這個就是反民主獨裁這個大家看得到何俊平在這裡就發動了其他的立委在這裡發動來喔大家來喔怎麼沒有發動你沒發動民進黨發動了對不對反民主獨裁行為"},{"start":22513.608,"end":22530.739,"text":"臺灣的國科會發展出來的 AI 性的語言就講你是反民族獨裁行為國際的 ZGBT 一樣反民族的獨裁行為這是這個請回答第一"},{"start":22532.273,"end":22546.1,"text":"覆議這個權利只是憲法給你這一次完全是立法委員職權行使法干你什麼事啊所剩這麼長所剩這麼長的管道立法院的事情人家的覆議案還是不要答覆"},{"start":22550.672,"end":22555.615,"text":"這次立法院的職權行使法如果只是牽涉到委員在內部的表決、問政等等沒有牽涉到一般的國人"},{"start":22576.4,"end":22591.816,"text":"政府人員、機關、法人、團體、部隊的話那就是立法院內部的行為的規範但是它確實以及外界的所有包括一般的國人都可能發生這種權利被傷害的這個可能之餘所以我必須站在這個觀點上"},{"start":22593.37,"end":22596.011,"text":"院長不是這樣講我們這個案子現在通過的只有柯靖民以前國會改革的版本顧立雄現在坐在這裡"},{"start":22610.679,"end":22623.843,"text":"林佳龍,我們只有他的八成啊!當然不一樣,我們的輕微,比較light,light,light,他們很重啊!郭立正提得很嚴重啊,苦力啊!那重點在這裡,重點都不是這裡啊!"},{"start":22627.984,"end":22651.316,"text":"重點就是你被人家玩耍被柯建民當柯建民的小弟就配合互議然後動員然後開始這個未來就提大法官事先民進黨出來一定提事先因為後天他一定不會過事先來一定不會過你明知道不會過硬要傳因為你沒辦法你沒辦法做決定"},{"start":22652.13,"end":22665.839,"text":"我覺得身為行政院我有責任提出因為整個來講就變成說整個社會剛選完勒老百姓噴到我都說啊有些教授說賴委員賴教授Give me a break"},{"start":22667.875,"end":22669.556,"text":"所以各個政黨為甚麼不能休息呢?為甚麼你們不讓政府"},{"start":22688.712,"end":22689.853,"text":"我們來看一下總統府成立三個委員會這個氣候變遷"},{"start":22719.008,"end":22737.716,"text":"全民防衛健康台灣全民防衛這是總統的職權我可以接受另外兩個是你的勒老實講看下一頁憲法五十三條規定喔行政英文為最高行政機關"},{"start":22739.994,"end":22765.282,"text":"他侵犯你的行政權總統侵犯你的行政權總統是國家元首對外代表國家但是憲法定了這麼清楚你現在講這個違憲總統這個做法就是違憲他踐踏你的行政權分割你的行政權所以難怪你現在變成乖跑包然後你的歌員一個一個本來人才像比如說經濟部長郭志輝"},{"start":22767.803,"end":22768.483,"text":"竟然找童子賢啊!"},{"start":22798.184,"end":22816.675,"text":"當副召集人啦!召集人是總統,副召集人童子賢,欸!機關插你唇口!感覺童子賢是勇兒的!原來郭時輝跟童子賢是同個調調,郭時輝為了要當官出賣自己的良心!"},{"start":22817.737,"end":22819.779,"text":"出賣自己的良知,讓全民吐氣。"},{"start":22833.285,"end":22845.072,"text":"他就是出賣良心對方出賣良心為什麽他原來講合二合三可以研議為了台灣供電為了要在這裏設設場需要大量運電還要研議核電廠為什麽你們把他打回票"},{"start":22850.895,"end":22860.203,"text":"委員不知道河山廠如果研議要多久時間他不能發電這個是事實的問題所以這個是總統侵犯你的權利這是違憲的很高興委員回到憲法來你終於回到憲法了很高興這個有可能就充其核電喔這個伏筆埋得很深喔"},{"start":22876.836,"end":22877.716,"text":"所以確定沒有核電那就算"},{"start":22909.76,"end":22917.911,"text":"謝謝賴氏寶委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的說明。接下來我們請登記第16位陳廷飛委員發言。"},{"start":22933.325,"end":22934.386,"text":"主席卓議員主席卓議員"},{"start":22953.936,"end":22955.157,"text":"包括委員包括"},{"start":22983.635,"end":23005.812,"text":"若干的委員通過裡面的內容很多到現在就欠缺法律的明確性我們無法定義它我們在這裡經常有這樣的經驗在這裡尋答還有一點點知道如何去面對一般的國人是無法的所以缺乏法律的明確性這一點是非常清楚而且是嚴重的"},{"start":23006.172,"end":23034.11,"text":"所以我們會提出覆議是因為缺乏法律的一個依據性明確性對還有明確性所以在這樣的一個依據性明確性非常清楚的我們問了什麼叫反諮詢沒有定位沒有定義因為未來我們看到如果定位不明的時候有可能出席委員五個人以上連署後覆議"},{"start":23035.496,"end":23063.031,"text":"這一個被質詢人不滿他的意思就會被處罰兩萬到二十萬的罰還還可以連續罰而且如果出席委員五人以上連署或復議還得被移送彈劾跟懲戒最嚴重的所謂的虛偽陳述還會處一年以下有期徒刑拘役還有二十萬元以下的罰金"},{"start":23064.676,"end":23091.483,"text":"所以未來來到立法院我看這些行政官員都不敢講話了因為不要講話啊因為講的話如果不滿這個立委的意思完蛋了我可能隨時只要五個人以上連署我就要被彈劾被懲戒那我相信院長你站在這些所有行政官員的leader"},{"start":23106.11,"end":23119.515,"text":"所以當然希望這樣的結果不會發生在任何官員或是國人的身上所以我們才提出這樣的覆議就是希望能夠再重新的思考裡面任何一個有瑕疵自在難行的地方"},{"start":23120.131,"end":23142.979,"text":"所以我們為什麼從之前希望是討論溝通我們大家把它定得非常清楚好對於反諮詢我相信我擔任立法委員我也沒有辦法接受行政官員對我們的不尊重或是對於我們所諮詢的議題不理不睬甚至沒有任何的回應"},{"start":23144.079,"end":23163.154,"text":"我們也沒有辦法接受啊可是你的標準要設在哪裡不是你高興你要彈劾他就可以彈劾他還是他講的話不如你意你就要彈劾他這是白色恐怖耶這是立院的白色恐怖耶另外還有調查權"},{"start":23164.434,"end":23190.149,"text":"你調查權定位不明也是很危險耶今天監察院有調查權好檢調有調查權現在多了立院有調查權請問這三方我們整個定位要怎麼區分啊那今天如果民眾拒絕立院的調查完蛋了經過決議也是一樣"},{"start":23191.479,"end":23210.325,"text":"可以決議處一萬到十萬元的罰款還可以連續罰甚至公務員也是一樣如果有出席的委員五人你拒絕接受調查五個委員以上連署或呼應就要被送彈劾或懲戒"},{"start":23211.755,"end":23240.266,"text":"一樣虛偽陳述者還是會有一年以下有期徒刑拘役或是二十萬元以下的罰金今天其實為什麼會有那麼多的輕鳥就是因為大家恐慌大家擔心什麼時候我會變成是那一位被要求調查而我不配合而要被處罰還甚至會處刑責的那一個民眾"},{"start":23241.877,"end":23263.182,"text":"所以才會有那麼多的青鳥因為認為立院擴權了還有立院我們的調閱權也是一樣當你定位不明的時候民眾也是擔心當我拒絕被你調閱的時候我還是會被懲處罰款"},{"start":23265.612,"end":23282.705,"text":"可是沒有人跟我講我為什麼要接受你立法院的調閱沒有人跟我講我的標準在哪裡範圍在哪裡立法委員的權責到哪裡沒有這裡面沒有講啊"},{"start":23284.697,"end":23306.632,"text":"這就是外面那麼多人為什麼質疑也是立法院為什麼希望好好談的原因我相信也是院長你們會提出復議最重要的因素因為你們要保護人民你們要保護所有的公務人員不要讓他們陷入恐慌、擔憂還有聽證權"},{"start":23309.912,"end":23317.98,"text":"我想聽證決也是一樣當你定位不明的時候你也是虛偽陳述你要被處罰還什麼叫虛偽陳述院長虛偽陳述這四個字"},{"start":23326.502,"end":23355.396,"text":"有太多的範圍而且自由新政太廣闊了這個部分你沒有定清楚你沒有講明白虛偽陳述這四個字你知道可以帶了多少的高貌嗎這也是民眾為什麼那麼多人在我們當時候5月17號開始在表決然後有那麼多人願意站出來冒著風雨"},{"start":23357.874,"end":23382.894,"text":"為我們大家來做後盾最重要的因素因為當你從反質詢、調查權、調閱權還有聽證權、定位不明然後還有行政法、還有刑法這是白色恐怖嗎?院長我相信這應該是你提出復議最大的因素吧"},{"start":23383.888,"end":23411.948,"text":"沒有錯委員真的講到我們每天在反轉思索的這個問題如果這個讓每一個國人都要面臨這樣的心理壓力的話那以後進到這裡的每一個人他如何去就他的專業來講清楚專業上的機密他如何來維護在過程當中又沒有辦法得到必要的時候得到律師的保障這種在正當法律程序上的欠缺以及要不就可以"},{"start":23412.568,"end":23416.792,"text":"國會改革一直都是我們從過去到現在民進黨一直堅持的我們從來沒有反對國會改革可是我們反對的是過度擴權的國會改革"},{"start":23436.977,"end":23443.891,"text":"而且我們更反對你用國會改革這四個字好像可以無限上綱"},{"start":23445.834,"end":23471.817,"text":"如果今天我們都可以有調查權我們也希望有調查權啊我們就把所有的調查權來整合大家談清楚我們要怎麼樣的限縮範圍我們的範圍在哪裡我們的調閱權要怎麼樣的依據我們的所謂的反質詢應該給所有公務人員怎麼樣的依詢還有我們的聽證權這些都可以談啊不是不能談啊"},{"start":23473.258,"end":23490.347,"text":"為什麼不談,然後就把5月17號定了一個dayline,說就是這一天要投票,不投不行,然後往前推一個月,然後在4月17號以前一定要趕快出委員會,因為有一個月的冷凍期。"},{"start":23491.838,"end":23511.468,"text":"當你壓了這些數字,當你壓了這些時間,國會改革就會變掉,因為它就沒有辦法被充分討論。當沒有被充分討論,它沒有被社會大眾所接受,那麼它就是一個失敗的國會改革。"},{"start":23512.268,"end":23540.404,"text":"所以我們不希望說拿著國會改革的大旗可是卻在做立法院擴權的事甚至讓民眾會覺得有白色恐怖對於立法院當今天收到公文的時候他要不要來啊我會被罰啊我會不會被行政處分或是我會被刑法來做拘役甚至做徒刑的一個判定"},{"start":23542.094,"end":23564.634,"text":"這太恐怖了所以院長堅持是對的因為我們不希望有國會改革的大旗造成民眾的白色恐怖謝謝陳廷輝委員發言謝謝卓院長的說明接下來我們請登記第17號鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":23583.249,"end":23611.741,"text":"指席 院長 行政院院長及政務委員各部會首長有請我們的行政院院長 還有法務部的部長 請法務部說明院長好 政務委員好今天談這個覆議案 中華民國憲法增修條文 明訂行政院"},{"start":23612.694,"end":23640.255,"text":"對於立法院結議之法律案認為有自愛難行,得以請總統合可,以請立法院覆議。在民國九十四年我擔任嚴明會的副主任委員常務副主委當初通過了立法院通過了原住民族基本法當時行政院也打算要覆議經過我們"},{"start":23643.138,"end":23670.959,"text":"嚴明慧跟行政院院長做詳細的說明也跟總統做了報告後來沒有提這個覆議今天特別請這個我們法務部部長因為這涉及到法律、憲法行政院所提的覆議的七大原因列了七項看到看了之後對一個"},{"start":23672.859,"end":23700.367,"text":"雖然考不上律師、考不上法官的鄭天才而言但是就這個就三十年的公務行政經驗來看真的是需要好好的檢討我就不依其他的委員都已經提過了國會改革法修法的時間一次專報、三次的公聽會然後多次的委員會議然後相關的這些"},{"start":23703.898,"end":23712.204,"text":"立法院宴會開了四天四夜總共委員會民進黨發言時間308分鐘然後民進黨團提了40次上會動議朝野協商總共有483分鐘然後宴會民進黨發言時間277分鐘"},{"start":23734.103,"end":23760.314,"text":"這個整個通過的條文按照民進黨的再修正通過了32條加一章的章名然後三個黨團一樣的就四條所以超過一半所以我們就一個一個來看用時間的關係我們先看這個行政院復議的理由就是說未經實質審議及討論我剛講了"},{"start":23764.492,"end":23791.741,"text":"這麼多的時間,這麼多的分鐘,這麼多的發言而且這個是屬於憲法六十三條立法院的職權是否,你們這邊有提到違反憲法六十三條的規定這是按照憲法這個是憲法第十八條司法院的職權所以司法院"},{"start":23793.098,"end":23817.737,"text":"一頁《憲法》所賦予的行政權我們看《中華民國憲法》徵修條文第四條立法院以每年集會時得聽其總統國情報告這次的修法這是立法前這次的修法明定每年的幾頁把它明確化"},{"start":23819.687,"end":23823.029,"text":"大法官釋字第五八五號,立法院調查前行使之方式並不以要"},{"start":23843.581,"end":23857.589,"text":"要求有關機關就立法院行使職權首涉及事項,不以要求有關機關就立法院行使職權事項"},{"start":23861.616,"end":23888.606,"text":"也就是說必要時並得經立法院院會的決議要求以調查事項相關之人民或政府人員陳述證言或表示意見並得對違反協助調查義務者以苛處法人之範圍內施以合理之強制手段這是一個補充解釋好"},{"start":23894.161,"end":23917.687,"text":"立法院職權行使法這次的修正條文立法院未有效行使憲法所賦予之職權限收了還比剛才我念的大法官司那個解釋還沒有超過限收還是限收在行使憲法所賦予之職權"},{"start":23920.716,"end":23926.18,"text":"不得一頁調查的目的事項與範圍違反法律明確性的原則"},{"start":23944.35,"end":23970.515,"text":"隱匿資訊﹚藐視國會﹚稀為答覆﹚稀為陳述這裡面也提到藐視國會最之規定違反法律明確性原則這裡面提到什麼重要關係事項稀為陳述對不對"},{"start":23973.496,"end":23995.789,"text":"好,我們看這次的修正條文。這次的修正條文,《中華民國刑法》增訂第五章之一及第一百四十一條之一修正條文。第五章之一,沒有錯,它的章名叫《藐視國會罪》。第141條之一的條文我念一下。"},{"start":23998.939,"end":24027.061,"text":"公務員於立法院聽證或受質詢時就其所知之重要關係事項﹖剛才你們說重要關係事項﹖不明確嘛對不對﹖法律不明確為稀為陳述﹖你說稀為陳述﹖不明確所以這個是要經過法院的審理判決﹖不是像你們的先導文寫裏面的說懷疑就要刻意行責"},{"start":24028.769,"end":24050.311,"text":"好,部長那個刑法一百四十一條之一的這個立法我們認為這是一個違反五八五號解釋的一個這個在整個一個一個聽證跟那個尤其是質詢這是一個不明確的概念我們那個立委在質詢的話包羅萬象五花八滿這個甚至跟議案無關"},{"start":24051.492,"end":24078.257,"text":"那這跟議案無關的話,我們如果去確定這個是一個真實判斷的問題,而且沒辦法去判斷這個真偽,如果說委員所質詢的是一種錯誤的訊息,我們也沒辦法去做一個澄清。那就像我們刑法偽證罪,那我跟委員談刑法一百六十八條的偽證罪是因為證人去陳述我自己親眼看到、親耳聽到的一個事實,我講的跟這個我親眼看到、親耳聽到的事實是不一樣的,所以要虛偽陳述問題。"},{"start":24079.597,"end":24108.064,"text":"那如果是這一條一四一之一這一條是涉及到主觀價值的判斷大家認知的這個差距對政策的一個說明如果說這樣不一樣的話就被指為這個這是一個一個虛偽程式甚至我們也不清楚這個是不是根柔制我也質詢了那這是一個不明確的一個法律觀念而且要用刑法的那個處罰這是違反刑法簽歷原則最後手段性原則所以這個是一個沒有拒絕這違反正常的一個法律正當法律程序"},{"start":24108.885,"end":24118.113,"text":"我再給你確認一下按照這個修正條文藐視國會罪的過程要見我先講過程要見過程要見是不是"},{"start":24121.795,"end":24147.464,"text":"就所知之重要關係事項,為悉為陳述者。過程要見識這個嘛,對不對?我們先不談,是不是?所知齁,所知是一個不確定概念,應該我們親眼看到、親耳聽到的,我們才知道這些爭委的問題。所知的是一個認知的一個差距,這個涉及主觀的一個排化。你先聽一下,是不是明確、不明確,等一下我會告訴你嘛。"},{"start":24148.226,"end":24169.458,"text":"我先問你,藐視國會罪,就這個條文所述名的,是指就所知之重要關係事項稀為陳述,是構成要件,對不對?他這是這樣寫的,是一個構成要件。好,你先聽,看一下。中華民國刑法,"},{"start":24175.595,"end":24200.631,"text":"民國二十三年的隱匿這兩個字因為這裡面你們剛才的理由都有提到隱匿好,中華民國刑法民國二十三年十月三十一號制定的就已經寫重要關係之事項為什麼這已經超過多少年了沒有修正等一下等一下等一下"},{"start":24202,"end":24207.024,"text":"稀微陳述中華民國刑法稀微陳述有沒有定義?沒有定義。"},{"start":24228.659,"end":24254.311,"text":"因為之前的判刑法部會有過非法、中華民國刑法．還有甚至的話．立法院職權行使法本來就有政黨提侵匪賊組織盪旗隔擋法條例．也有促進轉型正義條例．也有負責異例或稀微懲處"},{"start":24264.661,"end":24265.341,"text":"徐富奎委員"},{"start":24290.176,"end":24314.401,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們卓院長麻煩再請卓院長說明徐委員好院長好,院長辛苦了不會,應該的院長,我想民進黨支持國會改革但堅決反對國會濫權,院長同不同意謝謝委員的支持"},{"start":24315.486,"end":24344.334,"text":"好,院長我想經過這次的修法我自己個人覺得這個立法委員不再只是立法委員而是兼具了監察委員甚至是檢察官的身份因為現在的立法委員權力無限的大那包含我們現在聽到的包含我們的政府官員部隊企業社團跟個人都充滿在一個藍白恐怖的一個氣氛之下"},{"start":24345.374,"end":24370.08,"text":"所以我昨天在屏東辦了一場宣講活動,我們很多鄉親要跟我們行政團隊加油,希望大家加油,我們一起反擴權、互民主。那院長我想,我們怎麼樣針對這一次的這個覆議案的一個關鍵點,能不能請院長再說明一下,我們為什麼堅決要提出覆議。"},{"start":24371.684,"end":24386.093,"text":"第一個當然就是他整個討論的過程,非常的不完備,現缺這個民主的程序。再來他對於憲法的認知是嚴重的抵觸了憲法,尤其在總統到大院來進行國情報告。"},{"start":24387.441,"end":24407.574,"text":"變成一個定期的或是不定期的義務而且要急問急答的方式這顯然非常的不妥同時在調查權、調閱權跟聽證的這個過程裡面欠缺了法律的明確性法律的比例原則跟正當的法律程序對一般國人的基本法律的保障非常的不足"},{"start":24408.354,"end":24431.835,"text":"所以總總看起來我們就算不是為政府官員就也應該為所有的國人提出這樣的覆議案那我們才能保障每一個人不受這種權力的侵害好 院長那我想從早上到現在我們民進黨有很多的委員針對一個藐視國會就有提出一個質疑那我個人認為現在的公務人員是一個危險行業為什麼"},{"start":24434.053,"end":24437.656,"text":"國家還是要持續前進的但是公務人員絕對不能後悔回答我說過"},{"start":24449.966,"end":24456.869,"text":"問題現在的問題是出在於說連我們自己國民黨的召委吳宗憲什麼叫反質詢的定義都講不清楚的時候你叫這些官員"},{"start":24475.689,"end":24491.575,"text":"有一個怎麼樣一個遵守的一個準則甚至有些鄉親跟我講說叫他們的兒子不要待在中央部會太危險了趕快調回來基層公務單位比較安全這個真的很恐怖那我想針對這一次的修法我個人覺得"},{"start":24493.903,"end":24522.497,"text":"這個整個國民黨跟民眾黨是要讓我們所有的行政體系而產生一個恐懼感這樣他們才可以予取予求但是院長我要跟你說明的是根據我們現在的民調來看我們整體國人有超過有將近六成是支持覆議的我們一個很強大的一個民意基礎甚至連民眾黨跟國民黨的支持者也有將近一半是支持覆議的那針對這個覆議案院長有信心嗎"},{"start":24523.68,"end":24547.177,"text":"所以我相信台灣是一個相當成熟的民主國家不應該有這樣的法案這樣的內容來出現所以當國人認真來審視的時候每個人都會發揮一個民主國家的主人的立場角色跟他的認知所以如果大家能夠充分的了解這個法案的內容讓大家能夠支持覆議案重新審慎的再檢查一次這絕對是未來國家進步的福氣啊"},{"start":24548.496,"end":24556.393,"text":"現在外面有很多我們的年輕朋友很多的我們的鄉親坐在場外也在關心我們這三天的一個情勢的變化那我想"},{"start":24558.135,"end":24583.078,"text":"聽說北海道的老百姓又下雨了我們的鄉親這麼多來自全台各地的鄉親淋著雨他們關心台灣的民主被沒收在這邊消失了真的真的讓我們非常的憂心聽到外面的喇叭聲跟外面的打雷聲實在是餘心非常不忍我們何不在這裡好好的討論就可以不用這樣讓大家這麼辛苦"},{"start":24583.758,"end":24610.391,"text":"這是我們做得到的只要通過覆議案我們就回到立法院來討論我們做得到的對大院做得到的院長那萬一禮拜五的覆議案沒有通過那院長個人後續有什麼樣的處理的一個方式依照憲法的規定他只寫到必須接受這樣的這個法案這樣的法律案我沒有其他的選項但是繼續下去我們還可以尋求其他的憲法上的救濟呃"},{"start":24613.711,"end":24633.764,"text":"從中國流亡作家袁弘明教授從今年2月就有一個事情國台辦針對一個佔領台灣立法院制高點的一個統戰戰略的要點其中一點就是要透過特定人士包含我們的韓國瑜院長、傅坤祺還有國民黨立法院的黨團就是要運用議會改革的名義"},{"start":24634.104,"end":24636.346,"text":"我希望國內重要的政治工作的人物"},{"start":24659.298,"end":24659.839,"text":"有疾可循啊院長"},{"start":24683.831,"end":24710.063,"text":"所以我們要更加強我們內心自我的防衛跟對台灣民主的信念對那針對這個部分請教院長我想這個中共的這個文攻武嚇一直不斷包括這個軍機這個潛艇也不斷在我們這個四周這個在出沒那針對這部分我們國安單位到底有沒有掌握類似的一個相關的一個情資讓我們的國人能夠安心"},{"start":24711.372,"end":24726.148,"text":"這個我們昨天都說明過了,無論是潛艇或是民航機都在我們的掌控當中,沒有發生任何的意外跟危險的可能。對,那我們也要持續注意一下啦齁。那,民進黨我想這個,我們民進黨這次的這個"},{"start":24729.755,"end":24742.306,"text":"我會沒有過半當然對我們行政團隊是一個很大的挑戰那過去我們在阿扁總統的時期也遭遇過這個嘲笑也帶一個困境那當然依我個人來講我覺得國會擴權是國民黨跟民眾黨的第一步"},{"start":24746.269,"end":24771.128,"text":"後續他們針對所謂一個財化法的一個劃分甚至提出許多的淺坑法案這個才是後面他們的目的那針對這個部分其實我們有許多的我們的縣市首長甚至我們的鄉鎮長這幾天也很憂慮說會不會因為這樣子的一個淺坑法案一個不公平的一個財化法造成我們整個一個地方公共建設推動的一個受阻甚至這個預算的被剝奪"},{"start":24773.139,"end":24798.542,"text":"謝謝委員關心財化法我覺得這個是接下來兩院之間要好好來研商的如何保存中央政府的財政的彈性跟能力有辦法在任何天災地變或是長期的計畫裡面持續對地方做更多的挹注在這個前提底下讓地方能夠在財政的能力上也能夠有所的改善這是可以談的但這絕對不是用"},{"start":24800.285,"end":24823.28,"text":"把中央的錢抓到地方手上就可以解決的一個這樣解決不了地方公平均衡發展的這個目標因為我想我們賴總統也提到我們區域均衡發展一個重要性我想在卓院長領導的這個行戰團隊也非常清楚現在六都跟非六都其實各有各的一個發展的一個條件也有不一樣的一個狀況"},{"start":24824.381,"end":24843.81,"text":"那我相信我們主委院長也會針對像譬如說像屏東縣我們需要的交通建設、產業建設、文化建設種種之類的我們會請各部會來盤點我們都照起剛照報來我們把一個我們要的建設一樣一樣把它處理好照程序來進行是不是應該有這樣的一個邏輯思考"},{"start":24845.558,"end":24870.647,"text":"國家的體制跟國家的財政已經有相當健全的機制可循我希望都透過這樣的機制讓中央可以對地方多多補助地方能夠多支持中央那我們在橫憑均衡台灣在地希望的這種理念底下把不好的比較需要的把它提升起來那比較好的我們暫時能夠維持現在的發展能力就好這樣子才能夠把台灣整個提升上來這是我們的想法"},{"start":24871.107,"end":24899.557,"text":"是在這邊我們也是期待我們的內閣的我們的所有的部會首長不要因為這個立委會拍桌子會大聲就拖累到錢這是不合理的啦不可能不可能啦這要大聲講出來我們的北省都會支持啦那最後我想不一定要出力啦是我們是我們在地方建設上面我們共同來努力來打拼啦那我想最後一個針對這個覆議案如果不受支持那我們"},{"start":24900.297,"end":24902.518,"text":"謝謝徐副委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的說明"},{"start":24929.42,"end":24956.162,"text":"接下來,我們請登記第19號,游浩委員發言。謝謝,謝謝院長。來,有請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長說明。游委員好。卓院長好。"},{"start":24957.956,"end":24981.828,"text":"延續剛才今天許多委員所提到的一些內容那我相信沒有人可以超越憲法但是同樣的憲法以民為本也沒有人可以超越憲法保障的民意那其實像今天的許多的立委除了在探討這覆議案之外也有提到地方的裁劃法的部分那我相信其實現在各縣市"},{"start":24982.883,"end":25006.954,"text":"確實是需要還合理的一個預算分配包括在南投縣農業縣也確實需要合理的一個經費的分配不一定是中央能夠全力把抓許多的政策要跟地方政府有一個充分的互動那才能夠讓中央地方一起發展那這樣子才是民主政治底下的一個福氣所以說在支持的這個"},{"start":25008.064,"end":25020.178,"text":"財化法的部分也希望行政院能夠儘速提出版本,還能夠照顧像南投農業縣的一個財政需求,還讓許多的政策不管是中央地方都能夠推行。"},{"start":25021.997,"end":25041.994,"text":"接著我們這個覆議案的這個探討之前像今天本席聽到了一個蠻有趣的新聞林佑昌他今天上節目的時候說當家不要鬧事那其實在這裡簡單講他所提的是國民黨跟民眾黨當家不要鬧事但是其實我們知道"},{"start":25042.654,"end":25071.303,"text":"就是目前的執政是民進黨執政但是沒有關係因為像今天院長所接受的質詢各有兩樣情那有的說他貼上標籤叫破權那事實上我們是希望還權於民那因為其實許多委員在過去在委員會還探討的時候也都有提到包括顧立雄委員包括柯總召所提到的一些國會的改革法案"},{"start":25071.923,"end":25101.103,"text":"其實民進黨過去也曾有版本那針對立法院三讀法案依據中華民國《憲法》則條文第三條第二項第二款的規定行政院對立法院決議之法律案預算案條約案如有自愛難行得金總統核可的決議案收打行政院十日之內,以請立法院來做覆議所以今天這個程序上是依法依慣例沒有錯但是在民主國家中遵循遊戲規則很重要否則就如同捍衛任務定義的名句中沒有規則就如同動物沒什麼兩樣"},{"start":25102.103,"end":25102.223,"text":"記者記者好"},{"start":25131.864,"end":25149.193,"text":"那所以本席善意提醒院長在這個製造衝突沒有辦法做一個朝野來去對話和諧的過程中其實討厭民進黨的過程也同時在發生那今天附議的是國會改革法案中的立法院職權行使法及憲法針對的表示國會最髒"},{"start":25150.373,"end":25173.055,"text":"基本上這些都是在立法院進行民主檢出程序規則。行政院如果覺得自愛難行的話,那難道這個指的是什麼?官員不得說謊,不得隱匿事實,讓民眾有知的權利。不知道是哪一點侵犯了行政權、司法權以及監督權?難道學會說謊是必須要的政府官員學分嗎?"},{"start":25174.036,"end":25200.092,"text":"那所以說,國會為什麼要改革?那今天來講,國會改革是大家的共識,是屬於還權於民。從過去民進黨的八年的完全執政,其實就可以清楚的知道,在這次新一屆的立法院,民進黨不如不在多數,但是很多時候啊,我們要比照一下是不是濁是精非啊。那在這裡本席也直接引述一下,勞動部長何佩珊,何部長。"},{"start":25201.133,"end":25213.863,"text":"還有那時候在初期改造國會終結亂象研討會中曾經提到一段話他提到行政及立法的失衡現象在2008年馬英九執政時期因為國民黨坐擁多數更顯嚴重"},{"start":25215.117,"end":25236.295,"text":"民主監督機制以漸漸失靈,造成兩權雙輸,尤其在總統兼任黨主席,極容易造成憲政體制混亂。因限制此現象,套用過去民進黨的八年執政,毫無違和之處。行政院的覆議案並不是自愛難行,而是直接影響了賴清德民進黨黨主席的獨裁權力。"},{"start":25237.256,"end":25266.753,"text":"那所以這段話也部長在同樣的在今日來講也一樣可以讓賴清哲主席來做參考那舊教院長國會改革已經提了那麼多請問哪一個修法是擴權?又在現在的一個民主制度下除了立法院是人民職權的憲政機關代表人民代表民意來監督權力是應該還權於民難道院長你認為說人民不配擁有監督行政的權利嗎?"},{"start":25268.445,"end":25283.218,"text":"國務委員,我想您應該同意,現在執政黨是民主進步黨,但是在國會裡面當家的是國民黨,是韓國瑜院長。所以當家不鬧事,我們有共同的責任,共同的責任,議事要進行。"},{"start":25284.451,"end":25305.665,"text":"但是在這裡還是要再跟院長提一下並沒有任何人會覺得在民主審查在立法院的一個過程之中有需要去動員群眾有需要在立法院裡面來進行這種衝突其實這個過程是可以好好的來溝通尤其是這些過去的主張也都是民進黨過去的立委曾經提出過行政院沒有動員群眾"},{"start":25306.946,"end":25319.222,"text":"其實沒有動議,但是民進黨有。這就是主觀上的認知。我剛剛委員一再詢問說哪些地方是自愛難行。早上到現在我已經將這個報告第二點到第六點"},{"start":25321.447,"end":25345.873,"text":"所以說今天來講我直接就已經預設你會提的答案那所以說行政院原本提出的七大複議理由就是你今天不斷的所提的你過去也擔任過立法委員跟本席一樣我們都在交通委員會待過你對立法院的議事規則是相當的熟悉所以說在這些過程中其實都有經過程序上的討論那包括林明熙政委也提到這頁的條文他質疑有問題"},{"start":25346.733,"end":25367.362,"text":"但是從立法院的委員會協商到二三讀,通通都有經過這個過程。那他一直強調沒有實質討論,但事實上這個討論來講是一直都持續的進行的。難道過去民進黨的這八年期間,完全執政的時候,每一個案子都有經過所謂的他林明希所講的實質討論嗎?都有經過一二三讀嗎?都有經過委員會審查嗎?還有經過復議期甚至一個月的冷凍期嗎?"},{"start":25373.168,"end":25401.23,"text":"委員的講法是一舉推翻了過去立法院所有的法案今天早上包括吳思耀委員包括鍾嘉斌委員也都說了很多我想委員如果可以去回頭看一下他們對於整個審查過程所舉出來的裡面不當的行為不當的審查的結果你就會知道我直接跟院長來直接跟你說這個不是推翻了過去所有的審查而是在於說有些話不是事實有些話是說謊造謠這個清清楚楚我直接提了"},{"start":25401.91,"end":25417.892,"text":"當初郭國文他為了幫助陳水扁的國務基要會出罪話他張昭偉十幾分鐘內就把條文送出以利益修惡法修法的時候一分鐘就送出那這個部分來講在李明希社會所提及現在行政院所主張的這些理由來講完全都可以適用"},{"start":25418.493,"end":25438.46,"text":"包括民進黨政府把公投大選脫鉤變成兩年一次搞殘公投包括在2021年12月把地方制度法為了柯建民總召的愛將林志堅找工作足足合併那這些血淋淋的例子都告訴了民進黨是可以為所欲為難道人民當家作主是錯民進黨才是人民的主嗎?"},{"start":25439.64,"end":25454.571,"text":"委員有很多現場你是不在現場場景的在勞基法修改的過程我是在行政院我們知道那個時候跟立法院有經過很多的過程我也是助理出身的所以這些過程我全程都有在看"},{"start":25455.231,"end":25480.296,"text":"所以說這些過程來講歷歷在目您也清楚你用段落的段落的一個指控這樣子只是十幾分鐘或一分鐘通過是事實沒有錯吧?早上也有委員把整個審查的過程日期都標出來我就詢問說那後面那幾天在這個議場裡面的行為難道是一個好的行為嗎?難道是一個民主的程序嗎?其實院長你自己也清楚這些過程通通都走過"},{"start":25481.056,"end":25506.773,"text":"那我舉過去的例子來講,其實你非常的清楚那是那時候民進黨完全直升下那時候審查的法案好,那再來講林明熙他提到了聽證調查的職權可以直接不以官員為例還有公司老闆、老闆娘都可以直接來做調問包括行政院的發言人陳思凱也說還可以直接要求人來聽證,要經過主席同意衝擊公司機密以東拳辣椒醬來為例這非常的扯,扯零比扯零還扯"},{"start":25507.834,"end":25520.731,"text":"立法院有言論免責權,難道行政官員說話都不用負責嗎?可以睜眼說瞎話嗎?所以可以直接這樣子說謊或造謠嗎?所以說這就是國會改革的原因啊!這不是幾個委員來認定,這個是社會大眾來看。今天來講,"},{"start":25526.778,"end":25527.499,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":25547.5,"end":25548.44,"text":"報告全院委員會 現在我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":25577.466,"end":25577.927,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":26161.22,"end":26161.32,"text":"主席"},{"start":26202.728,"end":26228.086,"text":"報告全院委員會 我們現在繼續開會 接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言好 謝謝主席 尤其請卓院長麻煩請卓院長說明"},{"start":26238.018,"end":26260.51,"text":"法律的制定是要扶國利民,不是禍國殃民。法律的制定是要保護人民,而不是傷害人民、威脅人民。法律是要解決問題,不是製造問題。當然一個立法院通過的法律,讓人家覺得是禍國殃民、傷害人民、製造很多社會問題、國家問題,當然就是一個毀憲亂政的法案。"},{"start":26264.105,"end":26289.265,"text":"當然行政院有這個責任要提出覆議您同意嗎?完全支持委員的講法我們也是基於這個責任來提出覆議的國會議員的權利是來自憲法跟人民我們依照憲法所賦予的國會委員職責去執行各項的這個立法院的職權包括預算審查包括這個這個議決法律案重大國家重大事項的議決案"},{"start":26291.462,"end":26312.933,"text":"不僅權力來自於這個憲法也來自於人民因為我們是人民選出來的所以我們要對憲法負責也要對人民負責一個違憲的法案所得到的權力就是違憲的權力違憲的權力只會造成更多國家的危機憲政危機如果你的這個"},{"start":26315.081,"end":26339.167,"text":"權力得不到人民的認可得不到人民的同意當然一定會受到民意的唾棄所以這邊也要呼籲藍白兩黨的這個國會議員懸崖勒馬在後天站在台灣人民這一邊站在維護憲法秩序的這一邊看整個立法的過程憲法第63條規定"},{"start":26341.343,"end":26369.997,"text":"立法院有異決國家法律案異決異決是先異後決嘛整個過程中啊大家看到從4月份開始排審排審在委員會、在軍務公聽會然後呢在經過朝野協商、在院長協商一直到二三讀都沒有完整的討論這個程序所以異就是要討論所有國會議員在每一個程序都要充分的參與"},{"start":26372.241,"end":26395.381,"text":"非常遺憾整個過程沒有讓所有的會議員來充分表達意見不管代表選區還是代表這個人民的意志都沒有讓我們針對整個法案提出完整的我們看法就在二讀之後每一個人輪流分配到一次發言發言一次之後立刻怎麼樣立刻停止討論這怎麼是討論呢"},{"start":26399.244,"end":26424.622,"text":"這是強行用多數暴力憲法精神不是要保護少數尊重少數嗎所以我每一條我都去登記發言結果惡毒的時候才讓我發言一次我怎麼樣對人民交代我怎麼樣對憲法交代所以對於這種整個立法的過程已經違反憲法第63條的規定當然就是一個違憲的法案"},{"start":26429.172,"end":26454.537,"text":"好那當然我們看到這個整個法案通過的內容這個包括立法院職權行使第47條包括第48條等等只要跟人民有相關的我要請教今天列席的跟人民有相關不管是你在這個質詢權或者是調閱文化權或者是行使這個聽證權"},{"start":26458.724,"end":26474.137,"text":"會因此受到這個國家的權力的傷害威脅的人民相關的團體我想邀請國防部顧部長內政部說明內政部劉部長請說明經濟部郭部長經濟部郭部長請說明稅務財政部莊部長也請你列席跟農業會相關的農業部部長"},{"start":26487.997,"end":26517.042,"text":"從五月二十八號從五月二十八號三途通過之後舉國華藍各行各業都可能受到這個違憲亂政法案的影響各位部長你們所管的業務我們按照第四十七條第一項第二項的規定政府機關部隊部隊就是國防部法人包括宗教法人、社團法人之內政部"},{"start":26518.166,"end":26533.802,"text":"還有社會上有關係的人包括稅務人員、會計師這些也都是還有農漁會的相關組織還有包括產業界、科技界的聲音首先我想請教一下國防部副部長"},{"start":26535.134,"end":26556.392,"text":"如果按照相關規定,你不管是文件調閱,或者是質詢的時候,或者是聽證權,你如果違反相關的規定,你就必須刻意這個罰款,這個在基層我們的部隊,我們的士官兵,他們的反應如何呢?"},{"start":26557.472,"end":26574.437,"text":"跟委員報告稍微給我一點時間就是說按照585號的解釋立法院調查權行使它只是一個輔助性的權利為了它憲法上的職權所以585號解釋也說調查權所得調查的對象並不是毫無限制"},{"start":26575.197,"end":26604.497,"text":"那他現在要擴及到這個國防部以下的各部隊那事實上針對面對立法院要負責的是國防部部本身那接受質詢的義務那所以如果要相關的調查的行使那當然應該要由國防部核定之後部隊如果是八軍團他可以直接叫八軍團指揮官來嗎他的部隊我們現在的部隊不是你講八軍團還是大部隊的那你隨便一個守備大部隊那他如果去判斷"},{"start":26605.217,"end":26627.992,"text":"他應該要本於他自己的職責所要保守的一個相關的行政特權上面賦予的一個機密或者是相關的國防或軍事的機密他如何做一個判斷當然要叫到國防部來做判斷那他現在直接可以下到我國防部局下的上千個單位的部隊去要求那任何一個小小的部隊"},{"start":26629.153,"end":26631.996,"text":"所以所有的基層士官兵、報將官士官都會受到影響,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":26655.084,"end":26681.137,"text":"我認為是絕對這樣的部隊如果他可以直接跟部隊要的話這個會影響到整個部隊怎麼去保國衛民怎麼去打仗呢怎麼去抄野訓練沒有辦法能夠抗拒在的情況之下他沒有辦法做一個合理的判斷的情況之下他會嚴重的侵害到相關可能的機密資訊不只是部隊啦內政部"},{"start":26682.011,"end":26685.227,"text":"宗教團體包括社團法人、國論社"},{"start":26687.295,"end":26712.372,"text":"紅紀議會、獅子會也會有類似的問題我想請教內政部的部長基層反應如何呢?根據憲法十四條還有我們認為符合國際人權公約其實團體治理是政府要低度管理而且高度尊重他們的團體治理所以在內政部現在所轄管的這些人民團體跟合作社大概有兩萬五千零九十二個包括委員所提到的像獅子會、符輪社、宗教團體"},{"start":26713.172,"end":26737.599,"text":"那事實上呢我在這兩天啊這個我們宗教團體有的人就直接講說阿那也阿捏我們為什麼要去立法院以後和尚大師傅祖師都可能來這邊接受詢問的譬如他們是佛寺團體或者是佛教協會那如果有問題的話變成我們要請他們過來到立法院接受立法委員的調查我想這非常不符合我們憲法還有不符合我們國際人權公約上面對於人民團體節省值的尊重"},{"start":26739.72,"end":26740.901,"text":"經濟部主管產業跟科技科技業跟產業界對這個毀線亂聖的惡法反應如何?"},{"start":26761.536,"end":26783.749,"text":"科技界應該是非常的恐懼,因為我們有很多生產的機密,或者研發的機密,所以我們有一些也不能夠科技的這些內容洩漏到國外去。產業界憂心重重,不管是科技業、傳統產業還是高科技。"},{"start":26786.817,"end":26812.014,"text":"我表示非常憂慮,對不對?對,因為智慧財產權的問題,所以大家會滿擔心的好,另外基層農漁會,農民農民有沒有可能被調來問?漁民有沒有可能按照你相關的規定,相關人員,社會上有關係的人員?我跟委員我跟委員我跟委員我跟委員我跟委員我跟委員"},{"start":26815.267,"end":26815.887,"text":"所以百工百業各行各業"},{"start":26842.198,"end":26846.62,"text":"謝謝邱志偉委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的說明"},{"start":26870.738,"end":26884.112,"text":"現在接下來我們請登記第21號徐玉珍委員請發言謝謝主席請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長說明"},{"start":26894.219,"end":26912.214,"text":"委員好主委長好我想主委長剛剛我想您今天一整天在立法院備詢那我剛剛也坐在那邊也聽了一些委員的發言我發覺其實有些委員可能對於我們這一次的這個立法院職權行使法的修正條文並沒有真正去了解"},{"start":26913.054,"end":26933.729,"text":"提出了一些擴權、毀憲、亂政,而且在恐嚇人民。我覺得這樣是相當不可取的,其實很多的條文制定一定有它的目的,那如果有什麼樣的疑問大家可以提出來討論,那不需要用這樣的方式一直在恐嚇人民。那我想請教一下院長,這次針對《立法院職權行使法》提出復議,"},{"start":26934.95,"end":26956.869,"text":"而且我們聽到到處都在宣揚說這個是立法院的這個擴權但本席想要告訴院長其實部分的立法委員其實在民進黨執政下已經自我閹割了八年那今年改選之後還是一樣繼續的閹割自己主任長知道請問立法委員對行政院長的這種質詢的時間是多久"},{"start":26959.775,"end":26969.48,"text":"一個委員30分鐘一個委員是30分鐘這是根據《立法院職權行使法》第19條的規定那請問院長民進黨委員對您質詢的時間是幾分鐘他們願意縮減時間有的都用到15分鐘有的還是維持30分鐘"},{"start":26978.865,"end":26978.985,"text":"民進黨委員"},{"start":26999.572,"end":27027.239,"text":"的政府不出聲就算了而且還處處的主導這個在野黨提出調約小組的提案比如說黑箱採購高端疫苗小吃店可以進口快篩這個標政府的弊案標政府的標案50萬的資本額的超私公司可以超這個跳過採購程序買了八千多萬顆的雞蛋還有錯誤的能源政策這些國民黨都曾經提出質疑跟要求調查但是這對民進黨一再的阻擋喔"},{"start":27027.819,"end":27045.067,"text":"其實這也是我們為什麼要推動改革的主要原因那既然大家一直提到說立法院這樣擴權是危險我想請教一下左院長今天早上賴總統有開了一個記者會提出他在總統府設置三個委員會"},{"start":27046.548,"end":27072.722,"text":"分別是國家氣候邊遷對策委員會全社會防衛任性委員會健康臺灣推動委員會但是依據中華民國的總統組織法並沒有賦予總統可以設置委員會因為在民國99年的時候馬英九總統也曾經提過要修法增訂第14條之二賦予總統成立委員會的法源但是被民進黨否決"},{"start":27073.562,"end":27079.613,"text":"導致今天賴總統成立的三個委員會其實並沒有法源基礎請問這樣算不算違憲?算不算擴權?"},{"start":27082.179,"end":27100.396,"text":"首先跟委員報告,民進黨的委員用15分鐘不是放棄,而是他們用其他的方式提出他們對國家的大政方針的建議或是地方建設的要求,一樣可以達到目的。我也希望委員可以用同樣的方式,我們也可以一同來為地方發展。你剛剛說到那個超私啦,那個蛋啦,它確實是有司法機關在調查。"},{"start":27108.399,"end":27126.607,"text":"司法機關已經扮演他應該有的角色,所以應該這個就歸屬司法權調查。我們非常期望司法機關會有一個很好的調查的結果。再來總統成立的三個委員會,我們事前都有經過密的討論,我也會成立另外一個委員會,叫經濟發展諮詢委員會。這是一個不分黨派大型的諮詢委員會議。"},{"start":27132.449,"end":27150.615,"text":"可以收集各方的意見,讓對於環境、對於健康、對於韌性防衛,也是對於立法院行政未來會成立的經濟發展提出更多的意見。我覺得院長也希望您用同樣的標準來面對我們這次修法的這個立法院職權行使法。"},{"start":27151.235,"end":27153.437,"text":"國會改革修法的過程有經過一次的專報、三次的公聽會,還有經過這麼多次的"},{"start":27172.27,"end":27198.199,"text":"委員會的審查條文或者是草野協商還有院長也召開三次的草野協商而且公聽會總共邀請了49位的學者怎麼會說沒有討論呢?這樣的討論還不夠多嗎?那而且我們在這個我們可以緩關一下立法院在第九屆審理前瞻特別條例的時候在委員會審查時這個國民黨的立委一直要求要討論有意義但民進黨的召委也裝作"},{"start":27198.979,"end":27216.438,"text":"沒聽見不理會當時民進黨不理會少數連尊重都談不上那現在呢就這樣通過了這個當時就這樣通過了前瞻條例可是現在早上我聽院長的報告說希望多數能夠尊重少數那當時為什麼不尊重少數呢"},{"start":27217.902,"end":27239.355,"text":"行政院的標準真的是雙標這個表格今天已經看過好幾次了顯然是大家一同做一個表格我一再提出三場公聽會三場公聽會早上我故意不講我是要讓委員自己說出來兩場民進黨的公聽會民進黨主持的公聽會是在討論被你們封殺的民進黨的版本"},{"start":27240.965,"end":27267.906,"text":"這次通過的版本其實有有二十幾條都是民進黨的版本我們並沒有封殺版本所以請院長院長這個部分要了解清楚我們絕對不是這樣的一個方式那另外再請教卓院長請問貴院的這個附議函中的說明二指出行政院依法行政法律案違反憲法對於行政院而言有治案難行之處請問院長"},{"start":27269.767,"end":27276.01,"text":"行政院是依據中華民國憲法的哪一條規定可以解釋憲法?我現在要請教院長的是,行政院可以解釋憲法嗎?"},{"start":27297.006,"end":27324.406,"text":"這不應該是司法院在解釋憲法所以說在這個條文提出覆議的其中一條寫說這個是違憲那司法院都還沒有解釋違憲為什麼行政院就可以說是違憲所以我想在行政院的覆議案中已經扣立法院這個這個我們的違憲的一個大帽子了已經僭越司法權的職權了所以院長您現在還兼司法院長嗎我們將來還有司法的就 憲法的救濟"},{"start":27325.086,"end":27340.222,"text":"另外再請教您一下既然我們要談到憲法我想請教您幾個憲法層次的問題根據中華民國憲法增修條文前言會因應國家統一前的需要依照憲法第27條第一項第三款跟第174條第一款的規定"},{"start":27342.264,"end":27365.082,"text":"徵修本憲法條文那憲法徵修條文十一條也規定自由地區跟大陸地區間人民權利的義務關係跟其他事務的處理得以法律為特別的規定也就是兩岸人民關係條例請問院長何謂國家統一前何謂自由地區與大陸地區我知道我原來講的是大陸跟台灣都是中華民國那院長你認為呢你認為呢我認為"},{"start":27370.779,"end":27373.742,"text":"中華民國有分自由地區跟大陸地區這是我們憲法的規定我想您身為中華民國的行政院長應該不會否認這樣子的"},{"start":27392.95,"end":27419.958,"text":"中華民國目前的治權只及於台澎金馬所以說賴總統所說的兩岸互不隸屬您認為是兩岸互不隸屬還是兩國互不隸屬是中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬所以說這個就是指說一個中國各自表述的意思嗎這不是哪有一個中國的問題這是中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬所以您的意思是兩國互不隸屬的意思嗎中華民國就是主權獨立的國家"},{"start":27422.569,"end":27434.68,"text":"中華民國是主權獨立的國家所以說我們就包含了自由地區跟大陸地區這不就是我們憲法裡面規定的嗎我從來不認為當初是從臺北飛到大陸去是從中華民國飛到中華民國不是吧"},{"start":27437.722,"end":27455.833,"text":"請問你從臺北飛到高雄,你從臺北飛到澎湖,這樣不是也是中華民國飛到中華民國啊?委員飛過去大陸的是從中華民國飛到中華民國嗎?不是啊那請問一下,我就剛剛跟請教你啊,我從臺北飛到桃園,我飛到這個我們澎湖,這樣算不算是中華民國飛到中華民國?當然是"},{"start":27456.954,"end":27483.062,"text":"所以我想院長這個部分也要再就教於您就是好這次提到的就是說您的附議的韓文中有提到說這個舉手表決那其實我想對於舉手表決來說針對立法院的議事規則第35條規定總共有五項的表決第二項就是舉手表決院長您當過這個立法委員您應該知道立法院議事規則第35條有規定"},{"start":27484.702,"end":27485.082,"text":"謝謝徐議貞委員的發言也謝謝左院長的說明"},{"start":27513.137,"end":27514.66,"text":"接下來我們請登記第22號陳樹岳委員發言"},{"start":27541.751,"end":27541.931,"text":"主席"},{"start":27554.298,"end":27573.727,"text":"主任長午安辛苦了這一次行政院就是針對藍白強推的這個國會擴全法案來提出這個復議那目前就是有這個臺灣民意基金會做了這個民意的調查有高達五成二的民眾支持我們行政院提出復議這個院長有注意到這個訊息嗎"},{"start":27579.64,"end":27595.706,"text":"事實上在這一次的立法院職權行使法跟刑法的在院會表決的過程因為不是討論沒有討論就是在直接表決的過程這個四天裡面從第一天的5月17號5月21號5月24號5月28號都有公民自主的來立法院外來聲援跟關心人數從"},{"start":27605.51,"end":27621.157,"text":"近千人到三萬、十萬、七萬這麼多的人數院長您知道這些不分老中青的公民來到立法院外來聲援你知道是什麼原因驅使他們站出來嗎"},{"start":27623.394,"end":27644.643,"text":"來到這裡的立法院外面的這些朋友們應該是認為自己在國家裡面基本的人權受到了傷害在看到立法院在整個審查職權行使法的過程當中他們沒有發覺符合形式上的任何正義以及很多在內容規定上是不明確的、是空洞的"},{"start":27645.143,"end":27656.722,"text":"所以也對於憲法的一個捍衛的精神所以他們願意挺身而出像現在我們都不知道外面是否在下雨但他們還是在吶喊我覺得我們應該努力讓他們不必這麼辛苦"},{"start":27657.182,"end":27679.06,"text":"是的,事實上在這四天的院會的表決的過程當中這麼多的青鳥來到立法院外來聲援那這個實例也有做了一份的這個民調事實上來到這個院外的這些青鳥朋友有高達92.6%他們是認為這個法案的審查程序不合理"},{"start":27680.081,"end":27706.494,"text":"所以有害民主他們認為沒有討論不是民主所以他們站出來但我們看到更感動的是在這個過程當中有一個應該是國中的男生他從台中下課趕過來他舉一個海報說他這個下課來到青島東他怕台灣的民主下課了所以讓我們看了真的非常的感動所以在這幾次的這些青鳥朋友們"},{"start":27707.054,"end":27707.074,"text":"委員長"},{"start":27731.244,"end":27740.933,"text":"對的 我希望大家 正如我說的 大家都有民主的DNA為國家的更進步 應該有一個更好的法案所以希望能夠用覆議的方式 讓大院重新審視內容"},{"start":27742.715,"end":27761.872,"text":"事實上今天從早到現在也是很多藍白的委員一直在說這個過程有討論有公聽會剛剛有委員說有三次的公聽會有學者這個不是討論嗎他真的搞錯了因為公聽會是要徵詢專家學者的意見"},{"start":27763.112,"end":27765.133,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":27792.364,"end":27815.985,"text":"招委排審的這個會議的時候他們在質詢完進入主條的時候他們就是全部都保留沒有讓我們主條的討論全部保留要送院會來協商到院會也沒有實質的一個協商所以這就沒有實質的討論啊所以這一點很多的中學生小學生都看得很清楚了"},{"start":27816.885,"end":27840.278,"text":"我們很遺憾就是說有的藍白的委員到現在還在自己在欺騙自己那包括在我們民進黨的委員這個專家兵召委排審的這個會議藍白委員竟然用強行表決的方式來散會把我們民進黨的一個法案全部都打包了這個真的是非常的阿拔的行為"},{"start":27841.418,"end":27867.578,"text":"所以這樣子的一個作為跟過程真的是讓很多的青年朋友很多的公民看不下去了所以他們才會自己自動自發的來到立法院外來關心因為這個民主真的是得來不易我們也希望就是這個民主不僅是我們現在這一代人享有我們也希望讓我們的下一代世世代代都能夠享有這樣子的一個民主的成果"},{"start":27868.439,"end":27889.093,"text":"所以在這次的這樣子的一個輕描的行動裡面審查程序的不合理包括這個黑箱在這個條文就是他不僅把我們民進黨的法案改革的內容就是打包之外他們甚至在5月17號要開這個院會的前一天晚上"},{"start":27890.407,"end":27906.572,"text":"王國昌自己接受這個記者的訪問的時候他自己也很明白的說這個動議的內容是他跟翁小林委員直接討論的那這個記者問他內容的時候他甚至也說這是最高機密所以他自己明白的都說是最高機密的"},{"start":27907.711,"end":27925.162,"text":"難道這不是黑箱嗎?所以我們講的都是一個事實的一個過程跟陳述所以我們不是在造謠那我想這個民眾自己都看在眼裡也自有公平所以在這一次藍白強推的這一個國會的擴全法案"},{"start":27925.942,"end":27932.406,"text":"實際上是假改革增擴權,因為其中有很重要的幾點,一個就是侵犯了我們人民的基本的人權,"},{"start":27945.194,"end":27966.372,"text":"在這個調查選的行使上面他要求說政府機關部隊法人團體或社會上有關係的人員就是只要有調查的需求他就必須在5日內提供相關的文件等等要來提供那如果不提供的話甚至就是會被處以這個罰款一直到改正為止"},{"start":27967.092,"end":27987.021,"text":"所以這樣子的話真的就是侵犯到人民的基本權利了那甚至說在這個人民出席調查聽證的時候要請律師進來還要主席的一個同意我想這個都是非常嚴重的去侵犯到人民的一個基本人權了那再來就是侵犯這個行政權的一個部分"},{"start":27988.191,"end":28015.925,"text":"在這次的這個改革的法案裡面就是他有提到這個增訂了不得反質詢就是針對官員的部分不得反質詢還有不得虛偽陳述不得有這個藐視國會等等可是就這個部分何謂反質詢何謂藐視國會連他們自己的昭偉吳宗憲都沒有辦法清楚的定義所以他要叫如何叫這個官員來遵守這樣子的一個法令呢對不對"},{"start":28017.141,"end":28044.651,"text":"這一個部分我們也要去思考我們民主國家每個人民都有這個言論的一個自由那當然民意代表可以有質詢甚至享有這個言論免責權可是官員也有權利也有這個言論的自由去捍衛他的政策跟為他的這個政策來辯護啊是不是所以說在這個部分如果這個質詢者認為官員的答覆讓他沒有面子他就認為說是反質詢"},{"start":28046.151,"end":28046.751,"text":"政府跟委員報告"},{"start":28076.488,"end":28087.296,"text":"執行、調查、聽證的這個規定當中有一個更為我內心擔心的他說接受詢問等等立法院調查的範圍擴張到"},{"start":28090.093,"end":28108.139,"text":"對相關議案或者與立法委員職權相關的事項相關議案就是今天要討論什麼這個是相關議案立法委員職權相關那包山包海所以我今天一再的要反覆的演練什麼叫做一定要在質詢的範圍中來答覆"},{"start":28109.991,"end":28110.631,"text":"所以我們基於捍衛這個人民的人權"},{"start":28134.802,"end":28138.244,"text":"反倒過來說在過去八年我們在國會改革上面我們有大幅的一個成績讓我們的國會的意識透明化那甚至在這次的國會改革"},{"start":28160.077,"end":28183.063,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":28188.687,"end":28189.809,"text":"第23張志倫委員"},{"start":28216.238,"end":28237.163,"text":"主席好各位委員各位官員大家午安大家好先跟院長報告因為我今天身體有點不適所以有點失聲所以等一下在詢問的時候可能聲音會有時候高高低低的請院長允許我還是繼續來做質詢好那我們是不是請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長說明"},{"start":28246.073,"end":28260.925,"text":"張委員好 委員都保重好 謝謝院長第一次見到院長很榮幸看到院長也很覺得說第一次見面用這樣的形式跟你見到面首先要對你表示肯定因為非常辛苦"},{"start":28261.925,"end":28287.794,"text":"這個禮拜二、三、四、五每天都要坐在、站在這邊接受質詢。這個馬拉松希望你可以保重身體。不過今天主要講的還是國會改革的這個討論。首先還是要跟院長分享跟院長說明這個賴清德總統自從當了總統以後他是第一位沒有跟這個在野黨的主席來去做溝通的院長。"},{"start":28288.954,"end":28312.414,"text":"所以大家都知道蔡英文執政八年我們都擔心完全執政完全腐敗那絕對的權利也是絕對的腐敗所以我們認為國會改革非常重要尤其國會改革無法裡面有關於這個調查權跟聽證權的部分我們認為相當的重要所以當然院長你可以非常清楚在5月17號四次的院會裡面這個"},{"start":28314.836,"end":28337.664,"text":"開了四次的院會第一天在立法院的時候國民黨黨團我們大家群起為了要維護議事的和諧我們保護這個議事的和諧保護韓院長保護我們敬愛的這個周萬來秘書長那也看到了這個民進黨的委員群起而攻所以不僅我們辛苦的韓院長在第一次發聲有院長有立法院院長"},{"start":28338.524,"end":28366.303,"text":"被這個在立法院的時候被限制在房間裡面不能出來也看到第一次我們有行政人員我們的行政中外的秘書長被搶奪文件然後被進行這個攻擊的狀況後來還在冰敷我相信也是國人所不知道的那我也跟院長卓院長報告其實國民黨如果你是國民黨的行政院長我相信你可能很難在這邊站著很輕鬆的來回答的質詢的問題"},{"start":28367.924,"end":28392.409,"text":"那可是我要跟院長報告其實國民黨就是理性務實以及團結的政黨所以這邊要跟院長請益就是說本席對於這個立法院的這個調查權跟聽證權非常的重視以及國人在過去蔡英文執政的時候不需要很多的弊案繼續延續到我們的這個賴清德尤其是院長你的執政任期"},{"start":28393.129,"end":28418.923,"text":"所以我們民眾非常要知道的是我們一直在關心的查口罩查快篩疫苗查雞蛋以及查光電那我看到我們的劉部長已經上了他應該知道我在問什麼我有默契所以我們要查的連最近在查數位身份證的時候我們都會發現有診測反黑的狀況所以我們是不是請我們的同仁播一下影片我現在院長有看過這個影片"},{"start":28425.899,"end":28442.572,"text":"好,可以看到這15秒的影片這個數位身份證我簡單跟卓院長報告這個數位身份證是賴清德當時當院長的時候預算是將近42億然後後來在蘇貞昌院長的時候就決定停止"},{"start":28443.032,"end":28459.958,"text":"花了人民已經十三億的納稅錢當然立法委員要行使這個我們在內政委員會有行使一個調閱小組在查資料的時候就發現有這一大本將近一天多月的這個都是黑畫面所以我跟院長分享就是說其實我們都很認真努力"},{"start":28460.658,"end":28481.903,"text":"因為我個人我本身過去一直擔任會計師的工作,所以我特別帶了一個計算機啊,帶計算機去裡面,想不到你居然破我的工,我的計算機沒辦法對付我,全業都是黑的文件。所以請部長、院長可不可以跟我分享一下,看到這本黑的文件的時候,請問院長你自己本身是不是有嚇一跳?"},{"start":28482.642,"end":28505.763,"text":"早上部長已經答覆過了,請部長再答覆一次是,我想張委員你也是調閱小組的成員在兩次的由高金昭委來主持的時候特別有提到有關招標文件跟合約書涉及商業機密部分可以塗黑遮蔽那你看到你所謂不曉得有什麼管道出來因為按照立法委員來講職權也是調閱人員不應該隨便公佈這些資料你可以看得出來那個不是公文"},{"start":28506.223,"end":28529.916,"text":"那個就是服務建議書那所謂的服務建議書就是可能你很在乎的包括裡面的晶片或是服務建議那就是涉及商業機密那也就是高金昭偉所提到的部分所以呢我們在內政部或是工程或是行政院應該提供的內部的公文資料我們全部提供以內政部來講我們提供了87份五大卷的文件這些都全部提供了"},{"start":28530.316,"end":28553.806,"text":"所以非常清楚的跟各位報告我們是依據這個立法院裡面在成立這個調閱小組或者是我們的資訊公開法還有各支法所提供的資料那您再給我30秒鐘那有關於這個這是中央印製廠跟相關的服務建議書的廠商他們所提的服務建議書那裡面全部有遮蔽的部分到後來有部分遮蔽我們也做了若干的改進"},{"start":28555.027,"end":28582.466,"text":"謝謝部長,其實部長的解釋非常的詳細,其實我在委員會有執行過,其實這不是你的爛攤子,其實你也不用護航的這麼嚴重,其實這個的原因,全部反黑的原因,其實我認為就是執政過久的一個問題,其實這裡面代表了幾個現象,第一個,可能就是廠商對行政院的不尊重,第二個,有可能是上級長官對立法院的不尊重,"},{"start":28583.246,"end":28602.806,"text":"那我也跟這個部長報告一下其實當時我們在開這個調查小組委員會的時候我不好意思講的是司長當時就已經跟我們講說裡面沒有機密文件所以那時候這裡面的文件沒有機密那現在部長知道現在這些資料又還原了嗎?"},{"start":28604.272,"end":28630.578,"text":"跟委員報告我們的代理師長確實是提到我們內政部內部的公文是沒有機密所以我們全部提供但是在附件資料裡面的招標文件跟技術的服務建議書確實涉及到廠商他自己本身的商業機密的話我們也是依法有據請他來做這個處理所以我要跟部長報告為什麼會還原跟院長報告為什麼會還原就是民意的力量"},{"start":28631.238,"end":28657.254,"text":"就是因為我們開了記者會了以後所以資料就還原了所以這就是我們認為最不能接受的點就是說如果我們今天沒有開記者會我們沒有把這東西訴諸於大眾的時候其實廠商他也不知道要怎麼做怎麼會有的文件一下子全部反黑又一下子全部都可以揭露出來這兩邊狀況是讓人民非常不能接受的所以我還要跟院長報告"},{"start":28658.675,"end":28683.205,"text":"可是當有些廠商已經願意全部公佈資料的時候有一家公司目前還是不願意公佈資料而且內政部當時因為太早做決定了還發了一個公文說不能公佈資料就是國際顧問管理公司到現在還沒有公佈資料那一個我請問一個13頁的標案已經畫了13頁的標案13頁標案的廠商都願意全部公佈資料了"},{"start":28684.546,"end":28707.864,"text":"國據他是我們邀請的第三方公正單位只花了五百萬結果他說他的資料不公佈所以這就是我要跟這個院長跟部長講的有一些廠商公佈資料有一些廠商不公佈資料所以這樣才會認為讓廠商對行政官員不尊重而且讓辛苦的基層公務人員無所適從啊這樣你說明會讓民眾認為當天所有委員拿到的都是這一本"},{"start":28711.867,"end":28733.078,"text":"其實其中一份的附件而已他有五大卷87份的資料裡面規範的很多他的技術上的規範不可以公開然後有其他的頁面是因為這個我們基層公務員覺得太辛苦反黑一千多頁太辛苦了所以其他的文件好幾大冊全部只有提供目錄"},{"start":28733.578,"end":28756.224,"text":"好所以這件事情我只是要希望說這個未來院長跟部長這個部分一定要好好來尊重這個立法院行使這個職權的這個權利第二個我要來跟院長請議啊就是說我希望院長要保持行政中立我相信你一直保持行政中立可是我相信一直有人在干預你沒有"},{"start":28756.804,"end":28777.748,"text":"這一次國會改革行政院提出覆議的時候院會是禮拜四開會結果你們馬上火速把資料送給總統府請問為什麼總統府要拖到禮拜二上午核定下午才把資料送來立法院這是不是有很明顯的拖時間所以原本我們這覆議案投票其實禮拜三程序委員會結束禮拜五"},{"start":28780.569,"end":28793.059,"text":"一讀院會報告完畢後其實昨天禮拜二就可以來表決了結果居然要等到這禮拜五結果我們這麼多的行政官員住在這邊請問這些行政官員來為國會改革復議來背書是他們的選擇嗎?"},{"start":28797.603,"end":28806.529,"text":"所以我院長我先來幫你做一件事情我是請學友行政官員我請學友行政官員來問一下因為我覺得國會改革復議行政要提來就兩個重點第一個就是認為違憲嘛違憲由大法官來去決定就好了"},{"start":28816.636,"end":28841.195,"text":"第2個覺得行政院自愛難行現在在場這麼多的行政官員我是不是可以請院長幫忙是不是請行政院官員我來詢問一下民意基礎來詢問一下有沒有各位部會首長覺得如果國會改革聽證權跟調查權公布出來以後各位行政首長如果認為說會被我們聽證員調查權覺得內心會擔心害怕或是有疑慮有風險的可不可以舉個手"},{"start":28842.045,"end":28843.627,"text":"謝謝張志倫委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的說明接下來我們請登記第24位省發會委員發言"},{"start":28888.551,"end":28892.314,"text":"主席我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長說明政委員好卓院長好辛苦啦不會應該的這個我說你辛苦了不是因為說你站一整天"},{"start":28909.52,"end":28937.422,"text":"而是因為說你這個就在你剛剛才就任就要面對這樣子的一個法案要針對是否提出復議這樣子做我相信這個因為復議這個提出復議畢竟是一個重大的政治決定他寫在憲法裡面而且我們在台灣的憲政史上面其實他的次數也有很有限那我相信這個過程是相當相當艱難要決定要送復議是相當艱難"},{"start":28939.541,"end":28939.901,"text":"受益良多"},{"start":28969.062,"end":28987.135,"text":"你覺得受益楊多,我是覺得非常辛苦,非常辛苦了。你要面對這個在野黨立委顛倒是非,睜眼說瞎話你還不能夠插嘴,你還不能做說明你還要注意不能反質詢,不能被移送藐視國會罪,這實在是非常辛苦了"},{"start":28996.538,"end":29019.197,"text":"其實在我看來我相信說做這樣的決定以及今天一整天我們的討論我們都可以知道說這一次的這整個法案可以說它的違憲之處我說白一點它是肉眼可見肉眼可見就是違憲這個何須大法官對於解釋在一黨立委一直講說你是大法官嗎?行政院是大法官嗎?"},{"start":29020.508,"end":29039.14,"text":"這個當然所有對於憲法的爭議行政院當然有權認定這個法律是認為是有違憲之語所以行政院可以提出覆議覆議之後我們未來司法還有司法救濟最後的認定是由憲法法庭認定對不對這個就是一個程序那這個"},{"start":29041.96,"end":29063.548,"text":"我看齁今天一整天有一件事情我也非常在意啦齁就是在野黨立委他一直講說今天齁好像如獲至寶啦齁說這個民意調查齁說支持國會改革的齁有五成啦有五成支持國會改革啦齁那這個不只是媒體啦媒體大幅報導啦那這個在野黨立委在今天一整天的質詢也是如獲至寶一直講這個齁"},{"start":29067.253,"end":29095.39,"text":"其實我今天再去舉個例子大家就明白了齁我今天如果說立法院我今天通過一個叫做孝順父母法出去做民調說我來通過一個孝順父母法好不好不要說五成啦八成的民意我看八成以上的民意都會贊成對不對應該百分之百民法都有規定百分之百孝順父母法結果去做民調說孝順父母法大家百分之八成都同意結果一看啊孝順父母法裡面的規定內容是如果父母不吃飯你可以強迫灌食"},{"start":29097.827,"end":29124.767,"text":"今天這個法案就是這樣子啊我們掛著一個國會改革的招牌然後裡面競幹一些骯髒事情自我擴權違反憲法這就跟我剛剛講的肖徹父母沒什麼兩樣我今天如果通過一個交通安全法大家也去做民調交通安全大家也是大概百分之百但是結果去看內容如果行人違反交通規則你可以當場撞死他今天那個國會改革法案就是這樣子"},{"start":29125.998,"end":29149.91,"text":"就是掛著國會改革的招牌所以你去做民調說你贊成國會改革當然有五成人贊成國會改革五成我都覺得怎麼會這麼少應該要更多才對啊但是實際上的內容我們就要看實際上的內容對不對今天我們今天所提出復議不是針對國會改革說我認為國會改革不行我提出復議而是針對這些內容提出復議的對不對沒錯"},{"start":29154.909,"end":29175.663,"text":"今天還有一個說甚至還講說贊成這個如果有藐視國會的行為要處以苛以刑責這個贊成的民眾也有四成八今天我如果去問說立法委員在立法院裡面胡說八道顛倒是非說謊要判十年以上有期徒刑我看贊成會到九成了贊成會到九成了"},{"start":29179.413,"end":29199.272,"text":"所以這種拿這種民意調查然後來這邊沾沾自喜如獲至寶我實在覺得可笑至極了那我們今天時間有限我這樣光罵在野黨就過了一半的時間我沒有時間跟這個院長來討論我們真的實質的內容因為今天這個我們所提出覆議案有非常多的點它都是違憲的例如說"},{"start":29202.451,"end":29230.097,"text":"總統進行國情報告這個是憲法白紙黑字憲法徵修條文定的一清二楚他整個立法過程也都很清楚從過去國民黨到現在這個不只是我們憲法現行憲法連憲政原理都違背了連權力分立的憲政原理都違背了像這樣子的實在太多了但是我今天我想在最後剩下一點點的時間人民最關心的是什麼是這個法案對人民的權益有沒有侵害沒錯"},{"start":29231.479,"end":29243.465,"text":"所以我就在這整個所謂的國會擴權法案裡面大概大家最大的爭議焦點牽涉到人民的就是國會調查權對不對院長是的國會調查權齁這個其實這一黨立委一直講說全世界的國會都有調查權啊為什麼台灣到現在還沒有調查權到現在調查權還沒有為什麼我也想問為什麼啊"},{"start":29258.174,"end":29268.704,"text":"我們的憲法從1947年到今天2024年實施了77年為什麼國民黨這麼笨他在過去過去50年60年他都不給國會調查權為什麼?院長為什麼?"},{"start":29271.892,"end":29286.7,"text":"因為我們的憲法是五權憲法對不對我們把屬於外國的調查權我們有一個非常偉大的全世界都叫三權分立但是我們有一個非常偉大的孫中山他發明了五權分立他把國會裡面的調查權抽出來說這個叫做監察權我們應該要獨立出來這是他的創建"},{"start":29293.14,"end":29311.52,"text":"所以我們憲法架構就是五權憲法架構所以依照現行憲法的權力分立原則調查權其實屬於審查院對不對沒錯適合調查權是但是因為我們整個民主改革的過程國會逐漸代表他這個對民意的代表性增強了因此"},{"start":29312.366,"end":29328.129,"text":"不管是這個我們的國會改革的過程或者是甚至在大法官會議解釋裡面都贊成國會有一定程度的調查權包括我們的這個釋之325號釋之585號跟釋之729號大概這三個大法官會議解釋是對於這個國會調查權做非常清楚的解釋對有條件的那我們今天現在所通過的這個這個立法院職權行使法他裡面當然"},{"start":29342.84,"end":29363.151,"text":"我們要細講每一個點他都有違反這個大法官會議的三個解釋但是我今天要講人民今天我們所通過的這個法案能夠要出席國會的聽證以及國會可以詢問的調查對象依照這個我們通過的第四十七條第一項他的規定是不是所有的幾乎中華民國的治安人跟法人全部都包括在內的"},{"start":29371.434,"end":29387.063,"text":"如果包括政府機關政府人員部隊法人團體以及社會上相關之人法人團體及社會上的人自然人所以不管你法人你任何的團體土豐五色你的這個土豐五色是團體早上的太極拳也是團體"},{"start":29389.162,"end":29405.253,"text":"任何一間餐廳也是團體任何一個人走在路上他都是自然人都是社會上相關的人相不相關由立法院認定所以全國每一個人民他都有機會被我們的這個調查委會調到立法院來對不對可不可以不出席對有罰則"},{"start":29410.971,"end":29429.751,"text":"國民黨說沒有啊我們那個刑法沒有表示國衛隊只有公務員但是這個要罰一萬到十萬而且按次處罰捏按次處罰不是說我一次罰你十萬不是是按次處罰傳你一次你不來就罰你十萬兩次不來再罰十萬十次不來再罰罰你一百萬"},{"start":29432.885,"end":29456.496,"text":"這個還不要緊喔,你到底還不能,你能不能有律師,還不是你決定的,我們刑事訴訟法都可以律師,這個偵查期間律師都可以陪同,但是來立法院,立法委員問你話,你能不能帶律師還要看主席,同不同意的,對不對?他欠缺正當的法律程序再來,我們在司法偵查的過程,都可以行使那個緘默權,"},{"start":29458.857,"end":29486.416,"text":"來立法院不能行使緘默權你不能說我知道我自證己罪我拒絕我行使緘默權不行你如果拒絕證言也有罰則我今天剩下不到一分鐘了今天假設一個實案調查委員會成立一個實案調查委員會結果我要你鼎泰豐交出你的配方你就得交出你的配方我今天成立一個科技外流"},{"start":29487.817,"end":29500.883,"text":"嚴重程度的調查委員會我要你台積電交出交出3奈米的製程你就得交出這個製程欸所以這個對人民的權益之侵害是至關重大不可不慎支持呼籲謝謝"},{"start":29510.646,"end":29525.479,"text":"報告全院委員會今天會議進行到此為止明天6月20號星期四上午9點我們繼續開會進行覆議案之詢答謝謝卓院長以及各位列席的官員我們現在休息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}