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聲面對國會監督不思反省反而兒戲賭氣般的反唇相擊顯示藐視國會英語嚴厲"},{"start":2058.712,"end":2082.632,"text":"的譴責除了嗆立委之外還有什麼算藐視國會呢?2015年3月16號的經濟委員會陳明文、邱毅英、鄧麗君等人提案他們譴責臺電發包的標案跟預算法有所漢格藐視國會監督權按照民進黨過去的標準不滿意行政部門的發包標案的方式就算是藐視國會2013年12月2號"},{"start":2086.315,"end":2101.951,"text":"司法委員會柯建民總召提案,譴責檢察總長黃世明拒絕到委員會備詢,顯然藐視國會。所以按照民進黨過去的標準,官員缺席備詢就是藐視國會,提案人是柯總召。"},{"start":2103.653,"end":2126.93,"text":"2012年10月11日教文委員會鄭麗君、許智傑、邱志偉臨時分提案因為經建會他未能提出完整政策報告而且派非主管該業務的副主委出席顯然藐視本委員會按照民進黨過去的標準不滿意行政部門的報告或怕來官員不是立委想問的對象這就是藐視國會2012年5月"},{"start":2130.032,"end":2159.045,"text":"立法院進行NCC委員提名審查其中有一位被提名人他提供的履歷只有一頁民進黨說這個是藐視國會要杯葛審查的作業那按照民進黨過去的標準不滿意獨立機關被提名人繳交的資料就是藐視國會所以什麼叫藐視國會呢?上面都是教材2013年8月民進黨的黨團幹事長高志朋還痛批"},{"start":2160.592,"end":2167.298,"text":"經濟部臺電趁國會休假的時間偷襲漲電價,意圖規避立法院的監督,藐視國會。書記長吳秉瑞也說,民進黨會發動動漲電價的表決戰,要透過記名投票方式來公民意見識。院長你有沒有覺得滿滿的既視感或滿滿的似曾相識感呢?"},{"start":2184.213,"end":2209.637,"text":"報告委員我跟您一樣我認為任何藐視人或國會都不應該但這個想辦法要去制遏止它可以但不能用立法院超越司法權監察權的方式來做還是要循正常的軌道第二點委員你一直說十多年來這個修法我對委員的尊敬就是你對某一個法案十二一二十年來專注於它的修法"},{"start":2210.177,"end":2229.426,"text":"那修法為什麼一直不能完成他有政治的生態有社會的環境有條文的內容我們現在就是考慮到政治的生態條文的內容必須要更好的條文內容才能夠有效的來做這個工作所以我們共同來推動立法的過程這個是好的但條文的內容要審慎的因應"},{"start":2230.286,"end":2243.514,"text":"過去民進黨的標準因為台電在休會期間長電價就算藐視國會所以11年前民進黨也是透過表決來動長電價所以上個月在野黨表決這個動長電價之後其實我們也是向過去的民進黨學習"},{"start":2246.395,"end":2268.259,"text":"現在是審議委員會在決定啊我剛剛舉了很多例子可以看見其實國民黨執政時期最愛提藐視國會譴責官員正視民進黨立委但是當時民進黨是少數他沒有實際的約束力所以對於怠惰傲慢的官員完全沒轍所以2012年民進黨立委高聲呼籲這個國會改革要把"},{"start":2268.559,"end":2278.246,"text":"也在臺灣智庫跟很多學者專家的支持之下有提了一個《立法院職權行使法》的修正案就請對國會說實話《立法院國會調查權法治改革法案》的說題詳盡內容我覺得最重要的是第一個"},{"start":2297.398,"end":2300.666,"text":"整個所有資訊就是廣義的調查權第一個就是我們立委對政府的質詢"},{"start":2301.664,"end":2328.391,"text":"我要說你十分鐘的質詢他只要在那邊做木頭人只要被你罵幾句事後什麼都沒有發生這個質詢並沒有辦法產生法律上的約束力他如果隱匿我們也可以就是針對這個失職我們可以要求他要負責任他如果說謊那更有在國會這個殿堂上為不實的證實或這個虛偽的證據要負刑法上的責任要負政治上的責任"},{"start":2329.752,"end":2355.994,"text":"這個諮詢權也是很重要所以我們的立法院在立法權在預算權我們獨缺了一個調查權我們可以行使權益的方式我們有諮詢我們有提案但是我們沒有聽證我們也沒有調查在這樣的情況之下我們的立法院就變缺了牙的老虎所以我們要強調的是調查權本來就應該是立法院的權責調查權編到監察院去本來就是我國體制上的混亂在體制混亂還沒有辦法釐清我們沒有辦法透過修憲來改變這樣的情形的時候我們至少應該把國會的"},{"start":2362.319,"end":2375.067,"text":"謝謝委員我知道委員放的這個影片所以我們才會有釋字585號的解釋賦予一定的調查權要給予相當的限制這個就是社會的進步所以這個585號的釋字應該是大家現在共同的標準"},{"start":2382.452,"end":2409.197,"text":"我今天針對國會改革副議員在那邊做事情,其實我感慨萬千我長期是民進黨的支持者,我為民進黨出錢出力我對民進黨的候選人站台輔選募款,為什麼?因為我堅持民主自由的普世價值我堅持守護台灣的主權,所以我選擇支持青年執政愛鄉土的民進黨但是我眼看著民進黨越走越遠、越離越偏"},{"start":2410.397,"end":2436.918,"text":"我曾經相信我有完全的執政可以讓政府好好做事但是我現在覺得要有足夠的監督制衡的力量才讓政府願意好好做事這是一個沒有罹患失憶症而且有是非感的這個臺灣人歷經8年的完全執政之後所產生的政治觀那我也不是少數因為這個政治觀也呈現在今年的大選院長認知作戰或許是選舉的戰術但不應該是執政的手段"},{"start":2437.618,"end":2464.8,"text":"國會改革案歷經四天從早上到半夜的表決我看到執政黨立委們滿場布條寫著台灣香港化人民化盡扯習近平跟中國台灣的國會改革關中國什麼事?不扯中國就沒辦法執政了嗎?不抹紅就沒辦法說贏對方嗎?台灣是民進黨的專屬嗎?愛台灣就要溺愛民進黨嗎?不應該是這樣的請院長撤回這個加劇朝野對立的復議案找回民進黨改革"},{"start":2474.174,"end":2483.347,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員,也謝謝卓院長。下一位我們請王委員定語諮詢"},{"start":2498.174,"end":2502.678,"text":"謝謝副院長。麻煩卓榮泰行政院長。請卓院長備詢。從昨天開始我看到有人不斷地用美國、德國甚至還有人拿中華人民共和國的憲法來這邊質詢。"},{"start":2521.501,"end":2545.557,"text":"來證明這一次的立法院的擴權不是濫權那但是好像不讓卓院長或者是法務部的政部長回答這些根本性的不同比方說這個美國的三權分立他們是沒有辦法質詢官員而他們的公聽聽證是很嚴謹的那至於中華人民共和國的憲法坦白講所有的條文不如習近平一句話我是在這邊建議"},{"start":2547.618,"end":2569.007,"text":"這一些不讓官員回答只講自己單項輸出的部分我們不管是全國法學院或中央研究院這些法學者或者是律師公會四百多位律師甚至於法務部應該把它整理一個簡單摘要當作全民的基本的法律教育讓大家知道有些東西這樣類比其實是"},{"start":2571.4,"end":2584.546,"text":"除了證明自己在台灣提的東西有問題以外大概沒辦法證明任何事情這我第一個建議這個院長我不知道院長跟法務部這邊可以做這樣的事情謝謝委員對因為我昨天看你一直要回答都沒辦法回答完整另外"},{"start":2586.209,"end":2608.481,"text":"在回答他們不斷的打斷官員的回覆只想要單方向的輸出這不是想要在這邊論證辯證讓社會大眾知道什麼對國家比較好只是要單方向的證明一件事情甚至於要把它變成抖音我覺得這個對我們民主進步是沒有幫助的所以我現在就叫兩個大方向"},{"start":2609.361,"end":2635.368,"text":"這一次會激怒民眾其實有兩個主要原因讓十萬個年輕人冒著大雨大太陽站在青島東路、徐州路、濟南路上面從517、521、524到528兩個主要一個是反對這個審查的黑箱過程或者我們把它叫做立法程序的粗糙這個好像也是你復議的原因之一是的委員第二個是"},{"start":2636.318,"end":2660.785,"text":"對於這樣子的或權濫權影響一般人民權益甚至於對院紀之間的權力的分際有產生一些紛擾所以這麼重大的法案影響到院紀的運作人民的權益卻這麼粗糙我不知道作為行政院長、總院長你認為這個審查過程你可不可以具體講出一個例子你認為粗糙的地方在哪裡或者不適當的地方在哪裡"},{"start":2662.093,"end":2674.619,"text":"在審查的過程委員應該比我清楚但我們從外界來看跟社會語言來看我覺得一直談論說最後是經過表決但那個表決是不是一個很嚴謹的表決應該"},{"start":2677.499,"end":2686.689,"text":"其實我看到國民黨民眾黨藍白的委員講的話,不只跟你講表決,他告訴我有三場公聽會,還有審查的過程。三場公聽會兩場是審查民主進步黨黨團的提案,後來都是被封殺了。三場公聽會,4月3號是國民黨辦的,只針對國民黨民眾黨版本。"},{"start":2698.542,"end":2721.019,"text":"然後四月十號到四月十一號呢是民進黨辦的有民進黨版本結果進覆二讀的呢沒有民進黨版本所以坦白講國民黨公聽會就一場那更荒謬的是五一七開會的時候有一個最高機密版跟這三場公聽會通通都沒關係所以這公聽會給開嘛然後呢"},{"start":2722.26,"end":2735.931,"text":"縱使公共會講的再透徹還是要回到立法院審查法案的程序委員會審查朝野協商院會發言登記討論到表決所以你看齁我計算了一下在委員會審查齁"},{"start":2738.12,"end":2756.746,"text":"司法法制委員會國民黨當召委的時候應該審查的條文數總共有三個章名五十五條次這是立法院的職權行使法刑法的條文是一個章名三個條次總共四個章名五十八條次結果"},{"start":2757.952,"end":2770.778,"text":"只要有意見就保留就不讓你討論就送出委員會保留多少呢?四個章名五十八條字百分之百我還截了一小段你看那個議事錄像那個"},{"start":2773.818,"end":2795.009,"text":"審法會委員說有意見我要發言有意見保留出委員會不讓他發言不討論所以在委員會的討論是這個情形那我們還整理一個表在5月16號韓國瑜院長主持的黨團協商完全沒有進行逐條討論沒有協商說一條逐條都沒有隔天517就要表決表決的版本"},{"start":2797.157,"end":2816.515,"text":"我後來發現是不是冤枉了韓國瑜院長因為他那一天草野協商的版本最高機密版還沒生出來啊所以那一天啊如果逐條進行協商協商出來都要審查表決的變成是黃國昌跟翁曉琳的最高機密版那些是合相不變阿蘇巴拉的所以也沒有就丟出來了"},{"start":2817.523,"end":2833.848,"text":"最後呢到院會最重要的表決前登記發言2844人次只准73個人發言沒收了97.5%你看議事錄明就告訴你每次有一個人講完話國民黨民眾黨就提案終止討論沒收發言"},{"start":2835.768,"end":2857.542,"text":"所以這樣子的過程其實是不讓你討論沒辦法去討論那些文字所以到三讀還在偷修改文字所以我可以理解卓院長你講的這個過程沒有經過充分的這個議事的過程其實還有一個最重要的你看我們立法院議事規範的第36條36條告訴我們表決要何否兩方依次行之"},{"start":2866.038,"end":2882.872,"text":"我們那天被舉手表決人數輕點亂七八糟表決的人數大過於現場的人數就先不講這裡他表決只做可方就一方表決沒有做否方這牽涉到憲法的訴訟法第47條"},{"start":2886.028,"end":2912.547,"text":"憲法司法法第49條裡面講到反對方要四分之一立法委員才能就能提出事先案所以我不知道我們立法院秘書長在搞什麼東西我們的議事規範明明就是要可否也就是贊成請舉手反對請舉手因為有人可以不舉手啊那幾天的表決我們在場的那個記者都看得很清楚都一方舉手後面都不表決了"},{"start":2913.601,"end":2929.687,"text":"唯一一次做可否表決是因為民眾黨跟國民黨的票數沒過半他才做可否表決可是簽到後面有關釋憲要四分之一對這一點行政院的看法是什麼因為如果覆議沒有過我相信後面要走釋憲因為影響太大"},{"start":2930.809,"end":2953.472,"text":"這一個表決方式沒有讓否決方式出來也是一個非常重大的瑕疵主委長你的看法如果表決方式的瑕疵造成未來市縣上的障礙那又會引發另一場法律跟憲法的爭議所以我覺得過程都應該讓他很嚴謹的依法來完成所以我很珍惜這次覆議案的提出能夠像王委員這樣子清清楚楚講出整個過程"},{"start":2954.913,"end":2956.555,"text":"國人同胞才有機會認清楚這個過程"},{"start":2976.955,"end":2985.169,"text":"議場裡面,國民黨加民黨的表決還是未贏,但這個法律的審查過程是有問題的。那就條文的部分我們請法務部長上來,我把握時間還有兩分鐘。"},{"start":2987.506,"end":3014.971,"text":"你看我們這一次通過的立法院的職權行使法第25條這25條呢我畫了紅字其實很簡單就告訴你第一個你不能反質詢不能做質詢範圍外的質詢坦白講這是這只是約束被質詢的我這裡面看到有質詢的立委講到兩國論講東講西他都可以超出範圍被質詢的不行這裡面我先請教法務部長政部長你是檢察官出身的嘛"},{"start":3017.113,"end":3024.119,"text":"反諮詢到現在你弄懂了沒?什麼叫反諮詢?我不理解這個反諮詢真正的定義如果你不理解定義不清楚這怎麼處罰?"},{"start":3026.583,"end":3046.694,"text":"這個質詢這本來就是不應該處罰的那我告訴你他的處罰方式是用這個五個立委齁認為有問題這個就給你移送啊移送監察院啊對他這個還有裁罰五個立委通過然後院會決議就把你送出去啦還有裁罰還有那個後面還有罰錢所以這個定義是不清楚然後另外你看第25條齁"},{"start":3048.188,"end":3048.688,"text":"請盡快回答部長"},{"start":3071.65,"end":3099.161,"text":"公務員就是公務員服務法裡面所依依法那個刑法的公務員就是公務員的定義是比公務人員更廣喔公務員是除了事務官以外政務官以外還包含依法從事公務事務的人喔是包括那個委託行政的委託行政譬如說那個公路委託那個驗車的那一組就是委託驗車啦里長都坐這條房然後呢重要關係事項定義不明"},{"start":3100.741,"end":3124.387,"text":"虛偽陳述,定義不明,然後立委決定把你移送,可以連續罰一年以下有期徒刑,這影響好多人,那這邊還有有關係之人,一般人都會受影響,所以我最後請問,罰款是不是一般人會受影響?被送刑事處罰的是公務員,這廣義的定義都會受影響,請簡單回答。全部都會受影響,因為時間到,我建議"},{"start":3133.951,"end":3141.837,"text":"好,謝謝王委員,也謝謝卓院長下一位請徐委員巧心質詢"},{"start":3166.655,"end":3172.099,"text":"謝謝我們副院長。我們想要有請卓榮泰院長。請卓院長備詢。徐委員好。院長好。我想要先請問,你們是不是在這個6月6號的時候,有在你們的臉書上面提出行政院的復議案七大理由的圖卡?"},{"start":3195.159,"end":3213.971,"text":"是的那為什麼在我們收到你們的報告裡面的時候呢七項變成六項可不可以先跟我們說明具體的原因為什麼對外所公開在臉書上給大眾看的是一個版本但是給立法委員看的是另外一個版本呢"},{"start":3215.218,"end":3229.403,"text":"謝謝委員的這個發現但是內容都是一樣的內容一樣嗎公文書公文書你講話要誠實喔內容一樣嗎我們都把這個有一項都放在內容裡面來談有一項是哪一項就是這個這個哪個這個"},{"start":3233.308,"end":3262.338,"text":"無差別那一項對對對只有一項嗎無差別那一項只有一項你確定我要問你的事是是不是只有一項臉書上的PO文臉書上PO文代表我那時候一個心情公文書代表心情你們發臉書只是代表你個人的心情當時當時行政院可以這樣子嗎這個是對於人民公開的行政院七大復議理由應該是要非常審慎的不是按照我們院長的心情來處理的"},{"start":3263.138,"end":3283.325,"text":"所以七大你剛告訴我說,七大理由變六項,只是改了一個無差別,對不對?其他都一樣!我想問其他是不是都一樣?或許有調整,調整的內容重要或不重要呢?你覺得?"},{"start":3285.926,"end":3313.009,"text":"那不是嘛你給民眾看的東西跟你給我的公文書不一樣啊請問這個公文書有給家家戶戶有給所有的民眾參考嗎如果沒有那幾乎所有民眾他只能從臉書6月6號到現在十幾天的時間看到你的心情然後寫的七大原因跟我們所收到的公文書不一樣啊院長"},{"start":3313.669,"end":3337.156,"text":"公文書是對大院提出的,所以可以透過媒體讓大眾知道,但我們不可能把公文書送到每一個人的手上。那你為什麼內容會不一樣,你剛剛告訴我說只有無差別三個自由改對不對?條整只有,我就問你說是不是只有無差別條整,你先回答我這個問題嘛。"},{"start":3338.976,"end":3360.472,"text":"這個覆議案是你們提出的你不能我問你問題的時候你不知道啊不然我們時間不然主席我們時間停止讓他們把答案找出來好不好因為我們今天覆議案是你提出的所以你給民眾看的版本跟你送給我們的公文書的版本哪裡不一樣如果我們的院長都不清楚那你們提什麼覆議案呢"},{"start":3361.372,"end":3361.572,"text":"一、二、三"},{"start":3386.714,"end":3409.034,"text":"一二三 有三樣都是不一樣的你們的圖卡裡面只有七條結果有三條都跟你們傳給我們的正式覆議文書不一樣啊來 無差別這個你們已經知道了嘛根本沒有什麼無差別所以你們在最後給我們的文書拿掉了"},{"start":3410.825,"end":3416.747,"text":"你告訴我說這個內容都還是有提到雖然標題沒有我告訴你覆議案裡面請問有沒有空轉兩個字"},{"start":3426.07,"end":3440.823,"text":"但是會造成憲法跟法定機關我知道我問你的是你提供給民眾參考的東西上面寫了空轉政府但是你給我們的正式的韓文裡面有沒有空轉兩個字嗎?公文書上面我們用比較"},{"start":3441.969,"end":3443.271,"text":"懷疑官員虛偽陳述﹖就可以刻意刑責﹖懷疑兩個字不見了"},{"start":3461.531,"end":3466.573,"text":"這個昨天黃國昌委員在質詢的時候我聽過了嘛我問你的事情很簡單來我們回到那個七大覆議圖卡那一張好不好"},{"start":3481.039,"end":3502.352,"text":"行政院的七大覆議理由我看我這裡有沒有行政院的七大覆議理由裡面所寫的七項原因當中跟你們所提供給我們的最後的六項裡面有三項在文字上面在我們的本子裡面韓文裡面都沒有所以我想要請問這是不是一個錯誤"},{"start":3504.042,"end":3528.221,"text":"意思是完全相同的意思不一樣無差別調查民眾跟你只要懷疑官員虛偽陳述就刻意行責跟沒有懷疑是不一樣的無差別調查民眾跟沒有無差別調查民眾是不一樣的會不會造成政府空喘跟這個不會造成政府空喘是不一樣的這是最基本的一個文字邏輯來請回答"},{"start":3529.962,"end":3543.852,"text":"懷疑就是不希望用主觀的判斷一個人委員提案五個人聯署就可以把它做有罪或無罪的認定無差別就是希望能夠依照事法自治第585條我就跟委員報告"},{"start":3546.333,"end":3554.559,"text":"內容沒有一樣因為你寫了無差別之後所有的民眾看到都會以為自己也會被調查但實際上我們有相當程度的法律程序以及相當的救濟"},{"start":3574.173,"end":3595.299,"text":"我還有很多問題要問你我們看一下這個國會改革無法通過之後會出現這種情況嗎我有幾個問題想要問你第一個問題是這樣子的國會改革無法通過以後國會會被習近平管轄會變成戒嚴嗎會嗎"},{"start":3599.208,"end":3599.429,"text":"主條審查"},{"start":3616.767,"end":3618.188,"text":"媒體媒體當然包括國會頻道"},{"start":3640.765,"end":3664.994,"text":"那你看了沒有?你有瞭解嗎?重點的時候有看到,那我剛剛問你很重點嘛,因為很多人都在講習近平嘛,所以我問你,國會改革文法通過之後,請問國會會被戒嚴嗎?習近平會管轄台灣嗎?我沒有看到這個重點。好,沒有看到,我給你看是誰講的?我不用多念他的名字,很多人都很熟。"},{"start":3666.035,"end":3691.838,"text":"柯建民講的再來國會改革無法通過之後會出現這種情況嗎?國會改革通過傅昆奇委員就再也不能被批評了因為如果你批評他的話就會跟習近平被叫小熊維尼的下場一樣也就是說呢會被國家清算請問國會改革無法通過之後我們就不能再批評任何立法委員了嗎?"},{"start":3693.101,"end":3695.67,"text":"請問在法條裡面的哪裡有提到?"},{"start":3699.022,"end":3726.431,"text":"不知道委員這個提案是什麼意思?國會改革是國會內部的改革我希望他更有效率立法委員更高所以嗎?國會改革通過立法委員該不該受批評他是說他是說就會下場一樣喔藐視國會通過以後立法委員不能被批評我們在國會改革報告裡面有這項嗎?立法委員會不會受批評是自己言行的表達所以跟藐視國會最沒有關係嗎?來我們來看這句話是誰講的"},{"start":3730.375,"end":3741.102,"text":"來再問一個國會改革文法通過以後機敏的國家資料企業的重要專利配方會出現在習近平的桌上嗎?"},{"start":3743.368,"end":3759.834,"text":"會出現在立法院的桌上但是會不會有其他的轉換我這個不清楚我們曾經也有過這樣的疑慮也發生過這樣的事件我們有曾經有國家的資料出現在習近平的桌上曾經有外傳外送出去不一定到哪裡去沒有我講的是習近平的桌上來我們看一下誰講的"},{"start":3761.465,"end":3764.266,"text":"記名資料是有可能被散播出去的被什麼?被散播出去"},{"start":3806.488,"end":3823.701,"text":"好,謝謝徐委員、謝謝卓院長下一位請黃委員三三質詢謝謝主席,我想請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":3833.57,"end":3859.553,"text":"委員長早我想這幾天大家已經討論非常非常久我還是想回到憲法跟法律的層次我想問一下行政院現在是在跟大法官搶憲法的解釋權嗎當然不是不是嗎所以行政院不是憲法解釋單位當然不是國會改革大家說國會改革擴權但是我們認為的國會改革是希望老師說真話"},{"start":3861.511,"end":3867.072,"text":"維憲是當中的一部分所謂依法行政這個法當然就指憲法跟一般的法律所以你認為違法就至愛難行"},{"start":3890.677,"end":3918.701,"text":"那現在的問題是剛剛你也承認了嘛我們憲法的解釋權是誰?是憲法法庭對,憲法法庭憲法法庭在解釋憲法不是由民進黨的立法院黨團總召或者是行政院院長來解釋你同意嗎?同意是,所以我在立法院我也才剛剛來個五個月但是我常常聽到一句話就是只要在野黨通過的法案都是迴憲亂政不一定是這樣子"},{"start":3919.775,"end":3920.496,"text":"要看內容而言,內容而言"},{"start":3940.609,"end":3967.254,"text":"同樣的法案國會改革的法案民進黨提出非常多次我們也希望說剛剛院長已經說了行政院不是違憲審查機關沒有憲法解釋權民主進步黨的立法院總召也不是憲法解釋機關請不要以後用違憲亂政來形容立法院所提的每一個不管福國利民的法案"},{"start":3968.653,"end":3982.171,"text":"你做得到嗎?你可以約束這些人嗎?至少你可以約束行政院嗎?行政院是憲政機關。我們對於在憲法的權利被剝奪了、被侵害了或是被破壞了,我們都有義務提出來救濟。"},{"start":3985.856,"end":3990.04,"text":"這是民進黨長期的主張,這是蔡英文總統在2015年12月8號的臉書,落實建立聽證調查制度,強化監督能量。這是民進黨長期的主張,我想請問院長,這也是您的信仰嗎?"},{"start":4011.627,"end":4029.845,"text":"對,讓國會更有效率那行政院跟國會跟立法院一同來努力這是國家、國人共同的希望是,這次的覆議案裡面你們覆議了全部所以你知道裡面有幾條是民進黨的版本嗎?我所知道的都是一些程序上的規定所以這一天你也要覆議嗎?"},{"start":4030.831,"end":4054.066,"text":"全部覆議公法學者專家跟我們的討論認為我們必須就全部來做覆議不是部分條文但是我們決定全部來覆議所以也就是說行政院打臉民進黨的版本民進黨版本是針對書面回覆從20天降為10天你認為至愛難行是嗎?"},{"start":4056.65,"end":4080.483,"text":"如果有機會討論的話,是要維持這個案子,委員長或是助理,我們尊重。好,知愛難行,都是知愛難行。我剛剛聽到您跟前面幾位委員的詢問。剛剛看到說,行政院版本的這些圖卡是你的心情。我很詫異,院長,你已經不能有心情,你就是院長了。你是最高行政首長,你要對全民負責,所以,"},{"start":4081.488,"end":4104.605,"text":"相關的法案相關的理由都必須要非常謹慎昨天晚上我有一個影片那也是我的心情好那是你個人的部分但是你現在可能是一個行政首長我想問一下民進黨已經執政兩次從陳水扁總統八年到蔡英文總統八年請問這兩個八年民進黨有提出任何國會改革的版本嗎"},{"start":4105.804,"end":4132.065,"text":"你覺得不好那又是你的信念民進黨提過嗎在他們兩次的幾乎是尤其是蔡英文總統的八年完全執政情況下有沒有提過相關的版本應該是有討論到相關的版本你剛剛說這個法條不好你要不要提出更好的版本為什麼這一次民進黨在他們也提出國會改革版本在立法院職權行使法裡面也沒有國會聽證調查制度的版本呢"},{"start":4133.081,"end":4155.059,"text":"如果是國會改革的版本應該不宜由行政院來提出是不能由行政院提出但是可以由行政院復議嗎因為他牽扯到機關法人團體人民如果院長剛剛說這個法條不好復議案沒有空過總統公佈就可以修法你們要不要提修法的版本"},{"start":4156.655,"end":4172.71,"text":"應該還是從大院裡面自己來覆議裡面來做文字上的調整法條上的調整是比較下意的覆議只有yes or no覆議沒有辦法修正條文修正條文要另外提修法案我想這個相關的程序你們可以提啊不需要浪費國家資源"},{"start":4173.931,"end":4195.781,"text":"我希望,院長,如果你有更好的法條,就拿出來,大家可以繼續往下走。我想人民都在看,但是用一些情緒性的字眼,或者是說用一些故意去抹黑的字眼,我覺得不宜啦。並沒有。如果,我現在就要問你啦,到底有沒有抹黑?院長,我們都是為人父母,我們認為,你認為說謊是正確的嗎?"},{"start":4199.688,"end":4225.717,"text":"我再說一次說謊說謊是所有人的人格自殺從小到大我們都被爸爸媽媽老師教不能說謊對吧是在學校不能說謊在職場不能說謊在法院作證不能說謊因為有偽證罪接下來我要跟你說你們說這個不明確的法律概念來部長你要上來請站來時間暫停"},{"start":4230.558,"end":4250.678,"text":"我現在跟你講的就是我們希望您是全國最高的行政首長我今天只跟你談公務員官員不說謊對行政員來說是至愛難行嗎你說很困難因為這個不明確的法律條文這是刑法168條刑法168條只要證人在法庭上對案情有關的重要事項為虛偽陳述這一點"},{"start":4254.762,"end":4273.94,"text":"這個法律已經民國23年到現在部長請問這裡面有哪一個虛偽陳述有哪一點是不明確的法律概念這個是有一個代證的一個事實一個存在我想我們都念法律一百六十八條是因為這一條有沒有不確定的法律概念嗎虛偽陳述是不確定的法律概念嗎是嗎"},{"start":4275.724,"end":4280.307,"text":"檢察官已經用這條用了多久了?法官用這條用了多久了?沒錯你認為公務員陳述他經歷的真實的事實?"},{"start":4294.298,"end":4294.599,"text":"是可以說謊嗎?"},{"start":4311.698,"end":4326.814,"text":"第2個院長很簡單這不是不明確的法律概念已經用了上快百年的一條法條最重要的是我認為你是最高行政首長不說謊在立法院是至愛難行的嗎你告訴我這句話"},{"start":4327.807,"end":4328.727,"text":"新的修法裡面是有這樣的行為的"},{"start":4353.952,"end":4373.798,"text":"對,但是虛偽陳述不是不明確法律概念我再講掉一次,這法已經用了上百年所以你檢察官要去查啊立法委員移送給你就不查了嗎你不查那交給你刑罰做什麼呢所以我們說你給地檢署來調查有沒有虛偽陳述地檢署檢察官比立法委員更有經驗法官更有判斷這是依法行事"},{"start":4383.661,"end":4406.873,"text":"下一條官員出席質詢立法院的決定不能用表決的方式啊我們把他移送任何人都可以告發不是嗎如果今天這是條公訴罪一般百姓知道那個人在說謊他就可以拿去法院做偽證罪的告發不是嗎同樣的有人拿出資料證明這個人在國會說謊他也可以拿去告發不是嗎為什麼要透過表決的方式"},{"start":4407.153,"end":4430.091,"text":"沒有要透過表決的方式因為這是刑法這條是公職的院會移送就像所有調查委會移送某某調查委給廉政署一樣的道理院長不要再說跟院會有關誰都可以移送好最後院長我再請教最近我常常聽到說只要增加預算就是違憲你認為嗎"},{"start":4432.39,"end":4433.772,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員好,謝謝左院長下一位請賴委員會員質詢"},{"start":4466.462,"end":4470.944,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝主席。有請院長。有請院長備詢。各位好。早安。我想在這裡要跟院長鼓勵,也跟我們的整個行政團隊加油。站在這個地方,這個地方是一個非常錯置的、錯亂的一個地方。"},{"start":4495.071,"end":4506.291,"text":"四天半是哪些人佔據了主席台是哪一位主席才是說可以舉手表決讓我們的民主倒退了三十幾年"},{"start":4507.844,"end":4528.385,"text":"院長我想一個覆議案的七大理由這麼一個七大理由因為我們公文有公文的一個格式跟民眾溝通有讓人民理解所以用字遣詞會有所不同但本質上不會改變"},{"start":4530.001,"end":4550.857,"text":"這根本就是常識的問題因為有些人的家人有些委員的家人就是在做詐騙所以他認為大家都是在詐騙這一個社會這個是讓我們非常心痛的院長你當過立委你知道這一屆的立委其實空前空前的誇張"},{"start":4552.594,"end":4577.368,"text":"我們在排隊在排隊要簽那個簽到會莫名其妙被咆哮我們甚至在委員會裡頭會被藐視本席認為就是說在談國會改革之前我們應該要先用鏡子照照自己應該要禁止咆哮禁止藐視同事從這個國會改革開始"},{"start":4581.414,"end":4607.237,"text":"院長我們都知道就是說在憲法賦予立法院的一個前者在4至585裡頭的議決文裡頭我們希望立法院在議決預算在法律的時候有調查權來輔佐可是當我們看到這些號稱改革的人他們說修法是為了追查弊案要追查弊案那是不是就請他們去參加司法特考"},{"start":4609.096,"end":4628.795,"text":"其實我想立委是可以有調查權那絕對不能侵害民主的體制跟人民院長你的看法是怎麼樣當然我們在4至5、8、5號裡面的解釋是有一定程度的調查、調閱或是相關的權利但是他一定有受到限制"},{"start":4629.835,"end":4655.415,"text":"對一定有受到限制對於行政特權對於一些國家的機密等等一定有受到相當的限制那這個限制也應該落實在每一個條文上面裡面來而不是只抄前面一段院長這一段時間我們參加很多那個地方的跑很多地方的行程大部分都是端午節跟畢業典禮端午節我們看到的是在社區裡頭的長輩"},{"start":4658.564,"end":4680.266,"text":"然後在學校的畢業典禮,我們看到的是青壯年的這些年輕的家長們。其實在本市的選區裡頭,有很多人告訴我,他們說,你們要回去跟左院長說,你們要回去跟下層說,加油啊,要加油,不然台灣這次沒辦法了。"},{"start":4681.343,"end":4700.239,"text":"我每次聽到這樣的一個鼓勵的聲音的時候,其實我們的內心,我個人內心非常的痛苦。大家有看到這四天半,很多人他們不會告訴我們說不可以去修法,他們是告訴我們說你們一定要站起來,挺上來。"},{"start":4701.619,"end":4723.705,"text":"院長,在你記憶首集,小英總統的前八年的一個執政,因為有一個次長因弊案而入獄。如果民政署跟警政署的辦事不力,那怎麼會讓民進黨的這一些政務官都安全下莊呢?"},{"start":4725.211,"end":4747.688,"text":"所以我覺得這個整個民眾黨跟國民黨他們是先捏拿了一個貪腐的假象再假借就是查弊案來擴權這個是一個輸不起的一個修法然後另外我再請問院長你支持不支持就是總統來立法院急問急答呢"},{"start":4748.889,"end":4773.064,"text":"這是總統在憲法上的權利,如果總統能夠來,我想也是創下一個相當好的民主憲政,但我無法替總統回答,但是我認為民選的總統接受國會對他依照憲法上的互動,應該是一個可以讓他成為一個正常的事情。好,院長,我再請教你,總統在憲法上面有沒有義務來立法院備詢啊?"},{"start":4775.233,"end":4792.73,"text":"立法院每年在集會的時候得邀請總統來做國情報告是文字上面寫得非常清楚當時立法的精神以及憲法的設計就是總統應立法院的要求他可以來他可以來但是絕對不是一項定期的義務而且必須是急問急答"},{"start":4792.91,"end":4815.7,"text":"沒有錯 院長你講得非常清楚 沒有義務沒有義務到立法院來備詢喔 是沒有義務的喔那這樣的修法根本就是非常明顯就是違憲那為什麼藍白選前合不了輸了就藍白為奸呢他們就要一起來修法做太上皇"},{"start":4816.46,"end":4817.42,"text":"是怎樣?"},{"start":4817.42,"end":4832.605,"text":"總統都算數啊嘛,所以他們要修法做太上皇,這是本席的一個最直接也最直接的一個感覺。院長,你應該首讀國會的擴權法案,之前相輔的這個是常識啊。"},{"start":4833.479,"end":4850.636,"text":"那可是在國會的擴權法案中我們看到立法院對行政部門的一個約束我們沒有看到行政院對我自己的自我約束這個是一個想擴權又不願意負責的一個修法不知道院長你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":4851.499,"end":4872.643,"text":"其實在這個新的修法當中,我們祥悅了這個裡面的條文,它是創設了很多過去少見的權利,也是沒有的權利。它可以把它自己當作是一個法院,是一個檢察官,這樣的方式,我想對於這個五院的體制跟憲政的分立,是絕對是一個很不好的侵害跟破壞。"},{"start":4873.163,"end":4901.463,"text":"是,所以院長我剛才一直在講這是一個非常錯字的地方當很多人十分鐘裡頭他不斷的提到的是習近平提到的是香港的大會堂為什麼我們不可以講未來如果我們讓這一個修法這樣子擴全的修法通過的話台灣的民主即將被沒收"},{"start":4902.928,"end":4916.59,"text":"這個是我們擔心的我不知道院長你的看法是怎樣我們不希望台灣的民主被不民主破壞不希望台灣的言論自由被言論不自由破壞所以我們捍衛的是這裡的憲政跟我們的自由民主人權"},{"start":4917.648,"end":4936.154,"text":"是,所以院長你也擔心台灣的民主危機,當我們台灣在國際地位屹立不搖的站穩腳步的時候,我們的科技業是全世界最大最大的一個經濟的一個源頭的時候,如果我們還要去歸咎我們的民主體制是"},{"start":4937.094,"end":4938.475,"text":"我更為一般人民擔心"},{"start":4964.17,"end":4984.194,"text":"更為一般人民擔心沒有錯所以這個就是說本席在這裡要特別特別就是跟院長提醒就像我們南部的鄉親他一直在講我再重複一次我每次聽到這樣的話我就很難過他們叫賴清德總統,他們都叫他親中啊欸,他們現在也叫你倒硬中欸他說你要幫他倒硬啊要硬起來啊"},{"start":4991.584,"end":5002.214,"text":"要硬起來啊這是我們最通俗的台灣話其實這個裡頭承載的就是滿滿的一個肯定滿滿的一個託付啊 院長聽到吃不乾嘛"},{"start":5007.631,"end":5031.979,"text":"所以我們每一次到立法院當我們每一天來來去去坐高鐵早上到立法院委員會執行完畢以後我們回到地方的時候其實我們心裡頭都是感動的我們都是背負著一個十萬票的一個名義到立法院來為我們的鄉親打拚的那我們看到一個這麼挫制的一個立法院"},{"start":5033.059,"end":5053.084,"text":"當我們非常難過的時候,我們不知道要怎麼樣回去跟鄉親講,就是有一情人不愛台灣,好啊。好,一定,我最要跟你請教,國民黨已經進化成一個獨裁的怪獸,十年前有318的一個學運運動,有公民的社會力量,讓國民黨"},{"start":5054.364,"end":5056.505,"text":"當然願意用所有的力量跟生命來捍衛"},{"start":5088.326,"end":5111.804,"text":"好,謝謝賴委員謝謝卓院長下一位請葉委員援資發言不好意思,主席請找卓榮泰院長,謝謝請卓院長備詢"},{"start":5122.453,"end":5145.381,"text":"院長好 議員好剛剛聽到前一位委員又在說國民黨不愛台灣我真的覺得很悲哀就是說有些人總是喜歡在台灣裡面找敵人把意見不同跟自己意見不同就扣帽子說不愛台灣大家都是在台灣生台灣長都是為台灣好即便是意見不同也不需要給人家扣帽子院長你同意嗎"},{"start":5146.363,"end":5174.25,"text":"我非常希望台灣是這樣一個社會所以每個人對自己的言行都要負責任院長我現在跟你意見一定不一樣嘛但我不會說你不愛台灣只有我才愛台灣因為現在為止我們都一樣啊對不對所以意見可以不一樣可以討論嘛但是不要扣帽子啦我覺得這大家一直講民主啦這才是民主的真諦我尊重你的意見跟我不一樣但是我尊重你講話的自由跟權利對吧院長很好謝謝不要扣帽子好嗎好院長謝謝"},{"start":5175.53,"end":5193.665,"text":"那今天因為是針對覆議案來質詢我想跟院長先確認一下你的幾個覆議的理由那到底他實際上是什麼意思那因為有一些不理由其他委員已經有跟你深入討論我針對有一些我看到比較少討論的部分來跟你就教第二點你有提到說"},{"start":5195.026,"end":5212.406,"text":"有一個理由是我們現在的版本混淆雙手掌制然後質詢總統違憲對吧這第二點是你們的理由吧請問院長你覺得台灣現在制度是雙手掌制嗎我們憲法的設計是這樣子是齁是雙手掌制那雙手掌制的特色是什麼這是民選的總統"},{"start":5215.736,"end":5217.197,"text":"任用行政院長向國會負責。"},{"start":5231.817,"end":5232.257,"text":"總理是怎麼產生的?總理選舉出來的"},{"start":5260.073,"end":5274.668,"text":"法國的雙首長制實際上叫做行政權雙軌制就是如果總統跟國會多數黨是同一個黨的時候最高行政首長就是總統但是只要總統跟國會最大黨不一樣的時候就由國會最大黨來決定總理"},{"start":5279.853,"end":5302.652,"text":"所以行政權這時候又換到總理那邊去了所以他是換軌的就是說要嘛就是總統是最高行政首長要嘛就是總理是最高行政首長跟台灣所謂的雙首長制是完全不一樣的結構那所以你知道為什麼大家講說台灣的這個制度跟法國的比啊是弱很多你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":5303.942,"end":5322.355,"text":"最主要原因是因為我們現在的雙手掌制啊形成了一種總統有權無責但是行政院長有責無權的狀況其實這個在民主體制是非常不健康的因為所謂的民主什麼叫民主民主就是責任權力相輔嘛"},{"start":5322.975,"end":5351.918,"text":"就是說你這個總統有極大的權力但是你要受到相對應的監督然後人民的聲音反映給總統總統施行任何政策順應民意這個是民主的真諦可是在我們國家的制度啊行政院長已經變成了總統的執行長所以當然院長每次來接受國會的監督可是你不是實際上做決定的人這個才是我們國家不符合民主的最主要原因院長你知道嗎"},{"start":5352.739,"end":5355.081,"text":"賴清德總統在2016年和他之前在當台南市長的時候,多次強調台灣要朝向內閣制的雙手黨制,比較健康。"},{"start":5373.795,"end":5392.46,"text":"他自己提出來他說我們的葛奎行政院長應該要經過國會的同意這個是賴清德總統講的你可以看一下要經過立院同意為什麼因為賴清德總統他自己發現說我們的制度不對啦我們的制度不對才真正造成民主危機"},{"start":5393.22,"end":5397.084,"text":"所以第一齁你的復議的理由第二點混淆雙手掌制實際上你並沒有很了解我們國家到底什麼制度我們國家實際上是總統制"},{"start":5409.716,"end":5430.737,"text":"就是總統才是最高行政首長如果按照您提到的我們國家是雙首長制的話那您才是最高行政首長可是你可以所以你的權利是大於總統的喔抱歉委員在憲法規定上行政院長就是最高的行政首長但是實際上決策的人不是你嘛你的決策可以超過總統嗎"},{"start":5432.819,"end":5446.416,"text":"做最終決策的當然是行政院那你的決策可不可以超過總統總統如果叫你做A你可以說不要我做B嗎我們的權力有沒有大過總統我們可以跟總統很深入的去討論跟決定但是決定還是總統決定在行政院所以你比總統大"},{"start":5448.198,"end":5476.619,"text":"所以你在政策上面,如果總統叫你往A,你說不對,總統應該B,要聽我的,我才是最高行政首長,你敢跟總統講這樣的話嗎?我們會說明理由,距離的這個政策應該...距離力爭,但是最後決定前還在總統,所以今天...行政院該決定的事項就在行政院決定。對啦,可是過去,憲政我不針對你個人...就像我們很多的政策也要跟立法院討論是一樣的啊。但是過去憲政的運作很多都是總統決定嘛,像要開放美豬啊,"},{"start":5477.339,"end":5477.839,"text":"中華民國刑事局長"},{"start":5500.127,"end":5519.142,"text":"衛生有關這兩個理論上來講是屬於行政院的權責可是我們並沒有在行政院下面在另外社委員會我們是在總統府下社委員會就變成一個太上皇機關跟委員報告健康台灣是總統選舉時候很重要的一個政見所以從這個角度來看成立一個健康台灣的委員會"},{"start":5520.083,"end":5532.507,"text":"是應該而且是給社會接受的。環境的問題未來牽扯到是整個國際戰略的問題。我同意所以現在我們國家最高行政總統就是總統。因為他在選舉的時候會提一些政見而這些政見必須要落實。"},{"start":5537.009,"end":5554.057,"text":"他必須落實所以諮詢委員會做出來結論會去影響行政院但是做出這個決策者他不需要到立法院來備詢導致於有權無責的狀況但這些都是跨黨派的社會人士他不一定會到立法院來對沒錯所以有權無責"},{"start":5555.157,"end":5582.302,"text":"其實我們在討論我們兩個討論並沒有什麼太大的旗艦我只要告訴院長說對沒錯總統有政見他要落實要放黨派但是最後總統決策以後要求行政院來執行所以行政院就是總統的CEO但是總統不需要到國會來接受監督副召集人在總統府的三個委員會當中副召集人多數也都是行政院的代表那為什麼要在總統委員會那就直接行政院下面設就好了行政院有行政院成立經濟委員會"},{"start":5583.422,"end":5607.859,"text":"那就跌床駕屋啦,到時候要聽誰的,要聽總統的還要聽行政院長的所以你看,你講一句話就會產生三個問題,這就是制度問題嘛所以我們國家不是雙手掌制,我們國家就是總統制嚴格講是偏向總統制的雙手掌制,很多的學員是這樣雙手掌制的意思是說行政權要換到您的手上啦,所有事情就由你來決定事實上是如此啊沒有啊,我們如果有的話為什麼要三個委員會"},{"start":5609.32,"end":5636.802,"text":"然後再來,剛剛在第二點,後面那一項,質詢總統違憲,我們並沒有質詢總統,那個是邀請總統來報告,依序及時問答,其實那個是問答,問答,而且是依序,有問有答,是依序問答,但是到底要怎麼問答,其實是要保留給朝野協商,所以這是法律的不免協定,沒有,那大家說朝野協商呢?"},{"start":5637.782,"end":5659.227,"text":"對總統邀請來會經過什麼樣的質詢是他來了之前才決定他該用什麼的方式呢?不是質詢嘛等一下什麼是質詢等一下但那不是質詢那個院長我不知道說你知不知道什麼是質詢我等一下跟你討論好我們接下來看齁這個有一些那個有一些你們黨友因為你是大師兄我也是很尊敬你有一些黨友的言論我才聽不懂齁"},{"start":5660.047,"end":5673.767,"text":"這位是前內政部長林佑昌他說國民黨跟民眾黨立委聯合修法把自己變成法官叫你到立法院問話然後你藐視國會國民黨民眾黨多數舉手判以有罪請問一下在我們通過的法條哪一條是這樣規定"},{"start":5675.863,"end":5675.883,"text":"有認識嗎?"},{"start":5693.581,"end":5696.223,"text":"我要跟他講,雖然政府人員也是人民,但是這個用詞稍微應該精準一點。"},{"start":5715.193,"end":5716.374,"text":"好,謝謝葉委員下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員質詢"},{"start":5748.832,"end":5754.576,"text":"謝謝主席。有請我們行政院卓榮台院長。請卓院長備詢。請我們法務部啊。請法務部長備詢。院長好。莊委員好。我想今天這個整個覆議案在立法院將在整部法律審完以後進入這樣的一個程序我個人有很大的一個感慨"},{"start":5778.103,"end":5806.672,"text":"那這一次整個國會職權的一個行使法就是國會改革的一個法案衍生到最後民眾認為這是一個國會擴權的一個法案為什麼說覺得很感慨呢民主進步黨不管是在野或者是我們執政其實國會改革民主進步黨都有提出方案我們在野的時候我們也提出我們執政了以後我們在國會多數我們也提出"},{"start":5807.772,"end":5830.399,"text":"為什麼到最後都沒有繼續審議下去了?國會沒有共識社會沒有共識我舉我們在第九 第十屆第九屆我就跟我們現在的國安部長我們的顧立雄當初他在立法委員的時候我們就共提過版本"},{"start":5831.684,"end":5858.63,"text":"那這一次的一個通過的一個版本我相信社會大眾眼睛都很血亮程序上那當然就不用講了有很大的一個問題充滿的重大的一個瑕疵在這個內容裡面我相信從行政院所提出的這些覆議理由裡面也去感受到了這違反了整個權力的一個分立確實你去從整本憲法你去把它翻了你很難去看到說你找不到不是很難看到"},{"start":5859.33,"end":5867.333,"text":"總統對立法院職來負責這樣的一個條文在啊剛剛院長你去給約恩茲去給他拐你知道嗎約恩茲 約委員吶 要切糖沒通啦糖沒通啦我為什麼這樣講呢他舉的叫做法國啊他講的是第五共和啊他沒有再往前去看他的第三共和第四共和其實講的就是在講內核制"},{"start":5883.309,"end":5909.352,"text":"過去人類還沒進步的時候哪有什麼叫憲政體制那接下來皇權時代那你更別想有什麼憲政體制皇帝去破壞到人民破壞到貴族以後還有老百姓起來反抗然後就要求君主立憲甚至到最後這個頒布憲法了那過去在我們"},{"start":5911.304,"end":5925.358,"text":"憲法的規定裏面,我們國會的席次,我相信院長你很清楚嘛,你在做的時候幾席?225席吧?到了2004年第七次修憲的時候,從222席砍到113席,院長你誠實地講啦,什麼管你還記不記得?"},{"start":5932.329,"end":5939.951,"text":"本來憲法五十七條的規定確實是國會至上喔!憲法五十七條的規定本來是講說我們立法院對於行政院的重大政策有意見的時候我們都可以邀請你們來做變更喔!"},{"start":5962.498,"end":5978.166,"text":"我來修正砍掉了停止適用了因為總統選出來了不然我從小時候在看到立法委員在質詢每一個人站在這個地方都跟你說我代表民意你挖坑了代表民意這次民意就反撲了這次民意就反撲了但是我要請教院長的就是說"},{"start":5984.355,"end":6002.551,"text":"接下來立法院很有可能在野黨這樣聯手國會的多數會通過很多可判的法案院長你可能會創下有史以來提附議最多的一個院長你怎樣看待立法跟行政兩院這樣的一個對立你有什麼選擇嗎?我問你"},{"start":6005.882,"end":6032.398,"text":"最重要的還是希望在大院裡面的討論能夠真的透過民主程序大家好好的討論很嚴謹的來審視所有的法案這樣的話出來的法案大家依法行政都心裡都沒有任何的壓力人民也會接受這樣國家才能往前走今天在覆議案我們才在主條所以應該要透過民主程序好好的討論覆議案部長不是嗎"},{"start":6034.588,"end":6057.248,"text":"我在司法法治委員會我很清楚啊沒有一條主條過啊就只有大體討論啊大體討論我就提出來了我說開什麼玩笑啊本來按照在野黨的提案裡面啊藐視國會的部分啊人民是處三年以下有嫉妒刑官員是一年嗎還記得吧那是我講的 他們是笑的"},{"start":6061.656,"end":6064.037,"text":"有壓力了那一條趕快拿掉人民的憤怒是有用的啦但是我必須要請教的就是說部長"},{"start":6081.718,"end":6102.53,"text":"你若說你這感覺我出現的,叫政人來,不管是民事、不管是刑事,傳政人來,好,那你傳我去啊?我不要去啊?你了不起命狙題嘛,對不對?合法草法的狙題你傳我去我就不去,你就把我狙題去了,我到了法庭上,我還是拒絕證言"},{"start":6106.357,"end":6126.972,"text":"可以吧?可以我來看有沒有拒絕政院的這些法律的部分是阿,然後處罰是多少?罰款的三萬啦!立法院說變多少,那十萬啦!那很怪啦!這個邏輯我到現在都想不通法院罰人民,三萬我們立法院叫來,你給我介紹,十萬這哪通啊!如果你找我去傳喚證人"},{"start":6134.997,"end":6138.16,"text":"我虛偽跟你陳述我跟你亂講一通跟你講顛倒你要處罰我對不對我到時候律師提出來跟你講你忘記拒絕無效"},{"start":6149.332,"end":6149.912,"text":"韓國瑜院長韓國瑜院長韓國瑜院長"},{"start":6177.214,"end":6187.139,"text":"陳肯要來請教院長就是說,這明天早上,你可能這次覆議案很可能輸的你知道嗎?不會過的你知道嗎?你們準備實現了沒有?今天繼續努力,明天如果覆議案結果出來之後,有必要尋求憲法上另外途徑的救濟,我們會再經過思考。這個條文的設計啊,草率啦。"},{"start":6202.932,"end":6231.761,"text":"我看到在黨的朋友一直在講說還要我們的我們這個整個調查權的行使啊就跟人家德國的調查委員會法就很類似的是啊但是人家整本啊調查委員會法裡面對證人的一個整個裡面的一個規定啊規本規特那我們現在是把辛辛苦苦來協助國會調查的人來協助的人我們現在認為說武器好用了弄了一大堆處罰的規定"},{"start":6233.616,"end":6253.235,"text":"這個對於人權的保障,這個太過於草率了。剛剛岳元智還要講,你覺得我們中華民國什麼體制,我們這些亂七八糟的體制,我也不知道。我也算熟讀憲法,如果內閣制,你根本就沒有機會當院長。"},{"start":6255.506,"end":6279.233,"text":"我不是這樣說今天如果內閣制今天就應該你國民黨跟民眾黨你們就推一個來當行政院院長現在就是不是內閣制在卓榮泰院長來當行政院長不需要國會的一個同意嘛 對不對那好啦 總統也選出來了那總統當然他具備有名義啊但是呢"},{"start":6280.228,"end":6298.484,"text":"我們看到這麼多的條文的一個設計裡面,荒腔走板。昨天副分局也特別講,說那個四十六條之後,我們就全部是照你民主進步黨的條文通過的。是啊,他的再修正案通過了以後,他還講說三黨共識,一看就跪了。"},{"start":6303.089,"end":6323.238,"text":"在偵查跟審判裁判確定前確實不能去侵害司法權這一條就用我們的條文啦可是接下來四十七條布丁你要怎麼做?他該說可以調副本這個條文通過以後你法務部你怎麼辦?你怎麼辦?你給還是不給?你給副本還是不給副本?就只好配合辦理你說啦"},{"start":6325.728,"end":6326.088,"text":"所以喔 你看"},{"start":6349.973,"end":6349.993,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":6379.326,"end":6386.952,"text":"謝謝莊委員、謝謝卓院長下一位我們請林德福委員質詢"},{"start":6428.344,"end":6434.403,"text":"謝謝江副院長,是不是請這個卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":6443.663,"end":6467.875,"text":"平委員好主委長你好首先還是恭喜你就任行政院長滿一個月那今天本期第一次在執行台這邊與您對話但也遺憾就是行政院反對國會改革行政院沒有那罔顧新國會新民意啊忽視國會改革的重要性因為一憲法"},{"start":6468.795,"end":6484.792,"text":"行政院為國家最高的行政機關一憲法徵修條文行政院院長由總統任命之過去蘇貞昌前院長接受蔡英文前總統任命為行政院長時"},{"start":6486.013,"end":6505.323,"text":"被外界稱為蔡蘇共治認為蘇貞昌當行政院長時有一定的主導權而非僅做蔡英文前總統的傳聲筒或傀儡那本席我也期許卓院長在行政院長任內要走出自己的路"},{"start":6506.363,"end":6507.384,"text":"左院長有什麼看法?"},{"start":6530.169,"end":6550.522,"text":"謝謝委員前半段的鼓勵我們正是在往這條方向走行政院要負擔起全國最高行政機關的責任對立法院負責更要對人民負責總統是民選的總統他有來自人民對他的支持跟期待那我們會分別不同在各個城市上面做好未來福國利民的相關工作"},{"start":6551.431,"end":6579.842,"text":"因為這次在覆議案的第二條就是行政院說是混淆雙首長制執行總統這個違憲那其實行政院針對國會改革修法提出覆議本期其實我早就看出來一點也不意外在立法院審查國會改革修法過程中其實民進黨這個一再阻擾修法"},{"start":6580.422,"end":6604.944,"text":"干擾議事的整個進行害怕民進黨過去執政八年不是你當院長遭到民眾所質疑的議題包括疫苗的採購、高端的護航、小吃店的快篩、超市的買單、光電的弊案等等重新再被檢視這次立法院職權行使法與刑法修正案"},{"start":6606.245,"end":6623.851,"text":"有在立法院討論有專案報告也有公聽會也有委員會的審查有朝野協商也有院會表決甚至於也有通過很多民進黨修正的版本這些動議修正動議的版本所以說這個"},{"start":6631.099,"end":6636.625,"text":"此次國會改革法案的重點讓總統來做國情報告常態化是符合憲法規範聽證會僅限於公務相關與一般民眾根本無礙"},{"start":6649,"end":6671.35,"text":"對一般民眾根本就沒有影響那人事同意權實質的審查避免政府仇庸式的來充數而且是國會代表人民那當然政府應該謙卑的來面對人民禁止官員虛偽的陳述那政院難道要保護官員有說謊的權利嗎"},{"start":6673.431,"end":6688.287,"text":"所以說行政院所提的這些覆議案幾項理由我想昨天已經有很多在野黨的委員一一的跟您質詢不過就像平行線一樣兩邊都沒有交集"},{"start":6689.529,"end":6689.809,"text":"卓議員有什麼看法?"},{"start":6704.974,"end":6724.367,"text":"第一個委員先前剛剛所指出的一些案件現在已經在司法機關的調查當中並沒有但是遙遙無期司法機關調查到目前為止是遙遙無期已經過了一個總統的界限而且你看這個當初人民質疑的"},{"start":6724.907,"end":6731.629,"text":"國會或人民甚至行政院都可以對司法機關希望他們能夠儘速的把真相釐清但就算怎麼樣立法院也不能超越司法院"},{"start":6749.674,"end":6752.755,"text":"所以國會可以代替司法機關嗎?就算這樣子國會也不可以代替司法機關嗎?"},{"start":6769.321,"end":6770.102,"text":"在聽證過程當中有這個規定就是請來詢問的對象"},{"start":6794.221,"end":6797.943,"text":"是有相關的喔那個 卓院長幾乎啦 是有針對性的才有我跟你講不要齁 把那個 等於是亂點煙灘譜"},{"start":6809.428,"end":6813.992,"text":"其實大家心知肚明今天是針對問題探討問題要解決問題所以說才有國會改革的五個法案但是因為執政黨他為什麼一直黨一直推"},{"start":6826.223,"end":6850.171,"text":"主要就是過去的弊端總統大家心知肚明嘛今天就是怕被查所以說今天才用盡各種的方法來阻擾那個卓院長您知道過去蔡英文前總統被稱為神隱小英嗎對不對因為媒體報導蔡英文745天沒有接受國內媒體的訪問逃避媒體第四權"},{"start":6851.311,"end":6876.086,"text":"的監督賴清哲總統過去在擔任台南市長期間經合法邀請拒不列席的議會首開地方自治史上官員集體不進議會這樣的一個惡例傷害現代的整個民主法治治國的基本原則異業憲法與地方制度法"},{"start":6878.514,"end":6902.241,"text":"這樣的一個規範那其實這個地方自治團體首長行政權之基本界限本來就應該那結果他是架空地方的立法權那動搖民主社會基本的核心價值違法事證明確被監察院彈劾那懲戒委員會最後認定賴清德違法失職決議給他申誡"},{"start":6906.082,"end":6921.986,"text":"這次立法院所通過的國會改革重點之一讓總統國情報告常態化立法院於每年集會時要邀請總統到立法院就國家大政方針重要的政策議題來進行國情報告"},{"start":6925.743,"end":6944.911,"text":"賴清德昨天宣布說總統府將成立氣候變遷、健康台灣還有包括全民的防衛三大委員會這三個委員會將由賴總統領軍具體推動各項改革工作其實氣候變遷、健康台灣"},{"start":6946.55,"end":6965.06,"text":"根本都是行政院的業務這個跟總統有什麼關係外界質疑賴總統要當太上行政院的院長還是不放心行政院左院長你的領導這難道不是有權無責的實際案例嗎難道總統不應該來立法院做國賓這些報告嗎"},{"start":6973.724,"end":6993.733,"text":"總統依照憲法是可以來立法院做國際報告但是不宜把它定為定期的義務而且急問急答剛剛委員提到台南賴市長當時不進台南的議會他是針對台南議會的結構上的不良他產生了一個勇氣你有意見有人有一見但是這件事情到現在還有人記憶猶新"},{"start":6995.494,"end":7020.245,"text":"認為這是一個勇氣的對抗,但是大家可以有評價,沒有關係過去從來沒有啦,那個卓院長不管是哪一個政黨的立法委員、立委都是代表民意那總統對人民開出的政策支票,立法委員對總統提問,讓總統來回答政策支票兌現與否,難道這樣就違反憲法嗎?"},{"start":7023.346,"end":7048.278,"text":"難道這樣就違反憲法嗎?總統可以來國情報告屬於憲法上的權利因為我想人民無法接受這樣的說法還是因為賴清德總統根本不願意國情報告不想直球對決也想菜歸賴誰等於是就是當過去小英總統的這個就是神明小英"},{"start":7058.504,"end":7066.655,"text":"好,謝謝林委員、謝謝左院長報告全院委員會休息十分鐘,現在休息"},{"start":7690.456,"end":7695.799,"text":"報告全院委員會,現在繼續開會,請黃婕委員發言好,謝謝主席,我們請部長,先請院長再請部長請卓院長"},{"start":7721.333,"end":7721.735,"text":"法務部長請備詢委員好"},{"start":7725.606,"end":7754.45,"text":"好 謝謝今天其實我身上別著青鳥行動的徽章手上也帶著青鳥行動的手環就是因為我們其實民進黨團的所有立委都承諾所有青鳥們我們一定要把大家的聲音帶進來因為這三天還是有許多青鳥們要走上街為的就是要抗議藍白在立法院的傲慢抗議他們在這個立法院裡面是如此的阿爸"},{"start":7754.93,"end":7755.21,"text":"國民黨民眾黨"},{"start":7776.417,"end":7778.179,"text":"國民黨說這個過程審查了13次怎麼會不民主但他們沒有說的是沒有實質審查嘛沒有實質審查就算你審了100次也都是假的嘛"},{"start":7795.698,"end":7821.076,"text":"然後他們說對阿定罪的是法官不是立委阿但他們沒說的是為什麼立法委員可以移送公務員可以開罰人民嘛所以其實他們現在用的話術都是話講一半都用這種這種詐欺術在欺騙人民所以我希望今天我們院長部長一定要把這個事情好好講清楚"},{"start":7822.914,"end":7850.076,"text":"現在啊其實國民黨民眾黨都一直說他們說民調說有57%的民眾支持國會改革但是其實這幾天也有很多新的民調顯示說例如說從幫我看一下16號這個中華亞太基金交流協會說六成以上的民眾支持復議然後17號台灣民意基金會也有說51%的民眾支持行政院復議那到19號"},{"start":7851.297,"end":7875.814,"text":"昨天也有進新聞的民調說47.4的民眾來支持覆議也就是代表說其實這幾天民眾都是表達支持行政院來提出覆議的那我先請教一下院長你覺得為什麼民眾一方面大力的支持國會改革但是又支持行政院提覆議呢你認為這中間有沒有矛盾"},{"start":7877.353,"end":7905.703,"text":"國會改革四個字它絕對是大家一致都支持的因為這四個字代表讓國會更有效率立法品質更高國會議員對自己的約束更高這當然是國人之所希望但是看到這樣的審查的過程剛剛有委員提到我沒有時間答覆我們從媒體上新聞上看到最多在討論過程當中最多的就是兩樣一個就是條文保留"},{"start":7906.55,"end":7923.716,"text":"一個就是停止討論這對委員的權益傷害有多大對條文內容的品質是完全沒有辦法落實跟好好討論的所以民眾也看到這一點再看到表決那個時候賽場人數跟表決人數不符合認為那個表決基本上是重大重大的瑕疵"},{"start":7924.176,"end":7950.414,"text":"所以人民願意站出來真的大家辛苦了我真的希望我們在這裡好好的努力讓大家不必要這麼辛苦國會可以做到的事情我們一起來把它做好好 謝謝院長所以啦你問我說你支不支持國會改革大家都支持啊我也支持啊院長也支持啊但大家不支持的是藍白版的國會改革嘛不支持的是這麼黑箱的程序嘛所以其實希望藍白不要再用這種話術來欺騙人民喔"},{"start":7952.856,"end":7967.666,"text":"那當然前面這種這個惡法裡面的這種亂象大家已經講很多了那我今天來請教一個重點就是說這部法律到底要怎麼運作呢為什麼說這部法律很難運作我們先看這個投影片"},{"start":7968.707,"end":7993.224,"text":"請教一下院長這個是一個選擇題請問下列何者違反質詢的定義A是徐巧欣說的答覆超過質詢範圍外B吳宗憲說的透過判例來建立C蔣萬安說的被詢者不能反問質詢者D黃國昌說的官員回答說你在那邊叫什麼叫"},{"start":7994.468,"end":8016.055,"text":"ABCD請問正確解答為何?請院長答覆。無法定義嗎?以上皆非嘛!因為這四種說法之間彼此就是矛盾的,連國民黨自己的陣營裡面都沒有辦法去統合一個共識說什麼叫做反質詢。"},{"start":8017.947,"end":8034.143,"text":"按照這個徐巧欣的說法他說官員可以反問只是不能超過雜詢的範圍黃國昌說的是說你可以反問也可以超過質詢範圍但重點是不能兇官員但他自己可以咆哮自己可以插嘴然後吳宗憲說這些說法都不對我們要等"},{"start":8034.784,"end":8058.065,"text":"有判例之後才能知道說到底反質詢的定義為何所以當現在他們自己陣營裡面都南轅北轍的時候真的有官員因為反質詢到時候要上法院請問這個到底要怎麼判啊請問法院說請問立法院反質詢到底什麼定義到時候我們立法院到底要怎麼回答呢"},{"start":8058.906,"end":8078.553,"text":"是要說反正法院你們先判了再說啦判了我們就知道到底反質詢是什麼了然後我們現在法院要找國際上的立法例哇找不到因為沒有史無前例最強大的反質詢定義就在台灣的立法院到現在還生不出一個定義請問到底要怎麼執行啊"},{"start":8080.194,"end":8097.274,"text":"然後這個25條除了說反質詢也有很荒謬的他說官員不得隱匿拒絕答覆也不能虛偽答覆嘛因為這樣子就是藐視國會那我想在座所有的部會首長到時候都會答說什麼尊重大院的看法"},{"start":8097.734,"end":8118.425,"text":"尊重委員的意見每個人就會像一個NPC一樣到時候只會回答這一句因為你不管有沒有回答都有可能犯了隱匿、拒絕答覆或虛偽陳述所以最後造成的結果就是所有的部會首長大家都是像這種沒有回答的回答似是而非的回答"},{"start":8119.363,"end":8146.403,"text":"好這是一個剛剛院長你這樣算答對啦然後再來第二個例子我想要問一下部長這就是這個法條最讓人覺得漢格的地方47條他們照藍白的版本過46之二卻使用民進黨的版本請問一下47跟46條之二部長你覺得到底如果到時候這兩條漢格了到底哪一條要先適用"},{"start":8148.453,"end":8172.73,"text":"以專業的法律見解來告訴我們當同一部法律出現這麼矛盾的內容的時候到底要怎麼執行46條之二它是它是只要是以以那個整個調查權的那個不能預約的那個調查目的是要發表似乎是這個是算是OK的但是47條的它是又要要求政府機關"},{"start":8173.73,"end":8200.061,"text":"法人、團體、社會關係人要提供資料跟檔案等等而且要提供副本那這邊還可以證言另外這個還有一些的那個還有一個處罰到48條的處罰那我想說立法院的調查權的行使只是一個補充性的一個權利而已而且必須要跟他的根據585號解釋也必須要跟他的立法院的職權有重大關聯者"},{"start":8201.041,"end":8216.401,"text":"而不是像這樣恣意的,如果保暖性不配合的話就恣意的一個處罰。那這部分是我們非常擔心的,這個是會引起社會的一個不安。所以我認為這部分的確是他的非常的不妥之處。"},{"start":8217.802,"end":8228.473,"text":"所以啦,我們從一開始就說這一部法就是一個四不像的拼裝車嘛,就相差兩條,四十六之二到四十七條,隔了這麼近,結果兩條適用的範圍卻是打架的。"},{"start":8233.338,"end":8253.326,"text":"這個到時候怎麼執行啊?我就問個例子啦,就是說,到時候有立委要跟你們要一些國防的機密資料,然後你們說這個是行政首長的特定的機密不公開的行政特權,那請問他們覺得說你們這樣就是已經必須要對你們進行懲罰,他就開始開罰你,罰到你給。"},{"start":8259.851,"end":8288.327,"text":"對這次就是像那個46條之二事實上他似乎是沒辦法去做一個處理但是47條那個以這個是跟就預約到監察權這個監察權的問題就監察對46條之二的情形其實他有相當的一個牽涉就是他不會去碰這些問題但是47條這部分他看起來不管是有46條之二的那種情形譬如說偵查中審判中或在訴院中"},{"start":8288.707,"end":8290.549,"text":"沒錯,照部長的見解也是認為說像藍白的版本這個47條問題之大是這樣子的吧?"},{"start":8312.674,"end":8313.115,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8352.45,"end":8356.393,"text":"謝謝王委員下一位我們請王育敏委員質詢"},{"start":8366.249,"end":8368.931,"text":"謝謝主席。我們是不是有請卓院長。請卓院長備選。公務員好。"},{"start":8381.394,"end":8405.917,"text":"主委院長好,院長我先請教你喔,你剛剛在回答的時候有提到說你是支持國會改革的對不對?當然,是的。好,那但是你在上午回答這個有委員質詢的時候,你這次提出來的覆議案又是所有的條文你通通都覆議,沒有一條是你認同的,你不覺得這樣子是蠻矛盾的嗎?"},{"start":8406.417,"end":8432.238,"text":"在這次通過的版本裡面真的沒有一個條文它是可以落實的嗎?每一個條文都必須提出覆議嗎?請委員能夠體諒我們這個是最整部法案整部的法案提出覆議希望重新檢測內部因為像剛剛提到的這個它就有條文之間矛盾之處所以我們就整部法案但不需要全部都提覆議啊第一個本席要就教你的"},{"start":8432.998,"end":8433.018,"text":"聽證調查權"},{"start":8450.032,"end":8472.27,"text":"那在這個部分今天中華民國我們在國會可以邁出改革的地步讓國會擁有聽證調查權我個人認為這樣的改革是跟世界接軌是往前邁進但是連這個部分行政院都要提出復議難道院長你不認同國會應該擁有聽證調查權嗎"},{"start":8475.393,"end":8501.758,"text":"其他國家有的國會的設計是沒有質詢權而有聽證權所以聽證權就幾乎是代表了國會議員對官員或是一般關係人或是社會上重要的關係人他們對他的一種互動的關係所以有這樣的設計那台灣我們自己我們在人事同意權上面有類似這樣的一個行為但是無論如何他的執行要參照4至585號裡面的規定他應該在特定的範圍之內"},{"start":8503.098,"end":8506.921,"text":"舉行他的聽證﹚他的裡面的這個調查調閱聽證的這個過程都要受到憲法這個設置的上的規定"},{"start":8511.713,"end":8533.375,"text":"當然,在立法院裡面我們通過的聽證調查權也不是漫無目的,它有設定範圍,立法委員也沒有那麼閒,一定是針對人民重大關心的議題才會去召開相關的聽證會,立法院也不是365天通通都在開會,會把一些不重要的"},{"start":8534.336,"end":8547.772,"text":"並不涉及國家利益的事情拿來國會殿堂去召開聽證會所以這個部分你可以看到這些先進的國家這樣的制度行之多年包括美國是我們的好朋友"},{"start":8549.073,"end":8578.613,"text":"所謂的這個聽證會我想大家從各大媒體裡面都可以看到美國國會召開聽證會的過程多麼的嚴謹不管你是企業或是個人跟這個案子重大案子相關的人你到了這個聽證會你就必須做真實的陳述我想這樣子才可以達到真的去追求真相然後幫人民把關的目的那這個部分呢我們可以看到在民意支持度的部分"},{"start":8579.793,"end":8605.066,"text":"國會改革其實民意支持度一直都是高的無論是在這個法案的審議之前所做的民調或是這個法案已經通過之後最新的台灣民意基金會他所提到的各項支持的比例你都可以看到立法院召開聽證會是將近六成的民眾這麼高的民意他們是支持的這個代表什麼"},{"start":8605.686,"end":8620.251,"text":"代表人民他希望國會是有實權的國會希望人民的國會是可以代表人民真正去監督政府而這樣子的一個民意我希望這個執政黨"},{"start":8620.871,"end":8639.864,"text":"不要忽視這樣的一個名義今天剛剛有這個民進黨的委員說青鳥他代表青鳥在這個國會這邊要表達他們的聲音但是這個社會不只只有青鳥的聲音這個社會是多元的聲音而從這樣的民調我們看出來"},{"start":8640.484,"end":8640.644,"text":"主席"},{"start":8663.442,"end":8683.06,"text":"作為外交部部長的林佳雄部長其實針對國會改革也都有提出過自己的意見跟看法過去的民進黨我覺得很敢在一些的意見主張上面提出自己的看法我認為這是一個進步的價值但是不要因為換了位置而換了腦袋"},{"start":8684.221,"end":8704.024,"text":"就是過去主張國會改革有它的這個正當性包括蔡英文總統都認為國會應該擁有完整的聽證調查權才能落實完整這樣的制度但是怎麼會因為現在是在野黨提出之後通過之後就全盤否定了這樣的一個國會改革"},{"start":8705.205,"end":8706.566,"text":"一個立法的過程應該有多種的因素"},{"start":8730.718,"end":8742.223,"text":"這個部分院長先讓我講完我還要讓你看一下現在您的搭檔您的副院長鄭麗君副院長過去她擔任立法委員的時候我很認同她講的她說要讓立委有更完備的職權包括聽證權與調查權"},{"start":8749.96,"end":8765.401,"text":"另外一個他提到了就是如我們要讓國會立委職權更行完備而不是像缺了牙的老虎否則弱勢的國會要如何監督政府"},{"start":8766.222,"end":8786.529,"text":"這是鄭麗君副院長在擔任立法委員的時候她在公聽會上面一再強調一定要讓國會擁有聽證權與調查權我覺得她當時講的這個話應該是發自內心的話我不知道她現在立場改變了我希望她沒有這個是"},{"start":8787.549,"end":8787.789,"text":"林佳龍議員"},{"start":8807.625,"end":8833.586,"text":"立法委員他現在是部長當時的主張這個跟國民黨的主張都沒有任何的背離另外一個是現在的監察委員也是過去的立法委員我在第八屆曾經跟他同事我常常就聽到他講他很羨慕美國他說美國的國會議員都可以召開聽證會有法律強制性結論也有法律強制性"},{"start":8834.326,"end":8856.307,"text":"他一直覺得台灣沒有辦法這個召開聽證會這個立法委員呢這個就像狗吠火車一樣立法權對上行政權如果沒有任何的這個監督力的話他說我們只是立法委員只是可以叫得比較大聲但是火車還是開走了"},{"start":8856.947,"end":8874.361,"text":"這樣的形容很貼切很傳神這個是為什麼立法院這一次的國會改革必須賦予國會議員擁有聽證權跟調查權因為唯有這樣子才可以落實真正的監督"},{"start":8874.941,"end":8891.871,"text":"但是本席真的覺得非常的遺憾在關鍵的這些聽證權、調查權上面現在被抹黑、被誤解、被造謠然後被說成這個是對人民權益的侵害會對多數的人民產生這個"},{"start":8894.853,"end":8918.255,"text":"這個權益上面的侵害我覺得這些通通都是背離事實的一個說法今天國會改革我想是讓立法權他的監督權可以更完整這個絕對不是要去凌駕行政權沒有在我們目前的權力分立裡面事實上這個卓院長過去也擔任過立法委員"},{"start":8918.715,"end":8940.724,"text":"你現在要擔任院長其實你應該深刻體認到行政權真的是獨大行政權擁有很多的資源其實真的很多民意代表你只能說一說而已對於行政院沒有辦法造成實質的約束力你心裡應該非常的清楚有擔任過民意代表跟擔任過政務官的一定明白這個道理"},{"start":8941.084,"end":8969.712,"text":"而今天只是強化了國會的監督權力但是要變成整個社會付出這麼大的社會成本互相對抗今天立法院變成什麼樣子周遭都交通管制還要連續三天還要一再的號召這個社會動員大家來到這裡這個真的是現在執政團隊想要的嗎現在太多的國家的問題需要去解決"},{"start":8970.452,"end":8995.094,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8996.222,"end":9000.155,"text":"黃委員下一位我們請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":9025.587,"end":9051.349,"text":"主席有請卓院長請卓院長貴賓委員好院長好,院長辛苦我想院長這次行政院提出的這個覆議案本席有大概歸類幾個原則一個民主原則、權力分立原則、法律明確性的原則、比例原則、正當法律程序等等"},{"start":9052.267,"end":9080.914,"text":"那其實很巧的齁其實在本院齁其實在整個司法委員會當中呢周恩來秘書長的這個報告內容當中也特別強調齁如果要針對這個被提名的人陳述不實或者是要藐視國會規定處理或移送其他的行政法院調查的話方式不一但是要符合法律明確性正當法律程序原則比例原則這見解跟你都一樣"},{"start":9082.492,"end":9088.443,"text":"行政院都相同那這樣的情況底下我們還是很遺憾的通過這樣的一步"},{"start":9089.346,"end":9115.4,"text":"這一個違憲亂政的一個立法院職權行使法可是這部法通過之後呢老實說啊到底啊這些難以盡忠的周萬蘭秘書長所做的提示啊他們會不會聽得下去這幾天我聽他們的質詢內容還有私底下請教他們啊老實講我對於這一個週五的這個覆議案的表決老實說我是悲觀的"},{"start":9116.633,"end":9121.241,"text":"因為私底下我問他們的時候他們說他們如果贊成的話形同於政治自殺"},{"start":9122.867,"end":9146.597,"text":"所以我覺得院長你可能要有心理準備即便是周恩來這麼說即便有百名的法律學者這樣連署但是我覺得藍營或者是民眾黨的這群朋友還是執迷不悟啦那執迷不悟的情況底下我覺得我們面對可能最壞的打算就是後面的這個救濟程序要怎麼進行"},{"start":9147.674,"end":9167.439,"text":"就於程序進行裡頭,就是人民除了憤怒之外,就如同昨天郭智慧部長所說的科技業很恐慌,其實不只科技業很恐慌,各行各業都很恐慌,他們隨時都有可能會被調來立法院。而這樣的情況底下,我看過這個相關的過去的案例,"},{"start":9168.579,"end":9193.066,"text":"如果假設明天覆議失敗的話,總統大約是什麼時候公佈呢?總統如果連署的話,一般而言他會公佈在總統府的公報。總統府的公報一般而言都是在每周三的時候公佈。如果周三的時候公佈的話,如果生效日的話,應該在下周五就生效。"},{"start":9194.173,"end":9209.523,"text":"下週一旦生效的話,這部職權行使法生效日的開始,就是目前國民黨或民眾黨說要趕快成立某某某某主題的一個調查委員會開始,簡單的講就是可以公設刑堂的開始。"},{"start":9210.512,"end":9231.365,"text":"公社刑法開始當他擁有這個法律的時候你知道目前的一些資本市場的精精病也好或者市場派跟公司派也好的爭奪隨時立法院都有可能介入的可能所以我想請教一下院長面對人民的恐慌那你提出覆議案"},{"start":9232.265,"end":9234.206,"text":"當然如果在覆議案沒有辦法順利成立的話那"},{"start":9261.715,"end":9262.975,"text":"法律生效前提出釋憲還是法律生效後提出釋憲?"},{"start":9280.382,"end":9303.04,"text":"生效後?生效後隨時出現。週五以後,你會有一個禮拜的時間。那這樣子的話,你一旦生效後,我覺得就是發現有一個很可能會有一個空窗期,院長。也就是說你如果釋憲之後,在釋憲結果出來之前,這就是一個空窗期。為什麼?應該你也會同時去進行憲法法庭的暫時處分的一個申請,對不對?"},{"start":9304.941,"end":9332.028,"text":"如果暫時處分的這個申請的話法官他到他的這個憲法法庭的話他會有一個審查要件是否有成立然後再進入實質的審查嘛所以一旦下個禮拜五生效的話到整個暫時處分的裁定出來之前就是一個很長的空窗期無法預期的空窗期對不對那這段時間的空窗期我不曉得那個院長有沒有什麼因應的方式如果"},{"start":9335.049,"end":9354.969,"text":"行政兩院以及社會都在看我們對憲法的認知跟憲法的遵守不應該在這個時候做出太多目前大家在爭議事項的行為否則會引起更大的憲政的紛爭甚至引起人民更大的反感我覺得我們都應該有這樣的共識"},{"start":9356.15,"end":9378.143,"text":"院長我聽得出來你的決心但是本席還是要適時的提醒你有兩個空窗期一個空窗期呢就是生效之後在整個憲法法庭裁定之前我假設他裁定是會凍結啦假設是這樣最好的方式但是還有一個是六個月的時效之後憲法那個試製案還沒有出來之後這是第二個空窗期你總共有兩個空窗期"},{"start":9379.076,"end":9406.56,"text":"我們面對這兩個空窗期的情況底下我看到在野黨有做出一些討論他說如果要行使調查權的話一來立法院要設立所謂的調查官調查官是牽扯到所謂的修改組織法的問題二來他會跟行政院借調人員來支援如果國民黨民眾黨要跟你借調刑事局調查局檢察官那您同不同意"},{"start":9408.103,"end":9420.678,"text":"我們會以行政工作主要的人力規劃跟所有的政策推動為主所以你這個理由是說你行政業務過於繁忙所以不予同意的意思囉"},{"start":9422.145,"end":9443.844,"text":"我會以這樣的思考為優先為優先啦齁我其實啊齁我跟您提一個案例啦齁319這一個增調會條例當中的第11條增調會可以向行政院借調人員而行政院機關不能拒絕可是這一個條款在4字號633的時候已經宣告違憲"},{"start":9446.13,"end":9465.215,"text":"已經宣告有限了嗎?院長,這基本上也是違反權力分立跟制衡的原則啦。如果是這樣子的話,院長,你大可說你有權依照這個四字號第633號的部分,可以決定要不要借人啊?就可以拒絕啊。"},{"start":9470.523,"end":9494.318,"text":"委員提醒讓我們更覺得行政工作還是以行政工作為主我們只要把自己的工作做好行政工作當然是最重要關鍵可是在這時候你要凸顯這部法令的荒謬性你看到底立法院大還行政院大最近大家都比大的另外對人民最關心的不是比大小"},{"start":9495.134,"end":9518.266,"text":"最重要人民關心的部分如果他被調到的話他收到這個罰單一來他沒有行政救濟的管道立法院本身沒有行政救濟的管道而且他也沒有執行的單位的你現在處罰人民十萬元他沒有繳交文件十萬元難道是傅坤祺要去要嗎還是韓國瑜要去討我相信不會輪到江啟臣副院長吧"},{"start":9520.219,"end":9542.522,"text":"就是說誰去追討這個罰款,那如果不服的話,唯一救濟的管道就是司法救濟的管道。司法救濟的管道,他還要去哪裡?不論你是被,你這個被處罰的對象,如果是在台北、高雄、花蓮、澎湖、金門,你都得跑到台北來打官司,因為立法院所在地,行政法院來這邊提出耶。你想這個立法院,一般的民眾會接受嗎?"},{"start":9544.295,"end":9566.815,"text":"更何況剛剛大家一直討論的一個部分我看到有好幾個在野的這個立法院提到說聽證會聽證權的部分是因為美國沒有執行權才會搞一個聽證權的嘛對不對院長就很理解是不是這樣子其實執行權如果要比大小執行權會比聽證權還小嗎"},{"start":9570.078,"end":9571.239,"text":"最高法院提出抵抗權作法"},{"start":9600.939,"end":9618.721,"text":"接下來的國眾兩黨一定會不斷地騷擾我覺得 院長你身為行政權的一個代表我認為你基本上內心的生態不只是要釋憲你要成為抵抗權的一個代表有沒有可能 院長"},{"start":9620.54,"end":9644.748,"text":"我首先是實踐憲法上賦予我的權利再來我要盡到我的政治責任憲法上的權利是捍衛憲政秩序政治責任是捍衛人民的基本權利你只要做最多方向踩住這個民主體制維護民主體制的基本立場的話全民都會支持你立法院民進黨黨團會支持你科總召委會提出事件跟你們站在同一陣線謝謝院長"},{"start":9648.493,"end":9656.441,"text":"好,謝謝郭委員,謝謝卓院長下一位我們請柯志恩委員質詢好,謝謝主席,我們下次請我們卓院長來,卓院長請備詢"},{"start":9675.353,"end":9675.693,"text":"科委員好"},{"start":9692.099,"end":9716.507,"text":"當然是調查權聽證權你們認為是違反權利分立的原則還有你認為我們現在修的職權行使法跟這個誓字585誓字729的意旨不合還有沒有無差別的調查民眾範圍太廣而且你認為這樣會讓我們有包山包海這都是院長你昨天認為的嗎沒錯吧到目前為止你的認知還是如此經過這麼多次的一個攻防你還是這麼認為嗎"},{"start":9718.287,"end":9718.747,"text":"謝謝委員是的"},{"start":9740.793,"end":9756.97,"text":"補助性權利必要性的權利這是非常重要的好不好部長這點先澄清而且呢我們不斷的告訴大家我們對於這個325585729的解釋內容我們有清楚的去規範"},{"start":9758.231,"end":9785.374,"text":"立法委員行使調查權應該尊重其他受憲法保障的這樣子一個獨立行使的權責所以不是包山包海特別已經提到的非常的清楚沒有所以呢在我們三讀通過的這46條之二裡面就有規範585解釋的不得行使調查權的狀況不是嗎所以已經有規範的為什麼告訴我們這叫包山包海呢沒有啊"},{"start":9785.974,"end":9788.415,"text":"事實上那個45條行使法第45條但是那個規範事實上47條就是突破到46條字"},{"start":9807.602,"end":9809.063,"text":"對,但是對四條之二它是有某些事不可以調查,但是47條已經突破到46條之二了。"},{"start":9827.11,"end":9841.874,"text":"好47條我們來看有關於那個層面我們可以來看我先請問一下昨天還有立法委員在這邊問你的時候說我們都不談325你還附和說對325然後呢還講了一句只有調閱權"},{"start":9843.922,"end":9873.445,"text":"我們是有調閱權嗎?我還是要提醒一下我們通常來說釋字325是立法權調閱的第一步325是陳水培跟趙少康那時候的一次連署的那他們認為還是不夠所以才會有585然後對於這個部分裡面做更明確的規範還有所謂的729729我說實在的我們柯總莊曾經使用過但是呢他是為了要調閱偵查中的卷宗被大法官打臉認為他是"},{"start":9873.905,"end":9873.925,"text":"毀憲亂政"},{"start":9890.106,"end":9892.528,"text":"我那個解釋法他已經已經完全已經擴充了已經超乎585號解釋35號解釋的一些的解釋的意識了"},{"start":9909.304,"end":9937.221,"text":"然後我們就繼續來看嘛有沒有超過這個意旨嘛我現在只針對一些被扭曲的部長我會給你時間解釋我們先來看看被扭曲的層面我一直不能夠接受院長你真的是一個很溫和的人可是你看到你們這些的人在外面講了一些讓人民覺得很恐慌的事情我覺得你有必要的時候應該私下跟他們說一下舉例來說你說我們可以人民可以無限制的被罰款罰到他破產為止"},{"start":9938.442,"end":9958.476,"text":"各位這個在我們585裡面就已經有特別提到了你是有辦法來對人民做一些對於一些違反協助調查義務者在科罰範圍之內你可以給予科罰的這個法金的部分我們不會把20年前大法官所解釋的把它法治化"},{"start":9959.316,"end":9983.816,"text":"還有呢你再來看一下大家最關切的沒關係院長讓我再把這個例子講完好不好還有一個我們就特別提到大家就會把這個所謂的人民的這個社會上的關心人員無限制的放大經濟部長上來講說科技也嫌咖啡系如果說國防部長你跟我說部隊長也嫌咖啡系因為這個所謂的社會關心人員可以是任何的人搞不好一個農業部長上來就說我們老農業也很恐懼"},{"start":9986.778,"end":10004.106,"text":"百公百業都在恐懼是這樣子嗎?社會關係人員就已經出現在我們目前的憲法67條裡面也就有提到了各種委員會可以邀請政府人員還有社會上有關係的人員到會來被選難道憲法講到社會有關係的人是違憲嗎?為什麼要把這樣的社會關係人員無限擴充到"},{"start":10013.951,"end":10029.706,"text":"大媽也可以早餐廳的老闆娘娘可以誰都可以那67條怎麼來解釋呢?其實最可怕的就是對這些協助調查義務的就是這些部隊團體或法人或社會關係的這些人員如果說他對這部分有"},{"start":10030.026,"end":10032.188,"text":"這部分跟那個585號解釋跟325號解釋以及63號解釋是不是有合乎到那個大法官解釋的意旨?"},{"start":10056.665,"end":10077.921,"text":"現在就來看一下嘛,你特別不斷的強調什麼四十七條,我只請問,原本的四十七條對四十七條違背的話有四十八條的大審議來啦,不要講,你剛剛從四十六二然後告訴我四十七條,我講四十七條你講到四十八條,我們可不可以好好focus在同一個條文上面你只告訴我,目前的四十七條跟我們職權行使法四十七條,差別在哪裡?"},{"start":10079.461,"end":10099.486,"text":"原本的法條跟新修的法條差別在哪裡?只有增訂對象,其他有關於提供了什麼副本等等之類,就在原本的法條當中,原本的法條當中,你要不要把它比對一下?有,這個本來是法條是只有相關文件,現在你擴寄到什麼資料檔案等等。"},{"start":10100.486,"end":10108.71,"text":"最可怕的為什麽要把民眾給...這個民眾也不是隨便的民眾都有,這是我剛剛不斷指稱你的,你是要把所謂的民眾無限上綱,這些民眾還是有他的限制存在,而且在憲法的這個層面當中,就有社會關係人的這樣的字眼出現,"},{"start":10126.297,"end":10135.308,"text":"所以不要先把解釋的一部分,到我們職權行使法你對於社會關係人又是另一番另一番的解釋,而且你在六十幾條的時候,在六十幾條的解釋的時候。部長,我現在在問你這些話裡面,社會關係人你被你無限這樣的酷刑到這樣的一個解釋,然後我們再來看,"},{"start":10144.6,"end":10164.137,"text":"所以我們對於這個憲法67條我個人覺得包括我們的政院長我不用再敘述他所講的任何一句話他其實就有做的很清楚的一個說明67條保障的規定當中有不符合立法院各委員的組織法都應該修掉那更不要說很多人也特別提到了像是李俊逸"},{"start":10165.097,"end":10188.712,"text":"這是目前為止。我覺得他講的也有道理啊。你看,體制寬沒道理,我們應該把透過休閒改變的時候,我們至少要把國會的調查權,還有實施調查權會用到的聽證制度,把它建立起來。他現在已經是監察院的秘書長,他已經在絕口不談廢監察院這件事情。但是我贊成他認為,如果你把調查權拿掉的話,就會讓立法院變成沒有牙的老鼠。"},{"start":10193.034,"end":10211.568,"text":"這都是過去斑斑可考所以院長我真的是要強調啊真的民進黨過去提出非常多現在你們當然為了要維護你們現在的說法就不但告訴他因為他們過去講的不是非常的完備然後呢所以說呢沒有出委員會但是呢還是一句話這些人"},{"start":10212.208,"end":10230.138,"text":"對你來說你都認識他們即使沒有功勞也有苦勞吧院長也有吧所有到位而且包括現在的陳總統陳前總統他腦袋瓜也算清楚他在1993年的時候一起爭取即使到今年他也會告訴我們說再爭取對不對這也是院長這個前總統所提到的"},{"start":10232.079,"end":10232.179,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10248.903,"end":10265.712,"text":"立委沒那麼大我們都一樣跟人民一樣大但是院長我今天非常的火大你知道為什麼嗎請問你的行政院退的法案到底是誰決定上次我們做的特別提到的學生輔導法明明就是讓所有的家長讓所有的輔導人員都希望你都趕快通過"},{"start":10268.353,"end":10268.493,"text":"主席"},{"start":10283.346,"end":10283.546,"text":"主席"},{"start":10319.346,"end":10324.41,"text":"好,謝謝柯委員下一位我們請李昆城委員質詢"},{"start":10347.525,"end":10348.688,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":10357.765,"end":10383.786,"text":"委員好現在場外還有青鳥運動的朋友們但是因為青鳥飛不進來立法院所以我們要在立法院裡面為他們來發聲然後請教一下院長因為我昨天有聽到你有跟許多的委員有對話請教一下院長什麼是藐視國會那什麼是反質詢國民黨說在修法通過之後會告訴人民"},{"start":10384.486,"end":10399.693,"text":"但是到目前為止,我們真的都不知道什麼是反質詢,什麼是藐視國會不過,國民黨的總召傅坤琦過去在當花蓮縣縣長的時候示範了相當精彩的這個藐視議會先請院長看一下影片"},{"start":10402.866,"end":10410.511,"text":"議會被尋時跟議員針鋒相對這是國民黨團總召傅昆齊擔任花蓮縣長時的影片近來藍白聯手三讀通過藐視國會罪不得反質詢但檢視傅昆齊在當花蓮縣長期間卻常常給議員吃排頭議員追問2018年花蓮地震善款流向傅昆齊不只搶話還以上對下教訓人"},{"start":10429.765,"end":10435.28,"text":"主席請你主持一下好嗎?我可以好好講完嗎?你什麼時候要好好講完?我告訴你,縣長!"},{"start":10436.983,"end":10440.844,"text":"另外這一次雖然收起炮火,但不管議員怎麼問,不回答就是不回答。"},{"start":10463.712,"end":10463.952,"text":"請教一下院長"},{"start":10486.083,"end":10496.514,"text":"這個你剛才看到這個傅坤祺還當花蓮縣長這個對議會的這個態度不是呢?不回答那不然就是議員還在問的時候就轉頭就走你認為這樣有沒有藐視議會?不應該學習這個是示範的一個錯誤的一個示範的一個對象"},{"start":10504.107,"end":10514.745,"text":"那其實到現在為止,我們也不知道什麼叫做藐視議會啊,藐視國會,或是什麼叫反執勳,但是我認為,至少副官姐在當花蓮現場的時候,是相當不尊重議會啦。"},{"start":10516.819,"end":10535.973,"text":"本刑事認為,國會改革不是國會擴權,更不是國會自肥。國民黨跟民眾黨聯手修立法院職權行使法,我認為這是一個擴權法案,如果真的受到人民的支持的話,國民黨跟民眾黨的支持度應該會升高,但是現在呢?"},{"start":10536.853,"end":10551.788,"text":"這個是不升反降甚至加起來比民進黨的支持度還低這表示人民認為說這個不是國會改革法案是國會擴權法案我們看一下藍白綠的支持度的校長你就知道了"},{"start":10552.847,"end":10567.538,"text":"民眾黨跟國民黨加起來的政黨支持度甚至比民進黨還低啦那所以這個院長請教一下這個以國會改革為名實際上是名為是國會擴權法案啦院長怎麼看"},{"start":10568.752,"end":10585.022,"text":"所以一般的人民會對這個法案所產生的後遺症相當的不安所以才有那麼多的朋友這一段時間一直踴躍的站出來但我們希望我們在國會裡面的努力能夠讓這些站出來的聲音得到紓解這個法案能夠有機會重新審視"},{"start":10587.227,"end":10608.597,"text":"院長昨天在臉書上有說,立法院為自己創設權利是侵犯到行政權、司法權、監察權,這也侵犯到國人的基本權利,這就是亂政。本席認為,這個擴權法案不僅亂政,還有毀憲。先請教一下院長,這次立法院所通過的國會擴權法案,你認為它是在修法還是在修憲?"},{"start":10610.146,"end":10628.695,"text":"這是修立法院裡面的職權行使法修憲的話有另外修憲的程序對 我就是認為說齁他們認為修憲的這個門檻太高所以沒辦法修憲但是藉著修法來達到要修憲的目的目前我們中華民國的憲法還是五權憲法嘛"},{"start":10629.395,"end":10645.225,"text":"但是這次修法修成立法院獨大侵害到行政院、司法院、監察院的權利然後侵犯到執行權、調查權、聽證權的行使這些都違反到憲法權利分立的一個原則"},{"start":10646.428,"end":10669.281,"text":"就這幾項這個調查權、聽證權還有執行權為什麼我說它是假借修法實際上是想要達到這個修憲的目的啦我先請問一下院長立法委員有沒有執行總統的這個憲法權利應該沒有執行的權利總統依法依憲法的規定得到立法院在集會的時候進行國情報告但並沒有所謂執行"},{"start":10670.442,"end":10671.162,"text":"我無法替總統回答,但是我個人認為"},{"start":10700.322,"end":10715.918,"text":"如果在提出釋憲之後整個社會的焦點注意力會在釋憲上面希望釋憲的結果憲法法庭給這個憲法的秩序做一個安定的決定在此之前如果有不宜的行為太多引起人民的反感會更大"},{"start":10716.715,"end":10745.225,"text":"我是建議啦我是單單最後總統決定啦在事件結果出來之前總統是不移到立法院來啦因為這個是會破壞憲法上對於這個總統的這個權利的一些規定也破壞了這個五權分立的一個相關的規定再請教一下院長這個修法之後呢是不是任何人都有可能被叫到立法院來做調查或是提供文件然後人民能不能拒絕到場拒絕證言或是交付文件有沒有辦法拒絕"},{"start":10746.274,"end":10771.315,"text":"照目前新修正條文的內容來看是有這樣的疑慮的他必須要提供文件要來做詢問等等進行調查調閱以及聽證一般的人民都有可能受到這樣的立法院的要求所有的人民都有可能來嘛所有可能都會被調來所以我剛剛看到很多國民黨的立委說沒有啦這個有什麼重大社會關係的人才會來什麼叫重大社會關係"},{"start":10772.568,"end":10796.9,"text":"他認定你有重大社會關係,你就是有重大社會關係。福昆齊昨天怎麼講?他說來立法院聽證的民眾,都是涉及跟政府相關有勾結,他已有新證了。他認為叫你來你就是有問題。黃國昌怎麼講?台灣社會無需恐慌啦!這個99.9%的人都不會受到影響啦!那問題是,誰是那0.1%的人?誰是那兩萬三千?兩萬三千的人,2.3萬的人之一嘛,對不對?"},{"start":10802.199,"end":10824.932,"text":"任何人都有可能會被叫過來所以呢這樣子的修法會不會變成政治上打擊一級的工具啊而且很主觀的認定是所謂跟政府相關有勾結的人這個罪名嚇得太大了對啊這就是國民黨和民眾黨他只要認為說你有關係就可以叫你過來而且呢叫你過來不過來要罰錢得廉賜罰對不對"},{"start":10829.455,"end":10852.816,"text":"再請教一下院長,修法之後,立法院可以向司法機關、檢察機關提供調查中的資料或副本,這樣有沒有違法或違憲?調查中的這個案件,它的相關的證件也許都在司法機關了。如果能夠提供副本的話,那嚴重侵犯司法機關的權限,就權力分立原則來講,就憲政秩序這個設計來講,是絕對不宜的。"},{"start":10856.44,"end":10878.088,"text":"這個44729號有講這個基於權力分立還有制衡的原則保障檢查機關獨立行使職權然後立法院不得調閱相關的證券那對於這個調閱相關的這個文件或是與文件內容相同是影本要經立法院院會的決議而且這調閱必須跟憲法上賦予這個立法委員職權"},{"start":10880.008,"end":10908.272,"text":"職權上有重大關聯者,實得為之。不是隨便都可以調要跟我們行使這個憲法上面有重大權力關聯者才可以嘛所以說這次修法呢這個司法機關跟檢察機關要資料然後呢這個也不用跟這個立法院行使權力有重大關聯也不用經過立法院院會的決議啦本席認為這跟釋字的第729號的這個相關的解釋精神已經不符了啦"},{"start":10908.953,"end":10934.63,"text":"而且跟國家機關獨立行使的職權受到憲法保障的還有非立法院所得調查的事務這是很明確在四字五八五語化裡面很清楚的對於行政首長以及行政權固有的權能對於可能影響干預行政權部門有運作之餘的都不能當作被調遇的但是現在這個酷刑法案是那個通過之後他其實都可以調他其實都可以調"},{"start":10935.92,"end":10961.837,"text":"在請教院長,在2004年9月這個立法院那時候有公布一個政調會的一個條例就是要在國會裡創設一個準司法權就是在野黨以監督治衡為名行國會擴權之實所以才會有後來的44585號解釋嘛所以其中有違權利分立跟治衡原則涉及人民基本權利有違正當法律程序這些條文都被宣布為違憲了所以現在國民黨"},{"start":10962.978,"end":10968.119,"text":"立法院一權獨大,所以最後585號大家都已經講過了,本來要跟委員這個最後585號解釋,作為一個最後的結語,我先簡單念一下"},{"start":10987.043,"end":11009.92,"text":"國家監管行使權利要受到法的節制,立法院行使憲法所賦予的權利也沒有例外,只是法治原則的基本要求。立法院調查權的行使與調查事項跟強制發生不同,可能涉及限制多種憲法保障人民的基本權利。所以,立法院行使調查權涉及憲法所保障人民的基本權利,不僅要法律的依據,"},{"start":11012.762,"end":11024.432,"text":"好,謝謝李委員,我們時間到來謝謝左院長下一位我們請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":11043.215,"end":11047.117,"text":"謝謝主席,我請卓院長我請卓院長貴賢院長好,我看了您的6頁的,14頁的報告,6點提出覆議的理由,我還是認為"},{"start":11063.988,"end":11081.71,"text":"立法院在討論立法委員的職權行使法很奇怪的這是立法院的職權行使法由行政院來提出意見特別是行政權來提出這個覆議的案子"},{"start":11083.271,"end":11099.054,"text":"我現在是覺得行政院提出的包括你們提出的五大理由、六大理由,憑什麼行政院來張牙舞爪地來指責立法院、立法委員在立法院裡面的職權行使?"},{"start":11100.202,"end":11122.712,"text":"我覺得是非常奇怪的事情我特別舉出106年我知道那時候院長您還在民進黨黨中央當時我們無論在處理前瞻條例或者是處理勞基法的時候我讓您倒帶一下當時民進黨是完全執政在國會是完全的多數當時"},{"start":11124.873,"end":11149.191,"text":"公民黨委員也要求釋憲,當時也提出釋憲,但是大法官當時提出的釋憲在107年5月4號,當時大法官就提出說,立法院提出的釋憲大法官不受理,因為司法權本與憲法機關互相尊重的忠誠義務,不介入立法院審議內部的事項。"},{"start":11152.794,"end":11163.044,"text":"但是我非常遺憾的是今天行政院大剌剌的公開的去介入立法院的這個職權的行使這特別是"},{"start":11165.298,"end":11191.903,"text":"這個立法院的職權行使到底有沒有去影響到這個行政院我倒是有很多的問號那當時院長你讓我說完當時106年在處理勞基法的時候當時林靜怡是召委現在的正式林靜怡召委她提出來說請尊重這個議事規則第30條她當時也把發言的時間做了限制這個都有公文白紙黑字都在公報上面"},{"start":11192.463,"end":11212.904,"text":"有問題的話請院長你到時候再回去看看公報當時包括在委員會討論的同時討論到勞基法三十二條之一的時候現在的副總統當時的蕭美琴委員就提出停止討論包括後面所有的條文都不要討論保留直接送院會"},{"start":11214.797,"end":11230.242,"text":"這個就是你們今天提出來的六大理由覆議的六大理由就是今天的民進黨打臉過去的民進黨歷史真的是一面照妖鏡院長把當時的公報條文包括逐字一個一個唸出來你就可以看得清楚我到底在講什麼"},{"start":11231.822,"end":11260.274,"text":"這個也違反當時民進黨今天你們有提出來的話也是違反當時民進黨堅持民主的價值今天你們提出這個覆議案真的是民主的絆腳石特別是民進黨內部其實你們也有很多人希望看到國會改革好你們提到說這個國會改革有至愛難行的地方我就不知道行是哪裡難行特別是立法院在做這個調查權的行使的同時是要查弊案"},{"start":11260.874,"end":11285.145,"text":"如果調查弊案真的有影響到的話真的跟在權力分立有影響的話也是監察院到時候大法院大法官或者是司法院或監察院可以也有大法官去提出這個憲法的解釋跟行政院也沒有任何的關係所以我覺得今天由行政院提出覆議案我覺得是大有問題在再來一個"},{"start":11288.462,"end":11289.243,"text":"請委員支持請委員支持"},{"start":11320.033,"end":11343.608,"text":"我的立場是非常清楚我想院長非常清楚我也聽到你回答其他委員說後續的大法官的釋憲你們也會提出到底會不會提出暫時處分你剛才沒有回應那到底民進黨會不會提出暫時處分每一個動作背後都有它的政治意義但是相對的也會有政治的代價"},{"start":11344.824,"end":11370.674,"text":"院長會不會提出大法官解釋之後明天覆議結束之後你們還有一個工具行政手段就是釋憲釋憲的同時明天覆議明天投票覆議後面你如果沒有過後面民進黨還有一個手段就是大法官的釋憲釋憲的同時剛才我聽到你回答其他的委員民進黨委員提出暫時處分的部分你們會不會提出來"},{"start":11371.772,"end":11386.519,"text":"覆議之後有需要我們還有其他憲法上的救濟剛剛的暫時處分是委員提出的我說我們還有憲法上的救濟我們會思考做最好的妥善的處理對這個憲法上的救濟我們來做考慮"},{"start":11387.438,"end":11388.72,"text":"會議決定之後我自然會做決定"},{"start":11404.977,"end":11432.365,"text":"院長我尊重啦齁因為覆議是你的權利啦齁覆議是你的權利啦齁委員說我們大剌剌的提出覆議不是的我們大剌剌的是要我們是張開一個保護傘為所有的人民受到保護院長我只要提醒你齁多數的民調不要只看到小部分幾份民調要走出去聽聽大多數民意的聲音我也有數份民調坊間也有很多不同的民調可以給你看到民意對於國會改革的支持度你既然辭聖"},{"start":11433.405,"end":11434.987,"text":"這兩天委員提醒民調我都有注意"},{"start":11453.084,"end":11463.63,"text":"做暫時的處分,後面你要做行政救濟、憲法的救濟,無論是釋憲或暫時的處分,背後都有一定的政治的意義在,但是相對的"},{"start":11465.011,"end":11494.311,"text":"用這樣的方式去處理,也要付出相對的政治的代價,因為這個會造成更多的社會對立,國會對立,你非常清楚,我不知道是不是你要的,你很清楚,背後會代表的是更多的國會的對立,我想這不是你我想看到的,因為後面包括凍結法律案,暫時處分就是凍結法律案嘛,凍結國會改革的法律案嘛,這個是另外一個高度的挑起國會的對立或民意的對立。"},{"start":11495.331,"end":11502.721,"text":"所以難道憲法的設計就只會挑起對立嗎?不是吧?這是為了要讓所有的行為更完善、更合法、更合憲"},{"start":11503.527,"end":11504.488,"text":"還有一個原住民的進法補償條例"},{"start":11532.108,"end":11532.268,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":11553.516,"end":11570.87,"text":"沒有沒有沒有 都有關係 我等一下會提 都有關係 都有關係同一天 同一天 同一天 立法院審完 同一天 送到總統府 然後你們現在只公告三條 第四條 禁法條不公告 剛剛的院長你的回答是什麼"},{"start":11573.234,"end":11573.515,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11589.71,"end":11612.802,"text":"未來這一條委員會提出附議論我就要再一次提我剛剛已經每一個政治動作背後都會挑起社會的對立如果你們打算要跟全民對著幹跟立法院對著幹的話我覺得這個是失去你們說什麼要傾聽人民的聲音要多溝通未來只會我覺得你們沒有辦法推動更多的復國立民的法案"},{"start":11613.382,"end":11639.389,"text":"因為包括原住民的禁法補償條例也很多民進黨的委員是支持的所以我覺得這個如果總統大概總統沒有公告我覺得總統的角色也一定在裡面啦所以我預估你們這一條也會提復議啦那包括財化法這兩天審議的國民黨民進黨不管提出的版本是什麼你們大可提出行政院的想法版本"},{"start":11640.317,"end":11658.766,"text":"討論這麼多你們連提都不提未來是不是海諾法案只要民進黨不開心不滿意你們全部都提覆議我們有現行版本才發法才發法25年都沒有修啦過去的賴清德市長潘孟安市長都說要修啊你們最起碼也提出一個你們的版本是連提都不提所以我說未來絕對是瘋狗連天只要是你們不滿意全面的提出覆議權"},{"start":11673.386,"end":11679.33,"text":"好謝謝謝謝李委員謝謝卓院長下一位請蘇巧慧委員質詢好現在主席我們請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":11699.875,"end":11717.771,"text":"主委好院長好院長剛剛看你跟主席說這是不是超越本次質詢的目的院長我想請問本次這兩天議程質詢備詢的目的是什麼是就立法院職權行使法部分條文及中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名及"},{"start":11718.331,"end":11745.337,"text":"第一百四十一條之一條文覆議案的報告就這個報告來做是所以今天質詢的目的其實就是要讓委員們讓民眾可以理解行政院為什麼提出覆議案對吧是沒有錯嘛可是院長兩天到現在我已經是第39個站在這裡的委員了我看國民黨跟民眾黨在野黨的委員加起來也20多個了"},{"start":11746.937,"end":11768.482,"text":"有任何人讓你好好的完整的說明行政院為什麼提覆議案嗎?我看起來好像不太有啊我看到的其實當在野黨的委員上來的時候最多的要嘛就是禮貌一點啊新聞下標說高分貝的質詢那其實說真的就謾罵也蠻多的啊"},{"start":11770.402,"end":11786.467,"text":"然而也很多的超越今天的範圍之外呢那也還有更多的其實我統計了一下有三句話最多一個是我沒有讓你講話你不要講話第二個是你只要回答是或不是第三句是院長你佔用我的時間不要講話這三句話頻率出現最高可是他們也還是都要你回答啊所以我看院長你其實也回應了幾句啊"},{"start":11798.231,"end":11826.707,"text":"所以院長如果依照現在通過因為確實已經三讀通過了嘛五月底通過了這個立法院職權行使法的修正以第25條來講的話院長我覺得你有可能就是藐視國會囉因為我看到你可能他們會說是超越質詢範圍嘛反質詢嘛拒絕答覆那一次一罰院長你有沒有算過這兩天下來你大概要被罰多少錢呢"},{"start":11827.898,"end":11851.278,"text":"如果照正標準的話應該慘不忍睹應該上百萬有啦院長如果你在來當院長之前就知道說哇一次備詢就要上百萬不曉得你還願不願意接這個院長也不曉得有沒有人願意來當後面先念列席整排的部長們不曉得一次備詢一天可能要上百萬不曉得還有沒有人願意要來當這個部長"},{"start":11853.203,"end":11868.676,"text":"那我們就看到如果沒有人來當這些部長沒有人來做這些服務人民的工作產生的其實就是國家的空轉啊所以我覺得行政院你再提出覆議案說至愛難行對啊"},{"start":11871.138,"end":11893.187,"text":"確實是這個法案如果通過了之後行政院就沒有辦法做事了當然自愛難行所以你應該要把五六七喔你的這個幾項理由當中應該要大大更大的說明出來那我跟院長說啦我建議你因為我這樣抽絲剝繭下去以後我看到二月其實有一條新聞跟國民黨的副總召有關"},{"start":11895.987,"end":11917.784,"text":"副總召在二月的時候接受採訪的第一件事情那時候志得意滿、氣宇軒昂的就是告訴大家說我們進來立法院以後就是要成立特徵組讓民進黨找不到人做部會首長這新聞報得很大這是副總召的目標所以這樣連起來"},{"start":11919.525,"end":11920.506,"text":"報告委員 我想我們所有的部會首長"},{"start":11936.558,"end":11936.939,"text":"中華民國法院議員"},{"start":11950.708,"end":11972.769,"text":"老實說立法院之所以成為最高國家殿堂就是大家不再是用拳頭大小大家不是比武力高低而是用口才口語文字在這裡做政策辯論所以兩方都應該就自己的想法提出說明而不是要求某一方單一的手綁起來嘴巴不能講話"},{"start":11973.49,"end":11973.57,"text":"那麼 院長"},{"start":11996.36,"end":11996.961,"text":"我必須說有耶!"},{"start":12017.538,"end":12041.404,"text":"我們其實不只是在保護維持國家的憲政秩序更是在保護一般的人民權利你看看院長剛剛有很多的委員又拿大法官釋字又拿這個條文可是我看在野黨的委員他們現在終於願意討論條文了但是都就單條單句不敢告訴你整篇連在一起以後會發生什麼樣的效果"},{"start":12042.884,"end":12048.653,"text":"我們就來看這部法令什麼時候會跟一般人發生效果其實很簡單從45條現行條文的第45條裡面"},{"start":12053.931,"end":12074.258,"text":"45條呢﹖他說呢﹖我們可以﹖立法院可以就相關議案來進行調查。好,相關議案,範圍很大,什麼叫相關議案。好,再來呢﹖如果是47、48呢﹖其實在這裡就規定了除了政府機關之外﹖是部隊、法人、團體、社會上有關係的人。"},{"start":12075.378,"end":12090.706,"text":"剛剛有委員說 憲法就有寫社會上關係的人啊對啊 憲法是根本大法所以他把大家包山包海包進來你現在還用憲法來講 正式符合了包山包海啊那麼相關議案加上社會上關係之人喔"},{"start":12092.625,"end":12112.852,"text":"院長我下相去講的時候有一個例子大家聽得很懂我給你參考看看在野黨說我們訂立這部法條就是要查民進黨的弊案像是雞蛋案那我們呢絕對不會牽涉到一般人我們只是要調那一些做雞蛋案決策的相關官員來詢問"},{"start":12115.22,"end":12126.535,"text":"這讓你同意這樣的話嗎?他們是這樣講的嘛可是如果按照現行已經通過的三讀條文來講雞蛋案的社會相關人員是誰?"},{"start":12127.605,"end":12154.207,"text":"你做決策的官員當然符合他的政府嘛機關嘛符合嘛好那你賣雞蛋的人算不算社會相關的人你當時跟哪一個大盤商買的哪一個中盤買的你零售店你又是跟誰採購的我想知道大盤商是誰這個大盤商是不是跟政府有勾結中盤商當然是有關係的人可以來啊"},{"start":12154.991,"end":12169.894,"text":"那甚至是我是一般的媽媽我只是去便利商店去超級市場去幹嘛店買雞蛋算不算有關係的人如果他要算也可以算啊因為我是委員我想知道你這一斤雞蛋買多少錢"},{"start":12170.675,"end":12184.983,"text":"我就是想知道所以我可以調閱你來請你來立法院說明、作證一斤雞蛋到底漲到多少錢啊民進黨政府真的是剝削人民啊把雞蛋價格轟得這麼高"},{"start":12186.784,"end":12187.565,"text":"憲宇委員非常清楚"},{"start":12207.208,"end":12227.31,"text":"我們就是看到這樣條文的適用將來會造成沒有明確的規範,內容沒有明確的法律明確性,所以我們認為要保護所有的人,希望能夠重新審視。所以我覺得行政院可以用更白話、更口、大家能夠聽得懂的話語來跟社會解釋這一部法院到底有多荒謬。"},{"start":12228.992,"end":12245.225,"text":"在野黨在在的說國民黨在在的說不會不會我們不會做這麼荒謬的事不好意思堂堂立法院都可以訂出這麼荒謬的法律文字出來你怎麼能夠相信未來他不會用這個寬鬆的法律去做一些更荒謬的事我覺得這個"},{"start":12245.845,"end":12274.252,"text":"是行政院一定要甚至是更大力道的來告訴大家我們提復議的原因是因為這部法律根本就侵害人民的權益我們已經不只是在保障國家憲政秩序了我們是在維護一般人民的權益我覺得這個其實可以再更加強啦所以今天在這裡喔院長用這個時間雖然你在在的說你對復議案有信心坦白講我不樂觀啊"},{"start":12275.552,"end":12304.27,"text":"以我們這幾次和國民黨民眾黨聯手交戰的做法我是對明天的覆議案不樂觀所以我想最後請問你如果覆議案不過的話你會對社會做更多說明嗎最後十秒會的第一我們尋求憲法上其他的救濟第二個我們知道自己應該負起什麼樣的政治權利跟責任我想我們有責任來跟民眾說明現在是國家行政遇到難處請院長不只就這案"},{"start":12310.921,"end":12317.664,"text":"好,謝謝所有委員,也謝謝卓院長接下來請黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":12344.077,"end":12347.622,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請卓院長來請卓院長備詢黃委員好院長好"},{"start":12359.838,"end":12388.317,"text":"委員長今年是本席覺得國會改革我認為是這個國會監督法國會正常化我稱為這個國會監督正常化的一個歷史的機遇委員長這是單一選區兩票制實施之後國會首次真的三黨不過半我會坦白說如果今年大選結果是國民黨完全執政那這個國會改革法案一定推不動同理如果今年又再度是民進黨完全執政國會改革法案我想還是會推不動"},{"start":12389.315,"end":12418.319,"text":"我想國會改革這個法案過去八年寫不出來一定不是因為太難的寫不出來我想我們聽講從這個院長部長很多的幕僚大家都是法律系專業真正寫不出來的原因只是純粹因為我想沒有人沒有行政權會希望把權力交出去這是我本席這個開場那院長首先想請教幾個問題啊院長就請直覺回答就好這不是陷阱題啊我不會挖陷阱給你跳啊"},{"start":12419.099,"end":12437.287,"text":"委員長你認為說這個立法院舉手表達意見有沒有效力?你說官員嗎?還是委員?委員官員都可以舉手表達意見舉手表達意見有沒有表達到意思的意見?他可以舉手表達意見可以舉手表達意見"},{"start":12439.568,"end":12454.843,"text":"那你認為說這個我們在首長官員在立法院詢答在自我主觀上可不可以來說謊欺騙當然不可以不可以那如果官員有說謊刻意隱瞞事實算不算一種藐視國會的行為"},{"start":12456.854,"end":12473.629,"text":"第一我跟國人都不會容忍再來他會自己負起政治責任那嚴重的話我們會做政治的處分好謝謝院長院長我們看一下我們當今天的總統賴清德總統在98年當立法委員的時候他曾經針對人事審查的時候"},{"start":12475.59,"end":12501.021,"text":"來問說請大家舉手表達自己的意見因為院長你這兩天都經常要求官員不要舉手表達意見因為舉手表達好像不會列入記錄但在這個98年的內政司法法制聯席的委員會裡面當時立法委員賴清德要求大家也透過舉手的方式來表達說自己有沒有被相關的服務機關懲處過那當時所有人都舉手說這個沒有沒有的人都舉手了"},{"start":12502.026,"end":12528.394,"text":"後來賴委員親自發現其中有一個紀正然先生曾經被處罰過他突然說我想起來了立法委員賴清德把他點出來他說我想起來了好像是兩小過現在記不清楚但是賴委員說你被記過被處罰的事實接下來委員又講既然有這個事實你在審查時就不應該欺騙委員這個非常嚴重藐視我們立法院要怎麼處罰"},{"start":12529.714,"end":12556.673,"text":"我回顧這個歷史我只要跟院長報告今天推動這個國會改革法案一個契機跟一個源頭每一個當過民意代表當過立法委員當過國會議員在立法院裡面有時候也經常會遇到這樣子的問題就是官員我當然不確定他是刻意的說謊還是刻意隱瞞事實還是真的不小心忘記了但在當年這個時空背景之下現在的總統賴清德當時的情緒上也好"},{"start":12557.513,"end":12566.202,"text":"實務上也好他也覺得官員不應該說謊藐視國會對吧院長這個情景如果是照歷史的紀錄這個情景是存在的"},{"start":12567.526,"end":12593.575,"text":"是,所以的確嘛,所以當時的這個賴清德現在的總統也認為說不應該去藐視國會好那再來我們看到我們時任現在的副院長我想今天很多非常多委員舉例啦當時立法委員曾立軍現在的副院長他也講過讓國會的職權能夠真正的代表人民要把調查權聽證權還給國會讓國會不要像拔了牙的老虎一樣沒有辦法監督制衡"},{"start":12594.235,"end":12609.78,"text":"他的問題是說現在的問題是說國會要積極行使自己的權利勇敢行使權利台灣從修憲到現在國會沒有這個行使監督制衡的權利是因為多數黨是國民黨國民黨不願意行使憲政體制下的權利"},{"start":12610.64,"end":12625.801,"text":"如果再用格權統一權這樣一個不對人民負責的國會獨治權能夠統一出一個人民滿意的執政領袖嗎?所以先透過這屆國會讓多數黨展現為民意負責的態度展現監督制衡的能力再來討論這個憲政體制的改革"},{"start":12628.117,"end":12653.399,"text":"院長你對副院長當年當立法委的這段話有什麼感想這段話能明顯的看出對國會更有效率立法品質更好的期待但是要經過合憲合法的程序達到這個目的裡面也提到聽證權、調查權吧有好再來讓我們進入今天的這個主題所以院長你也支持立法院有聽證權、調查權但是你有其他單書是嗎"},{"start":12654.701,"end":12666.05,"text":"不是我有但書,是憲法585號有他明確的規定。甚至585我待會跟院長來討論,那我們先講請問一下整個大的概念,院長是否支持立法院應該有聽證權跟調查權?"},{"start":12668.527,"end":12689.181,"text":"如果在合憲合法的設計底下,能夠讓委員來享有這樣的權利,我認為是一種進步的展現。但合憲合法的前提,繼續牢牢的進駐。那當然這個是立法院的問題。那接下來我要談到是民眾很恐慌的部分。我想因為在這個覆議案裡面,你沒有提到說無差別的來調查人民。"},{"start":12689.921,"end":12716.447,"text":"那我想我們的政務委員林明欣委員當初在這個接受媒體訪問的時候也提到說立法院要調查使用便利商店的效率性可以去找家庭主婦便利商店店長來開聽證會我想問一下依照現在三讀通過總統還沒公布的這個立院職權行使法裡面哪一條我們可以邀請家庭主婦來立院調查 店長你覺得家庭主婦都可能是社會上關係之人那我要哪一條"},{"start":12717.487,"end":12746.186,"text":"社會上關係之人剛剛提到了47條都有這樣的明文規定在那這一條有沒有受立運職權行使法本身的限制對不起這一條本身是放在立運職權行使法裡面是好我待會再舉案例再跟你回覆這個問題再看到下一頁民進黨曾經發布一個圖片來講說這個我們可以依照立運職權行使法叫台積電聯發科的營業秘密交出來"},{"start":12747.284,"end":12771.704,"text":"院長,你覺得我們要依照哪一個法律,要求台積電跟聯發可以把營業機密交出來?一樣,針對法人也是要調查、調閱跟聽證,法人都是對象之一。這個社會上是確實有疑慮的,真的是的。因為我們的高科技業對自己的營業機密都是非常的保守謹慎。當然,這個我也認同,營業機密絕對是不能隨便交出來的,也不能交出來啦。"},{"start":12772.657,"end":12795.023,"text":"那院長這個剛剛兩個通過兩個案例一個是一般的民間人士所謂的所謂家庭主婦一個是所謂的知名企業那我們回到立院職權行使法本身院長你知不知道立院職權行使法怎麼來的我們今天討論的你今天附議的這個法律叫立院職權行使法嘛那立院職權行使法怎麼來的就是在大院審查產生出來的"},{"start":12797.558,"end":12820.606,"text":"他依據什麼來的?整個法律?整部法律?我想立法院職權行使法整部法律是依照所謂的立法院組織法訂定嘛那立法院組織法怎麼來的?立法院組織法是依據憲法七十六條對於一個立委的職權來訂定立法院組織法再訂定立法院職權行使法那立法院職權行使法裡面是依據憲法而來憲法對於立法委的職權它就是明定的"},{"start":12821.286,"end":12842.285,"text":"是針對什麼法律案、運輸案、戒嚴案、大肆案等等等等還有國家其他重要事項等職權所以整部立院職權行使法它有一個核心問題啊核心價值它能夠行使職權立法委員能夠行使所謂的職權它必須依照立院職權行使法立院職權行使法是依據憲法賦予立法委員權利它是國家重大議案那"},{"start":12843.065,"end":12859.5,"text":"提到的包含說這個便利商店,便利商店怎麼營業,請問一下這件事情跟國家重大意義和國家利益有什麼關係?是便利商店的人,不是便利商店那個店,要搞清楚。便利商店那個人,那你要把那個人找來你必須要一個理由嘛。"},{"start":12860.461,"end":12865.024,"text":"所以在同樣的職權行使法裡面我再一次的強調接受訊問的時候提供證言或是文件資料表達意見的時候"},{"start":12888.356,"end":12888.838,"text":"調查的範圍擴張到相對議案"},{"start":12892.366,"end":12919.088,"text":"或與立法委員職權相關事項﹖他已經很顯然像我剛提到的便利商店便利商店營運這件事情到底要怎麼樣跟立法委員職權扯上關係我很好奇因為你今天覺得不一樣所以這個條文這樣寫是矛盾的沒有矛盾啊因為你首先第一件事情你要先依據利用職權行使法來行使職權那這個便利商店怎麼執行這件事情跟立院職權就毫無關聯性這是第一點"},{"start":12919.768,"end":12935.717,"text":"第二點,在這次的立法院職權行法案,我想很多官員跟委員的辯論裡面提到幾個法例,包含46-2,包含50-1,59-5,甚至45條。我想對於立法委員在這個行使廳這根調查的時候,都本來就已經限制了相關權利。"},{"start":12936.758,"end":12938.178,"text":"在法律條文裡面本來就已經要求"},{"start":12964.116,"end":12981.882,"text":"本來就立院職權行使法,我還是要強調,立院職權行使法沒有這麼偉大,只有跟國家利益相關的案,它才有可能立法院嘛。所以不能違背權利分立的原則?對,不會違背嘛,不會違背,所以才說,我還是要回到立院職權行使法跟憲法的主體委員權利。"},{"start":12986.678,"end":12997.688,"text":"謝謝黃委員謝謝卓院長報告全院委員會上午質詢、詢答進行到此為止下午2點30分繼續開會現在休息"},{"start":13204.768,"end":13227.534,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14153.028,"end":14153.069,"text":"主席"},{"start":14839.117,"end":14839.177,"text":"本集完"},{"start":14955.192,"end":14955.232,"text":"主席"},{"start":16916.817,"end":16917.227,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":18522.493,"end":18523.456,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":20167.166,"end":20168.029,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":21609.978,"end":21637.558,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行詢答請吳委員配議發言謝謝主席,我請行政院左院長、法務部正部長請左院長還有法務部部長備詢"},{"start":21651.279,"end":21661.55,"text":"國會擴全法案,院會審查了四天,從早到晚我們看到場外都有無數的公民在關注著,但是在法案三讀之前,院會"},{"start":21663.301,"end":21683.431,"text":"陸續在5月17、5月21、5月24、5月28進行逐條討論的程序,但是並沒有進行實質的逐條討論。在四次的院會當中,國民黨及民眾黨發言的次數是幾次呢?是零次,從來沒有進行逐條討論。"},{"start":21684.844,"end":21710.771,"text":"而表決因為進行不記名舉手表決所以我們在議事的公報上面沒有辦法看到每一位立委留下的投票記錄所以強行通過的國會擴權法案目前正面臨的是國人對於侵害人權的疑慮在今天的這個場合行政院提出覆議案立法委員也有權利在這裡質詢行政院"},{"start":21711.671,"end":21717.54,"text":"來去討論這個覆議的理由是否充足那之前呢 面對國會擴權法案的疑慮"},{"start":21720.644,"end":21747.44,"text":"藍白對外說立法通過了才會向人民說明現在他們又說等覆議案通過了他會到街上去向路人來說明這兩天的質詢我一直在關注我覺得非常的遺憾因為我們並沒有看到現在通過的擴權法案的提案者國民黨及民眾黨利用這個機會充分的向國人說明到底這個提案的理由是什麼"},{"start":21748.48,"end":21762.631,"text":"現行通過的法規對於國人會有什麼樣的影響在過去四天的院會裡面毫不容易三讀通過了我們才看到國民黨團總召傅坤祺上台發言但他的發言內容我逐字來講卻是"},{"start":21764.372,"end":21776.845,"text":"他的炒苦案是冤案、傅坤祺說他是五星縣長不會炒苦、傅坤祺說他是刑法一百條害他被關這些發言通通都跟我們現在在討論的國會擴權法案無關"},{"start":21779.808,"end":21807.735,"text":"並且背離了事實那所以呢就可以看到這個立法的品質過程是有多麼粗糙我今天在這裡必須要說現在的國民黨比過去還要來的墮落我們看到的歷史記錄國民黨在2004年時同樣提出過藐視國會罪當時同樣是嘲笑野大但是在王金平時代的國民黨沒有仗著嘲笑野大強拖毀憲亂政的法案"},{"start":21808.915,"end":21826.355,"text":"更沒有用不足條討論舉手表決的方式硬幹這個都有會議記錄我們看得到當時提案人是國民黨黨團主席才是因為民進黨有意義所以推回程序委員會不是不能提案再討論這個都有程序的"},{"start":21826.815,"end":21850.205,"text":"所以在傅坤祺總召的帶領下國民黨現在比過去來得更加堕落遺憾的看到民眾黨選擇跟國民黨一起沉淪那我們現在關注的是今天上午我看到國民黨黃建豪科資委員都引述鄭麗君副院長過去談聽證權、調查權這個我要講完全牛頭皮背、馬嘴、以花戒木過去我們談論的"},{"start":21851.625,"end":21880.808,"text":"是調查權、聽證權而現在藍白通過的國會擴權法案在遠遠超出為什麼?最明顯的職權行使法第25條在說的是什麼?執詢權啊過去從來沒有討論過執詢權所以今天我要請問院長依舊現在藍白通過的擴權法案25條是不得反執詢昨天國民黨橫孟凱、羅安恆威委員都指責院長你是在反執詢請問院長反執詢的定義到底是什麼?"},{"start":21881.533,"end":21882.494,"text":"你要如何避免反質詢?"},{"start":21903.749,"end":21904.99,"text":"總統才是最高行政首長而行政院長無權作決定"},{"start":21917.824,"end":21941.576,"text":"我先請問我們部長依照我們憲法我國最高行政機關是哪一個機關?行政院是行政院嘛所以很明顯剛剛議員之委員的陳述是背離憲法背離事實但是我請問院長您在質詢的當下您該如何回答他?我只能就憲法的規定回答我就是行政院就是最高的行政首長"},{"start":21942.58,"end":21966.747,"text":"是因為現在這個25條這樣的規定不具有明確性會導致於我們在質詢當中即便明知立法委員在做的陳述是背離事實的但是院長你敢當面指出這是錯的但是會被尋的不是只有你還有我們的官員還有我們的公務員通通都有可能在台上被被尋還有民眾都有可能"},{"start":21968.462,"end":21985.157,"text":"雙面指出對方陳述是錯誤的即便這個憲法都寫得白紙黑字清楚但是很有可能就會構成因為沒有明確定義的反質詢而造成有可能被處罰的危害這就是我們在講的再舉一個例子我是在立法院的教委會"},{"start":21986.397,"end":22001.27,"text":"今年二月才進來立法院短短的幾個月我已經看到幾個例子其實相當的危險尤其是在新法通過之後我把這個議事公報來給大家看不是我空口說白話在交委會國民黨團的書記長洪孟凱曾經在質詢當中來向國科會詢問台晶電晶圓廠的資料"},{"start":22009.217,"end":22023.03,"text":"這不只是企業內部資訊甚至可能影響到我們的金融秩序這個是議會公報的組織稿當時侯孟凱委員說你們是不是都沒有去查我們副主委很負責任的回答說這個牽扯到產業內部的評估"},{"start":22025.424,"end":22053.946,"text":"那侯孟凱委員又追問了我現在問你們科學園區裡面這個禮拜多到底損失是多少我們副主委回答說這個硬體的方面我們可以說明但是呢如果涉及到營業秘密我們有辦法直接提供那副主委甚至還要向委員說啊對不起我一定得要這樣子說那侯孟凱委員追問他說非常好你有底氣啊院長在我看來江湖城市這是要被人窮捏"},{"start":22055.759,"end":22057.66,"text":"這個副主委說我們是有密切關注但是這個部分也要廠商提供給我們政府"},{"start":22070.435,"end":22089.605,"text":"然後最後副主委再次說明說這個只要廠商願意提供我們絕對提供給委員沒有問題的但是倘若有涉及到機敏資料這個要看廠商的意願但是結論是黃孟凱委員最後結論下副主委今天下班以前給本席資料"},{"start":22091.021,"end":22114.296,"text":"即便我們的公務員都已經按照他所了解的告訴委員說這個可能涉及廠商的營業秘密以及機敏性資料的部分沒辦法提供但是委員還是要求下班前提供過來否則你就是有底氣啊我現在這裡請問部長倘若新法通過這個沒有提供資料我剛講這個案例這公務員有可能會受到什麼樣的處罰"},{"start":22115.649,"end":22140.364,"text":"公務員的話是在規定是在48條48條會被移送監察院依法糾正究極彈劾那另外那個法人團體或社會有關係人員會被處以一萬年以上十萬年以下的罰款好我們現在講的是25條質詢請問一般的民眾會不會被立委要求來立法院備詢"},{"start":22141.82,"end":22145.242,"text":"暫時就在專案報告當中有立委邀請民眾來進行備詢但是因為過去的法規立委有權要求"},{"start":22162.253,"end":22174.621,"text":"民眾也有權拒絕因為沒有法則但是我們新法通過之後請問這個部長按照25條如果立委邀請民眾來立法院備詢而民眾拒絕他有可能會受到什麼樣的處罰?"},{"start":22176.525,"end":22193.594,"text":"這個有可能會在這個是25條是沒有直接規定有可能後面因為他會結合調查權的一個行使就有可能會被命那個出席或那命提出資料除了調查權以外25條如果說拒絕出席的話還有59條還有59條之五這邊要拒絕的話還經過主席的同意拒絕必須要主席同意才可以來拒絕"},{"start":22203.479,"end":22214.61,"text":"所以,最後我要說的是,院長你有說,即便只有0.1%的人有可能受到侵害,我們都要想辦法保護他們。黃國燒委員說,這一份法案對99.9%的民眾不會有影響,這不僅是法條解釋錯誤,數學也錯了。"},{"start":22222.526,"end":22246.922,"text":"任何的民眾都是有可能被要求來立院備詢而且不得拒絕都有可能受到侵害我們一定要來努力的捍衛好不好最後我要幫我們全國36萬公務員來請命院長因為你們來到立法院備詢的次數其實相對比公務員來講少我們在委員會每個禮拜都有非常多公務員要來接受備詢被立委要求提供資料"},{"start":22247.902,"end":22253.648,"text":"彈弱刑法通過並且生效請你們一定要盡最大的努力來保護"},{"start":22257.041,"end":22280.532,"text":"政情中央機關還是地方機關的公署都有可能受到刑法的侵害而他們都是認真的在為國家在復讐請行政院一定要盡最大力力來保護我們的公民黨受到的侵害是可以的謝謝 剛剛你所承認林副主委覺得他很有道德勇氣也有政治勇氣保護商業的機密保護國家的機密"},{"start":22283.264,"end":22289.471,"text":"好,謝謝吳委員。謝謝卓院長。下一位請劉許廷委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。卓院長有請。請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":22311.219,"end":22328.156,"text":"委員長 又是一天 辛苦了這個 有沒有關注國際的政治情勢應該多少會掌握對不對這兩天比較少好 沒關係喔 這最近的大新聞法國的國民議會啊最近馬克宏總統決定要解散國會 重新改選請問院長知不知道原因是什麼這跟選舉的結果有關哪個選舉的結果"},{"start":22334.654,"end":22353.282,"text":"執政黨跟在野黨之間的變化歐洲議會的選舉剛剛結束那有一點爆冷門也不見得是爆冷門就是說這個法國的極右勢力在歐洲議會選舉的選票支持度大幅的成長甚至壓過了執政黨的聯盟這個接近一倍之多"},{"start":22354.102,"end":22371.524,"text":"所以這個馬克宏認知他那個脆弱多數的國會他作為執政黨的領袖他們的執政聯盟在國會是脆弱的多數恐怕沒有辦法在新的民意的情況之下繼續來服眾所以說即便很多的評論員認為這樣子的一個決策是一場政治的豪賭"},{"start":22372.805,"end":22383.669,"text":"很有可能讓法國在1997年之後再次出現以前的所謂的左右共治這樣子一個分治政府的一個形態即便有這麼大的一個風險這個馬克宏總統也非得要讓國會的結構跟政府的結構來貼合新的名義"},{"start":22390.231,"end":22416.97,"text":"因為他認知新的民意產生了,跟現在的結構已經不一樣了。如果他不去做國會的調整,連帶做內閣的重新改組,未來可能會導致法國的憲政僵局嘛。這樣總縣長跟您剛剛的回答其實精神上是一樣的,所以你的說法我可以接受的。那這是人家的民主實踐,是人家的民主精神。我們國家的制度跟法國的第五共和若干的相似,但是差異就在於我們的立法院並沒有隔奎的同意權。"},{"start":22417.811,"end":22446.63,"text":"所以國會的解散恐怕是換不到內閣像樣的改組人家法國是國會解散內閣一定是全部重組因為法國的國會是有割歸的同意權它是整個政府執政跟在野的重新洗牌重新決定但我國不一樣啊 對不對總統可以隨時的來做指派我們也無從置諱也願意尊重其實這本身就是行政權跟立法權不對等的其中一種樣態也就是因為這樣倒閣跟解散國會一直在中華民國沒有什麼具體的實踐"},{"start":22448.191,"end":22469.547,"text":"所以回到主軸如果要檢視中華民國的民意脈動跟變化我們還是要回到定期選舉對不對每兩年一次的地方選舉四年一次的地方選舉跟中央的選舉我請教院長如果民進黨之前八年的執政沒有背離民意的話那為什麼會輸掉國會的多數呢院長要回答一下嗎"},{"start":22470.643,"end":22494.81,"text":"但是民進黨在八年的執政之後賴清德總統繼續掌握中央的執政權這個也是一個不爭的事實當然是不爭的事實阿我非常同意所以您今天站在這個地方嘛對不對這個問題阿我曾經問過陳建仁前院長他花了三分鐘的時間大內宣並沒有回答本席的問題今天因為時間有限我們就不多做探討但本席提供我的觀察本席在2024年的選舉阿我能夠有幸承讓打敗的對手"},{"start":22497.631,"end":22518.64,"text":"是忠誠的貫徹執政黨意志、民進黨的前幹事長鄭運鵬委員。他背了很多執政的包袱。我在選戰最有力的號召就是強力的監督。就是關切採購的弊案、詐騙的橫行、分配的失衡、政府失靈等等的問題。在2024激烈的選戰中,最後本席得到了人民的認可。"},{"start":22519.66,"end":22540.453,"text":"新民意的期待其實啊這麼國會結構從民進黨的絕對多數變成現在的三黨不過半難道不是新民意要求民進黨收斂鋒芒要求行政權有所節制更希望立法權發揮強而有力的監督力量這樣才能讓我們的政治更乾淨"},{"start":22541.434,"end":22563.205,"text":"院長其實我們剛剛所講的新民意的期待也就是這次國會改革國會正常化這個法案最大的正當性最新的民意調查顯示台灣的社會普遍肯定行政院提出覆議案的正當權利所以這是為什麼您今天站在這個地方我們開了兩天的全院委員會"},{"start":22564.105,"end":22584.142,"text":"按照程序來進行表決這件事情我們非常非常的尊重也非常同意因為這是憲法賦予行政院的正當權利但同時我要請這個院長看一下大家對於法案的內容其實支持都大於反對立法院聽證會支持59.6%公務員藐視國會罪57.5人事同意權行使53.9低的也有49.3等等都高於反對的民意對不對"},{"start":22593.898,"end":22617.515,"text":"這其實就是呼應本席剛剛所講的新民意期待的是什麼新民意期待的是民進黨執政不能太傲慢我們要稍微收斂鋒芒要稍微有所節制希望立法權發揮強而有力的監督力量這是為什麼我們今天肯定國會改革正常化修法的正當性再來我要跟院長討論法案修正的過程"},{"start":22618.496,"end":22636.964,"text":"委員會、審查、公聽會、黨團協商基本上都是全程直播公開透明在法案審查期間一場專案報告、一場委員會審查、三場公聽會、一次委員會協商、四次院長主持黨團協商以及5月17、21、24、28四天長達八十個小時的馬拉松式二讀逐條討論、逐條表決"},{"start":22643.627,"end":22668.026,"text":"這件事情難免各說各話大家都用自己片面的立場去認為我們認為充分討論了執政端可能認為根本沒有討論這件事情只能可受公平但我要提醒院長我們不要忘記之所以在二讀會的逐條討論沒有辦法多一點時間讓大家各抒己見難道不是第一天執政黨的委員飛撲在野黨的委員還摸人家屁股嗎"},{"start":22669.091,"end":22688.337,"text":"難道不是部分的委員搶奪議事人員的文件奪門而逃嗎?難道不是執政黨黨團的黨鞭拒絕簽署大家回位置使用表決器的協商結論嗎?我們在二讀會八十個小時的過程中沒有辦法充分的來對話這些問題院長難道執政黨沒有一些責任嗎?"},{"start":22691.937,"end":22713.858,"text":"報告委員在審查的過程當中我早上有提過最常聽到的兩句話就是條文保留跟停止討論這個讓委員沒有辦法充分的發揮第二點容許我向委員恭喜委員能夠經過民意的選擇投下一票來讓你當選立法委員都值得恭喜但是我們都必須清楚當初的那一票"},{"start":22714.699,"end":22715.741,"text":"這個我們要搞清楚"},{"start":22723.993,"end":22745.923,"text":"看起來人民並沒有那麼在乎這樣如果對覆議案有比較多的人支持那內容有不同的表示正好回到立法院好好的來看內容所以我不反對啦我剛剛都講本席也支持我們覆議案在這個地方把話講清楚但我要請你看民意調查針對內容法條的內容大部分的民意其實是贊成的好那"},{"start":22746.977,"end":22757.871,"text":"其實剛剛院長也有講所謂的停止討論這個問題沒辦法前面衝突太多大家保護主席台難免做意識攻防但是每一個條文也都有發言吧"},{"start":22758.595,"end":22777.578,"text":"每一個條文發言的內容其實也要可受公平不是嗎在每一個逐條停止發言前的討論我們聽到的大部分是針對黃國昌委員的攻擊針對傅坤祺委員的攻擊甚至針對韓國瑜院長的辱罵這難道是健康的討論嗎這件事我們就各說各話交給人民來做公平"},{"start":22778.058,"end":22801.877,"text":"院長,即使不管政策也好、法案也好都不應該以片面的解讀來做全盤的否定意見不合就舉手表決,或者是投票表決民進黨的綠能政策造成綠能蟑螂橫行甚至在賴總統的故鄉台南引發了八十八槍等重大治安事件但我們也不會因為這樣就全盤否定政府去發展太陽光電的正當性"},{"start":22802.597,"end":22818.328,"text":"重有饒恕史,但是對的事、好的事、簡單的事我們還是可以願意支持的因為凡事總有個比例原則如果我們因為饒恕史就否決政策、否決法案那麼整個政府不管是誰執政都將寸步難行更何況院長"},{"start":22819.409,"end":22836.071,"text":"這一部《立法院職權行使法》尚未上路我們的內容不應該被斷章取義也不該被惡意推定其實剛剛早上的答詢很多委員都舉出了具體的例子國會的聽證調查權的行使必須建立在社會關注的重大公共議題"},{"start":22837.012,"end":22863.357,"text":"如果國會隨心所欲忽略正當性忽略內容的專業性不只不會在內部的討論中達成共識腐爛行使權力的國會議員更會遭到民意的反噬舉個例子給您聽美國的國會曾經針對臉書還有TikTok召開聽證尋答過程中國會議員提出了不專業的荒唐問題反過頭來被民意羞辱的案例比比皆是這就是最好的證明"},{"start":22864.018,"end":22878.72,"text":"剛剛我們談綠能政策已經具體發生弊案我們尚且不會否定政策方向的正確性今天國會改革的法案尚未上路也希望執政黨不要用片面跟惡意推定的方式否定這部法案的正當性"},{"start":22879.361,"end":22895.908,"text":"本期非常清楚在這個場合不免又是各說各話政治法案針鋒相對立場自始不同我們各自代表不同的民意但院長當意見不合我們是不是應該數人頭而不是數拳頭這是基本的民主素養"},{"start":22896.601,"end":22914.637,"text":"我想不管是2024的選舉結果或者是最新的民意調查誰是多數誰是少數清楚明白本席同意透過覆議案的程序充分答詢再行表決但最後我要說民主不是民進黨做主請行政院拿出民主風範接受投票結果以上謝謝"},{"start":22920.167,"end":22936.017,"text":"謝謝劉委員謝謝卓院長下一位王世堅委員提出書面意見請行政院書面答覆列入記錄並刊登公報接下來我們請吳宗憲委員質詢麻煩我們請院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":22952.726,"end":22972.74,"text":"主席、院長您好、副委員好其實這幾天我在全院的審查會看下來其中昨天看到今天就發現兩個現象就是說溝通這兩個字目前用在執政黨身上好像越溝通就有這個溝越大就更不同我現在看到是這樣完全無法溝通"},{"start":22973.746,"end":22991.106,"text":"大家講的東西完全南轅北轍所以從上個禮拜我對院長的質詢我有提到說我蠻期望院長將來是成為全民大師兄一起來照顧全民就現在變成好像是浩克一樣碰到一些關鍵字就有一點火氣都起來"},{"start":22992.011,"end":23011.268,"text":"那我想要等等我們來看一下接下來我們詢答的狀況,因為我一直覺得,詢答它不是一個辯論,不是我們兩個吵來吵去的辯論,所以不能像辯論比賽,但是對於國會改革這個東西,我必須講一個,目前的執政黨,民進黨的這些立法委員,"},{"start":23012.298,"end":23039.275,"text":"他好像是像是那個辯論比賽一樣2016年以前他是抽到正方所以2016年以前他認為國會就是要改革需要有這些權利要聽證調查都要有結果呢2016到2024這8年又完全靜悄悄國會多數他也不管這件事2024之後呢又好像辯論比賽抽到反方一樣完全又開始否定所有的東西"},{"start":23039.955,"end":23054.823,"text":"所以這個讓我去思考一下到底這個政黨他是有一個核心理念想要為國為民想要讓立法權能夠好好的監督權還是他今天他的所謂的理念只因為是否執政而改變"},{"start":23055.943,"end":23075.254,"text":"時空環境不同或者是什麼政策的轉彎其實我覺得這個都不是真正的原因啦很單純就是一個有沒有執政執政了之後想法就全都變好那不要講我的想法啦這段時間呢我們看到吉林卓水在民進黨的大前輩其實他有提到了"},{"start":23076.583,"end":23099.833,"text":"這個修法已經好幾十年等了好幾十年了結果呢現在卻是他以前的同志們帶頭出來反對甚至我自己提出來的提案也都是很多都是參考前輩顧立雄前輩林佳龍的一些草案結果呢現在卻被喊成是毀憲亂政然後講一些奇怪怪的扣我一堆的帽子然後講我是什麼中共同路人其實我不太能夠接受這樣"},{"start":23100.834,"end":23116.963,"text":"我覺得一個還權於民的這個概念到最後變成扣上迴憲亂政這就是把政治當作辯論比賽這我沒有辦法去接受而且我覺得最離譜的是今天在座的法務部正部長我覺得他不只選手要當他裁判也要當"},{"start":23117.864,"end":23141.163,"text":"不能部長把自己...不用不用...不用那個...我沒有要問部長部長不要把自己演成是側翼啦因為部長來其實我對他很...蠻期待而且他其實做了很多事我是...我也跟他說過他做了好幾個政策我覺得是非常稱讚的齁但是我認為啦齁部長不應該把自己演成側翼為什麼?因為第一個藐視國會他說違背法律明確性昨天講的"},{"start":23142.95,"end":23167.548,"text":"這怎麼違背法律明確性呢?你說虛偽陳述四個字不明確好,刑法168條偽證罪就是虛偽陳述阿我不相信正部長一輩子沒有起訴過一件偽證罪我自己起訴過很多件偽證罪從來也沒有一個法官用違憲來把判無罪或認定他違憲所以你跟我講說這個違反法律明確性原則部長不能講這種話再來,部長昨天又講說什麼國會調查權違反4至585號"},{"start":23171.96,"end":23198.717,"text":"部長什麼時候變大法官了?這也不能這樣幹嘛?505號請部長回去自己再看清楚啦至少我看的不是這樣啦所以我認為不能這樣所以藐視國會這個定義不明到底是真的定義不明還是你這覆議的理由寫不明這是我一直以來我自己的問題啦我覺得啦你要說迴憲亂政你不如去提總統所要成立的三個委員會"},{"start":23200.519,"end":23229.725,"text":"這三個委員會其實他的預算跟人員編制這個都很奇怪而且是由總統來去成立之前蔡政府時代還不敢這麼做就現在賴政府時代變成說他要搞三個委員會那這樣子是不是說賴總統有侵害到行政權他說他有跟你仔細討論過還是說你覺得今天侵害到行政權乾脆你做個手板我們請外面的青鳥幫你一起去維護你的權利所以我真的覺得制度越走越奇怪而且"},{"start":23230.732,"end":23242.089,"text":"這不就是跟那個習近平一樣嗎?搞了一堆工作小組來架空國務院我覺得這個賴政府如果一直嘴巴罵共產黨身體又一直學共產黨"},{"start":23243.353,"end":23245.194,"text":"總統府三個委員會是一個任務的編組沒有組織、沒有預算、沒有人事"},{"start":23261.259,"end":23288.949,"text":"頒就一個特定的議題選定之後,召集各界來討論這個是很常有的事情,所有的執行工作,行政院會執行我們今天是在討論那個國會改革案例外齁,我覺得我們這個互相的質詢就是一個很好的典範啦他造謠功力也是滿分啦,真的是很厲害譬如說我昨天剛好有聽到有一位立委說,欸這個為什麼沒有可以行使緘默權,為什麼不能請律師,我想請問"},{"start":23290.117,"end":23313.469,"text":"院長你也是法律人嘛,什麼時候我國的訴訟制度正能請律師可以行使緘默權?我想請教你。但是在這裡不一樣,你面對的不是一個司法上面的被告或是...今天不是司法調查喔,院長你不能這樣子亂扯喔,今天國會的調查不實,你不能任何一個人來到這裡。緘默權是不自證己罪的時候對於當事人的保障,並不是你今天講這個樣子。"},{"start":23314.974,"end":23336.506,"text":"好,再來昨天11屆委員也說我提到的所謂的這個反質詢呢這個部分他認為說用代製後的判決判例要來補充法治他認為這很荒謬那我請問我請問院長我國的法律制度啊是不是本來就是依據條文以及判決判例來做宣判來做判決是不是"},{"start":23337.81,"end":23363.978,"text":"如果有名文條文當然是如果有形成判例那當然就是一個對沒錯所以林益錦這種法律嘗試的不足那我也不想再譴責就好像說民主國家立法委員跑去人家高中的畢業典禮在那邊做政治宣傳一樣其實這都不是民主國家該有的樣子就齁有關齁這個國會的這個改革的這個法案齁我想我還是跟議長報告一下啦我常跟他講啦"},{"start":23365.114,"end":23367.879,"text":"一二三四我們這段時間舉辦過一場專報兩場審查會三場公聽會四場協商民進黨發言的時間是1068分鐘"},{"start":23376.297,"end":23404.925,"text":"光是4月21號民進黨發言時間就81分鐘27秒每一個委員都發言兩次以上結果你們最習慣的就是把所有的事情切成一個非常小的縫隙然後在這個縫隙裡面去談對錯你們從來不去把整個東西從頭到尾看清楚是誰在搗亂整個議程是誰從頭到尾在跟我扯抗中保台我主持會主持到你們到底在跟我談條文還是抗中保台我實在搞不太懂齁所以"},{"start":23406.565,"end":23431.213,"text":"報告委員不僅審查的過程不夠嚴謹在投票的當天提出一個從來沒有看過的版本這個也是大家詬病之所在您當過立法委員嗎?曾經我想說修正動議是什麼時候提你也很清楚我覺得不用在一邊這樣子說了我想請問一下院長到底我們依據議事規則我們有幾種投票方式在立法院?"},{"start":23432.363,"end":23455.521,"text":"可以記名不記名表決器等等都可以簡單說有五種結果現在大家在攻擊說當天為什麼是舉手表決那我在這邊跟院長報告一件事情當天國民黨也提案希望我們簽一個竊決書大家不要攻占主席台所有人回到位置上面去按表決器就好大家都輕鬆結果是柯建民總召說什麼都不願意他就講了一句這不可能啦"},{"start":23456.345,"end":23470.741,"text":"所以沒有辦法到最後大家為了讓議事順利就只能在主席台上面狀況是這樣並不是我們這麼願意說站在那裡沒有椅子坐沒有插座可以充手機充電然後在那裡傻傻的在那邊舉手表決"},{"start":23471.562,"end":23487.571,"text":"更何況你說舉手表決什麼跟中共人大一樣那你為什麼不說跟聯合國一樣既然他是議事規則裡面一種投票方式你們卻可以來這樣子去攻擊我沒有辦法理解這樣啦吼我認為舉手表決有一個條件他必須清點人數"},{"start":23489.492,"end":23518.545,"text":"我跟你說我講到選人數這句話我就覺得更好笑的是民進黨委員那天還有人得意洋洋的說我舉了兩次那你是在耍意識人員欸就算意識人員點錯人數那也是意識人員的問題不是立法委員的問題點錯人數那在舉表決的結果就是重大瑕疵我跟你說當天全程錄音錄影也有人拍照你要確認是誰有沒有舉手太簡單所以不要去拿這種去騙外面的這些人民而且也應該需要政府的表決最後我是覺得啦"},{"start":23520.203,"end":23536.191,"text":"呃民進黨齁我們是一個五權體制的國家不要把五權完成一權剩下行政權這就變成獨裁那湯德忠大法官齁在去年在東吳的時候他提到四字五八五號他在解釋這個的時候他有講到"},{"start":23537.211,"end":23558.662,"text":"其實這個權力分立的概念他舉了一個例子他說就像他說國家的主人就是人民他養了五條狗我們要把權力分開讓這五條狗去狗咬狗沒有一條狗而且沒有一條狗可以咬死其他的狗這樣子呢人民才會安全這我是舉他的例子不是我罵誰所以麻煩各權之間彼此是互相"},{"start":23563.001,"end":23564.883,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝吳委員,謝謝卓院長下一位我們請陳俊宇委員質詢"},{"start":23590.233,"end":23597.295,"text":"好,謝謝大會主席、我們江副院長。那是不是請我們左院長?來,請左院長備詢。院長午安,辛苦了。陳委員好,不會,應該的。因為我們基於這個環節,相當符合的國會改革,這是我們"},{"start":23614.246,"end":23627.279,"text":"以往跟現在都一樣不變的一個定律,所以我們堅持反對國會的這種濫權,我們今天要支持的就是這個覆議案。所以在這民進黨在我們過去的兩屆,我們的國會所推動的議事的透明化,跟我們國會議定的中立化、相關的改革"},{"start":23638.385,"end":23655.239,"text":"在此,我們在這屆,民進黨團也提出了國會改革的相關法案,內裡的內容包括第一,要強化國會諸巡的通行安全,第二,我們要放棄閉閉會議的內容遭受到惡性,第三,我們要加強聽法立法委員信騷及"},{"start":23662.445,"end":23691.312,"text":"性別歧視的行為。．時我們也要提醒那些以勝中心以及發財局的幕僚的良人,這是我們民進黨所提出的。．不過這份法案,我們的處理點都是要讓國會的改革能夠加緊,而且更加進步,並且能夠符合到憲政的基本要件,若是款式相當符合改革的法案。．不過很可惜的就是"},{"start":23692.554,"end":23712.841,"text":"我們民進黨所提出的這些法案,都被當地的委員會當中無法培植這條議題。對於今天我們所要審查的國會擴寬的法案,我想就行政院所提出的復議的原因,跟本席在司法發展委員會以及委員會所觀察,還有在選區民眾所歡迎的相關的擔憂,要跟我們議長做一個探討"},{"start":23720.066,"end":23728.571,"text":"我們看到4月15日發生的委員會,民進黨團希望各黨團所提出的版本都可以變案來審議,不過我們對著這個發條看到,我們希望是可以絕條來審查,很可惜這看到發條沒有看到內容。"},{"start":23742.594,"end":23753.438,"text":"因此,我們在這個委員會裡面,本身也有進行一屆的定時發言及兩屆的大體討論。不過,這個發言的內容,所謂的在野黨,剛才我們的吳哲瑋也有說到,紐約工作公司已經進行所謂的這種內容的實質討論,並且這個實質是沒有的,沒有進行這個實質的討論。"},{"start":23772.728,"end":23788.699,"text":"若被判判的提案,若有意見時,主席才是說保留,只要民進黨有意見就保留,在此打包、打包尚協商,在國民黨和民眾黨所提案"},{"start":23793.015,"end":23816.851,"text":"徽章無經過完整的提案、說明,也無經過實質的討論,在納杯擁著人手、幼小的健康資訊、強行來標革重擴寬的法案,上出委員會。民進黨所提出的款式相當的複合憲法的改革法案,所謂的封殺,放在委員會內。後來我們九區的黨團合相、議定的合相,也都是支持把條文托托。"},{"start":23823.462,"end":23843.014,"text":"然而有意見就又保留、共享又發言、送入這個議會來議託。﹐其中根本都是貴罪的形式意義。﹐後續,若被立委復旦不願意討論。每一條會議發言,只要我們民進黨的委員在這個地方說到三分鐘的時間後,關閉就終止討論。進行表決"},{"start":23853.015,"end":23862.323,"text":"而且進行離託的條文。．﹚委員委員會要強烈來通過擴寬的法案,甚至用到35年前的這種野手標革的方式。不但很多次這個計票的方式出現錯誤,也讓歷史沒辦法去問責,因為沒研究到這個小名。讓我們的民主真真正正倒退路。"},{"start":23879.449,"end":23905.701,"text":"在這個方面我想要請教議長就是說這跟你過去在國會擔任地方委員的時候你所人在的之中實際的討論心理的規定有什麼樣的差別?我認為所有的議案、討論、規定跟標準都要有非常嚴謹不只是國會甚至外面一般人民團體也是一樣我也相信今天你委員可以在這裡很從容說一段"},{"start":23908.502,"end":23918.591,"text":"貴旗的這個屬心,我相信你國會內應該貴旗你沒有這種的機會,我們今天若沒有提出這個訪議,你絕對委員沒有時間、沒有機會,這麼多人慢慢、優調、優勵來講出貴旗是大時間。所以我認為應該的社會,國民知道的就是這段過程內,有多少會不合理的現象。"},{"start":23929.46,"end":23954.311,"text":"他所審查的發言,他的內容是多麼矛盾的所以我們今天希望說,這樣可以很合理、很大家來討論所以剛才的討論裡面,劉許廷委員跟我的對話就是一個比較像質詢的方式不是謾罵的、狂妄的、高聲喊叫的那種東西所以我們就能夠合理來對話我欣賞、我也喜歡這樣的形式"},{"start":23955.572,"end":23967.957,"text":"我也希望我們應該透過更多的方式來給民眾說明清楚這應該是民眾很多疑問無法解決另外我們就是說對著老總統他也更是公開地標示過關於來立法院進行國情的報告這也是我們在選舉的過程中尊重曾經提出的一個政見希望透過更好的"},{"start":23981.654,"end":24002.326,"text":"現場的管理來創造我們立法院跟我們元宿有一個更好的溝通的平台。現場的規定,其實立法院本地就可以邀請總統來立法院進行國情報告。我們憲法正修條的第四條、第三項有命定,立法院每一年一會的時候,"},{"start":24004.497,"end":24011.366,"text":"得聽取總統的國情報告,但是在形式上,美國和美國法國以及過去我們的國民大會報告的形式,都沒有總統責任的這種設計。"},{"start":24018.424,"end":24043.833,"text":"到底我們其他的委員是多餘來的這個管理可以一對一想要來接受我們的總統?若是現在的立委有人覺得他太大,沒聽到他心裡還想說接受總統也是相對合的關係所以我是希望像這部分也能夠去做一個比較明確的修正另外我們這次看到這個調查、聽證、範圍的稍過看"},{"start":24048.041,"end":24065.369,"text":"這次所通過的條文來看,只要你看他要求,若非行政官員、一般的民眾、部隊、法人都不能外提供相關的資料,甚至不能跟你問你沒有要這個回答,甚至在聽證會上你不能寬釋意外"},{"start":24068.649,"end":24080,"text":"若沒有經過主席的同意,也不能有這個律師的陪同。所以我們看到這個提案的委員聲稱說百分之九十九點夠的民眾都不會受到影響但是在這個發表上明明有寫到社會上有關的人員"},{"start":24087.025,"end":24110.741,"text":"因為這就涵蓋到我們兩千三百萬的民眾所以對於這種漫無邊際、施政範圍、無憾搖腕的法條有人施政只是要插臂而已但事實上他可以對民眾、對公司來進行這種插嘴表的行為所以這也是我們擔心國會的擴寬會去影響到民眾一個最重要的一個原因"},{"start":24115.199,"end":24136.124,"text":"另外,我們又看到,這次在國安的規定裡面,讓民眾最要祝福的就是苗食國肥苗食國肥做得沒變革的定義,是不是未來的自豪立法委員若不滿意,就可以來聽話到國安跟人民這也是我這次回去我們選區的時候,跟民眾在選民的規定裡面,讓民眾感覺最不能接受的部分所以"},{"start":24143.427,"end":24171.088,"text":"另外就是說,針對這個虛偽陳述及反質詢,及這陣子也都沒辦法跟人民來講清楚,一定你過去你擔任立法院委員站在執選台這裡,這陣子你站在另外一邊的備選台來擔任行政修正,對於執選的這種攻防,我相信兩邊的角度你都看得非常清楚,也有一點點心情,是不是?一定你來講看看,看你對於這方面有什麼樣的想法。"},{"start":24172.248,"end":24175.972,"text":"謝謝委員曾經擔任過立法委員的我我深深知道"},{"start":24177.062,"end":24203.023,"text":"怎麼樣的立法委員對國家的前途是最有幫忙的怎麼樣的立法委員真的是用心在論證怎麼樣的委員是透過質詢將他內心對國家的期待透過質詢表達出來讓立法行政雙方能夠來共同進步的像今天委員這樣的質詢我們就能夠很容易達到你我之間一樣的觀點或者是消除你我之間不同的論述我覺得這個才是國會議員應該盡到的天職"},{"start":24207.304,"end":24234.706,"text":"所以明天早上...明天早上是我們會議會長進行的這個討論,我還以為說納粹的議席當選來就最好是可以當發號,我看到最近議長還在講,超過萬所的民眾都是支持我們今天共和黨所以不加,我再次強調,我們第一期、關鍵、相當複雜的國會改革、接七關隊、國會的一種無難的過程,所以支持不一樣,以上"},{"start":24237.79,"end":24243.612,"text":"謝謝陳委員謝謝卓院長下一位我們請謝依鳳委員質詢謝謝主席我想要請我們卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":24272.782,"end":24291.97,"text":"請問你過去你支持國會改革,現在為什麼我們提出過去你支持的國會改革發案後結果你沒有支持?我一直支持國會改革是不是說是因為你現在做行政議長"},{"start":24293.23,"end":24293.631,"text":"並不是"},{"start":24308.82,"end":24323.503,"text":"我一直支持國會改建,這個改建要符合憲法跟法律我報告委員,我曾經當過立法委員我那個時候心裡也有不喜歡的行政院長我現在不會成為立法委員心目中不喜歡的行政院長"},{"start":24324.324,"end":24348.15,"text":"我會做一個跟大家好好溝通的行政院院長,帶領所有的部會首長,跟大家一起就論事論理論事,就符國立民的法案一起好好來討論。但是你提出的復議案來說,我們目前立法院提出的僅只有調查權跟聽證權,但是我們其實沒有去侵犯到審判權。"},{"start":24349.19,"end":24349.751,"text":"政部長不負責上訴的問題"},{"start":24369.878,"end":24392.069,"text":"對我是說這是地檢署啊我是說因為地檢署就是整個法務部的體系當然最後的審判是到司法院嘛報告委員任何一個法人團體部隊政府人員跟一般社會上關係的人都會可能站在這裡他就他應該在這裡的說明事項就是所謂的帶證事項不清不楚"},{"start":24392.529,"end":24416.842,"text":"他無法就內心來表達的時候而且立法委員在詢問他的過程當中經常也會超越所有的範圍來詢問他他會內心產生相當大的壓力這個情況之下就可以經過一個委員的提案五個委員的連署經過大家的表決就把他移送這個對人民的基本權利傷害實在太大這個部分我們是不是可以經過行政訴訟的程序"},{"start":24418.413,"end":24419.574,"text":"但是,我們其實沒有把所有的"},{"start":24435.948,"end":24440.07,"text":"關鍵委員說的就是跟政府勾結的人民才會站在這裡當作一般的社會上的關係人"},{"start":24459.338,"end":24487.564,"text":"副總召即便是黨團的總召他也僅代表了一席的立法委員那我們當然是依照法條依照全院的院會共同來決定這樣子的事項是不是所以要讓他明確化不能以這不是傅昆奇一個人的國會改革法案是不是這不是傅昆奇一個人的國會改革法案嘛不要因為一個人的主觀讓他明確化就好就是這樣子明確化就好"},{"start":24488.485,"end":24498.541,"text":"這所有的標準不是依照副總召個人的標準是依照全院委員標準所以我們是法治的時代不是人治的社會所以我們要明確化"},{"start":24499.178,"end":24527.112,"text":"但是一個人已經提出來這樣的講法會讓人民心生恐懼心裡不安壓力很大當我們要明確化就是希望在委員會有討論但過去我們去看委員會的討論的時候大家你只提到副總召你也沒有提到柯總召啊柯總召在委員會裡面只提到這是違憲亂政根本沒有就法條做實質的討論我們知道啊柯總召他是"},{"start":24528.332,"end":24544.33,"text":"資歷最深的委員,對,他應該要提出來對法條實質的討論,但是他從來沒有提,他就對於副總召在共同的做謾罵,就他們兩個在吵架而已啊。"},{"start":24545.21,"end":24566.803,"text":"難道我們未來臺灣的進步都要陷入這樣子漫無止地的謾罵當中嗎?我相信還是今天你提出這個覆議案還是你相信說你對自己未來的執政沒有信心其實我們還有非常多待改進"},{"start":24567.964,"end":24570.466,"text":"如果立法院裡面的審查都是在吵架"},{"start":24583.775,"end":24604.945,"text":"那我認為在立法院當家的韓院長他應該有能力來化解這種吵架讓大家好好的就事論事那在行政院的立場我們是希望說跟立法院保持一種非常好的互動立法院很好審查過來的法案依法行政我們就必須徹底完成依法行政的執行"},{"start":24605.916,"end":24624.67,"text":"你們就利用了柯總召去負責吵架然後讓立法院所有的功能喪失那就讓你們行政權獨大這就是你想做的嗎?是不是?我們就說了五權應該分立嘛我們知道啊在這個裡面即便是我們認為官員有"},{"start":24626.491,"end":24627.652,"text":"委員．第11屆第1次全院委員會議"},{"start":24656.58,"end":24678.784,"text":"所以你就是不相信監察院你也不相信地檢署你也不相信司法院那你們就只相信行政院是嗎?不希望有主觀的認定之後把某些一般的人民或法人團體部隊等等因為主觀的認定送去哪裡讓他們接受下一波段的任何的"},{"start":24679.184,"end":24697.211,"text":"立法委員也沒有多大,立法委員都是人民一票一票選的,我不認為立法委員有多大,立法委員都是所有民眾一票一票選的,所以對於重大爭議的事件的時候才有可能用到調查權,用到聽證權。"},{"start":24699.012,"end":24727.605,"text":"過度的濫用調查權聽證權都會受到民意的反噬這是大家知道從美國大家都知道的結果啊應該讓它明確化更符合比例原則要符合程序正當所以是不是應該要讓我們國會改革這樣子的調查權民眾有知的權利啊過去這八年以來你可能沒有在立法院可是在很多的時候"},{"start":24728.345,"end":24754.427,"text":"即便你現在在行政院了所有的資料都是掌握在行政官員的手上我們的立法委員如果行政官員沒有說的時候其實根本沒有所謂的資料那民眾想要知道你們政策決定的過程以及為什麼這樣子決定的結果我們都沒有辦法知道"},{"start":24755.328,"end":24763.014,"text":"因為這個已經明顯的有侵犯到其他行政司法監察之權如果立法院內部的職權行使法能夠經過合理的審查的結果"},{"start":24782.762,"end":24810.251,"text":"定定出一套大家都沒有疑義的明確很清楚的方向內容的法案的話我想今天這個紛爭都會解決我們就是提供這樣的機會讓他回到立法院再一次審慎的審查一次如同你說的憲法已經規定總統得來立法院做國情報告那即便我們在裡面也修了總統應該在每年定期的時候來做國情報告那你認為有什麼違憲之餘"},{"start":24812.002,"end":24832.438,"text":"總統得在立法院集會的時候做國情報告這是憲法的規定但是把它設定為定期的義務而且必須急問急答跟憲法的精神就是截然不同所以你反對的是定期反對的是定期的義務跟質詢急問急答的方式你不需要它每年來這不是我反對這是憲法規定的精神"},{"start":24833.769,"end":24855.496,"text":"如果經由協商,現在即便不用修法,經由協商,那大家協商的結果仍然是幾問幾答的時候,那你要不要反對?還是違反憲法?那你要不要反對?如果現在在沒有修憲的情況下,我們是可以邀請總統來立法院做酌情報告,那"},{"start":24857.657,"end":24857.677,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":24888.484,"end":24894.918,"text":"謝謝謝委員、謝謝卓院長報告全院委員會,我們休息15分鐘,現在休息"},{"start":25792.434,"end":25797.167,"text":"報告全院委員會 現在我們繼續開會我們請沈伯陽委員發言"},{"start":25818.323,"end":25821.545,"text":"那這個前面已經經歷過非常多委員的質詢那我還是想要回歸因為我們今天最重要的就是復議案"},{"start":25841.744,"end":25863.311,"text":"就是說到底覆議案值不值得提出有沒有道理我們從這個方向來說但在這個之前這個院長之前也做過立委應該都知道我們這整個的流程從法案從這個程序委員會一直到一讀到這個委員會那我相信院長也知道最重要要討論法條的應該就是在委員會這個院長應該同意"},{"start":25865.972,"end":25886.812,"text":"所以委員會是一個逐條討論的場所,它有程序的發言、有大體的發言等等之類的。我們可以看到這一個其實因為國會改革的版本,國人其實很難去知道它確切的內容。因為它是5月17號,晚上7點才擺在我們每個人的桌子上。但我在這邊有先秀出來就是,在最早的時候富坤崎那邊有29條,民眾黨總共有26條。"},{"start":25890.976,"end":25917.604,"text":"所以總共但是5月17號真正他們拿出來的是35條所以簡單來講有一些條文其實就算在之前討論過也不是我們在二讀看的那些條文那更不要講說他們在逐條討論的時候幾乎是不讓我們發言剛剛吳宗憲也在這邊他就是一個非常有名的不讓我發言的其中一位趙薇那這邊我也稍微整理了一下就是這個如果大家都說真的有討論的話"},{"start":25918.664,"end":25939.391,"text":"我這邊有整理副婚期在整個45個條文裏面副婚期總共只有發言177個字這個字有點小啦我唸幾句給院長聽你們都是柯建民的小弟啦總統嘉賓叫細寒的來簽名就好了啦這個細寒讓他來做就好了我給院長猜猜看那個細寒是誰"},{"start":25941.872,"end":25943.753,"text":"黃國昌:「我都講得很清楚了,我沒有要補充的。」這就是當時逐條討論的現狀。"},{"start":25959.998,"end":25978.392,"text":"今天他們把所有的字數加起來,包含院會的發言,包含程序的發言,包含質詢的文字,那些都不是真正在討論條文的時候。真正討論條文是4月15號當天。所以我覺得作為立法委員,我們很可恥的地方是,作為這些條文的討論,我們幾乎是沒有發言的。"},{"start":25980.793,"end":25995.766,"text":"發言的內容就像剛剛上面秀出來的狀況但我覺得今天覆議有點不一樣因為今天一個法案要不要覆議是重點在於說行政院可能覺得它至愛難行但是在整個過程當中行政院其實一定有機會說我認為這個法條有問題我認為這個法條至愛難行"},{"start":25999.429,"end":26014.524,"text":"在平常的狀況法案可能都會有院版然後我們有我們的版本可能也有民間的版本大家一起來討論今天這個比較特別立法院的改革不可能會有院版所以行政院能夠做的就是在委員會在協商的時候來發表意見"},{"start":26015.845,"end":26044.124,"text":"所以我覺得這個條文有問題所以如果在這個過程新政院有發表意見的話今天來講這個覆議案可能這個legal ground可能就會有點問題但是呢我這邊就整理了齁在4月15號討論竹條當天鍾嘉斌委員就想說希望司法院副廳長法務部次長來說明主席說我覺得已經沒有這個必要了接下來吳思耀委員也希望列席的官員法務部等等的監察院都能夠來說明"},{"start":26045.745,"end":26057.254,"text":"中央嘉賓委員都逐字稿說希望法務部能夠表示意見都被拒絕了也就是行政院所有的人坐在那一邊當天他們說我覺得這個條文有問題等等之類院長知道他們講了幾次嗎?"},{"start":26062.827,"end":26090.312,"text":"答案是一次都沒有一次都沒有所以從頭到尾發言次數是零次因此行政院在這一個法案完全沒有辦法表達它的空間這一次花東三法的時候至少在協商的時候我還記得我們的韓院長至少也有請交通部長來表達意見甚至有說520之後新的交通部長再來表達意見這就是一個比較正常的程序但是我們在逐條的時候行政官員連表達意見的機會都沒有"},{"start":26092.732,"end":26120.376,"text":"講得比剛剛109次跟177次都還要來得更少更不要講說後來有進入到黨團朝野的協商當時的朝野協商本來已經開始討論條文了第15條15條之一一直開始往下討論結果呢正要讓說在座的行政官員是不是又能夠表達意見的時候呢到最後又沒了理由是因為黃國昌站起來離席了他一離席了黨團協商就沒有辦法繼續下去"},{"start":26121.161,"end":26136.568,"text":"所以從頭到尾我覺得覆議這件事情為什麼那麼的重要就是因為整個的程序裡面我們的行政官員沒有把達意見的空間啊明明法務部可能認為這個法案有問題司法院可能認為這個法案有問題甚至程序都有問題都沒有發表的機會"},{"start":26138.829,"end":26161.66,"text":"所以我必須在這邊嚴正的聲明,就是前面雖然他們討論了很多復議、民意基礎等等之類的,單純就法論法來講,這個復議的提出是非常有正當理由的。不知道院長同不同意嗎?謝謝委員的說明,聽過別人這樣子詳細的說明,我覺得更加的遺憾。在這麼重要的、事關到每一個國人都有可能面臨的案子的時候,"},{"start":26162.031,"end":26190.953,"text":"行政院竟然連一次發言的聲音機會都沒有所以我們一定要把握現在這個覆議案提出的機會好好的跟大院來討論我們也希望藉由這樣的一個溝通也讓國人知道讓其他的立法委員知道在明天投票的時候應該怎麼去投下他們的票那接下來我就要講到這因為今天除了我之外大概前面已經有四十幾位立法委員都發過言那他們的質詢內容讓我覺得非常的奇怪就是他們很習慣不知道跟誰學的都話講一半"},{"start":26191.713,"end":26209.906,"text":"那話都講一半的質詢其實是很難被回答的,也就是說他永遠都只把其中條文的一部分拿出來講,但整體到底是怎麼樣都不說。所以我在這邊把話講一半的情形全部都列在我的簡報上面,譬如說一直提藐視國會罪的刑罰,但完全不提藐視國會罪對人民罰錢這一塊。"},{"start":26212.315,"end":26233.769,"text":"一直說有通過民進黨的版本結果卻不說條文本身有互相的矛盾因為他們硬通過民進黨的版本一直提三場公聽會我相信院長一直聽到三場公聽會其實只有一場跟他們的法案有關係另外兩場完全無關那是民進黨版本的公聽會一直提發言紀錄卻不提質詢跟公聽會根本就不算是逐條的討論"},{"start":26234.89,"end":26261.936,"text":"然後一直喜歡提民進黨散會但問題出在民進黨提散會是為了要擋住4月15號不讓委員不讓官員發言的那一個過程然後一直提國會改革無法這可能是最搞笑的地方因為他們一直提無法但明明只有兩部法律那他們提的國會改革無法是民進黨版本提的國會改革的無法所以到現在我也不知道他們在講什麼一直在提這個國外有舉手表決卻不提人家是坐在位子上表決"},{"start":26262.856,"end":26282.529,"text":"一直說要查弊案結果卻沒有講說條文連弊案兩個字都找不到更不要講說立法院的職責不包含查弊案一直在提國會要調查卻沒有提到這是一個沒有邊界的調查一直在提說它的發動非常的嚴格卻沒有提他們留了一個後門委員會發動的條件非常的寬鬆"},{"start":26284.87,"end":26310.34,"text":"一直提說虛偽陳述很明確卻沒有講說虛偽陳述的範圍他們沒有界定一直說有律師的保障卻又不提這一個主席才可以決定能不能夠有律師一直在提證人可以拒絕回答卻沒有提他們法條忘記設計了告知義務今天早上又再提了47條卻不敢告訴國人本來的47條正當理由可以拒絕結果他們現在把這個刪掉了"},{"start":26311.86,"end":26339.207,"text":"所以太多了還一直提說我們過去提的國會改革卻不提我們通過了20項以上的國會改革最可怕的是一直拿美國法結果美國法的藐視國會第一個不包含資訊那天法務部長又回答道更不要講說美國的範圍非常的嚴格最重要的是我是在美國做過聽證的人在座的立法委員可能也只有我去美國做過聽證美國做聽證有分成邀請的跟強制的他也不告訴大家"},{"start":26339.767,"end":26356.767,"text":"所以有各式各樣的資訊不斷的隱瞞因此到最後連一直提到說行政院很多的單位也可以做調查卻沒有提到這些調查的單位他可能有一些考積﹑有陣風我們今天給立法委員那麼大的權力"},{"start":26357.844,"end":26386.761,"text":"但是立法委員卻沒有人去監督他如果立法委員沒有自律如果立法委員自己沒有節制的措施給他那麼大的權力會變得非常的可怕所以其實我們一直以來國會改革無法真正的無法是我們簡報上的這一些這一些國會改革無法確實有人提出就是民進黨自己我們目前無法已經提了四法的修正那個不知道院長知不知道這四法的修正現在躺在哪裡"},{"start":26388.255,"end":26415.744,"text":"請委員指教還躺在委員會還為什麼會躺在委員會呢我們提到了一些機密就是你今天機密會議你要怎麼做你的洩密的時候該怎麼辦你今天自律的規範有哪些我們提了一堆這些法案目前呢在程序委員會總共被擋了16次然後呢在委員會被排出來5次都被傅坤祺還有羅志強提散會散了5次"},{"start":26416.633,"end":26436.214,"text":"這就是真正的國會改革無法現在在國會的狀況我們想要讓大家知道什麼叫做國會改革無法什麼叫做讓立法委員能夠自律然後才能夠啟動真正的調查我們不反對調查但調查之前要先通過真正的國會改革無法可惜還是被擋到現在沒有辦法通過"},{"start":26445.08,"end":26454.363,"text":"好,謝謝沈伯陽委員發言,謝謝卓院長的說明。接下來,我們請登記第24號翁曉琳委員發言。是有請"},{"start":26474.804,"end":26476.774,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長說明有請卓院長"},{"start":26489.981,"end":26513.615,"text":"今天是賴清德政府施政上任滿月短短一個月之內其實我們就看到已經出現了經濟、國安、能源等等的這些問題根據民意調查基金會顯示賴總統的聲望已經大跌了十個百分點流失了將近兩百萬選民的支持"},{"start":26514.775,"end":26543.046,"text":"有專家學者們呢就看到這個賴政府有專家學者已經有看到這個最近賴政府不聆聽廣大民意的心聲故意提起行政院的復議案挑起政黨對立的表現來看已經可以預見未來賴政府的這個四年執政的情況大概就是一路"},{"start":26544.502,"end":26564.766,"text":"朝野對抗到底一直到下次的競選連任民眾也不用期待賴政府會提出什麼福國利民的政策因為只要是在野黨支持的福利法案民進黨就杯葛為了反對而反對經過這兩天大概48場的"},{"start":26571.555,"end":26598.242,"text":"針對行政院覆議案的委員詢答那我想院長您應該很清楚的知道其實立法院內部對於國會改革法案修法的意見非常兩極高度的對立而這其中本席觀察其實已經早就不是法律之爭而是淪為政黨跟政治之爭了"},{"start":26600.283,"end":26617.442,"text":"當行政院提起覆議案的時候,同時院長您甚至還答應要出席青鳥活動的宣講的時候。我沒有,我沒有答應。秋毅議員,秋毅議員原不是。是事先之後的事情。事先之後的事情。我沒有答應。那不是也是一樣的意思嗎?"},{"start":26618.623,"end":26646.44,"text":"對,那就注定了我認為說在您領導下的行政院院長就不是中華民國的行政院了為什麼?因為已經成為民進黨的行政院是的好,那麼這是本人最近對您的表現的觀察那在這邊我首先想請問院長您認同美國、日本、德國、法國是民主先進的國家嗎?我認為台灣應該是一個民主成熟的國家我是請教您美日德法是不是民主先進的國家?"},{"start":26648.22,"end":26650.381,"text":"各國的憲法設計跟國會制度是不一樣的不能一概而論"},{"start":26671.068,"end":26692.445,"text":"簡單來說您是否支持國會改革的這個法案?完全支持是的在這個30年前您民進黨的先進前輩們像是沈富雄、呂秀蓮、蘇焕智、柯建民等等立法委員那當時他們就已經提出了立法院聽證調查法的草案提出了八大立法原則十大體系制度也研擬了38項的條文他們認為"},{"start":26696.302,"end":26718.056,"text":"國會如果沒有調查權這國會就會是成為跛腳的國會唯有國會這個調查權法制化那麼國會呢才能夠發揮應有的功能那沈富雄委員甚至還提醒所有的立法委員說如果你不願意將自己矮化為立法局就應該要支持立法院聽證調查權"},{"start":26720.194,"end":26742.286,"text":"這幾位前輩今天如果還是立法委員的話他們不會放任這樣的條文內容是嗎?大概除了柯建民吧他已經違反了他自己過去的理念那麼30年過去了那這個立法院呢其實是越做越小原本應該要代表民意的國家最高權力機關在過去8年已經淪為"},{"start":26743.507,"end":26743.767,"text":"並非如此。"},{"start":26764.796,"end":26781.01,"text":"本席認為民意代表他不僅是為民喉舌做人民的代言人他更應該要做好代表人民管家的角色要代表人民監督政府不能夠放任政府官員為非作歹、偷空、出賣國家"},{"start":26784.437,"end":26796.896,"text":"那麼過去八年來其實政府出現了許多重大的弊案像是臺南的光電案、高端內線的交易案、疫苗弊案"},{"start":26798.539,"end":26818.9,"text":"快篩案、數位身份證的採購案等等那還有很多的乾坤法案那其實民眾的心中都有這樣的疑惑到底這些案子真相為何都在司法程序嗎全部都在司法程序嗎那麼民眾的疑惑就是這些真相在哪裡"},{"start":26820.114,"end":26835.89,"text":"他們期待我們立法委員能夠幫他們去釐清相關的這些案件的事實可惜的是就是因為立法院缺乏了相關的這個監督性更積極的監督性權利像是調查聽證權"},{"start":26839.008,"end":26852.724,"text":"處罰藐視國會行為的皆權利所以很難釐清相關的真相那造成了政府濫權自益那在這樣的一個情況之下難道立法院不應該有更強的監督手段來監督政府嗎?"},{"start":26853.424,"end":26878.431,"text":"立法委員當選之後透過這種方式為自己創作本來不應該有的權利那就是民主政治一個最大的挑戰跟不應該接下來我要講就是本席認為其實這次的國會改革法案無論是在程序上和實體上都是符合民主法治原則的那院長你們質疑說這個修法程序說沒有討論沒有民主你們是故意視而不見聽而不聞嗎"},{"start":26880.091,"end":26899.859,"text":"我們很努力的聽,聽不到討論,很努力的看,看不到正義。本席要告訴你就是說,這次修法不是沒有討論,而是各說各話的討論,沒有交集的討論,天馬行空的討論,牛頭不對馬嘴的討論,在這樣的一個討論,是要讓大家談到天荒地老,談到大家高興為止嗎?"},{"start":26901.099,"end":26905.883,"text":"這就是民主的過程不能一討論就條文保留一討論就停止討論但是一開始一個人發言就停止討論這非常態"},{"start":26920.956,"end":26949.684,"text":"是因為這已經討論非常久大家就是有高度的政治對於法條方面的一個歧介接下來就是你們之一舉手表決說你們無從得知各出席委員的決定不是責任政治的表現我很懷疑 院長您知道現在立院已經進入到全影像紀錄的時代了嗎請問您是看不出哪位委員有舉手嗎"},{"start":26951.323,"end":26953.584,"text":"是看不出來嗎?議事公報裏面、議事錄裏面的記錄沒有看到委員的舉手。這難道不對嗎?"},{"start":26976.605,"end":26989.617,"text":"來看看賴慶德總統他打算在這個總統府下面設三個委員會顯然就是要牢牢的掌握行政權做小行政院總統兼任行政院院長讓行政院成為總統府的行政處"},{"start":26990.902,"end":26992.383,"text":"行委員依照事實發言行委員依照事實發言"},{"start":27015.58,"end":27022.883,"text":"接下來我必須說,立法院行使調查權就是為了要維護人民知的權利,而讓人民能夠充分了解政府的運作,查清政府的弊案。那麼針對總統的這些弊案,難道立法院不該去了解實情嗎?"},{"start":27045.828,"end":27046.008,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":27066.86,"end":27070.243,"text":"政府機關懷疑你有知悉持有使用國家關鍵技術的營業秘密的時候他就可以立刻調查所以相形之下其實立法院的調查權之遠不如這些監察還有司法"},{"start":27099.21,"end":27107.478,"text":"報告全院委員會本次會議各黨團推敗的委員均已詢答完畢。謝謝行政院左院長以及各部會首長的列席。"},{"start":27121.107,"end":27132.943,"text":"以及行政院所提之覆議案均以併案審查完略。現在作以下決議提報院會以記名投票表決現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}