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劉主委委員好"},{"start":24.749,"end":46.32,"text":"兩位好,先請教主委,之前我揭發盧欣娜的弊案,持續在追蹤當初花了納稅人15億,說要去併購中國的酒地,搞了半天是被人家反向併購把台灣納稅人跟資本市場的錢拿去中國胡搞瞎搞結果這件事情已經起訴了,一審其實也判出來了"},{"start":47.335,"end":68.71,"text":"但我一直追查我發現很奇怪當初跟陳世修勾結的一個中國人叫做孫陽我一開始揭發弊案就點名他了啦他媽媽是中共的高幹那很奇怪啊這個被台灣通緝的人結果呢結果實際上面還在我們國發基金投資的盧新當董事"},{"start":69.898,"end":96.984,"text":"中國那邊實際上面營運他還是實際的負責人這件事情國發會應該有掌握了吧我上次有提醒過你這個我們有掌握了我們做了三件事情是第一個我們去函這個上市委公司的主管單位金管會請求他們表示意見第二個我們也找了律師然後呢我們也發函給蘆星公司要求撤換孫楊第三個部分我們預防將來撤換有問題我們也進行試骨"},{"start":99.945,"end":116.93,"text":"上一次啦,我當面跟主委提醒這件事啦我提醒完了以後,你們馬上就採取了動作,這件事情我是肯定啦但是我要跟主委講的事情喔,是說我們的國發基金啊,派去爐心的董事啊,是在睡覺嗎?是在睡覺嗎?這個事情要我講,你們才會發現,才會動"},{"start":125.376,"end":137.398,"text":"一個被台灣的法院通緝的中國通緝犯在我們國發基金投資的公司裡面繼續在中國那邊的營運當負責人妥當嗎?適合嗎?台灣人的錢已經被騙得這麼慘了抓不到這個中國人還繼續讓他負責中國那邊的業務錢太多"},{"start":150.404,"end":176.753,"text":"委員這個我們會去了解我們的董事有沒有清楚如果有的話我們會進行董事的更換一個禮拜之內回覆可以嗎沒有問題好謝謝第二個另外一個號稱我們國家投資了30億綠能國家隊不是只有國發基金藥花玻璃也有是希望能夠發展我們太陽能自主的產業"},{"start":178.53,"end":192.203,"text":"那當然投資的績效不好這個我們另外再討論啦投資前已經虧損上百億啊投資後繼續虧損上百億啊當初投資決策怎麼做的這個不是我今天要討論的重點"},{"start":193.752,"end":218.263,"text":"我今天要討論的重點是什麼當初我們扶植這個太陽能國家隊就是希望這些太陽能相關的產品電池能夠在台灣好好生產嘛那要不然怎麼叫太陽能國家隊當初成立了以後這個聯合再生的董事長還在媒體上面大聲疾呼啊說第三地的模組啊傾銷台灣啊將成為國安的隱憂啊"},{"start":221.479,"end":241.042,"text":"大陸的太陽能模組透過東南亞製造稀產地大量傾銷台灣啊這個會影響到台灣的什麼 國安隱憂啊這個是在2023年的時候啊他在媒體上面啊 大聲疾呼的內容啊他這樣大聲疾呼啊來請教一下國發會的主委 贊不贊成"},{"start":243.526,"end":264.358,"text":"我當時我還沒有進入政府但是我們當時如果從扶植台灣太陽能產業的角度來看我是贊成這樣的做法沒錯但是現在就是說計劃與支持之間的差異我們如何去彌補但是我今天要注意我們是善意投資人我今天不是經營之神等一下等一下"},{"start":267.04,"end":290.135,"text":"我今天要跟主委講的事情 不是前面那一趴啦 虧損的部分 那個我說另外再討論啦我先就這件事情來講 現在我看不懂為什麼對外面說的是一套 做的是另外一套 來看下一張我台灣的綠能國家隊 拿台灣人的錢去投資 講紓困可能太沉重"},{"start":291.397,"end":309.305,"text":"他要賣太陽能的電池要賣到土耳其結果竟然是從中國的上海出貨這件事情很奇怪啊是台灣人的太陽能電池先運到中國的上海然後再去土耳其還是直接就在賣中國的電池主委你認為咧"},{"start":311.062,"end":334.693,"text":"委員我跟你報告我不是檢調單位我又不是監理單位我只是投資單位但是我們沒有能力去做檢調的工作但是但是如果您有證據給我我跟上次的承諾一樣我一定去告發我希望你把證據給我這樣違法我一定做我們一件一件來啦現在我要告訴主委的事情是說第一個我們的台灣啊"},{"start":339.622,"end":367.21,"text":"太陽能的國家隊賣到外面的產品結果是在幫誰賣貨在幫中國賣貨這我沒有辦法接受這我沒有辦法接受這個是第一件事情我可以同意你的看法但是委員也請注意喔我之前就已經回應了我們已經在進行事故這是我們目前最好的解決方案但是如果有違法的證據主委我先跟你溝通一件事情啦"},{"start":367.89,"end":392.684,"text":"不要每一次都拿不同層次的事情來處理啦第一個 我今天要跟你表達的態度非常的清楚我看你今天的回應 你顯然是不知道沒有關係 我會站在這邊質詢就是公開提供檢舉資訊給你第二個 我現在要跟主委講的是啊這也不是什麼秘密啊 這已經是公開資訊了"},{"start":394.325,"end":416.48,"text":"這已經是公開資訊了但我懷疑的事情是什麼我懷疑的事情是說我們台灣的太陽能國家隊怎麼會在做這種事情下面還有其他的公開資訊我再給主委看JA Solar是哪一個國家的太陽能模組時間的關係我直接跟主委報告JA Solar是中國的太陽能是中國的太陽能模組"},{"start":423.602,"end":447.884,"text":"這個在經濟部上面全部都有登記那我現在就搞不清楚狀況我們的太陽能國家隊結果成立國家隊 號稱國家隊那個是上引號下引號那是台灣之光 台灣的驕傲結果我們的太陽能國家隊在做的事情是什麼淪為中國太陽能的模組代理商主委你贊成嗎"},{"start":450.061,"end":466.061,"text":"我們當時投資那個聯合再生的時候是希望再創台灣的太陽能產業當時的目的這是我們投資目的那這個結果不是我們樂見的不是你們樂見的嗎我們會去理解如果它違法我們一定會處理"},{"start":467.945,"end":478.789,"text":"現在喔有兩個層次啊一個是主委說剛所講的違法的層次嘛所以我就一直在問嘛我希望國發基金等一下等一下主委請你先聽我說完好兩個層次的問題主委我只是"},{"start":487.542,"end":508.864,"text":"我跟你就是溝通到現在我基本上是蠻尊敬你的對我也是因為我覺得你有擔當所以我是很善意的把這些資訊跟你講是我提醒兩件事情第一個你們那個國發基金派去聯合再生的董事提醒他一下這不是什麼秘密的事情"},{"start":510.075,"end":536.836,"text":"這全部都是公開資訊委員 正常的董事會不會討論到這麼細節的事情呢欸等一下喔但是我們國發基金派去聯合再生的董事他肩負的責任是什麼他肩負的責任董事裡面我們國家派去的董事這一點都不細欸這已經牽涉到你剛剛所講的欸沒有委員我從企業出來的這是不是有維持到國家政策的問題欸我從企業出來的喔董事會會依據董事會議程來討論跟開會"},{"start":539.707,"end":566.156,"text":"他不會去了解到每一個訂單的細節我再跟主委講這個不是訂單的細節這個是公開的資訊今天主委你願意請董事下去這本來就是應該他做的事情但是派去的董事就要有功能他如果能夠發揮功能的話就可以站在國家的立場不要讓這種丟人現眼的事情發生"},{"start":568.001,"end":578.941,"text":"怎麼會是我今天站在這邊質詢這件事情呢我很謝謝 我很佩服委員有這麼多的資訊管道我也謝謝你提供這些資訊給我我們一定會"},{"start":580.287,"end":606.874,"text":"以來做進行必要的處理時間的關係我不影響下一個委員諮詢的時間我只提醒一件事情我只提醒一件事情我們現在在面對的事情大家對習產地這件事情深惡痛絕的時候結果裡面竟然有我們自己國發基金投資的公司深陷其中這件事情對台灣的國際信譽會造成相當大的打擊"},{"start":607.774,"end":635.66,"text":"我希望國發會能夠非常嚴肅的面對這個課題可以嗎我們非常的嚴肅我們也依據上市委員的交代我們已經發文給所有的投資公司目前已經也收回了四十幾份資料我們已經跟您做一個報告我們會持續要求把這些這些廠商提出他們的切結書OK這是我們Best Can Do最後一件事聯合再生在做這件事情為什麼做這件事情一個禮拜之內給我回覆可以嗎"},{"start":637.002,"end":640.412,"text":"我們會去發文了解請他解釋OK好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時20分）謝謝主席！有請國發會主委、經濟部部長。"],["主席：郭部長、劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。先請教主委，之前我揭發如興的弊案且持續在追蹤，當初花了納稅人15億元說要去併購中國的玖地，搞了半天，是被人家反向併購，把臺灣納稅人跟資本市場的錢拿去中國胡搞瞎搞，這件事情已經起訴了，一審其實也宣判了，但我一直追查後發現很奇怪，當初跟陳仕修勾結的一個中國人叫做孫瑒，我一開始揭發弊案就點名他了，他媽媽是中共的高幹，很奇怪啊！這個被臺灣通緝的人結果實際上還在我們國發基金投資的如興當董事，還是中國那邊營運的實際負責人，這件事情國發會應該有掌握了吧？我上次有提醒過你。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們有掌握了，做了三件事情：第一個、我們去函上市公司的主管單位金管會，請求他們表示意見。第二個、我們直接找了律師，然後也發函給如興公司，要求撤換孫瑒。第三個、為了預防將來撤換有問題，我們也進行釋股。"],["黃委員國昌：上一次我當面跟主委提醒這件事，我提醒之後你們馬上就採取了動作，對此我是肯定啦！但是我要跟主委講的是，我們的國發基金派去如興的董事是在睡覺嗎？是在睡覺嗎？這個事情要我講你們才會發現、才會動，一個被臺灣的法院通緝的中國通緝犯，繼續在我們國發基金投資的公司裡擔任中國那邊營運負責人，妥當嗎？適合嗎？臺灣人的錢已經被騙得這麼慘了，抓不到這個中國人，還繼續讓他負責中國那邊的業務？錢太多喔！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會去瞭解我們的董事是否清楚此事，如果有這種事情的話，我們會進行董事的更換。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內回覆，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝！","另外一個問題是號稱我們國家投資了30億的綠能國家隊，不是只有國發基金，耀華玻璃也有，目的是希望能夠發展我們太陽能自主的產業，當然投資的績效不好，投資前已經虧損上百億，投資後繼續虧損上百億，這個我們另外再討論，當初投資決策怎麼做的，不是我今天要討論的重點，我今天要討論的重點是當初我們扶植這個太陽能國家隊，就是希望這些太陽能相關的產品──電池能夠在臺灣好好生產嘛！要不然怎麼叫太陽能國家隊呢！當初成立了以後，這個「聯合再生」的董事長還在媒體上面大聲疾呼說第三地的模組傾銷台灣，將成為國安的隱憂，大陸的太陽能模組透過東南亞製造、洗產地，大量傾銷臺灣，這個會影響到臺灣的國安隱憂，這個是2023年他在媒體上面大聲疾呼的內容，對他這樣的大聲疾呼，請教一下國發會的主委，贊不贊成？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：當時我還沒有進入政府，但是如果從當年扶植臺灣太陽能產業的角度來看，我是贊成這樣的作法。"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在的問題是計畫與支持之間的差異我們如何去彌補跟提升，我們是善意投資人，不是經營之神。"],["黃委員國昌：但是我今天要跟主委講的不是前面那個虧損的部分，我說那個另外再討論，我先就這件事情來講，現在我看不懂，為什麼對外面說的是一套做的是另外一套？我們臺灣的綠能國家隊拿臺灣人的錢去投資，說是紓困可能太沉重，它要將太陽能的電池賣到土耳其，結果竟然是從中國的上海出貨，這件事情很奇怪啊！是臺灣出的太陽能電池先運到中國的上海然後再去土耳其？還是直接就在賣中國的電池？主委你認為咧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我跟你報告，我不是檢調單位也不是監理單位，我只是投資單位，我們沒有能力去做檢調的工作，但是如果您有證據給我，跟上次的承諾一樣，我一定去告發，所以我希望你把證據給我，若有違法，我一定做。"],["黃委員國昌：我們一件一件來，現在我要告訴主委的是第一個、我們臺灣的太陽能國家隊賣到外面的產品是在幫誰賣貨？結果是在幫中國賣貨，這我沒有辦法接受！這我沒有辦法接受！這個是第一件事情。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我可以同意你的看法，但是委員也請注意喔，我之前就已經回應了，我們已經在進行釋股，這是我們目前最好的解決方案，但是如果有違法證據，我們會進行處理。"],["黃委員國昌：主委，我先跟你溝通一件事情，不要每一次都拿不同層次的事情來處理啦！第一個、我今天要跟你表達的態度非常的清楚，我看你今天的回應，你顯然是不知道，這沒有關係，我會站在這邊質詢就是公開提供檢舉資訊給你。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我很謝謝你提供資訊給我。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個、我現在要跟主委講的事也不是什麼秘密，已經是公開的資訊了，但我懷疑的是我們臺灣的太陽能國家隊怎麼會在做這種事情，下面還有其他的公開資訊，我再給主委看看，JA Solar是哪一個國家的太陽能模組？限於時間，我直接跟主委報告，JA Solar是中國的太陽能模組，這個在經濟部上面全部都有登記，那我現在就搞不清楚狀況啦！我們成立了有上引號和下引號號稱「國家隊」的太陽能國家隊，那是臺灣之光！臺灣的驕傲！結果我們的太陽能國家隊在做的事情是什麼？淪為中國太陽能模組的代理商！主委你贊成嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們當時投資「聯合再生」的時候，是希望再創臺灣的太陽能產業，這是我們投資的目的，那這個結果不是我們樂見的。"],["黃委員國昌：不是你們樂見的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會去理解，如果它有違法，我們一定會處理。"],["黃委員國昌：現在有兩個層次，一個是主委剛才講的違法層次，所以我就一直在問嘛！我希望國發基金……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是現在很明顯違反了我們投資的目的，那因為違反我們投資的目的，所以我們也會進行處理。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下！主委，兩個層次的問題，我跟你溝通到現在，基本上我是滿尊敬你的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我也是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我覺得你有擔當，所以我是很善意的把這些資訊告知你。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：非常感謝！"],["黃委員國昌：我提醒你兩件事情，第一個是提醒一下你們國發基金派去聯合再生的董事，這不是什麼秘密的事情，這全部都是公開的資訊。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，正常的董事會不會討論到這麼細節的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下喔！我們國發基金派去聯合再生的董事肩負的責任是什麼？他是董事會裡面我們國家派去的董事，這一點都不細耶！這已經牽涉到你剛剛所講的維持到國家政策的問題耶！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是從企業出來的，董事會依據董事會議程來討論跟開會，他不會去瞭解到每一個訂單的細節。"],["黃委員國昌：我再跟主委講，這個不是訂單的細節……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是我很謝謝您今天這個提醒。"],["黃委員國昌：這是公開的資訊，今天，主委你願意請董事下去，這本來就應該是他做的事情，派去的董事就要有功能嘛！他如果能夠發揮功能的話，就可以站在國家的立場，不要讓這種丟人現眼的事情發生啊！怎麼會是我今天站在這邊質詢這件事情呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我很佩服委員有這麼多的資訊管道，我也謝謝你提供這些資訊給我，我們一定會進行必要的處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我不影響下一個委員質詢的時間，我只提醒一件事情，我只提醒一件事情，我們現在面對的事情，大家對洗產地這件事情深惡痛絕的時候，結果裡面竟然有我們自己國發基金投資的公司深陷其中，這件事情對臺灣的國際信譽會造成相當大的打擊，我希望國發會能夠非常嚴肅地面對這個課題，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們非常地嚴肅，我們也依據上次委員的交代，我們已經發文給所有的投資公司，目前也已經收回了四十幾份資料，我們已經跟您做一個報告，我們會持續要求這些廠商提出他們的切結書。"],["黃委員國昌：OK。最後一件事，聯合再生在做這件事情，為什麼做這件事情？一個禮拜之內給我回覆，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會去發文瞭解，請他解釋。"],["黃委員國昌：OK。好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們現在請陳冠廷委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-9","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","李坤城","鍾佳濱","蔡易餘","張嘉郡","賴士葆","黃國昌","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","廖先翔","黃健豪","陳超明","翁曉玲"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-04-16"],"gazette_id":"1143801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長及財政部首長就「因應國際貿易情勢變化，如何協助\n國內廠商擴大國際市場」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143801_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}