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有請副主委請副主委副主委早今天提出這個海洋科技營運中心行政法人的設置條例草案在你們的書面報告裡面非常清楚的說它會涉及到本土關鍵核心技術的發展那為了要避免有關於國防機密相關的事情能夠"},{"start":32.298,"end":56.13,"text":"不要洩露啦 不要到外國去其他的地方做實驗所以要發展這樣子的一個行政法人 這樣的理解沒有錯吧那按照這個行政法人啊 設置的規定這些行政法人禁用的人員有公務員服務法的適用嗎我們目前沒有 但是我們在未來會有一般查核跟特殊查核那所有禁止的人員都要經過查核"},{"start":57.745,"end":80.617,"text":"我們回答問題具體明確就好了啦第一個沒有公務人員服務法的適用第二個你們在20條裡面有所謂安全查核的機制嗎分為一般查核跟特殊查核一般查核由誰來做機關內部會建立這個安全查核機制對一般查核由誰來做有哪一個部會來做啦 海委會"},{"start":81.994,"end":107.387,"text":"那特殊查核有誰來做一樣是我們機關來做兩個都海委會自己做你們在設置這個辦法的時候有沒有參考國家自動安全研究院設置條例嘛有有有國家自動安全研究院的他一般查核誰做他們的一般查核是自己做特殊查核是監督機關做嘛"},{"start":110.418,"end":124.266,"text":"阿基本的法條的構造要搞清楚嘛我看你們20條就是從這個地方來的嘛所以我現在才問你嘛阿你現在規範以後一般查核誰做我再給你一次機會再講一次一般查核誰做監督機關"},{"start":125.7,"end":150.969,"text":"特殊查核誰做監督機關我們會跟國安單位這邊會再做進一步的一個協調我跟你說你如果是按照國家自通安全研究院來講一般查核是行政法人自己做特殊查核是監督機關做按照你們剛剛的回答未來這個海洋科技的研究中心一般查核跟特殊查核都是海委會要自己做是嗎確定嗎"},{"start":153.109,"end":162.712,"text":"想清楚喔不要到時候相關的執法授權給你們送來立法院以後完全不是這麼回事再給你們一次機會一般查核是不是韓委會做一般沒有 韓委會啦"},{"start":170.53,"end":193.775,"text":"對 一般查核是海委會然後特殊查核也是海委會特殊查核海委會還有我們會跟國安單位再進一步來製作所以你們現在要走的道路跟國家志同安全研究院人員安全查核辦法就不一樣是嗎我們會更嚴格啦更嚴格會更嚴格好 那你們就特殊查核的事項列了哪些特殊查核的事項出來沒有"},{"start":196.42,"end":225.695,"text":"我們現在正在嚴定當中有一個草案國家自動安全研究院裡面特殊查核的事項包不包括你們未來要放在特殊查核的事項裡面有應該都有嘛我要提醒你們注意的事情是說國家自動安全研究院本來設置了這個辦法他已經有問題了啦他交給數位部去做特殊安全查核我看完他特殊安全查核的事項以後我完全看不懂"},{"start":226.966,"end":241.889,"text":"數位部有能力自己做嗎你是不是曾經在動員勘亂時期終止後跟內亂外患經判決確定或通緝有案尚未結案者有密切聯繫有密切聯繫的數位部有辦法自己做我看就不可能吧"},{"start":243.018,"end":268.162,"text":"我看就不可能嘛因為現在喔你們要求的授權範圍20條的規定喔是全部交給你們讓你們自己去訂執法所以我就很擔心啊你們訂的執法能不能用規範的密度夠不夠因為這是你們自己講的嘛會牽涉到國家機密的機敏資訊嘛不要到時候執法授權給你們規範有問題"},{"start":272.833,"end":295.434,"text":"查核的密度有問題搞了一堆應該要接受特殊查核的沒有接受特殊查核成為共諜滲透的破口這件事情海委會授權給你們真的有信心做好嗎還是我們在立法階段的時候應該要考慮把你們20條的規定提升到法律的層次來弄"},{"start":296.748,"end":324.101,"text":"現在韓委會的立場是希望授權給你們你們會負全責還是希望本院在修法的時候把他拉到法律的層面上來請副主委報告委員我們還是希望授權的方式韓委會絕對會把關好所以如果授權給你們到時候沒有做好誰要負責韓委會會負責好非常的好第二個我要提醒你們的事情喔是我一直在追蹤啊我的國軍弟兄的防彈背心啊"},{"start":325.502,"end":348.26,"text":"過去這幾年一堆不肖的廠商在得標從中國進不合格的抗彈纖維部來做我們國軍弟兄的抗彈背心這我看不下去啦自我們國軍弟兄的安危與不顧韓委會也有針對抗彈背心辦招標對不對是嘛 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謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":152,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時29分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：副主委早。今天提出國家海洋科技營運中心行政法人設置條例草案，在你們的書面報告裡面非常清楚地提到，它會涉及到本土關鍵核心技術的發展，為了要避免有關於國防機密相關的事情能夠不要洩漏，不要到外國其他的地方去做實驗，所以要發展這樣的行政法人，這樣的理解沒有錯吧？按照行政法人設置的規定，這些行政法人進用的人員有公務人員服務法的適用嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：目前沒有，但是我們未來會有一般查核和特殊查核，所有的進用人員都要經過查核。"],["黃委員國昌：非常好，我們回答問題具體明確就好了，第一個，沒有公務人員服務法的適用。第二個，你們在第二十條裡面有所謂的安全查核機制，分為一般查核和特殊查核，一般查核由誰來做？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：內部機關會建立這個安全查核機制。"],["黃委員國昌：一般查核由誰來做？由哪一個部會來做？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：海委會。"],["黃委員國昌：特殊查核由誰來做？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：一樣是我們機關來做。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個都海委會自己做？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，會有不同的查核。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在設置這個辦法的時候有沒有參考國家資通安全研究院設置條例？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：有。"],["黃委員國昌：國家資通安全研究院的一般查核是誰做？他們的一般查核是自己做，特殊查核是監督機關做，基本的法條構造要搞清楚，我看你們的第二十條就是從這個地方來的，所以我才問你，現在規範以後一般查核誰做，我再給你一次機會再講一次，一般查核誰做？"],["陳院長璋玲：監督機關。"],["黃委員國昌：特殊查核誰做？"],["陳院長璋玲：監督機關，我們會跟國安單位再做進一步的協調。"],["黃委員國昌：我跟你說，如果是按照國家資通安全研究院的規定，一般查核是行政法人自己做，特殊查核是監督機關做，但是按照你們剛剛的回答，未來海洋科技營運中心的一般查核和特殊查核都是海委會要自己做，是嗎？確定嗎？想清楚喔！不要到時候相關的子法授權給你們，送來立法院以後完全不是這麼回事，再給你們一次機會，一般查核是不是海委會做？"],["陳院長璋玲：一般查核是海委會。"],["黃委員國昌：特殊查核也是海委會？"],["陳院長璋玲：特殊查核是海委會，還有我們會跟國安單位再進一步來制作。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們現在要走的道路，跟國家資通安全研究院人員安全查核辦法就不一樣了，是嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們會更嚴格。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你們就特殊查核事項列了哪些特殊查核的事項出來？"],["陳院長璋玲：我們現在正在研訂當中。"],["黃委員國昌：正在研訂當中？"],["陳院長璋玲：對，有一個草案。"],["黃委員國昌：國家資通安全研究院裡面的特殊查核事項，包括不包括你們未來要放在特殊查核的事項裡面？"],["陳院長璋玲：有。"],["黃委員國昌：應該都有嘛？"],["陳院長璋玲：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我要提醒你們注意的事情是，國家資通安全研究院本來設置的辦法已經有問題了，它交給數位部去做特殊安全查核，我看完它的特殊安全查核事項以後，我完全看不懂，數位部有能力自己做嗎？例如，你是不是曾經在動員戡亂時期終止後，和內亂、外患經判刑確定或通緝有案尚未結案者有密切聯繫，有密切聯繫的，數位部有辦法自己做？我看就不可能嘛！因為現在你們要求的授權範圍，第二十條的規定是全部交給你們，讓你們自己去訂定子法，所以我很擔心你們訂定的子法能不能用、規範的密度夠不夠。因為這是你們自己講的，會牽涉到國家機密的機敏資訊，不要到時候子法授權給你們，規範有問題、查核的密度有問題，搞了一堆應該要接受特殊查核的沒有接受特殊查核，成為共諜滲透的破口，海委會，這件事情授權給你們真的有信心做好嗎？還是我們在立法階段的時候應該要考慮把你們第二十條的規定提升到法律的層次來弄？現在海委會的立場是希望授權給你們，你們會負全責？還是希望本院在修法的時候把它拉到法律的層面上？請副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：報告委員，我們還是希望用授權的方式，海委會絕對會把關。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以如果授權給你們，到時候沒有做好，誰要負責？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：海委會會負責。"],["黃委員國昌：好，非常的好！第二個，我要提醒你們的事情是，我一直在追蹤我們國軍弟兄的防彈背心，過去這幾年，一拖拉庫不肖的廠商在得標，從中國進不合格的抗彈纖維布來做我們國軍弟兄的抗彈背心，這我看不下去啦！置我們國軍弟兄的安危於不顧，海委會也有針對抗彈背心辦招標，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！最近一次得標是哪一家公司？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這部分會後再跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我秀給你看，這是公開資訊，就是聯戰嘛，是吧？這個是公開資訊，這個不是國家機密，我是在政府採購網上面就看到的，是不是聯戰公司？是吧？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是！"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！這家公司有沒有問題？"],["謝副署長慶欽：都是經過政府採購法依規定得標的。"],["黃委員國昌：來、來，我秀給你看。這個沒有得標的廠商攻衛跟聯戰，之前在其他的抗彈背心的時候，已經因為圍標被起訴了，還被停權了，當然它在起訴跟停權以前，剛好在你們得標以後，差一個月，但是這個會讓我很擔心，這兩家在調查局那邊圍標的公司，又跑到海委會那邊，兩家同時出現，結果又是聯戰得標，這件事情海委會或者是海巡署有沒有下去瞭解？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這部分的話，我們政風單位在招標的時候都有參與，我們會持續關注。"],["黃委員國昌：我最後講一件事，不僅僅是持續關注，請特別關注，為什麼我會講這件事情？因為這家聯戰公司不是只有圍標，之前在針對有關於國防部的抗彈背心時，它的供應商從哪裡進布？從中華人民共和國進布，劣質啊！被找到了！現在我在擔心的是什麼？擔心的是你們海巡署給海巡弟兄的那一批抗彈背心，是不是有一樣的問題，這件事情海巡署下去把關、查清楚，好不好？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，我們一定會嚴格把關，我們的規範也有規定，不可以有紅色供應鏈，所以這個在……"],["黃委員國昌：是啦！對啦！國防部也有這個規定，但就有紅色供應鏈嘛！又是同一個廠商嘛！所以我今天才善意的來提醒你們，回去瞭解清楚，一個禮拜之內給我書面報告，可不可以？"],["謝副署長慶欽：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","接下來請沈發惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}