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10:17:54","會議時間":"2025-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】\n【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.392843750000001,"end":8.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.46846875,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.35846875,"end":12.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.302843750000001,"end":15.606593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.129718750000002,"end":31.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.85721875,"end":33.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.16909375,"end":37.915343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.38784375,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.58596875,"end":41.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.98221875,"end":45.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.91409375,"end":47.415968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.90534375,"end":49.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.930343750000006,"end":52.984718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.625968750000006,"end":56.697218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.815343750000004,"end":58.367843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.73909375,"end":60.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.78096875000001,"end":62.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.37971875,"end":65.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.33721875,"end":66.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.73784375000001,"end":70.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.77096875000001,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.23909375000001,"end":73.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.58471875000001,"end":77.53784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.53784375000001,"end":98.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.32596875,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.67471875000001,"end":93.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.50909375,"end":114.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.91596875,"end":121.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.53096875000001,"end":123.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.45471875000001,"end":124.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.22659375,"end":126.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.81284375000001,"end":129.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.49596875,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.69409375,"end":132.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.49534375000002,"end":136.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.29221875000002,"end":138.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.16971875000002,"end":138.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.32159375,"end":139.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.17784375000002,"end":163.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.83471875,"end":150.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.03159375,"end":158.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.41471875000002,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.43784375,"end":182.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.95596875,"end":186.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.58409375000002,"end":187.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.17034375,"end":188.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.41909375,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.53284375,"end":191.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.78159375,"end":192.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.18221875,"end":194.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.00471875000002,"end":196.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.84409375,"end":198.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.66659375,"end":204.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.26471875000001,"end":206.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.12534375,"end":214.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.98471875,"end":215.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.03534375,"end":215.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.05221875,"end":215.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.38971875000001,"end":218.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.92096875000001,"end":217.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.12346875,"end":218.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.98409375000003,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.03471875000002,"end":219.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.20346875,"end":219.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.33846875,"end":219.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.59159375000002,"end":219.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.65909375,"end":222.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.81034375000002,"end":231.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.43784375,"end":244.65096875},{"speake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副主委今天我們討論到國家海洋科技條例裡面的草案這是新的嘛因為是新的 現在來討論行政法律的問題現在我就是覺得修這個法"},{"start":39.62,"end":41.661,"text":"我是非常贊同,剛才我們董事會說責任歸屬在哪裡,我認為你慢慢走走因為我認為在這裡要討論的,就是可以啦,這個法則"},{"start":60.854,"end":62.818,"text":"真的有到位啦因為我覺得不要說開支付出的心血就看多少在這裡啦所以你對剛才"},{"start":74.939,"end":98.456,"text":"妳有再要補充什麼嗎 來 副主委謝謝委員 那的確還有會是責無旁貸啦我們也要把這個責任擔負起來那這個船模實驗室跟國家調查團隊可以建造完成之後整個國家的這種調查整個調查的量能啦還有國家關鍵技術的這個核心技術的一些提升等等的確就可以有非常大的一個注意"},{"start":99.537,"end":104.323,"text":"因為 副主委 我想要跟你講到這個問題因為本席也有提到在這裡面 我的意見可能跟你們的意見比較不一樣因為我裡面的條例的時候 我問我們的外國人"},{"start":116.988,"end":137.545,"text":"或是正經在中國的 或是澳門的港澳的都不能擔任我們裡面的黨官署副主席你認為本席會有多少希望可以這個法我提議的這個你覺得認為如何來"},{"start":140.385,"end":163.659,"text":"根本報告這個部分事實上我們在規劃未來的這個董監事還有一些執行人員的時候事實上也是朝這個方向朝這個方向對對對只是說因為我們的整個立法的體力我們有參照到行政法人法還有其他的行政法人的立法體力那未來我們會在那個安全查核的面向上面來阻絕這個部分對啦"},{"start":164.039,"end":179.747,"text":"因為我覺得你如果做檔案書裡面有很多重要的文句裡面的資料他都可以看 還可以了解因為我覺得我們要想這個法律學院也要讓他到位不是說想一想 如果不去做 不去解決也有可能會再去擔任"},{"start":193.234,"end":202.19,"text":"這個節目這是有可能的你如果沒有用心去了解的時候我說的這個問題有可能會產生"},{"start":205.322,"end":218.709,"text":"你覺得未來在執法裡面我們也會去做相關的規範那陸港澳人民本來就不可能進入我們這個國家海洋科技運營中心因為依照它本身的條例的規範有一些對啦 條例的規範 但是未來有可能我們要"},{"start":223.991,"end":227.633,"text":"不然我們就要想啦 不然想了以後 怎麼會這樣 這樣就太慢了在這裏面的編制當中 因為本省澳 當你帶你的資料來看的時候你有在營運中心裏面 有編制裏面的零元 一百的嘛一百的營運處裏面 占最快八十多 七十九個啦"},{"start":252.99,"end":257.473,"text":"未來你們有可能再去拯救這些人嗎?未來的營運狀況,初期我們現在就是100個人初期跟未來,我再問你,再說我是說你未來有可能還是不會再拯救營運狀態因為我就是本社會來問這個因為我們85年,今年要移送"},{"start":283.038,"end":290.244,"text":"是非常嚴峻,所以說你有想,因為要把行為做好,新的一定要有成果所以你沒煩惱,改成果你就要成果,我也支持支持這個遺症的時候,我們要相當的考慮,看要怎樣去解決這個問題,還要緊"},{"start":306.428,"end":309.832,"text":"不然你說 香港本來就不夠 香港不夠情感 這樣你設這個要做什麼 再多多設"},{"start":314.79,"end":322.775,"text":"我們都很精密的有去估算然後當然要讓這個中心能夠做非常好的營運所以人力需求上都有估算"},{"start":345.03,"end":350.275,"text":"這樣也非常不應該這樣做下去的行為也不會努力也不會好事尤其我們這個法規說要保護台灣的安全中華民國不是親切不負而已在這裡本身跟你說這個問題跟人員的情感"},{"start":368.021,"end":382.048,"text":"有外國籍的可以擔任什麼 去考慮 去了解這個問題因為我認為 你如果有資料的時候早期還要去給別人 更何況他可以擔任這個 早期才可以資料出來這樣就海融融了沒有讓這些人認知好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":397,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時11分）主席，請副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：你好，副主委。今天我們討論國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案，這是新的嘛，因為是新的才會現在討論行政法人的問題。對於修這個法，我是非常贊同，剛才我們的同事在問責任歸屬在哪裡，我覺得你有點害怕，我們在這裡討論，如果這個法通過了，真的有到位，我覺得不要說花錢，光是在這裡付出心血就看有多少了。對於剛才的質詢，你有要補充什麼嗎？副主委。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：謝謝委員，的確海委會是責無旁貸，我們要把這個責任擔負起來，船模實驗室跟國家調查船隊建造完成之後，對於整個國家的調查量能，還有國家關鍵核心技術的提升等等，的確可以有非常大的助益。"],["王委員美惠：副主委，我為什麼會跟你說到這個問題，因為本席也有提案，但我的意見可能跟你們的意見比較不一樣，因為我所提的條例是希望外國籍或是曾經在中國、港、澳的都不能擔任裡面的董監事。副主委，對於本席的擔憂以及針對本法提議的部分，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：跟委員報告，這個部分我們在規劃未來的董監事，還有一些執行人員的時候，事實上也是朝這個方向。"],["王委員美惠：喔，朝這個方向？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對，只是因為整個立法體例，我們有參照到行政法人法，還有其他的行政法人立法體例，未來我們會在安全查核的面向上阻絕這個部分。"],["王委員美惠：對啦！因為董監事在裡面有很多重要資料都可以看得到，又可以了解。要修這個法就希望讓它比較到位，不是只有想一想，如果不去做、不去解決，也有可能會被納入擔任這個職務，這是有可能的，如果沒有用心去了解，我所說的這個問題是有可能會產生的，你覺得呢？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：未來在子法裡面，我們也會去做相關的規範，陸港澳人民本來就不可能進入我們國家海洋科技營運中心，因為依照它本身條例的規範……"],["王委員美惠：對，條例的規範，不過我們要在事情發生前就先設想，不要在事情發生之後才說怎麼會這樣，這樣就太慢了。在這個編制當中，因為本席後來有索取你們的資料來看，營運中心編制的人員共計100人，其中營運處就占79人，將近80人，未來你們有可能再去增加人員嗎？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：會視未來的營運狀況，初期現在就是100人。"],["王委員美惠：那我就多問、多講了，我是說你未來有沒有可能再增加？"],["吳副主任委員美紅：要視營運狀態跟需求狀況。"],["王委員美惠：營運狀態。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：對。"],["王委員美惠：副主委，本席為何要問這個？因為今年審115年的預算非常的嚴峻，要把工作做好又是新的營運中心，一定要增加人力，所以你不用擔心，該增加就要增加，我們也會支持，只是在審核預算的時候要多加考量如何解決人力問題比較重要，不然本來人力就不夠又不敢增加，這樣新設立營運中心要幹嘛，不就多設立了。"],["吳副主任委員美紅：我們都有很精密的估算，當然要讓營運中心能夠有非常好的營運，所以人力需求上都有估算。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得業務當中的任何事情，不要說你們本來要10個人，現在因為各界在關注提出一些問題，你們不但沒有增加人力，還讓差不多需要15人的工作叫10人來做，樣也非常不應該，這樣工作起來也不會有效率、也沒辦法做得好，尤其我們立法目的是要保護臺灣、中華民國的安全，不是隨隨便便設立而已。所以本席跟你說的人員增加以及外國籍人員可以擔任怎樣的職務，你們要認真去了解、去考慮這個問題，因為我覺得你們的重要資料都可能被竊取了，更何況如果讓他擔任職務，他伺機將資料竊取出來，這樣就糟糕了！"],["吳副主任委員美紅：不會，我們沒有讓這些人任職，謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員義川代）：謝謝王美惠委員。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":318,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-36,15-1","speakers":["莊瑞雄","蘇巧慧","陳培瑜","黃國昌","沈發惠","麥玉珍","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","林倩綺","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","王義川","羅智強","高金素梅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1143901_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}