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謝謝主席我要請林主委請林信德主委何副主委請何慶生副主委陳委員 張委員 李委員還有姚主任秘書 林執行長"},{"start":26.281,"end":51.412,"text":"陳天志委員 張文煥委員 李延年委員姚承安主任秘書 林佩達執行長好 主委我一向對我們貴單位我非常支持但是我會非常嚴謹的監督我非常在乎的"},{"start":52.915,"end":81.468,"text":"就是領導團結的問題所以為什麼我也請三位委員副主委還有執行長還有主任秘書這一整個運安會裡面主導就是主委但是撫蔽的就是在座的幾位領導人所以我必須要跟主委還有在座幾位的重要幹部"},{"start":83.086,"end":103.204,"text":"一定要提醒一句話團結就是力量所以我請幾位上來主要沒惡意而是呼籲要團結但是我必須要提醒一件事情我們這個單位"},{"start":106.221,"end":119.868,"text":"是一個行政專業單位跟一般行政不一樣喔你們是專業單位喔為什麼你們的前嫌就是國家運輸安全調查委員會為什麼要掛國家"},{"start":122.082,"end":150.312,"text":"是超越行政是超越任何一個部會而是什麼只要有國家兩制通常就是獨立行使單位所以我不希望你有政治力的介入這一點我想主委你有什麼看法我來快兩年我都沒有感覺有政治力的介入而且是獨立專業的好"},{"start":152.811,"end":170.984,"text":"我本委員會我每一次在執行到處聽到就是我們不讓你解凍請問主委我們應安會解凍的東西送到立法院來了沒有我們已經準備好那行政院他會統籌辦理啊"},{"start":172.97,"end":198.163,"text":"是統籌辦理 因為我也知道啦行政院不要你們個別送嘛要統一才送嘛實體下很多部會首長就跟我講他們也想要送啊過去傳統的東西只要委員會通過了以後大概就沒有問題啊當然因為這次的審查預算 我承認"},{"start":199.758,"end":222.614,"text":"就殺到你們要害嘛 一個就是特資會 一個就是業務會嘛其實特資會是對你們傷的最嚴重但是這叫做監督啊 要提醒大家不是你們沒有錢就不能做事啊公務人員本來就是這樣啊 不是嗎 主委所以我還是要呼籲"},{"start":223.955,"end":237.607,"text":"應安會該解凍的盡快解凍你送來我身為那個召委我都願意叫你們送的那我就感覺到很奇怪我們交通"},{"start":238.925,"end":256.534,"text":"委員會裡面所有人我都呼籲他趕快送到現在 召委拜託你們送全世界找不到這樣欸你們為什麼一天到晚就是一定要什麼統一啊或什麼這個叫做什麼 政治力的介入"},{"start":260.025,"end":270.275,"text":"這個立法院要你們解凍你們不解凍你們就只有一句話當初你們要我們解凍為什麼要當初要幫我們凍其實這本來就審查預算裡面的一個"},{"start":277.296,"end":300.972,"text":"方法這解凍的問題就是你把問題說清楚講明白那就可以解凍就可以使用啊沒有3啊你們現在都混搖不清啊解凍跟3億算是不一樣的所以主委我為什麼要特別去提你不要有政治力的介入這個是我要呼籲你當然啦"},{"start":302.884,"end":309.178,"text":"你這個單位雖然小單位但是權力之大可是你們都沒有應用"},{"start":310.599,"end":332.924,"text":"該調查的還是要調查所以主委不要跟他們這跟大罷免無關啊該送的還是要送這是我以重心長特別啊給主委一個建議還有在台上的重要幹部你們不要以為你們是副主委就無權利你們不要以為你們是委員你們就無權利不是的"},{"start":333.964,"end":347.179,"text":"應該要給主委適當的方式替他們分憂解勞這是最主要的一個問題不是嗎所以我還是希望啦主委解凍的問題盡快"},{"start":349.977,"end":367.911,"text":"獨立單位有獨立單位的形式這個你們特別要去爭取啦好不好好來另外我還是要談啦主委我們的缺額在擴大人才流失是非常頭痛的"},{"start":368.51,"end":394.703,"text":"因為這個單位啊我講快一點沒有這個基本概念是無華來這個單位的啦你這個不是一般公務人員隨隨便便調來那最起碼的話一定要有他的專業嘛不是航空專長就是公路啊或者車禍有一些問題所以主委為什麼現在切額擴大到底人補進來了沒有"},{"start":396.733,"end":407.818,"text":"我們的缺額就是正常的人員流動像到目前為止近三年我們的人員流動有進有出大概是目前淨流出大概三個人"},{"start":409.241,"end":423.827,"text":"還好啊還好是但是在我看來一點都不好對不對人眼流動會有流電會有流動因為你這個單位流動一個人你就要為以籌謀因為你們是專業一個單位"},{"start":426.508,"end":444.795,"text":"你們這個人才是不好找的啦所以為什麼我把請這個在座幾位上來就是撫蔽你之外還有一點肯定你們這些都是專業那在我們這個底下這些組長也都是專業的哪一個不是專業的"},{"start":446.395,"end":469.905,"text":"所以我還是要你不要把它當成這個流動力的問題就是你們業務的問題要特別去注意還有一點就是你們現在很奇怪你們提出來的建議跟你們提出來的這些改進措施來 主委"},{"start":471.019,"end":499.112,"text":"那為什麼你們都不理你們為什麼沒有啊 我們我們這個改善協議的完成率越來越高而且這個被促進的單位他們如果有困難我們我們有幾個機制譬如說我們每三個月就會有一個計協調會議那每半年還會有一個檢討會議那今年的3月11號12號我們還特別加開市場會議好 那我請問一下台鐵為什麼你們就政這麼多項完成率會這麼低"},{"start":500.478,"end":528.691,"text":"因為他需要很多時間對嘛所以我跟你講這個只要行政院長我坦白講啦你這個單位行政院長如果不支持你當然但是流布話嘛所以這些牽涉到安全的問題拜託主委要去爭取該監督的還是要監督該追蹤的還是要監督所以在這個部分我還是建議你們要提出來除了除了"},{"start":529.671,"end":559.231,"text":"建議改善之外你們根本就沒有監督機制嘛所以我建議我們在座幾位回去稍微研究一下我雖然我雖然是提出改進但是我後面有氣無力啊我沒有法的依據去追蹤去要求他改進啊處處都要所屬單位長官去督促這個叫做間接的監督這個效力不好的"},{"start":559.791,"end":574.979,"text":"要我們應安會有直接監督的力道所以我建議這個部分該修法的該修辦法或者該修法去把它放進去的這個是要特別這個特別我建議啦"},{"start":575.879,"end":592.979,"text":"那最後我還是期待啦流動力的問題還有跟這些政治力的結合問題我還是希望主委最後我還是呼籲團結就是力量雖然我們是小單位但是我們的責任重大"},{"start":594.111,"end":615.871,"text":"責任重大所以最後我給你建議的就是說你如果覺得後續監督改進的力道不足就要修改法令去把它放進去這樣的話可能在整個行政機關的效益會更好這樣的話也會達到我們應安會的一切"},{"start":616.872,"end":626.993,"text":"保護所有的這些交通安全是有所幫助的主委這點我給你建議我希望你參考一下好不好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時28分）謝謝主席，我要請林主委、何副主委、陳委員、張委員、李委員、姚主任秘書、林執行長。"],["主席：請林信得主委、何慶生副主委、陳天賜委員、張文環委員、李延年委員、姚辰安主任秘書、林沛達執行長。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["林委員國成：主委，我一向對貴單位非常支持，但是我會非常嚴謹的監督，我非常在乎的就是領導、團結的問題，所以為什麼我也請三位委員、副主委、執行長還有主任秘書上來，整個運安會裡面，主導的就是主委，但是輔弼的就是在座的幾位領導人，所以我必須跟主委還有在座幾位重要幹部提醒一句話，團結就是力量！"],["林主任委員信得：一定的！一定的！"],["林委員國成：我請幾位上來並沒有惡意，而是呼籲要團結。但是我必須要提醒一件事情，你們這個單位是一個專業行政單位，跟一般行政不一樣，你們是專業單位，你們的全銜是國家運輸安全調查委員會，為什麼前面要掛「國家」？因為是超越一般行政，是超越任何一個部會，只要有「國家」兩個字，通常就是獨立行使職權的單位，所以我不希望你有政治力的介入，主委，你對這一點有什麼看法？"],["林主任委員信得：我來快兩年了，我都沒有感覺到有政治力的介入，完全是獨立專業的。"],["林委員國成：好，我每一次在本委員會質詢，到處聽到的就是我們不讓你解凍，請問主委，運安會的解凍案送到立法院了沒有？"],["林主任委員信得：我們已經準備好了，行政院會統籌辦理。"],["林委員國成：是統籌辦理，我也知道，因為行政院不要你們個別送，要統一送。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["林委員國成：有很多部會首長私底下跟我講，他們也想要送，根據過去的傳統，只要委員會通過以後，大概就沒有問題了。當然在這一次審查預算，我承認就殺到你們的要害，一個就是特支費，一個就是業務費，其實特支費對你們傷得最嚴重，但是這叫做監督，就是要提醒大家，不是你們沒有錢就不能做事啊！主委，公務人員本來就是這樣啊！不是嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員國成：所以我還是要呼籲，運安會該解凍的要儘快解凍，你把解凍案送過來，我身為召委，我都願意叫你們送了，那我就覺得很奇怪，對我們交通委員會審查的所有單位，我都呼籲要趕快送，召委拜託你們送，全世界找不到這樣的，你們為什麼一天到晚就是一定要統一送來？這個叫做什麼？就是政治力的介入，立法院要幫你們解凍，你們不把解凍案送來，你們只有講一句話：為什麼當初要凍我們的預算？其實這本來就是審查預算裡面的一個方法，就是你針對委員提的問題說清楚、講明白，那就可以解凍、就可以使用了，並沒有刪啊！可是你們現在都混淆不清，凍結跟刪預算是不一樣的。主委，我為什麼要特別提醒你不要有政治力的介入，我是要呼籲你，你這個單位雖然是小單位，權力卻很大，可是你們都沒有運用，該調查的還是要調查。主委，這跟大罷免無關，該送的還是要送，我特別語重心長的給主委一個建議，還有這幾位在臺上的重要幹部，你們不要以為你們是副主委就無權力，你們不要以為你們是委員就無權力，不是這樣的，應該要以適當的方式替主委分憂解勞，這是最主要的一個問題，不是嗎？主委，我還是希望解凍的問題儘快解決，獨立單位要獨立的行使，所以你們要特別去爭取，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員國成：另外，我還是要談一點，就是你們的缺額再擴大，人才流失是非常頭痛的問題，如果沒有這方面的基本概念，是無法來這個單位的，不是隨隨便便把一般公務人員調來就可以勝任，最起碼一定要有專業，不是有航空方面的專長，就是對公路或者車禍問題有研究。主委，為什麼現在缺額會擴大，到底人補進來了沒有？"],["林主任委員信得：我們就是正常的人員流動，近3年我們的人員有進也有出，到目前淨流出大概是3個人，還好啊！"],["林委員國成：還好嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員國成：但是在我看來，這樣一點都不好，主委，人員會有流動，你這個單位有流動1個人，你就要未雨綢繆，因為你們是專業的單位，這方面的人才是不好找的啦！為什麼我請這幾位上來？除了要他們輔弼你之外，還有就是肯定你們這些專業的人，坐在底下的這些組長也都是專業的，哪一個人不是專業的？所以你不要認為這個只是流動率的問題，這就是你們業務的問題，所以要特別去注意。還有一點，你們現在很奇怪，主委，對你們提出來的建議跟你們提出來的這些改進措施，為什麼那些單位都不理你們？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有啊！我們改善建議的完成率越來越高，而且受建議的單位如果有困難，我們也有幾個機制，譬如說，我們每3個月就會有一個季協調會議，每半年還會有一個檢討會議，我們在今年3月11號、12號還特別加開4場會議。"],["林委員國成：好，那我請問一下，為什麼你們糾正臺鐵這麼多項，完成率卻這麼低？"],["林主任委員信得：因為它需要很多時間，不但要編預算，組織也要調整。"],["林委員國成：對嘛！我坦白講，行政院長如果不支持你這個單位，那當然就是牛步化嘛！這些是牽涉到安全的問題，所以拜託主委要去爭取，該監督的還是要監督，該追蹤的還是要追蹤。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員國成：對這個部分我還是建議你們要提出來，除了建議改善之外，你們根本就沒有監督機制嘛！所以我建議在座幾位回去稍微研究一下，因為雖然有提出改進的建議，但是後面有氣無力啊！也沒有法的依據去追蹤、去要求他改進啊！處處都要所屬單位長官去督促，這個叫做間接的監督，這個成效是不好的，應該要讓運安會有直接監督的力道，所以我建議對這個部分應該要修法或修辦法把它放進去，我特別提出這個建議。","最後，我還是期待你們解決流動率的問題還有政治力介入的問題，主委，最後我還是要呼籲，團結就是力量，雖然我們是小單位，但是我們的責任重大，責任非常重大，所以我要建議你，如果你覺得後續監督改進的力道不足，就要修改法令把它放進去，這樣可能在整個行政機關的效益會更好，對於運安會保護所有交通安全也有所幫助，主委，這一點是我給你的建議，我希望你參考一下好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員國成）：接下來請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-7","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","魯明哲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","林俊憲","徐富癸","廖先翔","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","黃健豪","葉元之","張啓楷"],"page_start":421,"meetingDate":["2025-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1143901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143901_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143901_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}